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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft is releasing his Boris polling in bits: Phase

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited June 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft is releasing his Boris polling in bits: Phase one on which politicians those sampled recognised

The 1st phase of @LordAshcroft Boris polling on recognition level of leading politicians. Sample shown pics
See pic.twitter.com/HRHEwwibX8

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    [turning to the camera] Boris Johnson is an alpha bloke!

    :)
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,815
    Has Lord A decided to throw his lot in with Boris then?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Has Lord Ashcroft got a man crush and is Boris interested in a bromance ?

    Waste of time and money frankly.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Boris Johnson should be leader of the Opposition.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,923
    The confused with columns are amusing

    Surprised about Bert though, would've thought it would be Wallace.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Boris Johnson should be leader of the Opposition.

    Boris Johnson will never be the leader of the opposition.


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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This table is enormous fun but it is also enormously important.

    1) It reminds us that political obsessives are a tiny minority. Philip Hammond is one of the favourites to succeed David Cameron but is recognised by one in ten of the public.

    2) It shows just what a huge public figure Boris Johnson is. He's more recognisable than the Leader of the Opposition (even making allowance for the fact that Ed Miliband unsurprisingly looks like his brother). When the history of the age is written in future, historians will struggle to explain just how important Boris Johnson was at this time.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    R5 doing big feature on how poor nurses have been abused in the street since Stafford.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647
    GIN1138 said:

    Has Lord A decided to throw his lot in with Boris then?

    Doubt it......he writes:

    "The political implications of Boris’s ubiquity are another matter. I have looked into these too – and there will be more to follow when my research on the subject is published later this week."

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2013/06/dont-tell-me-its-him-off-the-telly/
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    What would the respective recognition levels have been for John Major and Michael Heseltine in November 1990 just before Maggie was booted out?

    My guess is that's Major's numbers would have been miniscule - yet he went on to win the contest and GE1992
    antifrank said:

    This table is enormous fun but it is also enormously important.

    1) It reminds us that political obsessives are a tiny minority. Philip Hammond is one of the favourites to succeed David Cameron but is recognised by one in ten of the public.

    2) It shows just what a huge public figure Boris Johnson is. He's more recognisable than the Leader of the Opposition (even making allowance for the fact that Ed Miliband unsurprisingly looks like his brother). When the history of the age is written in future, historians will struggle to explain just how important Boris Johnson was at this time.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Disturbing findings for Labour.

    A quarter of the electorate can't identify Ed Miliband

    Just wait until 23% of the electorate realise who he is and just how crap he is.

    This will happen during a general election campaign.
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    Ones a yellow skinned, mono-browed, crazy haired, boring Muppet. The other is Bert from Sesame Street.

    I thought I'd get that in before someone else did.
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    Miliblob gets confused with Bert from Sesame Street! LOL.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Ones a yellow skinned, mono-browed, crazy haired, boring Muppet. The other is Bert from Sesame Street.

    I thought I'd get that in before someone else did.

    Don't forget Bert was friends with Osama Bin Laden

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    It's an insult to poor Bert that so many people mistake him for Ed :)
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    Boris is a top bloke, funny, witty, intelligent and very recognisable. He ain't Prime Ministerial at all though, and as much as I like him, I wouldn't want him in Number 10.
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900

    Who is to blame for the cuts? 2010 / 2011 / 2012 / 2013

    Coalition: 20 / 25 / 26 / 27
    Labour: 46 / 39 / 36 / 36

    Crossover ~ 2022.....

    Nice figures from previous thread.

    Labour are very unlikely to get elected if a plurality of the key groups of Ukip and Lib Dems blame them for the current cuts (Ukip voters by 49 to 14 and LD10 voters by 30 to 22). Especially when those two same groups (by decisive pluralities) think the cuts are bad for the economy, are being done unfairly, and are also too deep and too quick. But they are also necessary.

    Which is why we get Labour stumbling around for a message to try and avoid implosion before 2015. They shouldn't be aiming to be a one term opposition. I wonder if Miliband really believes he can win while there is still so little trust in his party's economic legacy.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    PMQs with Boris as either PM or LOTO would be entertaining.

    He's a classicist so he'd compare Ed to Themistocles' eunuch or summat
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    " You’ll never be leader if no one knows who you are…" says Guido. Certainly 10% is low for Hammond. However, on the whole, I think recognition is far more important for visionaries, where they're asking you to believe in them and their idea of what this country should be like. I don't think Thatcher or Blair could have had much success if they hadn't been recognised.

    Which I suppose leaves the question whether there is such a thing as a "visionary" or whether there are merely successful and unsuccessful prime ministers. I think Cameron shares Major's failure to win votes based on a vision, which leaves you open to the sort of assault by pragmatism (Black Wednesday, Omnishambles, etc.). I don't think they ever really went into the election peddling one, particularly, though.

    As to Hammond, he'd be the "safe pair of hands" choice, I would imagine. I think post-2015. assuming the Tories lose, they may well choose someone like that, but I think it would be a mistake.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Disturbing findings for Labour.

    A quarter of the electorate can't identify Ed Miliband

    Just wait until 23% of the electorate realise who he is and just how crap he is.

    This will happen during a general election campaign.

    Don't think it is an accident that the spotlight is being kept off rEd for now.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    If being recognised does equal success then Cameron beats Boris.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Eagles, did the Greeks have eunuchs?
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    The whole developed world and China and many others are horribly indebted. The chances of govt debt investors getting repaid in full is clearly not 100%! These are not 'Risk Free' investments. The markets are starting to price this in - by hammering govt debt prices.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/06/uk-lending-costs-are-surging-is-the-bond-bubble-about-to-burst/

    Deficit funded welfare states are on their last legs. Austerity hasn't even started yet.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Patrick said:

    The whole developed world and China and many others are horribly indebted. The chances of govt debt investors getting repaid in full is clearly not 100%! These are not 'Risk Free' investments. The markets are starting to price this in - by hammering govt debt prices.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/06/uk-lending-costs-are-surging-is-the-bond-bubble-about-to-burst/

    Deficit funded welfare states are on their last legs. Austerity hasn't even started yet.

    Could be an interesting few weeks/days in the Eurozone - and the Uk 10 year rate is on the rise too - Carney to the rescue ?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Mr. Eagles, did the Greeks have eunuchs?

    They did.

    The word Eunuch is Greek.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    I love it! Phillip Hammond sometimes confused with Julian Assange. LOL
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    @TGOHF

    What can Carney do? We're a trillion in debt and rising - thanks to Gordon Brown and Ed Balls. Debt as a % GDP is way, way too high. At some point the price of that debt will reflect its true risk. And then mortgage rates will go to 7% or something. It's a horrible, horrible risk. And it would ruin the country more comprehensively than real cuts in spending. We need to find 100 billion off public spending. Urgently. Foreign aid, EU subscriptions, welfare, NHS, the lot.

    I only hope that Labour are in power when it really hits the fan - because they caused it with their grossly irresponsible borrowing and spending.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Mr. Eagles, did the Greeks have eunuchs?

    They did.

    The word Eunuch is Greek.
    Thats the unkindest cut of all TSE.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    So does Jeremy Hunt go round saying

    "The NHS: can we fix it?"
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    What would the respective recognition levels have been for John Major and Michael Heseltine in November 1990 just before Maggie was booted out?

    My guess is that's Major's numbers would have been miniscule - yet he went on to win the contest and GE1992

    antifrank said:

    This table is enormous fun but it is also enormously important.

    1) It reminds us that political obsessives are a tiny minority. Philip Hammond is one of the favourites to succeed David Cameron but is recognised by one in ten of the public.

    2) It shows just what a huge public figure Boris Johnson is. He's more recognisable than the Leader of the Opposition (even making allowance for the fact that Ed Miliband unsurprisingly looks like his brother). When the history of the age is written in future, historians will struggle to explain just how important Boris Johnson was at this time.

    Oh quite. I'm not suggesting that Philip Hammond is a dead duck or that Boris Johnson should be seen as David Cameron's heir apparent. But there is more to public life than the greasy pole, and Boris Johnson is far more important in public life right now than many of his critics acknowledge.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    Gob-smacking Neil. I read some of the transcripts yesterday and it really does highlight the cynicism of some of those at the centre of the scandal. But will they escape punishment ?
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited June 2013
    @antifrank "Boris Johnson is far more important in public life right now than many of his critics acknowledge." I think you're probably right, but to what end? What is Boris' influence doing?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Oh, of course, eu = good.

    What's nuch, then? Riddance? Slave?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Patrick said:

    @TGOHF

    What can Carney do? We're a trillion in debt and rising - thanks to Gordon Brown and Ed Balls. Debt as a % GDP is way, way too high. At some point the price of that debt will reflect its true risk. And then mortgage rates will go to 7% or something. It's a horrible, horrible risk. And it would ruin the country more comprehensively than real cuts in spending. We need to find 100 billion off public spending. Urgently. Foreign aid, EU subscriptions, welfare, NHS, the lot.

    I only hope that Labour are in power when it really hits the fan - because they caused it with their grossly irresponsible borrowing and spending.

    Carney's job is to pull of a confidence trick - to let the market know we are serious about the debt and will never default - look like a safe haven relative to the other cripples.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    The other interesting fact to me at least.

    Given that the the economy is the number one concern for the voters (per the Mori issues index), 38% of the voters cannot correctly identify the Second Lord of the Treasury.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Oh, of course, eu = good.

    What's nuch, then? Riddance? Slave?

    Eunuch comes from the Greek eunoukhos, originally meaning "guard of the bedchamber or harem," from eune, "bed," + -ekhein, "to have, hold"
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Now I feel like a fool, Mr. Eagles.

    This must be how you feel defending Caesar compared to Hannibal.

    However, thank you for the educational post.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Now I feel like a fool, Mr. Eagles.

    This must be how you feel defending Caesar compared to Hannibal.

    However, thank you for the educational post.

    You mean I'm correct and informative in both instances?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    Gob-smacking Neil. I read some of the transcripts yesterday and it really does highlight the cynicism of some of those at the centre of the scandal. But will they escape punishment ?
    Have you got any links to yesterday's transcripts?

    I've not been on the interweb for the past few days.

    Have I missed anything major?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    No, you silly fellow, I mean your view of Caesar and Hannibal is as wrong as wrong can be. Wronger than the Thirteenth Earl of Wrongcaster.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited June 2013

    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    Gob-smacking Neil. I read some of the transcripts yesterday and it really does highlight the cynicism of some of those at the centre of the scandal. But will they escape punishment ?
    Have you got any links to yesterday's transcripts?

    I've not been on the interweb for the past few days.

    Have I missed anything major?
    Try any of the Irish papers:

    http://www.independent.ie/blog/day-one-listen-to-the-full-anglo-recordings-29370815.html

    "We won't do anything blatant, but . . . we have to get the money in . . . get the f***in' money in, get it in," he tells his senior manager, John Bowe.

    Mr Drumm and Mr Bowe are heard laughing at the concerns that the movement of money was causing a rift between Ireland and its EU partners.

    Drumm declares to his colleague: "So f***in' what. Just take it anyway . . . stick the fingers up."

    Irish Times also has transcipts but link appears to be down atm.

    Asked on the call by Peter Fitzgerald, then head of Anglo’s retail funding, where the €7 billion figure came from, Bowe said: “Just, as Drummer [David Drumm] would say, picked it out of my arse.”

    “The reality is that, actually, we need more than that. But you know the strategy here is you pull them in, you get them to write a big cheque and they have to keep, they have to support their money,” Bowe told Fitzgerald.

    He explained the plan further: “If they saw the enormity of it up front they might decide, they might decide they have a choice. You know what I mean? They might say the cost to the taxpayer is too high. But . . . if it doesn’t look too big at the outset . . . if it looks big, big enough to be important but not too big that it kind of spoils everything.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/anglo-irish-tapes
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    @Alanbrooke, blimey, and thanks.
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    Slightly surprised that Ed is more recognisable than Jeffrey.

    And would've expected that Gove creature thing to be a bit higher.

    Otherwise, meh.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Bernanke unplugged the BoE printer, all Osborne has left is a housing bubble


    You are getting your singers mixed up again - Jeffrey Osbourne is black - Michael Buble is white.

    Have you heard of itunes ? It's like a computer filled with 78rpm records.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013

    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    Gob-smacking Neil. I read some of the transcripts yesterday and it really does highlight the cynicism of some of those at the centre of the scandal. But will they escape punishment ?
    Have you got any links to yesterday's transcripts?

    I've not been on the interweb for the past few days.

    Have I missed anything major?
    Try any of the Irish papers:

    http://www.independent.ie/blog/day-one-listen-to-the-full-anglo-recordings-29370815.html

    "We won't do anything blatant, but . . . we have to get the money in . . . get the f***in' money in, get it in," he tells his senior manager, John Bowe.

    Mr Drumm and Mr Bowe are heard laughing at the concerns that the movement of money was causing a rift between Ireland and its EU partners.

    Drumm declares to his colleague: "So f***in' what. Just take it anyway . . . stick the fingers up."

    Irish Times also has transcipts but link appears to be down atm.

    Asked on the call by Peter Fitzgerald, then head of Anglo’s retail funding, where the €7 billion figure came from, Bowe said: “Just, as Drummer [David Drumm] would say, picked it out of my arse.”

    “The reality is that, actually, we need more than that. But you know the strategy here is you pull them in, you get them to write a big cheque and they have to keep, they have to support their money,” Bowe told Fitzgerald.

    He explained the plan further: “If they saw the enormity of it up front they might decide, they might decide they have a choice. You know what I mean? They might say the cost to the taxpayer is too high. But . . . if it doesn’t look too big at the outset . . . if it looks big, big enough to be important but not too big that it kind of spoils everything.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/anglo-irish-tapes
    I was chatting the other day with @chris_g0000 late of this parish about the movies Margin Call and Enron - Smartest Guys in the Room = if you haven't seen the latter - you're missing a great, compelling and horrifying documentary about how it all fell apart.

    The tapes of Enron traders gleefully conniving to bring about the energy blackouts in California are !!!!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Plato said:

    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    Gob-smacking Neil. I read some of the transcripts yesterday and it really does highlight the cynicism of some of those at the centre of the scandal. But will they escape punishment ?
    Have you got any links to yesterday's transcripts?

    I've not been on the interweb for the past few days.

    Have I missed anything major?
    Try any of the Irish papers:

    http://www.independent.ie/blog/day-one-listen-to-the-full-anglo-recordings-29370815.html

    "We won't do anything blatant, but . . . we have to get the money in . . . get the f***in' money in, get it in," he tells his senior manager, John Bowe.

    Mr Drumm and Mr Bowe are heard laughing at the concerns that the movement of money was causing a rift between Ireland and its EU partners.

    Drumm declares to his colleague: "So f***in' what. Just take it anyway . . . stick the fingers up."

    Irish Times also has transcipts but link appears to be down atm.

    Asked on the call by Peter Fitzgerald, then head of Anglo’s retail funding, where the €7 billion figure came from, Bowe said: “Just, as Drummer [David Drumm] would say, picked it out of my arse.”

    “The reality is that, actually, we need more than that. But you know the strategy here is you pull them in, you get them to write a big cheque and they have to keep, they have to support their money,” Bowe told Fitzgerald.

    He explained the plan further: “If they saw the enormity of it up front they might decide, they might decide they have a choice. You know what I mean? They might say the cost to the taxpayer is too high. But . . . if it doesn’t look too big at the outset . . . if it looks big, big enough to be important but not too big that it kind of spoils everything.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/anglo-irish-tapes
    I was chatting the other day with @chris_g0000 late of this parish about the movies Margin Call and Enron - Smartest Guys in the Room = if you haven't seen the latter - you're missing a great, compelling and horrifying documentary about how it all fell apart.
    Saw Margin Call and it was good viewing.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    http://labourlist.org/2013/06/compasss-alternative-plan-for-deficit-reduction-and-the-end-of-austerity/

    "Labour should be offering a genuine alternative to austerity in 2015. This would include a short-term economic stimulus and medium-term economic restructuring. We calculate that a £55billion stimulus package of social and green infrastructure could generate up to 1m jobs, £187bn of additional GDP and almost £75bn in terms of additional taxation.

    This stimulus package would also need to be accompanied by clear plans for managing public finances and a means of addressing the party’s association with profligacy and waste. This can be achieved by telling a story about what sort of society and economy it wants to build. If Labour is up front and honest about why it needs public spending in the first place it would receive a much more solid mandate for doing so.

    An alternative plan to eliminate the structural deficit over the medium term could be achieved by arguing for a much higher proportion of tax rises to spending cuts as outlined in our briefing. Labour could also win back trust with a series of measures such as:

    1. Adopting a zero-based budgeting approach that reviews all current spending to ensure public spending is well targeted to achieve maximum wellbeing, sustainability and reductions in inequality.
    2. Setting clear medium term fiscal rules backed by clear and democratic fiscal oversight to demonstrate to the public that they will spend tax money efficiently. It is important that Labour continues to make a clear distinction between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ borrowing and spending and convinces the public that the Labour Party would only borrow and spend for a purpose.
    3. Advocating a radical review of the state and public services in which areas of self-evident waste would be cut. This might include cutting such items as Trident renewal and the billions wasted on the Private Finance Initiative. It would also require a drive to devolve and decentralise many government functions to ensure meaningful localism and much greater efficiency and responsiveness of services. The centralised, lever-pulling basis of the British state is no longer viable as the dominant governance model in terms of democracy, accountability and efficiency.

    Aping Tory spending totals after 2015 will not win back economic credibility for Labour and it would be an economic, social and political disaster for Britain if all that was on offer from the largest centre-left party in 2015 was more austerity. Economic credibility comes from outlining a genuine alternative that would begin to tackle our interlinked economic, social and ecological crises."
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:



    I was chatting the other day with @chris_g0000 late of this parish about the movies Margin Call and Enron - Smartest Guys in the Room = if you haven't seen the latter - you're missing a great, compelling and horrifying documentary about how it all fell apart.

    The tapes of Enron traders gleefully conniving to bring about the energy blackouts in California are !!!!

    And led to a change of state governor: Gray Davis was replaced in a recall election by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Financier said:

    http://labourlist.org/2013/06/compasss-alternative-plan-for-deficit-reduction-and-the-end-of-austerity/

    "Labour should be offering a genuine alternative to austerity in 2015. This would include a short-term economic stimulus and medium-term economic restructuring. We calculate that a £55billion stimulus package of social and green infrastructure could generate up to 1m jobs, £187bn of additional GDP and almost £75bn in terms of additional taxation.

    This stimulus package would also need to be accompanied by clear plans for managing public finances and a means of addressing the party’s association with profligacy and waste. This can be achieved by telling a story about what sort of society and economy it wants to build. If Labour is up front and honest about why it needs public spending in the first place it would receive a much more solid mandate for doing so.

    An alternative plan to eliminate the structural deficit over the medium term could be achieved by arguing for a much higher proportion of tax rises to spending cuts as outlined in our briefing. Labour could also win back trust with a series of measures such as:

    1. Adopting a zero-based budgeting approach that reviews all current spending to ensure public spending is well targeted to achieve maximum wellbeing, sustainability and reductions in inequality.
    2. Setting clear medium term fiscal rules backed by clear and democratic fiscal oversight to demonstrate to the public that they will spend tax money efficiently. It is important that Labour continues to make a clear distinction between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ borrowing and spending and convinces the public that the Labour Party would only borrow and spend for a purpose.
    3. Advocating a radical review of the state and public services in which areas of self-evident waste would be cut. This might include cutting such items as Trident renewal and the billions wasted on the Private Finance Initiative. It would also require a drive to devolve and decentralise many government functions to ensure meaningful localism and much greater efficiency and responsiveness of services. The centralised, lever-pulling basis of the British state is no longer viable as the dominant governance model in terms of democracy, accountability and efficiency.

    Aping Tory spending totals after 2015 will not win back economic credibility for Labour and it would be an economic, social and political disaster for Britain if all that was on offer from the largest centre-left party in 2015 was more austerity. Economic credibility comes from outlining a genuine alternative that would begin to tackle our interlinked economic, social and ecological crises."

    How many times over did they spend £55billion and leave us with nothing to show for it ?

    The problem for Labour, as ever, is until they show recognition of how badly they handled the economy and some remorse through an apology, all their plans have a huge credibility question mark set against them.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
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    @Financier

    You can't borrow and spend your way out of a debt hole. Labour already borrowed and spent the UK's money. As Liam Byrne noted: There's no money left.

    So pain it must be.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Financier - not really the end of austerity is it : "tax rises and nice cuts"

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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    The other interesting fact to me at least.

    Given that the the economy is the number one concern for the voters (per the Mori issues index), 38% of the voters cannot correctly identify the Second Lord of the Treasury.

    Yet 94% can identify the Minister for the Civil Service. Although if you asked it the other way...

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647
    Dan Hodges:

    "Let the mad Left have a General Strike. It'll keep them happy and the rest of us will get a nice long weekend."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100223340/let-the-mad-left-have-a-general-strike-itll-keep-them-happy-and-the-rest-of-us-will-get-a-nice-long-weekend/
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If we had a General Strike, Boris Johnson could get to edit the British Gazette.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Grandiose said:

    The other interesting fact to me at least.

    Given that the the economy is the number one concern for the voters (per the Mori issues index), 38% of the voters cannot correctly identify the Second Lord of the Treasury.

    Yet 94% can identify the Minister for the Civil Service First Lord of the Treasury. Although if you asked it the other way...

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Carlotta...

    The phrase 'peoples Assembly' is cropping up more and more these days. Are they going to start putting up their own candidates? Could they turn into a sort of lefty UKIP?

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:


    The phrase 'peoples Assembly' is cropping up more and more these days. Are they going to start putting up their own candidates? Could they turn into a sort of lefty UKIP?

    You think they could all sit in the same room long enough to agree on a common electoral platform without accusing each other of trying to control the overall group?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The Peoples assembly should combine with Republicans and Common Purpose

    Common Republican Assembly of People and Purpose

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    TGOHF said:

    The Peoples assembly should combine with Republicans and Common Purpose

    Common Republican Assembly of People and Purpose

    CRAPP?

    Surely people might mistake them for Ed Miliband?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    TGOHF said:

    The Peoples assembly should combine with Republicans and Common Purpose

    Common Republican Assembly of People and Purpose

    CRAPP?

    Surely people might mistake them for Ed Miliband?
    Only after they'd called him David first.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647
    "Julie Bailey, founder of the Cure the NHS campaign group which exposed failures at the Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust has ceased trading at her business in Stafford and will leave the town.

    “I am having to leave my home, my livelihood and my friends because a few misinformed local political activists have fuelled a hate campaign based on proven lies. The final straw for me was the desecration of my mum’s grave.”

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/5060185.article
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.

    What kind of moustache?

    I'd vote for him if he had a handlebar 'tasche.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647
    "THE majority of Scottish businesses do not know enough about the prospect of independence to take a view on the subject, according to a comprehensive study of firms ahead of next year’s referendum.

    The poll of more than 800 companies across the country by the Scottish Chambers of Commerce found that, in six out of ten cases, business representatives did not know enough details of the consequences of a Yes vote to decide whether or not they were in favour of the nation becoming independent.

    Their concerns focus on issues such as taxation policy, whether Scotland would keep the pound and the country’s status as a member of the European Union.

    SNP ministers have sought to demonstrate certainty around the prospect by declaring they are “crystal clear” in supporting the retention of the pound.

    They also insist the question of EU membership would be resolved before the country became independent in 2016, if it votes Yes next year.

    However, both cases have been challenged.

    Chancellor George Osborne has declared it “unlikely” that the rest of the UK would want to share a currency, while the European Commission has stated that new states would be required to apply for membership to the EU, prompting questions over what terms an independent Scotland would negotiate."

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-business-greater-clarity-call-1-2974686
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.

    He'd look like Freddie Mercury in a Bert wig.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If Ed Miliband got himself one of those toothbrush moustaches and combed his hair differently, he'd save the producers of those godawful Downfall spoofs a lot of time and effort.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.

    What kind of moustache?

    I'd vote for him if he had a handlebar 'tasche.
    As a lefty LoTo he should have a Lenin style one with beard - after he becomes PM he can let it grow into a full Stalin.

    His father would be proud.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,261

    Dan Hodges:

    "Let the mad Left have a General Strike. It'll keep them happy and the rest of us will get a nice long weekend."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100223340/let-the-mad-left-have-a-general-strike-itll-keep-them-happy-and-the-rest-of-us-will-get-a-nice-long-weekend/

    Got a bit bored of Mr Hodges column but he is still capable of the odd witticism:

    "In fact, it became such a ritual it was a bit like attending a meeting of General Strikers Anonymous. “Hi, I’m Mark Serwotka, and I’m a striker. I haven’t had a General Strike since 1926.” “Hi, Mark.”

    Excellent.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    antifrank said:

    If Ed Miliband got himself one of those toothbrush moustaches and combed his hair differently, he'd save the producers of those godawful Downfall spoofs a lot of time and effort.

    The first few Downfall spoofs were great.

    My fave, the Glasgow East one

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n19-iAuLwQo
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647
    The Telegraph - with a flattering (quite old) photo of Tom Hanks, and a less flattering photo of Osborne:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10140786/George-Osborne-or-Tom-Hanks-Voters-confuse-senior-politicians-with-celebrities.html

    More recent Hanks: http://topnews.in/files/Tom-Hanks101.jpg
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269

    The Telegraph - with a flattering (quite old) photo of Tom Hanks, and a less flattering photo of Osborne:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10140786/George-Osborne-or-Tom-Hanks-Voters-confuse-senior-politicians-with-celebrities.html

    More recent Hanks: http://topnews.in/files/Tom-Hanks101.jpg

    How can you confuse Hanks with Osborne? I mean, who on earth are these people that were interviewed for the poll?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    The Telegraph - with a flattering (quite old) photo of Tom Hanks, and a less flattering photo of Osborne:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10140786/George-Osborne-or-Tom-Hanks-Voters-confuse-senior-politicians-with-celebrities.html

    More recent Hanks: http://topnews.in/files/Tom-Hanks101.jpg

    How can you confuse Hanks with Osborne? I mean, who on earth are these people that were interviewed for the poll?
    Precisely. Forrest Gump was more successful than Osborne ever was ;-)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,647

    antifrank said:

    If Ed Miliband got himself one of those toothbrush moustaches and combed his hair differently, he'd save the producers of those godawful Downfall spoofs a lot of time and effort.

    The first few Downfall spoofs were great.

    My fave, the Glasgow East one
    It only really works with Brown - both Blair & Cameron are of too sunny a disposition - and fun tho it is to poke fun at Salmond, it doesn't ring 'true' like Brown:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va6r5Ez-VF8
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,062
    A piece that will be of no interest to 95% of PB Tories since nowhere does it say Ed is crap. Interesting nonetheless.

    'Ed Miliband Adviser Stewart Wood On Austerity, Europe And Nigel Farage

    Does the peer personally support an in/out EU referendum? In theory? There’s a very long pause. “I don’t think you can have a view on that without the date, actually.” He pauses again. The division bell sounds. He continues: “We are already committed to having a referendum if there is a treaty change. But I think, given the state of economic certainty in this country but also in the Eurozone, the right thing to do is to wait till the election [to make a decision].”
    But it is conceivable that Labour could offer a referendum, right? “It’s conceivable because we are going to make up our minds before the next election when we have a manifesto to put to the British people.”'

    http://tinyurl.com/pukuyj3
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Surprised OGH isn't pointing out his winning tweet on this bet - 3/1

    http://www.cityam.com/blog/ladbrokes-pay-out-3-1-over-anas-sarwars-jeffrey-osborne-jibe
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    edited June 2013

    Surprised OGH isn't pointing out his winning tweet on this bet - 3/1

    http://www.cityam.com/blog/ladbrokes-pay-out-3-1-over-anas-sarwars-jeffrey-osborne-jibe

    He already has

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 35m

    On behalf of punters who took the Ladbrokes 3/1 that Osbo would be called Jeffrey in the Commons I thank LAB's Anas Sarwar
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    edited June 2013

    A piece that will be of no interest to 95% of PB Tories since nowhere does it say Ed is crap. Interesting nonetheless.

    'Ed Miliband Adviser Stewart Wood On Austerity, Europe And Nigel Farage

    Does the peer personally support an in/out EU referendum? In theory? There’s a very long pause. “I don’t think you can have a view on that without the date, actually.” He pauses again. The division bell sounds. He continues: “We are already committed to having a referendum if there is a treaty change. But I think, given the state of economic certainty in this country but also in the Eurozone, the right thing to do is to wait till the election [to make a decision].”
    But it is conceivable that Labour could offer a referendum, right? “It’s conceivable because we are going to make up our minds before the next election when we have a manifesto to put to the British people.”'

    http://tinyurl.com/pukuyj3

    Lord Wood is a thoughtful chap.

    Ed Miliband is always of interest to us Tories.

    We're more than likely to have Ed as PM when you've become Independent.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    I stand corrected!

    Mike Smithson‏@MSmithsonPB35m
    On behalf of punters who took the Ladbrokes 3/1 that Osbo would be called Jeffrey in the Commons I thank LAB's Anas Sarwar
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    edited June 2013

    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.

    He'd look like Freddie Mercury in a Bert wig.
    Part of Ed's problem is that he does not really have a face that looks threatening, or even intimidating. I've just been through Google Images and cannot find any where I can imagine, with a little snarl, he would look in any way hawkish, yet alone dangerous.

    I can imagine Gordon Brown as the head of a Glaswegian mafia family, kneecapping potential rivals in ice-cream wars; he can have that look. Indeed, being in charge of the Labour party is probably a bit like being the head of a Glaswegian mafia family...

    Like this one, where I could just imagine him saying: "I will crush you..."
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/article6784444.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/Gordon+Brown

    But Ed just doesn't seem to have a *steely* look; indeed, he can look rather wimpish. This was the best I could find of Ed: http://www.leftfootforward.org/images/2013/06/Ed-Miliband-face.png

    Cameron doesn't really have it either, although I can imagine him as the head of a corporate supergiant asset-stripping the world: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/David_Cameron_at_the_37th_G8_Summit_in_Deauville_104.jpg

    As for Clegg...

    God knows what effect, if any, this has on the electorate.

    (Edit: typos)
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic, I was watching Ed Miliband on the youtube today and I thought he'd look better with a moustache. Nobody would mistake him for David Miliband or Bert from Sesame Street if he had a moustache.

    He'd look like Freddie Mercury in a Bert wig.
    Part of Ed's problem is that he does not really have a face that looks threatening, or even intimidating. I've just been through Google Images and cannot find any where I can imagine, with a little snarl, he would look in any way hawkish, yet alone dangerous.

    I can imagine Gordon Brown as the head of a Glaswegian mafia family, kneecapping potential rivals in ice-cream wars; he can have that look. Indeed, being in charge of the Labour party is probably a bit like being the head of a Glaswegian mafia family...

    Like this one, where I could just imagine him saying: "I will crush you..."
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/article6784444.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/Gordon+Brown

    But Ed just doesn't seem to have a *steely* look; indeed, he can look rather wimpish. This was the best I could find of Ed: http://www.leftfootforward.org/images/2013/06/Ed-Miliband-face.png

    Cameron doesn't really have it either, although I can imagine him as the head of a corporate supergiant asset-stripping the world: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/David_Cameron_at_the_37th_G8_Summit_in_Deauville_104.jpg

    As for Cleg...

    God knows what effect, if any, this has on the electorate.
    It's the problem of metrosexual party leaders none of them look particularly fit for the job. And yet the happiest smiliest of the bunch TB wasn't afraid of a bit of carpet bombing when it suited.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    And yet the happiest smiliest of the bunch TB wasn't afraid of a bit of carpet bombing when it suited.

    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.

    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,261
    The similarity is just uncanny isn't it? http://www.sesamestreet.org/muppets/bert
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    I make this the best five-poll average lead over Labour (-7.2) from YouGov the Tories have had since April 2012.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,062
    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    edited June 2013

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Neil said:

    More unbelievable tape recordings for those who enjoyed yesterday's installment from Anglo Irish Bank's executives:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0625/458631-anglo-tapes/

    You'd think there must be some recordings involving calls to government figures as well? I wonder if there are and they're going to drip-feed it.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    TOPPING said:

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
    The appropriate term if that was what happened would be "dim-witted moronic gullible cretinous idiocy", but in reality I doubt that's how it went down.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295

    TOPPING said:

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
    The appropriate term if that was what happened would be "dim-witted moronic gullible cretinous idiocy", but in reality I doubt that's how it went down.
    a) you have all the information and intelligence, therefore on a matter of such importance we have no other intelligence to disagree so we vote for.
    b) you have all the information and intelligence but we don't believe you so we vote against.

    Of the two responses, only one is possible. And it's not the latter. No matter what you "knew" then or "know" now.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
    The appropriate term if that was what happened would be "dim-witted moronic gullible cretinous idiocy", but in reality I doubt that's how it went down.
    a) you have all the information and intelligence, therefore on a matter of such importance we have no other intelligence to disagree so we vote for.
    b) you have all the information and intelligence but we don't believe you so we vote against.

    Of the two responses, only one is possible. And it's not the latter. No matter what you "knew" then or "know" now.
    If (a) then can you explain why Douglas Hurd, David Howell, Douglas Hogg and the various other Tory backbenchers/Lords who had previously served in the FCO opposed the war?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    edited June 2013
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
    The appropriate term if that was what happened would be "dim-witted moronic gullible cretinous idiocy", but in reality I doubt that's how it went down.
    a) you have all the information and intelligence, therefore on a matter of such importance we have no other intelligence to disagree so we vote for.
    b) you have all the information and intelligence but we don't believe you so we vote against.

    Of the two responses, only one is possible. And it's not the latter. No matter what you "knew" then or "know" now.
    So how come the LibDems and many Labour people (and even a few Tories) voted against War?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,062
    TOPPING said:


    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    Oh, I agree it's an all heat and no light subject. However every time the persistent meme is repeated on here that it's entirely a problem for a previous Labour government, the Labour party and Labour supporters, I can't resist a prod. In fact, I consider it an obligation...

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269

    TOPPING said:


    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    Oh, I agree it's an all heat and no light subject. However every time the persistent meme is repeated on here that it's entirely a problem for a previous Labour government, the Labour party and Labour supporters, I can't resist a prod. In fact, I consider it an obligation...

    I thought you were SNP, not Labour :)
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,295
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    taffys said:


    Blair was Dubya's b8tch. Carpet bombing was the least he could do.
    It must really please labour supporters and their most successful leader electorally was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and stupid.

    It must really please Conservative supporters that their parliamentary party was the craven lackey of a man they consider both evil and venal.



    Oh god we're not here again are we?

    How well do you think parliament would operate under the Jeremy Paxman "why are these lying b*****ds lying to me" principle? Crazy as it was, the current PM made a statement in the HoC and the Opposition believed him.

    Madness, I agree.
    The appropriate term if that was what happened would be "dim-witted moronic gullible cretinous idiocy", but in reality I doubt that's how it went down.
    a) you have all the information and intelligence, therefore on a matter of such importance we have no other intelligence to disagree so we vote for.
    b) you have all the information and intelligence but we don't believe you so we vote against.

    Of the two responses, only one is possible. And it's not the latter. No matter what you "knew" then or "know" now.
    If (a) then can you explain why Douglas Hurd, David Howell, Douglas Hogg and the various other Tory backbenchers/Lords who had previously served in the FCO opposed the war?
    they may have adopted b) and that's fine. But for HMO to oppose plans to go to war when they are being told by HMG that there is a credible threat is not tenable.

    As for @Sunil, they I suspect they are pacifists and good luck to them but being a pacifist requires agreeing (or not agreeing) to specific courses of action in the face of various threats of and actual violence. Or to put it another way, there is little to which such people think violence is an approrpriate response.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,062



    I thought you were SNP, not Labour :)

    Pointing out that the two main governing parties of the UK are duplicitous, war-mongering, craven lickers of US neo-con bottoms is entirely consistent with that.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    'Hollywood actor Brian Cox to be voice of Duggy Dug'

    Acclaimed Holywood actor, Brian Cox, is to be the voice behind the new cartoon character Duggy Dug it can be revealed.

    The Dundee born filmstar, famous for his roles in the Jason Bourne trilogy and Planet of the Apes, will be the voice of Newsnet Scotland's radical new cartoon creation, which is based on a highland terrier.

    The project, a collaboration involving a professional artist, animator and filmmaker, will see Duggy explore some of the key issues of the independence debate in a humorous and informative mix that will both entertain and educate.

    Duggy Dug, is a scruffy yet likeable old Scotttish terrier whose eyesight isn't the best - but who uses his nose to sniff out fact from fiction as he wanders through some of the more controversial areas of the debate, wisecracking along the way...

    Commenting, Brian Cox said: "One of the most effective ways to combat fear is through humour.

    "If we can provide a few laughs, at the same time as showing just how ridiculous some of the anti-independence scare stories actually are then it can only help.

    "I think Duggy Dug has the potential to inject a bit of fun into the referendum debate, and that's surely good thing."


    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7639-holywood-actor-brian-cox-to-be-voice-of-duggy-dug
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    So how come the LibDems and many Labour people (and even a few Tories) voted against War?

    Labour trusted their leader less than the tories did?

    I wonder what IDS thinks now. Imagine he'd led his troops into the anti-lobby......
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    TOPPING said:

    they may have adopted b) and that's fine. But for HMO to oppose plans to go to war when they are being told by HMG that there is a credible threat is not tenable.

    The opposition isn't allowed to oppose a war if the government says there's a credible threat? WTF?

    There may be parliamentary conventions against saying, "Since I don't have cornflakes for brains, I'm not going to take the word of a lying scumbag like the Prime Minister". But they have plenty of other ways of saying it.

    The Tory leadership supported the war because they... supported the war.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Duugy Dug :-
This discussion has been closed.