There are no words sufficient.. but there is a prayer
O God, we pray for those who have been murdered on the streets of our city. We commit to your loving care those who have died, beseeching you to receive their souls into the mercy of your love. Comfort their loved ones who mourn. Enable them to meet the lonely and painful days ahead in the strength of your love. Let the love that you have made known to us lead us to create safer streets for all to walk upon. Amen.
SO Stop clutching..I said nothing about rounding people up.a la the Jews in the WW2..in fact I stressed the option of choice..and one that only they could make.. Edit .. I think ST has something approaching a solution..unfortunately it is becoming a case of hard ball..and the Muslim populations in the West have to get to grips with the idea..The current situation is completely unacceptable...
I barely slept last night. I've a tonne of good friends in the city - and bataclan is where I spent what would have been our ten year anniversary with my ex and best friend.
Anyway, if Charlie Hebdo could be excused or whatevered, this one is an indiscriminate attack that can't be.
Christ.
Charlie Hebdo could not be excused. This cannot be excused. Let's not confuse pretexts with causes. These people and their supporters and appeasers and justifiers and excusers hate out civilisation, our values, our freedoms. They are barbarians with no moral values or none with any value. There can be no quarter given to such people and their revolting beliefs. Those who commit evil are responsible. Only them. Not the victims.
What I dread now is the usual and frankly morally repulsive "this was bad but.....[insertion of piece of whataboutery of choice]" closely followed by stupid bits of gesture politics unsullied by tough thinking and even tougher actions.
I have family and friends in Paris. It is a city I have lived and worked in and love. What has happened is simply unbearable.
Mr. Observer, throughout human history, young men have done great violence and done so gleefully.
But in the modern world, this is a rare thing, despised by society. The major exception is Islamic extremism, so this is not a 'young man' problem, it's an Islamic extremism problem.
Mr. T, an interesting idea, but one that will never fly, I fear. [I know that's not very helpful, but there we are].
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
I don't see anything about rounding people up in his post, where did you see it?
The bit about the religion changing or getting out.
He said if you don't like it here then leave that is not a view I agree with but nor is it the same as rounding people up. Try again.
And he also said if the religion does not change it should get out. It's there in black and white.
Yes religion. Religion is not people, it is a belief but you conflated it and said people. If people either adopt the laws of the land or choose to emigrate then the religion will adopt or get out.
The comments after the Guardian article (and indeed the article itself) make me feel physically sick.
Hundreds dead and all these left wing nut jobs, terrorist apologists and other Quislings can talk about is "poor Muslims".
The invasion of the West by radical Islam is only possible thanks to these apologists and sycophants who would rather leave their countries open to the very real evil of Islam's religious conquest.
If people within these communities want to disassociate themselves from the nasty aftertaste which is written in their scripture, the option is wide open for them to apostatise. Which, thanks to the open freedoms of the West they can actually do without penalty of death.
Hear hear, hundreds slaughtered and the Guardian is fretting over far right groups, whoever or wherever they are.
As usual I was posting on a previous thread after this opened, apologists and useless politicians are as guilty as the maniacs.
Hear hear! Well said again.
Do you think the Government should close the Guardian down?
No I don't, do you?
What do you think?
Since tim left, you have become the site's Leftie smart-arse. Try telling us some of your firm views instead. Views that we can argue about, that we can hold you to. Try telling us what you would do today.
I am deeply grateful for the compliment.
But noticeably light on actual concrete views on anything.... you must have gone down a storm in sixth form common room debates
I don't have to give my "concrete views" on here. I do that elsewhere, and I use my real name. This place is just entertainment. You can always ask OGH to ban me for taking this view, and see how far it gets you.
I doubt it does any harm if you hang around after all no one is likely to mistake your fatuous straw man arguments and ersatz leftie hand wringing, for well thought out contributions
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree - that may have to be the solution. Like you, I can't see another one right now. Forced liberalisation. Our values are better. They just are.
I barely slept last night. I've a tonne of good friends in the city - and bataclan is where I spent what would have been our ten year anniversary with my ex and best friend.
Anyway, if Charlie Hebdo could be excused or whatevered, this one is an indiscriminate attack that can't be.
I barely slept last night. I've a tonne of good friends in the city - and bataclan is where I spent what would have been our ten year anniversary with my ex and best friend.
Anyway, if Charlie Hebdo could be excused or whatevered, this one is an indiscriminate attack that can't be.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
The comments after the Guardian article (and indeed the article itself) make me feel physically sick.
Hundreds dead and all these left wing nut jobs, terrorist apologists and other Quislings can talk about is "poor Muslims".
The invasion of the West by radical Islam is only possible thanks to these apologists and sycophants who would rather leave their countries open to the very real evil of Islam's religious conquest.
If people within these communities want to disassociate themselves from the nasty aftertaste which is written in their scripture, the option is wide open for them to apostatise. Which, thanks to the open freedoms of the West they can actually do without penalty of death.
Hear hear, hundreds slaughtered and the Guardian is fretting over far right groups, whoever or wherever they are.
As usual I was posting on a previous thread after this opened, apologists and useless politicians are as guilty as the maniacs.
Hear hear! Well said again.
Do you think the Government should close the Guardian down?
Ah and sure as night follows day, here comes the hand wringing and straw man arguments.
The comments after the Guardian article (and indeed the article itself) make me feel physically sick.
Hundreds dead and all these left wing nut jobs, terrorist apologists and other Quislings can talk about is "poor Muslims".
The invasion of the West by radical Islam is only possible thanks to these apologists and sycophants who would rather leave their countries open to the very real evil of Islam's religious conquest.
If people within these communities want to disassociate themselves from the nasty aftertaste which is written in their scripture, the option is wide open for them to apostatise. Which, thanks to the open freedoms of the West they can actually do without penalty of death.
Why are you surprised? Such people have been doing this since the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, since the attacks in Kenya on the Cole, since 9/11, since 7/7 and so on. Look at the Islamic Human Rights Commission quoted on the BBC the other day which gave an award to Charlie Hebdo for being Islamophobes of the year and who joked about them not turning up to collect their award. Look at any Seamus Milne article.
There are no polite words to describe such people.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
That course of action will radicalise a few of those tolerant and liberal Muslims. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it, but we should be aware of that risk and try to out protections in place to guard against it.
One thing we should be doing is more firmly stressing the values of our country, and letting people know they should try to live within those values. If they do not share those values, perhaps they should leave rather than subject the rest of us to 'their' values.
And in a few cases that will affect religions other than Islam as well.
'A Ukip MEP believes that British Muslims should sign a special code of conduct and warns that it was a big mistake for Europe to allow "an explosion of mosques across their land"
Gerard Batten, who represents London and is member of the party's executive, told the Guardian on Tuesday that he stood by a "charter of Muslim understanding", which he commissioned in 2006.
The document asks Muslims to sign a declaration rejecting violence and says parts of the Qur'an that promote "violent physical Jihad" should be regarded as "inapplicable, invalid and non-Islamic".
Asked why Muslims have been singled out, rather than followers of other faiths, Batten said: "Christians aren't blowing people up at the moment, are they? Are there any bombs going off round the world claimed by Christian organisations? I don't think so."
Sadiq Khan, Labour's shadow London minister, said he was "appalled at the ignorance that Gerard Batten appears to have shown when speaking about the faith that I and hundreds of thousands of British Muslims practice".
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
You'd also have to ban Kosher meat. Personally I would ban both, religious nonsense of the highest order. But politically that becomes more difficult.
Out of interest, the halal ban in Sweden does not appear to have mad a huge difference to that country's attraction to Islamists.
Mark Steyn's latest column at STEYN ONLINE is worth reading ...it's only a matter of time until we are the victims of nuclear terrorism/suicide bombing ...sooner or later , it's coming !
Mr. Observer, throughout human history, young men have done great violence and done so gleefully.
But in the modern world, this is a rare thing, despised by society. The major exception is Islamic extremism, so this is not a 'young man' problem, it's an Islamic extremism problem.
Mr. T, an interesting idea, but one that will never fly, I fear. [I know that's not very helpful, but there we are].
The attacks don't happen without people being willing to carry them out. And it's almost always young men who do it. The key is to constrain that urge to destroy and also to target the usually older men who encourage it: in this case, the preachers and the mosques and other places out of which they operate. Alongside that you need the kind of enforced liberalisation SeanT is talking about. And you need enforced integration. That is the most difficult thing of all, because it involves getting buy-in from all of us.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
France has known such tragedies before, e.g. Oradour-sur-Glane on 10/6/1944, carried out by Christian soldiers, some of whom came from the German province of Alsace, now in France. The common factor is fanaticism, not the particular creed.
The West, and separately Russia, are killing many people in their bombing of ISIL-held territory in the Levant. These brutal attacks, and the recent downing of the Russian airliner, are merely retaliation. If one perpetrates total war, expect total war in return.
Utter bullshit. It is the Islamists who are perpetrating as close to total war as they can. The West's response is nothing like total war. If anything, the West's approach in Syria has been far too pusillanimous.
Do you expect a change, David?
Expect? Probably not. There is some serious thinking to be done about Syria because none of the options is good. One reason why the West has got itself into such a muddle there is because it doesn't really want any of the combatants to win. Yet as ultimately, one of them must, surely it is in our interests to ensure that (1) we do back the winners and (2) those winners are the least worst option. And once we've decided who that is, we need to give them all the support we can.
Surely it doesn't matter what you decide to do to defend yourself from potential terrorists, what you do to strike back in the situation (if even possible) and what you do to limit your own freedoms in the quest for "security".
Without addressing the fundamental problem then the situation will never go away. And the fundamental problem is a Personality Cult which is also a Death Cult where the recorded writings of the Dear Leader tell adherents that all non-adherents are "cattle", deserving of death and should be treated as if they were not human.
This belief drives and justifies all the problems associated with the Death Cult. Whether it is events like Paris, or the consistent, systematic rape of non-adherent children.
The Q'ran has little scope for interpretation on its ideology behind events like tonight. There is no "moderate" concept in Islam, there are only Muslims who are adherent and those who are less adherent. The solution has to be for anyone claiming to have moderate views to apostatise.
If the "writings" were so inflammatory as you suggest, why was this not such a big problem for 1400 years. OK you might suggest only the last few hundred years were relatively peaceful but then before that all religions/states were at it.
The new reality really started post 1980. The fanaticism of many [ still a small minority ] even later. But if only 1%/2% are fanatics, then that is a large number ! Also, they are mostly young !
The worrying thing is that most of these "nutters" are in the West. Why ? Even the young woman who serves you at the bank counter [ if such jobs actually exist anymore ] probably wears a scarf round her head. Interesting, her mother even demurely dressed probably did not follow the strict dress code. [ I am not saying wearing the hijab or scarf is itself the problem ]
Islam was pretty aggressive when it first started. It only stopped being aggressive when it was confronted and defeated and held back and when the Ottoman Empire weakened. Islam was only ever roughly peaceful when it was checked.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
That course of action will radicalise a few of those tolerant and liberal Muslims. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it, but we should be aware of that risk and try to out protections in place to guard against it.
One thing we should be doing is more firmly stressing the values of our country, and letting people know they should try to live within those values. If they do not share those values, perhaps they should leave rather than subject the rest of us to 'their' values.
And in a few cases that will affect religions other than Islam as well.
That's the precise topic I've written my Saturday piece about (I only finished it a few minutes ago which is why it's not gone up yet).
France has known such tragedies before, e.g. Oradour-sur-Glane on 10/6/1944, carried out by Christian soldiers, some of whom came from the German province of Alsace, now in France. The common factor is fanaticism, not the particular creed.
The West, and separately Russia, are killing many people in their bombing of ISIL-held territory in the Levant. These brutal attacks, and the recent downing of the Russian airliner, are merely retaliation. If one perpetrates total war, expect total war in return.
Nazis were Christian soldiers??! I've heard it all now. FFS!!!
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Mr. Herdson, I think that's political unrealistic. Huge outcry, Islamophobia, etc etc.
At the very least, we should have the method of slaughter on packaging, but I don't think even that will happen.
There's a gaping chasm between 'acceptable' opinions and actions needed to stamp on extremism and make it plain that British values trump all else.
We should also ban first cousin marriages. It's happening by the bucketload with those of Pakistani descent and leading to not only the importation of brides but a spike in children with learning difficulties.
Mr. Observer, agree it's young men, but it's not angry young Methodist men. Or the Zoroastrians.
On the other points, I agree with you and Mr. T, but fear that such things are not even on the agenda for almost the whole political and chattering class.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
Miss Cyclefree, excuses will be made about this. "If only France weren't bombing ISIS..." etc etc.
The lunatics who believe that have complexes of both superiority (we are the master faith!) and victimhood (everyone's picking on us).
On the other hand, given they're totally fucking insane, those are hardly the largest psychological problems they suffer.
At the risk of Godwinning, that duality is the precise mirror of why the Nazis picked on the Jews: "they're controlling and destroying everything" / "they're weak enough to be targets". The complexes are mutually reinforcing.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree - that may have to be the solution. Like you, I can't see another one right now. Forced liberalisation. Our values are better. They just are.
If you want a study of forced liberalisation, look at Turkey. The enforcing of a secular state forced some into more radical forms of Islam, and millions to do low-grade rebellion against the new laws.
The comments after the Guardian article (and indeed the article itself) make me feel physically sick.
Hundreds dead and all these left wing nut jobs, terrorist apologists and other Quislings can talk about is "poor Muslims".
The invasion of the West by radical Islam is only possible thanks to these apologists and sycophants who would rather leave their countries open to the very real evil of Islam's religious conquest.
If people within these communities want to disassociate themselves from the nasty aftertaste which is written in their scripture, the option is wide open for them to apostatise. Which, thanks to the open freedoms of the West they can actually do without penalty of death.
Hear hear, hundreds slaughtered and the Guardian is fretting over far right groups, whoever or wherever they are.
As usual I was posting on a previous thread after this opened, apologists and useless politicians are as guilty as the maniacs.
Numbers killed in backlash following Islamic terrorist atrocities in Europe?
Numbers killed in Islamic terrorist atrocities?
I think we all know where the balance lies.
Help me out here, are you in any way justifying the events in Paris?
No. I am pointing out that fears of a violent backlash are a complete red herring.
Thank you, I agree entirely. We pride ourselves on our tolerance, a tolerance that extends to inviting utterly intolerant people to come and live with us.
And that inviting in of such people has to stop now.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
But think of how much this will impact upon the good people of Norfolk!
The problem is that what is increasingly promoted as 'islam' from the middle east is now becoming incompatible with being any kind of loyal citizen of a democratic country (not just the UK) - and unfortunately that version of islam is becoming dominant.
I'm afraid British muslims are going to find themselves in the same position as catholics here did in the 16th/early 17th century.
Friday evening in Paris..one of the great cities of the world..some people went to watch a football game...some went out for an end of the week meal,why not..some of the younger element went to a rock concert..terrific great fun..some went out to kill..and were successful..They killed all of those people because they were of a different religion..The Muslim Faith is rapidly moving beyond the negotiating stage..time to get a grip boys...A new breed of politicians are waiting in the wings and they will not tolerate your religious crap anymore...
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
Just curious to know how you legally enforce that? It might be grounds for one of the parties to get out of a forced marriage, but unless someone informs the authorities, how do you police a family tree?
The Guardian Photo published for Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future
Muslims will increasingly fear being associated with terror; far-right groups may well fuel more hatred View on web
Interestingly the headline above and in the thread header has gone from the Guardian Online site. Most unusually the BBC paper round-up shows every paper except the Guardian. Unprecedented?
Mr. Herdson, I think that's political unrealistic. Huge outcry, Islamophobia, etc etc.
At the very least, we should have the method of slaughter on packaging, but I don't think even that will happen.
There's a gaping chasm between 'acceptable' opinions and actions needed to stamp on extremism and make it plain that British values trump all else.
We should also ban first cousin marriages. It's happening by the bucketload with those of Pakistani descent and leading to not only the importation of brides but a spike in children with learning difficulties.
Mr. Observer, agree it's young men, but it's not angry young Methodist men. Or the Zoroastrians.
On the other points, I agree with you and Mr. T, but fear that such things are not even on the agenda for almost the whole political and chattering class.
Until those who cry 'Islamophobia' are tackled when they don't have good cause then little progress will ever be made. At the very least, the ideas should be on the table.
You're right about first-cousin marriages, by the way. And where the culture is of first-cousin marriages, after a few generations, the genetic lines are so intertwined that people are effectively marrying siblings.
The UK has seen its share of zealots run off to join ISIS, and a number of attacks planned for here have been foiled.
(snip)
We have nutters, but they don's seem to be quite on the same scale as France - at least yet. The discontentment amongst Muslim youth does not seem to have reached anywhere near the scale it has in France. Although that could easily change.
In addition, it seems most western countries have had people try to travel to join IS, some in large numbers.
So here's a question: should we let them? Should we let anyone who wants to join IS to go - or even fly them there - and strip them of citizenship and any rights to return? Keep their DNA on a database and mark them as PNG, never to be allowed back in?
Visit Luton.
I think we've just got lucky so far, unlike the French.
Mr. Herdson, I think that's political unrealistic. Huge outcry, Islamophobia, etc etc.
At the very least, we should have the method of slaughter on packaging, but I don't think even that will happen.
There's a gaping chasm between 'acceptable' opinions and actions needed to stamp on extremism and make it plain that British values trump all else.
We should also ban first cousin marriages. It's happening by the bucketload with those of Pakistani descent and leading to not only the importation of brides but a spike in children with learning difficulties.
Mr. Observer, agree it's young men, but it's not angry young Methodist men. Or the Zoroastrians.
On the other points, I agree with you and Mr. T, but fear that such things are not even on the agenda for almost the whole political and chattering class.
There are lots of angry young men whose violence is chanelled or subdued. That's a challenge we can take on, surely. Saying they are Moslem so leave them to the hate preachers and/or deport them is not going to work in my view. We need to be more proactive. These communities are here and are not going away.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
You'd also have to ban Kosher meat. Personally I would ban both, religious nonsense of the highest order. But politically that becomes more difficult.
Out of interest, the halal ban in Sweden does not appear to have mad a huge difference to that country's attraction to Islamists.
Fine. Ban that too. Both are Health and Safety advice for the Middle East in a pre-industrial age.
Ref Sweden, its other attractions presumably outweigh the ban.
This is yet another reason why Sadiq Khan will not become London Mayor ...we Brits are indeed a tolerant bunch but we also have wise common sense too and having a Muslim Mayor is just a ''bridge too far ''on the road of tolerance and multiculturalism Europe is in the mist of an immigration crises that can only get worse in the spring as word gets out in the developing world that Europe has became a ''soft touch '' and has lost the will to enforce its own borders..we can expect millions of immigrants (mostly Moslem ) to opportunistically to GATE CRASH our borders coming through Turkey ; naturally the Turks will offer to close down or at least slow down this flow of humanity but naturally it will be for a high price ...they will blackmail us in good Turkish rug merchant style and we will have to pay an annual Turkish Danegeld to keep the flow to a manageable level ...the Third World has a decisive advantage , insomuch that they have the 'Population Bomb'' and are certain to use it against us !
Islam is not a religion of peace, the word means “submission to the will of G-d”, but nor is Christianity, as was exemplified by the atrocities carried out from 1939-45, particularly in Poland, by the most infamous Crusaders of the modern era.
Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets were motivated by Christian fanaticism.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree - that may have to be the solution. Like you, I can't see another one right now. Forced liberalisation. Our values are better. They just are.
If you want a study of forced liberalisation, look at Turkey. The enforcing of a secular state forced some into more radical forms of Islam, and millions to do low-grade rebellion against the new laws.
Yes, it has to be done carefully and with thought. But unlike in Turkey we are the majority.
The Guardian Photo published for Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future
Muslims will increasingly fear being associated with terror; far-right groups may well fuel more hatred View on web
Interestingly the headline above and in the thread header has gone from the Guardian Online site. Most unusually the BBC paper round-up shows every paper except the Guardian. Unprecedented?
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
But think of how much this will impact upon the good people of Norfolk!
A cousin would be considered a distant relative, even a stranger, to many in that area.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
I'm not so sure.
Sarkozy is very capable of playing the hardline tune on his flute when he has to. And, if he's up against Le Pen, he will receive virtually every tactical vote going.
Le Pen Will Never Be President Of The French Republic
Mr. Observer, I'm not saying 'leave them' I'm saying the crucial aspect is the religion, not the age or gender. That means the answer has to have a religious dimension, whether that's reasoning by sensible clerics or something else.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
Just curious to know how you legally enforce that? It might be grounds for one of the parties to get out of a forced marriage, but unless someone informs the authorities, how do you police a family tree?
How do we check that people aren't marrying siblings now?
There is always some confusion in reporting this and similar events. Sky is saying 120 killed, while CNN is reporting at least 153 have been killed. That's quite a disparity.
This is the EU trying to juggle the horrifying figures and make them as small as possible for internal propaganda. The truth is that there are almost 200 wounded, 80 very seriously and many will still die.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree - that may have to be the solution. Like you, I can't see another one right now. Forced liberalisation. Our values are better. They just are.
If Saddam Ghaddafi and Mubarak hadn't been deposed by allied action it's unlikely the carnage we're now seeing in Europe and the Middle East would be happening. Where there was weak government in the Arab world before-notably Lebanon-it existed because of fractured and weak leadership.
George Bush junior and his allies in trying to impose their world vision by force have created a Hell. What Paris is suffering now has been felt on a daily basis is the Arab world since Saddam was toppled. The depressing thing is not only how predictable it was but that it was predicted.
Indeed, emotion does cause a lot of problems in the discussion, I can assure you I'm not posting based on emotion, purely logic, at last as I see things,.
I agree with pretty much everything you've posted. Iran has always been a beacon in the Islamic world, a long term, stable democracy with male and female suffrage from the age of 15. The Saudi's have always been the most despotic, terror-funding, terror-running state in the region. Yet we let them be and create a hotbed for the most radical defence against any form of Reformation.
But there is a significantly long way to go before any brand of Islam is compatible with the established values of the West and accepting a multicultural solution for Islam inside Western Nations is doing nothing but importing problems.
I do think there is mileage in normalising relations with Iran. Our relationship has been dominated by 3 decades of mistrust following the manner in which the regime their came to power and their involvement in other ME countries - notably Lebanon. But they do appear to have been one of the most stable countries in the region and, as far as other religions is concerned, one of the most tolerant. There are active Christian and Jewish communities and the Government appears to take an active interest in protecting them from possible radicals.
Iran is clearly a long way from what we would consider a free and fair society but at the moment they are probably far and away the best ally we could develop in the region.
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
So when you've rounded up the millions of Moslems born and raised in France, where do you send them to and how do you force these countries to accept them?
As I've said before, the solution is not to "ban" any religion, instead we should slowly make life intolerable for hardcore Muslims. Close mosques, ban madrasas, eject mullahs, shut down sharia courts, prohibit burqas, impose drastic and severe sentences for spreading Islamism in any form whatsoever.
In the end the bad guys will just leave as we make it impossible for them to lead an "Islamic life", as they see it. The more tolerant and liberal Muslims will remain.
It won't be pretty but I fail to see any sane alternative.
What a dreadful morning.
I agree. To add to the list, ban halal meat on animal cruelty grounds (NickP?) and stop spousal imports from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem.
Clamp down on the 'incestuous' marriage of cousins too. (As a side effect that will have many health benefits).
Just curious to know how you legally enforce that? It might be grounds for one of the parties to get out of a forced marriage, but unless someone informs the authorities, how do you police a family tree?
How do we check that people aren't marrying siblings now?
I don't know. We have the technology, if we so chose. We could legislate for the Registrar to have power to require a DNA test of both bride and groom, at the time of getting the marriage licence.
Mr. Herdson, I think that's political unrealistic. Huge outcry, Islamophobia, etc etc.
At the very least, we should have the method of slaughter on packaging, but I don't think even that will happen.
There's a gaping chasm between 'acceptable' opinions and actions needed to stamp on extremism and make it plain that British values trump all else.
We should also ban first cousin marriages. It's happening by the bucketload with those of Pakistani descent and leading to not only the importation of brides but a spike in children with learning difficulties.
Mr. Observer, agree it's young men, but it's not angry young Methodist men. Or the Zoroastrians.
On the other points, I agree with you and Mr. T, but fear that such things are not even on the agenda for almost the whole political and chattering class.
Denmark banned Halal and Kosher slaughter back in July.
France has known such tragedies before, e.g. Oradour-sur-Glane on 10/6/1944, carried out by Christian soldiers, some of whom came from the German province of Alsace, now in France. The common factor is fanaticism, not the particular creed.
The West, and separately Russia, are killing many people in their bombing of ISIL-held territory in the Levant. These brutal attacks, and the recent downing of the Russian airliner, are merely retaliation. If one perpetrates total war, expect total war in return.
Utter bullshit. It is the Islamists who are perpetrating as close to total war as they can. The West's response is nothing like total war. If anything, the West's approach in Syria has been far too pusillanimous.
Do you expect a change, David?
Expect? Probably not. There is some serious thinking to be done about Syria because none of the options is good. One reason why the West has got itself into such a muddle there is because it doesn't really want any of the combatants to win. Yet as ultimately, one of them must, surely it is in our interests to ensure that (1) we do back the winners and (2) those winners are the least worst option. And once we've decided who that is, we need to give them all the support we can.
Why does there have to be 'one' winner? It's perfectly feasible for the state to be divided up into autonomous or semi-autonomous regions. An example of the latter are the Kurdish regions in Iraq.
There are problems with this: when this is done there are often mass population movements, either voluntary or forced. They happened with the Turks and Greeks in the 1920s, and in India and Pakistan in the 1950s. People die in the upheaval, which is why I'm very nervous about such a course of action.
However, there is already massive upheavals and regional instability. Trying to keep the sides apart instead of in one country *might* be a way forward. Note I am not including IS in this.
I've a feeling @Pong may have been taking about a dirty bet on Zac Goldsmith last night...
---------------------------------
Zac Goldsmith is sure to be the next Mayor of London
Zac Goldsmith is a liberal trust fund multimillionaire, UKIP will be the main beneficiaries not him. Khan may be a Muslim but he also looks tougher than Zac
Le Pen will be a shoo in...The French must be fed up with the liberal stance of its politicians so far..time to crack down..as in... if you don't like it here then leave.. Yes it does amount to banning a religion..but if the religion is a threat to the population then it has to change or get out.
I'm not so sure.
Sarkozy is very capable of playing the hardline tune on his flute when he has to. And, if he's up against Le Pen, he will receive virtually every tactical vote going.
Le Pen Will Never Be President Of The French Republic
"At the “Quiz a Muslim” event held last night in the Corn Exchange in Bedford, panelists called British values were “junk”, demanded that Muslims should “define” British law, and ominously, appeared to suggest Muslims were at war with the British.'
I've a feeling @Pong may have been taking about a dirty bet on Zac Goldsmith last night...
---------------------------------
Zac Goldsmith is sure to be the next Mayor of London
Zac Goldsmith is a liberal trust fund multimillionaire, UKIP will be the main beneficiaries not him. Khan may be a Muslim but he also looks tougher than Zac
==================
Londoners are not going to vote for a Muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn ...they have more common sense than that
Comments
O God, we pray for those who have been murdered on the streets of our city. We commit to your loving care those who have died, beseeching you to receive their souls into the mercy of your love. Comfort their loved ones who mourn. Enable them to meet the lonely and painful days ahead in the strength of your love. Let the love that you have made known to us lead us to create safer streets for all to walk upon. Amen.
Edit .. I think ST has something approaching a solution..unfortunately it is becoming a case of hard ball..and the Muslim populations in the West have to get to grips with the idea..The current situation is completely unacceptable...
What I dread now is the usual and frankly morally repulsive "this was bad but.....[insertion of piece of whataboutery of choice]" closely followed by stupid bits of gesture politics unsullied by tough thinking and even tougher actions.
I have family and friends in Paris. It is a city I have lived and worked in and love. What has happened is simply unbearable.
But in the modern world, this is a rare thing, despised by society. The major exception is Islamic extremism, so this is not a 'young man' problem, it's an Islamic extremism problem.
Mr. T, an interesting idea, but one that will never fly, I fear. [I know that's not very helpful, but there we are].
The lunatics who believe that have complexes of both superiority (we are the master faith!) and victimhood (everyone's picking on us).
On the other hand, given they're totally fucking insane, those are hardly the largest psychological problems they suffer.
Vive la France.
Why are you surprised? Such people have been doing this since the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, since the attacks in Kenya on the Cole, since 9/11, since 7/7 and so on. Look at the Islamic Human Rights Commission quoted on the BBC the other day which gave an award to Charlie Hebdo for being Islamophobes of the year and who joked about them not turning up to collect their award. Look at any Seamus Milne article.
There are no polite words to describe such people.
One thing we should be doing is more firmly stressing the values of our country, and letting people know they should try to live within those values. If they do not share those values, perhaps they should leave rather than subject the rest of us to 'their' values.
And in a few cases that will affect religions other than Islam as well.
Gerard Batten, who represents London and is member of the party's executive, told the Guardian on Tuesday that he stood by a "charter of Muslim understanding", which he commissioned in 2006.
The document asks Muslims to sign a declaration rejecting violence and says parts of the Qur'an that promote "violent physical Jihad" should be regarded as "inapplicable, invalid and non-Islamic".
Asked why Muslims have been singled out, rather than followers of other faiths, Batten said: "Christians aren't blowing people up at the moment, are they? Are there any bombs going off round the world claimed by Christian organisations? I don't think so."
Sadiq Khan, Labour's shadow London minister, said he was "appalled at the ignorance that Gerard Batten appears to have shown when speaking about the faith that I and hundreds of thousands of British Muslims practice".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/04/ukip-mep-gerard-batten-muslims-sign-charter-rejecting-violence
Out of interest, the halal ban in Sweden does not appear to have mad a huge difference to that country's attraction to Islamists.
Nazis were Christian soldiers??! I've heard it all now. FFS!!!
At the very least, we should have the method of slaughter on packaging, but I don't think even that will happen.
There's a gaping chasm between 'acceptable' opinions and actions needed to stamp on extremism and make it plain that British values trump all else.
We should also ban first cousin marriages. It's happening by the bucketload with those of Pakistani descent and leading to not only the importation of brides but a spike in children with learning difficulties.
Mr. Observer, agree it's young men, but it's not angry young Methodist men. Or the Zoroastrians.
On the other points, I agree with you and Mr. T, but fear that such things are not even on the agenda for almost the whole political and chattering class.
I'm afraid British muslims are going to find themselves in the same position as catholics here did in the 16th/early 17th century.
The Guardian has been beneath contempt for some time.
The Guardian
Photo published for Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future
Paris attacks leave France in trauma, fearing for the future
Muslims will increasingly fear being associated with terror; far-right groups may well fuel more hatred
View on web
Interestingly the headline above and in the thread header has gone from the Guardian Online site. Most unusually the BBC paper round-up shows every paper except the Guardian. Unprecedented?
You're right about first-cousin marriages, by the way. And where the culture is of first-cousin marriages, after a few generations, the genetic lines are so intertwined that people are effectively marrying siblings.
I think we've just got lucky so far, unlike the French.
Ref Sweden, its other attractions presumably outweigh the ban.
Europe is in the mist of an immigration crises that can only get worse in the spring as word gets out in the developing world that Europe has became a ''soft touch '' and has lost the will to enforce its own borders..we can expect millions of immigrants (mostly Moslem ) to opportunistically to GATE CRASH our borders coming through Turkey ; naturally the Turks will offer to close down or at least slow down this flow of humanity but naturally it will be for a high price ...they will blackmail us in good Turkish rug merchant style and we will have to pay an annual Turkish Danegeld to keep the flow to a manageable level ...the Third World has a decisive advantage , insomuch that they have the 'Population Bomb'' and are certain to use it against us !
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future?CMP=share_btn_tw
And it is still sub-headed about how we should all be sympathising with Muslims and how they feel today.
LPWNBPOTFR
Agreed.
George Bush junior and his allies in trying to impose their world vision by force have created a Hell. What Paris is suffering now has been felt on a daily basis is the Arab world since Saddam was toppled. The depressing thing is not only how predictable it was but that it was predicted.
Iran is clearly a long way from what we would consider a free and fair society but at the moment they are probably far and away the best ally we could develop in the region.
Zac Goldsmith is sure to be the next Mayor of London
There are problems with this: when this is done there are often mass population movements, either voluntary or forced. They happened with the Turks and Greeks in the 1920s, and in India and Pakistan in the 1950s. People die in the upheaval, which is why I'm very nervous about such a course of action.
However, there is already massive upheavals and regional instability. Trying to keep the sides apart instead of in one country *might* be a way forward. Note I am not including IS in this.
But it has costs.
Corbyn's embarassing Media Chief, Seumus Milne on Isis.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq …
http://www.breitbart.com/londo...
"At the “Quiz a Muslim” event held last night in the Corn Exchange in
Bedford, panelists called British values were “junk”, demanded that
Muslims should “define” British law, and ominously, appeared to suggest Muslims were at war with the British.'
Londoners are not going to vote for a Muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn ...they have more common sense than that