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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pollster with the best record in Iowa has Cruz taking 1

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pollster with the best record in Iowa has Cruz taking 10% lead in the 1st state to decide

As was discussed on the last post Ann Selzer polling for the state’s leading newspaper has over the years built up an enviable reputation. Her approach reaches those most likely to vote in the caucuses.

Read the full story here


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    Also First!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,064
    Is this third or fourth? Anyway, that looks like a big movement in Cruz' favour. Largely at the expense of Carson and minor candidates. Otherwise known as "Anyone but Trump!", so could be like snow in springtime!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    PB works in mysterious ways... oooOOooo
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sample size 400...

    Not worthy of a thread.

    No single poll is.
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    Iowa was never going to be particularly favourable to Trump and indeed, going by the 'change' figures, Trump was about ten points behind in second in the last poll too, though Cruz is a more formidable candidate than Carson. That said, Trump is also up, so it looks like a poll that you can take what you want from it.

    As mentioned in the previous thread, Iowa has a poor record of picking nominees compared with NH. I'd keep an eye on the polls there as the best indicator of how the race will pan out. All the same, Cruz is coming good and should remain a buy. I don't think that yet makes Trump a sell though.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    RodCrosby said:

    Sample size 400...

    Not worthy of a thread.

    No single poll is.

    That's a valid point. It may have been useful that Trump has shifted a log to find crawling insects that agree with him, nevertheless, as much as I would like to see the Republican loonies self-destruct, I do hope that this is Trump's watershed.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    In Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971), the SCOTUS was unanimous in both the opinion and dissent(s) that people like Cruz are naturalized citizens.

    J BLACKMUN, delivering the opinion of the Court
    'Mr. Justice Gray has observed that the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment was "declaratory of existing rights, and affirmative of existing law," United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. at 169 U. S. 688. Then follows a most significant sentence:
    "But it [the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment] has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents; and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress, in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization."
    Thus, at long last, there emerged an express constitutional definition of citizenship. .... The definition obviously did not apply to any acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of an American parent. That type, and any other not covered by the Fourteenth Amendment, was necessarily left to proper congressional action.

    'Our National Legislature indulged the foreign-born child with presumptive citizenship... rather than to deny him citizenship outright, as concededly it had the power to do, and relegate the child, if he desired American citizenship, to the more arduous requirements of the usual naturalization process....
    The proper emphasis is on what the statute permits him to gain from the possible starting point of noncitizenship, not on what he claims to lose from the possible starting point of full citizenship to which he has no constitutional right in the first place.'
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mike is certainly correct that the Selzer polls have a good track record save for 2012 when the performance was more marginal.

    One other note of caution should also applied to my mind. Will we see shy Trumpsters and what is the scale of this potential GOP phenomenon?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    The significance is not the poll itself, which could be an outlier since polls seem all over the place in the US on their small samples, but that it helps Cruz establish himself as the anti-Trump candidate. That could be a winning advantage, but let's see if it persists.

    An odd development here in Russia - the Government is (unlike Belarus) a signatory to the European Court of Justice, and has quietly been paying compensation to a string of complainants (several thousand, apparently) on humans and business rights issues. According to the (English-lanugage pro-business and critical of the government), they've now got fed up, but rather than withdraw altogether they've passed a law allowing the Constitutional Court to rule in specific cases that Russian law overrides the ECHR. This, says the paper, enables them to ignore major decisions that they don't fancy, but without the Government having to do it themselves - hey, Ministers can say, it's the court's decision, what can one do?

    This is what Eurosceptics want in Britain, but I'd understood that it is itself inconsistent with the ECHR. No? (Genuine question)

    Incidentally, another example of what seems to me the severely undervalued rouble (though Luckyguy doesn't agree) - petrol is 30p/litre...
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Incidentally, another example of what seems to me the severely undervalued rouble (though Luckyguy doesn't agree) - petrol is 30p/litre...

    Seems a mighty long way to go from Broxtowe to fill up the car. Is that part of the Paris Climate Change deal ?

    I think we should be told.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    edited December 2015

    The significance is not the poll itself, which could be an outlier since polls seem all over the place in the US on their small samples, but that it helps Cruz establish himself as the anti-Trump candidate. That could be a winning advantage, but let's see if it persists.

    An odd development here in Russia - the Government is (unlike Belarus) a signatory to the European Court of Justice, and has quietly been paying compensation to a string of complainants (several thousand, apparently) on humans and business rights issues. According to the (English-lanugage pro-business and critical of the government), they've now got fed up, but rather than withdraw altogether they've passed a law allowing the Constitutional Court to rule in specific cases that Russian law overrides the ECHR. This, says the paper, enables them to ignore major decisions that they don't fancy, but without the Government having to do it themselves - hey, Ministers can say, it's the court's decision, what can one do?

    This is what Eurosceptics want in Britain, but I'd understood that it is itself inconsistent with the ECHR. No? (Genuine question)

    Incidentally, another example of what seems to me the severely undervalued rouble (though Luckyguy doesn't agree) - petrol is 30p/litre...

    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited December 2015

    Is this third or fourth? Anyway, that looks like a big movement in Cruz' favour. Largely at the expense of Carson and minor candidates. Otherwise known as "Anyone but Trump!", so could be like snow in springtime!

    Surely the loser in Cruz's rise is Rubio, who was last week's ABT candidate.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2015
    You should be pleased if his negotiations are crap, the less change the bette for out.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Completely denied and if you bothered to read the article you'd see the headline is misleading.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    As someone not that up on US politics, is Iowa a key state or just a nice-to-win?
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    felix said:

    Completely denied and if you bothered to read the article you'd see the headline is misleading.
    Variations on this appear in other Sunday papers.

    Of course if it's been denied by people close to Cameron it can't be true.

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    It looks like the R&A are taking Turnberry off the Open roster.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Felix,

    "Completely denied."

    So the four years is a red line? Interesting.

    I thought the four "demands" were somewhat feeble, but it's good to know that Cameron will not back down. "No ifs, no buts" - a man of his word.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    felix said:

    Completely denied and if you bothered to read the article you'd see the headline is misleading.
    Variations on this appear in other Sunday papers.

    Of course if it's been denied by people close to Cameron it can't be true.

    So that leaves him three statements of the obvious for his renegotiation

    1) More competitiveness in the EU - which everyone wants
    2) More than one currency in the EU - like saying more than one language, there is, and its here to stay
    3) No tie in to the words "every closer union" - but still subject to the federalist ECJ

    In otherwords nothing.
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    The significance is not the poll itself, which could be an outlier since polls seem all over the place in the US on their small samples, but that it helps Cruz establish himself as the anti-Trump candidate. That could be a winning advantage, but let's see if it persists.

    An odd development here in Russia - the Government is (unlike Belarus) a signatory to the European Court of Justice, and has quietly been paying compensation to a string of complainants (several thousand, apparently) on humans and business rights issues. According to the (English-lanugage pro-business and critical of the government), they've now got fed up, but rather than withdraw altogether they've passed a law allowing the Constitutional Court to rule in specific cases that Russian law overrides the ECHR. This, says the paper, enables them to ignore major decisions that they don't fancy, but without the Government having to do it themselves - hey, Ministers can say, it's the court's decision, what can one do?

    This is what Eurosceptics want in Britain, but I'd understood that it is itself inconsistent with the ECHR. No? (Genuine question)

    Incidentally, another example of what seems to me the severely undervalued rouble (though Luckyguy doesn't agree) - petrol is 30p/litre...

    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.
    Under article 46 of the ECHR participating countries are required to abide by the final judgement of the Court in any case to which they are parties. However the enforcement measures are not very strong. It requires two thirds of the Council of Ministers (not just two thirds of those voting) to agree to refer the non-compliance to the Court to decide whether or not a violation has taken place. If the Court decides that there has been a violation it goes back to the Council of Ministers to decide what measures should be taken.

    The HRA requires courts to judgements of the Court into account. Note that they are not required to follow the Court's judgements. They can, and do, depart from case law set by the ECHR. UK courts still have supremacy.

    So Russia would be in breach of the ECHR if they use their Constitutional Court to overrule the European Court in cases involving Russia. However, they would not be in breach if they obey ECHR rulings but their Constitutional Court is not bound to follow such rulings in future cases.
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    felix said:

    Completely denied and if you bothered to read the article you'd see the headline is misleading.
    Variations on this appear in other Sunday papers.

    Of course if it's been denied by people close to Cameron it can't be true.

    As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it. Should go down well with the Enoch Powell Fan Club, if no one else.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369



    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.

    That's not my understanding, but others here may know for sure. The ECHR was in principle always superior to British law (otherwise there isn't any point in appealing to the ECJ if you feel you've been wronged by national law - the idea is to protect against violations of rights by national law, as we arguably see in Hungary). Labour's change made it easier by allowing direct appeal instead of requiring a British court to refer it, but it didn't change the primacy.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966



    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.

    That's not my understanding, but others here may know for sure. The ECHR was in principle always superior to British law (otherwise there isn't any point in appealing to the ECJ if you feel you've been wronged by national law - the idea is to protect against violations of rights by national law, as we arguably see in Hungary). Labour's change made it easier by allowing direct appeal instead of requiring a British court to refer it, but it didn't change the primacy.
    It does beg that question what happens if the country in question just tells the ECJ to get lost and refuses to comply with the penalty... since its apparently not possible for countries to leave the EU, as we were told repeatedly over the Greece debacle. Ultimate it seems to have a lot to do with politics and rather little to do with law.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited December 2015
    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    felix said:

    Completely denied and if you bothered to read the article you'd see the headline is misleading.
    Variations on this appear in other Sunday papers.

    Of course if it's been denied by people close to Cameron it can't be true.

    As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it. Should go down well with the Enoch Powell Fan Club, if no one else.

    This side of the EU Referendum there isn't the faintest chance of him blaming the villainous EU for anything, its going to be close enough as it is without making work for himself.

    Regarding the ideas of soaking the returning expats, can't see that happening either on reflection, the government didn't just extend the franchise for overseas residents past 15 years, presumably because they tend to vote Tory, just to hand them a reason not to.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    CD13 said:

    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.

    Well put Sir, although I'm interested to hear your definition of "good politician". Cameron is undoubtedly a good campaigner and I don't believe he's a nasty person, his problem is that just like Blair he has no deep seated principles. In fact I'm going to contradict myself, he has deep seated views on the EU, why not just be honest about them instead of going through this ludicrous charade.

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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited December 2015
    CD13 said:

    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.

    I know JC better than you do. You may - just - be right in his case. He knows how to get what he wants.

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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    CD13 said:

    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.

    Well put Sir, although I'm interested to hear your definition of "good politician". Cameron is undoubtedly a good campaigner and I don't believe he's a nasty person, his problem is that just like Blair he has no deep seated principles. In fact I'm going to contradict myself, he has deep seated views on the EU, why not just be honest about them instead of going through this ludicrous charade.

    I am not even sure about that, I would hazard that the only deep seated view he has on the EU is that he wishes the whole issue would go away. He doesn't feel strongly enough about IN or OUT to get excited about it, its just a party management issue to him, and his (rather optimistic) hoped for easy win for IN is the best way to bury the issue for a decade or more.
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    Mr. Indigo, that's my feeling as well.

    It'd take a lot for Cameron to shift to Out.
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    CD13 said:

    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.

    Well put Sir, although I'm interested to hear your definition of "good politician". Cameron is undoubtedly a good campaigner and I don't believe he's a nasty person, his problem is that just like Blair he has no deep seated principles. In fact I'm going to contradict myself, he has deep seated views on the EU, why not just be honest about them instead of going through this ludicrous charade.

    The renegotiation thing was designed to help him win the election, not to work well after he'd won the election.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    Most sensible Tories of both IN and OUT pursuasion think that he has made a complete dogs dinner out of this renegotiation, its only the "undecided" members of the Cameron Fan Club who can see no fault in his performance.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I think the issue is the unending stream of one-note posts. It makes for dull reading - along with insulting Tory posters as generic mindless sheeple. When there's no nuance - well it's the equivalent of @malcolmg saying *turnip* 30x a day.

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Indigo said:

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    Most sensible Tories of both IN and OUT pursuasion think that he has made a complete dogs dinner out of this renegotiation, its only the "undecided" members of the Cameron Fan Club who can see no fault in his performance.
    Thanks for letting me know that by not agreeing with your opinion I'm a not-sensible Tory. I'd understood that polls told a different story but stand to be corrected.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    Indigo said:

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    Most sensible Tories of both IN and OUT pursuasion think that he has made a complete dogs dinner out of this renegotiation, its only the "undecided" members of the Cameron Fan Club who can see no fault in his performance.
    "Most sensible Tories"

    Leaving aside the oxymoron, all you are doing is saying anyone who disagrees with your view is not sensible.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'm voting Leave on the principle of sovereignty, and think it's far too early to tell - and that all the mooing from the sidelines is quite pointless and uninformed. We don't know WTF is going on as newspapers fill column inches with any old rumour or wishful thinking.
    Indigo said:

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    Most sensible Tories of both IN and OUT pursuasion think that he has made a complete dogs dinner out of this renegotiation, its only the "undecided" members of the Cameron Fan Club who can see no fault in his performance.
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    I think the issue is the unending stream of one-note posts. It makes for dull reading - along with insulting Tory posters as generic mindless sheeple. When there's no nuance - well it's the equivalent of @malcolmg saying *turnip* 30x a day.

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    I'd pay more mind if you posted links to the Daily Wail less. As it is, and just so you don't feel abandoned. Baaa...

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    RodCrosby said:

    Sample size 400...

    Not worthy of a thread.

    No single poll is.

    Go look at how the US media is treating this.

    I made a lot of money in 2004, 2008 and 2012 following this pollster for the Iowa caucuses.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015

    I'm voting Leave on the principle of sovereignty, and think it's far too early to tell - and that all the mooing from the sidelines is quite pointless and uninformed. We don't know WTF is going on as newspapers fill column inches with any old rumour or wishful thinking.

    Well what we know is:

    In Jan 2013 he gave his Bloomberg Speech in which argued the EU needed "fundamental, far-reaching change".

    Last March he was saying the EU must have "new mechanisms in place to prevent vast migrations across the continent" and must "bringing back control of Britain's borders".

    At Last year's Tory Conference he said "I will not take no for an answer and when it comes to free movement - I will get what Britain needs."

    For most of the last year we have been hearing all about the 4 years benefit proposal, his new red line and how a new treaty was the only way that would be safe enough to guarantee British interests.

    And now Auntie Angela has told him, the Prime Minister of a sovereign nation, that he can't have that either, and that there will be no treaty.

    His three remaining negotiating positions are promises to give us what we already have or what everyone wants.

    You would have to be a pretty committed, dyed in the wool Tory to describe that as any sort of success.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I think the issue is the unending stream of one-note posts. It makes for dull reading - along with insulting Tory posters as generic mindless sheeple. When there's no nuance - well it's the equivalent of @malcolmg saying *turnip* 30x a day.

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    I'd pay more mind if you posted links to the Daily Wail less. As it is, and just so you don't feel abandoned. Baaa...

    And in reciprocity we will see less links from the BBC and The Grauniad ?
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    Indigo said:

    I think the issue is the unending stream of one-note posts. It makes for dull reading - along with insulting Tory posters as generic mindless sheeple. When there's no nuance - well it's the equivalent of @malcolmg saying *turnip* 30x a day.

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    I'd pay more mind if you posted links to the Daily Wail less. As it is, and just so you don't feel abandoned. Baaa...

    And in reciprocity we will see less links from the BBC and The Grauniad ?
    Not from me you won't. I don't post them as it is.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Coral 5-1 Cruz republican nominee
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Surely that will never get passed the appts committee?
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    Would Livingstone accept a peerage.. Is he just a gravy train-er after all?

    I'd be very surprised if he did.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Lord Livingstone of GLC. He seems stuck in that place - like a 1980s horror version of Brigadoon.

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    Would Livingstone accept a peerage.. Is he just a gravy train-er after all?

    I'd be very surprised if he did.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    From the way this thread has been written, OGH and TSE must have been dancing an Iowan square dance all night.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,077

    I think the issue is the unending stream of one-note posts. It makes for dull reading - along with insulting Tory posters as generic mindless sheeple. When there's no nuance - well it's the equivalent of @malcolmg saying *turnip* 30x a day.

    There are suggestions that this latest development is all part of Cameron's plan to be seen to be getting a good deal despite serious opposition, tbh he's up against 27 others who won't all see it the way he does.

    Why doesn't Cameron have the bollox to say:

    Look, I know it's not perfect but I want us to stay in regardless.

    He is painting himself into a corner where unless he gets real concessions he's going to look weak and ineffective.

    Why on earth would anyone give credence to the UKIPgraph or a kipper posting something negative about Cameron ?
    Luckily I do not and save it for the biggest fools and cretins
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Would Livingstone accept a peerage.. Is he just a gravy train-er after all?

    I'd be very surprised if he did.

    If he accepts a peerage, Corbyn can appoint him Shadow Defence Secretary
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    0_o Just another day at the office. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12047827/The-veteran-Trotskyite-and-the-public-schoolboy-united-behind-Jeremy-Corbyn.html
    Yet the most interesting thing about Mr Corbyn’s appearance at Friday’s Stop the War Coalition dinner was not what he said – but who he was with. Mr Corbyn tried to hurry out through an emergency exit, but he could not escape being photographed with the man who chaired the notorious press conference at which Mohammed Emwazi, the Isil executioner known as Jihadi John, was described as a “beautiful young man”.

    John Rees, a veteran Trotskyite and national officer of Stop the War, has stated his opposition to “regime change” in Syria. He also backed Russia’s annexation of Crimea, describing it as the “Russian state defending its interests … what we are seeing now is fundamentally a response to the period after the Cold War in which Nato has moved eastwards and now, in an almost literal sense, has its tanks on the lawn of the Russian state”.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,394
    As I said yesterday caucuses are weird. They require enthusiastic and experienced organisers to get a result. I think the key word is "experienced". There is an enormous advantage given to those within the party political process who have been through this before, several times.

    My guess and expectation is that Trump will have relatively few supporters like that. Corbyn like, most of his support will have come from outside the mainstream political process. His supporters are likely to find themselves bewildered and ineffective in this process.

    I therefore think that someone who is a mainstream politician is very likely to outperform him in Iowa, particularly if the Republican establishment start to throw their weight behind him. The results of Selzer's polls have generally been good because she contacts the correct electorate for the Caucus.

    The big loser here is Rubio. A poorish third or fourth will put pressure on him and his supporters to get behind Cruz to stop Trump. Carson will soon have more time to investigate his pyramids.
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    Miss Plato, the most shocking aspect of that is that it really isn't a surprise.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And another one. No wonder Comrade Corbyn is so keen to write letters supporting pensioner defrauding STW supporters. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12047894/James-Schneider-face-of-Momentum-activists-with-education-and-childhood-home-paid-for-by-fraud.html
    The main spokesman for Momentum, the controversial far-Left Jeremy Corbyn supporters’ group, was educated at top private schools and grew up in a £7 million Primrose Hill mansion thanks to the proceeds of a huge alleged fraud.

    James Schneider, 28, is the public face of Momentum, which has been repeatedly accused of bullying and threatening Labour moderates and MPs in its campaign for what he calls a “more democratic and equal society”.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Indigo said:




    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.

    That's not my understanding, but others here may know for sure. The ECHR was in principle always superior to British law (otherwise there isn't any point in appealing to the ECJ if you feel you've been wronged by national law - the idea is to protect against violations of rights by national law, as we arguably see in Hungary). Labour's change made it easier by allowing direct appeal instead of requiring a British court to refer it, but it didn't change the primacy.
    It does beg that question what happens if the country in question just tells the ECJ to get lost and refuses to comply with the penalty... since its apparently not possible for countries to leave the EU, as we were told repeatedly over the Greece debacle. Ultimate it seems to have a lot to do with politics and rather little to do with law.
    your final sentence seems to capture the appearance of the situation perfectly. that may or may not be unfair, but its that kind of appearance why the whole system seems so toxic
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,077

    Surely that will never get passed the appts committee?

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    You have to be kidding , have you not seen the riff raff and ne'er do wells that have got past them. If you look at the assorted merde that have made it then Ken would be a shining star amonst the turds. Perfect example Alexander , Foulkes , Mone.
    One from each sorry party of lowlifes. Mone is the biggest disgrace of all time.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    DavidL said:


    The big loser here is Rubio.

    Correct - I have laid just under £50 of him this morning at ~ 2.58.

    If he does poorly in New Hampshire too, his price must surely fly out.
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    Mr. G, one must assume you're unfamiliar with the shenanigans of Caligula if you think Mone becoming a peer is the biggest disgrace of all time :p
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/675975416113471488

    This complete bollocks from Johnson.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    An ermine clad great crested newt would surely attract the attention of Davis Attenborough.

    A sure fire televisual feast on the Beeb.

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    Indigo said:




    If two courts can reach different decisions then by definition they're inconsistent. That doesn't make either ruling illegitimate though clearly on has to have supremacy. I don't see any reason why UK bodies having an overrule power should be incompatible with membership of the Counil of Europe. After all that was the position for the best part of fifty years until Labour changed the law so that the ECHR's judgements had direct applicability.

    That's not my understanding, but others here may know for sure. The ECHR was in principle always superior to British law (otherwise there isn't any point in appealing to the ECJ if you feel you've been wronged by national law - the idea is to protect against violations of rights by national law, as we arguably see in Hungary). Labour's change made it easier by allowing direct appeal instead of requiring a British court to refer it, but it didn't change the primacy.
    It does beg that question what happens if the country in question just tells the ECJ to get lost and refuses to comply with the penalty... since its apparently not possible for countries to leave the EU, as we were told repeatedly over the Greece debacle. Ultimate it seems to have a lot to do with politics and rather little to do with law.
    This would be the same as if you broke any other peacetime international treaty: Other countries would start unilaterally reneging on the treaty commitments they'd made to you.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well it'd be totally in keeping with being drunk as a lord - his penchant for newts is merely serendipity.
    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    An ermine clad great crested newt would surely attract the attention of Davis Attenborough.

    A sure fire televisual feast on the Beeb.

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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'So that leaves him three statements of the obvious for his renegotiation

    1) More competitiveness in the EU - which everyone wants
    2) More than one currency in the EU - like saying more than one language, there is, and its here to stay
    3) No tie in to the words "every closer union" - but still subject to the federalist ECJ

    In other words nothing.'

    Yep - exactly as jokingly predicted here a few weeks ago. Next step - rename the status quo as 'Associate Membership'.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    MikeK said:

    https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/675975416113471488

    This complete bollocks from Johnson.

    Surely our border arrangements at Calais stem from a bilateral treaty between France and the UK. Nowt, for once, anything to do with the EU.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,394
    Matt's take on EU benefit tourism: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
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    CD13 said:

    "As I read it he's going to use it as an opportunity to cut benefits for born-and-breds and then blame the villainous EU for it."

    I doubt that. He may be a fool, but he's not an idiot.

    I've always regarded Cameron as a good politician, but an amateur dabbling in things he believes he's rather good at. They don't eat babies, they just have different priorities. Why do some believe that their opponents must always be the spawn of Satan?

    Even Jezza has good points.

    Well put Sir, although I'm interested to hear your definition of "good politician". Cameron is undoubtedly a good campaigner and I don't believe he's a nasty person, his problem is that just like Blair he has no deep seated principles. In fact I'm going to contradict myself, he has deep seated views on the EU, why not just be honest about them instead of going through this ludicrous charade.

    The renegotiation thing was designed to help him win the election, not to work well after he'd won the election.

    Exactly. Surely the only people who are remotely surprised by how things are panning out currently are those who failed to notice that the sole reason Cameron made the commitment in the first place was to placate the Tory right at a time when UKIP looked like it might eat into the Tory vote and cost the party seats in the GE.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Although I'm not in the least bit religious and this article should have been posted on 6th December, I'm posting it now, because the underlying message is the continuation of the battle against PC and the liberal madness that is going on now.

    http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/a-dangerous-holiday.html
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Well it'd be totally in keeping with being drunk as a lord - his penchant for newts is merely serendipity.

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Jeremy Corbyn 'considering Ken Livingstone for peerage': https://t.co/RAV8NZJ8ol https://t.co/dWq4APdu9p

    An ermine clad great crested newt would surely attract the attention of Davis Attenborough.

    A sure fire televisual feast on the Beeb.

    "Drunk as a lord ..."

    A shocking allegation that .... hic .... I'm sure you can substantiate ... hic ....



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    Exactly. Surely the only people who are remotely surprised by how things are panning out currently are those who failed to notice that the sole reason Cameron made the commitment in the first place was to placate the Tory right at a time when UKIP looked like it might eat into the Tory vote and cost the party seats in the GE.

    Yes, and he's still trying to placate these people who can never be placated. That's why we're going to be offered the choice of either "less EU" or "no EU" in this stupid referendum. It's like being asked to choose between stale bread and mouldy bread. :(

    I'll not be voting for either.

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    Exactly. Surely the only people who are remotely surprised by how things are panning out currently are those who failed to notice that the sole reason Cameron made the commitment in the first place was to placate the Tory right at a time when UKIP looked like it might eat into the Tory vote and cost the party seats in the GE.

    Yes, and he's still trying to placate these people who can never be placated. That's why we're going to be offered the choice of either "less EU" or "no EU" in this stupid referendum. It's like being asked to choose between stale bread and mouldy bread. :(

    I'll not be voting for either.

    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?
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    perdix said:

    MikeK said:

    https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/675975416113471488

    This complete bollocks from Johnson.

    Surely our border arrangements at Calais stem from a bilateral treaty between France and the UK. Nowt, for once, anything to do with the EU.

    Indeed.

    Expect an endless torrent of LIES from the Remain camp.

    The Leave campaign should focus on calmly and clearly presenting the FACTS.
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    runnymede said:

    'So that leaves him three statements of the obvious for his renegotiation

    1) More competitiveness in the EU - which everyone wants
    2) More than one currency in the EU - like saying more than one language, there is, and its here to stay
    3) No tie in to the words "every closer union" - but still subject to the federalist ECJ

    In other words nothing.'

    Yep - exactly as jokingly predicted here a few weeks ago. Next step - rename the status quo as 'Associate Membership'.

    I wouldn't mind something that was genuinely akin to Associate Membership, but it appears the only way of achieving it now is to vote to Leave.
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    kle4 said:



    your final sentence seems to capture the appearance of the situation perfectly. that may or may not be unfair, but its that kind of appearance why the whole system seems so toxic

    I think there is also a touch of the ongoing confusion between the ECHR and ECJ. Nick Palmer's original comment was regarding the Russian's ignoring of the ECHR rulings through use of a clever little legal/political ruse. The way in which each country approaches the ECHR rulings will depend on their internal legal systems. So for example in the UK we have taken the route of adopting ECHR rulings as part of our case law. This means that our own legal precedents should already be taking ECHR rulings into account. Given that ECHR rulings tend to involve individuals who can then appeal directly to the ECHR and have compensation awarded which is enforceable through the UK courts, it only tends to be the most high profile cases - things like the prisoner voting - where there is any question of political disagreement and conflict.

    The ECJ is completely different. This is one of the pillars of the EU and it deals with issues where either there is conflict between two parts of EU legislation or where a country (or a company) is failing to abide by its obligations under EU law. As such it is far more political and the solutions tend to be more political as well. But it is worth noting that it does have the right to levy hefty fines against any government or company who fails to bide by its rulings and these are enforced through the EU treaties. These fines come in two parts - a lump sum for the breach plus a daily fine for every day the breach continues. And these are not small amounts and tend to be in the tens of millions building to hundreds of millions in the most serious cases. The recent fines against the UK for failing to introduce new energy rules were £250,000 a day for every day of non compliance.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    runnymede said:

    'So that leaves him three statements of the obvious for his renegotiation

    1) More competitiveness in the EU - which everyone wants
    2) More than one currency in the EU - like saying more than one language, there is, and its here to stay
    3) No tie in to the words "every closer union" - but still subject to the federalist ECJ

    In other words nothing.'

    Yep - exactly as jokingly predicted here a few weeks ago. Next step - rename the status quo as 'Associate Membership'.

    I wouldn't mind something that was genuinely akin to Associate Membership, but it appears the only way of achieving it now is to vote to Leave.
    Quite. The fear of the unknown had me for a while, but if we could stand still at least that might be acceptable, but I don't believe it is. The goal being sought will not allow it.
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    Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    edited December 2015



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



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    Mr. Whaley, whilst I disagree with you on the EU, you may be heartened that the options are to leave, or for ever more integration. The latter will be labelled otherwise, but the EU train only travels in one direction (until derailment, of course).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    One thing, you note how Ted Cruz has the USA flag behind him in his picture, whilst the others don't :D ?
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    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    But you can have what you want - if you want to have a life that's "more EU" you can always move (after all, that is the point of free movement in the EU!) to a Euro country and enjoy life there.

    Just like I might flee if Britain continues down the sorry path it finds itself on at the moment. Always fancied Canada...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    But you can have what you want - if you want to have a life that's "more EU" you can always move (after all, that is the point of free movement in the EU!) to a Euro country and enjoy life there.

    Just like I might flee if Britain continues down the sorry path it finds itself on at the moment. Always fancied Canada...
    Regina is very nice this time of year.
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    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    But you can have what you want - if you want to have a life that's "more EU" you can always move (after all, that is the point of free movement in the EU!) to a Euro country and enjoy life there.

    Just like I might flee if Britain continues down the sorry path it finds itself on at the moment. Always fancied Canada...
    Regina is very nice this time of year.
    I think on the sly you're a bit of an old queen ....

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I suspect Europe would run better without us, for two reasons.

    1. The EU would lose a reluctant member.
    2. I think it would force it to address it's democratic deficit.

    Really, leaving the EU could be the best thing for us, and for the people of the continent.
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    rcs1000 said:



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I suspect Europe would run better without us, for two reasons.

    1. The EU would lose a reluctant member.
    2. I think it would force it to address it's democratic deficit.

    Really, leaving the EU could be the best thing for us, and for the people of the continent.
    I agree with that. It would be interesting to see if other countries also decided they were BOO should the UK decide to go. It may well speed the move towards federalism with those who do not want such an outcome being told they either accept it or go.
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    rcs1000 said:



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I suspect Europe would run better without us, for two reasons.
    1. The EU would lose a reluctant member.
    2. I think it would force it to address it's democratic deficit.
    Really, leaving the EU could be the best thing for us, and for the people of the continent.
    3. Force the EC to face up to living in a real world without our funding.
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    Deep shock. On BBC1 Sunday Politics.
    1. Not one Guardian columnist - usually 2.
    2. Only one leftie (New Statesman).
    3. A journalist from the Sun!
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    i quite agree. We've been the plain, chubby one who pays the mean girls bar bill. They never wanted us - and we wanted acceptance, then realised we'd never be part of the gang and bitched about ever since.
    rcs1000 said:



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I suspect Europe would run better without us, for two reasons.

    1. The EU would lose a reluctant member.
    2. I think it would force it to address it's democratic deficit.

    Really, leaving the EU could be the best thing for us, and for the people of the continent.
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    The lack of Nick Watt (Guardian) from Sunday Politics show, not a surprise under the circumstances of this week.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I really like Nick Watt - very genial, good analysis and knows his stuff. I hope he gets a solid TV/paper gig somewhere that appreciates him.

    Clearly the Guardian doesn't. SkyAnuska as his boss???

    The lack of Nick Watt (Guardian) from Sunday Politics show, not a surprise under the circumstances of this week.

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    Miss Plato, heard about that. It baffled me. Didn't she replace Glen O'Glaza as the Labour Party's ambassador to Sky?
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    rcs1000 said:



    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I suspect Europe would run better without us, for two reasons.
    1. The EU would lose a reluctant member.
    2. I think it would force it to address it's democratic deficit.
    Really, leaving the EU could be the best thing for us, and for the people of the continent.
    3. Force the EC to face up to living in a real world without our funding.
    Quite.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I haven't seen her enough - but she seemed like a second or third tier fill in, not someone destined for a big career leap.

    Miss Plato, heard about that. It baffled me. Didn't she replace Glen O'Glaza as the Labour Party's ambassador to Sky?

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    Miss Plato, aye. Worse for Sky was Tim Marshall[sp] stepping down. He was/is a top chap. Would've been informative to hear his views on Syria/the migrant crisis.
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    Good grief. Someone who wants "more EU".... have you considered moving?

    No, why should I? What a bizarre suggestion. Why should I run away just because I can't have what I want? :/

    I like the UK. I like the EU. These are not incompatible statements.



    The trouble with this whole debate is there are not enough people on either side making a positive case for their cause - either Remain or Leave. This is not helped by comments like 'You can always leave' when someone does actually state clearly they are in favour of the EU.

    There is an intellectual case for federalism in the EU - it is just not one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean that those who want 'more EU' are wrong nor that they should be told to leave the UK to get what they want.
    I'm not telling people they should leave the UK, only that they can.

    We live in a world where the population is very mobile. This can present an opportunity for people to move to (and re-enforce) places that suit their political/economic needs, rather than trying endlessly to change the place they currently live.

    It's a city-state-esque ideology of how we can organise ourselves and be happy with our lot.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    He was superb. What's he doing now?

    Miss Plato, aye. Worse for Sky was Tim Marshall[sp] stepping down. He was/is a top chap. Would've been informative to hear his views on Syria/the migrant crisis.

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    Nick Watt is one of my favourite political commentators. One of few Guardian commentators (besides Marina Hyde, Andrew Rawnsely and occasionally Simon Jenkins) that I like.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,715

    Miss Plato, aye. Worse for Sky was Tim Marshall[sp] stepping down. He was/is a top chap. Would've been informative to hear his views on Syria/the migrant crisis.

    He has been interviewed several times on BBC recently, so there is still a chance to hear Tim's views.
This discussion has been closed.