Here's a question: when I lived in London from 1991 to 1995, there were still a few places you could, if you looked carefully, find bomb sites (from memory the Stepney / Bow areas).
Are there any areas of WWII damage left now, or have they all been redeveloped or re-redeveloped?
I doubt it, real estate values being what they are. There was probably a decent case for leaving at least a small site untouched as an historical artifact.
Of course parts of Clydebank still look like bomb sites.
My parents drove across East Germany in the 70s and visited Russia before the Olympics in 1980. They came back full of tales of trading with suitcases full of Levis, biros and lipsticks. Re the Olympics - the women's teams often looked remarkably like men or covered in bruises from training very hard.
In the early 80s I went on a study tour of the Soviet Union with the University. It would be fair to say most of the participants were committed communists who genuinely believed they had seen the future. Most had been to East Germany and were convinced that it was greatly superior to Western Germany which was inevitably going to collapse along with the rest of the west.
As someone who had seen the Berlin wall in the 1970s as well as the fences built across the beautiful Harz mountains like an ugly scar facing in the way with mines, barbed wire and armed sentries on patrol to prevent their people from leaving I thought this was completely absurd and some lively debates ensued but what it showed was that even seeing it for yourself is not enough to change opinions if your mind is closed. That is at least one of Corbyn's problems.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
How old are you Dair? Those of us who lived through the 1970s will not recognise that description at all.
It's early but .... The next Labour PM may not even be a gleam in Jeremy Corbyn's and Diane Abbott's eyes ....
Discussing Ugandan Affairs Changing Trains at Baker Street....
The things you learn on PB.com!
Change at Baker Street is quite a different euphemism than Ugandan affairs or the proposed East German motorcycle trip.
It has a very specific meaning.
Baker St is not the only stop that you can change from the Hammersmith and City line to the Bakerloo though... Paddington & Edgware Rd are on both as well
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
Nonsense. Great chunks of the GDR remained bomb sites. There were plenty in East Berlin at the time of reunification with the West.
I've not seen evidence of this but obviously it may have been suppressed. I do recall a documentary some years back that indicated that areas were just paved over (a huge part of East Berlin they couldn't decide what to do with. That in itself would look far better than the rubble strewn wastelands throughout British cities (not just from bomb sites but from urban clearances too).
It is also likely that the areas tourists were allowed to go were pretty much free from this (similar to the way they had specific shops for tourists in most of Eastern Europe).
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So Dair supports communism, which is not surprising. Was he however a Stasi spy himself?
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
IIRC that was more "slum clearance" (and silly urban motorways) than bomb damage. Still not pretty though.
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
Let me tell you, even then they didn't look that great.
In the early 80s I went on a study tour of the Soviet Union with the University. It would be fair to say most of the participants were committed communists who genuinely believed they had seen the future. Most had been to East Germany and were convinced that it was greatly superior to Western Germany which was inevitably going to collapse along with the rest of the west.
As someone who had seen the Berlin wall in the 1970s as well as the fences built across the beautiful Harz mountains like an ugly scar facing in the way with mines, barbed wire and armed sentries on patrol to prevent their people from leaving I thought this was completely absurd and some lively debates ensued but what it showed was that even seeing it for yourself is not enough to change opinions if your mind is closed. That is at least one of Corbyn's problems.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
I was at Uni in the 1980s and we had exchange students for 6 weeks from the Societ Union.
Gifted, convinced communists, coming with food so as to spend the currency on consumer goods, introduced me to the term "political economy" which seems to be breeding in our system as economics with politics where the thinking used to be, and well briefed to compare the Komsomol to the Scout movement.
Here's a question: when I lived in London from 1991 to 1995, there were still a few places you could, if you looked carefully, find bomb sites (from memory the Stepney / Bow areas).
Are there any areas of WWII damage left now, or have they all been redeveloped or re-redeveloped?
I doubt it, real estate values being what they are. There was probably a decent case for leaving at least a small site untouched as an historical artifact.
Of course parts of Clydebank still look like bomb sites.
That was sort-of what I was thinking of - listing a bomb site. Although there must be one or two hidden about in East London behind hoardings or other buildings?
I walked past Clydebank a few years back and, to be honest there are far worse coastal areas. The coastal route I took passed a fair few areas of newish development.
Perhaps the most depressing place was near Runcorn, on the Liverpool side of the river. Garston, I think (thought might have misremembered).
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
How old are you Dair? Those of us who lived through the 1970s will not recognise that description at all.
I'd guess that Dair is a teenager. Something has gone horribly wrong with Scottish education under the SNP regime.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
Peter Ustinov made a similar point in the 'Eighties (IIRC). He was wearing a pair of Wranglers and was followed by some Soviet youths. He was concerned that they had recognised him as a 'White Russian' but was relieved to find out that it was only his denim that excited them...!
In the early 80s I went on a study tour of the Soviet Union with the University. It would be fair to say most of the participants were committed communists who genuinely believed they had seen the future. Most had been to East Germany and were convinced that it was greatly superior to Western Germany which was inevitably going to collapse along with the rest of the west.
As someone who had seen the Berlin wall in the 1970s as well as the fences built across the beautiful Harz mountains like an ugly scar facing in the way with mines, barbed wire and armed sentries on patrol to prevent their people from leaving I thought this was completely absurd and some lively debates ensued but what it showed was that even seeing it for yourself is not enough to change opinions if your mind is closed. That is at least one of Corbyn's problems.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
It was an amazing experience. We were in Moscow, Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. We were given copy of Comrade Brezhnev's thoughts at the airport. We were spied on continuously. Despite that there was a thriving black market. Everything was incredibly clean. Moscow underground was astonishing. There were no consumer goods available except in exclusive dollar shops. Very little private transport. Special lanes for the officials to drive through. A very peculiar interest in Burns poetry. I can't think of a holiday or trip I have done in my life which left me with so many stories.
One example. Our plane was late. We arrived at our hotel very tired and hungry. The staff told us that since we had made them wait we would now have to wait. I thought it was hilarious. Some of the communists (who generally had very comfortable jobs and lives at the University) thought I was being disrespectful. Maybe they were right but customer care was completely alien to the whole country.
My parents drove across East Germany in the 70s and visited Russia before the Olympics in 1980. They came back full of tales of trading with suitcases full of Levis, biros and lipsticks. Re the Olympics - the women's teams often looked remarkably like men or covered in bruises from training very hard.
In the early 80s I went on a study tour of the Soviet Union with the University. It would be fair to say most of the participants were committed communists who genuinely believed they had seen the future. Most had been to East Germany and were convinced that it was greatly superior to Western Germany which was inevitably going to collapse along with the rest of the west.
As someone who had seen the Berlin wall in the 1970s as well as the fences built across the beautiful Harz mountains like an ugly scar facing in the way with mines, barbed wire and armed sentries on patrol to prevent their people from leaving I thought this was completely absurd and some lively debates ensued but what it showed was that even seeing it for yourself is not enough to change opinions if your mind is closed. That is at least one of Corbyn's problems.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
Pah, that's nothing. Mrs J's father drove his family from London to Tehran. In 1984, during the Iran-Iraq war.
I think the experience of living in Tehran for a short while during that period has played a large part in her becoming a staunch feminist. Although diplomatic passports seems to have made the experience more liveable for them - they offered protection from the worst of the regime's excesses.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
Peter Ustinov made a similar point in the 'Eighties (IIRC). He was wearing a pair of Wranglers and was followed by some Soviet youths. He was concerned that they had recognised him as a 'White Russian' but was relieved to find out that it was only his denim that excited them...!
Your story falls down on the concept of Ustinov wearing Wranglers. There are some things that are beyond belief.
I had an option to go to Russia in 1988 when I was 15. For various reasons I couldn't go, but wish I had. It would have been fascinating to see Moscow (or the bits they let us see) at that pivotal moment before the fall.
Peter Ustinov made a similar point in the 'Eighties (IIRC). He was wearing a pair of Wranglers and was followed by some Soviet youths. He was concerned that they had recognised him as a 'White Russian' but was relieved to find out that it was only his denim that excited them...!
Your story falls down on the concept of Ustinov wearing Wranglers. There are some things that are beyond belief.
Also Levis were far more in demand than Wranglers. I sold a pair for well over £100 at the official rate of exchange.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
IIRC that was more "slum clearance" (and silly urban motorways) than bomb damage. Still not pretty though.
See, of all places, Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads.
I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but the big beneficiaries of the German migrant crisis are - as predicted by many on here - the AfD. The latest opinion poll sees them jump from 4.0% to 5.5%, with the CDU/CSU shedding 2% to 40%.
Here's a question: when I lived in London from 1991 to 1995, there were still a few places you could, if you looked carefully, find bomb sites (from memory the Stepney / Bow areas).
Are there any areas of WWII damage left now, or have they all been redeveloped or re-redeveloped?
Russian graffiti on the inside of the Reichstag ...
It's early but .... The next Labour PM may not even be a gleam in Jeremy Corbyn's and Diane Abbott's eyes ....
Discussing Ugandan Affairs Changing Trains at Baker Street....
The things you learn on PB.com!
Change at Baker Street is quite a different euphemism than Ugandan affairs or the proposed East German motorcycle trip.
It has a very specific meaning.
Baker St is not the only stop that you can change from the Hammersmith and City line to the Bakerloo though... Paddington & Edgware Rd are on both as well
Labour's problems are exactly the same as those of social democratic parties all over Europe. The gap between the views of their traditional supporters and the metropolitan types who dominate the membership are rapidly becoming unbridgeable so that both groups cannot be satisfied at the same time.
The thing with the Labour Party is that the Metropolitan types don't actually dominate the membership, they only ever dominated the PLP.
The membership don't on the whole share the same values as traditional Labour voters outside big cities.
I'm not sure how significant the numbers of Labour supporters living outside big cities is. I suspect the divide is between London and everywhere else (accepting that the South and South East are largely Tory and we're discussing Labour voters). Is anyone aware of data re Labour voters by individual urban conurbations?
It's early but .... The next Labour PM may not even be a gleam in Jeremy Corbyn's and Diane Abbott's eyes ....
Discussing Ugandan Affairs Changing Trains at Baker Street....
The things you learn on PB.com!
Change at Baker Street is quite a different euphemism than Ugandan affairs or the proposed East German motorcycle trip.
It has a very specific meaning.
Baker St is not the only stop that you can change from the Hammersmith and City line to the Bakerloo though... Paddington & Edgware Rd are on both as well
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
How old are you Dair? Those of us who lived through the 1970s will not recognise that description at all.
Not old enough to remember the 70s very strongly but I do have recollections of filth and huge areas of Glasgow which were basically missing (and the motorway was completed by then - the vast majority was the Urban Clearances from the 60s which were not rebuilt until the mid 80s).
There was an excellent video of the Glasgow Subway in 1974 on Youtube (which seems to have been removed for copyright reasons and the Preview advertising it doesn't show the stations).
It showed people walking up to the stations, how dilapidated everything looked and how one station was basically the last bit of a building in a massive sea of wasteland where you approached the station through a taped off pathway with rubble either side.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
I'm not sure about your last sentence. What do you base it on?
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
Problem for Jeremy only having approval on the NHS line is that it won't work in 5 years... they can't run "5 years to save the NHS" when it has done fine for 10 years under tory and tory-lite control. No going back from this.
Your story falls down on the concept of Ustinov wearing Wranglers. There are some things that are beyond belief.
Th'UD: I know you are not the brightest amongst the Jockanese Troupe of Clowns so I will forgive this indescretion. I would also estimate that you are not as old as my mortal self.
Edit:
DividL joins the fray: Hence the clowns oop-north may not have seen the programme. I would guess it must of been summinck from Thames; 'Des O'Conner tonight' perhaps back-in-the-days....
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
IIRC that was more "slum clearance" (and silly urban motorways) than bomb damage. Still not pretty though.
See, of all places, Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads.
New building in East Germany (or other parts of the Eastern bloc like Riga) in the 1960's and 1970's was very similar to the New Brutalism that was popular in the UK at the time. It was just as horrible to live in as well.
But, overall, the UK was far more prosperous than East Germany in the 1970s, although official statistics indicated that East German GDP was similar.
I’m a Leftie, (and proud of it) who became an adult in the late 50’s (cue “hilarious” comments from PBtories) and I don’t recognise Dair’s 1970’s Britain either.
I think there might have been the odd un-redeveloped bomb site in East London and, IIRC, Longsight, Manchester but as someone else has said, pretty well anything in course of revelopment was the end of that round of the slum clearance programme.
I went to Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia in the mid 80;’s. The new architecture was “amazing” (aka appalling) but big blocks of flats were de rigeur in the West in the 60”s, too. As others have said, the lackj of consumer goods, except in dollar shops was very noticeable. One of our speakers on the Bulgarian trip (it was a “sort of" fraternal one) asked to be paid in sterling so he could get spares for his car from the dollar shop!
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
IIRC that was more "slum clearance" (and silly urban motorways) than bomb damage. Still not pretty though.
See, of all places, Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads.
New building in East Germany (or other parts of the Eastern bloc like Riga) in the 1960's and 1970's was very similar to the New Brutalism that was popular in the UK at the time. It was just as horrible to live in as well.
But, overall, the UK was far more prosperous than East Germany in the 1970s, although official statistics indicated that East German GDP was similar.
Less facetious answer - Liverpool, Coventry and Bristol all have bombed out churches/cathedrals in the city centres.
Which is not because they've not been bothered to be fixed but because they're now historical landmarks. The Liverpool bombed out church on a roundabout is a piece of history.
According to Mr. T's Twitter feed, the BBC edited footage of the migrants attacking Hungarian defences to remove shouts of "Allahu akbar". That's plain dodgy.
I think "dodgy" understates the BBC's action. "Manipulation to distort news to conform to its corporate view" is what it is
Life was so good in 70s East Germany that the government had to put up electric fences and razor wire, build minefields, and patrol them with armed guards to keep envious Westerners out of the GDR.
Not old enough to remember the 70s very strongly but I do have recollections of filth and huge areas of Glasgow
I am old enough to remember the 70s and it was a grim time. When I visited Glasgow I was appalled at the state of the place - it was the biggest slum I have ever seen.
I hope it has improved because I have never gone back.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
As an aside why do undemocratic toilets of countries always have democratic in their name?
I think our contribution was insignificant alongside that of the Soviets
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
Which was why we needed Maggie...
Even in 1975, the standard of living in the UK was still about 60% higher than in 1950.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
Not really.
Yelling Allahu Akhbar while throwing stones at people is not behaviour you want from potential immigrants.
The comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church and I'm sure we would all be concerned if that sort of behaviour was widespread.
Here's a question: when I lived in London from 1991 to 1995, there were still a few places you could, if you looked carefully, find bomb sites (from memory the Stepney / Bow areas).
Are there any areas of WWII damage left now, or have they all been redeveloped or re-redeveloped?
I doubt it, real estate values being what they are. There was probably a decent case for leaving at least a small site untouched as an historical artifact.
Of course parts of Clydebank still look like bomb sites.
That was sort-of what I was thinking of - listing a bomb site. Although there must be one or two hidden about in East London behind hoardings or other buildings?
I walked past Clydebank a few years back and, to be honest there are far worse coastal areas. The coastal route I took passed a fair few areas of newish development.
Perhaps the most depressing place was near Runcorn, on the Liverpool side of the river. Garston, I think (thought might have misremembered).
Many bomb sites in London became car parks; NCP started with one in Holborn. There's another example in Moxon Street, Marylebone which remained derelict until a decade or so ago.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
Nonsense. Great chunks of the GDR remained bomb sites. There were plenty in East Berlin at the time of reunification with the West.
I've not seen evidence of this but obviously it may have been suppressed. I do recall a documentary some years back that indicated that areas were just paved over (a huge part of East Berlin they couldn't decide what to do with. That in itself would look far better than the rubble strewn wastelands throughout British cities (not just from bomb sites but from urban clearances too).
It is also likely that the areas tourists were allowed to go were pretty much free from this (similar to the way they had specific shops for tourists in most of Eastern Europe).
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
Not really.
Yelling Allahu Akhbar while throwing stones at people is not behaviour you want from potential immigrants.
The comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church and I'm sure we would all be concerned if that sort of behaviour was widespread.
They could have been dead silent and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that. They could be chanting expletives or political slogans and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that.
The quote I quoted had no reference to throwing stones. That changes things more than the words do.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
Pretty obvious they were being trained as sleeper agents.
Who was allowed into the GDR at that time anyway ?
I'm pretty sure you needed a Visa to get into the GDR - except for Berlin, where as a passport holder of an occupying power you could pass between the sectors. I visited East Berlin and traveled through Hungary/Yugoslavia on the train in the late 70s - I doubt anyone who visited Britain/the GDR would want to live in the GDR! Why were people only shot for corssing from East to West, if the East was so much better?
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
Perhaps blinded by love was more likely
Love? Too busy with 'lust' more like. Urgh.
I thought I was being ironic. Neither individual could possibly love anyone but themself.
Not old enough to remember the 70s very strongly but I do have recollections of filth and huge areas of Glasgow
I am old enough to remember the 70s and it was a grim time. When I visited Glasgow I was appalled at the state of the place - it was the biggest slum I have ever seen.
I hope it has improved because I have never gone back.
It is a very pleasant place now and has been since the 1990s when most of the debris fields and wastelands started to be rebuilt.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
So was it Corbyn's romantic past with Abbott that caused him to ignore her blatant racism when appointing her to the shadow cabinet? Or was it just another issue where Corbyn has double standards depending on who is committing the sin?
What I find most surprising about all this is that they did a road trip around the GDR in the 1970s and still maintained their socialist views. You would have to be truly blinded by ideology to see the tip that the GDR was, compare it to the FRG, and conclude socialism was the better system.
You forget.
They came from Britain in the 1970s.
GDR would have been cleaner and greener without undeveloped bomb sites and buildings crumbling all around you**.
No doubt the GDR was a grim place compared to many in the world. But compared to 1970s Britain it was Utopia.
You sure? I'm pretty confident that Bomber command and 8th Air force spent a great deal of time and effort rearranging the street layouts of what became GDR.
Yes but by the 1970s the GDR had rebuilt with brand spanking new (and at the time in good order) blocks of flats. The UK was left with huge swathes of our major cities in rubble. Youtube some videos from the 70s in any British city of your choice.
Nonsense. Great chunks of the GDR remained bomb sites. There were plenty in East Berlin at the time of reunification with the West.
I've not seen evidence of this but obviously it may have been suppressed. I do recall a documentary some years back that indicated that areas were just paved over (a huge part of East Berlin they couldn't decide what to do with. That in itself would look far better than the rubble strewn wastelands throughout British cities (not just from bomb sites but from urban clearances too).
It is also likely that the areas tourists were allowed to go were pretty much free from this (similar to the way they had specific shops for tourists in most of Eastern Europe).
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
Good film .... My GDR Teeshirt ..... about the “discovery” of the GDR at www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmILB8tmm00
Both pro and con in it. (Not all that much of the former, TBF!)
GDR “might" have built decent housing, but it’s cars were crap!
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
What do you mean "now"?
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
Not really.
Yelling Allahu Akhbar while throwing stones at people is not behaviour you want from potential immigrants.
The comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church and I'm sure we would all be concerned if that sort of behaviour was widespread.
They could have been dead silent and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that. They could be chanting expletives or political slogans and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that.
The quote I quoted had no reference to throwing stones. That changes things more than the words do.
They were standing on the roof of a business (shuttered and most likely destroyed) throwing rocks at the Hungarian police and yelling Allahu Ackhbar.
Jeremy Corbyn is the wrong person at the wrong time to lead labour. The economic and personal security in this time of great danger to the Country requires an opposition leader who actively supports our defence, not someone who wants to scrap trident, leave NATO, has a history of supporting Hamas, the IRA and even Argentina. David Cameron will win hands down on keeping us safe. The migration crisis will grip Europe and the UK for years to come and David Cameron's solution will be seen as far sighted and Merkel's largely seen as incompetent and a complete disaster. This crisis will see the clamour to regain control of our borders increase with the inevitable demand to 'leave' Europe. Re the economy he is talking yesterdays arguments which labour lost in May and by the time of the next election, George Osborne will have concluded austerity and will no doubt will be promoting more social democratic policies to lock the conservatives in the centre ground.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
Although I was never a fan of IDS, I did think his exchange with a (south? east?) Glasgow voter nailed it...
Voter: Go away. We've voted Labour for generations here
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
What do you mean "now"?
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
She has considerale responsibility for the benefits culture, by closing down old, heavy, industries without doing a lot more to ensure replacement local employment. “Getting on one’s bike” a la Tebbitt isn’t always the answer, as Cameron is trying to show in the Middle Est.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
Actually moderate Muslims shout it too.
I know all Muslims use it as an expression, but I've never known moderate Muslims use it as a rallying cry during protests.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
Actually moderate Muslims shout it too.
I know all Muslims use it as an expression, but I've never known moderate Muslims use it as a rallying cry during protests.
Well that's just ignorance then. It's exactly the same as Thank God or Praise The Lord.
Just because some shout it while committing horrific crimes does not mean the phrase is by itself horrific.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
Although I was never a fan of IDS, I did think his exchange with a (south? east?) Glasgow voter nailed it...
Voter: Go away. We've voted Labour for generations here
IDS: Yes - and look at the state of the place.
But that's been the obvious political mechanism for Labour throughout their history.
Labour know that people who are wealth or at least comfortable are far less likely to vote for Labour, the best way for Labour to maintain and even grow their vote is to keep people as poor and downtrodden as possible.
And the more additional people they make poor and downtrodden the better it is for them.
On topic: A very sensible and well-argued piece by Keiran - which is why it is probably very wide of the mark.
There's an implicit assumption in Keiran's piece that there exists a group of sensible senior people at the heart of the Labour Party, who agree on what needs to be done, and who will be able to fix the result, in collaboration with sensible union leaders, in order to bring about a sensible choice of next leader.
Is there such a group? Try thinking of some names - you might think Harriet, Tom Watson, Chukka, Yvette, Andy B etc - would they all agree on who should be next leader, would they have the support of the whole PLP, and would they all put aside any personal ambitions of their own? No, I don't think so either. It's even more unlikely if they need union support, at least for as long as Len McCluskey is the key player.
But, even if such a group exists or will exist, how would they actually fix the result? It would require near-unanimity amongst the PLP, which in current circumstances looks unattainable and in any case couldn't be guaranteed in advance. It would only require one ambitious or dissident MP to get 35 nominations and the whole thing is blown open. We'd have a rerun of the full contest - what fun that would be - probably with the same selectorate. That looks a jolly high-risk strategy especially as the next GE will be looming closer.
On balance, I don't see the Michael Howard route being open to Labour this time. The civil wars are still raging.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
Not really.
Yelling Allahu Akhbar while throwing stones at people is not behaviour you want from potential immigrants.
The comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church and I'm sure we would all be concerned if that sort of behaviour was widespread.
They could have been dead silent and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that. They could be chanting expletives or political slogans and throwing stones and I wouldn't like that.
The quote I quoted had no reference to throwing stones. That changes things more than the words do.
They were standing on the roof of a business (shuttered and most likely destroyed) throwing rocks at the Hungarian police and yelling Allahu Ackhbar.
As I said it's the action not the words that are bad.
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
Actually moderate Muslims shout it too.
I know all Muslims use it as an expression, but I've never known moderate Muslims use it as a rallying cry during protests.
Well that's just ignorance then. It's exactly the same as Thank God or Praise The Lord.
Just because some shout it while committing horrific crimes does not mean the phrase is by itself horrific.
Actually as its translation is "God is Great", the better comparison would be to "Glory to God" for Christians.
It'll be interesting to see how many of his principles he'll tolerate being compromised before he has to try and force something through.
He's clearly a eurosceptic at heart, now backing the EU irrespective of negotiations. My theory is he'll target Trident, and leave NATO - trying to pass it as a policy at conference. The question then is will Maria Eagle U-turn on her previous voting record or resign and give Corbyn the impossible challenge of finding a new shadow defence secretary. (Plus other possible difficulties)
This seems like an insurmountable collision course with the PLP, but if he compromises on EU, NATO and Trident he'll look unprincipled and weak like Tsipiras.
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
What do you mean "now"?
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
She has considerale responsibility for the benefits culture, by closing down old, heavy, industries without doing a lot more to ensure replacement local employment. “Getting on one’s bike” a la Tebbitt isn’t always the answer, as Cameron is trying to show in the Middle Est.
Mr. Cole, the idea that HMG can create real, tax-generating, jobs in areas of its choice had surely been proved so false by the early 1980s. Even the Attlee government running a command economy, where it decided where factories would be built, what labour and materials would be made available, couldn't make it work (and caused significant damage to nascent industries such as aerospace in trying. Quite what you expected the government of the 1980's to do in this regard that it didn't try I am not sure.
Not old enough to remember the 70s very strongly but I do have recollections of filth and huge areas of Glasgow
I am old enough to remember the 70s and it was a grim time. When I visited Glasgow I was appalled at the state of the place - it was the biggest slum I have ever seen.
I hope it has improved because I have never gone back.
It is a very pleasant place now and has been since the 1990s when most of the debris fields and wastelands started to be rebuilt.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
@Dair@Beverley_C This website has many photos of Glasgow from the 70s.
I know this may be a bit radical - but couldn't the PLP declare a vote of No Confidence in Jezza and elect their own leader, thus short-circuiting the whole mess/forcing the issue?
Jezza'd lost the dressing room before he started. Would MPs be willing to take on the fans?
On topic: A very sensible and well-argued piece by Keiran - which is why it is probably very wide of the mark.
There's an implicit assumption in Keiran's piece that there exists a group of sensible senior people at the heart of the Labour Party, who agree on what needs to be done, and who will be able to fix the result, in collaboration with sensible union leaders, in order to bring about a sensible choice of next leader.
I expect Labour to split, or at least some senior departures to another party. I suspect that they will sit tight until the first major Corbyn "howler" to give them cover for their departure. They will still get labelled turncoats or scum because you cannot leave socialism without being pilloried by the believers, but having a whopper from Corbyn will take some of the sting out (unless they commit the ultimate heresy and cross the floor)
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
Actually moderate Muslims shout it too.
I know all Muslims use it as an expression, but I've never known moderate Muslims use it as a rallying cry during protests.
Well that's just ignorance then. It's exactly the same as Thank God or Praise The Lord.
Just because some shout it while committing horrific crimes does not mean the phrase is by itself horrific.
If you think the phrase "Allah Akhbar" has exactly the same connotations and usage as "Thank God" or "Praise the Lord" then you are the ignorant one. You also seem to be unable to follow my argument. I am not saying the phrase itself is horrific. I am saying the phrase used as a shout during protests is Islamist.
Mr. Eagles, even Miliband had large poll leads. A poll lead is, at best, a minor skirmish.
It was the Third Punic War, not Zama, that ended Carthage's position as a separate political entity. And it wasn't wiped from the face of the Earth, as it became a Roman city [and, later, the capital of the Exarchate of Carthage].
Mr. Eagles, even Miliband had large poll leads. A poll lead is, at best, a minor skirmish.
It was the Third Punic War, not Zama, that ended Carthage's position as a separate political entity. And it wasn't wiped from the face of the Earth, as it became a Roman city [and, later, the capital of the Exarchate of Carthage].
Yup Cannae was a minor skirmish.
If Hannibal hasn't lost Zama/the Second Punic War there wouldn't have been a third war.
She has considerale responsibility for the benefits culture, by closing down old, heavy, industries without doing a lot more to ensure replacement local employment. “Getting on one’s bike” a la Tebbitt isn’t always the answer, as Cameron is trying to show in the Middle Est.
Mr. Cole, the idea that HMG can create real, tax-generating, jobs in areas of its choice had surely been proved so false by the early 1980s. Even the Attlee government running a command economy, where it decided where factories would be built, what labour and materials would be made available, couldn't make it work (and caused significant damage to nascent industries such as aerospace in trying. Quite what you expected the government of the 1980's to do in this regard that it didn't try I am not sure.
Of course they can't. A governments ability to make any REAL long term difference to an economy or country is vastly overstated by most people.
However, what a government is VERY good at doing is short term fixes. Such as providing non-real, tax-consuming jobs in an area subject to economic devastation in order to avoid a culture of benefit dependancy (or in the days before benefits crime and corruption) which is much more sensible in the long term.
It is far easier to wean people from pointless jobs which involve labour for money than it is to wean them off a sense of entitlement to benefits.
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
What do you mean "now"?
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
She has considerale responsibility for the benefits culture, by closing down old, heavy, industries without doing a lot more to ensure replacement local employment. “Getting on one’s bike” a la Tebbitt isn’t always the answer, as Cameron is trying to show in the Middle Est.
Mr. Cole, the idea that HMG can create real, tax-generating, jobs in areas of its choice had surely been proved so false by the early 1980s. Even the Attlee government running a command economy, where it decided where factories would be built, what labour and materials would be made available, couldn't make it work (and caused significant damage to nascent industries such as aerospace in trying. Quite what you expected the government of the 1980's to do in this regard that it didn't try I am not sure.
IIRC there wasn’t an awful lot tried. TBF the miners in particular weren’t necessarily their own best friends, too many too often insisting on Coal or Nothing, as I recall.
I do recall having a discussion in the Glasgow are on this subject with an industrialist who employed mostly women and, if memory serves, regarded the replacement of jobs for men with jobs for women as a fair exchange, when culturally it presented a problem.
Not old enough to remember the 70s very strongly but I do have recollections of filth and huge areas of Glasgow
I am old enough to remember the 70s and it was a grim time. When I visited Glasgow I was appalled at the state of the place - it was the biggest slum I have ever seen.
I hope it has improved because I have never gone back.
It is a very pleasant place now and has been since the 1990s when most of the debris fields and wastelands started to be rebuilt.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
@Dair@Beverley_C This website has many photos of Glasgow from the 70s.
Traveling through the Berlin corridor on the military train in the mid 80's to west Berlin showed exactly what a toilet east Germany was. It had to be seen to be believed
The main point I was making was not about the GDR, it was about the UK, which was in a very sorry state in the 1970s and had failed to make the sort of progress that practically every other Western Democracy had made since WW2 (and again, I am aware the Marshall Plan made a big difference in many European countries to this).
So now you're a Thatcher fan? Her work did improve the country greatly from the 70s I agree.
What do you mean "now"?
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
She has considerale responsibility for the benefits culture, by closing down old, heavy, industries without doing a lot more to ensure replacement local employment. “Getting on one’s bike” a la Tebbitt isn’t always the answer, as Cameron is trying to show in the Middle Est.
Mr. Cole, the idea that HMG can create real, tax-generating, jobs in areas of its choice had surely been proved so false by the early 1980s. Even the Attlee government running a command economy, where it decided where factories would be built, what labour and materials would be made available, couldn't make it work (and caused significant damage to nascent industries such as aerospace in trying. Quite what you expected the government of the 1980's to do in this regard that it didn't try I am not sure.
IIRC there wasn’t an awful lot tried. TBF the miners in particular weren’t necessarily their own best friends, too many too often insisting on Coal or Nothing, as I recall.
I do recall having a discussion in the Glasgow are on this subject with an industrialist who employed mostly women and, if memory serves, regarded the replacement of jobs for men with jobs for women as a fair exchange, when culturally it presented a problem.
It can be argued they tried to do more than New Labour, although it was always going to be a very difficult task.
Examples:
*) The massively successful regeneration of Docklands, for which hundred-foot high statues of Heseltine (preferably wielding the Mace) should be erected.
*) The five garden festivals designed to regenerate specific areas.
*) The creation of new industries, including attracting Nissan, Toyota and Honda into the UK.
Traveling through the Berlin corridor on the military train in the mid 80's to west Berlin showed exactly what a toilet east Germany was. It had to be seen to be believed
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
Why are they dangerous? Allahu Akhbar from my understanding literally translated to Praise Be To God. If a Christian had walked in saying Thank God or Praise The Lord would they be dangerous?
"Allah Akhbar" shouted as a cry is well established as an Islamist slogan, from the Iranian revolutionaries to Al-Qaeda to the Islamic State. You don't get democratic Arab liberals shouting it.
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
Actually moderate Muslims shout it too.
I know all Muslims use it as an expression, but I've never known moderate Muslims use it as a rallying cry during protests.
Well that's just ignorance then. It's exactly the same as Thank God or Praise The Lord.
Just because some shout it while committing horrific crimes does not mean the phrase is by itself horrific.
Actually as its translation is "God is Great", the better comparison would be to "Glory to God" for Christians.
Which, like Allahu Ackbar, is a War Cry.
For one, I thought Allahu Akhbar was the comparative or superlative.
For two, Glory to God is from the New Testament - the Angel Chorus in the Christmas Story to be exact. There aren't many battle cries in the New Testament.
I'd be interested to hear of its (mis)use as a battle cry.
I can't comment on Allahi Akhbar in the Quran, but Mohammed was quite warlike according to some (later?) sections.
I guess hear that it is being used as a rally cry for the protestors.
Comments
Of course parts of Clydebank still look like bomb sites.
Betting PostSkybet have gone up 80/1 Harman. Must-back material if you can.
It made quite an impression on me.
Gifted, convinced communists, coming with food so as to spend the currency on consumer goods, introduced me to the term "political economy" which seems to be breeding in our system as economics with politics where the thinking used to be, and well briefed to compare the Komsomol to the Scout movement.
I walked past Clydebank a few years back and, to be honest there are far worse coastal areas. The coastal route I took passed a fair few areas of newish development.
Perhaps the most depressing place was near Runcorn, on the Liverpool side of the river. Garston, I think (thought might have misremembered).
One example. Our plane was late. We arrived at our hotel very tired and hungry. The staff told us that since we had made them wait we would now have to wait. I thought it was hilarious. Some of the communists (who generally had very comfortable jobs and lives at the University) thought I was being disrespectful. Maybe they were right but customer care was completely alien to the whole country.
I think the experience of living in Tehran for a short while during that period has played a large part in her becoming a staunch feminist. Although diplomatic passports seems to have made the experience more liveable for them - they offered protection from the worst of the regime's excesses.
Even Ed had a honeymoon not Jez.
http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/video/video-117161.html
These are dangerous young men. God knows how many Islamists Germany and Sweden have already taken in.
I've yet to be able to confirm the BBC footage with it edited out, although many people are talking about it.
There was an excellent video of the Glasgow Subway in 1974 on Youtube (which seems to have been removed for copyright reasons and the Preview advertising it doesn't show the stations).
It showed people walking up to the stations, how dilapidated everything looked and how one station was basically the last bit of a building in a massive sea of wasteland where you approached the station through a taped off pathway with rubble either side.
they can't run "5 years to save the NHS" when it has done fine for 10 years under tory and tory-lite control.
No going back from this.
Edit:
DividL joins the fray: Hence the clowns oop-north may not have seen the programme. I would guess it must of been summinck from Thames; 'Des O'Conner tonight' perhaps back-in-the-days....
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-17/ipcc-to-investigate-12-more-allegations-of-corruption-relating-to-child-sex-abuse/
But, overall, the UK was far more prosperous than East Germany in the 1970s, although official statistics indicated that East German GDP was similar.
I think there might have been the odd un-redeveloped bomb site in East London and, IIRC, Longsight, Manchester but as someone else has said, pretty well anything in course of revelopment was the end of that round of the slum clearance programme.
I went to Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia in the mid 80;’s. The new architecture was “amazing” (aka appalling) but big blocks of flats were de rigeur in the West in the 60”s, too. As others have said, the lackj of consumer goods, except in dollar shops was very noticeable. One of our speakers on the Bulgarian trip (it was a “sort of" fraternal one) asked to be paid in sterling so he could get spares for his car from the dollar shop!
I hope it has improved because I have never gone back.
Yelling Allahu Akhbar while throwing stones at people is not behaviour you want from potential immigrants.
The comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church and I'm sure we would all be concerned if that sort of behaviour was widespread.
The quote I quoted had no reference to throwing stones. That changes things more than the words do.
What the Labour Party and the Union did to Glasgow should never be forgotten, it is a cultural atrocity which does not fall short of the actions of ISIS.
Both pro and con in it. (Not all that much of the former, TBF!)
GDR “might" have built decent housing, but it’s cars were crap!
There is a reason the BBC apparently edited it out of its footage.
A ComRes phone poll is due soon too.
I've always been a Thatcher fan, at least in most respects.
Her failure to address benefits culture was a disgrace, to a greater extent she did as much as Blair to create it - Family Credit was how the Child/Working Tax Credit debacle began!
Voter: Go away. We've voted Labour for generations here
IDS: Yes - and look at the state of the place.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind and Jack Straw cleared by the standards committee
Just because some shout it while committing horrific crimes does not mean the phrase is by itself horrific.
Labour know that people who are wealth or at least comfortable are far less likely to vote for Labour, the best way for Labour to maintain and even grow their vote is to keep people as poor and downtrodden as possible.
And the more additional people they make poor and downtrodden the better it is for them.
There's an implicit assumption in Keiran's piece that there exists a group of sensible senior people at the heart of the Labour Party, who agree on what needs to be done, and who will be able to fix the result, in collaboration with sensible union leaders, in order to bring about a sensible choice of next leader.
Is there such a group? Try thinking of some names - you might think Harriet, Tom Watson, Chukka, Yvette, Andy B etc - would they all agree on who should be next leader, would they have the support of the whole PLP, and would they all put aside any personal ambitions of their own? No, I don't think so either. It's even more unlikely if they need union support, at least for as long as Len McCluskey is the key player.
But, even if such a group exists or will exist, how would they actually fix the result? It would require near-unanimity amongst the PLP, which in current circumstances looks unattainable and in any case couldn't be guaranteed in advance. It would only require one ambitious or dissident MP to get 35 nominations and the whole thing is blown open. We'd have a rerun of the full contest - what fun that would be - probably with the same selectorate. That looks a jolly high-risk strategy especially as the next GE will be looming closer.
On balance, I don't see the Michael Howard route being open to Labour this time. The civil wars are still raging.
He'll lead Labour to such a catastrophic defeat that will Ultimately wipe Labour from the face of the earth just like Zama did to Carthage.
Which, like Allahu Ackbar, is a War Cry.
He's clearly a eurosceptic at heart, now backing the EU irrespective of negotiations.
My theory is he'll target Trident, and leave NATO - trying to pass it as a policy at conference.
The question then is will Maria Eagle U-turn on her previous voting record or resign and give Corbyn the impossible challenge of finding a new shadow defence secretary. (Plus other possible difficulties)
This seems like an insurmountable collision course with the PLP, but if he compromises on EU, NATO and Trident he'll look unprincipled and weak like Tsipiras.
http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/ftopic1654-0-asc-0.php
Jezza'd lost the dressing room before he started. Would MPs be willing to take on the fans?
It was the Third Punic War, not Zama, that ended Carthage's position as a separate political entity. And it wasn't wiped from the face of the Earth, as it became a Roman city [and, later, the capital of the Exarchate of Carthage].
If Hannibal hasn't lost Zama/the Second Punic War there wouldn't have been a third war.
However, what a government is VERY good at doing is short term fixes. Such as providing non-real, tax-consuming jobs in an area subject to economic devastation in order to avoid a culture of benefit dependancy (or in the days before benefits crime and corruption) which is much more sensible in the long term.
It is far easier to wean people from pointless jobs which involve labour for money than it is to wean them off a sense of entitlement to benefits.
I do recall having a discussion in the Glasgow are on this subject with an industrialist who employed mostly women and, if memory serves, regarded the replacement of jobs for men with jobs for women as a fair exchange, when culturally it presented a problem.
You might enjoy these. I grew up there and left and I have not gone back except for the odd visit. I still do not like the place.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=1970s+belfast+photos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bagradas
Examples:
*) The massively successful regeneration of Docklands, for which hundred-foot high statues of Heseltine (preferably wielding the Mace) should be erected.
*) The five garden festivals designed to regenerate specific areas.
*) The creation of new industries, including attracting Nissan, Toyota and Honda into the UK.
For two, Glory to God is from the New Testament - the Angel Chorus in the Christmas Story to be exact. There aren't many battle cries in the New Testament.
I'd be interested to hear of its (mis)use as a battle cry.
I can't comment on Allahi Akhbar in the Quran, but Mohammed was quite warlike according to some (later?) sections.
I guess hear that it is being used as a rally cry for the protestors.
Not all are literal :-).
eg F**k the Police. F**k the Tories.