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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Four hours and 26 minutes after exit poll Betfair punters r

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Four hours and 26 minutes after exit poll Betfair punters rated a CON majority as a 28% shot

Two months to the day after the election and people are still talking about the outcome which I would argue was a bigger shock than what happened in 1992. Then there was just one poll that was showing a Tory leader. In the run up to May 7th quite a number of the phone polls had reasonable CON margins including a couple which had a blue lead of 6%.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    First?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    First?

    ...Past the Post?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Betfair has changed betting forever, everyman is now a bookie and in a position to take a position. Interesting that around 2% of Betfair users make a profit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Two months since VE Day - Victory over Ed Day!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I was surprised how slowly the price on this moved. I was able to reverse my large position against Conservative Majority at good odds even after Swindon North and Nuneaton had shown Conservative outperformance against the exit poll. The pb threads that night make for gripping reading still.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    antifrank said:

    I was surprised how slowly the price on this moved. I was able to reverse my large position against Conservative Majority at good odds even after Swindon North and Nuneaton had shown Conservative outperformance against the exit poll. The pb threads that night make for gripping reading still.

    Agreed even i managed to break even from a balls deep position
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    I managed to make a loss, but then, my only bet was on the Greens and their deposit retention rate (which sounds a bit horrendous...).
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    7/7 and the ICM poll that show the horrific level of support for Isis seem to be the truths that dare not speak their name here

    Let's all talk about how clever we were on a bet two months ago instead
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT you may like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3151316/Incredible-racing-simulator-lets-drive-virtual-car-complete-realistic-vibrations-stomach-churning-turns-G-FORCE.html

    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

    Mr D: sorry to hear about your news this morning.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Curve ball in budget of wowzer proportions according to Newsnight tweet.

    Tax free lump sum on pensions abolished from tomorrow???
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

    Agreed. The real story is not some existent "backlash". If anything, there ought to be more anger about what has happened and is continuing to happen though (and this should not need saying) no taking this out on individual Muslims.

    Rather the real story is the failure or refusal of a sufficient number of Muslims (however much of a minority they may be) in the UK (and in other countries) to integrate into the West such that those people constitute a real threat to the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Plato said:

    OT you may like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3151316/Incredible-racing-simulator-lets-drive-virtual-car-complete-realistic-vibrations-stomach-churning-turns-G-FORCE.html

    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

    Hmmm, I think the professional simulators used by the top F1 teams would make that look rather tame.

    However: the movements in that video seem rather over the top. Perhaps they need to do that to simulate the G-forces?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    Entirely O/T - a plea for help.

    My son is flying to the US on Thursday. He's made his ESTA application. Currently the site is not allowing him to pay - technical issues. If this continues, any idea how else one can pay?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Isam, we could always talk about my winning tip this very day.

    Or my three winning tips the last weekend :D

    [Admittedly, I fluked all of those three. But if a man is pushed out of a plane and lands in the Playboy mansion swimming pool, he ought not complain].

    Miss Plato, that looks crazy. I do think VR could work well with racing games, as it's primarily forward-facing, but checking mirrors and getting rain on the visor could fit nicely.

    Mr. Jessop, thanks. Just over a day since I first knew anything was wrong. All rather sudden.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    If the best they could find would be Richard Dawkins, of all people, then perhaps they're wise not to have him on. After all, even if you put him up against Osama Bin Laden on his recent form he would still look like a fool.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Cyclefree, agree entirely.

    On ESTA: if you get no joy here and are on Twitter, try asking there. Firms/organisations do monitor it and often offer advice quickly (tweets about something being rubbish are bad publicity). Sorry I can't offer more direct help.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :wink:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11724596/Sketch-The-fight-against-EVEL.html
    It’s always fun to watch Mr Wishart in full flow. His ranting is so physical. Jigging and flailing, he looks like a marionette trying in vain to break free of its strings. At his most scandalised his voice becomes a bat-like squeak. It is unknown whether he uses this capability to hunt insects in the dark.

    The SNP certainly sound outraged with the Government about EVEL. The trouble is, they’ve sounded identically outraged with the Government about pretty much everything else, too – and the sheer relentlessness of their outrage is starting to make it hard to tell how authentic that outrage is. Is it always real, or sometimes merely for show – or even just force of habit? Perhaps as a test the Government should unexpectedly offer the SNP something they profess to want, just to see how they respond.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    Miss Cyclefree, agree entirely.

    On ESTA: if you get no joy here and are on Twitter, try asking there. Firms/organisations do monitor it and often offer advice quickly (tweets about something being rubbish are bad publicity). Sorry I can't offer more direct help.

    Thanks. Am not on Twitter. I've gone to the US government site. I expect it will be working again soon. I hope so anyway! There seems to be some technical issue. I just don't want to find that he won't have paid by the time his flight leaves on Thursday evening.

    I do wish there was a contact number one could call in these situations. All this online stuff is all very well but if it doesn't work one's stuffed.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    Curve ball in budget of wowzer proportions according to Newsnight tweet.

    Tax free lump sum on pensions abolished from tomorrow???

    If that is correct with no mitigation, it will make the omni shambles look like a master stroke.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Cyclefree, quite. Whilst I do a lot of online stuff, having physical addresses and telephone numbers (though I'm not fond of phoning) is very useful for when the online stuff's failing or for people simply not into it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    :wink:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11724596/Sketch-The-fight-against-EVEL.html

    It’s always fun to watch Mr Wishart in full flow. His ranting is so physical. Jigging and flailing, he looks like a marionette trying in vain to break free of its strings. At his most scandalised his voice becomes a bat-like squeak. It is unknown whether he uses this capability to hunt insects in the dark.

    The SNP certainly sound outraged with the Government about EVEL. The trouble is, they’ve sounded identically outraged with the Government about pretty much everything else, too – and the sheer relentlessness of their outrage is starting to make it hard to tell how authentic that outrage is. Is it always real, or sometimes merely for show – or even just force of habit? Perhaps as a test the Government should unexpectedly offer the SNP something they profess to want, just to see how they respond.
    Scottish journos have been sending out press clipping from Wishart and Salmond, from the days when they were vocally in favour of EVEL and castigating Labour for voting on English only issues...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DanHannanMEP: It's Greece or us, Spanish PM @marianorajoy tells the EU. http://t.co/DHCZZTfdRT
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    If the best they could find would be Richard Dawkins, of all people, then perhaps they're wise not to have him on. After all, even if you put him up against Osama Bin Laden on his recent form he would still look like a fool.
    You don't need Dawkins. You need someone sensible to say what needs saying: Islamic terrorism does have something to do with Islam even if it doesn't or shouldn't define it. Rather than get upset about this other Muslims should do more to ensure that those who claim to follow their religion don't bring it into disrepute. They should stop complaining about being seen as victims and being picked on and take 5 minutes to realise that if people from one community go off to fight against this country or to find ways of harming those in this country or to otherwise undermine or refuse to abide by the laws of this country then it is no surprise that other people like them will be viewed as a potential risk. This is not victimisation but sensible risk assessment. If they want this view to change then the behaviour needs to change. And, for good measure, that the rest of us - including Muslims who are proud to be British and contribute a great deal to this country - are sick and tired of having in this country those who hate it and are only here to spit on it. We'd all be better off without such people.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    saddened said:

    Curve ball in budget of wowzer proportions according to Newsnight tweet.

    Tax free lump sum on pensions abolished from tomorrow???

    If that is correct with no mitigation, it will make the omni shambles look like a master stroke.
    Could be anything. Just described as a Wowzer curve ball
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015
    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

    Agreed. The real story is not some existent "backlash". If anything, there ought to be more anger about what has happened and is continuing to happen though (and this should not need saying) no taking this out on individual Muslims.

    Rather the real story is the failure or refusal of a sufficient number of Muslims (however much of a minority they may be) in the UK (and in other countries) to integrate into the West such that those people constitute a real threat to the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    The lack of backlash against Muslims is something the British public should be lauded for. It is extraordinary that a man can walk past the Houses of Parliament draped in an ISIS flag and not be attacked, I don't think that would happen in less tolerant societies

    As for the second paragraph, that is an impossibility. When you have the levels of immigration that have led to the number of Muslims in the UK, there will be a certain amount that won't integrate. That was what Enoch Powell was saying and the demonisation of him and the refusal to listen is why we are where we are

    It's a question of numbers arriving, not anything to do with the Koran or Islam particularly. Too many immigrants too quickly and this is what happens and would have happened if it had been Hindus, Jews, Mormons or any other religion you care to name
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    It seems we are returning to 19th century finance, when banks not governments issued money:
    http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/248125

    "Citigroup Is Testing Its Own Bitcoin: 'Citicoin' "
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    JamesClayton ‏@JamesClayton5 2h2 hours ago
    Wowzers - one of the reforms in the budget tomorrow is a real curve ball. More to be revealed on #Newsnight tonight.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Scott_P said:

    @DanHannanMEP: It's Greece or us, Spanish PM @marianorajoy tells the EU. http://t.co/DHCZZTfdRT

    I did enjoy reading that article via translate. Some absolute gems (original spelling and punctuation):

    'The scene of the 'no' greek is good for the electoral interests of the PP always endures Brussels to Athens. Otherwise, what could be understood as a drop of pants - Accept a haircut and unconditional restructuring...of the debt it would have a clear rebound effect in Spain.'

    It's as good as English as She is Spoke.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    If the best they could find would be Richard Dawkins, of all people, then perhaps they're wise not to have him on. After all, even if you put him up against Osama Bin Laden on his recent form he would still look like a fool.
    You don't need Dawkins. You need someone sensible to say what needs saying: Islamic terrorism does have something to do with Islam even if it doesn't or shouldn't define it. Rather than get upset about this other Muslims should do more to ensure that those who claim to follow their religion don't bring it into disrepute. They should stop complaining about being seen as victims and being picked on and take 5 minutes to realise that if people from one community go off to fight against this country or to find ways of harming those in this country or to otherwise undermine or refuse to abide by the laws of this country then it is no surprise that other people like them will be viewed as a potential risk. This is not victimisation but sensible risk assessment. If they want this view to change then the behaviour needs to change. And, for good measure, that the rest of us - including Muslims who are proud to be British and contribute a great deal to this country - are sick and tired of having in this country those who hate it and are only here to spit on it. We'd all be better off without such people.

    I would argue that if you want someone sensible you would actually be better off without Dawkins (or for that matter, Terry Sanderson, who is almost as odd). Really, the person you want is my old German studies lecturer, who had a wonderfully dry wit that could carry you along on a tide of humour about his fanatical atheism - and perhaps more importantly, was scrupulously honest and polite.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Speedy said:

    It seems we are returning to 19th century finance, when banks not governments issued money:
    http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/248125

    "Citigroup Is Testing Its Own Bitcoin: 'Citicoin' "

    Dave could issue the BitCameron :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Doethur, you can get automatically generated subtitles on Youtube videos now (unsure if it's just some or universal). Some of those are comically awful.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Speedy said:

    It seems we are returning to 19th century finance, when banks not governments issued money:
    http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/248125

    "Citigroup Is Testing Its Own Bitcoin: 'Citicoin' "

    Dave could issue the BitCameron :)
    Ed would have issued the Bit Crap
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    isam said:

    When you have the levels of immigration that have led to the number of Muslims in the UK, there will be a certain amount that won't integrate. That was what Enoch Powell was saying and the demonisation of him and the refusal to listen is why we are where we are

    Enoch Powell didn't exactly help his own case by inventing stories to support his arguments. Nor did he help his case by being one of the most vocal encouragers of migration to support the NHS when he was Health Minister. Moreover, I would point out that it was the British, as much as the immigrants, who discouraged integration in the 1950s, rendering the whole point rather moot.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited July 2015
    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    If the post 7/7 hate crimes were anything like the post Lee Rigby hate crimes then the bullk of them were online posts. Nothing like talking up a backlash to receive government funding...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    When you have the levels of immigration that have led to the number of Muslims in the UK, there will be a certain amount that won't integrate. That was what Enoch Powell was saying and the demonisation of him and the refusal to listen is why we are where we are

    Enoch Powell didn't exactly help his own case by inventing stories to support his arguments. Nor did he help his case by being one of the most vocal encouragers of migration to support the NHS when he was Health Minister. Moreover, I would point out that it was the British, as much as the immigrants, who discouraged integration in the 1950s, rendering the whole point rather moot.
    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration

    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the real story is the failure or refusal of a sufficient number of Muslims (however much of a minority they may be) in the UK (and in other countries) to integrate into the West such that those people constitute a real threat to the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    The lack of backlash against Muslims is something the British public should be lauded for. It is extraordinary that a man can walk past the Houses of Parliament draped in an ISIS flag and not be attacked, I don't think that would happen in less tolerant societies

    As for the second paragraph, that is an impossibility. When you have the levels of immigration that have led to the number of Muslims in the UK, there will be a certain amount that won't integrate. That was what Enoch Powell was saying and the demonisation of him and the refusal to listen is why we are where we are

    It's a question of numbers arriving, not anything to do with the Koran or Islam particularly. Too many immigrants too quickly and this is what happens and would have happened if it had been Hindus, Jews, Mormons or any other religion you care to name
    I don't agree with you that numbers are the only factor. They are one factor, certainly. But the culture/religion/background an immigrant comes from does matter. And the third factor is the attitude of the host country to those immigrants it invites in - whether it is proud of itself and requires those who come here to make positive efforts to become British (which, IMO, involves something more - considerably more - than simply holding a British passport) or whether it simply tells immigrants that they have no need to change any of their behaviour at all even thought they may have moved half-way round the world.

    It is the combination of those 3 factors which has led us to the mess we're in because they happened at a time when the Muslim world as a whole was being riven by the development and spread of a particularly vile strain of fundamentalist thought which has led to many Muslim countries being riven with hatred and violence.

    As for ISIS flags outside Parliament, while British phlegm is to be applauded sometimes this sort of stiff upper lip/keep calm and carry on approach is not praiseworthy but just plain weakness and fear. A bit more "we're not going to put up with your bullying nonsense" would be welcome, frankly.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    A full month of EU summits?

    Peter Spiegel ‏@SpiegelPeter 1h1 hour ago
    Just noticed my summit press credentials don't have today's date. Says "July 2015". Bad sign? Month of summits?

    Raoul Ruparel ‏@RaoulRuparel 1h1 hour ago
    Raoul Ruparel retweeted CNBC Now
    Interesting if its an EU summit not Euro summit seems far more likely to be about #Grexit

    Cameron might be away for a long time.
    I wonder what his position would be, Grexit is the only solution to the crisis and it's a hand grenade that can explode anytime, politically it will be better for the Tories to have the Grexit explosion now rather than closer to the next election.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    I find it curious the BBC's coverage of the 7/7 attacks keeps on going into the 'backlash' of Islamophobia, but no coverage of the deeper causes that caused four British Muslims to kill their fellow citizens. For every Muslim activist, they should have a Richard Dawkins on to comment.

    If the best they could find would be Richard Dawkins, of all people, then perhaps they're wise not to have him on. After all, even if you put him up against Osama Bin Laden on his recent form he would still look like a fool.
    You don't need Dawkins. You need someone sensible to say what needs saying: Islamic terrorism does have something to do with Islam even if it doesn't or shouldn't define it. Rather than get upset about this other Muslims should do more to ensure that those who claim to follow their religion don't bring it into disrepute. They should stop complaining about being seen as victims and being picked on and take 5 minutes to realise that if people from one community go off to fight against this country or to find ways of harming those in this country or to otherwise undermine or refuse to abide by the laws of this country then it is no surprise that other people like them will be viewed as a potential risk. This is not victimisation but sensible risk assessment. If they want this view to change then the behaviour needs to change. And, for good measure, that the rest of us - including Muslims who are proud to be British and contribute a great deal to this country - are sick and tired of having in this country those who hate it and are only here to spit on it. We'd all be better off without such people.

    I would argue that if you want someone sensible you would actually be better off without Dawkins (or for that matter, Terry Sanderson, who is almost as odd). Really, the person you want is my old German studies lecturer, who had a wonderfully dry wit that could carry you along on a tide of humour about his fanatical atheism - and perhaps more importantly, was scrupulously honest and polite.

    Sarcasm and laughter are quite good responses to such people. There is plenty of material available to undermine them. What we lack are people with the courage to say what needs saying.

    Chris Mullin when he was a journalist and campaigning for the Birmingham 6 and others was wonderful at pricking the self-importance and pomposity of retired judges and other lawyers completely unable or unwilling to accept that the legal system had failed in that and other cases. It was a joy to watch. He was sharp, merciless and funny. Someone with that approach and real knowledge about the nonsense these people speak could demolish most of the "Muslim" spokesmen in no time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Cyclefree said:


    Sarcasm and laughter are quite good responses to such people. There is plenty of material available to undermine them. What we lack are people with the courage to say what needs saying.

    Chris Mullin when he was a journalist and campaigning for the Birmingham 6 and others was wonderful at pricking the self-importance and pomposity of retired judges and other lawyers completely unable or unwilling to accept that the legal system had failed in that and other cases. It was a joy to watch. He was sharp, merciless and funny. Someone with that approach and real knowledge about the nonsense these people speak could demolish most of the "Muslim" spokesmen in no time.

    I'm not sure sarcasm is a good response. It merely drags you to their level (this is one of Dawkins' weaknesses, that and the inability to frame logical arguments based on facts, which is puzzling in a man who was a scientist at one time). Amusement sometimes works. But the best way is with sweet reason and integrity. I regret to say, having made a detailed study of Dawkins' work, that he does not possess either quality. So like I say - don't go for him. Go for somebody who can beat them on our terms, rather than lose on theirs.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name
    I don't agree with you that numbers are the only factor. They are one factor, certainly. But the culture/religion/background an immigrant comes from which, IMO, involves something more - considerably more - than simply holding a British passport) or whether it simply tells immigrants that they have no need to change any of their behaviour at all even thought they may have moved half-way round the world.

    It is the combination of those 3 factors which has led us to the mess we're in because they happened at a time when the Muslim world as a whole was being riven by the development and spread of a particularly vile strain of fundamentalist thought which has led to many Muslim countries being riven with hatred and violence.

    As for ISIS flags outside Parliament, while British phlegm is to be applauded sometimes this sort of stiff upper lip/keep calm and carry on approach is not praiseworthy but just plain weakness and fear. A bit more "we're not going to put up with your bullying nonsense" would be welcome, frankly.

    Ok I would agree to an extent but think numbers are by far the most important thing, the attitude of the host nation (in our case unbelievably insanely weak) being a relatively distant second and the particulars if the religion a distant third

    I say this because, without agreeing with the 'they're not Muslims' line from Cameron et al, they obviously are Muslims, I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    It is the nature of conflict that causes the trouble we have, and that will never go away as long as humans exist. That's not the fault of the Muslims, ive no doubt it would be the same if a similar number of Christians migrated to Pakistan. The madness is we literally invited it, despite warnings spelling out the precise nature of the danger.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    My memory may be rusty but I believe the constituent was identified and Powell's account of what happened was confirmed by either the lady's friends or family.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    You are wrong on many counts there. Firstly it was way before the Ugandan immigration and secondly it has been proved that the woman existed
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    MP_SE said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    My memory may be rusty but I believe the constituent was identified and Powell's account of what happened was confirmed by either the lady's friends or family.
    Then I fear your memory is indeed rusty. A huge effort was made to find her - but she was not found. If such a person did come forward later - I'm unaware of it, but I'm not omniscient and I could be wrong - she did not live in Powell's constituency, which immediately calls his integrity into question.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Looking back over the threads from the election night, I came across this exchange:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/05/08/jim-murphy-loses-his-seat-now-in-what-is-now-scotterdammerung/
    trublue said:

    antifrank said:

    said:

    This looks like a majority to me. Outside London, Labour have made no progress in England and Wales against the Conservatives so far.

    10/1 for a con majority on Befair now if you feel like swimming against the tide. Personally I think the exit poll will be closer to the final result than a majority. Still a very good result for the Tories.
    This was after the Conservatives had held their top four most vulnerable seats and taken a string of seats off the Lib Dems.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ydoethur said:

    MP_SE said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    My memory may be rusty but I believe the constituent was identified and Powell's account of what happened was confirmed by either the lady's friends or family.
    Then I fear your memory is indeed rusty. A huge effort was made to find her - but she was not found. If such a person did come forward later - I'm unaware of it, but I'm not omniscient and I could be wrong - she did not live in Powell's constituency, which immediately calls his integrity into question.
    'Whatever criticism may have been levelled at Powell for his opinions, it was a noble decision to keep Druscilla's identity a secret. His brave stance, which meant abandoning a libel action against the Sunday Times when it became clear he would have to disclose the letter and Mrs Cotterill's name, encouraged accusations from opponents that the letter was a fabrication, and helped end his political career. His silence also enabled Druscilla to live out her life in anonymity.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-433497/Widow-Enoch-Powells-Rivers-Blood-speech-really-did-exist.html
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited July 2015
    ydoethur said:

    MP_SE said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    My memory may be rusty but I believe the constituent was identified and Powell's account of what happened was confirmed by either the lady's friends or family.
    Then I fear your memory is indeed rusty. A huge effort was made to find her - but she was not found. If such a person did come forward later - I'm unaware of it, but I'm not omniscient and I could be wrong - she did not live in Powell's constituency, which immediately calls his integrity into question.
    Quick Google search threw up the following.

    The Daily Mail identified the constituent as being Druscilla Cotterill. Looks like Powell was largely truthful with the exception of the excrement through the letterbox which happened to someone else on the street and was possibly unrelated to race.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-433497/Widow-Enoch-Powells-Rivers-Blood-speech-really-did-exist.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:


    He neither invented stories nor encouraged migration
    The quotes in his speech were true and he encouraged temporary workers for jobs that needed filling rather than immigration en masse

    I was thinking of the story of the woman in his constituency who because the other residents in her street were all Ugandans, was afraid to leave her house, who had had excrement pushed through her letterbox, who suffered racial abuse from non-white people. That was proven to be a lie - there was no such street in his constituency. Indeed, he later came close to admitting it himself. His encouragement of migration was also not 'temporary,' except in the sense he later changed his mind about it. The permits were mostly open-ended.

    Powell was a very able speaker and parliamentarian, a capable minister and an outstanding linguist. He was also not somebody whose unsupported word should be trusted.
    You are wrong on many counts there. Firstly it was way before the Ugandan immigration and secondly it has been proved that the woman existed
    You're correct about Uganda (late night, tired) I meant Jamaican. I stand by my second point (see above). I have checked and there are claims about a possible candidate called Druscilla Coterrill, but the argument is entirely speculative (based on the fact that she was a war widow!) and moreover, is flatly denied by those who actually knew her. Apart from anything else, she had no children (unlike the woman in the letter).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    edited July 2015
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Sarcasm and laughter are quite good responses to such people. There is plenty of material available to undermine them. What we lack are people with the courage to say what needs saying.

    Chris Mullin when he was a journalist and campaigning for the Birmingham 6 and others was wonderful at pricking the self-importance and pomposity of retired judges and other lawyers completely unable or unwilling to accept that the legal system had failed in that and other cases. It was a joy to watch. He was sharp, merciless and funny. Someone with that approach and real knowledge about the nonsense these people speak could demolish most of the "Muslim" spokesmen in no time.

    I'm not sure sarcasm is a good response. It merely drags you to their level (this is one of Dawkins' weaknesses, that and the inability to frame logical arguments based on facts, which is puzzling in a man who was a scientist at one time). Amusement sometimes works. But the best way is with sweet reason and integrity. I regret to say, having made a detailed study of Dawkins' work, that he does not possess either quality. So like I say - don't go for him. Go for somebody who can beat them on our terms, rather than lose on theirs.
    I wholeheartedly agree with the last line. Sarcasm is not incompatible with reason and integrity. There are lots of ways in which these people can be shown up for what they are and we need to use them all. The reason I mentioned laughter is that bullies, pompous bullies at that, do not like to be laughed at and often react very badly and it can - used sensibly - be a very good tactic to undermine the self-important.

    What is needed is people spelling out facts e.g. Mohammed using beheading to kill his enemies and why this is now being copied by IS and others and asking "Is this something to be copied?" (if indeed Mohammed is the exemplar of the perfect life) and, if not, why not? Are there other things which he did which should not now be copied? And so on. Pressing people (like the Oxford professor who refused to criticise stoning of women) why they are unable to do that and how they reconcile that with the university's code of ethics which will doubtless have some gender equality guff in it which everyone will ignore when it suits them. There is no end to the hypocrisies and intellectual contortions these people would get tied up in if only they were exposed.

    But underneath all the politeness, reason and integrity, there needs to be real anger at these people, cold anger at the vileness of their views, and a ferocious determination to expose them and not let them get away with the lies, half-truths, evasions and self-pitying bullying and grievance-mongering that we've put up with for far too long.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    JamesClayton ‏@JamesClayton5 2h2 hours ago
    Wowzers - one of the reforms in the budget tomorrow is a real curve ball. More to be revealed on #Newsnight tonight.

    Will it be that George Osborne follows Hugh Dalton's example of resigning over budget leaks?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .
    Well, given what is in parts of the Koran and the Hadiths - and it may all be taken out of context and misinterpreted, of course - I don't think that you can say that the Koran has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. In the same way that a few verses in Leviticus clearly have something to do with Christianity's traditional view that homosexuality is a sin.

    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    Speedy said:

    It seems we are returning to 19th century finance, when banks not governments issued money:
    http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/248125

    "Citigroup Is Testing Its Own Bitcoin: 'Citicoin' "

    It would be genuinely excellent news if governments left the money business.

    We've given government too much power over the last 100 odd years, and it's time to take it back.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .
    Well, given what is in parts of the Koran and the Hadiths - and it may all be taken out of context and misinterpreted, of course - I don't think that you can say that the Koran has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. In the same way that a few verses in Leviticus clearly have something to do with Christianity's traditional view that homosexuality is a sin.

    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
    Well I just see it differently. I agree with you on most of what you are saying regarding who is to blame etc I just think the motivation behind the terrorism isn't the Koran (even though even the perpetrators may think it is) but the natural ends of introducing conflict
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    edited July 2015
    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .
    Well, given what is in parts of the Koran and the Hadiths - and it may all be taken out of context and misinterpreted, of course - I don't think that you can say that the Koran has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. In the same way that a few verses in Leviticus clearly have something to do with Christianity's traditional view that homosexuality is a sin.

    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
    Well I just see it differently. I agree with you on most of what you are saying regarding who is to blame etc I just think the motivation behind the terrorism isn't the Koran (even though even the perpetrators may think it is) but the natural ends of introducing conflict
    In the end, those who choose to do bad things are responsible. Not the books they read or the religion they follow or the people who teach them. Adults have a choice - a moral choice. Those who choose terrorism have made a choice. Whatever the lesser responsibility of others, nothing should detract from the ultimate responsibility of the man or woman who chooses evil over good.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    The EU is planning to torture journalists even further:

    Tom Nuttall ‏@tom_nuttall 11m11 minutes ago
    Rumours flying of all sorts of summitology - EG phone call tomo, physical EG Fri/Sat, euro summit and poss full EU summit Sunday. #whoknows
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).



    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .
    Well, given what is in parts of the Koran and the Hadiths - and it may all be taken out of context and misinterpreted, of course - I don't think that you can say that the Koran has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. In the same way that a few verses in Leviticus clearly have something to do with Christianity's traditional view that homosexuality is a sin.

    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
    Well I just see it differently. I agree with you on most of what you are saying regarding who is to blame etc I just think the motivation behind the terrorism isn't the Koran (even though even the perpetrators may think it is) but the natural ends of introducing conflict
    In the end, those who choose to do bad things are responsible. Not the books they read or the religion they follow or the people who teach them. Adults have a choice - a moral choice. Those who choose terrorism have made a choice. Whatever the lesser responsibility of others, nothing should detract from the ultimate responsibility of the man or woman who chooses evil over good.

    Well said.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    It seems we are returning to 19th century finance, when banks not governments issued money:
    http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/248125

    "Citigroup Is Testing Its Own Bitcoin: 'Citicoin' "

    It would be genuinely excellent news if governments left the money business.

    We've given government too much power over the last 100 odd years, and it's time to take it back.
    Would you actually accept money issued by lets say RBS ?
    And what if your vendor refuses it and demands money issued only by Barclay's ?
    And what happens to the money issued by the bank if that bank collapses ?

    There were many reasons why banks were not allowed to issue their own money.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There's a very moving prog on More4 The Miracle of Carriage 346 [KX]

    Should be on replay - stunning first person accounts.
    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited July 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Mr. JEO, not watching the news (dislike such events anyway as a rule and not really in the mood for 20 minutes of ritual grief), but it seems cock-eyed from that description. Compare the 'Islamophobic backlash' against the Islamic extremism and it's pretty clear which is worse (or, for that matter, which is actually killing more Muslims).

    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .
    Well, given what is in parts of the Koran and the Hadiths - and it may all be taken out of context and misinterpreted, of course - I don't think that you can say that the Koran has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. In the same way that a few verses in Leviticus clearly have something to do with Christianity's traditional view that homosexuality is a sin.

    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
    Not all Muslims blindly follow the Hadiths... Some (like myself) reject them entirely, they are in the Quranist tradition. Other Muslims practice "Ijtihad" trying to ascertain the meaning of the Quran rather than blindly following some religious scholars who effectively act as an "intermediary" between themselves and God. Some Muslims consider the Bible and Torah to be more relevant to their belief because 95% of the Quran corresponds to them rather than the Hadith which is really just a collection of gossip that was passed down for centuries before it was put in writing (200 years after Muhammad) and scholars tried to separate them into true and untrue... There is a lot of variation within the faith just as there is among Christians and Jews... Some Muslims have much more in common with their fellow monotheists than they do with Takfiris who are like dogs blindly following their fundamentalist masters.

    BTW, Gaddafi for all his buffoonery also was a moderate Muslim who rejected the Hadith although he corrected himself later under pressure from religious scholars and look where Libya is today... Who opened the door to fundamentalism in that country? In my view somebody like McCain is just as much a fundamentalist as Al Baghdadi. They are like two symbiotic parasites that feed off each other.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.

    First generation wanted to be treated equally, 2nd and 3rd seem to want sharia Law

    I would predict by the latter part of this century there will be an official Muslim enclave somewhere in Britain
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    I have heard four IRA bombs go off - the most spectacular being the Bishopsgate bomb, which woke us up after a very heavy night.

    The incident that had the most immediate effect on me was the Hatfield train crash. I had recently met an Australian lass in Edinburgh, and she had come down to stay with me. I had seen her off to Cambridge station that morning, and she was going south to change to an Edinburgh train.

    That lunchtime, I heard of a train crash on the ECML. I tried phoning her, but could get no answer. My colleagues in the cubicle all searched the web for news, and it was a good ten minutes before we discovered the accident was south of where she would have joined the train. But those minutes were hell.

    As it happens she had caught two trains prior to the one that crashed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    Chris123 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:


    .

    Rather the the rest of us. And what we can and should be doing about this.

    It's a question of nd this is what happens and would have happened you care to name

    , I don't think it is fair to blame the Koran any more than out is to blame atheism for Stalins gulags

    .


    And you can certainly blame Communism for Stalin's gulags.

    To deny this is to fly in the face of facts. Facts don't go away, even if they are inconvenient.
    Not all Muslims blindly follow the Hadiths... Some (like myself) reject them entirely, they are in the Quranist tradition. Other Muslims practice "Ijtihad" trying to ascertain the meaning of the Quran rather than blindly following some religious scholars who effectively act as an "intermediary" between themselves and God. Some Muslims consider the Bible and Torah to be more relevant to their belief because 95% of the Quran corresponds to them rather than the Hadith which is really just a collection of gossip that was passed down for centuries before it was put in writing (200 years after Muhammad) and scholars tried to separate them into true and untrue... There is a lot of variation within the faith just as there is among Christians and Jews... Some Muslims have much more in common with their fellow monotheists than they do with Takfiris who are like dogs blindly following their fundamentalist masters.

    BTW, Gaddafi for all his buffoonery also was a moderate Muslim who rejected the Hadith although he corrected himself later under pressure from religious scholars and look where Libya is today... Who opened the door to fundamentalism in that country? In my view somebody like McCain is just as much a fundamentalist as Al Baghdadi. They are like two symbiotic parasites that feed off each other.
    Thank you. Important to know that the Islamist narrative is not the only one in town. Those who shout the loudest may well be the emptiest of vessels.

    Agree that the Libya intervention has turned out to be very ill-judged. Was McCain very much in favour? I thought the US was rather hands off. I'm not sure I agree that he is the same as Al Baghdadi: I don't think McCain has ever advocated stoning or the murder of homosexuals or the rape and enslavement of women.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    I was just pondering how this will play out... To defeat the Nazis we had to kill an enormous amount of Germans who were not Nazis or were only mildly sympathetic/ignorant of the nazi aim

    I can't see us defeating Isis that way, we won't even bang up people who go to Syria for training and come back here, or drape themselves in Isis flags outside parliament

    The problem is the enemy is in our society as well as in the Middle East.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    isam said:

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.

    First generation wanted to be treated equally, 2nd and 3rd seem to want sharia Law

    I would predict by the latter part of this century there will be an official Muslim enclave somewhere in Britain
    Sharia law has been declared to be incompatible with the ECHR. "I want can't have" is a useful guide. Simply make it clear - and take the necessary enforcement action - that there will be no sharia law in this country. If people want to live under such a law they can choose to move to a country where it is the law of the land. In England, English law is the law of the land. Saying and enforcing this should not be beyond the wit of even the most bone-headed Parliamentarian, surely (even if the idiot ex-AoC did not understand the point).

  • isam said:

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    I was just pondering how this will play out... To defeat the Nazis we had to kill an enormous amount of Germans who were not Nazis or were only mildly sympathetic/ignorant of the nazi aim

    I can't see us defeating Isis that way, we won't even bang up people who go to Syria for training and come back here, or drape themselves in Isis flags outside parliament

    The problem is the enemy is in our society as well as in the Middle East.
    The sad truth is that we may have to move to secular schools and ban all religious teaching to the under 18s. The state of Muslim practices seems to demand that. A sad day but better that than a 1984 type of society.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    It only took 8 weeks of the contest, but Liz Kendall has found something she disagrees with the Tories on:

    Liz Kendall ‏@leicesterliz 8h8 hours ago
    The Sunday Trading Act works: retailers can trade, customers can shop, shopworkers can spend time with families. Why change it? @UsdawUnion
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.

    You can never eliminate evil. But you can try and make it harder and harder for people to choose to do it. You can stop creating - whether actively or through negligence - the conditions in which it can flourish. You can confront it.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    Is your flameproof coat IS, suppose I need to explain (intrinsically safe).

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690
    Danny565 said:

    It only took 8 weeks of the contest, but Liz Kendall has found something she disagrees with the Tories on:

    Liz Kendall ‏@leicesterliz 8h8 hours ago
    The Sunday Trading Act works: retailers can trade, customers can shop, shopworkers can spend time with families. Why change it? @UsdawUnion

    Funny how Scotland is able to operate perfectly well without the Sunday Trading Act.Indeed it is one part of Scottish law that we could do well to adopt in England as they have the 2003 Sunday Working Act which prevents workers being compelled to work on Sunday and which seems to satisfy everyone except the religious fanatics.
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited July 2015
    I'm not sure I agree that he is the same as Al Baghdadi: I don't think McCain has ever advocated stoning or the murder of homosexuals or the rape and enslavement of women.
    No - in that way McCain is not a fundamentalist. But in other ways he is (and others are). The very concept of "American exceptionalism" is fundamentalist... This myopic thinking that everything the US does is good, everything that others ("perceived enemies") do is bad/ evil... Look at the US today, in Washington you have a museum dedicated to the Shoah - the genocide of the Jews in Europe - nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, there is no museum dedicated to the genocide of American Indians - much closer to home. Why? Because of the fundamentalism that is at the core of the idea of "American exceptionalism."
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690



    The sad truth is that we may have to move to secular schools and ban all religious teaching to the under 18s. The state of Muslim practices seems to demand that. A sad day but better that than a 1984 type of society.

    I am an atheist but even I can see that banning all religious education to under 18s is a complete over reaction. Would you prevent Catholic children from taking First Communion? Or CofE children from attending Sunday School? What about Bar Mitzvahs?

    Changing the rules to disrupt the lives of millions of non extremist believers is exactly the sort of over reaction the extremists want.
  • To be honest I think the chances of a conservative majority are very high. Out of the 4 candidates I think only Liz Kendall stands a chance of defeating the Conservatives whereas Corbyn and Burnham would almost certainly lose. I think Yvette might get it to a hung parliament but I can't see her doing much better than that.

    We have to remember that Labour will be facing some of the challenges as the last election; The SNP question and the competence question.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    jayfdee said:

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    Is your flameproof coat IS, suppose I need to explain (intrinsically safe).

    The question should be whether my balaclava is (see piccie).

    As an aside, I've recently learnt that fabric softener can make washing less flame retardant.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    7/7 still gives me nightmares,as does 9/11. I heard both events coming through live at work.
    7/7 was initially being reported as an electrical power surge. I was staggered to see the power of home made explosives,even now we have very limited defence against a tube attack.
    I do of course still use the tubes, and fly, so no win for the terrorists.I was in London the day after the attacks, and it was very sombre, and moving.

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    No need JJ. You are absolutely right.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    Chris123 said:

    I'm not sure I agree that he is the same as Al Baghdadi: I don't think McCain has ever advocated stoning or the murder of homosexuals or the rape and enslavement of women.
    No - in that way McCain is not a fundamentalist. But in other ways he is. The very concept of "American exceptionalism" is fundamentalist... This myopic thinking that everything the US does is good, everything that others ("perceived enemies") do is bad... Look at the US today, in Washington you have a museum dedicated to the Shoah - the genocide of the Jews in Europe - nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, there is no museum dedicated to the genocide of American Indians - much closer to home. Why? Because of the fundamentalism that is at the core of the idea of "American exceptionalism."


    Thanks. I think all countries have a sort of exceptionalist view about themselves, to a greater or lesser extent. Think about La Gloire and France, for instance.

    And all of them turn a blind eye to bits of their own history which don't match the myth, sometimes a necessary myth.

    Still, I don't think McCain is to blame. The idea of American exceptionalism, of America as a "shining city on a hill" came from the original Puritan settlers back in the 17th century.


  • The sad truth is that we may have to move to secular schools and ban all religious teaching to the under 18s. The state of Muslim practices seems to demand that. A sad day but better that than a 1984 type of society.

    I am an atheist but even I can see that banning all religious education to under 18s is a complete over reaction. Would you prevent Catholic children from taking First Communion? Or CofE children from attending Sunday School? What about Bar Mitzvahs?

    Changing the rules to disrupt the lives of millions of non extremist believers is exactly the sort of over reaction the extremists want.
    We cannot just ban the teaching of Islam here. Therefore all religions have to be treated equally.

    Mind you stopping CofE teaching may stem socialisms last refuge (a joke).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591


    We have to remember that Labour will be facing some of the challenges as the last election; The SNP question and the competence question.

    That's true, and recognising I made the mistake of overestimating Labour (and the LDs) and underestimating the Tories this time around, but surely those challenges will have been softened somewhat? Surely? The SNP cannot retain such momentum forevermore, even if Labour are not going to reverse even large numbers of those SNP gains, and after 10 years in power with a new Tory PM who probably won't be as popular (or, and I think this is one of his strengths, unthreatening) as Cameron, and with the memory of Labour's economic failings no longer as vivid, they surely must have a decent chance?

    It does make me wonder how Tories in 2005 and Labour supporters in 1992 felt - losing three elections or more has to be really rough, to recognise even if the opposition are not great you failed to beat them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690



    The sad truth is that we may have to move to secular schools and ban all religious teaching to the under 18s. The state of Muslim practices seems to demand that. A sad day but better that than a 1984 type of society.

    I am an atheist but even I can see that banning all religious education to under 18s is a complete over reaction. Would you prevent Catholic children from taking First Communion? Or CofE children from attending Sunday School? What about Bar Mitzvahs?

    Changing the rules to disrupt the lives of millions of non extremist believers is exactly the sort of over reaction the extremists want.
    We cannot just ban the teaching of Islam here. Therefore all religions have to be treated equally.

    Mind you stopping CofE teaching may stem socialisms last refuge (a joke).
    We should not be banning any of it. Banning stuff is exactly the reaction the extremists want and we should not be provoked into changing our beliefs and way of life to counter them.

    First Communion and Bar Mitzvahs are a fundamental part of two major religions in the UK and they do no harm (putting aside my own antipathetical view of religions as a whole for a moment). To ban them is counter to everything we are supposed to believe in in this country.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    isam said:

    I was just pondering how this will play out... To defeat the Nazis we had to kill an enormous amount of Germans who were not Nazis or were only mildly sympathetic/ignorant of the nazi aim

    I can't see us defeating Isis that way, we won't even bang up people who go to Syria for training and come back here, or drape themselves in Isis flags outside parliament

    The problem is the enemy is in our society as well as in the Middle East.

    There will always be people who will commit atrocities against a society: people who have been placed, or think they have been placed, outside, and strike against the system. I'd say the neo-Nazi Soho bomber was an example.

    What we have to do is say: these are our beliefs. We are tolerant, but if your beliefs go against our fundamental beliefs, then perhaps you would be best living elsewhere. Unfortunately we have, in my mind at least, gone too far in placating people whose beliefs conflict with ours. The cartoons being a classic example.

    There are things we can do: whilst improving the life of the poor and/or immigrants will give some in those communities less reason to feel aggrieved, we will never get rid of the lone nutters rallying for a cause.

    I think the recent horrific murders in Tunisia were done by an engineering student, and some of the 9/11 terrorists were similarly trained. Sadly it isn't even about intelligence.

    Basically: we will never get rid of terrorism, sadly. We can try to stop the cancer becoming fatal.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    jayfdee said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    .

    I was in a train heading for the City that day and was turfed out when the authorities realised what had happened. My husband had gone in early and could not be contacted. At one point there were rumours of more bombs and that some had gone off where he was headed before leaving to see a client outside London. It was not until late afternoon that I managed to speak to him. He had to spend the night with the client because there was no possibility of coming back. I remember walking home from the City through the drizzle and the panic of not knowing what had happened to him.

    I remember that it was my daughter's end of term day and hugging her and my other children very tightly when I got home.

    And I remember learning in the following days that one of the victims was a young trainee hairdresser at my mother's hairdresser, Sanrizz, and her saying how sad it was to see an In Memoriam poster: a young man like many others just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time because worthless scum chose evil.
    "Because worthless scum chose evil"
    We all have a memory and a tale to tell,and the quote is accurate, but how do we stop it, I have no idea or suggestions.
    This will be unpopular amongst some, but to some extent we need to roll with the blows. If we believe our system is better, that our way of life is superior for everyone, then we should not move an inch to their level.

    We survived the Blitz. Terrorist outrages are hideous, and the deaths lamented. But the easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we descend to their level.

    (dons flameproof coat).
    We've been bombed by better bastards than Islamists. We survived the Blitz and the IRA and others and we'll survive this lot too.

    But.

    The easiest way for them to destroy us as a society is if we let them destroy our society. And the way to do that is to allow those who would limit what we can say to do so, to allow those who want separate enclaves subject to different laws to create them, to allow those who want to be treated as "community leaders" to be treated as such, to allow those who want to limit what their daughters can do and be to have such control etc. That is how a society gets undermined - not by bombs - but by an insidious undermining of our laws and values and ideas for some of our citizens so that there are communities who are here physically but in all important respects are not part of British society and are living according to norms and values so different, so incompatible that it is like having drops of oil in water.

  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    As we’re reflecting on GE2015, turning to Scotland where the pollsters had the SNP leading SLAB by 20 – 25% for the 6 months leading up to the election and most were pretty close to the actual result. It was the bookies who were slow to wake up to the reality of SLAB's likely annihilation in Scotland. I did a piece for WOS which touches on some of the underlying reasons

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/making-lemonade/#more-72698

    Most of the political commentators were also wrong footed in Scotland, the Guardian’s Kevin McKenna was one of the few who understood what was happening in Scotland from the outset of the GE2015 campaign. I think the commentators fell into the trap of listening to each other and party strategists and failing to engage with voters at a grassroots level.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @iankatz1000: Breaking....@BBCAllegra reveals chancellor will tomorrow remove tax credits for more than two children saving £1.4bn http://t.co/0G0iBjUDnH
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited July 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    Chris123 said:

    I'm not sure I agree that he is the same as Al Baghdadi: I don't think McCain has ever advocated stoning or the murder of homosexuals or the rape and enslavement of women.
    No - in that way McCain is not a fundamentalist. But in other ways he is. The very concept of "American exceptionalism" is fundamentalist... This myopic thinking that everything the US does is good, everything that others ("perceived enemies") do is bad... Look at the US today, in Washington you have a museum dedicated to the Shoah - the genocide of the Jews in Europe - nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, there is no museum dedicated to the genocide of American Indians - much closer to home. Why? Because of the fundamentalism that is at the core of the idea of "American exceptionalism."
    Thanks. I think all countries have a sort of exceptionalist view about themselves, to a greater or lesser extent. Think about La Gloire and France, for instance.

    And all of them turn a blind eye to bits of their own history which don't match the myth, sometimes a necessary myth.

    Still, I don't think McCain is to blame. The idea of American exceptionalism, of America as a "shining city on a hill" came from the original Puritan settlers back in the 17th century.

    For sure. Every nation/ group is an "invention" predicated on "myths"... Some are more flexible in their mindset and tolerant than others... I think the most deluded are those that believe themselves to be completely "free" but are most constrained in their thinking... To return to Islam - Muhammad was a statesman, a social reformer, a businessman, a general and a prophet... Baghdadi is an intellectual worm that slinks in the mud of false Hadiths surrounded by zombies.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Breaking....@BBCAllegra reveals chancellor will tomorrow remove tax credits for more than two children saving £1.4bn http://t.co/0G0iBjUDnH

    If this is the scoop I'm underwhelmed.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Breaking....@BBCAllegra reveals chancellor will tomorrow remove tax credits for more than two children saving £1.4bn http://t.co/0G0iBjUDnH

    If this is the scoop I'm underwhelmed.
    Thats not wowser
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045
    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Breaking....@BBCAllegra reveals chancellor will tomorrow remove tax credits for more than two children saving £1.4bn http://t.co/0G0iBjUDnH

    I assume this will be staggered, and current recipients won't loose it?


    Ah, should have clicked the link!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328



    The sad truth is that we may have to move to secular schools and ban all religious teaching to the under 18s. The state of Muslim practices seems to demand that. A sad day but better that than a 1984 type of society.

    I am an atheist but even I can see that banning all religious education to under 18s is a complete over reaction. Would you prevent Catholic children from taking First Communion? Or CofE children from attending Sunday School? What about Bar Mitzvahs?

    Changing the rules to disrupt the lives of millions of non extremist believers is exactly the sort of over reaction the extremists want.
    We cannot just ban the teaching of Islam here. Therefore all religions have to be treated equally.

    I'm with Richard Tyndall on this. You can't ban religions.

    But your second sentence does not logically follow from the first. Where you have A, B and C (items in the same category e.g. food) and C is harmful but A and B are not, a sensible risk assessment would be to get rid of C and leave A and B alone. It is one of the more foolish delusions of our age to elevate non-discrimination as the most important value, especially when discrimination is on the basis of relevant matters and necessary.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    The chance of being caught up in a terrorist incident are incredibly slim - not that that's any consolation to those who are. Ultimately it's very difficult to tackle without potentially making the situation worse.

    At least in WW2 the enemy was 'over there' and it was agreed (eventually) that something had to be done. Perhaps we should be viewing IS similarly, but as long as we think there is a sufficient buffer between us and them it's unlikely that we'll do anything of consequence.

    I think it's why the Med migrant crisis is potentially catastrophic for any incumbent government. An attack committed by someone born here is one thing; an attack carried out by someone allowed to enter the country from overseas is quite another.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    I only want one thing to come out of today. I don't want people to dwell on 10 years of people coping with loss, of broken bodies and broken lives. Or even of extraordinary selflessness, of heroism beyond the call. We should celebrate that every day.

    What I would like to come out of today is acceptance that four selfish goons have just spent ten years dead. Not in the company of their allotted virgins. But if their religion has any purpose, then in agonising torment. The first ten years of an eternity of such torment.

    And for today to have any meaning, I would want that to be spelt out in every mosque in Friday prayers.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ok, if the budget doesn't piss enough people off...

    @JGForsyth: How Cameron intends to ease the hunting ban by @melissakite1 http://t.co/1qSdX4Xyar
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I only want one thing to come out of today. I don't want people to dwell on 10 years of people coping with loss, of broken bodies and broken lives. Or even of extraordinary selflessness, of heroism beyond the call. We should celebrate that every day.

    What I would like to come out of today is acceptance that four selfish goons have just spent ten years dead. Not in the company of their allotted virgins. But if their religion has any purpose, then in agonising torment. The first ten years of an eternity of such torment.

    And for today to have any meaning, I would want that to be spelt out in every mosque in Friday prayers.

    +1
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I only want one thing to come out of today. I don't want people to dwell on 10 years of people coping with loss, of broken bodies and broken lives. Or even of extraordinary selflessness, of heroism beyond the call. We should celebrate that every day.

    What I would like to come out of today is acceptance that four selfish goons have just spent ten years dead. Not in the company of their allotted virgins. But if their religion has any purpose, then in agonising torment. The first ten years of an eternity of such torment.

    And for today to have any meaning, I would want that to be spelt out in every mosque in Friday prayers.

    Don't hold your breath

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/muslim-leader-isis-supporting-brits-disenfranchised-6018357
This discussion has been closed.