Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
What are you doing to help them?
Hand wringing whilst reading your rental income statements in a sunlit Italian cafe doesn't count.
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
Spoke to Labour Party activists who tell me in their area, new members are overwhelmingly pro Corbin. He nearly won the CLP nomination in a middle England marginal constituency. The "old timers" are very concerned about the future.
the old timers I know- long standing party members, a pretty moderate and generally sensible bunch, are going for Corbyn too.
Mike- the Hillary Benn reference is just not relevant here. Corbyn's going to sail through
Agreed. Everything I am hearing tells me he is going to walk it. Should that be the case, it will see the end of Burnham and Cooper, and the other detritus of the Blair/Brown years who really should have gone away a long time ago. Corbyn will struggle along for a couple of years or so, Labour will be mashed in Scotland, London and the English regions next year (though may fare better in Wales) and the search will be on for the person who will lead the party into the 2020 elections.
Interesting point - Corbyn the domestos to eradicate those left clinging on from the 97-10 Govt and leave a new generation to replace him pre-2020.
"Who would bet against an English branch of the SNP committed to the break-up of the UK on a xenophobic manifesto with a few social democratic platitudes doing well in the current climate against a Corbyn-led Labour party?"
You mean the Conservative party?
I don't think the Conservatives are committed to the break-up of the UK They may bring it about through sheer ineptitude and complacency, but it's not going to be in their manifesto.
No, they would not be that explicit. But everything they have done and said since the referendum seems designed to bring it about. If they were genuinely interested in saving it there would now be plans in place for a constitutional convention.
I think it much more likely they are resisting and dissembling to try to avoid the problem and that may hasten that outcome rather than it being their plan. The former requires a lot less hiding of motives and much less discipline, which I don't think they have.
A constitutional convention was a good idea though
No, it's not a good idea. It only works if you have a reasonable counterparty.
In practice it will be a ratchet. At every turn the SNP will make the case - quite reasonably - for more independence. The convention will reach a reasonable settlement that is fair to all parts of the UK.
And then the wailing will start. "Oh the English, the English, the evil Tories are oppressing us".
It will achieve nothing except to move the baseline further towards devolution.
The SNP aren't ready to settle yet. For comparison (although obvious not equating the two), it made no sense to talk to Sinn Fein in the 1980s. But by the mid 1990s the PIRA was ready to surrender, so it made sense to open negotiations.
The SNP would be one party among many at a constitutional convention. And the results would be put to a referendum vote across the UK. What will not work are short term measures imposed by whichever party - elected by a minority - holds the levers of power at Westminster. That plays right into the SNP's hands.
Out of interest, I looked up the benefits entitlement for asylum seekers. Basically, it's £37/week cash plus accommodation for a single adult over 18. Plus free healthcare, prescriptions etc. If your asylum application is refused, you will get £35/week on a card (so can only be used for food and essentials), plus accommodation. https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get
Pretty awful in the grand scheme of things, but more generous than anything offered by France/Italy/Spain, presumably?
Easy solution - doesn't count if you can't prove how you've arrived, and where from. At the same time, making sure to deport failed applications back to last safe country.
It's not just that: the chances of finding work in the UK are much, much higher than in other countries in Europe.
1. We have low unemployment (albeit, so do the Germans, and a few other places). 2. The most likely language for an economic migrant to speak is... English. 3. We don't have ID cards, so it's much easier for employers to say "Sorry gov', he told me he was English, and he had an NI number and all..."
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
What are you doing to help them?
Hand wringing whilst reading your rental income statements in a sunlit Italian cafe doesn't count.
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
So are you helping them financially or in kind or just giving advice on where is the best place to settle in Europe - have they tried Russia - plenty of space there.
I see, thanks. I thought it was some kind of bizarre party game that I'd not heard of. The context makes it clearer. Who would have thought Mr Prudence changed by deed poll to Profligacy would try to swindle his mates out of a drink? Almost anyone, I imagine...
I can't remember what the issue was, but @SeanT made a similar comparison using drunk youths being encouraged by a risk-taking mate to go down to the beach and splash about in the sea at midnight.
Most think, Yeah! and then as the cold water beckons - 80% of them have a self-preservation moment and don't run into the black waves. Some will do it because of peer pressure or for the lark. And some won't come back as a result.
Are Labour's entryists and easily led about to be adrenline junkies or step back when facing the ballot paper?
It seems to be the former right now, will Yvette get a big slab of sensible heads when they sober up? I've absolutely no idea.
Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad. The choice of EdM was madness. Corbyn promises destruction. Labour is unworthy of rational political analysis.
They're not mad; they're on the political equivalent of a very heavy night on the town - having a very enjoyable time and expressing their real feelings. They may wake up in the morning with a banging hangover, wondering where the money went and what that stain is on their trousers.
You think Labour are on a bender, I think they're on a death ride. There will be no morning after.
Were Jezza to be elected Labour leader (he won't be), he would be asked his views on the Calais crisis. I'm sure his heart would say "let them all in". And there's a fair chance, he would act on that.
There's still time for that to happen, or have I missed it?
Anyone who takes bricks in a plastic bag to a party is not to be trusted.
I missed that reference. Could you please explain it?
Allegedly Gordon wrote a handbook of sponging when a student. Amongst other things he recommended arriving at a party with a bag of empty tins weughed down with a brick to give the illusion of being full then drinking other people's beer. A metaphor for his life as chancellor!
I think that the right to work while seeking asylum was withdrawn by the Labour government 15 years ago, as by making an asylum claim (which often takes years) in effect anyone could grant themselves a UK work visa.
"Social security hand-outs should be regarded as "free money", the "so-called welfare State" should be used wherever possible and there's nothing wrong with squatting or being a "parasite".
These are views in a guide on how to scrounge off the State, "con" private firms and "use and abuse the system", published by the man set to become Prime Minister.
It is not a leaked copy of Gordon Brown's manifesto in his campaign to succeed Tony Blair, but a 200-page booklet produced as a socialist student leader in the Seventies, long before "stealth taxes" were invented.
However, cynics will say the seeds of the welfare State boom under Labour can be seen in the document edited by 22-year-old firebrand Brown when Rector of Edinburgh University.
Entitled Alternative Edinburgh, it provides a revealing insight into his attitudes to the State and the law in its suggestions of ways to live for free."
Spoke to Labour Party activists who tell me in their area, new members are overwhelmingly pro Corbin. He nearly won the CLP nomination in a middle England marginal constituency. The "old timers" are very concerned about the future.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Anyone who takes bricks in a plastic bag to a party is not to be trusted.
I missed that reference. Could you please explain it?
Allegedly Gordon wrote a handbook of sponging when a student. Amongst other things he recommended arriving at a party with a bag of empty tins weughed down with a brick to give the illusion of being full then drinking other people's beer. A metaphor for his life as chancellor!
I think that the right to work while seeking asylum was withdrawn by the Labour government 15 years ago, as by making an asylum claim (which often takes years) in effect anyone could grant themselves a UK work visa.
Whoever did it, it was a pretty stupid decision. Apart from anything else, it would be far easier to keep track of economic migrants posing as asylum seekers if they were working for legal companies for wages on which they paid tax than if they slip into the underworld and work for gangmasters. Cheaper too, from all points of view.
Spoke to Labour Party activists who tell me in their area, new members are overwhelmingly pro Corbin. He nearly won the CLP nomination in a middle England marginal constituency. The "old timers" are very concerned about the future.
That makes sense. If you're in a safe leafy tory seat, the type of people attacted to labour will be more likely to be the ones which rebel against that.
"Social security hand-outs should be regarded as "free money", the "so-called welfare State" should be used wherever possible and there's nothing wrong with squatting or being a "parasite".
These are views in a guide on how to scrounge off the State, "con" private firms and "use and abuse the system", published by the man set to become Prime Minister.
It is not a leaked copy of Gordon Brown's manifesto in his campaign to succeed Tony Blair, but a 200-page booklet produced as a socialist student leader in the Seventies, long before "stealth taxes" were invented.
However, cynics will say the seeds of the welfare State boom under Labour can be seen in the document edited by 22-year-old firebrand Brown when Rector of Edinburgh University.
Entitled Alternative Edinburgh, it provides a revealing insight into his attitudes to the State and the law in its suggestions of ways to live for free."
Brown was a disgrace. He did pretty much everything he could to damage the Country before he was ousted. A more revolting politician it would be hard to think of. I have nothing but disgust for the man.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
On Newsnight yesterday, there were accounts from lorry drivers of the threats and intimidation they receive (including physical).
However, it puzzles me as to why the doors of the lorries seem to be unlocked?
"Social security hand-outs should be regarded as "free money", the "so-called welfare State" should be used wherever possible and there's nothing wrong with squatting or being a "parasite".
These are views in a guide on how to scrounge off the State, "con" private firms and "use and abuse the system", published by the man set to become Prime Minister.
It is not a leaked copy of Gordon Brown's manifesto in his campaign to succeed Tony Blair, but a 200-page booklet produced as a socialist student leader in the Seventies, long before "stealth taxes" were invented.
However, cynics will say the seeds of the welfare State boom under Labour can be seen in the document edited by 22-year-old firebrand Brown when Rector of Edinburgh University.
Entitled Alternative Edinburgh, it provides a revealing insight into his attitudes to the State and the law in its suggestions of ways to live for free."
Brown was a disgrace. He did pretty much everything he could to damage the Country before he was ousted. A more revolting politician it would be hard to think of. I have nothing but disgust for the man.
I'll second that. I'd extend that disgust to the party that meekly acquiesced in his (and his coterie of political scum - including the husband of one of the candidates for the top job) bullying to get the top job.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
The fences we are building are to keep them out. The Nazis built fences to keep them in..
These are economic migrants. Ask the French or listen to what they are saying to us.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
There was a fascinating programme on the World Service this morning (I think at 3.30am, but it might have been 4am) called "Asylum".
Basically interviews with a bunch of people who had come through Libya on a boat (it was actually based around someone who ran a rescue ship in the Med) Almost all of the people interviewed were economic migrants and were very clear on that. Sold what they had and paid $3,000 a head to traffickers (one paid $22,000 for 10, so guess he negotiated a discount!).
Arrived in Italy - refused to be fingerprinted bbecause they knew if they were they'd have to stay there. Mass breakout from the refugee camp; police didn't chase them; and they all headed north. One ended up in Sweden, one in Switzerland and a bunch in Calais.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
No it doesn't. The fences in Warsaw and Krakow were designed to keep people in. The fences at Calais are designed to keep people out.
As for 'demonising' them - that would apply if it was the government that was repeating these stories. I haven't heard them do that. Ordinary people in Nazi Germany did not, by and large, make up stories about the evil Jews - that was done by Streicher and Goebbels. These stories appear to be originating from lorry drivers. They may be invented, or exaggerated, but they do not seem to be a conspiracy.
If you cannot see the fairly important difference between those two situations, I do not think your hysterical views are worth paying much attention to.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Your energies would be better spent persuading the Italian authorities to let these people work in your adopted country. Looking at the demographics, Italy is more 'hideously white' than the UK, and would no doubt benefit from some ethnic dilution.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Andy Burham looks less and and less like a PM each day doesn't he..
Yes, I find myself baffled why I thought him the best of the bunch last time, and have concluded it must have been my wish not to be on the Miliband bandwagon, disliking Balls, and Abbot's inclusion being a disgrace (she got leant nominations like Corbyn, but in her case someone else withdrew to transfer their supporters to her, and on the explicit basis of her sex alone).
Kendall's not made a splash, so Cooper seems the safe choice, whcih she pitched for early on, presumably as she is playing it so bland, but she is experiened and more formidible than her husband without being as divisive, upfront at least.
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
So are you helping them financially or in kind or just giving advice on where is the best place to settle in Europe - have they tried Russia - plenty of space there.
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
It is worth remembering that most of these people crossed the Mediterranean to get to Italy, before moving on to the rest of Europe.
It would be in our best interests to offer the Italians naval help in stopping the migrants. Once migrants get into mainland Europe, at least some are going to end up getting to Calais, or getting across the Channel.
Very much so. By all means rescue sinking boats, but then return them to Libya.
Andy Burham looks less and and less like a PM each day doesn't he..
Yes, I find myself baffled why I thought him the best of the bunch last time, and have concluded it must have been my wish not to be on the Miliband bandwagon, disliking Balls, and Abbot's inclusion being a disgrace (she got leant nominations like Corbyn, but in her case someone else withdrew to transfer their supporters to her, and on the explicit basis of her sex alone).
Kendall's not made a splash, so Cooper seems the safe choice, whcih she pitched for early on, presumably as she is playing it so bland, but she is experiened and more formidible than her husband without being as divisive, upfront at least.
I'm in the same situation. However, I think he was more sensible in 2010 than he has since become, and also I suspect he had convinced himself he was going to win this time and is now baffled and panicking as his prize slips from his grasp.
He's still arguably the best candidate though...which is a truly frightening indictment of the Labour party.
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
So are you helping them financially or in kind or just giving advice on where is the best place to settle in Europe - have they tried Russia - plenty of space there.
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
Most of Africa's population would be better off in London. It doesn't mean we open our doors to them.
I thought you were taking the michael mouse the other night when you came out with that tosh, a kind of late night "Let's wind up a bleeding heart, liberal mood."
If you really think that I wouldn't like to be in your head- not the most pleasant of places.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Ludicrous Godwinism there from Tyson. You are as bad as the idiot woman on The World Tonight last night who was accusing Eurotunnel of making up the numbers of people attacking the terminal even though every single one is documented.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Oh, do shut up Tyson. Your sneering sense of moral superiority is as obvious as it is repugnant.
We don't need to take any lectures from you on humanity or suffer your highly patronising and condescening slights on the rest of the PB community, just because you feel guilty about your wealth, privilege and laziness and want to use others to triangulate your own position and publicly emote your sense of superiority in your views to make yourself feel better.
I actually consider that the height of selfishness and rudeness. Not humanity.
PS. You've just fallen foul of Godwin's law, thereby making yourself look ridiculous too. Well done.
Andy Burham looks less and and less like a PM each day doesn't he..
I fail to see how those eyebrows could in all seriousness be owned by a LotO. Sorry it's not his fault and I know there's a Cara thing going on right now, but really.
At least it looks like he's toned down the blusher.
I hate to be so lookist but it is a factor. As much as a beard and/or a donkey jacket might be. (I know it wasn't a donkey jacket.)
Seeing how terse the immigration debate here is, I wonder if that could prove a significant area for policy announcements from Labour's leadership contenders.
swarm swɔːm noun 1. ........ a large number of people or things. "a swarm of journalists" " 2. move somewhere in large numbers. "protesters were swarming into the building" synonyms: flock, crowd, throng, stream, surge, flood, seethe, pack, crush "reporters and photographers were swarming all over the place"
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
So are you helping them financially or in kind or just giving advice on where is the best place to settle in Europe - have they tried Russia - plenty of space there.
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
You're in the fortunate position of being a wealthy landlord, clearly you should house these unfortunates rent free.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
There was a fascinating programme on the World Service this morning (I think at 3.30am, but it might have been 4am) called "Asylum".
Basically interviews with a bunch of people who had come through Libya on a boat (it was actually based around someone who ran a rescue ship in the Med) Almost all of the people interviewed were economic migrants and were very clear on that. Sold what they had and paid $3,000 a head to traffickers (one paid $22,000 for 10, so guess he negotiated a discount!).
Arrived in Italy - refused to be fingerprinted bbecause they knew if they were they'd have to stay there. Mass breakout from the refugee camp; police didn't chase them; and they all headed north. One ended up in Sweden, one in Switzerland and a bunch in Calais.
But all off them for economic reasons
Sssht. Don't mention such inconvenient truths, Charles.
You'll upset tyson who'll consider them "utterly appalling" views.
@richard tyndall- another one that thinks the migrants are criminals. Scaremongering and negativity works as a way of spreading fear and hatred. Tried, proved, tested and very effective.
@sean fear- doubtless many Africans would be better off in London. But isn't that the point of migration- where the fittest, the most able, the best migrate to improve their lives and in doing so raise the bar all round. Called genetics, Darwinism, evolution.
I thought you were taking the michael mouse the other night when you came out with that tosh, a kind of late night "Let's wind up a bleeding heart, liberal mood."
If you really think that I wouldn't like to be in your head- not the most pleasant of places.
I've met, and had a drink with Sean Fear.
I can assure you he's an entirely sensible, rational - and most importantly - fair individual.
Betting post: Paddy Power Ben Bradshaw to finish last in the Deputy Leader contest @ evens. Bradshaw is off the pace in this contest, comes from a region with relatively low numbers of Labour Party members and does not have a big natural constituency in the selectorate. He has 16 CLPs nominating him far fewer than the others apart from Angela Eagle on 19. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/which-clps-are-nominating-who-labour-leadership-contest
This doesn't mean Eagle is going to win - I'm confident victory will go to Tom Watson after a strong showing from Caroline Flint and Stella Creasy. But Eagle will do well enough in this selectorate to have clear water between her and Ben Bradshaw. I think there's an 80-85% chance that Bradshaw will finish last, so the evens represents good value. My advice with Paddy Power is try the phones and shops for larger stakes than the website.
Mr. Topping, cheers. Pop culture is not necessarily my strong point.
That said, Lord Guan (Guan Yu), the Chinese patron saint of war and main character in the Three Kingdoms, was renowned for having eyebrows like a silkworm.
Hmm. Although now I write that I could be mistaking him for Zhang Fei.
@richard tyndall- another one that thinks the migrants are criminals. Scaremongering and negativity works as a way of spreading fear and hatred. Tried, proved, tested and very effective.
@sean fear- doubtless many Africans would be better off in London. But isn't that the point of migration- where the fittest, the most able, the best migrate to improve their lives and in doing so raise the bar all round. Called genetics, Darwinism, evolution.
Strange as it may seem, we do let people emigrate to the UK. Legally. That doesn't mean we should admit people who refuse to play by the rules. Anyone who thinks they're entitled to use violence to come to the UK is, by definition, someone we don't want.
To add, one of the other reasons why Eagle will do better than initially expected is that quite a few Corbyn backers will want to see a gender-balanced leadership team and will reasonably open to giving their vote to one of the female deputy candidates. Eagle has put herself in the best position to do well out of this.
Mr. Eagles, I'm sure Burnham's full of intellectual self-confidence.
Although so far it's resembling the confidence of Crassus as he marched to Carrhae.
When Corbyn wins, will he pour molten gold in Burnham's mouth?
Corbyn talks with confidence because he has had 50 years of developing and confirming his prejudices in isolation without any intellectually rigorous attempt to refute them.
You are using some very poor logic here. Stigmatising people as cockroaches is disgusting dehumanisation and should be opposed. Accurately, describing people breaking into lorries and damaging property as criminals is entirely legitimate. Putting aside your egregious use of Godwin's law, is it true they described the people described the Jews as criminals. It is also true that people described the Mafia as criminals. This situation is more like the latter: we are describing people as criminals not based on their ethnicity, but on their criminal behaviour.
If people desire to immigrte between countries then there are processes and rules to be followed, I've known quite a few immigrants and would-be who have followed these rules or found they were not eligible and so either have or have not moved here.
None of them however are trying to break into the country on a back of a lorry from Calais. We should be fair and just to those who are trying to follow legal rules, and absolubtely not allow people to stay who have made no attempt to follow legal process.
I heard a BBC reporter on Today, describing the scenes she'd witnessed at Coquelles last night.
Is it too much to expect for Theresa May to get out from behind her comfy desk in Whitehall, and visit the problem herself one evening? She sure as hell should - this is a major vote loser for her party, particularly in Kent.
Seems a long way from Dover, but it's probably a better idea than 'Operation Stack' is proving. Extra ferries from Ramsgate perhaps?
Using Manston isn't as straightforward as it seems, most of the traffic comes down the M20, getting to Manston from there would be a nightmare, similarly the M2. Rerouting the traffic from the M2 down the Thenet Way is a possibility but again not easy.
The berths at Ramsgate aren't big enough to take the ferries.
I'm not sure the Calais situation is any worse today, than it was a few weeks ago. Is it just 'idle journalists' ramping the story up? The summer recess, is a time of maximum danger for all governments. David Cameron's frustration is probably because he is on another foreign 'trade' trip' and he is getting bogged down with this.
I don't think I have heard a single commentator ask any of the Labour leadership candidates a question about Calais or immigration. We know Jeremy Corbyn would just let them all in, what about the others?
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
It is worth remembering that most of these people crossed the Mediterranean to get to Italy, before moving on to the rest of Europe.
It would be in our best interests to offer the Italians naval help in stopping the migrants. Once migrants get into mainland Europe, at least some are going to end up getting to Calais, or getting across the Channel.
We did. But the EU voted that naval help involved scooping them out of the water and delivering them to Sicily. Where they find their way to the train station...
Our best interests would be served - as we advocated - by saving them from the drowning and returning them to their point of embarkation
Doubtless many Africans would be better off in London. But isn't that the point of migration- where the fittest, the most able, the best migrate to improve their lives and in doing so raise the bar all round. Called genetics, Darwinism, evolution.
That's not really Darwinism or evolution (and 'genetics' is the study of the chemical makeup of biological structures, so not really relevant here). Darwinism, which is not actually linked to Darwin's research, is the idea that stronger life forms kill weaker life forms and take their place and resources. Fortunately, nobody is suggesting that with regard to migration (although ironically, to link to your earlier point, it did have a very significant bearing on Nazi thought and may well have been a contributory factor in the Holocaust).
Evolution is the slightly different idea that due to gradual changes life forms better suited to their surroundings (e.g. long necks on giraffes to reach leaves on taller trees) will emerge over time. This is based on Darwin's ideas and is also now thought to be less than perfectly accurate as a description of the development of species (genetic mutation is now the more fashionable theory). Again, nobody is suggesting that this is a factor in the migrant crisis.
So I'm not at all clear what you are suggesting. Economic migration is not in any way part of an evolutionary or biological process. True, it will allow the fittest, most energetic members of a given group (in this case, homo sapiens) the theoretical chance of a better life and ostensibly the chance to widen the gene pool of their host nation. But that seems to me to be very much a secondary problem to the more immediate one of what the hell do we do to stop (1) people killing themselves jumping on/off trucks and trains (2) causing travel chaos and bringing a large chunk of the north-western European economy to a halt and (3) trying to keep discourse reasonably civilised when we discuss it rather than feeling the need to invoke Godwin's Law.
Out of interest, I looked up the benefits entitlement for asylum seekers. Basically, it's £37/week cash plus accommodation for a single adult over 18. Plus free healthcare, prescriptions etc. If your asylum application is refused, you will get £35/week on a card (so can only be used for food and essentials), plus accommodation. https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get
Not much to the average person here but opulence for a lot of asylum seekers.
Andy Burham looks less and and less like a PM each day doesn't he..
Yes, I find myself baffled why I thought him the best of the bunch last time, and have concluded it must have been my wish not to be on the Miliband bandwagon, disliking Balls, and Abbot's inclusion being a disgrace (she got leant nominations like Corbyn, but in her case someone else withdrew to transfer their supporters to her, and on the explicit basis of her sex alone).
Kendall's not made a splash, so Cooper seems the safe choice, whcih she pitched for early on, presumably as she is playing it so bland, but she is experiened and more formidible than her husband without being as divisive, upfront at least.
Yes its amazing really that it looks like Mrs Balls will win. I was equally stumped by the initial enthusiasm for Burnham, who always looked inept to me. Still it will be interesting to see Mr Balls tagging along as consort. Will Private Eye run his diary I wonder?
"Who would bet against an English branch of the SNP committed to the break-up of the UK on a xenophobic manifesto with a few social democratic platitudes doing well in the current climate against a Corbyn-led Labour party?"
You mean the Conservative party?
I don't think the Conservatives are committed to the break-up of the UK They may bring it about through sheer ineptitude and complacency, but it's not going to be in their manifesto.
No, they would not be that explicit. But everything they have done and said since the referendum seems designed to bring it about. If they were genuinely interested in saving it there would now be plans in place for a constitutional convention.
I think it much more likely they are resisting and dissembling to try to avoid the problem and that may hasten that outcome rather than it being their plan. The former requires a lot less hiding of motives and much less discipline, which I don't think they have.
A constitutional convention was a good idea though
No, it's not a good idea. It only works if you have a reasonable counterparty.
In practice it will be a ratchet. At every turn the SNP will make the case - quite reasonably - for more independence. The convention will reach a reasonable settlement that is fair to all parts of the UK.
And then the wailing will start. "Oh the English, the English, the evil Tories are oppressing us".
It will achieve nothing except to move the baseline further towards devolution.
The SNP aren't ready to settle yet. For comparison (although obvious not equating the two), it made no sense to talk to Sinn Fein in the 1980s. But by the mid 1990s the PIRA was ready to surrender, so it made sense to open negotiations.
The SNP would be one party among many at a constitutional convention. And the results would be put to a referendum vote across the UK. What will not work are short term measures imposed by whichever party - elected by a minority - holds the levers of power at Westminster. That plays right into the SNP's hands.
Of course they would be.
And the SNP would advocate rejection in Scotland.
The time for a convention was before the referendum. (As I suggested in my first - and only thread - on here some years ago). Now the opportunity has passed.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
I personally know lorry drivers that have been threatened. Of course some of these people are criminals, they are aware that storming the tunnel is illegal. There is no reason whatsoever that these people should be encouraged to come here.
@richard tyndall- another one that thinks the migrants are criminals. Scaremongering and negativity works as a way of spreading fear and hatred. Tried, proved, tested and very effective.
@sean fear- doubtless many Africans would be better off in London. But isn't that the point of migration- where the fittest, the most able, the best migrate to improve their lives and in doing so raise the bar all round. Called genetics, Darwinism, evolution.
Can you tell me any other country in the world where evading passport controls is not a criminal activity?
Try getting INTO Africa without a valid passport and entry visa. Try, say Equatorial Guinea.
We'd like to visit you in Black Beach Prison. But you won't be allowed any.
To add, one of the other reasons why Eagle will do better than initially expected is that quite a few Corbyn backers will want to see a gender-balanced leadership team and will reasonably open to giving their vote to one of the female deputy candidates. Eagle has put herself in the best position to do well out of this.
Heavens above. The thought of the inept Corbyn and the most unpleasant woman in the Labour party - in a field of stiff competition including her twin - as a leaderhsip duo should be every Liberal Democrat's wet dream (for a given value of 'wet' - tears of laughter in this case).
And 'miserable little pipsqueak' Watson wouldn't be much better.
EDIT: he is at least of course a formidable campaigner and a tough political operator. He is also a gratuitously unpleasant and not particularly intelligent bully, but that might be a secondary issue.
Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground in the ME IS-controlled areas and beyond.
It's the only way to solve this and it won't happen.
Every time we intervene in the Middle East, it just makes things worse. We took out Saddam Hussein and got Al-Qaeda in Iraq. We took out Al-Qaeda in Iraq and got the Islamic State. Given the widespread anti-Western feeling in the region, we are best of largely staying out of it and then we can not be blamed for anything.
We should limit our intervention to bombing raids in response to terrorist attacks, so they learn they will be left alone if they do not attack us, but they will be devastated if they do. It can then be left to the people of the Middle East to revolt against their own governments, as that is the only way democracy ever sticks.
We should limit immigration here to those who have risked their lives helping us during our various military interventions, and to those at risked of being exterminated, such as Yazidis, Druze, Ismailis and Christians. That is the equivalent of helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Letting them all in would be the equivalent of accepting large swathes of Germans in during the War.
The migrants come to get our welfare state - which doesn't require proper checks and balances.
It was fine in 1945 but is horribly outdated and past its sell by date - and is doomed.
We now have the crazy situation where the state expects the citizen to sort out car and buildings insurance and if you fail to do so will be left to pick up the pieces - however the state doesn't trust you to set up your own health care arrangements.
This is mainly as Labour have turned the NHS into a religion - thankfully benefits and education have been taken off the sacrosanct list - but the NHS cannot continue giving out free healthcare to everyone forever - Corbyn as leader or not - so gird your loins for the 2020s NHSophiles..
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
There was a fascinating programme on the World Service this morning (I think at 3.30am, but it might have been 4am) called "Asylum".
Basically interviews with a bunch of people who had come through Libya on a boat (it was actually based around someone who ran a rescue ship in the Med) Almost all of the people interviewed were economic migrants and were very clear on that. Sold what they had and paid $3,000 a head to traffickers (one paid $22,000 for 10, so guess he negotiated a discount!).
Arrived in Italy - refused to be fingerprinted bbecause they knew if they were they'd have to stay there. Mass breakout from the refugee camp; police didn't chase them; and they all headed north. One ended up in Sweden, one in Switzerland and a bunch in Calais.
But all off them for economic reasons
Sssht. Don't mention such inconvenient truths, Charles.
You'll upset tyson who'll consider them "utterly appalling" views.
Spoke to Labour Party activists who tell me in their area, new members are overwhelmingly pro Corbin. He nearly won the CLP nomination in a middle England marginal constituency. The "old timers" are very concerned about the future.
the old timers I know- long standing party members, a pretty moderate and generally sensible bunch, are going for Corbyn too.
Mike- the Hillary Benn reference is just not relevant here. Corbyn's going to sail through
While of course not as insightful as @Cromwell nevertheless it had been my position for months/years prior to May that on the way to the polling booth the UK electorate would consider the risks of a Lab victory, understand that the LDs seriously misplayed their hand, run a million miles from UKIP...and vote Cons. Which it did.
In much the same way, by all that is holy, you have to believe that Lab members, as they go to mark their crosses (or however they do it - Ms Black is right on a few things), will go for a safety candidate. I have backed Yvette but whoever it is (and I don't necessarily expect them to be leader in 2020) needs to be a steady hand while Lab has its famous "internal debate".
I also still expect JC to step down prior to the vote.
===================================
Right on ...that old fool never intended to be leader , in fact the very thought of it will be enough to give him nightmares ..he is just the cadaverous corpse of the failed 1970s LP resurrected from the grave by the lightening bolt of messianic politics
He reminds me of the moment in the ''Life of Brian '' when the befuddled Brian screams to his deluded followers ''But Im not the Messiah , so will you all just P**S OFF ?''
Mr. Charles, some of us don't have even a single thread here to our name.
For some reason a piece detailing the difference between thermal degradation and abrasive rubber wear on the performance on a tyre compound is not deemed sufficiently 'political' enough.
Mr. Charles, some of us don't have even a single thread here to our name.
For some reason a piece detailing the difference between thermal degradation and abrasive rubber wear on the performance on a tyre compound is not deemed sufficiently 'political' enough.
Betting post: Paddy Power Ben Bradshaw to finish last in the Deputy Leader contest @ evens. Bradshaw is off the pace in this contest, comes from a region with relatively low numbers of Labour Party members and does not have a big natural constituency in the selectorate. He has 16 CLPs nominating him far fewer than the others apart from Angela Eagle on 19. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/which-clps-are-nominating-who-labour-leadership-contest
This doesn't mean Eagle is going to win - I'm confident victory will go to Tom Watson after a strong showing from Caroline Flint and Stella Creasy. But Eagle will do well enough in this selectorate to have clear water between her and Ben Bradshaw. I think there's an 80-85% chance that Bradshaw will finish last, so the evens represents good value. My advice with Paddy Power is try the phones and shops for larger stakes than the website.
Thanks Henry,
Into 5-6 but if you make it 80%, then that is still 26% wrong !
Ben Bradshaw is clearly very electable, holding Exeter with an increased majority was a tremendous achievement for Labour in your southern desert. So it seems bonkers to me that he is destined for last place, particularly over Angela Eagle who is not very impressive at all.
It's a real reflection on Labour that he will finish last.
< He reminds me of the moment in the ''Life of Brian '' when the befuddled Brian screams to his deluded followers ''But Im not the Messiah , so will you all just P**S OFF ?''
Actually a much ruder word involving the same organs.
To which John Cleese memorably responded, 'How dost thou wish us to f*** off O Lord?'
Mr. Eagles, I'm sure Burnham's full of intellectual self-confidence.
Although so far it's resembling the confidence of Crassus as he marched to Carrhae.
When Corbyn wins, will he pour molten gold in Burnham's mouth?
Corbyn talks with confidence because he has had 50 years of developing and confirming his prejudices in isolation without any intellectually rigorous attempt to refute them.
This is mainly as Labour have turned the NHS into a religion - thankfully benefits and education have been taken off the sacrosanct list - but the NHS cannot continue giving out free healthcare to everyone forever - Corbyn as leader or not - so gird your loins for the 2020s NHSophiles..
Its much worse than that. Friends of mine have adopted a local child and have taken her back to the UK. Because she is currently a foreign national, and they had to wait until they were in the UK to apply for citizenship, they had to pay 600 quid up front as an Immigrant Health Surcharge, the people that stow away on the lorries get instant free healthcare.
Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground in the ME IS-controlled areas and beyond.
It's the only way to solve this and it won't happen.
Every time we intervene in the Middle East, it just makes things worse. We took out Saddam Hussein and got Al-Qaeda in Iraq. We took out Al-Qaeda in Iraq and got the Islamic State. Given the widespread anti-Western feeling in the region, we are best of largely staying out of it and then we can not be blamed for anything.
We should limit our intervention to bombing raids in response to terrorist attacks, so they learn they will be left alone if they do not attack us, but they will be devastated if they do. It can then be left to the people of the Middle East to revolt against their own governments, as that is the only way democracy ever sticks.
We should limit immigration here to those who have risked their lives helping us during our various military interventions, and to those at risked of being exterminated, such as Yazidis, Druze, Ismailis and Christians. That is the equivalent of helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Letting them all in would be the equivalent of accepting large swathes of Germans in during the War.
OK so we're slightly off-topic here but perhaps I should have added "long term" before "boots on the ground".
Quite simply, in order to address the issues in the ME where there are IS problems (and elsewhere, AQ, Taliban, etc), we need first to destroy their hold, and then create an environment where civic society can be created and maintained.
We did neither of those things in Afghan or Iraq (or Syria or Libya or...where we didn't try).
We didn't have the political will a) to send hundreds of thousands of troops to win the war in the first place; or b) for those troops to remain in theatre (and I mean for years) to ensure that civic society and its various elements could take hold and establish itself.
To add, one of the other reasons why Eagle will do better than initially expected is that quite a few Corbyn backers will want to see a gender-balanced leadership team and will reasonably open to giving their vote to one of the female deputy candidates. Eagle has put herself in the best position to do well out of this.
Heavens above. The thought of the inept Corbyn and the most unpleasant woman in the Labour party - in a field of stiff competition including her twin - as a leaderhsip duo should be every Liberal Democrat's wet dream (for a given value of 'wet' - tears of laughter in this case).
And 'miserable little pipsqueak' Watson wouldn't be much better.
EDIT: he is at least of course a formidable campaigner and a tough political operator. He is also a gratuitously unpleasant and not particularly intelligent bully, but that might be a secondary issue.
I am coming round to the view that Corbyn/Eagles would be even more of a Dream Team than the Bob Ainsworth/Eagles Dream Team of yore....
Mr. Charles, some of us don't have even a single thread here to our name.
For some reason a piece detailing the difference between thermal degradation and abrasive rubber wear on the performance on a tyre compound is not deemed sufficiently 'political' enough.
If. like me, you had a detailed knowledge of Classical History, you could compare modern political events to antiquity.
In various threads I've put in references to Carrhae, the Trojan War, Caesar etc.
The migrants come to get our welfare state - which doesn't require proper checks and balances.
No they don't, they come to work and make a better life for themselves and their family.
You could abolish our welfare state tomorrow but it won't make much if any difference to migrant numbers. We are a wealthy developed nation and even a minimum wage job (even a cash in hand below minimum wage job) in the UK can provide a far better lifestyle than is possible in Eritrea, Senegal or Libya.
That's a good thing, we wouldn't want not to have a better lifestyle than them, but it means what we take for granted is a magnet for those that don't have it.
The migrants come to get our welfare state - which doesn't require proper checks and balances.
No they don't, they come to work and make a better life for themselves and their family.
You could abolish our welfare state tomorrow but it won't make much if any difference to migrant numbers. We are a wealthy developed nation and even a minimum wage job (even a cash in hand below minimum wage job) in the UK can provide a far better lifestyle than is possible in Eritrea, Senegal or Libya.
That's a good thing, we wouldn't want not to have a better lifestyle than them, but it means what we take for granted is a magnet for those that don't have it.
France offers all that except the benefits (in which I include free healthcare and education for their children)... and yet they are trying to leave France.
To add, one of the other reasons why Eagle will do better than initially expected is that quite a few Corbyn backers will want to see a gender-balanced leadership team and will reasonably open to giving their vote to one of the female deputy candidates. Eagle has put herself in the best position to do well out of this.
Heavens above. The thought of the inept Corbyn and the most unpleasant woman in the Labour party - in a field of stiff competition including her twin - as a leaderhsip duo should be every Liberal Democrat's wet dream (for a given value of 'wet' - tears of laughter in this case).
And 'miserable little pipsqueak' Watson wouldn't be much better.
EDIT: he is at least of course a formidable campaigner and a tough political operator. He is also a gratuitously unpleasant and not particularly intelligent bully, but that might be a secondary issue.
I am coming round to the view that Corbyn/Eagles would be even more of a Dream Team than the Bob Ainsworth/Eagles Dream Team of yore....
If people desire to immigrte between countries then there are processes and rules to be followed, I've known quite a few immigrants and would-be who have followed these rules or found they were not eligible and so either have or have not moved here.
None of them however are trying to break into the country on a back of a lorry from Calais. We should be fair and just to those who are trying to follow legal rules, and absolubtely not allow people to stay who have made no attempt to follow legal process.
One reason for the distaste for the actions of the lorry jumpers in Calais is this contempt for the rules, and of the rule of law. These are fairly consistently cited as core British values.
These are people whose experience of government and authority is at best one of incompetence and corruption and at worse one of tyranny and despotism. Starting with this, the road to Calais then involves bribery, smuggling, evasion of border controls then very often destruction of documents to make deportation impossible. It is hard to find a further point from the rule of law, which is why of all the potential migrants on the planet the ones at Calais should be bottom of the list. There needs to be an Australian type solution.
The migrants come to get our welfare state - which doesn't require proper checks and balances.
No they don't, they come to work and make a better life for themselves and their family.
You could abolish our welfare state tomorrow but it won't make much if any difference to migrant numbers. We are a wealthy developed nation and even a minimum wage job (even a cash in hand below minimum wage job) in the UK can provide a far better lifestyle than is possible in Eritrea, Senegal or Libya.
That's a good thing, we wouldn't want not to have a better lifestyle than them, but it means what we take for granted is a magnet for those that don't have it.
France offers all that except the benefits... and yet they are trying to leave France.
Socialist France lacks an economy as attractive as ours. While we're approaching full employment, their unemployment rate is over 10% while Italy has an unemployment rate over 12%. Jobs are easier to find in the UK.
France also lacks the English language which many migrants can grasp better than French.
Mr. Charles, some of us don't have even a single thread here to our name.
For some reason a piece detailing the difference between thermal degradation and abrasive rubber wear on the performance on a tyre compound is not deemed sufficiently 'political' enough.
Well, you just have to preface it with an analogy about how Labour are like one compound, the Tories another, and the LDs are the tarmac, and people will be halfway in to the piece before they realise they have been tricked.
The Blairites certainly don't seem to have moved onto Tony Mk II.
I think that's a fair point from Sunny.
The reason why Liz Kendall isn’t doing well isn’t because Miliband stitched up Labour in his image, it’s because the disciples of Blair are still flailing on what comes next. In the absence of solutions and ideas, we have a vacuum. It’s no use blaming Jeremy Corbyn either, he didn’t light the fire, it was already smoking when he got there.
Great article in the Telegraph on the migrant crisis. The attitudes towards the migrants that I have read here by most of the pbCOM fraternity is utterly appalling.
There is not a single person in the Calais camp who has not chosen to be there because they are not content with the plenty of safe nations they have passed through already. Why should we see these people as victims of anything but their own choices?
I feel most sympathy for the lorry drivers who are having their livelihoods ruined. Many of them are threatened on a regular basis as they pass through Calais, often with weaponry by some of these thugs.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Unlike the Jews, many of them are criminals.
Of course accusations of Jewish 'criminality' was a persistent facet of British anti-semitism. I went through a good many Glasgow Heralds from the WWII period while researching something, and there was a long running battle on the letters page regarding Jewish conscription dodging, black marketeering, ration book forging and various other socially undesirable activities.
Is Jeremy Corbyn performing like Sebastian Vettel at the Hungarian Grand Prix? After a lightning start, all the rivals behind him, seemingly with faster cars, are running into each other whilst Corbyn-Vettel races to a serene yet unlikely victory.
If people desire to immigrte between countries then there are processes and rules to be followed, I've known quite a few immigrants and would-be who have followed these rules or found they were not eligible and so either have or have not moved here.
None of them however are trying to break into the country on a back of a lorry from Calais. We should be fair and just to those who are trying to follow legal rules, and absolubtely not allow people to stay who have made no attempt to follow legal process.
One reason for the distaste for the actions of the lorry jumpers in Calais is this contempt for the rules, and of the rule of law. These are fairly consistently cited as core British values.
These are people whose experience of government and authority is at best one of incompetence and corruption and at worse one of tyranny and despotism. Starting with this, the road to Calais then involves bribery, smuggling, evasion of border controls then very often destruction of documents to make deportation impossible. It is hard to find a further point from the rule of law, which is why of all the potential migrants on the planet the ones at Calais should be bottom of the list. There needs to be an Australian type solution.
Steep Holm or a remote and uninhabited Scottish island?
To add, one of the other reasons why Eagle will do better than initially expected is that quite a few Corbyn backers will want to see a gender-balanced leadership team and will reasonably open to giving their vote to one of the female deputy candidates. Eagle has put herself in the best position to do well out of this.
Heavens above. The thought of the inept Corbyn and the most unpleasant woman in the Labour party - in a field of stiff competition including her twin - as a leaderhsip duo should be every Liberal Democrat's wet dream (for a given value of 'wet' - tears of laughter in this case).
And 'miserable little pipsqueak' Watson wouldn't be much better.
EDIT: he is at least of course a formidable campaigner and a tough political operator. He is also a gratuitously unpleasant and not particularly intelligent bully, but that might be a secondary issue.
I am coming round to the view that Corbyn/Eagles would be even more of a Dream Team than the Bob Ainsworth/Eagles Dream Team of yore....
Comments
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
1. We have low unemployment (albeit, so do the Germans, and a few other places).
2. The most likely language for an economic migrant to speak is... English.
3. We don't have ID cards, so it's much easier for employers to say "Sorry gov', he told me he was English, and he had an NI number and all..."
Most think, Yeah! and then as the cold water beckons - 80% of them have a self-preservation moment and don't run into the black waves. Some will do it because of peer pressure or for the lark. And some won't come back as a result.
Are Labour's entryists and easily led about to be adrenline junkies or step back when facing the ballot paper?
It seems to be the former right now, will Yvette get a big slab of sensible heads when they sober up? I've absolutely no idea.
Were Jezza to be elected Labour leader (he won't be), he would be asked his views on the Calais crisis. I'm sure his heart would say "let them all in". And there's a fair chance, he would act on that.
There's still time for that to happen, or have I missed it?
Also, humans haven't really evolved for thousands of years. Like the crocodile, we've been so successful there's no reason to change.
https://twitter.com/andyburnhammp/status/626666780468101120
I think that the right to work while seeking asylum was withdrawn by the Labour government 15 years ago, as by making an asylum claim (which often takes years) in effect anyone could grant themselves a UK work visa.
"Social security hand-outs should be regarded as "free money", the "so-called welfare State" should be used wherever possible and there's nothing wrong with squatting or being a "parasite".
These are views in a guide on how to scrounge off the State, "con" private firms and "use and abuse the system", published by the man set to become Prime Minister.
It is not a leaked copy of Gordon Brown's manifesto in his campaign to succeed Tony Blair, but a 200-page booklet produced as a socialist student leader in the Seventies, long before "stealth taxes" were invented.
However, cynics will say the seeds of the welfare State boom under Labour can be seen in the document edited by 22-year-old firebrand Brown when Rector of Edinburgh University.
Entitled Alternative Edinburgh, it provides a revealing insight into his attitudes to the State and the law in its suggestions of ways to live for free."
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
However, it puzzles me as to why the doors of the lorries seem to be unlocked?
That Andy Burnham.
What a hypocrite bloody hypocrite the Scouse Ed Miliband is.
These are economic migrants. Ask the French or listen to what they are saying to us.
Basically interviews with a bunch of people who had come through Libya on a boat (it was actually based around someone who ran a rescue ship in the Med) Almost all of the people interviewed were economic migrants and were very clear on that. Sold what they had and paid $3,000 a head to traffickers (one paid $22,000 for 10, so guess he negotiated a discount!).
Arrived in Italy - refused to be fingerprinted bbecause they knew if they were they'd have to stay there. Mass breakout from the refugee camp; police didn't chase them; and they all headed north. One ended up in Sweden, one in Switzerland and a bunch in Calais.
But all off them for economic reasons
As for 'demonising' them - that would apply if it was the government that was repeating these stories. I haven't heard them do that. Ordinary people in Nazi Germany did not, by and large, make up stories about the evil Jews - that was done by Streicher and Goebbels. These stories appear to be originating from lorry drivers. They may be invented, or exaggerated, but they do not seem to be a conspiracy.
If you cannot see the fairly important difference between those two situations, I do not think your hysterical views are worth paying much attention to.
Kendall's not made a splash, so Cooper seems the safe choice, whcih she pitched for early on, presumably as she is playing it so bland, but she is experiened and more formidible than her husband without being as divisive, upfront at least.
Actually, it is precisely because I am in Italy and have befriended a local group that I have taken such an interest in their plight. Most are economic migrants, from Eritrea (although they say Senegal because they think it is more acceptable)- they appear to have worked in Libya in the past, but have moved on because of the work situation. Almost all are young men, but seem to be married with young children.
To think similar young men to these are those at Calais, and are stigmatised as cockroaches and criminals is really quite heartbreaking.
Human evolution is based on migration. It is stronger for it. My heritage is Russian, Irish.
So are you helping them financially or in kind or just giving advice on where is the best place to settle in Europe - have they tried Russia - plenty of space there.
@financier
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
Although so far it's resembling the confidence of Crassus as he marched to Carrhae.
He's still arguably the best candidate though...which is a truly frightening indictment of the Labour party.
@financier
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
Most of Africa's population would be better off in London. It doesn't mean we open our doors to them.
Calling the migrants thugs and criminals. Demonising them with the stories of threatening lorry drivers with clubs- how much of that is true?
You know what the Nazis demonised the Jews as criminals and look where that got us.
We are spending millions building fences in Calais, militarising it etc... Does any of this sound familiar?
Unlike the Jews, many of them are criminals.
@Sean Fear
I thought you were taking the michael mouse the other night when you came out with that tosh, a kind of late night "Let's wind up a bleeding heart, liberal mood."
If you really think that I wouldn't like to be in your head- not the most pleasant of places.
We don't need to take any lectures from you on humanity or suffer your highly patronising and condescening slights on the rest of the PB community, just because you feel guilty about your wealth, privilege and laziness and want to use others to triangulate your own position and publicly emote your sense of superiority in your views to make yourself feel better.
I actually consider that the height of selfishness and rudeness. Not humanity.
PS. You've just fallen foul of Godwin's law, thereby making yourself look ridiculous too. Well done.
At least it looks like he's toned down the blusher.
I hate to be so lookist but it is a factor. As much as a beard and/or a donkey jacket might be. (I know it wasn't a donkey jacket.)
swarm
swɔːm
noun
1.
........
a large number of people or things.
"a swarm of journalists"
"
2.
move somewhere in large numbers.
"protesters were swarming into the building"
synonyms: flock, crowd, throng, stream, surge, flood, seethe, pack, crush
"reporters and photographers were swarming all over the place"
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1SVEE_enGB422GB422&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=swarm definition
Or perhaps:
Labour electors are swarming to Jeremy Corbyn's camp.....
@financier
Of course I help them financially. I think many of them would be better in London which has large Eritrean community, and where they can find work of some kind.
You're in the fortunate position of being a wealthy landlord, clearly you should house these unfortunates rent free.
You'll upset tyson who'll consider them "utterly appalling" views.
@sean fear- doubtless many Africans would be better off in London. But isn't that the point of migration- where the fittest, the most able, the best migrate to improve their lives and in doing so raise the bar all round. Called genetics, Darwinism, evolution.
@Sean Fear
I thought you were taking the michael mouse the other night when you came out with that tosh, a kind of late night "Let's wind up a bleeding heart, liberal mood."
If you really think that I wouldn't like to be in your head- not the most pleasant of places.
I've met, and had a drink with Sean Fear.
I can assure you he's an entirely sensible, rational - and most importantly - fair individual.
This may explain why Bradshaw and Eagle are both priced at evens to finish last. However Eagle has just received the deputy endorsement of Unison, was joint preferred deputy candidate for Unite and has run a better campaign. While Bradshaw has been mocked over his endorsement from Nancy Dell'Ollio http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Nancy-Dell-8217-Ollio-hosts-dancing-event-support/story-27512292-detail/story.html Angela Eagle has won plaudits for telling the 'political elite' within Labour to lay-off Jeremy Corbyn. http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/07/angela-eagle-political-elite-need-to-lay-off-jeremy-corbyn/ Eagle is also the preferred candidate of the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy network.
This doesn't mean Eagle is going to win - I'm confident victory will go to Tom Watson after a strong showing from Caroline Flint and Stella Creasy. But Eagle will do well enough in this selectorate to have clear water between her and Ben Bradshaw. I think there's an 80-85% chance that Bradshaw will finish last, so the evens represents good value. My advice with Paddy Power is try the phones and shops for larger stakes than the website.
That said, Lord Guan (Guan Yu), the Chinese patron saint of war and main character in the Three Kingdoms, was renowned for having eyebrows like a silkworm.
Hmm. Although now I write that I could be mistaking him for Zhang Fei.
Boots on the ground.
Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground in the ME IS-controlled areas and beyond.
It's the only way to solve this and it won't happen.
You are using some very poor logic here. Stigmatising people as cockroaches is disgusting dehumanisation and should be opposed. Accurately, describing people breaking into lorries and damaging property as criminals is entirely legitimate. Putting aside your egregious use of Godwin's law, is it true they described the people described the Jews as criminals. It is also true that people described the Mafia as criminals. This situation is more like the latter: we are describing people as criminals not based on their ethnicity, but on their criminal behaviour.
None of them however are trying to break into the country on a back of a lorry from Calais. We should be fair and just to those who are trying to follow legal rules, and absolubtely not allow people to stay who have made no attempt to follow legal process.
The berths at Ramsgate aren't big enough to take the ferries.
I don't think I have heard a single commentator ask any of the Labour leadership candidates a question about Calais or immigration. We know Jeremy Corbyn would just let them all in, what about the others?
Our best interests would be served - as we advocated - by saving them from the drowning and returning them to their point of embarkation
Evolution is the slightly different idea that due to gradual changes life forms better suited to their surroundings (e.g. long necks on giraffes to reach leaves on taller trees) will emerge over time. This is based on Darwin's ideas and is also now thought to be less than perfectly accurate as a description of the development of species (genetic mutation is now the more fashionable theory). Again, nobody is suggesting that this is a factor in the migrant crisis.
So I'm not at all clear what you are suggesting. Economic migration is not in any way part of an evolutionary or biological process. True, it will allow the fittest, most energetic members of a given group (in this case, homo sapiens) the theoretical chance of a better life and ostensibly the chance to widen the gene pool of their host nation. But that seems to me to be very much a secondary problem to the more immediate one of what the hell do we do to stop (1) people killing themselves jumping on/off trucks and trains (2) causing travel chaos and bringing a large chunk of the north-western European economy to a halt and (3) trying to keep discourse reasonably civilised when we discuss it rather than feeling the need to invoke Godwin's Law.
Still it will be interesting to see Mr Balls tagging along as consort. Will Private Eye run his diary I wonder?
And the SNP would advocate rejection in Scotland.
The time for a convention was before the referendum. (As I suggested in my first - and only thread - on here some years ago). Now the opportunity has passed.
Try getting INTO Africa without a valid passport and entry visa. Try, say Equatorial Guinea.
We'd like to visit you in Black Beach Prison. But you won't be allowed any.
And 'miserable little pipsqueak' Watson wouldn't be much better.
EDIT: he is at least of course a formidable campaigner and a tough political operator. He is also a gratuitously unpleasant and not particularly intelligent bully, but that might be a secondary issue.
We should limit our intervention to bombing raids in response to terrorist attacks, so they learn they will be left alone if they do not attack us, but they will be devastated if they do. It can then be left to the people of the Middle East to revolt against their own governments, as that is the only way democracy ever sticks.
We should limit immigration here to those who have risked their lives helping us during our various military interventions, and to those at risked of being exterminated, such as Yazidis, Druze, Ismailis and Christians. That is the equivalent of helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Letting them all in would be the equivalent of accepting large swathes of Germans in during the War.
It was fine in 1945 but is horribly outdated and past its sell by date - and is doomed.
We now have the crazy situation where the state expects the citizen to sort out car and buildings insurance and if you fail to do so will be left to pick up the pieces - however the state doesn't trust you to set up your own health care arrangements.
This is mainly as Labour have turned the NHS into a religion - thankfully benefits and education have been taken off the sacrosanct list - but the NHS cannot continue giving out free healthcare to everyone forever - Corbyn as leader or not - so gird your loins for the 2020s NHSophiles..
You're not doing your case any good.
I'm probably sympathetic to immigrants than most, for I am descended from recent immigrant stock.
One of the reason we've not had any major problems and accepted lots of immigration is we've had legal immigration.
A mass influx of these illegals helps no one. Not them, not us.
How's he going to handle the conflict...
Right on ...that old fool never intended to be leader , in fact the very thought of it will be enough to give him nightmares ..he is just the cadaverous corpse of the failed 1970s LP resurrected from the grave by the lightening bolt of messianic politics
He reminds me of the moment in the ''Life of Brian '' when the befuddled Brian screams to his deluded followers ''But Im not the Messiah , so will you all just P**S OFF ?''
For some reason a piece detailing the difference between thermal degradation and abrasive rubber wear on the performance on a tyre compound is not deemed sufficiently 'political' enough.
Into 5-6 but if you make it 80%, then that is still 26% wrong !
Ben Bradshaw is clearly very electable, holding Exeter with an increased majority was a tremendous achievement for Labour in your southern desert. So it seems bonkers to me that he is destined for last place, particularly over Angela Eagle who is not very impressive at all.
It's a real reflection on Labour that he will finish last.
Ta for the tip at any rate
To which John Cleese memorably responded, 'How dost thou wish us to f*** off O Lord?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MwJOnleriM
Quite simply, in order to address the issues in the ME where there are IS problems (and elsewhere, AQ, Taliban, etc), we need first to destroy their hold, and then create an environment where civic society can be created and maintained.
We did neither of those things in Afghan or Iraq (or Syria or Libya or...where we didn't try).
We didn't have the political will a) to send hundreds of thousands of troops to win the war in the first place; or b) for those troops to remain in theatre (and I mean for years) to ensure that civic society and its various elements could take hold and establish itself.
In various threads I've put in references to Carrhae, the Trojan War, Caesar etc.
You could abolish our welfare state tomorrow but it won't make much if any difference to migrant numbers. We are a wealthy developed nation and even a minimum wage job (even a cash in hand below minimum wage job) in the UK can provide a far better lifestyle than is possible in Eritrea, Senegal or Libya.
That's a good thing, we wouldn't want not to have a better lifestyle than them, but it means what we take for granted is a magnet for those that don't have it.
I seem to recall you tittering at Basil II's excellence, although I'm glad in that area at least I've managed to enlighten you.
Edited extra bit: although, of course, he's far too modern to count as classical.
These are people whose experience of government and authority is at best one of incompetence and corruption and at worse one of tyranny and despotism. Starting with this, the road to Calais then involves bribery, smuggling, evasion of border controls then very often destruction of documents to make deportation impossible. It is hard to find a further point from the rule of law, which is why of all the potential migrants on the planet the ones at Calais should be bottom of the list. There needs to be an Australian type solution.
France also lacks the English language which many migrants can grasp better than French.
I think that's a fair point from Sunny.
Saw a 'Home office immigration' van whilst driving through Darnal, Sheffield near to where the huge Labour poster was during the GE a few weeks back.
Warmed the cockles of the heart.
Is Jeremy Corbyn performing like Sebastian Vettel at the Hungarian Grand Prix? After a lightning start, all the rivals behind him, seemingly with faster cars, are running into each other whilst Corbyn-Vettel races to a serene yet unlikely victory.
http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01423/bob_13_280x390_1423275a.jpg