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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest from the Betfair exchange on the LAB leadership

SystemSystem Posts: 11,685
edited July 2015 in General

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  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    FIrst
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Second.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Watching The Proms, pianist is playing a grand, but the lid is removed. Sounds OK, but not sure that I've seen it done very often.

    The good thing is that it will fox the regulars in the arena, who are usually tempted to shout 'heave', but this time they may find no one returns the call 'ho'.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625
    Grrr - I just post our CLP results and we get a new thread!

    Anyway, Burnham and Watson nominated.

    I was most surprised at Stella's poor showing.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2015
    "Yvette Cooper: ‘Andy’s campaign seems to want Liz and me to leave it to the boys’

    As Jeremy Corbyn’s surge has plunged Labour into civil war, his leadership rival has trodden a cautious path. Now, angered by a sexist undertone to the campaign, she’s ready to make a stand."

    Burnham’s ~14% lead over Ms Cooper may account for this little bit of girl on boy action.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/24/yvette-cooper-interview-labour-leadership-protest
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    I am signing up as an affiliate to vote Corbyn as well.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    MP_SE said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    I am signing up as an affiliate to vote Corbyn as well.

    I think it's going to be easier to make a list of PBers who are NOT voting in the Labour election.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited July 2015
    MP_SE said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    I am signing up as an affiliate to vote Corbyn as well.
    Yes, I have signed up too, though I will not be voting for Corbyn you may be unsurprised to here. I don't think Corbyn ever knew how popular he would become with wealthy Thatcherites when he first announced his candidacy!

    Fraser Nelson has said one rich Tory donor has signed up as a Labour supporter 9 times under different names to maximise his Corbyn vote!!
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980

    Grrr - I just post our CLP results and we get a new thread!

    Anyway, Burnham and Watson nominated.

    I was most surprised at Stella's poor showing.

    I posted a response on the other thread, which was basically to say while I can understand the appeal of Corbyn, I just don't get why people would vote for Watson, especially given - as you go close to suggesting - Creasy is a manifestly superior choice.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    MP_SE said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    I am signing up as an affiliate to vote Corbyn as well.

    I think it's going to be easier to make a list of PBers who are NOT voting in the Labour election.

    I'm not!
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Last night I noticed an infuriated tweet re Greens signing up for Corbyn.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Creasy is horrendous.

    A stupefyingly bland, middle class parachutist dropped into a relatively rough London area like Walthamstow.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2015
    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Thanks :) I'll reply on this thread.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    It's possibly the noblest political act of my life.

    More so than buying your racist mug?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: Labour leadership race: how the internet is backing #Corbyn4leader http://t.co/Yup8mUg0nf
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Charles said:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    I wouldn't, no. Grammar schools worked well for those people who made the cut, but the secondary moderns were not sufficient for those who didn't.

    Personally I prefer academic-based setting within schools, plus specialist schools for people with particular aptitudes. We also need to get away from the false canard that an academic and/or university education is most appropriate for 50%+ of the education. There is nothing shameful about vocational or skills-based education to enable people to maximise their potential based on their innate abilities
    Completely agreed - especially in regard to specialist schools. At what point do you think that pupils should be streamlined into specialist schools, out of interest (I'm thinking aged 14)?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    such is my modesty.

    The enormity of your modesty can not be measured with current technology...
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    I wouldn't, no. Grammar schools worked well for those people who made the cut, but the secondary moderns were not sufficient for those who didn't.

    Personally I prefer academic-based setting within schools, plus specialist schools for people with particular aptitudes. We also need to get away from the false canard that an academic and/or university education is most appropriate for 50%+ of the education. There is nothing shameful about vocational or skills-based education to enable people to maximise their potential based on their innate abilities
    Completely agreed - especially in regard to specialist schools. At what point do you think that pupils should be streamlined into specialist schools, out of interest (I'm thinking aged 14)?
    Don't have a particular view, tbh. Probably post GCSE equivalent (i.e. basic competence) exams, but whether that is 14, 15, or 16 don't know.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    SeanT said:

    I too have paid my £3 to put my shoulder to the Corbyn wheel. Of course I can't abide his politics - but I believe he will excite voters, enliven debate, return the Left to its socialist roots, and heal the wounds in the Union by enticing radical leftwing Scots back to Labour.

    It's possibly the noblest political act of my life.

    I can't tell if this is sarcasm...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Ivan Massow's unintentionally hilarious video inviting a Londoner from every Borough to let him spend a night in their 'manor' to help him in his Mayoral campaign
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k17JusTn8Bs
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    My Facebook is often old medical school mates and various medical colleagues over the years are often apolitical, but the political ones are all for Corbyn. The only exception is a university academic so depressed by the whole lot she is planning not to vote.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    FPT:


    The reasons for Corbyn's appeal have been discussed fully. It is comprehensible, even though his backers are deluded. What I can't understand for the life of me is the appeal of Tom Watson - he's not even particularly left wing?

    I'm surprised he turned out to be this popular with the grassroots too - I think it's almost completely down to "taking on Murdoch".

    I've always found him very run-of-the-mill, though. I think I'll vote for Stella in the deputy contest - although she's a bit too right-wing, she does atleast seem to have some interesting thoughts in her head, unlike Kendall with her endless robotic chanting of Tory platitudes.
  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Allan Rogers just rang me to ask me about my Dad.

    He worked with Yvette Cooper when she was young and he spoke very highly of her. Said she's clever and sensible.

    Allan is the President of our rugby club.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Danny565 said:

    I'm surprised he turned out to be this popular with the grassroots too - I think it's almost completely down to "taking on Murdoch".

    Was he not critical in the knifing of Blair? That would make him a hero to some
  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It's possibly the noblest political act of my life.

    More so than buying your racist mug?
    Thankyou for reminding me. I sometimes forget my own history of altruism and charity, such is my modesty.
    It's up there with the number of zeroes in a googolplex and the depth of Gordon Brown's hubris ☺

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 2m2 minutes ago
    Jeremy Corbyn has 99 CLP nominations, but Redditch ain't one


    (NB: some rudimentary knowledge of Jay-Z is required to understand this tweet.)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    HYUFD said:

    I have just had a facebook message from a Winchester educated financial adviser from a wealthy northern family living in Kensington and active Kensington and Chelsea Tory who has just joined the Labour Party purely to vote for Corbyn!! Well this leadership election is certainly going to produce some interesting branch meetings!

    My Facebook is often old medical school mates and various medical colleagues over the years are often apolitical, but the political ones are all for Corbyn. The only exception is a university academic so depressed by the whole lot she is planning not to vote.
    Yes surgeons in my experience are often either Tories or died in the wool reds
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited July 2015
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    The LD one was just 2 candidates in a party with just 8 MP's, also we knew the winner of that contest since 2012.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    The LD one was just 2 candidates in a party with just 8MP's, also we knew the winner of that contest since 2012.
    It was sterile. Whatever Labour is, it isn't that.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    In all probability yes, as the numbers of pupils at Oxbridge from the state sector come disproportionally from grammars
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Ivan Massow's unintentionally hilarious video inviting a Londoner from every Borough to let him spend a night in their 'manor' to help him in his Mayoral campaign
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k17JusTn8Bs

    Ivan Massow, this generation's Max Headroom:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYdpOjletnc
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    The LD one was just 2 candidates in a party with just 8MP's, also we knew the winner of that contest since 2012.
    It was sterile. Whatever Labour is, it isn't that.
    I was at the LD hustings. It was quite a vigorous debate, and Lamb came surprisingly close considering the starting position.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Charles, I went to an armed forces comprehensive school for a while. There were 20 sets in my year! However, House activities and non-academic activities were setted across academic abilities (or in the case of sports, all together), and each academic subject was setted differently. Thus there was a lot of interaction between pupils across all ranges of academic ability. It worked well for me (I can understand if it worked less well for others) but administratively it must have been a nightmare.
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    edited July 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    As a grammar student myself, I believe this to be true. Our school has minimal class disruption compared to other Liverpool schools and it is one of the few Liverpool schools without a police officer assigned to it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Setting is no longer the norm?
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2015
    I was just looking at CIF on an article reporting that Kuenssberg is the BBC's new political editor.

    Describing these ''''''''people'''''''' as batshit insane is actually being kind. These people must come from kind of Marxist perspective, holy moly. They need professional help, a counselor to help them see reality.

    They actually think Laura K is a Tory.

    Really.

    Everything is a Tory conspiracy in their world.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    Not machine politics? - so far the campaign has been entirely Labour machine politics.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Stephen Kinnock was brave today in the context of the current Labour climate by advocating abolishing inheritance tax and considering reducing the top rate of income tax to 35%. I assume he's already been branded as an "evil Tory" on various websites.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    I was just looking at CIF on an article reporting that Kuenssberg is the BBC's new political editor.

    Describing these ''''''''people'''''''' as batshit insane is actually being kind. These people must come from kind of Marxist perspective, holy moly. They need professional help, a counselor to help them see reality.

    They actually think Laura K is a Tory.

    Really.

    Everything is a Tory conspiracy in their world.

    Although I think Kuenssberg has always been neutral in her reporting, I'm sure I remember hearing she was in line to be the Tory communications director.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Buckinghamshire has selection and well above average overall GCSE results so there is no real evidence selection harms the average pupil. We have universities too which all admit students with at least slightly above average intelligence allowed to enter them, does that create an 'other'? Setting is all well and good but it does not create the ethos of a school. As I said I would not impose selection but the choice should at least be there if sufficient demand, even if only at 15 or 16
  • Options
    Danny565 said:

    I was just looking at CIF on an article reporting that Kuenssberg is the BBC's new political editor.

    Describing these ''''''''people'''''''' as batshit insane is actually being kind. These people must come from kind of Marxist perspective, holy moly. They need professional help, a counselor to help them see reality.

    They actually think Laura K is a Tory.

    Really.

    Everything is a Tory conspiracy in their world.

    Although I think Kuenssberg has always been neutral in her reporting, I'm sure I remember hearing she was in line to be the Tory communications director.
    Sounds doubtful. She would not have got onto Newsnight.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ivan Massow's unintentionally hilarious video inviting a Londoner from every Borough to let him spend a night in their 'manor' to help him in his Mayoral campaign
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k17JusTn8Bs

    Ivan Massow, this generation's Max Headroom:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYdpOjletnc
    Yes, can see the resemblance
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    I was just looking at CIF on an article reporting that Kuenssberg is the BBC's new political editor.

    Describing these ''''''''people'''''''' as batshit insane is actually being kind. These people must come from kind of Marxist perspective, holy moly. They need professional help, a counselor to help them see reality.

    They actually think Laura K is a Tory.

    Really.

    Everything is a Tory conspiracy in their world.

    Although I think Kuenssberg has always been neutral in her reporting, I'm sure I remember hearing she was in line to be the Tory communications director.
    Sounds doubtful. She would not have got onto Newsnight.
    LOL at this circular logic.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    The LD one was just 2 candidates in a party with just 8MP's, also we knew the winner of that contest since 2012.
    It was sterile. Whatever Labour is, it isn't that.
    I was at the LD hustings. It was quite a vigorous debate, and Lamb came surprisingly close considering the starting position.
    Not noticed any real discussion in the LDs about their catastrophic performance. They seem to have settled on the idea that it was 'unfair' and they 'did the right thing'.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndyJS said:

    Stephen Kinnock was brave today in the context of the current Labour climate by advocating abolishing inheritance tax and considering reducing the top rate of income tax to 35%. I assume he's already been branded as an "evil Tory" on various websites.

    What could possibly lead the son of millionaire parents to be opposed to high income taxes and inheritance tax? Perhaps he has taken soundings in the Welsh valleys on the subject. Or perhaps not.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Cooper is rattled.

    http://t.co/hXlCO6Bq2a
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Buckinghamshire has selection and well above average overall GCSE results so there is no real evidence selection harms the average pupil. We have universities too which all admit students with at least slightly above average intelligence allowed to enter them, does that create an 'other'? Setting is all well and good but it does not create the ethos of a school. As I said I would not impose selection but the choice should at least be there if sufficient demand, even if only at 15 or 16
    Setting may not be THE ethos of a school, but it is almost a certainly a very important component of it. Competition to move up sets, or to be in the top set reflects an ethos that academic performance and excellence are desirable traits.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    In all probability yes, as the numbers of pupils at Oxbridge from the state sector come disproportionally from grammars
    But even that doesn't necessarily tell you anything: maybe more state school pupils go to Oxbridge because there is less use of private education.

    You need to look at the grades achieved by people at every point on the parental income curve, and see if people do better. And the data from the FT article seems to suggest that people, even poor bright kids, do worse in grammar school counties.

    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    Stephen Kinnock was brave today in the context of the current Labour climate by advocating abolishing inheritance tax and considering reducing the top rate of income tax to 35%. I assume he's already been branded as an "evil Tory" on various websites.

    Well brave or not, it was completely stupid, worst possible timing.
    Didn't anyone bother to tell him that there is a leadership race in which Corbyn is way ahead and Labour activists have gone nuclear on their leadership over perceived rightwingness?

    You don't tell things like those unless you want to fan the flames.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:


    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.

    You can prove anything with facts.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2015
    Jonathan said:

    It was sterile. Whatever Labour is, it isn't that.

    True, it's like looking at a Petri dish where all manner of pathogens are multiplying faster than anyone can keep up with.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    I was just looking at CIF on an article reporting that Kuenssberg is the BBC's new political editor.

    Describing these ''''''''people'''''''' as batshit insane is actually being kind. These people must come from kind of Marxist perspective, holy moly. They need professional help, a counselor to help them see reality.

    They actually think Laura K is a Tory.

    Really.

    Everything is a Tory conspiracy in their world.

    This is the best ever CIF article:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/11/milifan-prime-minister-ed-miliband
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Clegg offering his services as an after dinner speaker at a bargain £35,000 per speech
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andy-mcsmiths-diary-dinner-goes-down-better-with-a35000-nick-clegg-speech-10411733.html
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    @Danny565 I googled her name + 'Conservative' and no stories relating that came up, and I can't recall hearing it. I did hear that Miliband wanted Nick Robinson to work within his team, though.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Labour leadership campaign, despite being crazy is definitely more interesting than the Lib Dem election. The nominations coming in from all the CLPs (some little, some big) is actually rather refreshing. Not machine politics.

    The LD one was just 2 candidates in a party with just 8MP's, also we knew the winner of that contest since 2012.
    It was sterile. Whatever Labour is, it isn't that.
    I was at the LD hustings. It was quite a vigorous debate, and Lamb came surprisingly close considering the starting position.
    Not noticed any real discussion in the LDs about their catastrophic performance. They seem to have settled on the idea that it was 'unfair' and they 'did the right thing'.
    It was quite widely discussed at the hustings, and I heard neither of those comments.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:
    At this rate he will have competition from Stephen Kinnock.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Stephen Kinnock was brave today in the context of the current Labour climate by advocating abolishing inheritance tax and considering reducing the top rate of income tax to 35%. I assume he's already been branded as an "evil Tory" on various websites.

    Well brave or not, it was completely stupid, worst possible timing.
    Didn't anyone bother to tell him that there is a leadership race in which Corbyn is way ahead and Labour activists have gone nuclear on their leadership over perceived rightwingness?

    You don't tell things like those unless you want to fan the flames.
    He did say he would charge income tax on inheritance at a lower rate instead and promised to invest more in productivity and fund a £10 living wage with a levy on large firms to pay for it in smaller ones
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Buckinghamshire has selection and well above average overall GCSE results so there is no real evidence selection harms the average pupil. We have universities too which all admit students with at least slightly above average intelligence allowed to enter them, does that create an 'other'? Setting is all well and good but it does not create the ethos of a school. As I said I would not impose selection but the choice should at least be there if sufficient demand, even if only at 15 or 16
    Setting may not be THE ethos of a school, but it is almost a certainly a very important component of it. Competition to move up sets, or to be in the top set reflects an ethos that academic performance and excellence are desirable traits.
    I am not anti setting but allowing schools to select should not preclude some grammar schools either
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:


    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.

    You can prove anything with facts.
    One of my favourite Simpson's quotes ever :-)
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,869
    I think Kendall will withdraw this week.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    @HYUFD

    Yougov was the first pollster to catch the Trump wave.
    Now they have him at new record highs, after the McCain comments he rose from 15 to 28%:

    https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/07/24/trumps-support-remains-high-mccain-controversy/

    Trump 28%
    Bush 14%
    Walker 13%
    Carson 7%
    Paul 5%
    Cruz 4%
    Rubio 4%
    Huckabee 3%
    Christie 3%
    Fiorina 3%
    Perry 2%
    Graham 2%
    Kasich 2%
    Santorum 1%
    Jindal 1%


    Trump's stakes are rising:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyONt_ZH_aw

    Goodnight.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    In all probability yes, as the numbers of pupils at Oxbridge from the state sector come disproportionally from grammars
    But even that doesn't necessarily tell you anything: maybe more state school pupils go to Oxbridge because there is less use of private education.

    You need to look at the grades achieved by people at every point on the parental income curve, and see if people do better. And the data from the FT article seems to suggest that people, even poor bright kids, do worse in grammar school counties.

    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.
    But that data is extremely dubious when selective areas like Buckinghamshire and Trafford all have above average GCSE results
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312
    edited July 2015

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

    - M. H. Thatcher, speech to the Conservative Party Conference (14 October, 1977)
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    I think Kendall will withdraw this week.

    Do you have inside info?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.
    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university
    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters
    Buckinghamshire has selection and well above average overall GCSE results so there is no real evidence selection harms the average pupil. We have universities too which all admit students with at least slightly above average intelligence allowed to enter them, does that create an 'other'? Setting is all well and good but it does not create the ethos of a school. As I said I would not impose selection but the choice should at least be there if sufficient demand, even if only at 15 or 16
    Setting may not be THE ethos of a school, but it is almost a certainly a very important component of it. Competition to move up sets, or to be in the top set reflects an ethos that academic performance and excellence are desirable traits.
    I am not anti setting but allowing schools to select should not preclude some grammar schools either
    If my daughter passes the exam, she's going to be going to Henrietta Barnett, and I think any parent would feel the same...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    @Danny565 I googled her name + 'Conservative' and no stories relating that came up, and I can't recall hearing it. I did hear that Miliband wanted Nick Robinson to work within his team, though.
    They go to high schools or religious schools or academies or free schools many of which also get good results. Selection also does not have to be just at 11, Finland selects at 16, most grammars have sixth form entries too
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    In all probability yes, as the numbers of pupils at Oxbridge from the state sector come disproportionally from grammars
    But even that doesn't necessarily tell you anything: maybe more state school pupils go to Oxbridge because there is less use of private education.

    You need to look at the grades achieved by people at every point on the parental income curve, and see if people do better. And the data from the FT article seems to suggest that people, even poor bright kids, do worse in grammar school counties.

    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.
    But that data is extremely dubious when selective areas like Buckinghamshire and Trafford all have above average GCSE results
    I think the way the FT presents the data is pretty fair. I'm not sure I could do a better job.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:



    Well brave or not, it was completely stupid, worst possible timing.
    Didn't anyone bother to tell him that there is a leadership race in which Corbyn is way ahead and Labour activists have gone nuclear on their leadership over perceived rightwingness?

    Corbyn hasn't won yet and Labour activists haven't gone nuclear over anything - there may well be a crisis coming but at least let it happen before talking about it.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

    - M. H. Thatcher, speech to the Conservative Party Conference (14 October, 1977)
    Didn't she get rid of them though?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    @Speedy

    I was convinced that Hillary would win the Democratic nomination, and would then flame out badly against almost any Republican candidate.

    But I suspect that Hillary would destroy Trump.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited July 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    If Creasy is horrendous, god knows what Watson is!

    Replied FPT to your question on grammar schools
    Can I just say that I also agree with you regarding grammar schools.

    I used to have a different view, but then I read this article: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.
    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open
    Of course they do.

    If I select the top 1% of pupils, I'm going to get good results.

    The question is: did that top 1% do better in the grammar schools than they would have done otherwise?
    In all probability yes, as the numbers of pupils at Oxbridge from the state sector come disproportionally from grammars
    But even that doesn't necessarily tell you anything: maybe more state school pupils go to Oxbridge because there is less use of private education.

    You need to look at the grades achieved by people at every point on the parental income curve, and see if people do better. And the data from the FT article seems to suggest that people, even poor bright kids, do worse in grammar school counties.

    And I'll take data over intuition every day of the week.
    But that data is extremely dubious when selective areas like Buckinghamshire and Trafford all have above average GCSE results
    I think the way the FT presents the data is pretty fair. I'm not sure I could do a better job.
    Some of the worst areas for GCSE results eg Knowsley, Nottingham etc are comprehensive, some of the best are selective, data can be presented on the other side just as well
  • Options
    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    ..

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    Don't we all write our comments like that? :-) Not that last one, obviously.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited July 2015
    HYUFD said:



    I am not anti setting but allowing schools to select should not preclude some grammar schools either

    I wasn't advocating anything, just pointing out that whatever decisions are taken on selection, setting, non-selection, non-setting etc... will affect the ethos of a school.

    Personally, as someone who went through both a comprehensive and a grammar school education, I am a fan of comprehensives with setting for academic subjects and mixing for the rest. I do not see any solution to the postal code problem, except allowing a certain number of schools to operate on a selection not catchment area basis alongside the main system using the catchment system.

    In the US, they call them magnet schools, and they tend to attract the truly talented and gifted, many of whom would have a hard time performing to their potential in a normal school. They recruit from the 'hoods as well as the 'burbs.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    'It's very rare a single piece changes my mind on something, but this did.

    Yet the only state schools which consistently challenge the top private schools in the league tables are grammar schools. I would not impose selection wholesale but I don't see why parents cannot open new grammars just as they can ballot to close them under present rules or open a free school. I would not just have selection at 11, but 6th form entry too where grammars are open

    Because I'm not sure it is culturally healthy to segregate the perceived "intelligent" from the rest of their peers.

    Well Eton does, Winchester does, St Paul's does, all having competitive entrance exams, I don't see why it is so wrong in the state sector. Though as I said I would leave most selection until 16 and preparation for university

    As always, it is good for a minority, but not good for those left behind. And I don't think it is helpful having the intelligent as an "other" group in society.

    That's why I prefer setting: it allows lessons to be set at the appropriate level of academic rigour for individuals, while preserving a cohesive cohort in other matters

    Buckinghamshire has selection and well above average overall GCSE results so there is no real evidence selection harms the average pupil. We have universities too which all admit students with at least slightly above average intelligence allowed to enter them, does that create an 'other'? Setting is all well and good but it does not create the ethos of a school. As I said I would not impose selection but the choice should at least be there if sufficient demand, even if only at 15 or 16

    Setting may not be THE ethos of a school, but it is almost a certainly a very important component of it. Competition to move up sets, or to be in the top set reflects an ethos that academic performance and excellence are desirable traits.

    I am not anti setting but allowing schools to select should not preclude some grammar schools either

    If my daughter passes the exam, she's going to be going to Henrietta Barnett, and I think any parent would feel the same...'

    Well fair enough, life is competitive
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

    - M. H. Thatcher, speech to the Conservative Party Conference (14 October, 1977)
    Didn't she get rid of them though?
    Ilford still has a Grammar - I went there 1987-1994.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited July 2015

    AndyJS said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS you and @Charles appear to attribute the decline in social mobility/inequality to the removal of grammar schools. Would you both reintroduce them, and if you did what would happen to the kids who did not pass their 11+.

    What do you think should happen to kids who go to a poor school because their parents can't afford to move to a desirable catchment area?

    You'd think those on the left would rather have selection on merit rather than selection based on ability to afford a house in a middle-class catchment area.

    By the way, I think all the research saying grammar schools didn't improve social mobility are biased. They're written by people who'd already decided what their conclusions were going to be beforehand, even if only subconsciously.
    I don't support the current system, but I'd like to ask again: what do you think should happen to kids who don't pass their 11+?

    People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

    - M. H. Thatcher, speech to the Conservative Party Conference (14 October, 1977)
    Benn went to Westminster, Crosland to Highgate, Williams to St Paul's, though Benn at least practised what he preached and sent his children to comprehensives
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    @Speedy

    I was convinced that Hillary would win the Democratic nomination, and would then flame out badly against almost any Republican candidate.

    But I suspect that Hillary would destroy Trump.

    Hillary would have destroyed every possible GOP candidate with the possible exception of Paul.

    Anyway, Trump is using the Romney path to the nomination, in a badly splintered party you only need 20-25% of the vote to win, and that is Trump's strategy. He's carving a solid block of fanatical supporters that is large enough to win him all early states and make him the inevitable nominee.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:
    At this rate he will have competition from Stephen Kinnock.
    Well if he ever gets to lead his party and enter No 10 he could even charge the 6 figures Blair does
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    Speedy said:

    @HYUFD

    Yougov was the first pollster to catch the Trump wave.
    Now they have him at new record highs, after the McCain comments he rose from 15 to 28%:

    https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/07/24/trumps-support-remains-high-mccain-controversy/

    Trump 28%
    Bush 14%
    Walker 13%
    Carson 7%
    Paul 5%
    Cruz 4%
    Rubio 4%
    Huckabee 3%
    Christie 3%
    Fiorina 3%
    Perry 2%
    Graham 2%
    Kasich 2%
    Santorum 1%
    Jindal 1%


    Trump's stakes are rising:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyONt_ZH_aw

    Goodnight.

    He is riding high at the moment but still a long way to go
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    HYUFD said:

    Some of the worst areas for GCSE results eg Knowsley, Nottingham etc are comprehensive, some of the best are selective, data can be presented on the other side just as well

    But the way the FT presents the data is pretty clear: someone with a parental income in the 1st percentile gets a score of x in "Selectivia" and y and "The Rest".

    In other words, they strip out the effect of having wealthy successful parents (and all that comes with that). This is particularly important because in wealthy areas with no grammar schools, a lot more kids go to private schools.

    The major selling point of grammar schools is that they help poor kids achieve. I don't think the data backs that up.

    My daughter is 7. She's top of her class in a nice (if slightly odd) private school. When she's 10, she'll sit the 11+ for Henrietta Barnett. Hopefully she'll get in. But she will have a massive advantage over the average 10 year old sitting that test. She's in a class of 10 or 11 kids, with a huge amount of personal support. As she gets closer to 11 (and Common Entrance or the Henrietta Barnett exam) she'll have practice test after practice test all administered by the school. If my daughter was at the local state school, she wouldn't have that.

    I suspect, and I could be wrong, that very few poor kids make it into Henrietta Barnett. Cynically, all that school does is reduce the school fee bills of middle class parents. That's not social mobility, that's a tax break.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    @Speedy

    I was convinced that Hillary would win the Democratic nomination, and would then flame out badly against almost any Republican candidate.

    But I suspect that Hillary would destroy Trump.

    Anyone would destroy Trump. Indeed, for the sake of the US and the world, they would have to. I'd even back Bernie Sanders over Trump. An egomaniac with his finger on the button ...

    I think with the latest revelations that federal inspectors general want a criminal probe into Hillary's server is increasing the probability that she will not survive to the end of the nomination process though, and the chances that a Biden or other mainstream Dem candidate will enter the race to challenge her. Her trustworthiness numbers are already horrid, and if they get significantly worse, the bigwigs in the party must surely start the recruitment process for a new frontrunner.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNewsnight: "At last Labour could be moving in the right direction" with Jeremy Corbyn, says comedian @therhonacameron
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNewsnight: "At last Labour could be moving in the right direction" with Jeremy Corbyn, says comedian @therhonacameron

    Was she joking or being serious?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Speedy

    I was convinced that Hillary would win the Democratic nomination, and would then flame out badly against almost any Republican candidate.

    But I suspect that Hillary would destroy Trump.

    Hillary would have destroyed every possible GOP candidate with the possible exception of Paul.

    Anyway, Trump is using the Romney path to the nomination, in a badly splintered party you only need 20-25% of the vote to win, and that is Trump's strategy. He's carving a solid block of fanatical supporters that is large enough to win him all early states and make him the inevitable nominee.
    Wrong on both counts. But hope you enjoy this:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/cartoons/cartoons_of_the_week/
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect, and I could be wrong, that very few poor kids make it into Henrietta Barnett. Cynically, all that school does is reduce the school fee bills of middle class parents. That's not social mobility, that's a tax break.

    But isn't that just the effect of rationing? If grammar schools (or indeed, good state schools generally) are very rare, then they'll be disproportionately grabbed by those able to (a) afford the inflated house prices in their catchment areas and (b) work the system to get their kids into them.

    The whole debate is sterile IMO. What we need is GOOD schools, and lots of them. The tragedy of the destruction of the grammar schools was that at least we had some good schools in the state sector, and they were systematically destroyed for reasons of ideological vengeance.

    Of course we can't go back to 1950 and just recreate them as though nothing had changed in the meantime. We need to start again.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:



    I am not anti setting but allowing schools to select should not preclude some grammar schools either

    I wasn't advocating anything, just pointing out that whatever decisions are taken on selection, setting, non-selection, non-setting etc... will affect the ethos of a school.

    Personally, as someone who went through both a comprehensive and a grammar school education, I am a fan of comprehensives with setting for academic subjects and mixing for the rest. I do not see any solution to the postal code problem, except allowing a certain number of schools to operate on a selection not catchment area basis alongside the main system using the catchment system.

    In the US, they call them magnet schools, and they tend to attract the truly talented and gifted, many of whom would have a hard time performing to their potential in a normal school. They recruit from the 'hoods as well as the 'burbs.
    Indeed, I believe there a number around New York
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,312
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNewsnight: "At last Labour could be moving in the right direction" with Jeremy Corbyn, says comedian @therhonacameron

    "Comrades, this is your Leadership Candidate. It is an honour to speak to you today, and I am honoured to be sailing with you on the maiden voyage of our motherland's most recent achievement. Once more, we play our dangerous game, a game of chess against our old adversary — The Conservative Party. For a hundred years, your fathers before you and your older brothers played this game and played it well. But today the game is different. We have the advantage. It reminds me of the heady days of 1945 and Clement Atlee, when the world trembled at the sound of our Nationalisations! Well, they will tremble again — at the sound of our Progressiveness. The order is: engage the Corbyn Drive!

    "Comrades, our own Parliamentary Party doesn't know our full potential. They will do everything possible to test us; but they will only test their own embarrassment. We will leave our MPs behind, we will pass through the Conservative patrols, past their sonar nets, and lay off their largest constituency, and listen to their chortling and tittering... while we conduct Austerity Debates! Then, and when we are finished, the only sound they will hear is our laughter, while we sail to Brighton, where the sun is warm, and so is the... Comradeship!

    "A great day, Comrades! We sail into history!"
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    valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 605
    Jeremy and Stella got the nominations down here in Preseli.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
    One thing's for sure, the Tories will never reintroduce grammar schools, because it would mean their children might face a bit of competition for the top jobs. The only way it might happen is if the other parties have a complete change of mind on the subject, which could happen in about 25-30 years' time, with a bit of luck.
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