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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Seasonal greetings from Marf and Ratty who’ll be returning

SystemSystem Posts: 12,293
edited 2015 27 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Seasonal greetings from Marf and Ratty who’ll be returning in the New Year

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  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    first?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2015 27
    Tim_B said:

    taffys said:

    ''The baggage we don't know about belongs to Clinton - the Clinton Global Initiative and Clinton Foundation. Charity Navigator will not touch them and there are issues with foreign donations when Hillary was SOS and Bill made speeches abroad.''

    Given Bill Clinton's relations with female workers whilst in government, I fail to see how Hillary can cast Trump as anti-female and get away with it.

    I am completely unable to see any connection or relevance between what I said and your reply. I did not mention or infer anything about females or Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    I agree. Bah humbug!
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    I agree. Bah humbug!
    I agree also - there were 3 or 4 active discussion points on the last thread, now needlessly killed off stone dead.
    Bye everyone.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
    Well the rat would probably make a better Labour leader than Corbyn, true!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,877
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    A loss of 200 would be terrible, but it would probably be explained away.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    Unless Labour lose Islington the Corbynistas will always delude themselves into thinking he is carrying them in triumph, it is how Labour MPs start to see events that will be key
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I wish the Leave campaign would point out the stupidity of the EU directive on dredging rivers and the consequences thereof, rainfall is not especially high, rivers are overflowing because the EU won't allow them to be dredged.

    It's unlikely we'll see that on the BBC so the better informed on here might like to discuss.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FPT

    Mr Surbiton said, "Including 2013, 9 of the 10 warmest years in the 134-year period of record have occurred in the 21st century. Only one year during the 20th century—1998—was warmer than 2013."

    To which I would respond, "Yes and?"

    For most of the 11th and 12th centuries England was warm but regularly lashed with torrential rain storms, and no doubt lots of floods, which caused frequent famine. At the start of the thirteenth century the climate changed and temperatures in England became milder, the weather wetter but without the tempests of the previous 200 years. As a result the English vineyards disappeared, but so did the incidence of famine. In fact England suffered no famine between 1220 and 1315 and as a result had the fastest period of population growth and general prosperity in our history.

    No doubt there were people in the early 1200s writing about this terrible climate change and how it was wiping out traditional industries and would undoubtedly lead to the destruction of civilization if not the planet - the English character has not changed that much in 800 years.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    Unless Labour lose Islington the Corbynistas will always delude themselves into thinking he is carrying them in triumph, it is how Labour MPs start to see events that will be key
    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    used up all your festive spirit then
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    I agree. Bah humbug!
    I agree also - there were 3 or 4 active discussion points on the last thread, now needlessly killed off stone dead.
    Bye everyone.
    It was boring , picture of ratty far superior. When you are down to trying to justify that Benn has any talent whatsover it is way beyond time to pull the plug.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
    Well the rat would probably make a better Labour leader than Corbyn, true!
    certainly streets ahead of Benn
  • Bob_JonesBob_Jones Posts: 2
    Best news of the year. 2016 will be better with Marf.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
    Well the rat would probably make a better Labour leader than Corbyn, true!
    certainly streets ahead of Benn
    Benn is not designed to appeal to dyed in the wool nats
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    Unless Labour lose Islington the Corbynistas will always delude themselves into thinking he is carrying them in triumph, it is how Labour MPs start to see events that will be key
    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)
    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    It's kafkaesque - Ratty represents the mainstream Labour party, waiting for external stimulus, and the bauble represents the shiny distracting object that is Jeremy Corbyn.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
    Well the rat would probably make a better Labour leader than Corbyn, true!
    certainly streets ahead of Benn
    Benn is not designed to appeal to dyed in the wool nats
    Without any reference to Scottish voting , he is another Labour nonentity, a champagne socialist who will bend to any view , no principles and less talent.
    Useless and a guarantee that labour are doomed for at least a generation till they get this kind of rubbish out of the system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    used up all your festive spirit then
    Festive Spirit or not and Boxing Day finished yesterday, there are limits to how much you can discuss the significance of a rat and a Christmas decoration
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    used up all your festive spirit then
    Festive Spirit or not and Boxing Day finished yesterday, there are limits to how much you can discuss the significance of a rat and a Christmas decoration
    Why not just continue the previous discussions, the whole point is to welcome back Maff and that is a good thing for pb.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    To cheer up the socialists?
    Well the rat would probably make a better Labour leader than Corbyn, true!
    certainly streets ahead of Benn
    Benn is not designed to appeal to dyed in the wool nats
    Without any reference to Scottish voting , he is another Labour nonentity, a champagne socialist who will bend to any view , no principles and less talent.
    Useless and a guarantee that labour are doomed for at least a generation till they get this kind of rubbish out of the system.
    His speech in the Commons alone shows he certainly has talent and he is certainly less of a champagne socialist than Salmond and actually lives a relatively austere lifestyle.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
    Both useless whingers , they will never amount to anything, too lily livered and lacking principles. They did not even have enough backbone to refuse cabinet jobs, their greed was more important than their principles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    used up all your festive spirit then
    Festive Spirit or not and Boxing Day finished yesterday, there are limits to how much you can discuss the significance of a rat and a Christmas decoration
    Why not just continue the previous discussions, the whole point is to welcome back Maff and that is a good thing for pb.
    Can do that at the bottom of a thread
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    Unless Labour lose Islington the Corbynistas will always delude themselves into thinking he is carrying them in triumph, it is how Labour MPs start to see events that will be key
    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)
    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members
    Only because (1) potential leadership candidates held back so as for only Howard to be nominated, (2) MPs did likewise, avoiding a token gesture candidate, (3) the rules provided for a two-stage process, with a no-confidence vote and then a leadership election, and (4) having been no confidenced, the rules also prevented IDS from standing.

    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
    Both useless whingers , they will never amount to anything, too lily livered and lacking principles. They did not even have enough backbone to refuse cabinet jobs, their greed was more important than their principles.
    Both stuck to their principles on ISIS despite Corbyn's opposition and these were Shadow Cabinet jobs which carry no extra pay, not Cabinet jobs
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Hillary Clinton has accused Trump of having "a penchant for sexism".

    Given her husband's record I think that's unwise.

    This is in response to Trump saying that Bill had the same penchant after Hillary said she'd 'let him out' to campaign.

    This will run and run.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:


    I think predictions of Labour disaster will run ahead of reality and allow him to beat expectations. His supporters will say, "Jeremy is awesome! He kept most of our seats and this was his first try."

    Yet he won't keep most of the seats, Rallings and Thrasher are already predicting he will lose at least 200!
    FPT: They are defending 1200, I think, so R&T are predicting they will hold most.

    Of course, in reality it's absurd to describe any loss of local seats as anything other than terrible for the Opposition, but I'm starting to think that no one will go bankrupt by overestimating the delusions of Corbynistas.
    Unless Labour lose Islington the Corbynistas will always delude themselves into thinking he is carrying them in triumph, it is how Labour MPs start to see events that will be key
    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)
    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members
    Only because (1) potential leadership candidates held back so as for only Howard to be nominated, (2) MPs did likewise, avoiding a token gesture candidate, (3) the rules provided for a two-stage process, with a no-confidence vote and then a leadership election, and (4) having been no confidenced, the rules also prevented IDS from standing.

    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate him again. In any case as any challenge would only be launched if Labour lost a seat to UKIP in a by-election in all probability and continued to trail in the polls Labour MPs are not going to go on a kamikaze mission and give Corbyn the nominations he needs to scrape over the line!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
    Both useless whingers , they will never amount to anything, too lily livered and lacking principles. They did not even have enough backbone to refuse cabinet jobs, their greed was more important than their principles.
    Greed, Mr. G.? Surely not - the shadow cabinet are not paid posts. Lust I think is the word you are after. Lust for the verisimilitude of power, for being on TV, of having people think their opinions matter, and maybe a few first class jollies to foreign climes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
    Both useless whingers , they will never amount to anything, too lily livered and lacking principles. They did not even have enough backbone to refuse cabinet jobs, their greed was more important than their principles.
    Do the Shadow Cabinet get paid? I thought only the Leader of the Opposition got an actual salary.

    Regardless, this reshuffle is a good sign. Corbyn needs a team that actually backs him, and that will insulates those who are demoted from any fallout that, one would expect, will result when his united team does even worse (if they do well, then heavens help us), so good for Labour too. They will have been loyal (to a point - they were willing to serve out of tribal loyalty at least), but shoved aside anyway, unlike those who refused to serve.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    :cough:

    Maybe Dr Sven Palmer will kneel alongside some Aussies (or Ossies)...?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    She could become another focus of dissent on the backbenches but as her voting record is similar to Benn's they represent the same strand of opinion
    Both useless whingers , they will never amount to anything, too lily livered and lacking principles. They did not even have enough backbone to refuse cabinet jobs, their greed was more important than their principles.
    Greed, Mr. G.? Surely not - the shadow cabinet are not paid posts. Lust I think is the word you are after. Lust for the verisimilitude of power, for being on TV, of having people think their opinions matter, and maybe a few first class jollies to foreign climes.
    Afternoon Hurst, you could call it lust or future greed, they are looking to feather their own nests. Neither have shown any talent , I doubt they could run a bath. The dire lack of any talent is the real Labour issue rather than Corbyn , he is just the symptom of how poor the remainder of them really are.
    Hard to see Labour doing anything till thy get rid of these two and their ilk, it is unfortunate that Corbyn is not up to a cull of the dead wood. Now is the time to do it and hope some new talent surfaces by the next election, not as if they have much to beat.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Good afternoon. Does anyone have the median vote shares from the general election as opposed to the mean shares which are the ones usually quoted?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @HurstLlama

    the verisimilitude of power

    almost Churchillian. A wonderful phrase.

    Rolls off the tongue even more than Applebee's Out House Chicken.

    It's actually Brew House Chicken, but that doesn't sound as good.

    But man it tastes great!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    Hello all - I don't see why accepting humiliation is a good thing. Saying it will position them better for the future strikes me as delusional, frankly.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,693
    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Cyclefree said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    Hello all - I don't see why accepting humiliation is a good thing. Saying it will position them better for the future strikes me as delusional, frankly.
    After Heseltine left the frontbench it was Major who ended up succeeding Thatcher, Howard replaced IDS from the frontbench etc
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Cyclefree said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    Fair enough. It does make a certain sense for Benn to play along.

    Not sure about the Eagles. Maria, in particular, seems to have had one humiliation after another visited on her and would actually gain in stature by saying "Enough!"
    Hello all - I don't see why accepting humiliation is a good thing. Saying it will position them better for the future strikes me as delusional, frankly.
    There's a difference between being a son of a bitch and OUR son of a bitch.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Jeremy Corbyn 'to protect Caroline Lucas in pact with Greens'

    Labour leader refuses to rule out an election deal to allow the Green Party MP to stand unopposed by Labour in Brighton Pavilion at the 2020 election"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12069821/Jeremy-Corbyn-to-protect-Caroline-Lucas-in-pact-with-Greens.html
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members
    Only because (1) potential leadership candidates held back so as for only Howard to be nominated, (2) MPs did likewise, avoiding a token gesture candidate, (3) the rules provided for a two-stage process, with a no-confidence vote and then a leadership election, and (4) having been no confidenced, the rules also prevented IDS from standing.

    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate him again. In any case as any challenge would only be launched if Labour lost a seat to UKIP in a by-election in all probability and continued to trail in the polls Labour MPs are not going to go on a kamikaze mission and give Corbyn the nominations he needs to scrape over the line!
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opinions), I'd be surprised their numbers couldn't be made up. Two main reasons: firstly, some will say that he needs to be seen to be beaten and that as such the membership has to remove him (or put another way, it's invalid for MPs to remove him without the assent of the membership); secondly, some will view favourably the change in spirit in the party that his leadership has brought about. Add to that that some will feel activist pressure re nominations in the constituencies, particularly where there will or may be new boundaries, and I suspect Corbyn would get the numbers.

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Tim_B said:

    Hillary Clinton has accused Trump of having "a penchant for sexism".

    Given her husband's record I think that's unwise.

    This is in response to Trump saying that Bill had the same penchant after Hillary said she'd 'let him out' to campaign.

    This will run and run.

    Bill Clinton is not running for President. Hillary stood by "loyally" because she had worked out the pros and cons. Feminists would be angry but they have nowhere to go but quite a large number of middle American women did and will empathise with her.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate him again. In any case as any challenge would only be launched if Labour lost a seat to UKIP in a by-election in all probability and continued to trail in the polls Labour MPs are not going to go on a kamikaze mission and give Corbyn the nominations he needs to scrape over the line!
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opinions), I'd be surprised their numbers couldn't be made up. Two main reasons: firstly, some will say that he needs to be seen to be beaten and that as such the membership has to remove him (or put another way, it's invalid for MPs to remove him without the assent of the membership); secondly, some will view favourably the change in spirit in the party that his leadership has brought about. Add to that that some will feel activist pressure re nominations in the constituencies, particularly where there will or may be new boundaries, and I suspect Corbyn would get the numbers.

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Rubio leads Clinton in the RealClearPolitics polling averages:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2015 27
    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    Hillary Clinton has accused Trump of having "a penchant for sexism".

    Given her husband's record I think that's unwise.

    This is in response to Trump saying that Bill had the same penchant after Hillary said she'd 'let him out' to campaign.

    This will run and run.

    Bill Clinton is not running for President. Hillary stood by "loyally" because she had worked out the pros and cons. Feminists would be angry but they have nowhere to go but quite a large number of middle American women did and will empathise with her.
    That may well be true - but it will run and run nonetheless.

    Try and be less biased and more neutral.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    AndyJS said:

    Rubio leads Clinton in the RealClearPolitics polling averages:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com

    Yes, but Rubio trails both Trump and Cruz with GOP voters, who are now acting like Labour members in putting ideology before electability
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opinions), I'd be surprised their numbers couldn't be made up. Two main reasons: firstly, some will say that he needs to be seen to be beaten and that as such the membership has to remove him (or put another way, it's invalid for MPs to remove him without the assent of the membership); secondly, some will view favourably the change in spirit in the party that his leadership has brought about. Add to that that some will feel activist pressure re nominations in the constituencies, particularly where there will or may be new boundaries, and I suspect Corbyn would get the numbers.

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
    Today yes, if and when Labour starts losing by-elections to UKIP it may be a different story altogether
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members
    Only because (1) potential leadership candidates held back so as for only Howard to be nominated, (2) MPs did likewise, avoiding a token gesture candidate, (3) the rules provided for a two-stage process, with a no-confidence vote and then a leadership election, and (4) having been no confidenced, the rules also prevented IDS from standing.

    The situation with Labour is complete
    Ken Clarke and Dav
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opinions), I'd be surprised their numbers couldn't be made up. Two main reasons: firstly, some will say that he needs to be seen to be beaten and that as such the membership has to remove him (or put another way, it's invalid for MPs to remove him without the assent of the membership); secondly, some will view favourably the change in spirit in the party that his leadership has brought about. Add to that that some will feel activist pressure re nominations in the constituencies, particularly where there will or may be new boundaries, and I suspect Corbyn would get the numbers.

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    The membership is now made up largely of Trotskyite entryists, even if Corbyn only looks likely to hold Islington they will still back him so there is no point even launching a challenge if existing members are consulted. If Labour starts losing seats to UKIP there is no way that can be looked upon favourably and activisits opinion will have to be disregarded and while activists may be able to spin a poor performance away MPs are not turkeys voting for Christmas and are not going to vote to lose their own seats! After all it was when the Tories came third in the Brent East by-election that Tory backbenchers finally turned on IDS!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opinions), I'd be surprised their numbers couldn't be made up. Two main reasons: firstly, some will say that he needs to be seen to be beaten and that as such the membership has to remove him (or put another way, it's invalid for MPs to remove him without the assent of the membership); secondly, some will view favourably the change in spirit in the party that his leadership has brought about. Add to that that some will feel activist pressure re nominations in the constituencies, particularly where there will or may be new boundaries, and I suspect Corbyn would get the numbers.

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
    Today yes, if and when Labour starts losing by-elections to UKIP it may be a different story altogether
    To UKIP ? Where did that come from ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    edited 2015 27
    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
    Well technically not as you post frequently but I am sure there is a site for 'Rats at Christmas' if you are so inclined!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Tim_B said:

    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    Hillary Clinton has accused Trump of having "a penchant for sexism".

    Given her husband's record I think that's unwise.

    This is in response to Trump saying that Bill had the same penchant after Hillary said she'd 'let him out' to campaign.

    This will run and run.

    Bill Clinton is not running for President. Hillary stood by "loyally" because she had worked out the pros and cons. Feminists would be angry but they have nowhere to go but quite a large number of middle American women did and will empathise with her.
    That may well be true - but it will run and run nonetheless.

    Try and be less biased and more neutral.
    Tim

    If it's down to Trump or Hillary who would you vote for?

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
    Well technically not as you post frequently but I am sure there is a site for 'Rats at Christmas' if you are so inclined!
    It's my evil twin Skippy who posts frequently.

    My German Shepherd Heidi takes care of the rodents but she is a sweetheart.

    I am completely innocent.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opin

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
    Today yes, if and when Labour starts losing by-elections to UKIP it may be a different story altogether
    To UKIP ? Where did that come from ?
    Just as the the Iraq War saw the LDs win several by-elections so I think UKIP will start to win by-elections as EU ref begins to loom
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
    Well technically not as you post frequently but I am sure there is a site for 'Rats at Christmas' if you are so inclined!
    It's my evil twin Skippy who posts frequently.

    My German Shepherd Heidi takes care of the rodents but she is a sweetheart.

    I am completely innocent.
    Will take your word for it
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    Obviously not, but they could at least try to do any future building in a better manner and get experts to look at how they can alleviate/remedy some of the worst hit areas for the future.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142
    edited 2015 27

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    Churchill technically came back as First Lord of the Admiralty before he replaced Chamberlain as Tory leader and PM
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    So many people ignoring the obvious here, we need to dredge the rivers but it's against EU law.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:



    Afternoon Hurst, you could call it lust or future greed, they are looking to feather their own nests. Neither have shown any talent , I doubt they could run a bath. The dire lack of any talent is the real Labour issue rather than Corbyn , he is just the symptom of how poor the remainder of them really are.
    Hard to see Labour doing anything till thy get rid of these two and their ilk, it is unfortunate that Corbyn is not up to a cull of the dead wood. Now is the time to do it and hope some new talent surfaces by the next election, not as if they have much to beat.

    The dire lack of talent is not something that afflicts Labour alone. The actual government Front Bench, never mind its shadow, does not exactly sparkle.

    On a happy note, my boy bought me a bottle of the 16 year-old Jura for Christmas. I have had the Jura before but not that one - I have to say I am impressed (and me an Islay fan of many years standing).
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opin

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
    Today yes, if and when Labour starts losing by-elections to UKIP it may be a different story altogether
    To UKIP ? Where did that come from ?
    Just as the the Iraq War saw the LDs win several by-elections so I think UKIP will start to win by-elections as EU ref begins to loom
    Not a chance. I'm a committed kipper but as it stands we don't have an earthly of winning a by election. No resources, no infrastructure, no money, we've even lost our message.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    That is exactly the point. Some shadow cabinet members believe that because Corbyn's position in the PLP was so weak they could say and do whatever they wanted to. Things are changing now. Corbyn needs to sack a few just to establish authority.

    There was nothing wrong with what Benn said in his speech as long as it was from the back benches [ like Margaret Beckett ( Jackson ) - people forget she started from the very far left ].

    Whatever you may think of Corbyn, his position on the bombing of Syria is supported by most of the party and the PLP. I cannot see how these people can remain in the shadow cabinet and espouse collective responsibility.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    So many people ignoring the obvious here, we need to dredge the rivers but it's against EU law.
    Please be specific about which "EU law" would be being broken.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    Unless the membership changes its view the MPs are relatively impotent, though? (I'm eliding "Corbynistas" with "membership" which is dodgy, I confess.)

    Tory MPs replaced IDS without even consulting the members


    The situation with Labour is completely different. If there were a challenge to Corbyn, it's probable that he would go on the ballot without the need for nominations given the make-up of the NEC who would rule on the interpretation; and even if he were required to actively gain the nominations, he'd probably get them for much the same reason that he did first time round (and also because MPs would now be under more pressure from activists in their party to ensure he was on the ballot / they got their say).
    Ken Clarke and David Davis at one point did consider running but eventually held back, Clarke partly because he lacked the numbers. As the recent Times report showed Labour lawyers have said that if a challenger was nominated and Corbyn failed to get the nominations himself he needed he would not get on the ballot, former nominees like Field and Beckett have said they will not nominate
    We may have to disagree on this. While some MPs like Beckett and Field wouldn't nominate him (assuming he does need nominations - lawyers are as economists in giving different opin

    As for Labour's performance, yes, a challenge will have to be based on poor results but results can always be viewed in more than one way and underperformance explained away by local factors or whatever - it's all too easy for the wish to father the thought.
    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.
    Today yes, if and when Labour starts losing by-elections to UKIP it may be a different story altogether
    To UKIP ? Where did that come from ?
    Just as the the Iraq War saw the LDs win several by-elections so I think UKIP will start to win by-elections as EU ref begins to loom
    Not a chance. I'm a committed kipper but as it stands we don't have an earthly of winning a by election. No resources, no infrastructure, no money, we've even lost our message.
    It is all about publicity and having the right white working class seat come up, once EU ref comes forward the news will be nothing but Europe and immigration
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue

    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    That is exactly the point. Some shadow cabinet members believe that because Corbyn's position in the PLP was so weak they could say and do whatever they wanted to. Things are changing now. Corbyn needs to sack a few just to establish authority.

    There was nothing wrong with what Benn said in his speech as long as it was from the back benches [ like Margaret Beckett ( Jackson ) - people forget she started from the very far left ].

    Whatever you may think of Corbyn, his position on the bombing of Syria is supported by most of the party and the PLP. I cannot see how these people can remain in the shadow cabinet and espouse collective responsibility.
    Because Labour made a positive choice to suspend collective responsibility for that vote.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    What we need to do now is find ways to mitigate what we have already done and stop doing any more of it. Replacing roads and car parks with porous materials that allow water to flow away is a start. Reinstating upland woodland and water meadows which allow controlled flooding will also help. Banning building on flood plains and anywhere that will damage the drainage system. Insisting landowners and authorities maintain water courses and drainage under the threat of prosecution.

    Basically stop blaming the weather and start taking respopnsibility for our own actins and dealing with what we have done.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    So many people ignoring the obvious here, we need to dredge the rivers but it's against EU law.
    Please be specific about which "EU law" would be being broken.

    The EU also forces us to build houses in river valleys, build giant car parks, tarmac roads.....the EU is the culprit ! Also, they forced us to cut flood defences expenditure.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
    Well technically not as you post frequently but I am sure there is a site for 'Rats at Christmas' if you are so inclined!
    It's my evil twin Skippy who posts frequently.

    My German Shepherd Heidi takes care of the rodents but she is a sweetheart.

    I am completely innocent.
    Will take your word for it
    A very wise decision. Of course Heidi is the prognosticating canine with a great record of success.

    For those who bet on the NFL there are reports today that Peyton Manning has done PEDs with HGH. No details yet.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    Churchill technically came back as First Lord of the Admiralty before he replaced Chamberlain as Tory leader and PM
    He did, but had Chamberlain not invited him back, he'd still probably have become PM in 1940, though his actions in the Norway debate would have been interesting given the potential conflict of interest!
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    So many people ignoring the obvious here, we need to dredge the rivers but it's against EU law.
    Please be specific about which "EU law" would be being broken.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12046126/Letters-EU-dredging-rules-make-effective-flood-prevention-in-Britain-impossible.html
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The EU is also liable for the rains. Hell, it is so powerful that we should stay in it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 27
    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good picture but not quite sure why we needed to move to a new thread about a rat and a bauble?

    Harsh truth is that "we" under the line are an insignificant part of PB's readership.
    Yes well I doubt even 'lurkers' come to this site specifically to see drawings of festive rodents, well drawn though they no doubt are!!
    I am a lurker and I love festive rodents and baubles!
    Well technically not as you post frequently but I am sure there is a site for 'Rats at Christmas' if you are so inclined!
    It's my evil twin Skippy who posts frequently.

    My German Shepherd Heidi takes care of the rodents but she is a sweetheart.

    I am completely innocent.
    Will take your word for it
    A very wise decision. Of course Heidi is the prognosticating canine with a great record of success.

    For those who bet on the NFL there are reports today that Peyton Manning has done PEDs with HGH. No details yet.
    An NFL players on PEDs surely not....I am shocked I tell you, shocked...This is nearly as shocking as finding out A-Rod was on the juice..

    Documentary is here...It is an Al Jazeera special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJRPxmTuxoI
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    malcolmg said:



    Afternoon Hurst, you could call it lust or future greed, they are looking to feather their own nests. Neither have shown any talent , I doubt they could run a bath. The dire lack of any talent is the real Labour issue rather than Corbyn , he is just the symptom of how poor the remainder of them really are.
    Hard to see Labour doing anything till thy get rid of these two and their ilk, it is unfortunate that Corbyn is not up to a cull of the dead wood. Now is the time to do it and hope some new talent surfaces by the next election, not as if they have much to beat.

    The dire lack of talent is not something that afflicts Labour alone. The actual government Front Bench, never mind its shadow, does not exactly sparkle.

    On a happy note, my boy bought me a bottle of the 16 year-old Jura for Christmas. I have had the Jura before but not that one - I have to say I am impressed (and me an Islay fan of many years standing).
    Hurst, sounds very pleasant. I got a set of Arran 12 year old miniatures which look nice. It has not been going long, mid 90's , so will be interesting to try.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    FPT


    malcolmg said:

    "Too much concrete and tarmac nowadays and building has been done on floodplains etc , usual politicians that have caused the issues looking for short term gains."

    Absolutely. The torrential rain in Cumbria earlier in the month was a record but only by a few percent. The real issue is exactly as you say. Building on both flood plain and water run off areas, reducing tree cover which allows soils to wash away and failing to maintain water courses - both by government, local authorities and private individuals.

    Yes, that has certainly contributed. But we have what we have. Are we going to demolish these houses ? Are we going to uncarpet the roads and car parks ?
    So many people ignoring the obvious here, we need to dredge the rivers but it's against EU law.
    Please be specific about which "EU law" would be being broken.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12046126/Letters-EU-dredging-rules-make-effective-flood-prevention-in-Britain-impossible.html
    Nowhere does it say that we cannot dredge rivers. We saw pictures of the Somerset levels being dredged in the summer due to political pressure - complete waste of time.

    No one seems to ask the obvious question. For example, why was the maintenance of the pumps in York stopped ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    surbiton said:

    The EU is also liable for the rains. Hell, it is so powerful that we should stay in it.
    Bit of a silly post. The point is the EU required us to stop dredging rivers, something that had been done for centuries.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    surbiton said:

    The EU is also liable for the rains. Hell, it is so powerful that we should stay in it.
    Why are you choosing to ignore the dredging issue, rainfall isn't excessively high.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited 2015 27
    40 years ago I filmed the pub in York where the water was being pumped out ...it was exactly the same then.. same pub.. same spot at the top of the street
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue

    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    That is exactly the point. Some shadow cabinet members believe that because Corbyn's position in the PLP was so weak they could say and do whatever they wanted to. Things are changing now. Corbyn needs to sack a few just to establish authority.

    There was nothing wrong with what Benn said in his speech as long as it was from the back benches [ like Margaret Beckett ( Jackson ) - people forget she started from the very far left ].

    Whatever you may think of Corbyn, his position on the bombing of Syria is supported by most of the party and the PLP. I cannot see how these people can remain in the shadow cabinet and espouse collective responsibility.
    Because Labour made a positive choice to suspend collective responsibility for that vote.
    That's correct and Corbyn was wrong to do that. Now he can tell the b*stards to f^^^ off !
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 27

    surbiton said:

    The EU is also liable for the rains. Hell, it is so powerful that we should stay in it.
    Why are you choosing to ignore the dredging issue, rainfall isn't excessively high.

    Because the budget has been cut. The reference you put up does not say that dredging is banned. If it was, there could not have been any dredging in the Somerset Levels.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-29851345

    I take it that was against EU law ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,142

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    Because a frontbench role, no matter what it is, gives him the platform and seniority to remain the natural alternative to Corbyn, something the backbenches does not
    Not necessarily. Heseltine was able to effectively act as the obvious counter to Thatcher out of office, and to speak on any subject he chose, whereas a cabinet (or shadow cabinet) minister is constrained by the nature of their brief, as well as by the demands of collective responsibility. Churchill in the 1930s is an even better example. Holding office is useful but isn't necessary if the individual in question has already ticked that box.
    Churchill technically came back as First Lord of the Admiralty before he replaced Chamberlain as Tory leader and PM
    He did, but had Chamberlain not invited him back, he'd still probably have become PM in 1940, though his actions in the Norway debate would have been interesting given the potential conflict of interest!
    Perhaps though less certain
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    AndyJS said:

    surbiton said:

    The EU is also liable for the rains. Hell, it is so powerful that we should stay in it.
    Bit of a silly post. The point is the EU required us to stop dredging rivers, something that had been done for centuries.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-29851345

    So this did not happen ? Because you are a blinkered anti-EU person.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    I posted something very similar last night.

    As far as I can see, if Benn goes, he goes all the way down.

    One reason I'm somewhat sceptical there will be a very long knife is that Corbyn seems short of talent - Labour aren't bursting with it anyway, but to find "serious" politicians who are also sympathetic to his cause (even if not in 100% agreement with it) is tricky. Finding politicians of public stature will be even harder for him, and with the Foreign brief, and a couple of others, I think that's important if he wants his party to look like a genuine and credible government-in-waiting. I don't think the office maketh the stature - Diane Abbott would be widely publicly perceived as overpromoted if she was installed as Benn's replacement (and even should he think that's unfair on her, it ought to be a consideration that weighs on Corbyn's mind).
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited 2015 27
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.

    I think that is exactly right. One way or another, Corbyn will be on the ballot if he wants to be.

    Someone - I think Stephen Bush - summed this up the other day:

    * The only candidate who can replace Corbyn against his will is one who can beat Corbyn in a ballot of the membership.

    * There is no such candidate in the PLP.

    Conclusion: Corbyn will go when he chooses. Concerning when that will be, I thought the most significant line in the recent Independent article that trails these sackings was one that said that, after Oldham, Corbyn thinks he can win the election and become Prime Minister. I think we can safely say:

    * While he thinks that he won't resign.

    * He won't stop thinking that easily. That kind of thought is hard to dislodge.

    For which reason, I think Corbyn will neither resign nor be ousted before 2020.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    HYUFD said:

    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    I think if Corbyn sacks Benn and the Eagles, he will be fully justified. If they want to carp from the side lines, they should have done what Cooper and 4% Kendall did - not join the shadow cabinet.

    Corbyn is stronger now than 3 months back. He does not need Been and the Eagles.

    I doubt he will sack them just move them and it is a sign of a weak leader that he cannot include capable candidates in his top team because they do not agree with him on every issue
    I agree about that too, though I'm not sure they will accept demotion. What's in it for them?

    But certainly it's part of the art of political leadership to keep your best performers onside.
    If Benn is sensible and he is, he will accept a demotion which means he remains in the top team and the frontline and can present himself as loyal while the very act of demotion after his brilliant Commons speech makes him the natural successor if there is ever a move against Corbyn
    If he accepts a demotion once, what's to stop Corbyn from demoting him again later? He has clearly been a success in his job and if Corbyn wants to move him down for tactical reasons then he'd be better going into exile on the backbenches, from where he could more effectively critique the government without needing to pay lipservice to collective responsibility.
    I posted something very similar last night.

    As far as I can see, if Benn goes, he goes all the way down.

    One reason I'm somewhat sceptical there will be a very long knife is that Corbyn seems short of talent - Labour aren't bursting with it anyway, but to find "serious" politicians who are also sympathetic to his cause (even if not in 100% agreement with it) is tricky. Finding politicians of public stature will be even harder for him, and with the Foreign brief, and a couple of others, I think that's important if he wants his party to look like a genuine and credible government-in-waiting. I don't think the office maketh the stature - Diane Abbott would be widely publicly perceived as overpromoted if she was installed as Benn's replacement (and even should he think that's unfair on her, it ought to be a consideration that weighs on Corbyn's mind).
    Diane Abbott is not a mug. She maybe unprincipled but that is not a stain on most politicians.
    If she was, then Andrew Neil made a big mistake using her for years. Education wise, she went to Cambridge - even though that in itself is not important.

    What exactly has Benn done ?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Harry Cole
    Two conflicting press releases about correct response to floods in two hours from Shadow Chancellor and shadow Defra.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Wanderer said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn will get the numbers needed to get the nominations. The situation is totally different now. Many of the current shadow cabinet and junior position holders will nominate him for a start. I reckon he will get 60 - 80 nominations today.

    I think that is exactly right. One way or another, Corbyn will be on the ballot if he wants to be.

    Someone - I think Stephen Bush - summed this up the other day:

    * The only candidate who can replace Corbyn against his will is one who can beat Corbyn in a ballot of the membership.

    * There is no such candidate in the PLP.

    Conclusion: Corbyn will go when he chooses. Concerning when that will be, I thought the most significant line in the recent Independent article that trails these sackings was one that said that, after Oldham, Corbyn thinks he can win the election and become Prime Minister. I think we can safely say:

    * While he thinks that he won't resign.

    * He won't stop thinking that easily. That kind of thought is hard to dislodge.

    For which reason, I think Corbyn will neither resign nor be ousted before 2020.
    Corbyn will go after 2020. Labour will lose heavily but there is a chink of light. It only needs a couple of points to unseat the Tories majority - and, Labour does not need to do it.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    I posted something very similar last night.

    As far as I can see, if Benn goes, he goes all the way down.

    One reason I'm somewhat sceptical there will be a very long knife is that Corbyn seems short of talent - Labour aren't bursting with it anyway, but to find "serious" politicians who are also sympathetic to his cause (even if not in 100% agreement with it) is tricky. Finding politicians of public stature will be even harder for him, and with the Foreign brief, and a couple of others, I think that's important if he wants his party to look like a genuine and credible government-in-waiting. I don't think the office maketh the stature - Diane Abbott would be widely publicly perceived as overpromoted if she was installed as Benn's replacement (and even should he think that's unfair on her, it ought to be a consideration that weighs on Corbyn's mind).

    I love the cautious understatement in your post. Yes, the Labour benches are not bursting with talent.

    Thing is, Corbyn's assessment may differ from ours. If he thought John McDonnell could be a credible shadow chancellor then why not Diane Abbott as shadow foreign secretary?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Harry Cole
    Two conflicting press releases about correct response to floods in two hours from Shadow Chancellor and shadow Defra.

    CCHQ working on a Sunday ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    edited 2015 27

    Not a chance. I'm a committed kipper but as it stands we don't have an earthly of winning a by election. No resources, no infrastructure, no money, we've even lost our message.

    Re-reading Rod's thread from May 2014, the references to the UKIP position that was going to get them multiple MPs holding the balance of power this year was interesting. UKIP believed only they could force an In/Out Referendum. Being proven wrong that Cameron would never, ever deliver that referendum really does seem to have taken the wind out of UKIP's sails.

This discussion has been closed.