equally, the multiplier effect is never going to be greater than 1 so the Corbynistas are equally wrong if that is the point they are making.
Actually the multiplier effect can be greater than 1 in some circumstances, particularly when the economy is just going into recession. But only if the the overall deficit and debt levels aren't too high in the first place.
Mr. L, harsh criticism, given that there's not exactly a shining beacon of hope amongst them (some of us have been calling Burnham a lightweight for years).
Agreed. That is my other point -- five years of saying nothing means there are no good candidates.
Following the Dan Hodges endorsement Cooper is now clearly doomed.
Not happy with the pb attacks on her because she happens to talk about things more associated with women than men. Haven't men had enough opportunities to make messes of things? At least she is trying, unlike Burnham.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
You're not a PB Tory, just a PBer who happens to support the Conservatives (for some unknown reason as you actually seem like a reasonable and sane-ish human). There is a big difference.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
Just wondered.
Looks as if the period when Britain was the sick man of Europe, of three day weeks, bodies not being buried, electricity rationing etc were also a time of fantastic leadership across all parties!
MrsB, it's not that she's talking about things associated with women, it's that she's playing the gender card. It was similar to the way she stressed how she had kids (and Kendall didn't), which gave her special magic insight into why the taxpayer should subsidise children and ending child benefit after the first two kids was evil.
A leader should be chosen on merit, not to tick off a quota box. [As it happens, I said pre-contest, I'd probably vote for Cooper if I wanted Labour to do well. Her 'gosh, I'm a woman' approach is not appealing. I'd probably now go Kendall, Cooper, if I were voting and wanted Labour to do well].
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
Just wondered.
Looks as if the period when Britain was the sick man of Europe, of three day weeks, bodies not being buried, electricity rationing etc were also a time of fantastic leadership across all parties!
Also happened to be the time of the biggest rise in living standards in British history.
I think Shadsy's 6/4 on the top two being Cooper & Corbyn is good value (assuming you can find it on their website - the new improved version is even more incomprehensible than the last one).
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
You're not a PB Tory, just a PBer who happens to support the Conservatives (for some unknown reason as you actually seem like a reasonable and sane-ish human). There is a big difference.
It sounds like "PB Tory" is a grouping that expands and shrinks as necessary to fit arguments.
Following the Dan Hodges endorsement Cooper is now clearly doomed.
Not happy with the pb attacks on her because she happens to talk about things more associated with women than men. Haven't men had enough opportunities to make messes of things? At least she is trying, unlike Burnham.
I can't recall a single attack on her because she talked about something that matters more to women than men. Would you be able to provide an example?
I don't believe anyone should be applauded or discredited based on sharing a gender with other people.
I raised this in response to Nick's comment the other day. Despite the fact he responded to comments immediately before and after, he clearly avoided mine. He is deliberately not hearing the argument being made, because he doesn't have a response to it. It's a very politician-like thing to do.
No, sorry - what I do with PB is glance in from time to time, pick up comments that catch my eye and respond if I think I've anything useful to say. I genuinely didn't see your post, and if you want to be sure I see something it's best to email me (nickmp1 at aol dot com).
Cyclefree's criticism that I was replying to wasn't about thinking that Iran is an "enemy", it was arguing that appearing on Press TV at all showed sympathy for Iran's views. I disagree with that. If Corbyn has said he supports Iran's policies that's a different matter, but I've not seen any such quote.
Ok - let's take the "engagement vs boycott" argument one stage further. There have been pro-JC posters on this site who have expressed a wish to have a boycott of Israel. Why doesn't the "let's engage with our enemies" argument apply to Israel (assuming for the purpose of this argument that Israel is our enemy's)?
What you choose to ignore is that as an MP your association with causes and groups will give them some credit, some of your credit as an MP. MPs should use that credit wisely. JC is not arguing with Hamas: he's not saying that violence is wrong or trying to persuade them to adopt democracy or to stop threatening to kill every Jew in the world Nor was he trying to persuade the IRA to stop blowing up children. [snip for length]
JC has indeed argued that using bombs instead of arguments is wrong (though he also argues that the West's own actions - waterboarding etc. - are not defensible). I think you're basing your impression on sources hostile to JC who selectively quote him. He is undoubtedly sympathetic to Palestinians, in a less nuanced way than I am, but he's not anti-semitic (as the Harry's Place quote that you cited a while back concedes), nor does he see Israel as an enemy.
On boycotts, JC obviously isn't responsible for the views of everyone who supports him, so I'll just reply for myself. I'm opposed to a boycott of Israel, support its right to exist and defend itself by proportionate means (we can obviously debate what those are) and favour a dialogue with Israelis of all persuasions. I do see a case for boycotting products that are clearly from the occupied territories as a reflection of our disagreement (HMG policy, rather than some leftie idea) of the settlement of the West Bank preempting any agreement. Incidentally, I supported the boycott of Iran (on Press TV and elsewhere) as a non-violent way of getting them to reconsider their position.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
You're not a PB Tory, just a PBer who happens to support the Conservatives (for some unknown reason as you actually seem like a reasonable and sane-ish human). There is a big difference.
It sounds like "PB Tory" is a grouping that expands and shrinks as necessary to fit arguments.
I was under the impression that TSE was an activist, so a little more than "happening to support" ?
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
Looks like Dan Hodges is backing/has become a fan of Yvette Cooper
Wasn't he going to vote for Jezza ?
Or was that some sort of weird, special political blairite suicide 'cry for help' ?!
I think he was thinking when Corbyn experiences a humiliating defeat in 2020, Labour will return to sanity.
Yes, he was backing JC. The logic was that only by allowing the hard left to enjoy a complete rout at the 2020 GE would sanity then be allowed to return. He sort of undid this argument though by then saying that the hard left would probably come back and say that the manifesto wasn't left enough and so it goes on.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
If Corbyn wins he will have to be given a chance. The idea that an immediate coup could displace him is nonsense and it would surely lead to civil war. Those who are voting for Corbyn need to be able to see clearly what the consequences have been. This will start with Corbyn's inability to form a shadow administration worth the name. Some of his past associations could raise security questions too. Only then would an attempt to depose him be realistic - that could take a couple of years.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
Just wondered.
Looks as if the period when Britain was the sick man of Europe, of three day weeks, bodies not being buried, electricity rationing etc were also a time of fantastic leadership across all parties!
Also happened to be the time of the biggest rise in living standards in British history.
If Corbyn wins he will have to be given a chance. The idea that an immediate coup could displace him is nonsense and it would surely lead to civil war. Those who are voting for Corbyn need to be able to see clearly what the consequences have been. This will start with Corbyn's inability to form a shadow administration worth the name. Some of his past associations could raise security questions too. Only then would an attempt to depose him be realistic - that could take a couple of years.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
There's different criteria to judge on being good leaders, here's why I consider these Labour leaders good, in no particular order
1) Keir Hardie - Helped set up/establish the Labour party
2) Ramsay MacDonald - Showed briefly Labour could be a government
3) Arthur Henderson - Was given the shittiest hand that any Labour leader has ever received and did well, relatively speaking
4) Clement Attlee - Excellent Deputy PM who ran domestic affairs during WW2 and when he became PM set up the welfare state (which is some achievement, whether or not you agree with it)
5) Wilson - Helped bring in quite a lot of liberalism
6) Callaghan - Living Standards improved by 8% - Had he called an election in late 78, he would have won a majority, that's how well he was doing, so we'd have no Thatcherism, just think about that
7) I didn't include Kinnock, but for all his flaws, he did take on militant, and that deserves praise
8) Blair - His majorities showed he was a great politician.
@GuidoFawkes: Cooper: "We need a more feminist approach to the economy" Like Margaret Thatcher's approach?
As opposed to her husband's male approach.
It's hard to blame Cooper for her low opinion of middle aged white males when you consider that she's married to Ed Balls. That predicament would colour anyone's thinking.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
If Corbyn wins he will have to be given a chance. The idea that an immediate coup could displace him is nonsense and it would surely lead to civil war. Those who are voting for Corbyn need to be able to see clearly what the consequences have been. This will start with Corbyn's inability to form a shadow administration worth the name. Some of his past associations could raise security questions too. Only then would an attempt to depose him be realistic - that could take a couple of years.
It's funny how the number of nominations needed from MPs is about the number you'd need to form a decent shadow cabinet, plus assorted other senior roles. Corbyn couldn't raise this number.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
A liberal ideology would focus on equal rights and treatment for all, rather than concentrating on just one gender.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
Good point. I guess that nobody could argue that Blair wasn't good a politics, having won three elections, two of them landslides. What I was trying to tease out was whether any PB Tories would ever give a new Labour leader the benefit of the doubt, or whether a Labour leader was by definition 'crap'. BTW, I'm sure it works both ways too.
If Corbyn wins he will have to be given a chance. The idea that an immediate coup could displace him is nonsense and it would surely lead to civil war. Those who are voting for Corbyn need to be able to see clearly what the consequences have been. This will start with Corbyn's inability to form a shadow administration worth the name. Some of his past associations could raise security questions too. Only then would an attempt to depose him be realistic - that could take a couple of years.
Depends - if he can't get a shad cabinet together and the donations dry up the pressure will come soon.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
Good point. I guess that nobody could argue that Blair wasn't good a politics, having won three elections, two of them landslides. What I was trying to tease out was whether any PB Tories would ever give a new Labour leader the benefit of the doubt, or whether a Labour leader was by definition 'crap'. BTW, I'm sure it works both ways too.
Out of the four candidates, I reckon Kendall and Corbyn wouldn't be crap for differing reasons.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
Good point. I guess that nobody could argue that Blair wasn't good a politics, having won three elections, two of them landslides. What I was trying to tease out was whether any PB Tories would ever give a new Labour leader the benefit of the doubt, or whether a Labour leader was by definition 'crap'. BTW, I'm sure it works both ways too.
Jon Cruddas would have been pretty good, I reckon. Alistair Darling, Kate Hoey too.
Mr. Song, worth considering the opponents as well as the triumphs.
A dead cat could've won in 1997. Hague's a sound chap but the Conservatives, from fuzzy memory, were trying to eat their own head in 2001. Howard was sensible but only had a couple of years (could well be argued Blair's 2005 win was the most impressive, coming shortly after Iraq, against a competent Conservative leader).
Mr. JEO, it's a mildly hilarious irony that a movement supposedly about gender equality is named after one gender. It's like forming a racial equality movement and calling it whiteism.
Mr. Barber, hmm. Well, I believe in equality for the genders, but I'd never describe myself as a feminist, and the enormo-haddock feel much the same way.
I wonder how many people are going to be making multiple votes under assumed names.
The names are being checked against the electoral register, which is an easy check to make, so TBH I don't think that is a problem.
The wishy-washy criterion about 'supporting the Labour Party' is a different matter. It is random in its effect (how do they know?), and intellectually nonsensical, as various examples of would-be Labour supporters put off by the recent state of the party have shown. It will provide endless scope for bitterness and recriminations.
Mr. Barber, hmm. Well, I believe in equality for the genders, but I'd never describe myself as a feminist, and the enormo-haddock feel much the same way.
One should be careful how one defines equality as well, I am still waiting for the mixed sex soccer team, shooting team, or for that matter gymnastics team.
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
I am a feminist...
I agree on some of that, but the line: "Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life." is patently wrong if it is meant to portray the views of some / many feminists.
For instance, many feminists believe in positive discrimination, and that is actually the opposite of equality.
Feminism is as broad a church as any 'ism', for instance fascism, socialism, conservatism. You cannot simply portray it without stepping into a minefield.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
It depends how the Tories react. If they move right, just because they can in the absence opposition, they will create a dangerous vacuum in the centre which could be filled with an external competing group (LibDems, moderate Labour). The correct Tory response to Corbyn will be to hug the centre ground ever more tightly. For this reason Osborne worries me ever so slightly.
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
One criterion for being a Labour supporter must include campaigning on the doorstep alongside a Labour candidate in GE2015 with a red rosette or sticker on the panel.Mark Steel did just that in Brighton and yet has been turned down for a vote.I wonder if Lord Oakeshott,who did the same and donated to the Labour party, would have the same problem.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
A liberal ideology would focus on equal rights and treatment for all, rather than concentrating on just one gender.
I quite agree, and most feminists would too. Feminism by advocating equality rather does imply that the other sex be equal too...
Mr. Barber, hmm. Well, I believe in equality for the genders, but I'd never describe myself as a feminist, and the enormo-haddock feel much the same way.
You may not describe yourself thus, but you are...
Mr. Barber, hmm. Well, I believe in equality for the genders, but I'd never describe myself as a feminist, and the enormo-haddock feel much the same way.
One should be careful how one defines equality as well, I am still waiting for the mixed sex soccer team, shooting team, or for that matter gymnastics team.
The American Football team I played on at Uni had a female Center, no separate facilities or treatment.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
A liberal ideology would focus on equal rights and treatment for all, rather than concentrating on just one gender.
I quite agree, and most feminists would too. Feminism by advocating equality rather does imply that the other sex be equal too...
But feminism only concentrates on places where women are less equal, and is completely indifferent to where men are. I have not seen many feminists show concern about males doing worse at secondary education, being the main victims of war, being biased against in family courts, having worse health and shorter lives, receiving longer prison sentences for the same crime. In fact, on the last issue, I have heard feminists argue that we should concentrate on giving women even fewer prison sentences.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
It depends how the Tories react. If they move right, just because they can in the absence opposition, they will create a dangerous vacuum in the centre which could be filled with an external competing group (LibDems, moderate Labour). The correct Tory response to Corbyn will be to hug the centre ground ever more tightly. For this reason Osborne worries me ever so slightly.
The 'Centre' is a moving target though isn't it? I think what Ozzy will do is move the centre to the right a bit. That's what lefties really fear. The current centre is ground they struggle to move to. The future centre may be invisible from the hills of lefty purity. The Tories will seek to nudge the electorate further away from ever being able to stomach Labour again.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
There's different criteria to judge on being good leaders, here's why I consider these Labour leaders good, in no particular order
2) Ramsay MacDonald - Showed briefly Labour could be a government 4) Clement Attlee - Excellent Deputy PM who ran domestic affairs during WW2 and when he became PM set up the welfare state (which is some achievement, whether or not you agree with it)
5) Wilson - Helped bring in quite a lot of liberalism
6) Callaghan - Living Standards improved by 8% - Had he called an election in late 78, he would have won a majority, that's how well he was doing, so we'd have no Thatcherism, just think about that
8) Blair - His majorities showed he was a great politician.
So every single Labour PM up to 2007 was 'good'. Blimey, welcome to the fold - it sounds like your £3 would have been most acceptable had you chosen to spend it!
Out of interest what proportion of Conservative post-war leaders would you have counted as 'good'.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
It depends how the Tories react. If they move right, just because they can in the absence opposition, they will create a dangerous vacuum in the centre which could be filled with an external competing group (LibDems, moderate Labour). The correct Tory response to Corbyn will be to hug the centre ground ever more tightly. For this reason Osborne worries me ever so slightly.
Really? I'm sure the tories will remain centrists. Osborne is busy promoting city-state devolution. Hardly screaming right wing. He has just put up the minimum wage.
*slaps Mr. Barber across the face with a large haddock*
I'll describe and define myself, if that's all the same to you. I am not a feminist. I agree with many feminists on most things. Some are foam-flecked man-hating lunatics.
It's ridiculous to use a term based on one gender for a group allegedly about gender equality.
I don't need a label. I don't want a label. This reminds me of when an idiot at school tried to claim I was an Anglican, after I told him I was an atheist.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
Yup. Blair, Callaghan, Wilson, Attlee, Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson, Keir Hardie were very good
Just wondered.
Looks as if the period when Britain was the sick man of Europe, of three day weeks, bodies not being buried, electricity rationing etc were also a time of fantastic leadership across all parties!
Also happened to be the time of the biggest rise in living standards in British history.
Honest question: Can you remember the 70's?
I recall palpable sense we were going down the pan at an ever increasing rate, falling ever further behind other W European countries. The Sick Man of Europe, the three day week, sitting in candlelight as the power was off, the farce that was B Leyland and the crap cars they made, the strikes, the IMF telling the elected Govt what to do (we beat Greece to it, if in microcosm, by nearly 40 years), inflation at 27% at its peak and pretty sustained double figures for long periods of time - try meaningfully building up cushion faced with that. And yes, the IRA. Heard bombs go off? Well Mr Corbyn of Islington seems to have taken a somewhat different view to many of us as to the causes and solutions. I will not forget that.
It was not all Callaghan et al of course (he personally I'm sure had the nation's interests at heart), and many of the causes far predated the 70's and both the Tory and Labour Govts of the time struggled.
I was there. It was crap. I don't want to go back.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
It depends how the Tories react. If they move right, just because they can in the absence opposition, they will create a dangerous vacuum in the centre which could be filled with an external competing group (LibDems, moderate Labour). The correct Tory response to Corbyn will be to hug the centre ground ever more tightly. For this reason Osborne worries me ever so slightly.
The 'Centre' is a moving target though isn't it? I think what Ozzy will do is move the centre to the right a bit. That's what lefties really fear. The current centre is ground they struggle to move to. The future centre may be invisible from the hills of lefty purity. The Tories will seek to nudge the electorate further away from ever being able to stomach Labour again.
I agree, Patrick. But it's a tricky act to pull off in practice, and if Osborne is seen to be going too far too fast it could just backfire.
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
That's just about the only positive that can come out of this clusterf*ck.
Dan Jarvis really would be a formidable leader and 2018 would be good timing.
In order for this to work Labour has to get hammered in Local, Scottish and Welsh elections. I'm reminded of how PB Tory's used to cheer any Labour result that was poor but not disastrous like the Heywood and Middleton by-election as it meant Miliband would hang on.
To me a Feminist is a person who believes in female superiority - a bit of an Amazon really who does not sport a Brazilian.
A feminist is somebody who believes in feminism. Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life. To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
I am a feminist...
I agree on some of that, but the line: "Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life." is patently wrong if it is meant to portray the views of some / many feminists.
For instance, many feminists believe in positive discrimination, and that is actually the opposite of equality.
Feminism is as broad a church as any 'ism', for instance fascism, socialism, conservatism. You cannot simply portray it without stepping into a minefield.
Positive discrimination, in whatever endeavour is wrong headed.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
A liberal ideology would focus on equal rights and treatment for all, rather than concentrating on just one gender.
I quite agree, and most feminists would too. Feminism by advocating equality rather does imply that the other sex be equal too...
But feminism only concentrates on places where women are less equal, and is completely indifferent to where men are. I have not seen many feminists show concern about males doing worse at secondary education, being the main victims of war, being biased against in family courts, having worse health and shorter lives, receiving longer prison sentences for the same crime. In fact, on the last issue, I have heard feminists argue that we should concentrate on giving women even fewer prison sentences.
I was there. It was crap. I don't want to go back.
You didn't mention Labour (Healey) austerity. He cut more in one year than Osborne cut in the whole of the last parliament. I suppose some will feel that was perfectly fine because it was cuddly Labour austerity not nasty Tory austerity
JC winning the leadership election will be very bad news for the Tories. He won't be allowed to fight the next GE. The BBC would effectively prevent it from happening, if the labour party were too disorganised to do it themselves.
The BBC will have less influence in 2020 than now. Audience switching will see to that.
Faced with a choice of poor quality shows and 2nd rate sports, or whatever programming the new kids on the block with massive budgets such as Google and Amazon will be dishing up, it's obvious where viewers will be heading.
The same ones will also be ever more vocal in their questioning of why they still have to buy a licence for a service they never use, and refusing to pay for it.
On the night of August 11, after YouGov confirmed that Jeremy Corbyn had a lead which would win him the Labour leadership outright, a meeting occured at a private club in Shoreditch. Over pizza, two young staffers from the Burnham and Cooper campaigns confirmed what their own numbers showed. Yvette Cooper absolutely could not beat Jeremy Corbyn, and Andy Burnham probably couldn’t either.
Together they formed the outlines of a desperate last-minute strategy. Cooper would come out to attack Corbyn while Burnham would remain above the fray (she who wields the sword cannot wear the crown). Meanwhile, Lord Mandleson and Alastair Campbell continued to plot the disastrous Blairite strategy of lining up columns from Tony Blair and interventions from wealthy Labour donors, corralling the Right of the party into precisely the sneering, dismissive and angry response that cemented Corbyn’s victory. Only one man saw opportunity in this disaster: Tony Blair’s political assassin, Tom Watson.
Yvette Cooper trying to make a pitch for being a radical candidate. Wrong approach. She's never going to out-radical Jeremy Corbyn or even Andy Burnham. Even if Corbyn wasn't in the race it's hard to make out you're a a radical politician when your husband attends the Bilderberg conference of the global elite. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33107662 It's much too late to redefine yourself. She should be focusing more on being a strong leader. Our Merkel.
Mr. Barber, that does sound like Freeman's Labour PPB.
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
This is because feminism is wrongly seen as a left wing ideology. Feminism is (or should be) politically neutral being a liberal ideology. The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
A liberal ideology would focus on equal rights and treatment for all, rather than concentrating on just one gender.
I quite agree, and most feminists would too. Feminism by advocating equality rather does imply that the other sex be equal too...
But feminism only concentrates on places where women are less equal, and is completely indifferent to where men are. I have not seen many feminists show concern about males doing worse at secondary education, being the main victims of war, being biased against in family courts, having worse health and shorter lives, receiving longer prison sentences for the same crime. In fact, on the last issue, I have heard feminists argue that we should concentrate on giving women even fewer prison sentences.
Feminism was a response to the unequal treatment of women. But, most modern feminist thinkers do indeed concern themselves with both sexes, see Bell Hooks as an example.
Ok, so what I'm taking out of this is that the label "Feminism" is being objected to rather than the aims and reality of what feminism is.
You should listen to the PB Tories, we've been right about how crap Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband would be.
PB Tories, always right, nothing more to learn, as we know everything
And Falkirk...
Have the PB Tories ever thought a Labour leader was good?
It depends on whether you mean good at politics, or good at governance. In the case mentioned by TheScreamingEagles, it seems to be discussing politics. Blair was certainly good at that.
There's different criteria to judge on being good leaders, here's why I consider these Labour leaders good, in no particular order
2) Ramsay MacDonald - Showed briefly Labour could be a government 4) Clement Attlee - Excellent Deputy PM who ran domestic affairs during WW2 and when he became PM set up the welfare state (which is some achievement, whether or not you agree with it)
5) Wilson - Helped bring in quite a lot of liberalism
6) Callaghan - Living Standards improved by 8% - Had he called an election in late 78, he would have won a majority, that's how well he was doing, so we'd have no Thatcherism, just think about that
8) Blair - His majorities showed he was a great politician.
So every single Labour PM up to 2007 was 'good'. Blimey, welcome to the fold - it sounds like your £3 would have been most acceptable had you chosen to spend it!
Out of interest what proportion of Conservative post-war leaders would you have counted as 'good'.
Don't damn TSE with faint praise. He said Blair was a good politician. He was a crap PM, not least because he let bonkers Brown spend spend spend when in fact he should have sacked him. He was re-elected against a weak and stupid opposition and after 2000 on a wave of deficit spending. Callaghan dumped 'In Place of Strife' - thats how crap he was. Wilson (and Callaghan!) devalued the Pound - but Wilson was an immense intellect and canny politician. His later illness was a sad affair. Atlee was an honourable man - last man out of Suva Bay. But ultimately he did not lead the UK out of WW2 terribly successfully. He set up the wrong model for the NHS and all the social reforms after WW2 had already been agreed by all parties via the wartime Beveridge Report.
*slaps Mr. Barber across the face with a large haddock*
I'll describe and define myself, if that's all the same to you. I am not a feminist. I agree with many feminists on most things. Some are foam-flecked man-hating lunatics.
It's ridiculous to use a term based on one gender for a group allegedly about gender equality.
I don't need a label. I don't want a label. This reminds me of when an idiot at school tried to claim I was an Anglican, after I told him I was an atheist.
I was simply pointing out that what you said you believed in can actually be described as feminist... The Venn diagram would be a circle.
I would argue that "foam-flecked man-hating lunatics" are not in fact feminist, but rather lunatics.
Comments
They will need to scale back their electoral expectations to modest performances in parish councils .... in North Korea.
Pleading won't cut it. Cooper just looks desperate.
Feminism isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-remove-infiltrators-votes-after-6240207
Or was that some sort of weird, special political blairite suicide 'cry for help' ?!
;-)
if you can be bothered...
Not happy with the pb attacks on her because she happens to talk about things more associated with women than men. Haven't men had enough opportunities to make messes of things? At least she is trying, unlike Burnham.
A leader should be chosen on merit, not to tick off a quota box. [As it happens, I said pre-contest, I'd probably vote for Cooper if I wanted Labour to do well. Her 'gosh, I'm a woman' approach is not appealing. I'd probably now go Kendall, Cooper, if I were voting and wanted Labour to do well].
Can't get in to lay some more Andy Burnham !!
I don't believe anyone should be applauded or discredited based on sharing a gender with other people.
Cyclefree's criticism that I was replying to wasn't about thinking that Iran is an "enemy", it was arguing that appearing on Press TV at all showed sympathy for Iran's views. I disagree with that. If Corbyn has said he supports Iran's policies that's a different matter, but I've not seen any such quote. JC has indeed argued that using bombs instead of arguments is wrong (though he also argues that the West's own actions - waterboarding etc. - are not defensible). I think you're basing your impression on sources hostile to JC who selectively quote him. He is undoubtedly sympathetic to Palestinians, in a less nuanced way than I am, but he's not anti-semitic (as the Harry's Place quote that you cited a while back concedes), nor does he see Israel as an enemy.
On boycotts, JC obviously isn't responsible for the views of everyone who supports him, so I'll just reply for myself. I'm opposed to a boycott of Israel, support its right to exist and defend itself by proportionate means (we can obviously debate what those are) and favour a dialogue with Israelis of all persuasions. I do see a case for boycotting products that are clearly from the occupied territories as a reflection of our disagreement (HMG policy, rather than some leftie idea) of the settlement of the West Bank preempting any agreement. Incidentally, I supported the boycott of Iran (on Press TV and elsewhere) as a non-violent way of getting them to reconsider their position.
Feminism is the advance of gender equality in all areas of life.
To say you are not a feminist is to say you don't believe that women should have equal treatment solely on the basis of them being women.
I am a feminist...
"If you're not Labour/a feminist, you're a bastard."
I reckon the domain name is still available
I expect his Labour Party to poll quite well for a bit and then voters will vote for someone else.
1) Keir Hardie - Helped set up/establish the Labour party
2) Ramsay MacDonald - Showed briefly Labour could be a government
3) Arthur Henderson - Was given the shittiest hand that any Labour leader has ever received and did well, relatively speaking
4) Clement Attlee - Excellent Deputy PM who ran domestic affairs during WW2 and when he became PM set up the welfare state (which is some achievement, whether or not you agree with it)
5) Wilson - Helped bring in quite a lot of liberalism
6) Callaghan - Living Standards improved by 8% - Had he called an election in late 78, he would have won a majority, that's how well he was doing, so we'd have no Thatcherism, just think about that
7) I didn't include Kinnock, but for all his flaws, he did take on militant, and that deserves praise
8) Blair - His majorities showed he was a great politician.
The problem is that many/all for the more vocal/militant activists come from the left.
What I was trying to tease out was whether any PB Tories would ever give a new Labour leader the benefit of the doubt, or whether a Labour leader was by definition 'crap'.
BTW, I'm sure it works both ways too.
His replacement is very likely to appear to be more impressive than the current candidates.
A dead cat could've won in 1997. Hague's a sound chap but the Conservatives, from fuzzy memory, were trying to eat their own head in 2001. Howard was sensible but only had a couple of years (could well be argued Blair's 2005 win was the most impressive, coming shortly after Iraq, against a competent Conservative leader).
Mr. JEO, it's a mildly hilarious irony that a movement supposedly about gender equality is named after one gender. It's like forming a racial equality movement and calling it whiteism.
Mr. Barber, hmm. Well, I believe in equality for the genders, but I'd never describe myself as a feminist, and the enormo-haddock feel much the same way.
For instance, many feminists believe in positive discrimination, and that is actually the opposite of equality.
Feminism is as broad a church as any 'ism', for instance fascism, socialism, conservatism. You cannot simply portray it without stepping into a minefield.
Unless you mean John Humphries interviewing Jeremy Corbyn would be enough to do it.
I guess it worked for IDS
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1422705/IDS-sees-funny-side-of-radio-grilling-by-Humphrys.html
http://order-order.com/2015/08/13/shameless-burnhams-nhs-news-management-chutzpah/
Out of interest what proportion of Conservative post-war leaders would you have counted as 'good'.
I'm sure the tories will remain centrists. Osborne is busy promoting city-state devolution. Hardly screaming right wing. He has just put up the minimum wage.
I'll describe and define myself, if that's all the same to you. I am not a feminist. I agree with many feminists on most things. Some are foam-flecked man-hating lunatics.
It's ridiculous to use a term based on one gender for a group allegedly about gender equality.
I don't need a label. I don't want a label. This reminds me of when an idiot at school tried to claim I was an Anglican, after I told him I was an atheist.
I recall palpable sense we were going down the pan at an ever increasing rate, falling ever further behind other W European countries. The Sick Man of Europe, the three day week, sitting in candlelight as the power was off, the farce that was B Leyland and the crap cars they made, the strikes, the IMF telling the elected Govt what to do (we beat Greece to it, if in microcosm, by nearly 40 years), inflation at 27% at its peak and pretty sustained double figures for long periods of time - try meaningfully building up cushion faced with that. And yes, the IRA. Heard bombs go off? Well Mr Corbyn of Islington seems to have taken a somewhat different view to many of us as to the causes and solutions. I will not forget that.
It was not all Callaghan et al of course (he personally I'm sure had the nation's interests at heart), and many of the causes far predated the 70's and both the Tory and Labour Govts of the time struggled.
I was there. It was crap. I don't want to go back.
"Jeremy doesn't have the confidence of the PLP" "The constituencies in London voting for him aren't representative of Labour"
Dan Jarvis really would be a formidable leader and 2018 would be good timing.
In order for this to work Labour has to get hammered in Local, Scottish and Welsh elections. I'm reminded of how PB Tory's used to cheer any Labour result that was poor but not disastrous like the Heywood and Middleton by-election as it meant Miliband would hang on.
@Morris_Dancer - Whiteism, perfect analogy.
Faced with a choice of poor quality shows and 2nd rate sports, or whatever programming the new kids on the block with massive budgets such as Google and Amazon will be dishing up, it's obvious where viewers will be heading.
The same ones will also be ever more vocal in their questioning of why they still have to buy a licence for a service they never use, and refusing to pay for it.
But, most modern feminist thinkers do indeed concern themselves with both sexes, see Bell Hooks as an example.
Ok, so what I'm taking out of this is that the label "Feminism" is being objected to rather than the aims and reality of what feminism is.
Will we get Stephen Byers commenting about how the vote has been influenced by people who can spare £3 ?
He said Blair was a good politician. He was a crap PM, not least because he let bonkers Brown spend spend spend when in fact he should have sacked him. He was re-elected against a weak and stupid opposition and after 2000 on a wave of deficit spending.
Callaghan dumped 'In Place of Strife' - thats how crap he was.
Wilson (and Callaghan!) devalued the Pound - but Wilson was an immense intellect and canny politician. His later illness was a sad affair.
Atlee was an honourable man - last man out of Suva Bay. But ultimately he did not lead the UK out of WW2 terribly successfully. He set up the wrong model for the NHS and all the social reforms after WW2 had already been agreed by all parties via the wartime Beveridge Report.
I would argue that "foam-flecked man-hating lunatics" are not in fact feminist, but rather lunatics.