Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t you wish that this is how we should do politics in th

SystemSystem Posts: 12,221
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t you wish that this is how we should do politics in the UK?

Follow @MSmithsonPB

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536
    edited November 2015
    Edit: not really.

    Thirst?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Second
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    Actually yes.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    A UK attack ad on Labour would be more like this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4uivPpzCGo
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Attack ads? No thank you. Thankfully the EU were thwarted in their attempts to have these shoved down our throats on a regular basis!
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    I could always offer one on the reasons why HS2 is needed, or why we should build Boris Island, or why we should all move to Julian Dates, ;)

    But in all seriousness, that last article from Brind was derisory. It does not belong amongst the high-quality articles that appear regularly on PB. Many of which put the traditional media to shame.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    People might criticise without claiming they can do better. I found some merit in it, but you don't need to be capable of producing better in order to criticise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    RobD said:

    Attack ads? No thank you. Thankfully the EU were thwarted in their attempts to have these shoved down our throats on a regular basis!

    A close decision, wasn't it?

    As to the header question, No, No, No. We get by just fine (or not) without them, I cannot see what would be improved with it.
  • I think Jose is dreading hearing this mobile ringing this evening and finding the incoming number says it is Roman.
  • WTF...

    Anonymous protesters who refused to reveal identities to the courts set free

    Protesters who were among almost 50 people arrested following attacks on police and their horses have been told by magistrates to return to court next year - despite refusing to reveal their identities to police or the courts.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11981438/Anonymous-protesters-who-refused-to-reveal-identities-to-the-courts-set-free.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    I was in New England last October and I saw this advert:

    http://tinyurl.com/ph8xld5

    Not sure if it is fair but it seemed memorable and quite clever.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    I doubt he will - in fact the evidence suggests exactly the opposite. A couple of threads ago we established a reasonably long roll-call of those who had offered thread headers and been repeatedly ignored.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    kle4 said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    People might criticise without claiming they can do better. I found some merit in it, but you don't need to be capable of producing better in order to criticise.
    That's a fair view. But perhaps personal criticism is not the same as disagreement. Anyway, I almost always favour "active" over "passive". For instance that's why I have never had a tele.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2015
    The headline makes my head hurt! Does it make sense?
  • Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    GeoffM said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    I doubt he will - in fact the evidence suggests exactly the opposite. A couple of threads ago we established a reasonably long roll-call of those who had offered thread headers and been repeatedly ignored.
    When one publishes a paper in a reputable journal he/she will be refereed. It can be brutal.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    tlg86 said:

    I was in New England last October and I saw this advert:

    http://tinyurl.com/ph8xld5

    Not sure if it is fair but it seemed memorable and quite clever.

    It's actually quite subtle and subdued. Many of them - and close to primaries or elections the airwaves are saturated with them - are ill-disguised hatchet jobs and extremely unsubtle.

    I'm sure that as we approach the S.E.C. Primary I'll be subjected to a torrent of them. So far not so much.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.

    So there's hope for me then?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I happen to find Don's pieces very interesting. It shows what's really behind the impartial masks put on display by BBC journalists.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.

    Quite right Mike. I almost never agree with anything Don says but a range of different views is essential if we are to keep a range of voices. (Wish Henry would chip in a bit more often though).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Apologies to Lucky on the last thread - meant to grumble about Speedy!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    WTF...

    Anonymous protesters who refused to reveal identities to the courts set free

    Protesters who were among almost 50 people arrested following attacks on police and their horses have been told by magistrates to return to court next year - despite refusing to reveal their identities to police or the courts.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11981438/Anonymous-protesters-who-refused-to-reveal-identities-to-the-courts-set-free.html

    That in itself is an offence. Don't understand this at all.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Attack ads? No thank you. Thankfully the EU were thwarted in their attempts to have these shoved down our throats on a regular basis!

    A close decision, wasn't it?

    As to the header question, No, No, No. We get by just fine (or not) without them, I cannot see what would be improved with it.
    Lol - hear hear. The ad would make me vote the other way, out of sheer perversity.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    Ok, since I seem to be in a minority here this is my thinking.

    Firstly, I don't like the fact that our top politicians have no or very little experience in anything except politics.

    Secondly, I think that public service, whether in the armed forces or the NHS or in Education is something that deserves credit.

    Thirdly, I think that sleezebags should get called out and named and shamed. We frankly deserve better.

    Fourthly, I thought it was quite funny. Our PEBs are just stunningly dull and pointless. I can't remember a half decent one since Kinnock.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.

    It's great to have a Labour perspective on how events will unfold and the implications for betting. That's what NickPalmer does when he writes. The problem with Brind is that he doesn't write in that context: he writes to push Labour talking points and messages, and does so with endless digs at their political opponents. David Herdson does not do that. TSE does that in comments, but not in his main articles.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Attack ads? No thank you. Thankfully the EU were thwarted in their attempts to have these shoved down our throats on a regular basis!

    A close decision, wasn't it?

    As to the header question, No, No, No. We get by just fine (or not) without them, I cannot see what would be improved with it.
    Lol - hear hear. The ad would make me vote the other way, out of sheer perversity.
    I remember those awful 10 minute PPBs which were on every channel. I'd sooner have 30 second commercials I could change channel from or just endure. They're certainly more entertaining.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    tlg86 said:

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I happen to find Don's pieces very interesting. It shows what's really behind the impartial masks put on display by BBC journalists.
    Like Laura Kuensberg giving advice to the Labour PR guy about how to improve his messaging?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    DavidL said:

    Ok, since I seem to be in a minority here this is my thinking.

    Firstly, I don't like the fact that our top politicians have no or very little experience in anything except politics.

    Secondly, I think that public service, whether in the armed forces or the NHS or in Education is something that deserves credit.

    Thirdly, I think that sleezebags should get called out and named and shamed. We frankly deserve better.

    Fourthly, I thought it was quite funny. Our PEBs are just stunningly dull and pointless. I can't remember a half decent one since Kinnock.

    The current system means you can't just buy tons of advertising space. All that money we PB Tories get from squeezing every penny from the poor would be used to fill your commercial breaks with attack ads :D
  • DavidL said:

    Ok, since I seem to be in a minority here this is my thinking.

    Firstly, I don't like the fact that our top politicians have no or very little experience in anything except politics.

    Secondly, I think that public service, whether in the armed forces or the NHS or in Education is something that deserves credit.

    Thirdly, I think that sleezebags should get called out and named and shamed. We frankly deserve better.

    Fourthly, I thought it was quite funny. Our PEBs are just stunningly dull and pointless. I can't remember a half decent one since Kinnock.

    The last decent PEB was the Dave the Chameleon one.

    In our country we take notice more of the posters than the PEBs.

    I think the poster of Ed Miliband in the pocket of Alex Salmond was more devastating than any attack ad ever could be.
  • JEO said:

    Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.

    It's great to have a Labour perspective on how events will unfold
    That is what I watch BBC news for...
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Apologies to Lucky on the last thread - meant to grumble about Speedy!

    Fortunate that neither is Lord Lawson or you'd have forgotten who they were entirely.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    JEO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I happen to find Don's pieces very interesting. It shows what's really behind the impartial masks put on display by BBC journalists.
    Like Laura Kuensberg giving advice to the Labour PR guy about how to improve his messaging?
    To be fair I wouldn't like to call out any of the current crop of BBC journalists - but I would be very surprised to see any BBC journo come on to a site like this and put forward a very pro Tory point of view.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, since I seem to be in a minority here this is my thinking.

    Firstly, I don't like the fact that our top politicians have no or very little experience in anything except politics.

    Secondly, I think that public service, whether in the armed forces or the NHS or in Education is something that deserves credit.

    Thirdly, I think that sleezebags should get called out and named and shamed. We frankly deserve better.

    Fourthly, I thought it was quite funny. Our PEBs are just stunningly dull and pointless. I can't remember a half decent one since Kinnock.

    The current system means you can't just buy tons of advertising space. All that money we PB Tories get from squeezing every penny from the poor would be used to fill your commercial breaks with attack ads :D
    Yeah, I get that and I would not want our politics to become as money dominated as the US is. I also take @TSE's point that a good poster can strike home. But why are our PEBs so dull? Tell us your best point and cut the schmooze, nobody believes it.
  • tlg86 said:

    JEO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I happen to find Don's pieces very interesting. It shows what's really behind the impartial masks put on display by BBC journalists.
    Like Laura Kuensberg giving advice to the Labour PR guy about how to improve his messaging?
    To be fair I wouldn't like to call out any of the current crop of BBC journalists - but I would be very surprised to see any BBC journo come on to a site like this and put forward a very pro Tory point of view.
    Well Craig Oliver isn't on anybodies Christmas Card list at the BBC anymore...
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Toms said:

    GeoffM said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    I doubt he will - in fact the evidence suggests exactly the opposite. A couple of threads ago we established a reasonably long roll-call of those who had offered thread headers and been repeatedly ignored.
    When one publishes a paper in a reputable journal he/she will be refereed. It can be brutal.
    You're not really following what's being said, are you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    Free speech means free speech.

    Attack adverts should be allowed in the UK. It's an utter disgrace that so many people who claim to espouse freedom of speech deny it as part of the political process.
  • Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3
  • David Cameron nor ruling out leaving the EU according to the Guardian. That would be an interesting change of position
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685

    David Cameron nor ruling out leaving the EU according to the Guardian. That would be an interesting change of position

    If you want to achieve your renegotiation goals, you need people on the other side of the fence to see you as credible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".
  • Shadsy is still offering 200/1 on Cameron leading the leave campaign.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,539
    edited November 2015
    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    But but but but Labour told us that the Freeman one was a massive hit, with billions of people watching it on Youtube...A game changer...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    rcs1000 said:

    Free speech means free speech.

    Attack adverts should be allowed in the UK. It's an utter disgrace that so many people who claim to espouse freedom of speech deny it as part of the political process.

    They are not being denied the opportunity to say whatever negative things they like, within the law. Just not on the TV. Were they not able to make stupid, negative attacks at all, your argument might be more convincing.

    Given they are able to make attacking points in many other ways, I think not having them on one medium at least is a reasonable compromise between permitting bombardment of people with crap while still allowing the parties to be negative.
  • rcs1000 said:

    David Cameron nor ruling out leaving the EU according to the Guardian. That would be an interesting change of position

    If you want to achieve your renegotiation goals, you need people on the other side of the fence to see you as credible.
    Absolutely
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    Best party political broadcast ever has to be this one:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RnbLqM1EUE
  • Shadsy is still offering 200/1 on Cameron leading the leave campaign.

    I don't bet but those seem generous odds
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Wait, I remember another of the PEBS. The LD one about looking left , then right, then crossing. The sort of message that worked for me, but not for many other people it would seem. I seem to recall some joke that the video actually showed no right turn option, or that crossing took the car into what looked like a pedestrian area or something.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Free speech means free speech.

    Attack adverts should be allowed in the UK. It's an utter disgrace that so many people who claim to espouse freedom of speech deny it as part of the political process.

    They are not being denied the opportunity to say whatever negative things they like, within the law. Just not on the TV. Were they not able to make stupid, negative attacks at all, your argument might be more convincing.

    Given they are able to make attacking points in many other ways, I think not having them on one medium at least is a reasonable compromise between permitting bombardment of people with crap while still allowing the parties to be negative.
    What is wrong with selling politics like soap powder or tooth paste?
  • MP_SE said:

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
    That sounds like serious reform if it happens. I'm curious what you define then as reform if not being involved with further integration is not part of it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    MP_SE said:

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
    Nevertheless, by publishing his list of demands - even if you feel they are inadequate - he is doing what a great many people said he would not do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited November 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    Best party political broadcast ever has to be this one:

    "The most fundamental need today in the field of government is to create integration in collective consciousness and dissolve the high levels of stress in society"

    Ok, odd start, but I'm listening...what the...transcendental meditation?...is that man doing gymnastic yoga?...well, maybe it's not too craz...what's that..."only the natural law party can strengthen the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and at the same time create a real union of the european nations"? Nutters
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    What about the 2010 LibDem one about No More Broken Promises and in the same broadcast No Tuition Fees?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTLR8R9JXz4
  • I think political parties should be allowed to say what they want (and pay for it to be on TV as often as they want) so long as it doesn't violate libel laws etc

    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else and then we pretend Party Election Broadcasts are all that exist.

    Allow American style free speech.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
    Nevertheless, by publishing his list of demands - even if you feel they are inadequate - he is doing what a great many people said he would not do.
    Is this is a courageous decision by the PM? I'd have thought he'd only set out things he thinks are in the bag - but maybe he is genuinely thinking about recommending an out vote. I know PB can get quite bogged down in the arguments about EFTA and the EEA, but this is starting to get quite interesting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited November 2015



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
  • I think political parties should be allowed to say what they want (and pay for it to be on TV as often as they want) so long as it doesn't violate libel laws etc

    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else and then we pretend Party Election Broadcasts are all that exist.

    Allow American style free speech.

    The Supreme Court of the United States ruled a while back that companies giving vast amounts in political donations was free speech, that decision concerned me on a few levels.

    I'd hate to see that happen over here.

    The money isn't used as a race to the top, but sadly as a race to the bottom.
  • Don Brind brings balance and a great level of insight about Labour to the site's regular contributor team. The other main regulars, TSE and David Herdson, both make it clear that they are Tory activists and what they write has to be read in that context.

    Don's background is as a professional political journalist and Labour campaigner and he brings a lot.

    I want as broad a range of guest slot writers as possible.

    The difference is that TSE and David's posts read like they were written by TSE and David and show their independent thought and don't read like Party Political Broadcasts by the Conservative Party. There are a number of Labour supporters on this site like Southam that show a similar level of thought.

    The other difference is that TSE and David engage below the line. I don't see Don engaging, he just writes his spin and disappears whereas David and TSE (and other guests) generally engage with responses to what they have written.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    Cameron would not be doing this if he had not already been told that this was doable. He does not want to be fighting for out so he will not be asking for things he isn't going to get.

    It is an interesting development. It suggests a lot more progress than has been apparent to date.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    I think political parties should be allowed to say what they want (and pay for it to be on TV as often as they want) so long as it doesn't violate libel laws etc

    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else and then we pretend Party Election Broadcasts are all that exist.

    Allow American style free speech.

    Yup yup.

    The only drawback is that to purchase commercial time on TV will increase the cost of campaigns.

    Otherwise it's all positive.
  • kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
    Nevertheless, by publishing his list of demands - even if you feel they are inadequate - he is doing what a great many people said he would not do.
    Would a four year ban on benefits also include being excluded from council housing and JSA?

    I'm really worried if a four year ban is all we get on immigration. I'm not convinced it would make much effect - Eastern Europeans I know often plan to spend a decade here or more. I'd really like to hear someone argue the case that it'll make the sort of reduction we need. I'm glad we're keeping in the push to get some sort of double QMV system for protecting non-EU members from the Eurozone. That's absolutely essential.

    The votes for 16 year olds is a joke though. We absolutely should not give way on that, especially when the Lords pushing it are from parties that lost the last election, including one that got decimated. The proposal was put in manifestos and lost an election. What's even more unreasonable is that Labour and the Liberal Democrats didn't even support a referendum, so why they should be deciding the electorate for it is beyond me.

    It would be also giving away the argument for 16 year olds voting in general elections in future, and would seriously harm conservative prospects for a long, long time. Complete madness if Cameron signs up for it to get a bigger pro-EU majority. I might even resign my membership of the conservative party if he adopts it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    Best party political broadcast ever has to be this one:

    "The most fundamental need today in the field of government is to create integration in collective consciousness and dissolve the high levels of stress in society"

    Ok, odd start, but I'm listening...what the...transcendental meditation?...is that man doing gymnastic yoga?...well, maybe it's not too craz...what's that..."only the natural law party can strengthen the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and at the same time create a real union of the european nations"? Nutters
    No one today is offering a proper policy platform based around yogic flying.

    Hey: maybe that's the niche for the LibDems.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Our PEBs are dull, I suppose. I only recall two recent ones, I think. There was that awful Freeman one for Labour ("I vote Labour because I was raised to be decent. You want to be decent too, don't you?"), and another one even vaguer with a clock, I think, being smashed, which I think was a Tory one about not ruining a good thing or something.

    Oh, and the Green party musical number one, which was definitely not boring. I loved that one. "It's sweeter, when we all agree, a party political harmony".

    Best party political broadcast ever has to be this one:

    "The most fundamental need today in the field of government is to create integration in collective consciousness and dissolve the high levels of stress in society"

    Ok, odd start, but I'm listening...what the...transcendental meditation?...is that man doing gymnastic yoga?...well, maybe it's not too craz...what's that..."only the natural law party can strengthen the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and at the same time create a real union of the european nations"? Nutters
    No one today is offering a proper policy platform based around yogic flying.

    Hey: maybe that's the niche for the LibDems.
    Nahhh. Too popular.

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    MP_SE said:

    Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    Cameron is doing this for the domestic audience. The EU bureacrats and leaders know Cameron's position.

    Serious UK only reform is not possible. We will be offered associate membership whilst the Eurozone integrates further.
    Surely you do not expect the UK to prevent the Euro zone from further integration. Economically it makes perfect sense.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
    The logic of this is that they do it anyway on social media etc so it makes sense to stop them doing it on the TV?

    Ehh...why?
  • JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    "Some peoples idea of free speech is they are free to say anything they like. However, if anyone says anything back then that is an outrage"

    Winston S Churchill.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited November 2015
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
    The logic of this is that they do it anyway on social media etc so it makes sense to stop them doing it on the TV?

    Ehh...why?
    It's a question of if there is an argument to change the status quo.

    If it were already allowed on TV, it would be hard to defend stopping it just because it happens elsewhere. Since it doesn't happen on TV, and it is defended for what has been considered good reasons to do so, what benefit is there to permitting it? And it is then that it happening elsewhere is relevant, because a free speech argument falls flat.

    We are not diminished by it not being permitted at present. Therefore, to change, the case needs to be made, I think, as to how it will advance us.
  • Part of the 82nd Airborne Division was quartered on Leicester racecourse during the war, very close to the village of Oadby, where I grew up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
    The logic of this is that they do it anyway on social media etc so it makes sense to stop them doing it on the TV?

    Ehh...why?
    It's a question of if there is an argument to change the status quo.

    If it were already allowed on TV, it would be hard to defend stopping it just because it happens elsewhere. Since it doesn't happen on TV, and it is defended for what has been considered good reasons to do so, what benefit is there to permitting it? And it is then that it happening elsewhere is relevant, because a free speech argument falls flat.

    We are not diminished by it not being permitted at present. Therefore, to change, the case needs to be made, I think, as to how it will advance us.
    Maybe I've had too much wine...that makes no sense to me whatsoever.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    And giving kids the vote will need a lot more justification than "it will help my party". An argument for giving 16 year olds the vote is that they can pay income tax. But if that is the criteria we should only give the vote to people who have paid a certain amount of income tax in the period prior to the election. I think 18 seems about right - perhaps we should have a referendum on whether to change it?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    No-one is being denied a vote they currently have. What is happening here is that Labour and the Liberal Democrats are trying to give the vote to children because it helps their parties. And Cameron is considering 'accepting' it because it will help the side he supports in the EU referendum. It's incredibly short termist thinking.

    We don't allow 16 year olds to go to war, we don't allow them to buy cigarettes, we don't allow them to buy alcohol, we don't even allow them to leave school. And, unsurprisingly, schoolchildren that have never lived in the real world vote for fantasy economics. They can have a vote when they finish their education and become adults.
  • kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    Just because a dozen or so can look good on TV does not mean as an entire cohort they vote in an informed manner. 19% support the Greens, for goodness sake! They're barmy.
  • JEO said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    No-one is being denied a vote they currently have. What is happening here is that Labour and the Liberal Democrats are trying to give the vote to children because it helps their parties. And Cameron is considering 'accepting' it because it will help the side he supports in the EU referendum. It's incredibly short termist thinking.

    We don't allow 16 year olds to go to war, we don't allow them to buy cigarettes, we don't allow them to buy alcohol, we don't even allow them to leave school. And, unsurprisingly, schoolchildren that have never lived in the real world vote for fantasy economics. They can have a vote when they finish their education and become adults.
    No-one is being denied a vote they currently have.

    By that logic we should have never granted women the vote.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    Yep they did. My daughter amongst them. I was strongly opposed and now am strongly in favour.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015
    tlg86 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    And giving kids the vote will need a lot more justification than "it will help my party". An argument for giving 16 year olds the vote is that they can pay income tax. But if that is the criteria we should only give the vote to people who have paid a certain amount of income tax in the period prior to the election. I think 18 seems about right - perhaps we should have a referendum on whether to change it?
    At the very least, any move to include 16 year olds in the franchise should be done after a long national conversation and extensive parliamentary debate and be brought in for the general election after next. It certainly should not be rushed in due to the childish politicking of unelected Lords from parties that lost the last election, in order to gain advantage in one particular plebiscite. It would be a reckless vandalism of our constitution to do it in such a backhanded and rushed manner.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    Fine, take away the automatic right to vote. Make people take a test to make sure they actually have some understanding of politics.
  • DavidL said:

    Cameron would not be doing this if he had not already been told that this was doable. He does not want to be fighting for out so he will not be asking for things he isn't going to get.

    It is an interesting development. It suggests a lot more progress than has been apparent to date.

    I think that that is spot on. This is about dealing with the internal politics of the blue team

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders

    Some 14 year olds are probably eloquent too. Should we lower the vote for them?

  • JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    How about "because they're children".

    Can't sign up for a credit card, can't sign a contract without parental consent, can't vote. Entirely consistent and sensible to set the age of voting as being the age of maturity.
  • DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    Yep they did. My daughter amongst them. I was strongly opposed and now am strongly in favour.
    Of independence of 16-17 years olds voting?

  • kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    You can campaign at any age, only adults get a vote though, quite appropriately. If you're going to allow children the vote then why draw the line at 16, why not 15?
  • Game changer

    David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.

    Turning up the pressure on the other 27 EU heads of state, the prime minister will formally table his list of demands – including a four-year ban on EU migrants claiming in-work benefits after entering the UK – in a letter to European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday. It will mark the start of months of detailed negotiations involving senior representatives of all EU governments, ahead of the promised in/out referendum on UK membership before the end of 2017.

    http://bit.ly/1MhKaX3

    All very predictable. It was only a matter of timing. I had expected him to do this a bit further into the campaign. You are absolutely right with the use of the word 'game'. That is exactly what this is to Cameron and he is playing to a carefully choreographed script. At some point we will see the EU countries 'reluctantly agree' to his demands - knowing all along that they are meaningless and will effectively change nothing about our relationship with the EU.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    How about "because they're children".

    Can't sign up for a credit card, can't sign a contract without parental consent, can't vote. Entirely consistent and sensible to set the age of voting as being the age of maturity.
    Can get married, have children, and die for their country...

    Used to be able to smoke too.

    I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to have a "single age of adulthood". (And we can then discuss what it should be.) It seems bizarre to have several different ones.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders
    Yep they did. My daughter amongst them. I was strongly opposed and now am strongly in favour.
    Of independence of 16-17 years olds voting?

    What do you think Mike? My daughter pounded the streets canvassing and leafleting for the Union but to be honest her commitment made it obvious that people of that age have a lot to contribute to our politics whichever view they took.

    I think there is maybe an argument that yes no issues are easier than other elections but I think we need to encourage our young to take part if our politics is going to engage the next generation.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    16 year olds are stupid. Probably not a good argument to use, but it feels true (for info, I didn't think I should have the vote at 16 when I was 16).

    I also think this call for 16 year olds voting is bizarre as we seem to infantilize young people more and more.

    However, the door was opened with the IndyRef. If they could vote in that, I see no reason they cannot vote in everything.
    I was opposed to 16 and 17 year olds having the vote but then I saw the indyref, and some of the most mature and elegant campaigners in the indyref were 16 and 17 year olds.

    They shamed some of their elders

    Some 14 year olds are probably eloquent too. Should we lower the vote for them?

    Proxy votes for pregnant mothers?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015

    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    No-one is being denied a vote they currently have. What is happening here is that Labour and the Liberal Democrats are trying to give the vote to children because it helps their parties. And Cameron is considering 'accepting' it because it will help the side he supports in the EU referendum. It's incredibly short termist thinking.

    We don't allow 16 year olds to go to war, we don't allow them to buy cigarettes, we don't allow them to buy alcohol, we don't even allow them to leave school. And, unsurprisingly, schoolchildren that have never lived in the real world vote for fantasy economics. They can have a vote when they finish their education and become adults.
    No-one is being denied a vote they currently have.

    By that logic we should have never granted women the vote.
    The case is to be made by those advocating the change, not for those opposing it. Women deserved the vote because the case was successfully made that they were as capable of decision making as men. But schoolchildren, as an entire cohort, aren't as capable of decision making as adults. That's why we require them to stay in school to learn some more, and don't trust them to make decisions around tobacco and alcohol. In fact we have been raising the age of those things in recent years, as increasing research shows just how much more development in decision making ability young brains need.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited November 2015
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
    The logic of this is that they do it anyway on social media etc so it makehy?
    It's a question of if there is an argument to change the status quo.

    If it were already allowed on TV, it would be hard to defend stopping it just because it happens elsewhere. Since it doesn't happen on TV, and it is defended for what has been considered good reasons to do so, what benefit is there to permitting it? And it is then that it happening elsewhere is relevant, because a free speech argument falls flat.

    We are not s.
    Maybe I've had too much wine...that makes no sense to me whatsoever.
    I'll admit writing on the fly with half formed thoughts is not always the best for clear arguments, but surely it is about different burdens being placed on different situations - demanding something be taken away requires a higher level of argument than demanding something be added.

    The status quo has been legally defended as acceptable. Therefore to change it one needs to make a very good case as to why changing it would benefit us. But if the status quo were that it was permitted, as you postulated, then I accept 'it happens elsewhere' would not be enough to justify taking it away. But your scenario is not the one we have, and lacking the free speech argument, 'I prefer attack ads', is not much of a case on its own. If a majority voted for it I'd argue but accept it though.


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    rcs1000 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    How about "because they're children".

    Can't sign up for a credit card, can't sign a contract without parental consent, can't vote. Entirely consistent and sensible to set the age of voting as being the age of maturity.
    Can get married, have children, and die for their country...

    Used to be able to smoke too.

    I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to have a "single age of adulthood". (And we can then discuss what it should be.) It seems bizarre to have several different ones.
    45 :) ?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    GeoffM said:

    Toms said:

    GeoffM said:

    Toms said:

    Toms said:

    It's possible to disagree with an article without throwing a fit like Lucky about this one - makes the reception for Don Brind look positively amicable. People write these articles to give us something to talk about. They get £0 out of it. Let's be a little friendlier, huh?

    I do agree with Christie being a long shot - he would appeal to a sector of the electorate that is probably not really going to vote GOP. But he has an interesting friend...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/07/live_from_new_york__trump_christie_on_snl.html

    Has Lucky posted on this thread? I can't find it ...
    From the recent Brind thread, Lucky said the following, which opinion I hugely don't share:

    "---But this is nothing more than a hit peice with the merest of nods toward the purpose of this site. It doesn't belong here."
    To be fair, that was mild compared to what I said about Brind's diarrhoteic pesudo-rhetoric. ;)
    Well, I expect OGH will be pleased to receive some suggested essays by those who think they can do better than Don Brind.
    I doubt he will - in fact the evidence suggests exactly the opposite. A couple of threads ago we established a reasonably long roll-call of those who had offered thread headers and been repeatedly ignored.
    When one publishes a paper in a reputable journal he/she will be refereed. It can be brutal.
    You're not really following what's being said, are you.
    Look in a mirror.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    How about "because they're children".

    Can't sign up for a credit card, can't sign a contract without parental consent, can't vote. Entirely consistent and sensible to set the age of voting as being the age of maturity.
    Can get married, have children, and die for their country...

    Used to be able to smoke too.

    I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to have a "single age of adulthood". (And we can then discuss what it should be.) It seems bizarre to have several different ones.
    You're wrong on two out of three of those. They can't get married without parental consent, because they're not old enough to make an informed choice. And they're banned from fighting in the armed forces until 18, so they can't die for their country either.

    So the only one you've got is having children, and I don't exactly think those having kids at 16 are a great example of rational decision making that the vote should be entrusted with.

    For goodness sake, we've had a summer of kids this age going off to fight for ISIS, and us being told that they're victims too, because they're easily brainwashed at such a young age.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    A four year qualification period for benefits will make a difference not only on welfare handouts - but in indirect areas like schools, GPs, hospitals and housing.

    I'd imagine that many wealthy northern, western European nations will be keen.

    If that leads to a labour shortage, business will relocate work to cheaper areas, and then we will end with a European Minimum Wage as the wealthier countries seek redress for lost employment.

    Ultimately, all roads lead to harmonisation.
  • JEO said:

    According to the Telegraph, 39% of 'young people' (I think that means 16-18 year olds) would vote Labour and 19% would vote Green, compared to just 22% for the Conservatives:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11664399/Letting-16-year-olds-vote-in-the-EU-referendum-would-be-a-car-crash.html

    Letting children vote just gives a big boost to Corbynism and a big kick to the Conservative party, as it would inevitably follow in a general election. Cameron would be shooting the party in the foot if he gave way on this.

    Denying people the vote will need stronger justification than "it damages my party"
    How about we should only give them the vote if we also give them the right to sign contracts, buy alcohol and do everything else an adult can do? Would you be happy signing a legally binding contract with a 16 year old?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:



    The notion that there aren't attack ads in 21st Century Britain is just denial. The amount of vitriol and bile that can be shared on Facebook or Twitter without any nod to Ofcom or anyone else

    That's the point - we don't need it on TV as well then, and their speech is not stifled. So adding more to TV doesn't add anything, without denying us that aspect of free speech.
    If we didn't need it on TV then it could be legalised and the parties wouldn't bother. Do we want 21st century politics to be primarily restricted to whatever can gain Shares on Facebook?
    I simply meant that people cannot claim we don't allow negative ads, that somehow we are restricting speech, and that isn't the case. By 'not needing' it on TV I just mean it adds nothing new to our political discourse, which is an argument that could be made on free speech grounds if we had no negative attacks allowed anywhere.

    So if we legalised it, of course there would be some use by the parties, I just see no benefit to our politics in doing so, and since they can be negative elsewhere, no negatives to not allowing it.
    The logic of this is that they do it anyway on social media etc so it makehy?
    It's a question of if there is an argument to change the status quo.

    If it were already allowed on TV, it would be hard to defend stopping it just because it happens elsewhere. Since it doesn't happen on TV, and it is defended for what has been considered good reasons to do so, what benefit is there to permitting it? And it is then that it happening elsewhere is relevant, because a free speech argument falls flat.

    We are not s.
    Maybe I've had too much wine...that makes no sense to me whatsoever.
    I'll admit writing on the fly with half formed thoughts is not always the best for clear arguments, but surely it is about different burdens being placed on different situations - demanding something be taken away requires a higher level of argument than demanding something be added.

    The status quo has been legally defended as acceptable. Therefore to change it one needs to make a very good case as to why changing it would benefit us. But if the status quo were that it was permitted, as you postulated, then I accept 'it happens elsewhere' would not be enough to justify taking it away. But your scenario is not the one we have, and lacking the free speech argument, 'I prefer attack ads', is not much of a case on its own. If a majority voted for it I'd argue but accept it though.


    Thanks. That's a lot clearer.
This discussion has been closed.