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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn: Winning the election but losing the argument?

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    That's true of every majority government regardless of voting system and is a feature of Parliamentary governments, or just governments in general. Does the Israeli government elected by pure PR care what the Joint List (and thus the Arab minority) want?

    Fair go, Mr. Thompson, I was thinking of your point that in voting for the SNP the Scots were voting for the party best able to bring home the pork to Scotland. In my view voting for the party least able to affect the deliberations of the government was actually going to do the reverse.
    Had there been the potential for a Labour majority (sweeping Scotland as normal) or Labour minority relying upon SNP support, the latter would likely bring more pork to Scotland.

    The fact Labour failed south of the border as well as north of it made the whole question moot.
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    Gordon Brown, David Miliband and Neil Kinnock all know how to win General Elections as Labour Leader, don't they?!

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Morris_Dancer, HurstLlama

    The division between "republic" and "empire" is an anachronism. The Romans considered themselves for it to be one continuous Res Publica for the entire period, during which different political institutions rose and fall. Augustus was not a monarch or emperor in the medieval sense, but the First Citizen of the Senate, invested with the authority of the state. It can even be argued that the concept of a public state separate from the Imperator (and later Basileus) lasted continuously until the fall of the Roman State in 1453.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. JEO, come on. That's political spin, divorced from the reality of the situation.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Herself is home and Himself wants his tuna. I must go. Thanks to all for the interesting conversation.
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    Comrade @Pulpstar!

    Loving the new avatar, Tovarish

    За Родину! За KopБина!
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Gordon Brown, David Miliband and Neil Kinnock all know how to win General Elections as Labour Leader, don't they?!

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    It has been quite amusing to see David Miliband giving out lectures on how to win elections. Him, the only person in the world to lose an election to Ed Miliband.
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    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It'll be interesting to see who tops the polls. Will it be New SYRIZA, Old SYRIZA, or New Democracy.

    Tsipiras remains personally popular, so I suspect he will win. But this is Greece, so who knows..
    Which party is at the Centaur of Greek politics?
    Dunno but Labour is beyond Satyr right now.

    (waits for another round of shocking Greek puns)
    I think the Greeks will have lost their marbles if they vote Syrizia back into government.
    You mean they're on the Rhodes to Nowhere?
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    Sean_F said:

    Organised Religion that can't be challenged has been a vile pox on the globe for thousands of years used to abuse, imprison and kill both believers and "heretics". Challenging dogma and fanatics absolutely serves a good purpose and is a good in itself. It absolutely serves good reason.

    I think Charlie Hebdo was offensive and bad-mannered, but people should be entitled to be offensive and bad-mannered when it comes to expressing their political and religious opinions. I'd far rather live in a society in which people can be offensive and bad-mannered about religion, or politics, than one in which the State punishes people for it. For that reason, I think the prosecution of Pastor James McConnell for broadcasting rude comments about Islam is ridiculous.
    Absolutely 100% agreed.

    I ought to be able to make any offensive or bad-mannered comments I want about Christianity, Islam, the Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Judaism or any other belief system out there like astrology. Without fear of violence or prosecution.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Anecdote alert. On buses today, I saw two gentlemen wearing hats like Mr Corbyn's. Both hats looked very new. I'd never seen a hat like that before Mr Corbyn became News. Has he set a fashion?
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Artist said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
    I'd add Energy and Climate Change to that. It's hard to push a green renewable message when your idiot leader is re-opening the coal mines.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    Artist said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
    I think Corbyn would definitely install loyalists on the Shadow Chancellor, Foreign secretary and Defence secretary positions, as he would certainly want some one who will toe his line on austerity, trident, and the EU.

    As for the other positions, he'll probably be more flexible and lenient.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It'll be interesting to see who tops the polls. Will it be New SYRIZA, Old SYRIZA, or New Democracy.

    Tsipiras remains personally popular, so I suspect he will win. But this is Greece, so who knows..
    Which party is at the Centaur of Greek politics?
    Dunno but Labour is beyond Satyr right now.

    (waits for another round of shocking Greek puns)
    I think the Greeks will have lost their marbles if they vote Syrizia back into government.
    You mean they're on the Rhodes to Nowhere?
    Is it Kos they lack con-Crete proposals for a way forward?
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    Speedy said:

    Artist said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
    I think Corbyn would definitely install loyalists on the Shadow Chancellor, Foreign secretary and Defence secretary positions, as he would certainly want some one who will toe his line on austerity, trident, and the EU.
    Careful about using the word "Loyalist" when Jezza is around :lol:
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    welshowl said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It'll be interesting to see who tops the polls. Will it be New SYRIZA, Old SYRIZA, or New Democracy.

    Tsipiras remains personally popular, so I suspect he will win. But this is Greece, so who knows..
    Which party is at the Centaur of Greek politics?
    Dunno but Labour is beyond Satyr right now.

    (waits for another round of shocking Greek puns)
    I think the Greeks will have lost their marbles if they vote Syrizia back into government.
    You mean they're on the Rhodes to Nowhere?
    Is it Kos they lack con-Crete proposals for a way forward?
    They may lose the Rat Thrace
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Artist said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
    I think Corbyn would definitely install loyalists on the Shadow Chancellor, Foreign secretary and Defence secretary positions, as he would certainly want some one who will toe his line on austerity, trident, and the EU.
    Careful about using the word "Loyalist" when Jezza is around :lol:
    Why?
    People loyal to the new leadership should be called by definition loyalists.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    Is there anyone in the Lords Corbyn can persuade into service? I know he doesn't believe in the place - but needs must...
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AnneJGP said:

    Anecdote alert. On buses today, I saw two gentlemen wearing hats like Mr Corbyn's. Both hats looked very new. I'd never seen a hat like that before Mr Corbyn became News. Has he set a fashion?

    image
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Artist said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    Positions to avoid in a Corbyn shadow cabinet:
    Shadow Chancellor
    Chief secretary to the Treasury
    Defence
    Foreign secretary
    Business secretary
    Northern Ireland
    I think Corbyn would definitely install loyalists on the Shadow Chancellor, Foreign secretary and Defence secretary positions, as he would certainly want some one who will toe his line on austerity, trident, and the EU.
    Careful about using the word "Loyalist" when Jezza is around :lol:
    Why?
    People loyal to the new leadership should be called by definition loyalists.
    Northern Ireland.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...

    Everyone will cry fraud if this continues, even Liz Kendall:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/labour-leadership-election-rejected-supporters-express-their-anger
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...

    If some #Labourpurge doubts take hold and a few have second thoughts about Jezzbollah and his 40 thieves then Shadsy's 5/2 on 40-50% first prefs look value. Alternately he has 7/4 on less than 50% on first prefs.

    With the uncertainty on polling this selectorate I think these are tempting.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited August 2015
    Mortimer said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    TOPPING said:

    The crux of the argument was and is the size of the state, not the size of the deficit. Cons should (I do) want a smaller state than the behemoth that GB had created. I agree all the credit rating stuff was fluff (for a country which issues its own currency and especially in a low inflationary environment) but sometimes the public hears what it wants to hear.

    Look, we're never going to agree about the size of the state or anything like that.

    But my fundamental problem is that the Conservatives are making an argument about the deficit rather than arguing about the size and the role of the state. If they had run and won on a mandate of smaller and decentralised government (although I'd argue that they're very inconsistent about what that actually means) then it wouldn't bother me anywhere near as much. They're saying one thing while doing something completely different.

    And, yes, the credit rating stuff was fluff. But the government pushed it hard and the press repeated it uncritically. But there were posters here, sincere posters, saying that the AAA credit rating was vitally important and the key difference between a Conservative and Labour government. The fact that people believed that nonsense shows the press isn't doing its job.
    Making an economy more efficient is the way to reduce the deficit, and then, eventually, the debt.

    Efficiency is generally increased by:

    a) cutting expenditure - i.e. austerity
    b) growing the economy - i.e. increasing employment, exports, retail sales etc
    c) increasing the tax tax - the only way to achieve this and grow the economy at the same time is to cut tax rates

    I know socialists struggle with this concept, but it has worked. Deficit down in real terms since 2010. Unnecessary welfare expenditure down in real terms. Economy grown massively. Employment up massively. Tax take up.



    You make an economy more efficient by increasing productivity (output per man hour).

    Increased productivity enables higher wages to be paid which increases tax take.

    Increased productivity means fewer government workers needed for the same amount of work done and reduces government spending.
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    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    I'm not convinced by this angst over whether the FS is/isn't relevant. It depends, as it always has done, on who the PM is, rather than who the FS is. For example, Halifax was a powerful and dominant Conservative politician in the late 1930s, Neville Chamberlain's acknowledged deputy and the man who was effectively offered first refusal of the premiership on Chamberlain's resignation in 1940 - but it was Chamberlain who dominated foreign affairs, because he became interested in them. Conversely, Sir Samuel Hoare in the early 1930s, a much less forceful figure, had a great deal more latitude over Abyssinia (which he made a mess of) because Baldwin did not have the energy to interfere. Eden, also, another huge figure, had comparatively little say over foreign policy direction in the 1950s because Churchill liked to strut the world stage - later Eden himself eclipsed Selwyn Lloyd, as Macmillan did Home.

    Going back, Lloyd George far outshone Balfour, even though Balfour was a former Prime Minister himself - but Asquith never really got to grips with foreign affairs, leaving it to Grey. Lord Salisbury was mostly, literally, his own Foreign Secretary, and cabinets met at the foreign office - as was Disraeli in his later years, but not Gladstone, who was content to leave foreign affairs largely to Rosebery. Derby appointed his own son Foreign Secretary to keep it under his control!

    Going further back, sometimes it was the other way around - Fox, Castlereagh, Canning and Palmerston were all at various times (not all times) officially Foreign Secretary but in practice running the government over the heads of feeble premiers.

    It's true that in recent years, with the growth of air travel meaning PMs can spend more time abroad without long voyages to consider, PMs can now conduct more foreign affairs on their own. But I think the weakness of the FO is due to a string of interventionist PMs, not to the weakness of the office itself. If we had a domestically focussed PM again, I think it would come back quickly.
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    RodCrosby said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Anecdote alert. On buses today, I saw two gentlemen wearing hats like Mr Corbyn's. Both hats looked very new. I'd never seen a hat like that before Mr Corbyn became News. Has he set a fashion?

    image
    За Родину! За KopБина!
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

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    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tsipras is currently speaking, he says he has his conscience clear, like he's done a crime or something and yes elections.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    Tsipras now "vote for me in order not to surrender our values, vote for me for to keep greece and our values greek".
    Elections September 20th.

    I think he may have done a tactical error in saying that "now we vote for who is going to implement the 3rd bailout". If people wanted a bailout and wanted it implemented or not they would vote for the opposition not for him.
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    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.
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    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Last??

    What about President Hollande?
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    Speedy said:

    Tsipras now "vote for me in order not to surrender our values, vote for me for to keep greece and our values greek".
    Elections September 20th.

    I think he may have done a tactical error in saying that "now we vote for who is going to implement the 3rd bailout". If people wanted a bailout and wanted it implemented or not they would vote for the opposition not for him.

    "No retreat, no surrender. That is Spartan law. And by Spartan law, we will stand and fight... and die. A new age has begun: an age of freedom! And all will know that 300 Spartans gave their last breath to defend it!"
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Last??

    What about President Hollande?
    Under what possible measure are socialists left wing?
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited August 2015
    Speedy said:

    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...
    Everyone will cry fraud if this continues, even Liz Kendall:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/labour-leadership-election-rejected-supporters-express-their-anger

    I predicted weeks ago that this could end in the courts.

    "Not a member? No problem, you can have a vote by paying £3 if you support our aims.

    Great! Here's my £3.

    Sorry, we now don't feel you deserve a vote.

    Why not?

    Can't tell you, unless you become a full member."

    A Kafka-esque farce....
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...
    Everyone will cry fraud if this continues, even Liz Kendall:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/labour-leadership-election-rejected-supporters-express-their-anger
    I predicted weeks ago that this could end in the courts.

    "Not a member? No problem, you can have a vote by paying £3 if you support our aims.

    Great! Here's my £3.

    Sorry, we now don't feel you deserve a vote.

    Why not?

    Can't tell you, unless you become a full member."

    A Kafka-esque farce....

    Labour will have to give a refund, though it's even Labour members who are excluded to vote.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    Mortimer said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    TOPPING said:

    The crux of the argument was and is the size of the state, not the size of the deficit. Cons should (I do) want a smaller state than the behemoth that GB had created. I agree all the credit rating stuff was fluff (for a country which issues its own currency and especially in a low inflationary environment) but sometimes the public hears what it wants to hear.

    Look, we're never going to agree about the size of the state or anything like that.

    But my fundamental problem is that the Conservatives are making an argument about the deficit rather than arguing about the size and the role of the state. If they had run and won on a mandate of smaller and decentralised government (although I'd argue that they're very inconsistent about what that actually means) then it wouldn't bother me anywhere near as much. They're saying one thing while doing something completely different.

    And, yes, the credit rating stuff was fluff. But the government pushed it hard and the press repeated it uncritically. But there were posters here, sincere posters, saying that the AAA credit rating was vitally important and the key difference between a Conservative and Labour government. The fact that people believed that nonsense shows the press isn't doing its job.
    Making an economy more efficient is the way to reduce the deficit, and then, eventually, the debt.

    Efficiency is generally increased by:

    a) cutting expenditure - i.e. austerity
    b) growing the economy - i.e. increasing employment, exports, retail sales etc
    c) increasing the tax tax - the only way to achieve this and grow the economy at the same time is to cut tax rates

    I know socialists struggle with this concept, but it has worked. Deficit down in real terms since 2010. Unnecessary welfare expenditure down in real terms. Economy grown massively. Employment up massively. Tax take up.



    You make an economy more efficient by increasing productivity (output per man hour).

    Increased productivity enables higher wages to be paid which increases tax take.

    Increased productivity means fewer government workers needed for the same amount of work done and reduces government spending.
    Bang on as ever David. I should have said 'political economy'!
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
    Really ?!? .... I thought you hadn't had a "bit" for ages ?!?

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    @Speedy:

    The Greek opinion polls have SYRIZA on about 40%, and ND about 22%.

    Let us assume that SYRIZA (Tsipiras), ND and SYRIZA (splinter) all end up in the low 20s.

    That means that even with the 50 seat bonus, there will probably need to be a coalition between two of those three.

    It could be quite entertaining. That being said, I suspect Tsipiras walks this, getting 30-33% for his SYRIZA, with SYRIZA (splinter) getting perhaps 10%.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    A heated debate between Labour and Militant supporters in 1982:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAJ9G4iytU
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
    James III was the old pretender

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Francis_Edward_Stuart
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    John Blackwillow ‏@blackwillow1 5m5 minutes ago
    I think the same, the #LabourPurge will simply confirm what we already know. The blairites want power, by any means
    Labour really will be in chaos if John is not alone and Corbyn loses...
    Everyone will cry fraud if this continues, even Liz Kendall:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/20/labour-leadership-election-rejected-supporters-express-their-anger
    I predicted weeks ago that this could end in the courts.

    "Not a member? No problem, you can have a vote by paying £3 if you support our aims.

    Great! Here's my £3.

    Sorry, we now don't feel you deserve a vote.

    Why not?

    Can't tell you, unless you become a full member."

    A Kafka-esque farce....

    If they're even blocking full members of fairly long standing, as in the case of that tweet above, then this really should end in the courts.

    It's about all that's needed to make this the most farcical and inept leadership election of all time. Even the Borgias weren't quite as incompetent as this.
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    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
    Really ?!? .... I thought you hadn't had a "bit" for ages ?!?

    How's Franz of Bavaria doing BTW? :lol:
  • Options
    OT.

    For the past couple of weeks, I've been lurking on this forum called tes community. Apparently it's a community of teachers.

    If it is indeed a community of teachers (and they are representative) then the UK is really screwed. I love how that when more a third fail GCSE Maths, they blame the pupils, and don't ask questions of their own teaching. If you instinctively dismiss pupils, then they aren't going to do well.

    And on Tspiras: LOL.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Last??

    What about President Hollande?
    Under what possible measure are socialists left wing?
    Marxist!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I see Salma Yakoob is on Corbyns team, though I suppose that is fine as long as she doesn"t attempt to vote for him...

    http://www.sunnation.co.uk/corbyn-aide-dubbed-77-bombings-revenge-for-iraq-war/
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Danny565 said:

    Gordon Brown, David Miliband and Neil Kinnock all know how to win General Elections as Labour Leader, don't they?!

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    It has been quite amusing to see David Miliband giving out lectures on how to win elections. Him, the only person in the world to lose an election to Ed Miliband.
    A national election, at least.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Pedantry mode , deactivate...
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
  • Options

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
    Really ?!? .... I thought you hadn't had a "bit" for ages ?!?

    How's Franz of Bavaria doing BTW? :lol:
    Like yourself .... of foreign origin, unmarried and unlikely to become King of the United Kingdom. :smile:

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Tsipras has formally resigned.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287
    edited August 2015

    OT.

    For the past couple of weeks, I've been lurking on this forum called tes community. Apparently it's a community of teachers.

    If it is indeed a community of teachers (and they are representative) then the UK is really screwed. I love how that when more a third fail GCSE Maths, they blame the pupils, and don't ask questions of their own teaching. If you instinctively dismiss pupils, then they aren't going to do well.

    And on Tspiras: LOL.

    TES stands for Times Educational Supplement, which runs the forum. So yes, it is a community of teachers.

    No, they are not representative, any more than PB posters are representative of all voting patterns. They tend to be the most vocal and aggressive, and the forum has a strong left-wing bias anyway because of its links to the newspaper.

    EDIT (further thought) - they would tend to be particularly unrepresentative of good teachers in shortage subjects, because they are the most overworked and have little time to do anything other than work - even in the holidays.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    @Speedy:

    The Greek opinion polls have SYRIZA on about 40%, and ND about 22%.

    Let us assume that SYRIZA (Tsipiras), ND and SYRIZA (splinter) all end up in the low 20s.

    That means that even with the 50 seat bonus, there will probably need to be a coalition between two of those three.

    It could be quite entertaining. That being said, I suspect Tsipiras walks this, getting 30-33% for his SYRIZA, with SYRIZA (splinter) getting perhaps 10%.

    I can tell you now, with the info from my sources (always reliable about Greece as you know by now), Tsipras was forced to go for an early election because everyday that passes he loses support, Tsipras loyalists had said that after November Syriza would lose an election.

    I think it will be a wild unpredictable ride, look out for 4 things:

    1. If ND and Syriza are close.
    2. The new left wing party.
    3. The Union of Centrists.
    4. The Nazi party.

    If Syriza gets close to ND then the smaller parties will get squeezed, if not then Syriza will lose even more support to it's left and to the Nazis, while ND will lose support to the Union. So far 1 in 5 Syriza voters from the last election are leaving it for the new left party, that's about 7%.

    In all circumstances I expect record low turnout.
    Also I expect that Tsipras will still be PM but forced into a wide pro-european coalition with another 3 parties, but not the Independent Greeks as they will be thrashed.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    The prevailing global axis of tension now runs across the Pacific not the Atlantic.

    Consequently the British Foreign Secretary is about as important or slightly less so than the German Foreign Secretary (whom most of us on this forum of politics experts probably can't name).
  • Options
    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    The Japanese really started it, in 1937, but everyone else ignores that.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Rupert Murdoch has endorsed Corbyn, saying the other candidates don't believe in anything.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287

    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    The Japanese really started it, in 1937, but everyone else ignores that.
    Or the Italians in 1935? They prepared the ground anyway.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Zapatero, Mitterrand, Brown, Felipe Gonzales, Romano Prodi, Sturgeon and virtually every Nordic Social Democrat government plus the whole of Eastern Europe until 1989?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    The Japanese really started it, in 1937, but everyone else ignores that.
    Or the Italians in 1935? They prepared the ground anyway.
    Japanese in 1931?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
  • Options

    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    The Japanese really started it, in 1937, but everyone else ignores that.
    Manchuria was occupied as early as 1931...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Zapatero, Mitterrand, Brown, Felipe Gonzales, Romano Prodi, Sturgeon and virtually every Nordic Social Democrat government plus the whole of Eastern Europe until 1989?
    Socialists are not left wing, when was the last time any socialist government did anything left wing? And I said elected governments not peoples republics.
    P.S. Gordon Brown is a lefty?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
    I expect that he will. But given his views on Russia, the middle east and on the US's role in the world, it's not easy to imagine any of the three working easily with him on foreign policy.
  • Options
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think it's mildly ironic that Jeremy Corbyn — an ardent republican — is likely to be elected leader on the 12th September which is precisely one day after the Queen celebrates overtaking Victoria as the longest-serving British monarch.

    Or .... on 23rd May 2016 when The Queen will overtake the 64 years 3 months and 16 days of James III and VIII. :smile:

    Naught but Jacobite Propaganda!!!
    I assure you the Queen acceded to the throne on 6th February 1952.

    I was referring to the "James III" bit!
    Really ?!? .... I thought you hadn't had a "bit" for ages ?!?

    How's Franz of Bavaria doing BTW? :lol:
    Like yourself .... of foreign origin, unmarried and unlikely to become King of the United Kingdom. :smile:

    Oh, yes! I'm the Great Pretender! :lol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    OT.

    For the past couple of weeks, I've been lurking on this forum called tes community. Apparently it's a community of teachers.

    If it is indeed a community of teachers (and they are representative) then the UK is really screwed. I love how that when more a third fail GCSE Maths, they blame the pupils, and don't ask questions of their own teaching. If you instinctively dismiss pupils, then they aren't going to do well.

    And on Tspiras: LOL.

    TES stands for Times Educational Supplement, which runs the forum. So yes, it is a community of teachers.

    No, they are not representative, any more than PB posters are representative of all voting patterns. They tend to be the most vocal and aggressive, and the forum has a strong left-wing bias anyway because of its links to the newspaper.

    EDIT (further thought) - they would tend to be particularly unrepresentative of good teachers in shortage subjects, because they are the most overworked and have little time to do anything other than work - even in the holidays.
    Thanks for the reply. I'm glad to hear that they aren't representative - some of them appear to be awfully narrow-minded and immature for teachers.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Rupert Murdoch has endorsed Corbyn, saying the other candidates don't believe in anything.

    Three days until the Sunil on Sunday endorses him!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
    My guess is that he won't. If Corbyn knew how to work with other peopld of different views in the party then he would have done so at somr point in the last decades.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
    I expect that he will. But given his views on Russia, the middle east and on the US's role in the world, it's not easy to imagine any of the three working easily with him on foreign policy.
    Only Burnham said that he would be willing to serve in the shadow cabinet, but I don't think it will be one of the big 3, especially the Foreign secretary one as Corbyn would like absolute control of the foreign policy message till the EU referendum.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited August 2015
    Danny565 said:

    Gordon Brown, David Miliband and Neil Kinnock all know how to win General Elections as Labour Leader, don't they?!

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    It has been quite amusing to see David Miliband giving out lectures on how to win elections. Him, the only person in the world to lose an election to Ed Miliband.
    Not the only one. The mighty Andy Burnham lost to him too.
  • Options
    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    They invaded Poland too, 16 days later...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287
    edited August 2015

    ydoethur said:

    OT.

    For the past couple of weeks, I've been lurking on this forum called tes community. Apparently it's a community of teachers.

    If it is indeed a community of teachers (and they are representative) then the UK is really screwed. I love how that when more a third fail GCSE Maths, they blame the pupils, and don't ask questions of their own teaching. If you instinctively dismiss pupils, then they aren't going to do well.

    And on Tspiras: LOL.

    TES stands for Times Educational Supplement, which runs the forum. So yes, it is a community of teachers.

    No, they are not representative, any more than PB posters are representative of all voting patterns. They tend to be the most vocal and aggressive, and the forum has a strong left-wing bias anyway because of its links to the newspaper.

    EDIT (further thought) - they would tend to be particularly unrepresentative of good teachers in shortage subjects, because they are the most overworked and have little time to do anything other than work - even in the holidays.
    Thanks for the reply. I'm glad to hear that they aren't representative - some of them appear to be awfully narrow-minded and immature for teachers.
    I am afraid that an awful lot of teachers can be very narrow-minded and immature - just as a lot of civil servants, bankers, journalists and GPs can be. It is however only fair to point out to the members of that forum that we are under formidable pressure to produce results and therefore we all tend to get a bit defensive when they don't happen.

    I would quote the words of a very wise teacher who taught in a dozen schools, over forty years, without ever moving beyond Head of Department (because he didn't want to): 'I've never yet met a teacher who wakes up on Monday mornings thinking, "What's the most damaging thing I can do to the children I'm teaching this week?"' (My mother would unfortunately be unable to say that - she was a colleague of the infamous Woodhead - but that's another story.) Unfortunately, because nobody believes us when we say that, when things go wrong we do tend to close ranks and fire out at the world - even when it's our fault.

    The siege mentality in education is much the saddest thing about it, and I strongly suspect, even ahead of the workload, the comparatively low pay and the long hours, is one reason why 40% of teachers quit the profession within five years of qualifying.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Zapatero, Mitterrand, Brown, Felipe Gonzales, Romano Prodi, Sturgeon and virtually every Nordic Social Democrat government plus the whole of Eastern Europe until 1989?
    Socialists are not left wing, when was the last time any socialist government did anything left wing? And I said elected governments not peoples republics.
    P.S. Gordon Brown is a lefty?
    Marxist splitter you!
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
    My guess is that he won't. If Corbyn knew how to work with other peopld of different views in the party then he would have done so at somr point in the last decades.
    I disagree - I expect Corbyn to run the shadow cabinet in quite a democratic manner to start with. The difficulty he will have is in accepting the need for collective responsibility.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287
    One further thought - in 2017, the maths foundation paper is effectively being abolished. The new 'foundation' tier will be the current 'intermediate' tier. That's going to have a big impact on results unless something drastic happens. It's all worth pointing out that as it is nearly impossible to get a half-decent job (and totally impossible to get a university place) without GCSE maths, it's going to have a serious knock-on effect down the line.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    My guess is that JC will make a magnanimous offer to the 3 defeated candidates first,even though they may have rejected the thought initially.Most leaders prefer to have their opponents inside the tent urinating out than outside the tent urinating in.
    My guess is that he won't. If Corbyn knew how to work with other peopld of different views in the party then he would have done so at somr point in the last decades.
    I disagree - I expect Corbyn to run the shadow cabinet in quite a democratic manner to start with. The difficulty he will have is in accepting the need for collective responsibility.
    He may set new benchmarks in collective irresponsibility as they all endorse random and possibly conflicting policies in public. Would be fun to watch, but not effective opposition.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    The Japanese really started it, in 1937, but everyone else ignores that.
    Manchuria was occupied as early as 1931...
    True, but that didn't result in an ongoing war, rather like the war in Europe began quite some time after the occupations started.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Zapatero, Mitterrand, Brown, Felipe Gonzales, Romano Prodi, Sturgeon and virtually every Nordic Social Democrat government plus the whole of Eastern Europe until 1989?
    Socialists are not left wing, when was the last time any socialist government did anything left wing? And I said elected governments not peoples republics.
    P.S. Gordon Brown is a lefty?
    Brown increased spending to almost 50% of and the top tax rate to 50% Hollande to 70%. The fact Marxism is normally unelectable does not mean there have not been centre left government. You could also ask when was the last time we had a purely capitalist government in Europe?
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited August 2015
    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    that well-known anti-semite Gerald Kaufman?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
    This is a very good example of why the Establishment (Labour Grandees, Political commentators, MSM and the Tories) need to re-think their tactics around trying to combat Corbyn. There is a risk that the relentless Establishment attacks on Corbyn result in many folks doing their own research and taking a very hard look at the UK's role in the world.

    Once folks start looking into events such as - King David Hotel bombing, the actions of a number of our Middle Eastern allies, who funds ISIS, the likely findings of the Chilcot review, UK's involvement in illegal renditions, Northern Ireland, Miners strike etc etc - they may not like what they find.

    The Establishment's best approach would be to let Corbyn play out without looking like their in a state of panic, as this just seems to be driving forward the Corbyn surge.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287
    HYUFD said:

    You could also ask when was the last time we had a purely capitalist government in Europe?

    That's easy. Never. Nobody has ever tried capitalism in its pure form for a very good reason - the potential social costs are far too high and the risk of revolution would therefore be too great.

    Also, of course, in theory at least pure capitalism requires that nobody ever raise taxes - therefore a capitalist government is technically as much of an oxymoron as a communist one.

    You always end up therefore with a hybrid economy of some sort in a sane system (War Communism in Russia, complete with the famous moneyless budget, being disqualified for not being sane) - it's just a question of where you put the emphasis on the different parts.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Dear oh dear. Channel 4 News running an article with Jezza equivocating the brutality of ISISS to the Yanks action in Fallujah.

    Corbers really doesn't like the Yanks one jot.

    The good news for those who love Jezza is that these comments are well in the past, and can be put down to the foolishness of youth. Jez made the remarks on Russian TV a year ago when he was 65.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2015
    calum said:

    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    If Jeremy Corbyn wins, who might serve as shadow Foreign Secretary? Given his views, this looks like the most challenging post to fill.

    that well-known anti-semite Gerald Kaufman?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
    This is a very good example of why the Establishment (Labour Grandees, Political commentators, MSM and the Tories) need to re-think their tactics around trying to combat Corbyn. There is a risk that the relentless Establishment attacks on Corbyn result in many folks doing their own research and taking a very hard look at the UK's role in the world.

    Once folks start looking into events such as - King David Hotel bombing, the actions of a number of our Middle Eastern allies, who funds ISIS, the likely findings of the Chilcot review, UK's involvement in illegal renditions, Northern Ireland, Miners strike etc etc - they may not like what they find.

    The Establishment's best approach would be to let Corbyn play out without looking like their in a state of panic, as this just seems to be driving forward the Corbyn surge.
    The King David Hotel bombing was in 1946 nearly 70 years ago for heaven's sake.

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    ydoethur said:

    One further thought - in 2017, the maths foundation paper is effectively being abolished. The new 'foundation' tier will be the current 'intermediate' tier. That's going to have a big impact on results unless something drastic happens. It's all worth pointing out that as it is nearly impossible to get a half-decent job (and totally impossible to get a university place) without GCSE maths, it's going to have a serious knock-on effect down the line.

    BIB: That's quite worrying. Although I have known people getting into uni without maths, believe or not!
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    Jeremy Corbyn at Nottingham rally.

    Introductions taking place now and being broadcast on

    http://www.ng-digital.co.uk/
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Well that didn't take long, the first and probably last elected left wing government in Europe since 1979 lasted 7 months in total and was a total failure.

    Zapatero, Mitterrand, Brown, Felipe Gonzales, Romano Prodi, Sturgeon and virtually every Nordic Social Democrat government plus the whole of Eastern Europe until 1989?
    Socialists are not left wing, when was the last time any socialist government did anything left wing? And I said elected governments not peoples republics.
    P.S. Gordon Brown is a lefty?
    Brown increased spending to almost 50% of and the top tax rate to 50% Hollande to 70%. The fact Marxism is normally unelectable does not mean there have not been centre left government. You could also ask when was the last time we had a purely capitalist government in Europe?
    Center-left is not left.
    A purely capitalist government in europe, hmm lets see where should I begin, right now in Europe there are 7: Germany, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Bulgaria, Romania, Ireland, Switzerland.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited August 2015
    ydoethur said:

    One further thought - in 2017, the maths foundation paper is effectively being abolished. The new 'foundation' tier will be the current 'intermediate' tier. That's going to have a big impact on results unless something drastic happens. It's all worth pointing out that as it is nearly impossible to get a half-decent job (and totally impossible to get a university place) without GCSE maths, it's going to have a serious knock-on effect down the line.

    Flip side to this: the Intermediate Tier was a good choice of paper for students trying to get a C but who had some chance of getting a B. Ideal for a lot of adult education students for instance (as an adult ed lecturer I was gutted when they scrapped it.)

    Also, the half-decent jobs tend to require not just a basic pass (like a D or E) but a C or a B. In fact there seems almost no demand from employers for grades D-G, even though they exist, and even though they are useful at showing the range in skills. (Not that the letter grades will exist for much longer of course!)

    Forcing people to take an intermediate-equivalent paper in order to get a C-equivalent isn't going to have much knock-on effect, since those who were going to get a C-equivalent on a foundation-equivalent paper would likely get one on an intermediate-equivalent paper anyway. In fact for a lot of students, it was easier on intermediate, because there are many students who are able to do things like basic algebra but had gaps in fundamental areas, particularly laying out arithmetic neatly and knowing their times table. The intermediate got straight on to their preferred level of difficulty whereas the foundation required them to score very highly on the "basic" questions that in theory they should have romped through, but in practice often caught them out.

    Note also that there are going to be more people retaking GCSE during sixth form or (more likely) FE college, now that education/training is compulsory to 18 and that ongoing maths is going to be required. That gives people two more years to drag themselves up to C standard.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Jeremy Corbyn at Nottingham rally.

    Introductions taking place now and being broadcast on

    http://www.ng-digital.co.uk/

    Everyone left behind under Blair, Brown and now Cameron !
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @tyson - 'Jez made the remarks on Russian TV a year ago when he was 65.'


    Strikes me as a bit odd that the Labour leadership should allow back-bench MPs to wander off the reservation to speak to the Russian press. – What else has Corbyn been up to?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Really getting stuck into New Labour here.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    OMG- Donald Trump on C4. He is a complete loon. He's as mad as box of frogs. He makes old boy Jezza seem like a sane moderate in comparison.

    Someone needs to be making contingency plans for a military junta to have a coup if that crazy, crazy man comes anywhere close to winning.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited August 2015
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    You could also ask when was the last time we had a purely capitalist government in Europe?

    That's easy. Never. Nobody has ever tried capitalism in its pure form for a very good reason - the potential social costs are far too high and the risk of revolution would therefore be too great.

    Also, of course, in theory at least pure capitalism requires that nobody ever raise taxes - therefore a capitalist government is technically as much of an oxymoron as a communist one.

    You always end up therefore with a hybrid economy of some sort in a sane system (War Communism in Russia, complete with the famous moneyless budget, being disqualified for not being sane) - it's just a question of where you put the emphasis on the different parts.
    I think you need to be careful in defining your terms with "pure capitalism", there. Perhaps "pure free market" is better, since the concept exists and there are at least folk who advocate for it. (That's addressed to HYUFD really!)
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    RodCrosby said:

    watford30 said:

    Really now the idea that the Foreign Sec is one of the big four jobs of government is a nonsense. Its more a placement for senior people who, cannot for party purposes, be dumped to see out their time comfortably with lots of first class travel.

    I think it would revert to being a big job the moment someone with stature was appointed. Going back over the previous Foreign Secretaries - Hammond, Hague, Miliband, Beckett, Straw, Cook, Rifkind - you have to get all the way to Hurd before encountering anyone who looked like a statesman.
    Quite right about Douglas Hurd. They don't make them like that anymore.
    "Douglas, Douglas, you would make Neville Chamberlain look like a warmonger."

    - M H Thatcher, On Douglas Hurd, as quoted in "Atticus", The Sunday Times (2 May, 1993)
    Neville Chamberlain did start WWII (sort of).
    No, the Germans started it! They invaded Poland!
    The Russians started it, actually, by conning Hitler into invading Poland...
    I think your argument is Fawlty.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @MikeSmithson

    Speculation is rife in political circles that our dear leader OGH as an old Liberal with follicular issues is now posting as "Old Whig".

    I think PB should be told ....
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    ydoethur said:

    One further thought - in 2017, the maths foundation paper is effectively being abolished. The new 'foundation' tier will be the current 'intermediate' tier. That's going to have a big impact on results unless something drastic happens. It's all worth pointing out that as it is nearly impossible to get a half-decent job (and totally impossible to get a university place) without GCSE maths, it's going to have a serious knock-on effect down the line.

    Flip side to this: the Intermediate Tier was a good choice of paper for students trying to get a C but who had some chance of getting a B. Ideal for a lot of adult education students for instance (as an adult ed lecturer I was gutted when they scrapped it.)

    Also, the half-decent jobs tend to require not just a basic pass (like a D or E) but a C or a B. In fact there seems almost no demand from employers for grades D-G, even though they exist, and even though they are useful at showing the range in skills. (Not that the letter grades will exist for much longer of course!)

    Forcing people to take an intermediate-equivalent paper in order to get a C-equivalent isn't going to have much knock-on effect, since those who were going to get a C-equivalent on a foundation-equivalent paper would likely get one on an intermediate-equivalent paper anyway. In fact for a lot of students, it was easier on intermediate, because there are many students who are able to do things like basic algebra but had gaps in fundamental areas, particularly laying out arithmetic neatly and knowing their times table. The intermediate got straight on to their preferred level of difficulty whereas the foundation required them to score very highly on the "basic" questions that in theory they should have romped through, but in practice often caught them out.

    Note also that there are going to be more people retaking GCSE during sixth form or (more likely) FE college, now that education/training is compulsory to 18 and that ongoing maths is going to be required. That gives people two more years to drag themselves up to C standard.
    I've found that it's not basic stuff that is the issue e.g. times table, but the more advanced stuff such as Quadratics, or Surds that messes quite a few people up.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited August 2015


    They invaded Poland too, 16 days later...

    "Outwardly everything seemed equitable, a part of Poland for Hitler and a part for Stalin. However, just one week after the signing of the Pact, Stalin played his first dirty trick. Hitler began the war against Poland, while Stalin stated that his troops were not yet ready. He could have told Ribbentrop that before the Pact was signed, but he did not do so. Hitler began the war and found himself on his own. The result? He, and he alone, was branded the perpetrator of the Second World War.

    Once he had begun the war against Poland, Hitler immediately found himself at war with France, that is, at war on two fronts. Every German schoolboy knew how a war on two fronts would turn out in the end for Germany.

    As far as Stalin was concerned, Poland had been partitioned, not in the Chancellery in Berlin, but in the Kremlin in Moscow. In effect, Stalin got the war he wanted, with a western nation destroying others around it, while Stalin remained neutral, biding his time. When, later, he got into serious difficulties, Stalin at once received help from the West.

    In the end, however, Poland, for whose liberty the West had gone to war, ended up with none at all. On the contrary, she was handed over to Stalin, along with the whole of Eastern Europe, including a part of Germany. Even so, there are some people in the West who continue to believe that the West won the Second World War.

    Hitler committed suicide; Stalin became the absolute ruler of a vast empire hostile to the West, which had been created with the help of the West. For all that, Stalin was able to preserve his reputation as naive and trusting, while Hitler went down in history as the ultimate aggressor. A multitude of books have been published in the West based on the idea that Stalin was not ready for war while Hitler was. In my view, the man who is ready for war is not the one who loudly proclaims himself prepared for it, but the man who wins it — by dividing his enemies and knocking their heads together."
    Icebreaker, by Viktor Suvorov, 1990
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