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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Jeremy Hunt might be onto a loser in his fight with the

SystemSystem Posts: 12,292
edited 2015 16 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Jeremy Hunt might be onto a loser in his fight with the doctors

The government is heading for a major confrontation with junior doctors over pay restructuring. Jeremy Hunt is looking to change their terms of employment to facilitate his vision of a seven day a week health service. Junior doctors feel that the revised terms pull the rug from under them. They feel that Jeremy Hunt is spoiling for a fight and that he is looking to impose his terms on them.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    First?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    So we should let Doctors have whatever they want since they are trusted more? Laughable.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    I disagree.

    If they go on strike and people can attribute patient deaths to said strike then those numbers are going to tumble.

    Doctors aren't on the bread line like some of those who were going to have their tax credits cut so again they'll have less sympathy.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Yes Hunt will not win this battle but his aim could be to further destabilise the NHS after Lansley did his worst. We're still paying for Lansley's unwanted and needless changes. Cover is already spread thin and it won't do 7 days without an input of more money.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Doctors should not go on strike. Part of the reason we trust doctors is an implicit assumption that they have our best interests at heart.

    Striking destroys that assumption. Any strike will kill people.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    antifrank said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
    For less important plebs with less busy lives, the long threads can be interesting/enlightening.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    antifrank said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
    I do like short posts to the point or just posting a chart where the message is very clear.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    edited 2015 16
    Hunt will be finished if this goes ahead.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/holby-city-stars-walk-out-6834118

    Luvvies for Labour or is it a virtuous virtue signalling cult not at work.

    Holby Junior Hospital Doctors strike in sympathy...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tombradby: Le Pen tells us; no more migrants or refugees. Not a single one... https://t.co/UD3CBwh8iY
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Chris_A said:

    Yes Hunt will not win this battle but his aim could be to further destabilise the NHS after Lansley did his worst. We're still paying for Lansley's unwanted and needless changes. Cover is already spread thin and it won't do 7 days without an input of more money.

    Two of the smartest things Cameron did in the run-up to GE15 was move Lansley from Health and Gove from Education.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited 2015 16
    Perhaps Jeremy Hunt has picked his battle carefully. He's a careful politician.

    As for the doctors, it is an invariable rule that, come what may, they will always oppose anything government does, just as they opposed the creation of the NHS.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Perhaps Jeremy Hunt has picked his battle carefully. He's a careful politician.

    As for the doctors, it is an invariable rule that, come what may, they will always oppose anything government does, just as they opposed the creation of the NHS.

    Perhaps. I'm struggling to see how he can win this. It's not even as though he has the unqualified backing of the Conservative parts of the media.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .
    Did the same happen for the tube strike?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    When was the poll conducted?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    We trust doctors to tell the truth, because that is their job.

    We expect politicians not to tell the truth, because that too comes with the job.

    Doesn't mean a doctor's strike will be supported by the people.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any proof to back up that assertion?

    Doctors playing politics with peoples lives in their pursuit of money, will only play one way.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

    Unlike Mark, I haven't stated a view on who will be blamed ;)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    I never get tired of reminding my father (NHS doctor for 30 years) that Ken Clarke said in his all his dealings with public sector employees the most militant he had to deal was with those that worked in the NHS.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    MarkSenior said:

    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .

    But it isn't a question of whether people trust the doctors to tell the truth (the truth about what, by the way?). It's a question of whether they are resisting sensible reforms. You don't have to think they are being dishonest to think they are being obstructive.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    watford30 said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any proof to back up that assertion?

    Doctors playing politics with peoples lives in their pursuit of money, will only play one way.
    A politician playing politics with peoples lives in the pursuit of political motives will only play one way with the public as a whole .
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Any poll that says 1 in 6 of us trust politicians must be treated with caution, I can't believe anybody does. Actually I'll rephrase that, we all trust the ones we want to trust.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:

    When was the poll conducted?

    The poll has been conducted annually for donkeys' years. This particular one was from the beginning of the year. You'd have had much the same findings any year in the last 20.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Perhaps Jeremy Hunt has picked his battle carefully. He's a careful politician.

    As for the doctors, it is an invariable rule that, come what may, they will always oppose anything government does, just as they opposed the creation of the NHS.

    If he's judged it a necessary battle [I don't know if it is], then the best time to get it done is immediately after the GE. If there's to be a compromise then it would be as well for Hunt to get the BMA's demands (for facilitating "true" 7 day working) on the record asap so that whatever is agreed represents climbdown on both sides.

    But more generally, strikers don't command as much sympathy as would-be strikers. The BMA have to tread carefully here too.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Cue for I was misquoted.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/666261434498736129

    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,360
    A surprisingly simplistic thread. Do we think the public blame politicians for the much poorer health outcomes at weekends? Do we think the public will blame politician for trying to do something to remedy those poor outcomes?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .
    Did the same happen for the tube strike?
    Where are tube drivers on the trust list and how many patients lives were endangered ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Well having watched Corbyn on Sky, I can't imagine him as PM having to make any difficult decisions. He makes Gordon Brown look decisive, and this is the man who when asked a simple quesiton about his favourite food said...

    I like chinese food, indian food, I likes English food um, British food. I like French foo..., uh ..
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .
    Did the same happen for the tube strike?
    Where are tube drivers on the trust list and how many patients lives were endangered ?
    Well trade union officials are about three times higher than politicians. And in this case, I am talking about blame in general.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    dr_spyn said:

    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.

    He's like a seven-year old saying 'Mummy, why can't all these people be nice to each other?'
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    The issue I really don't understand here is that the main reason for the disparity of outcomes for patients treated at weekends is largely due to the absence of consultants. In simple terms, it's the time when the junior doctors are in control. They're already working weekends (as the 'I'm in work, Jeremy' campaign on Twitter sought to point out). If you want a better service at weekends you need to get the consultants in, not fiddle around with junior doctors' contracts.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    On topic, Hunt has a very good chance of 'winning' because he can change the terms of employment and there's not a great deal the doctors can do about it. The doctors won't like it and if it becomes a major issue the public might not like it - which means it might not be worth it - but he can still get his way.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dr_spyn said:

    Cue for I was misquoted.

    @IanDunt: And I want all the comics, but we're playing big boy games now. https://t.co/bwoN53y0ij

    @robertsjonathan: Platitudinous crap. Might as well say 'why can't we all just hold hands and skip through meadows beneath rainbows?' https://t.co/frSxZBpety
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    If Ms Merkel is looking for an excuse to do a U-turn, here it is:

    German authorities said they have arrested an Algerian asylum seeker, whom they allege told associates early last week that bomb attacks were coming to Paris.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/16/paris-attacks-france-airstrikes-isis-raqqa-syria-live

    14:50
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    It sure as he'll doesn't include a minivan's worth of LD MPs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Now is a GREAT time to get the Doctor changes and tax credits through.

    Hunt and Osborne should hop straight to it :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 16
    Odd that clergy/priests are still so trusted when hardly anyone uses their services these days.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    Someone should remind Jeremy of the old saw: "People who say violence never solves anything haven't used enough violence".
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    ThomasNashe said:

    The issue I really don't understand here is that the main reason for the disparity of outcomes for patients treated at weekends is largely due to the absence of consultants. In simple terms, it's the time when the junior doctors are in control. They're already working weekends (as the 'I'm in work, Jeremy' campaign on Twitter sought to point out). If you want a better service at weekends you need to get the consultants in, not fiddle around with junior doctors' contracts.

    £1bn a year extra goes straight into pay packets, not extra care, as a result of current contractual design, I believe.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    John_M said:

    Someone should remind Jeremy of the old saw: "People who say violence never solves anything haven't used enough violence".

    @IanDunt: Those saying bombing in Syria can't work: Tell that the 50,000 Yazidis who fled to safety in Sinjar Mountains following US air strikes.

    @IanDunt: Isis would have slaughtered every single one of them. American bombs and Kurdish troops saved them.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,958
    RobD said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

    Unlike Mark, I haven't stated a view on who will be blamed ;)
    watford30 said:
    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    Back to talking about man hole covers for Jezza. He talks more sense about those.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    logical_song said:

    RobD said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

    Unlike Mark, I haven't stated a view on who will be blamed ;)
    watford30 said:
    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.
    Yes, note it wasn't "RobD said"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    MikeSmithson said:

    antifrank said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
    I do like short posts to the point or just posting a chart where the message is very clear.
    I do too but am nowhere near mastering the art of writing them!
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    The evidence is in the table given by the thread writer . Hunt will blame the doctors . The doctors will blame Hunt for not being prepared to negotiate and the general public will on balance believe the doctors rather than Hunt .
    Did the same happen for the tube strike?
    Where are tube drivers on the trust list and how many patients lives were endangered ?
    The tube strike happened when the unions came out in support of a driver disciplined for being at the wheel pissed out of his face.

    So that's a tube train full of endangered commuters for a start.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    AndyJS said:

    Odd that clergy/priests are still so trusted when hardly anyone uses their services these days.

    I'm not sure I 'trust' any one group more than another.

    My trust is based upon my knowledge and respect for the individual concerned, and my history of dealings with them.

    Even then sometimes you just get it wrong.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Dr. Spyn, presumably Corbyn will be organising a fire-side sing-along of Kum Ba Yah?

    Mr. M, or, indeed, Putin. He didn't get Crimea by holding hands and making daisy chains.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 16
    AndyJS said:

    Odd that clergy/priests are still so trusted when hardly anyone uses their services these days.

    Would you trust a Finsbury Park Imam to run a gun club; or a recently retired 'celibate' vicar in his 70s to look after your 9 year old kids ?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited 2015 16
    Hunt wins in any case.

    The Drs will be damaged by strikes.
    The public would like better weekend outcomes and seven day NHS

    The battle may be won by Drs, but the long term position they have will be diminished. Thus Hunt wins (it may be a pyrrhic victory).
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,130
    That's an astonishingly good figure for Doctors. They have no idea what the truth is, nor do teachers. Gobsmackingly awful for Scientists and Judges - they should have the luxury of 'don't know'.

    The Clergy - by definition they must be wrong, so 71% of the sample are a bit wrong-headed anyway.

    The only people on the list that have an unambiguous brief are the pollsters and the newsreaders. Possibly the Journos too.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,360
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    The man is a complete fucking tool.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    I note charity workers are not in the list.

    It would be interesting to see their position and movement after Batmanbatshit's interventions.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    Casino_Royale said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    antifrank said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
    I do like short posts to the point or just posting a chart where the message is very clear.
    I do too but am nowhere near mastering the art of writing them!
    My steps to writing to threads

    1) Have a punt, write a thread based on that

    2) Have a pun, write a thread based on that

    3) Can I troll the Nats with a thread, write a thread based on that

    4) Same as 3 but replace Nats with Kippers

    5) Can I do a thread that combines 3 and 4, write a thread on that

    6) Can I compare something from antiquity to current day politics, if so do a thread on that
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,958
    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    RobD said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

    Unlike Mark, I haven't stated a view on who will be blamed ;)
    watford30 said:
    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.
    Yes, note it wasn't "RobD said"
    Oops, sorry, got lost in the reply list. So, do you agree with Watford?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    MarqueeMark said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    The man is a complete fucking tool.
    Blimey, he can say no it's really not a hypothetical ! It is the question he would have right now if h was PM.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    Oh no it isn't Jeremy.

    What he means is he's unable to conceive a set of circumstances in which he'd ever use military force.

    I expect, in reality, he'd find a reason to explain away inaction every single time.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Dr. Spyn, presumably Corbyn will be organising a fire-side sing-along of Kum Ba Yah?

    Mr. M, or, indeed, Putin. He didn't get Crimea by holding hands and making daisy chains.

    Come by car, My Lord, Come by car?
  • nicknick Posts: 14
    edited 2015 16

    Hi everyone. I've been regularly lurking on this forum for years, but thought I'd create an account so I could tell you about something I've been working on for much of this year. I hope you don't mind if it's a bit off topic.

    Over half the UK population is now non-religious and a similar number thinks religion does more harm than good. I think that number has probably increased as a result of the terrible attacks in Paris.

    At the same time technology and automation is on the verge of making huge swathes (35% according to a recent study) of the population unemployed. Many people will clearly need to reskill and yet none of the political parties appear to have grasped that reskilling huge numbers of people is going to be a huge challenge.

    With Labour veering to the left and the Lib Dems still reeling from the election, I think there is currently an opportunity for a new kind of political party which promotes a scientific and rational worldview. I call this the Science, Technology & Education Party (or "STEP"), and while we're not registered yet we aim to become so soon. We have a website here along with a forum and Twitter account.

    So what do you guys think? It's obviously ambitious, but I think there are people out there that this will resonate with. We're looking for key people right now, and I'm hoping some of them might be reading this. If you're interested please come and join us on the forum.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238
    edited 2015 16
    dr_spyn said:

    Cue for I was misquoted.

    (snip)
    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.

    Considering the conflict started in a civil war, the will of the 'Syrian people' - even if many of the fighters are foreign forces for AlN and ISIS - is probably hard to reconcile.

    Yesterday Hilary Benn was calling for peace talks. If that's Labour's position, it'll be interesting to know who they expect to take part in the talks, considering that two of the major combatannts - al Nusra and ISIS - are probably not people who are willing to talk. Or if they are, their demands might well be untenable.

    For the others: the Syrian regime, the remnants of the FSA, the Kurds, and the other disparate groups - it might be possible to have talks. But that leaves a fast number of combatants and territory outside the talks.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, he can say no it's really not a hypothetical ! It is the question he would have right now if h was PM.

    Not only that, but as leader of the opposition it's not hypothetical even now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    edited 2015 16
    Pulpstar said:

    I note charity workers are not in the list.

    It would be interesting to see their position and movement after Batmanbatshit's interventions.

    And chuggers too. Especially the pretty female ones wearing a t shirt two sizes too small.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    MarqueeMark said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say if he would ever back military action against extremists, told me repeatedly that's a 'hypothetical question'

    The man is a complete fucking tool.
    Anybody would think he wasn't even an elected official, let alone leader of the second largest political party.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    FPT Whomever said this originally, CLAPS
    ''Labour do seem to project the notion that, as long as they give Labour their votes, Muslims can pretty do what they want - and Labour will let them get on with it. From cousin marriages to FGM to hate preaching to corrupt election practices to industrial-scale rape of the young, Labour has been woefully quiet. ''
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Nick, agree on the need for technology, science and maths to be at the heart of education and the economy. There's also, as you indicate, a lot of room for a new party to make great headway in the current political climate.

    Your problems will likely be more on the political rather than the policy side. UKIP have been serially incompetent at General Elections, going for a wide and shallow approach. I'd advise you to focus on a very small number of seats and try to win them rather than spread yourselves thin and wide, and get more votes but no seats.

    You also need to decide on leadership structure, and your social approach. If you put together a liberal approach towards civil liberties and free speech with a focus on technology and science, that would be quite appealing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    Surely the hashtag should be JihadiJez?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 16
    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/digging-hole-white-background-42653295.jpg
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Anybody would think he wasn't even an elected official, let alone leader of the second largest political party.

    To be fair, he is trying as hard as he can to ensure that it stops being the second-largest.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    There is no electoral dustbin that he can't stick Labour in.
    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Milne is having a corker of a day.

    Chris ShipVerified account
    ‏@chrisshipitv
    Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JosiasJessop said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Cue for I was misquoted.

    (snip)
    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.

    Considering the conflict started in a civil war, the will of the 'Syrian people' - even if many of the fighters are foreign forces for AlN and ISIS - is probably hard to reconcile.

    Yesterday Hilary Benn was calling for peace talks. If that's Labour's position, it'll be interesting to know who they expect to take part in the talks, considering that two of the major combatannts - al Nusra and ISIS - are probably not people who are willing to talk. Or if they are, their demands might well be untenable.

    For the others: the Syrian regime, the remnants of the FSA, the Kurds, and the other disparate groups - it might be possible to have talks. But that leaves a fast number of combatants and territory outside the talks.
    Peace talks with the death cult loons would merely result in the demise of those with whom they are invited to negotiate.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    The leader chosen by Comedy Casting.

    Labour are going to need every Pakistani Muslim vote they can muster in Bolton.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    dr_spyn said:

    Cue for I was misquoted.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/666261434498736129

    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.

    Corbyn shows his complete ignorance of Syria and the Middle East in general. The modern Syria was a construct made real by the French and British dividing spheres of influence after WW1.

    Syria has/had 5 distinct religions, four of them Muslim: Sunni, Shia, Druse, and Alawites. Christians also made up a large group. Since the fighting started we have also been introduced to the Yazidis and the Kurds who also call themselves muslim. They all hate each other now, but one time, under the ottomans, they seemed to have co-existed without to much trouble.

    All the kings horses and all the kings men will never put Syria together again.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    That is some timing from Corbyn.

    And we all thought Miliband was the best sleeper agent the Conservatives ever had.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266
    Obama a talking head and showing every reason why he is a lame duck President. So poor Sky switched to Hollande addressing his Parliament in a Statesman manner declaring France is at war. He is not one for mealy mouth words like Obama and it is clear that this 'war' fight back will be lead by France and Russia, hopefully with the UK playing it's part
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    On the previous thread I pointed out Farage was speaking this evening re Paris and that he had a great opportunity. Reading what Corbyn has said reinforces that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Can someone remind Jez that I've backed him to stay in post till the start of Jihadi 1st, 2017.

    Fortunately his acolytes are working against the forces of the Labour party that would seek to destabilise him :O)

    Seamus Milne, John McDonnell - I salute you.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    Surely the hashtag should be JihadiJez?
    Jezbollah is clearly the best. Rolls off the tongue!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Pulpstar, Ayatollah Corbyni will always be Supreme Leader!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    logical_song said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    RobD said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

    The general public ( which of course excludes Conservative government apologists posting on here ) would blame primarily Hunt and secondarily the Government in general for any patient deaths that may occur .

    Any evidence for this? Or just wishful thinking?
    Maybe your view on this is wishful thinking as well. We don't know.

    Unlike Mark, I haven't stated a view on who will be blamed ;)
    watford30 said:
    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.
    Yes, note it wasn't "RobD said"
    Oops, sorry, got lost in the reply list. So, do you agree with Watford?
    Now that I've accused someone of wishful thinking, I can hardly commit myself, can I? :p
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    Pulpstar said:

    Can someone remind Jez that I've backed him to stay in post till the start of Jihadi 1st, 2017.

    Fortunately his acolytes are working against the forces of the Labour party that would seek to destabilise him :O)

    Seamus Milne, John McDonnell - I salute you.

    Check your vanilla
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    antifrank said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Blimey, antifrank, you've taken SeanT's chiding to heart.

    Actually, I'd drafted this before the other one went up. Mike has shortened it further (and made it better). I do try to take heed of constructive criticism.
    I do like short posts to the point or just posting a chart where the message is very clear.
    I do too but am nowhere near mastering the art of writing them!
    My steps to writing to threads

    1) Have a punt, write a thread based on that

    2) Have a pun, write a thread based on that

    3) Can I troll the Nats with a thread, write a thread based on that

    4) Same as 3 but replace Nats with Kippers

    5) Can I do a thread that combines 3 and 4, write a thread on that

    6) Can I compare something from antiquity to current day politics, if so do a thread on that
    I should try and tally them up! ;-)
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    Poor Labour. Attlee must be spinning in his grave.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Jeremy Corbyn just told us he questions the 'legality' of last week's airstrike which killed Mohammed Emwazi/#JihadiJohn

    The leader chosen by Comedy Casting.

    Labour are going to need every Pakistani Muslim vote they can muster in Bolton.
    But, but, but we are led to believe that Jezza is upsetting 99.9% of those with his terrorist-appeasement.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, Ayatollah Corbyni will always be Supreme Leader!

    LOL :D
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 16
    Quite. Frankly, I've been less than impressed with doctors inc GPs myself. My father persuaded our GP to keep my mother in a state of virtual stasis to keep her quiet. She had depression after the death of my infant sister, and then bipolar in her 40s. She was left a shell/doped of her previous self for 20yrs until her death.

    A complete and appalling waste of a very bright and brave spark.

    I will never forgive those who stole her life.
    watford30 said:

    Watch the trust melt away when strike action is blamed for any patient deaths.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,130
    My own personal views on this list are;

    Doctors - they don't know
    Teachers - they especially don't know
    Scientists - they don't know, and should keep quiet
    Judges - they officially don't know
    Clergy - they think they know but they don't
    TV news - always the first not to know
    Police - they should find out
    Man in the street - they like not to know
    Civil servants - knowing is no part of the remit
    Pollsters - they know they don't know
    NHS managers - they don't care that they don't know
    Trade Union types - they celebrate the fact that they don't know
    Business leaders - they're keen to keep quiet about not knowing
    Bankers - they know, but for a percentage they'll look the other way
    Journos - being the first to not know is the key
    Estate agents - shoot on sight
    Ministers - being seen to not know is the only peril
    Politicians - don't know, but will tell you they do



  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Pulpstar said:

    Can someone remind Jez that I've backed him to stay in post till the start of Jihadi 1st, 2017.

    Fortunately his acolytes are working against the forces of the Labour party that would seek to destabilise him :O)

    Seamus Milne, John McDonnell - I salute you.

    Jihadi first?

    If you know something we don't perhaps you should consider sharing it with the security services.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    I never trust doctors, some of them are as ignorant as piss. I don't trust the government either, and ditto!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,481
    JosiasJessop said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Cue for I was misquoted.

    (snip)
    I would love to know how Jezza thinks that the unity of The Syrian people will prevail. Given the depth of the religious, secular, & political differences in the country I'm damned if I understand how this bloody mess will be ended by talks. I have my doubts that Cameron has much idea about who could be let alone should be ruling in Damascus. But Corbyn needs to start leaving his comfort zone behind.

    Considering the conflict started in a civil war, the will of the 'Syrian people' - even if many of the fighters are foreign forces for AlN and ISIS - is probably hard to reconcile.

    Yesterday Hilary Benn was calling for peace talks. If that's Labour's position, it'll be interesting to know who they expect to take part in the talks, considering that two of the major combatannts - al Nusra and ISIS - are probably not people who are willing to talk. Or if they are, their demands might well be untenable.

    For the others: the Syrian regime, the remnants of the FSA, the Kurds, and the other disparate groups - it might be possible to have talks. But that leaves a fast number of combatants and territory outside the talks.
    Al Nusra and ISIS are terrorist organisations. They don't get to talk, they get to die, then the other combatants talk.

    As to the will of the Syrian people, they have been polled, and Assad got a thumping majority.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    @Omnium - Very good!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    Incidentally, I have a theory that Corbyn will be overwhelmed by indecision on all important issues. Events, not his curious views, will overwhelm him, and, if they're not careful, Labour too.

    Probably a thread header in it.
  • nicknick Posts: 14
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Nick, agree on the need for technology, science and maths to be at the heart of education and the economy. There's also, as you indicate, a lot of room for a new party to make great headway in the current political climate.

    Thanks, I'm glad you think so :smile:
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Your problems will likely be more on the political rather than the policy side. UKIP have been serially incompetent at General Elections, going for a wide and shallow approach. I'd advise you to focus on a very small number of seats and try to win them rather than spread yourselves thin and wide, and get more votes but no seats.

    I've been thinking the same thing. The Lib Dems approach of concentrating on the south west seemed to work for them. Perhaps university towns would be good candidates. Places with science/tech hubs too. I keep thinking of Cambridge.
    Morris_Dancer said:

    You also need to decide on leadership structure, and your social approach. If you put together a liberal approach towards civil liberties and free speech with a focus on technology and science, that would be quite appealing.

    Regarding civil liberties and free speech, I think this is what we've done. Our site says: We would rather live in a forward looking, free society of well educated, free thinkers than a surveillance state where hateful religious dogma goes unchallenged.

    Regarding leadership structure (and the party's constitution generally), we have not done anything yet. I've noticed that the Greens, UKIP and now Labour have all had issues caused by their organisational structure. I'm tempted to borrow heavily from the Tories who historically seem to have evolved something that's very good at getting power. Do you have any ideas on this front?
This discussion has been closed.