The main case that the eurosceptics should make is how EU trade could be maintained, and expanded to other non-EU countries. If they can take away the pro-EU arguments on trade, that weakens the In side a lot. Someone should do an analysis of what a bilateral agreement with the EU should look like, and what the other top five trade deals would be. It would be very interesting to read some expert views on this.>
There is a lot of nonsense spoken about leaving the EU though. Listen to Mr Hannan's latest missive.(www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5IxebGGJfg). The key points of which are.
1. Leaving the political institutions of the EU does not mean leaving the internal market. No one in Brussels is suggesting such a thing, its a fabrication of British Europhiles.
2. We would no long have a say in the formation of EU regulations, but neither would we be bound by them except when selling into a EU market, but this is hardly news, if we sell into th e Japanese market we have to meet Japanese regulations, and critically not when selling to our own domestic market.
3. Swiss exports per capita to the EU as an EFTA country are 4.5x as much as UK exports per capita to the EU as an EU member. To the extent that the Swiss campaign to join the EU has thrown in the towel.
4. The Swiss signed a free trade deal with China six months ago, the EU deal has been put back over the horizon as being too difficult to meet the interests of all concerned.
There's little doubt that Britain would maintain free trade with the EU.
The real problems for the no side will be 1. short-term threat of diminution of product regulation, environmental and labour law; 2. long-term threat of a return to trade protectionism to aid special interest groups, and a return to state aid; 3. loss of British influence over policy of its nearest neighbours and more generally in any international matters involving USA/China etc. where the EU suffices as a partner.
If the reduction in product regulation is to get rid of a lot of the silly stuff about Feta having to be marketed as "Greek style salad cheese", then there shouldn't be too many worries. I also can't see how much influence over EU policy we will lose seeing that we can't even enforce a previous agreement we had signed on not spending from the EFSM. It seems like we lost all our influence in the EU a long time ago. The last time we won a big concession it was under Thatcher. Maybe Cameron will change that.
Surely Britain will keep in the PDO status regime to protect Stilton? I see an opportunity for the Lib Dems in cheese-producing constituencies if not.
@tyson I agree that it's very creepy. You can certainly tell that they not interested in you for your 'amazing' personality, put it that way. I'd prefer to date someone where I'm taken seriously.
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
It would be good to see a detailed examination of the trade deals places like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Canada and Australia that have been signed, and whether they would work for the UK.
The free trade deals signed by the EFTA countries (Norway, Iceland, and errr... that's about it) overlap almost exactly with those signed by the EU. The exceptions are Canada, where EFTA has signed one, but the EU's is still in process (although it will be ratified fairly shortly), and the GCC (the Gulf Cooperation Council) where negotiations appear to be stalled.
I don't think the "other free trade agreements" is a particularly persuasive argument for leaving the EU, nor do I think "we need to be in the EU to negotiate good trade deals" is a particularly good argument for staying in. If you look at the World Bank data (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS), the weighted average tariff rate we suffer is 1.0%, which is slightly better than the 1.5% that the US does.
Realistically, in the EU, out the EU, we'll trade on roughly the same terms we do now with pretty much anyone in the world. If anything, this is a small argument in favour of leaving: it's not so scary being a Switzerland or a Norway.
In fact the only argument - from a trade basis - that makes sense in terms of staying in the EU is that Australia and New Zealand (for example) when they signed up the Trans Pacific Partnership free trade deals had to agree to be bound by the US ISDS mechansim (investor state dispute settlement system). This means that (largely US) companies get to sue governments, on the basis that local laws discriminate against them. So, the Quebec government was forced to go back on democratically passed laws prohibiting the use of certain pesticides and herbicides, as they were adjudged to discriminate against American companies.
Hasn't the Canada one been about to be ratified for several years now? I also recall trade deals that Iceland and Switzerland have signed with China. It's not EFTA, but Australia signed one with India, which should be doable for us too.
I also wonder about the advantages of signing agreements with African nations: it would be good to reduce our food costs, and we could potentially save money on aid were we to just buy their products on a fair basis.
Is the ISDS system not in the proposed US-EU trade agreement?
In many societies such as Pakistan and India it's considered normal for men in their 40s and 50s (or even older) to marry very young women. How does that fit in with your theory?
Depends. For me personally, I consider anyone over 35+ the older generation. I know quite a few of my friends do as well.
I had a friend who moved to New York in 1980 in his early twenties - in those days the sexiest age was mid-thirties- of course by the time he got to his mid-thirties everyone was lusting after the early twenties......
Haven't blokes always lusted after young early 20s women?
Whether they get them though, is another matter.
My very good friend is in his mid 40's, and following a breakup, is back on the town so to speak. He claims it has never been easier for him to pick up younger women, often in their twenties.
For me, a more than ten year age gap is too much. I'd be embarrassed (like Plato) to be seen out to be honest, and I think mother nature programmes us to find prospective partners of a similar age attractive as we get older. How else do we stay and age together?
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
I live in the Philippines, ( and no I was not referring to geriatric westerners looking for younger ladies, and I referring to my observations of local people )
I agree about the sexualisation of teenagers. It's one thing for the law to allow children in their mid teens to naturally experiment. It's another for 50 year old men to be allowed to sleep with GCSE students. I would prefer an age of consent at 18, or even 21, but with exceptions for those within two or three years.
@Appocalypse- I wouldn't say he's good looking (he looks a bit like Sylvester Stallone), but he is charming, and wears a suit well and pretty loaded, very generous, and British.
Italian men are a parody. My Italian wife is very good looking, and striking- and coming to Italy, I have always had to cope with blokes staring at her. And they stare, I mean openly stare, at her bum when she walks past. This is something you don't even notice in the UK. I can see why my wife ended up with an English bloke.
He's loaded - well that explains it (as well as being charming)!
I thin the staring is a bit much too. I think it's natural to look, but I think individuals should do their best to be as subtle as they can.
@JEO I suppose it depends on whether they want to genuinely get to know someone, or whether they just want a trophy. Some I think aren't really interested in having a relationship, but someone who looks up to them and is easily pleased.
The main argument I've heard against leaving when it comes to the finance industry is that the Eurozone could somehow pass rules to demand stuff be based inside the EU. I would like to hear this argument in detail: the US tried to stop London getting a dollar trade, and they failed miserably.
To be fair, I don't think the restrictions on dollar trading were aimed at London, which was largely irrelevant at the time.
The Eurodollar market - which made London great - was created as a reaction to the attempts by the Feds to regulate dollar trading.
In my view, that's what would happen in the event of restrictions by the EU (assuming the UK was outside the bloc). Yes, passporting would making things more complicated, but it would be manageable, albeit at a cost & I think it would also offer some element of protection from currently London based EU money moving back onshore.
"On topic - yes it's a disgrace, and I'm left wondering how the SNP will wiggle out of this principle "
They will not wiggle out. Not much good at political strategy are you. The SNP will only allow members to join the HoL when it is at least partly elected.
What political or practical use would it be to the SNP or Scotland to have a handful of members?
That would be far inferior to their current stance of pointing out that the place is stuffed with unionist Scots who are often not merely unelected by Scotland, but actually electorally rejected/defeated, but who still have a role in governing Scotland?
They wriggled out of not voting on English-only matters by pledging to vote against the English fox hunting law being made the same as the existing Scottish fox hunting law. So SNP principles are worth as much as a wet piece of toilet paper.
I think SNP's current party regulation is that becoming a member of the H of L would result in automatic expulsion from the party.
I'm more concerned about crusty old male English Bishops for UK laws !!
Which will last as long as the SNP big wigs decide they want it to last. If Salmond decides he wants to join the other place then that regulation would be dropped PDQ.
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
@Indigo Ah, thanks for info (and the caveat - there is the stereotype of men going out to Asia to find brides).
@JEO I completely agree. One of my friends got involved with an older bloke some years ago (they've now broken up, but it's what made me view age-gap relationships negatively) and there was such a big power differential between her and him it was scary.
@tyson I agree that it's very creepy. You can certainly tell that they not interested in you for your 'amazing' personality, put it that way. I'd prefer to date someone where I'm taken seriously.
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
My Grandfather married a 22 year old aged 47 in 1923. They were very devoted to each other and had nearly 40 years of marriage. Mind you he may not have had a chance if so many other males in Manchester had not perished at the hands of our continental cousins.
Even a ten year gap is a very large one in terms of expectations in more normal times.
I agree about the sexualisation of teenagers. It's one thing for the law to allow children in their mid teens to naturally experiment. It's another for 50 year old men to be allowed to sleep with GCSE students. I would prefer an age of consent at 18, or even 21, but with exceptions for those within two or three years.
18 is adult so why should 21 be an issue whatsoever?
I don't see how two university students hooking up on a night out who are outside of your 2-3 year range is abuse.
It would be good to see a detailed examination of the trade deals places like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Canada and Australia that have been signed, and whether they would work for the UK.
The free trade deals signed by the EFTA countries (Norway, Iceland, and errr... that's about it) overlap almost exactly with those signed by the EU. The exceptions are Canada, where EFTA has signed one, but the EU's is still in process (although it will be ratified fairly shortly), and the GCC (the Gulf Cooperation Council) where negotiations appear to be stalled.
I don't think the "other free trade agreements" is a particularly persuasive argument for leaving the EU, nor do I think "we need to be in the EU to negotiate good trade deals" is a particularly good argument for staying in. If you look at the World Bank data (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS), the weighted average tariff rate we suffer is 1.0%, which is slightly better than the 1.5% that the US does.
Realistically, in the EU, out the EU, we'll trade on roughly the same terms we do now with pretty much anyone in the world. If anything, this is a small argument in favour of leaving: it's not so scary being a Switzerland or a Norway.
In fact the only argument - from a trade basis - that makes sense in terms of staying in the EU is that Australia and New Zealand (for example) when they signed up the Trans Pacific Partnership free trade deals had to agree to be bound by the US ISDS mechansim (investor state dispute settlement system). This means that (largely US) companies get to sue governments, on the basis that local laws discriminate against them. So, the Quebec government was forced to go back on democratically passed laws prohibiting the use of certain pesticides and herbicides, as they were adjudged to discriminate against American companies.
Hasn't the Canada one been about to be ratified for several years now? I also recall trade deals that Iceland and Switzerland have signed with China. It's not EFTA, but Australia signed one with India, which should be doable for us too.
I also wonder about the advantages of signing agreements with African nations: it would be good to reduce our food costs, and we could potentially save money on aid were we to just buy their products on a fair basis.
Is the ISDS system not in the proposed US-EU trade agreement?
Presumably if the ISDS issues are serious, they can be addressed in the WTO context to get global rules.
I can see arguments for allowing local democracy to set higher standards, but I can see also how such an arrangement could be systematically abused for protectionism purposes.
Hasn't the Canada one been about to be ratified for several years now? I also recall trade deals that Iceland and Switzerland have signed with China. It's not EFTA, but Australia signed one with India, which should be doable for us too.
I also wonder about the advantages of signing agreements with African nations: it would be good to reduce our food costs, and we could potentially save money on aid were we to just buy their products on a fair basis.
Is the ISDS system not in the proposed US-EU trade agreement?
The EFTA/Canada agreement has been in place for about five years. The EU/Canada agreement was completed last year, but has not yet been fully ratified. There are some substantial differences between the two agreements: the EFTA/Canada one is much more limited in scope, for example, and does not include quite a lot of different product types. The EU/Canada one is a bit broader (it covers 99% of EU-Canada trade), and contains provisions for enforcement of intellectual property - something I'm not sure is a good or a bad thing.
It is worth remembering that free trade agreements - in general - are easy to negotiate when two countries have non-overlapping interests. So, Iceland and China - easypeasy. There are no Icelandic banks trying to break into the Chinese banking market, for example. We would struggle to get a FTA with China because our major industries (professional services, financial services, intellectual property) are the ones that tend to have the biggest barriers in emerging markets.
Take India: to be worth something to the UK, a Free Trade Agreement would need to allow British banks and asset managers to sell to customers in India. That's not going to happen. Inside or outside the EU, the Indian government has been captured by producer interests and simply will not be allowing us that access. The same is true in China: when will my asset management firm be allowed to sell to Chinese customers? Errr... never, probably...
Regarding ISDS: I sincerely hope that ISDS is not included in the TIPP, although I'm not hopeful. The US essentially told the Australians and the New Zealander "take it or no deal". The EU is large enough that it has had (a very small amount) of spine, and the provisions I saw on the last draft, were merely bad rather than utterly outrageous (as the NAFTA provisions on the Canadians and the Mexicans are). If the EU were able to negotiate TIPP without ISDS, and they are in a theoretically better place to do so, then it would be pretty much the only example of the EU being better for trade.
But, to come to my original point: British exports suffer a weighted average 1.0% tariff. I don't think the trade argument is a particularly strong one either way.
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
I saw them at the Latitude festival 2 weeks ago. They were a real highlight, and Noel Gallagher was very good too, his best stuff for years.
I have seen Kasabian 3 times, including last year in Victoria Park Leicester. They always do a great show, though rather too much flying piss at the front for my taste. And you could taste it...
I am a big fan of Kasabian too, in fact I introduced my teenage lads to them. I haven't been to a concert in a while, but I am going to see Texas later this year with Fitaloon, we have both been fans of the band for years.
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
@tyson I agree that it's very creepy. You can certainly tell that they not interested in you for your 'amazing' personality, put it that way. I'd prefer to date someone where I'm taken seriously.
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
My Grandfather married a 22 year old aged 47 in 1923. They were very devoted to each other and had nearly 40 years of marriage. Mind you he may not have had a chance if so many other males in Manchester had not perished at the hands of our continental cousins.
Even a ten year gap is a very large one in terms of expectations in more normal times.
With ten years I think it depends on the ages. If a 45 year old was dating a 55 year old no one would blink an eyelid. It's more like when a 20 year old dates a 30 year old, or a 15 year old dates a 25 year old, that people start to notice.
Unsurprisingly, @SeanT has quite strong views on this - he thinks that men are programmed to lust after nubile females - and IIRC ones in their teens and twenties as they're at their most fertile/highest chance of bearing their offspring.
Older men may lust after young, nubile women but only the fools do anything about it.
Billy Connolly did a brilliant sketch about the 72 virgins thing that a certain brand of religious nutter seems to care about. He put it this way, virgins? Can you imagine what that would be like? You'd have to talk to them for a start! They would want lots of attention and "care" and "loving" and they wouldn't know what the f**k they were doing. Who would want to go through eternity with 72 Duran Duran fans, FFS? (His solution for ISIS was to send them a few jumbo jet loads of good whores).
Hasn't the Canada one been about to be ratified for several years now? I also recall trade deals that Iceland and Switzerland have signed with China. It's not EFTA, but Australia signed one with India, which should be doable for us too.
I also wonder about the advantages of signing agreements with African nations: it would be good to reduce our food costs, and we could potentially save money on aid were we to just buy their products on a fair basis.
Is the ISDS system not in the proposed US-EU trade agreement?
It is worth remembering that free trade agreements - in general - are easy to negotiate when two countries have non-overlapping interests. So, Iceland and China - easypeasy. There are no Icelandic banks trying to break into the Chinese banking market, for example. We would struggle to get a FTA with China because our major industries (professional services, financial services, intellectual property) are the ones that tend to have the biggest barriers in emerging markets.
Take India: to be worth something to the UK, a Free Trade Agreement would need to allow British banks and asset managers to sell to customers in India. That's not going to happen. Inside or outside the EU, the Indian government has been captured by producer interests and simply will not be allowing us that access. The same is true in China: when will my asset management firm be allowed to sell to Chinese customers? Errr... never, probably...
Yes. Similary, nobody is worried about being undercut by low-wage competition from Norway.
@Plato- nonsense about being too old. I never feel old, my wife goes bonkers at a gig parading a union jack, and I always like to position myself near the mosh pit so I can give people a good shove.
I managed a team of doctors, psychologists, therapists, nurses and so forth in the west country- mostly middle aged. Glastonbury- they all went on masse. As a joke I said I was going to do some drug testing the week they returned, and you should have seen their faces.
Unsurprisingly, @SeanT has quite strong views on this - he thinks that men are programmed to lust after nubile females - and IIRC ones in their teens and twenties as they're at their most fertile/highest chance of bearing their offspring.
Older men may lust after young, nubile women but only the fools do anything about it.
Billy Connolly did a brilliant sketch about the 72 virgins thing that a certain brand of religious nutter seems to care about. He put it this way, virgins? Can you imagine what that would be like? You'd have to talk to them for a start! They would want lots of attention and "care" and "loving" and they wouldn't know what the f**k they were doing. Who would want to go through eternity with 72 Duran Duran fans, FFS? (His solution for ISIS was to send them a few jumbo jet loads of good whores).
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
Dr Fox. Thanks for mentioning PBS. Just checked out some YouTubes - Spitfire and Signal 30. Both fun.
@Plato- nonsense about being too old. I never feel old, my wife goes bonkers at a gig parading a union jack, and I always like to position myself near the mosh pit so I can give people a good shove.
I managed a team of doctors, psychologists, therapists, nurses and so forth in the west country- mostly middle aged. Glastonbury- they all went on masse. As a joke I said I was going to do some drug testing the week they returned, and you should have seen their faces.
@Plato- nonsense about being too old. I never feel old, my wife goes bonkers at a gig parading a union jack, and I always like to position myself near the mosh pit so I can give people a good shove.
I managed a team of doctors, psychologists, therapists, nurses and so forth in the west country- mostly middle aged. Glastonbury- they all went on masse. As a joke I said I was going to do some drug testing the week they returned, and you should have seen their faces.
Slow pbCOM Saturday- has anyone here been to any gigs recently? be interesting to know how with it the pb fraternity is.
Firmly embedded in the 70s I'm afraid. Most recent gigs have been Fleetwood Mac, Eagles and Springsteen. Going to see Imagine Dragons in November.
I was certainly not the oldest at Latitude by quite a long way, but it does have an (accurate) reputation as a festival for the middle aged and middle class.
Noel Gallagher teased the crowd as looking like a Guardian Readers rally - and got a roar of approval!
@Richard Tyndall- it's funny how you can get stuck in an era of music. I was stuck for many year on 80's indies stuff, then on Dance Music, and now I just love everything. This year I've seen Elton John, Robbie Williams, Alabama Shakes, Paulo Nutini, Public Service Broadcasting, Mumford and Sons... and I've just bought a ticket today for Marilyn Manson, and considering Deep Purple.
@Indigo Ah, thanks for info (and the caveat - there is the stereotype of men going out to Asia to find brides).
You think I don't know I have lived here for half a decade!
What is it like living in the Philippines?
Very different. The people are great (any old guy thinking the local women are a pushover is in for a surprise, they set new standards in passive-aggressive ). We have had a lot of fun running a business locally, and I have had a good time teaching local poor kids English on the side and helping out at the local charity school. It is very much a third world country with all that entails, we love it here, but it's proved to be impossible to get a decent standard of education for our kids so I expect we will be back in the six months or so for our oldest to start GCSEs. Oh and you haven't seen bureaucracy until you live here
EXCEPT, I and many others pointed out before the Referendum that Salmond's view was simply that of one man, and could not bind others-and certainly not the people of Scotland, if they disagreed with him.
In any event, Salmond was issuing a warning to those who thought they could safely let pass the opportunity for independence, he was not making a vow to unionists.
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
Dr Fox. Thanks for mentioning PBS. Just checked out some YouTubes - Spitfire and Signal 30. Both fun.
It was Signal 30 that got me hooked. It was a very visually witty show live too. The Brixton Acadamy gig should be quite something. It is a great venue.
@tyson I agree that it's very creepy. You can certainly tell that they not interested in you for your 'amazing' personality, put it that way. I'd prefer to date someone where I'm taken seriously.
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
My Grandfather married a 22 year old aged 47 in 1923. They were very devoted to each other and had nearly 40 years of marriage. Mind you he may not have had a chance if so many other males in Manchester had not perished at the hands of our continental cousins.
Even a ten year gap is a very large one in terms of expectations in more normal times.
I once met a man in his late 50s, married to a 17 year old, who commented how strange it felt to drive his wife to school every morning.
Dr Fox- I love them, absolutely love them. "Go" for me is the single of the year. I saw them at Florence a couple of months ago. There was only about 30 people there, but they played a great one and a half hour gig.
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
Dr Fox. Thanks for mentioning PBS. Just checked out some YouTubes - Spitfire and Signal 30. Both fun.
@tyson I agree that it's very creepy. You can certainly tell that they not interested in you for your 'amazing' personality, put it that way. I'd prefer to date someone where I'm taken seriously.
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
My Grandfather married a 22 year old aged 47 in 1923. They were very devoted to each other and had nearly 40 years of marriage. Mind you he may not have had a chance if so many other males in Manchester had not perished at the hands of our continental cousins.
Even a ten year gap is a very large one in terms of expectations in more normal times.
With ten years I think it depends on the ages. If a 45 year old was dating a 55 year old no one would blink an eyelid. It's more like when a 20 year old dates a 30 year old, or a 15 year old dates a 25 year old, that people start to notice.
@Indigo Ah, thanks for info (and the caveat - there is the stereotype of men going out to Asia to find brides).
You think I don't know I have lived here for half a decade!
What is it like living in the Philippines?
Very different. The people are great (any old guy thinking the local women are a pushover is in for a surprise, they set new standards in passive-aggressive ). We have had a lot of fun running a business locally, and I have had a good time teaching local poor kids English on the side and helping out at the local charity school. It is very much a third world country with all that entails, we love it here, but it's proved to be impossible to get a decent standard of education for our kids so I expect we will be back in the six months or so for our oldest to start GCSEs. Oh and you haven't seen bureaucracy until you live here
It's nice to hear some good things about Third World countries, because they always get very negative publicity. It's quite worrying though that you've struggled to find a good education for your kids - it must be hard for the local kids there, especially those who are poor.
Unsurprisingly, @SeanT has quite strong views on this - he thinks that men are programmed to lust after nubile females - and IIRC ones in their teens and twenties as they're at their most fertile/highest chance of bearing their offspring.
Older men may lust after young, nubile women but only the fools do anything about it.
Billy Connolly did a brilliant sketch about the 72 virgins thing that a certain brand of religious nutter seems to care about. He put it this way, virgins? Can you imagine what that would be like? You'd have to talk to them for a start! They would want lots of attention and "care" and "loving" and they wouldn't know what the f**k they were doing. Who would want to go through eternity with 72 Duran Duran fans, FFS? (His solution for ISIS was to send them a few jumbo jet loads of good whores).
In any case, the 72 virgins may not be i) female ii) human.
Imagine 72 beta male baboons, denied sex by the alpha male.
There are always people who are just always older, no matter how young they are. Old souls. My friend's son is 13 and he unnerves me- he makes me feel juvenile and immature.
I would have taken you for being something of an old codger, in the best possible sense of course.
The last pop music concert I went to ( and the first since I was a teenager) was a couple of years ago in Southampton - Jethro Tull.
It was all a bit different from the first time I saw Jethro Tull (circa 1971). There were far more drugs being taken for a start, though the vast majority were on prescription and of course one had to go outside to smoke a whatever. Two full rows of seats had been removed to make way for wheelchair users and the paramedics were standing by with defibrillators. At the bar the chap complaining, there is always one, was not having a moan about having to have his drinkies in plastic "glasses", but because the white white was not cool enough and anyway didn't they have anything better than a "very ordinary" chardonnay. Ian Anderson did play whilst standing on one leg, but only for a very short and wobbly while and he certainly looked as though he needed a lie down afterwards.
That said, what with the curry beforehand, a nice fish supper with a few drinks afterwards and a comfortable hotel it was a good outing, probably one of the best that The Hurstpierpoint and District Gentlemen's Temperance Association has put on. However, "gigs" ain't what they used to be and I doubt I'll go to another.
I was the kid at school who was into Hawkwind. Although listening to Hawkwind without taking drugs was probably like watching a 3D movie without the glasses....
@Appocalypse- I wouldn't say he's good looking (he looks a bit like Sylvester Stallone), but he is charming, and wears a suit well and pretty loaded, very generous, and British.
Italian men are a parody. My Italian wife is very good looking, and striking- and coming to Italy, I have always had to cope with blokes staring at her. And they stare, I mean openly stare, at her bum when she walks past. This is something you don't even notice in the UK. I can see why my wife ended up with an English bloke.
He's loaded - well that explains it (as well as being charming)!
I thin the staring is a bit much too. I think it's natural to look, but I think individuals should do their best to be as subtle as they can.
@JEO I suppose it depends on whether they want to genuinely get to know someone, or whether they just want a trophy. Some I think aren't really interested in having a relationship, but someone who looks up to them and is easily pleased.
We - men and women - just do our staring more discreetly.
Just to respond to some posts (have been doing a few hours of writing)
Re: minimum age for HoL: I hesitated between 35 then 40 and then 45. It is really based on interviewing candidates for jobs. Many a younger person's education today has left them without a wide general knowledge (certainly far less than I had at 18) or even a wide knowledge of their specialism We need people with wide knowledge and experience and so tend to be recruiting those with grey hair or no hair. I well appreciate the problems of those having loans for tuition fees and maintenance but remain amazed at those who seem to spend a lot of money on alcohol and going out - something I could never afford on my uni scholarships.
Re: Gigs: Had to rescue family from the mud at WOMAD last weekend, but that place felt weird - a time-warp of would-be hippies. Presume the Proms don't count as a gig.
Re: Older men and younger women: Interesting how it changes over time - in the 1700s and 18000s it was quite common for men of 50 or 60 to marry ladies in the early 20s - the men had made their fortune by then. Of course it is said, that many lades like to 'mate' with the bad and thrilling guys but want the steady and secure ones as fathers for their children. However, it is not unknown nowadays when a man loses a well paid job, that he is divorced if he can no longer keep his wife in the manner to which she has become accustomed.
"On topic - yes it's a disgrace, and I'm left wondering how the SNP will wiggle out of this principle "
They will not wiggle out. Not much good at political strategy are you. The SNP will only allow members to join the HoL when it is at least partly elected.
What political or practical use would it be to the SNP or Scotland to have a handful of members?
That would be far inferior to their current stance of pointing out that the place is stuffed with unionist Scots who are often not merely unelected by Scotland, but actually electorally rejected/defeated, but who still have a role in governing Scotland?
They wriggled out of not voting on English-only matters by pledging to vote against the English fox hunting law being made the same as the existing Scottish fox hunting law. So SNP principles are worth as much as a wet piece of toilet paper.
I think SNP's current party regulation is that becoming a member of the H of L would result in automatic expulsion from the party.
I'm more concerned about crusty old male English Bishops for UK laws !!
Which will last as long as the SNP big wigs decide they want it to last. If Salmond decides he wants to join the other place then that regulation would be dropped PDQ.
Why would he want to lower himself to be in with a bunch of useless deadbeats.
I was the kid at school who was into Hawkwind. Although listening to Hawkwind without taking drugs was probably like watching a 3D movie without the glasses....
'I was the kid at school who was into Hawkwind. Although listening to Hawkwind without taking drugs was probably like watching a 3D movie without the glasses....'
I remember them playing at Cafe des Artistes just off the Fulham road, a great venue for up and coming bands.
Comments
http://publicservicebroadcasting.net/
@Plato LOL I'm not remotely surprised. He's probably right that's the case, however there's a difference between attraction, and actually pursuing young women. I'm very much against the sexualisation of young girls in their teens in particular, having experienced it and I think if men are attracted to young teen girls they should do their best to ignore it. Many of that age are very naive, and can be easily played and used.
From what I've read though, is that women in their teens actually are not at the best age to give birth - in fact for women 18 and under, their bodies are generally not ready physically ready for childbirth. Women tend to be most ready to give birth and most fertile in their early to late twenties.
@Indigo, what part of the world do you live (out of interest?)
I also wonder about the advantages of signing agreements with African nations: it would be good to reduce our food costs, and we could potentially save money on aid were we to just buy their products on a fair basis.
Is the ISDS system not in the proposed US-EU trade agreement?
Of course that is wrong. It's backward, and based on male control. In Greek times it was acceptable to sodomise young boys.Times move on.
I agree about the sexualisation of teenagers. It's one thing for the law to allow children in their mid teens to naturally experiment. It's another for 50 year old men to be allowed to sleep with GCSE students. I would prefer an age of consent at 18, or even 21, but with exceptions for those within two or three years.
I thin the staring is a bit much too. I think it's natural to look, but I think individuals should do their best to be as subtle as they can.
@JEO I suppose it depends on whether they want to genuinely get to know someone, or whether they just want a trophy. Some I think aren't really interested in having a relationship, but someone who looks up to them and is easily pleased.
The Eurodollar market - which made London great - was created as a reaction to the attempts by the Feds to regulate dollar trading.
In my view, that's what would happen in the event of restrictions by the EU (assuming the UK was outside the bloc). Yes, passporting would making things more complicated, but it would be manageable, albeit at a cost & I think it would also offer some element of protection from currently London based EU money moving back onshore.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/clinton-releases-tax-medical-records-emails-made-public-32821312
You must have gone to the gig at the Leicester Space Centre I guess.
I love Kasabian too- good Leicester lads- I saw them in Rome last year
@JEO I completely agree. One of my friends got involved with an older bloke some years ago (they've now broken up, but it's what made me view age-gap relationships negatively) and there was such a big power differential between her and him it was scary.
Even a ten year gap is a very large one in terms of expectations in more normal times.
I don't see how two university students hooking up on a night out who are outside of your 2-3 year range is abuse.
I can see arguments for allowing local democracy to set higher standards, but I can see also how such an arrangement could be systematically abused for protectionism purposes.
It is worth remembering that free trade agreements - in general - are easy to negotiate when two countries have non-overlapping interests. So, Iceland and China - easypeasy. There are no Icelandic banks trying to break into the Chinese banking market, for example. We would struggle to get a FTA with China because our major industries (professional services, financial services, intellectual property) are the ones that tend to have the biggest barriers in emerging markets.
Take India: to be worth something to the UK, a Free Trade Agreement would need to allow British banks and asset managers to sell to customers in India. That's not going to happen. Inside or outside the EU, the Indian government has been captured by producer interests and simply will not be allowing us that access. The same is true in China: when will my asset management firm be allowed to sell to Chinese customers? Errr... never, probably...
Regarding ISDS: I sincerely hope that ISDS is not included in the TIPP, although I'm not hopeful. The US essentially told the Australians and the New Zealander "take it or no deal". The EU is large enough that it has had (a very small amount) of spine, and the provisions I saw on the last draft, were merely bad rather than utterly outrageous (as the NAFTA provisions on the Canadians and the Mexicans are). If the EU were able to negotiate TIPP without ISDS, and they are in a theoretically better place to do so, then it would be pretty much the only example of the EU being better for trade.
But, to come to my original point: British exports suffer a weighted average 1.0% tariff. I don't think the trade argument is a particularly strong one either way.
I have seen Kasabian 3 times, including last year in Victoria Park Leicester. They always do a great show, though rather too much flying piss at the front for my taste. And you could taste it...
Billy Connolly did a brilliant sketch about the 72 virgins thing that a certain brand of religious nutter seems to care about. He put it this way, virgins? Can you imagine what that would be like? You'd have to talk to them for a start! They would want lots of attention and "care" and "loving" and they wouldn't know what the f**k they were doing. Who would want to go through eternity with 72 Duran Duran fans, FFS? (His solution for ISIS was to send them a few jumbo jet loads of good whores).
I managed a team of doctors, psychologists, therapists, nurses and so forth in the west country- mostly middle aged. Glastonbury- they all went on masse. As a joke I said I was going to do some drug testing the week they returned, and you should have seen their faces.
What is it like living in the Philippines?
Noel Gallagher teased the crowd as looking like a Guardian Readers rally - and got a roar of approval!
Seasick Steve was good too.
How were Fleetwood Mac BTW?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2qXfmo6dEw
"Not much good at political history are you?
"Once in a generation" "
EXCEPT, I and many others pointed out before the Referendum that Salmond's view was simply that of one man, and could not bind others-and certainly not the people of Scotland, if they disagreed with him.
In any event, Salmond was issuing a warning to those who thought they could safely let pass the opportunity for independence, he was not making a vow to unionists.
Mr. Llama, leaving aside that requires more purchasing, I'm not sure of having a waistcoat with a t-shirt.
Ms. Apocalypse, hmm. In that case, I don't think you'd count me as older generation.
That said, I do remember world without (commonplace) mobile phones. Or the internet being in much use.
Try Everest too. It sends chills down my neck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWw53rkVRM
Imagine 72 beta male baboons, denied sex by the alpha male.
There are always people who are just always older, no matter how young they are. Old souls. My friend's son is 13 and he unnerves me- he makes me feel juvenile and immature.
I would have taken you for being something of an old codger, in the best possible sense of course.
"Er, no mate - that's a Dalek. RUN!!!!!"
It was all a bit different from the first time I saw Jethro Tull (circa 1971). There were far more drugs being taken for a start, though the vast majority were on prescription and of course one had to go outside to smoke a whatever. Two full rows of seats had been removed to make way for wheelchair users and the paramedics were standing by with defibrillators. At the bar the chap complaining, there is always one, was not having a moan about having to have his drinkies in plastic "glasses", but because the white white was not cool enough and anyway didn't they have anything better than a "very ordinary" chardonnay. Ian Anderson did play whilst standing on one leg, but only for a very short and wobbly while and he certainly looked as though he needed a lie down afterwards.
That said, what with the curry beforehand, a nice fish supper with a few drinks afterwards and a comfortable hotel it was a good outing, probably one of the best that The Hurstpierpoint and District Gentlemen's Temperance Association has put on. However, "gigs" ain't what they used to be and I doubt I'll go to another.
Re: minimum age for HoL: I hesitated between 35 then 40 and then 45. It is really based on interviewing candidates for jobs. Many a younger person's education today has left them without a wide general knowledge (certainly far less than I had at 18) or even a wide knowledge of their specialism We need people with wide knowledge and experience and so tend to be recruiting those with grey hair or no hair.
I well appreciate the problems of those having loans for tuition fees and maintenance but remain amazed at those who seem to spend a lot of money on alcohol and going out - something I could never afford on my uni scholarships.
Re: Gigs: Had to rescue family from the mud at WOMAD last weekend, but that place felt weird - a time-warp of would-be hippies. Presume the Proms don't count as a gig.
Re: Older men and younger women: Interesting how it changes over time - in the 1700s and 18000s it was quite common for men of 50 or 60 to marry ladies in the early 20s - the men had made their fortune by then. Of course it is said, that many lades like to 'mate' with the bad and thrilling guys but want the steady and secure ones as fathers for their children. However, it is not unknown nowadays when a man loses a well paid job, that he is divorced if he can no longer keep his wife in the manner to which she has become accustomed.
But I'm intrigued that you went there. Care to share why?
'I was the kid at school who was into Hawkwind. Although listening to Hawkwind without taking drugs was probably like watching a 3D movie without the glasses....'
I remember them playing at Cafe des Artistes just off the Fulham road, a great venue for up and coming bands.