On monday the Greeks will be drawing even more deposits out of the greek banks.
Until now the European Central Bank has been making good the shortfall but given the Greek referendum might reject the final creditors terms, the ECB should stop lending more money to the Greek banks who will go bust if Greece withdraws from the Euro.
So the Greek banks will go bust on Monday and the referendum will be irrelevant.
There has to be a real chance that the answer to that may come this afternoon. The logical response for the Finance Ministers is to say no and for the ECB to withdraw funding support. That means most Greek banks will not open again. I think that is where we are. The Greeks have massively overplayed a very weak hand.
But outside school gates Shia parents waiting for their children are worried. A seven-year-old returned home complaining that classmates had threatened to “slaughter you when you grow up”.
Massive step into the unknown. Not sure where we go from here. I still think there will be a fudge at 11.59pm on Sunday, but this is still a big move by the EU.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
Thats absurd. There is no democratic right to spend someone else's money.
On the topic, shouldn't the referendum have 3 options? There should be stay in on current terms, stay in on Cameron's proposed renegotiated terms, or get out altogether.
I for one would switch from leaning In to leaning Out, if the only way of staying in meant employment' protections were negotiated away, for example.
That would be irrational. If we left you'd need to rely on the UK government to implement those employment protections, the same as if Cameron negotiated them away.
Yes, but the point is that for me, the employment protections are one of the benefits of the EU which makes it worth stomaching the drawbacks (uncontrolled immigration, endless money wasted on super-bureaucracy, stitch-ups for undeserving greedy big businesses which crowd out more ethical businesses).
If one of the few benefits goes then I won't see much point putting up with the disadvantages anymore.
You mean things like the WTD, which individuals can opt out of anyway? What a strange reason for wanting to be in what is effectively a customs union trying, and failing, to turn itself into an economic-union....
WTD stands for the working time directive which says you should not work more than 48 hours a week over a prolonged period.
Whilst I and my staff signed a waiver to say we did not wish the directive to apply to us, the company had no power to make us sign. We just didn't want such a restriction to stop us getting our well paid jobs done.
What is need is that the Working Time Directive is abolished because it is a barrier to achieving results.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
Thats absurd. There is no democratic right to spend someone else's money.
There surely is when you're part of the same currency?
There's a legitimate argument for the Germans not to feel they have a responsibility to support other countries when they're in difficulties, but if that's how they feel they should never have created the Euro in the first place (or never admitted Greece to the Euro). But the Germans and the Eurocrats seem to feel they should get all the benefits of the Euro but none of the responsibilites.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
Thats absurd. There is no democratic right to spend someone else's money.
Democracies, especially socialist one's, do little else than spend other people's money!
Ed Conway @EdConwaySky As far as I know, this is the first time a euro member has been effectively ejected from key discussions #Greece
Wonder if it's lawful. It's a shame that the ECJ is a political court, and won't find it unlawful even if it is The EU also wanted to externally apply capital controls to Greece which is expressly against treaty rights, let's see what happens.
Richard Smith @richsmithV Driver fined for Calais stowaways: "£2K is a big chunk of money for us for something desperately wrong with the system and not our fault."
The most worrying thing about all of this is its starting to look all very like Lehman's, where the US having saved Bear Stearns and Goldman's, decided to let LEH go to the wall to prove nobody was to big to fail. Even now 7 years on we're still sorting through the systemic mess, I'm sure the US would have saved LEH if they could go back in time.
Hopefully common sense will prevail before the Asian markets open tomorrow evening. However, at the moment all parties seem to be choosing brinkmanship, sadly their all standing at different brinks. Its like watching a slow motion train wreck.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
Thats absurd. There is no democratic right to spend someone else's money.
There surely is when you're part of the same currency?
There's a legitimate argument for the Germans not to feel they have a responsibility to support other countries when they're in difficulties, but if that's how they feel they should never have created the Euro in the first place (or never admitted Greece to the Euro). But the Germans and the Eurocrats seem to feel they should get all the benefits of the Euro but none of the responsibilites.
I do not think that is correct. Being a member of the Eurogroup requires playing by the Eurogroup rules and not spending beyond agreed limits. that's a key reason why the UK never joined. What the euro needs is far greater central control of finances ie ever-closer union. No point in being in the euro if this is not accepted.
Gergely Polner @eurocrat Total breakdown of trust: President of #Eurogroup says Greek government isn't trusted to implement a Yes vote pic.twitter.com/pjdhN2pRGR #grexitG
I am watching Dateline London - one of the panel is Yasmin Alibi Brown (sp).
I have seen her on several discussion programs, and it's always the same - she tries to butt in on everyone else's comments, gets upset when anyone interrupts her and makes comments like "May I finish please?" or "I have a story to tell which is important" (which it never is) and generally has little or no constructive comment to make, other than being to the left of everyone on everything.
The bottom and rather simplistic line is that the Greeks wanted to borrow another £6bn to pay back £1.5bn under threat of defaulting. It really was a ridiculous position.
The scale of support of the ECB has been massive. As an institution they would probably end up writing off something in excess of £150bn as a result of this. That is the money of other countries taxpayers. Enough is enough.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
The vote, instead of being a confidence referendum, will probably now turn into a general election.
Quite. Another disgraceful attempt by the EU power brokers to bring down a lawful e!ected government. How we can stomach being part of this illiberal and undemocratic organisation is beyond me.
Thats absurd. There is no democratic right to spend someone else's money.
There surely is when you're part of the same currency?
There's a legitimate argument for the Germans not to feel they have a responsibility to support other countries when they're in difficulties, but if that's how they feel they should never have created the Euro in the first place (or never admitted Greece to the Euro). But the Germans and the Eurocrats seem to feel they should get all the benefits of the Euro but none of the responsibilites.
I do not think that is correct. Being a member of the Eurogroup requires playing by the Eurogroup rules and not spending beyond agreed limits. that's a key reason why the UK never joined. What the euro needs is far greater central control of finances ie ever-closer union. No point in being in the euro if this is not accepted.
As the Greeks rightly observed, "if someone is borrowing too much, then someone is lending too much". The French and German banks made some idiotic decisions to lend money to a country that patently wasn't able to pay its bills, and then got the ECB and the IMF to come and bail Greece out just enough that it could pay its bills, but not actually enough for its economy to get any better. This is massive moral hazard, the EU taxpayer is on the hook for bailing out unwise commercial decisions by private banks.
I am watching Dateline London - one of the panel is Yasmin Alibi Brown (sp).
I have seen her on several discussion programs, and it's always the same - she tries to butt in on everyone else's comments, gets upset when anyone interrupts her and makes comments like "May I finish please?" or "I have a story to tell which is important" (which it never is) and generally has little or no constructive comment to make, other than being to the left of everyone on everything.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
As I've said on here before, I am lucky in that I can get dvds sent airmail here for less than the list price in the UK. Interestingly this does not apply to books, which have much higher shipping charges
I ordered Wolf Hall the other day (they have it here too but I didn't want the masterpiece top and tail) and amazon.co.uk charged me $2.08 for shipping on a 3 dvd package.
With the Patrick Macnee news, I ordered the 50th anniversary set of The Avengers. For this, a 39 dvd set, the shipping was just over $3. My working assumption is that The Avengers might take longer to arrive than Wolf Hall...
The Avengers set is available here on amazon but is over twice the price.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
Putin is saviour?
No idea. But its definitely the case that T & V wanted to leave the Euro until quite close to the last Greek elections, and ditched that policy when they saw it was playing badly at home, which probably helped ease SYRIZA into power. I have been convinced for a while that they were looking for a way to get Greece out of the Euro, but not have to carry the can with the Greek people, and now the Eurogroup have handed it to them on a plate, its going to be trivial to spin this as being picked on by the French and the Germans in their local press.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
I've not being following the Greek debacle closely, but it was my impression that the IMF wanted some debt forgiveness but the EU/ECB wouldn't consider it - is that in fact the case?
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
No its not. The ECB has bent over backwards to avoid pulling funding on Greece and really ought to have done a long time ago. If they do it will be the sole responsibility of Greece and Greece alone for the fact they've ran out of money, ran out of creditors and ran out of anyone willing to lend to them.
If they weren't so incompetent they could borrow off the market. But nobody is willing to lend to them. This is the problem with socialists, Greece has ran out of other people's money to spend.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
Putin is saviour?
Preposterous. Putin's pockets pretty penurious.
Wonder if he feels like selling of his almost 1300 TONNES of Gold reserves
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
No its not. The ECB has bent over backwards to avoid pulling funding on Greece and really ought to have done a long time ago. If they do it will be the sole responsibility of Greece and Greece alone for the fact they've ran out of money, ran out of creditors and ran out of anyone willing to lend to them.
If they weren't so incompetent they could borrow off the market. But nobody is willing to lend to them. This is the problem with socialists, Greece has ran out of other people's money to spend.
Truth is perception, who are the Greece people most likely to believe, and who is going to have 90% of the ear of the Greek press.
Even then, the ECB was not acting out of altruism for Greece, it was acting out of concern for French and German banks, the Greeks have effectively kept none of the bailout money and just passed it on to their credits, whilst keeping the debt. It was a nakedly political act to keep banks from going bust. The IMF even more so should under its own rules not have gone anywhere near Greece, since it is not supposed to lend to insolvent countries (especially ones which are incapable of devaluing their currency)
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
I've not being following the Greek debacle closely, but it was my impression that the IMF wanted some debt forgiveness but the EU/ECB wouldn't consider it - is that in fact the case?
My limited understanding (reporting of the crisis has been pretty poor) is that the IMF have made clear that the debt pile is unsustainable and restructuring is needed, but there's been no movement from the European side. Having said that, I don't think they believe the situation could continue indefinitely without doing something about the debt - just that they regarded the debt issue as a separate one from the bailout/reforms issue, and resisted Greek attempts to couple the issues together. (If you agree to cut the debt and the Greeks promise to make changes X, Y and Z in return, there's the chance that this Greek government or whoever comes after it - changes in government being unpredictable and not exactly uncommon - might not implement X, Y or Z fully or even reverse previous implementation. And if that happens you can't just reinstate the debt. So reluctance to use the debt as a bargaining chip in the negotiations is understandable. But also understandable for the Greeks to be wary whether their partners would ever have the mood or stomach to consider some eventual forgiveness. And without the prospect of that in the future, then what's the point of making all these sacrifices?)
On the topic, shouldn't the referendum have 3 options? There should be stay in on current terms, stay in on Cameron's proposed renegotiated terms, or get out altogether.
I for one would switch from leaning In to leaning Out, if the only way of staying in meant employment' protections were negotiated away, for example.
That would be irrational. If we left you'd need to rely on the UK government to implement those employment protections, the same as if Cameron negotiated them away.
Yes, but the point is that for me, the employment protections are one of the benefits of the EU which makes it worth stomaching the drawbacks (uncontrolled immigration, endless money wasted on super-bureaucracy, stitch-ups for undeserving greedy big businesses which crowd out more ethical businesses).
If one of the few benefits goes then I won't see much point putting up with the disadvantages anymore.
You mean things like the WTD, which individuals can opt out of anyway? What a strange reason for wanting to be in what is effectively a customs union trying, and failing, to turn itself into an economic-union....
WTD stands for the working time directive which says you should not work more than 48 hours a week over a prolonged period.
Whilst I and my staff signed a waiver to say we did not wish the directive to apply to us, the company had no power to make us sign. We just didn't want such a restriction to stop us getting our well paid jobs done.
What is need is that the Working Time Directive is abolished because it is a barrier to achieving results.
I do sometimes wonder about this.
Is our fascination for long hours and cheap labour the root cause of our productivity problem.
While some of the WTD elements are a pain to manage they do stretch management in other ways and force them to seek the best out of the labour they have, hence higher productivity.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
Putin is saviour?
Preposterous. Putin's pockets pretty penurious.
Wonder if he feels like selling of his almost 1300 TONNES of Gold reserves
In many ways, Russia is a bounteous and wealthy country. Imagine what, in principle, all their mineral and oil reserves are worth...
But there's a difference between a stock and a flow, and the current economics situation is not healthy at the moment. Neither are the government coffers overflowing.
On the topic, shouldn't the referendum have 3 options? There should be stay in on current terms, stay in on Cameron's proposed renegotiated terms, or get out altogether.
I for one would switch from leaning In to leaning Out, if the only way of staying in meant employment' protections were negotiated away, for example.
That would be irrational. If we left you'd need to rely on the UK government to implement those employment protections, the same as if Cameron negotiated them away.
Yes, but the point is that for me, the employment protections are one of the benefits of the EU which makes it worth stomaching the drawbacks (uncontrolled immigration, endless money wasted on super-bureaucracy, stitch-ups for undeserving greedy big businesses which crowd out more ethical businesses).
If one of the few benefits goes then I won't see much point putting up with the disadvantages anymore.
You mean things like the WTD, which individuals can opt out of anyway? What a strange reason for wanting to be in what is effectively a customs union trying, and failing, to turn itself into an economic-union....
WTD stands for the working time directive which says you should not work more than 48 hours a week over a prolonged period.
Whilst I and my staff signed a waiver to say we did not wish the directive to apply to us, the company had no power to make us sign. We just didn't want such a restriction to stop us getting our well paid jobs done.
What is need is that the Working Time Directive is abolished because it is a barrier to achieving results.
I do sometimes wonder about this.
Is our fascination for long hours and cheap labour the root cause of our productivity problem.
While some of the WTD elements are a pain to manage they do stretch management in other ways and force them to seek the best out of the labour they have, hence higher productivity.
Does it not prompt management in all but the most skilled jobs to replace one moderately expensive person with two cheap people, or to just outsource it to a country that doesn't care.
I've just heard from my contact on the German negotiating team. They are not shocked that Tsipiras called a referendum; what they are shocked at is that:
1. He is describing a proposal that is 99% identical to the one that was sent by Greece to the troika last Sunday as a 'humiliation'.
2. He is attempting to use the threat of a referendum to try and wring extra concessions.
3. He had indicated that, while he was personally in favour of the proposal, he needed to get the agreement of the Greek people.
@Indigo might very well be right that he is trying to force the ECB to force Grexit ("it's not my fault!")
How many "community leaders" were consulted about this decision.
It's a form of self-censorship on our part. Just as not talking frankly about Islam or drawing Mohammed is self-censorship. And it's done out of fear of violence. It is sheer blackmail by those whose default response is either violence by themselves or by others who are excused the requirements of civilised behaviour.
It is pathetic. It is intolerable. It has to stop.
To be serious I heard Varoufakis a few minutes ago and I think the Greek govt is running scared and may yet cave.
They already have - hence the referendum. It gives the Greek go'vt all the political cover it needs, whatever the result.
Its even better than that, if the ECB pulls funding and Greece implodes before the referendum then its trivial to paint it as the fault of the Eurogroup kicking sand in the face of democracy, especially to a furious Greek public who already a prepared to believe the worse about the EU leadership, and especially Germany. Greece will leave the Euro and it will be someone else's fault, which is what Tsipras and Varoufakis always wanted.
Putin is saviour?
Preposterous. Putin's pockets pretty penurious.
Wonder if he feels like selling of his almost 1300 TONNES of Gold reserves
As an aside, that's only $48bn worth of gold. That's would only pay off 12% of Venezuela's government debt...
If Tunisia is closing mosques which have incited extremism then I see no good reason why we should not do the same. Mosques which incite extremism are not religious places of worship. They should be treated no differently than a back room full of IRA commanders.
How many "community leaders" were consulted about this decision.
It's a form of self-censorship on our part. Just as not talking frankly about Islam or drawing Mohammed is self-censorship. And it's done out of fear of violence. It is sheer blackmail by those whose default response is either violence by themselves or by others who are excused the requirements of civilised behaviour.
It is pathetic. It is intolerable. It has to stop.
No. It is not done by "ourselves". It is done by those of a very Fabian Socialist frame of mind, who believe that the public need to be protected from thinking, or doing anything themselves. They seem the "proles" as a restless, dangerous mob, x seconds away from horrific behavior. Who need to be sternly ruled by noble, wise, well intentioned Philosopher Kings/Queens.
Within the last 6 months, the only two Greek people known to me have left their (professional) jobs & gone home. No idea what their reasons were and not second-guessing.
But it made me wonder whether, from the purely financial point of view, would it make sense to stay outside Greece and be earning non-Greek money? Or would a risk of leaving the EU be enough to make people feel uneasy about being away from home?
In case there was any doubt that Burnham's a complete dickhead.
Soundly right-wing Casino Royale has (in the distant past) kissed several red-in-tooth-and-claw left-wing girls. The political polarisation gave it a certain "edge" and made it rather fun, and I never took it that seriously, although one or two were irritated by it.
Incidentally, I find such "look at me" values-signalling childish and narcissistic. Currently, my Facebook feed is flooded with friends profile pictures who've "rainbowed" themselves using the latest Zuckerberg pride add-on.
It's reached a tipping point now where virtually everyone feels they should be doing it, lest they look bigoted by not having it.
Within the last 6 months, the only two Greek people known to me have left their (professional) jobs & gone home. No idea what their reasons were and not second-guessing.
But it made me wonder whether, from the purely financial point of view, would it make sense to stay outside Greece and be earning non-Greek money? Or would a risk of leaving the EU be enough to make people feel uneasy about being away from home?
I think it would all depend on whether you had emigrated permanently from Greece or had just gone abroad for a while to earn some wonder wallet filler, and intended to return eventually.
How many "community leaders" were consulted about this decision.
It's a form of self-censorship on our part. Just as not talking frankly about Islam or drawing Mohammed is self-censorship. And it's done out of fear of violence. It is sheer blackmail by those whose default response is either violence by themselves or by others who are excused the requirements of civilised behaviour.
It is pathetic. It is intolerable. It has to stop.
No. It is not done by "ourselves". It is done by those of a very Fabian Socialist frame of mind, who believe that the public need to be protected from thinking, or doing anything themselves. They seem the "proles" as a restless, dangerous mob, x seconds away from horrific behavior. Who need to be sternly ruled by noble, wise, well intentioned Philosopher Kings/Queens.
I certainly have not censored myself. If anything, quite the opposite. And I dare say you haven't. But an awful lot of people have - even without realising it, even those who are not Fabians. Look at the reaction to the Hebdo murders - once the initial shock had worn off: all those "I believe in free speech but...." arguments which effectively conceded the very point the killers wanted to achieve.
The people you describe self-censor. But many others who don't fall within this description are self-censoring because they are afraid and because the British state seems unwilling to stand up to bullies.
I've just heard from my contact on the German negotiating team. They are not shocked that Tsipiras called a referendum; what they are shocked at is that:
1. He is describing a proposal that is 99% identical to the one that was sent by Greece to the troika last Sunday as a 'humiliation'.
2. He is attempting to use the threat of a referendum to try and wring extra concessions.
3. He had indicated that, while he was personally in favour of the proposal, he needed to get the agreement of the Greek people.
@Indigo might very well be right that he is trying to force the ECB to force Grexit ("it's not my fault!")
Aiui the Eurogroup had reconciled themselves to a referendum but it would be one in which the government would urge a "yes" vote. Tsipras telling the people to vote "no" really seems to have caught them by complete surprise.
Unbelievable. Never did I think I would feel sympathy for EU technocrats but these two idiots are such bad politicians they have managed it.
How many "community leaders" were consulted about this decision.
It's a form of self-censorship on our part. Just as not talking frankly about Islam or drawing Mohammed is self-censorship. And it's done out of fear of violence. It is sheer blackmail by those whose default response is either violence by themselves or by others who are excused the requirements of civilised behaviour.
It is pathetic. It is intolerable. It has to stop.
No. It is not done by "ourselves". It is done by those of a very Fabian Socialist frame of mind, who believe that the public need to be protected from thinking, or doing anything themselves. They seem the "proles" as a restless, dangerous mob, x seconds away from horrific behavior. Who need to be sternly ruled by noble, wise, well intentioned Philosopher Kings/Queens.
I certainly have not censored myself. If anything, quite the opposite. And I dare say you haven't. But an awful lot of people have - even without realising it, even those who are not Fabians. Look at the reaction to the Hebdo murders - once the initial shock had worn off: all those "I believe in free speech but...." arguments which effectively conceded the very point the killers wanted to achieve.
The people you describe self-censor. But many others who don't fall within this description are self-censoring because they are afraid and because the British state seems unwilling to stand up to bullies.
The people in question think that James Burnham's The Managerial Revolution was an instruction manual. That they will manage the world towards Utopia. Add some cultural relativism (aka cultural racism) into the mix and there you have it.
The irony is the reality of what they do is literally appeasement, in the Neville Chamber;in sense of the word
In case there was any doubt that Burnham's a complete dickhead.
Soundly right-wing Casino Royale has (in the distant past) kissed several red-in-tooth-and-claw left-wing girls. The political polarisation gave it a certain "edge" and made it rather fun, and I never took it that seriously, although one or two were irritated by it.
Incidentally, I find such "look at me" values-signalling childish and narcissistic. Currently, my Facebook feed is flooded with friends profile pictures who've "rainbowed" themselves using the latest Zuckerberg pride add-on.
It's reached a tipping point now where virtually everyone feels they should be doing it, lest they look bigoted by not having it.
I've done it, its a bit of fun - no more no less. I don't take anything that happens on Facebook too seriously, there's always some form of "meme of the week" going around. Today its rainbow profiles, a while back it was the Ice Bucket Challenge, while in-between its crap about Candy Crush or Farmville.
I don't think any more or less about anyone taking part or not taking part in whatever this weeks meme is. Anyone who does them all is a Lemming.
I fear that the Daily Mail and SLAB have fallen into Sturgeon's bear trap. I'm sure the SNP being the most social media savvy party will have gathered large dossiers of Cyberunionist abuse of SNP MPs, which will be appropriately redacted to avoid falling foul of the DP Act and ready to be drip-fed to the MSM.
Not enough space on the internet for the unionist abuse , it si a real laugh that labour have got some guff on 46 people and are trying to point it at SNP, yet you could fill the British Library with their supporters bile.
The authorities do that because they know that the situation is completely out of control and it's the the only way to keep the lid on and pretend the multi cultural experiment is still working.
In case there was any doubt that Burnham's a complete dickhead.
Soundly right-wing Casino Royale has (in the distant past) kissed several red-in-tooth-and-claw left-wing girls. The political polarisation gave it a certain "edge" and made it rather fun, and I never took it that seriously, although one or two were irritated by it.
Incidentally, I find such "look at me" values-signalling childish and narcissistic. Currently, my Facebook feed is flooded with friends profile pictures who've "rainbowed" themselves using the latest Zuckerberg pride add-on.
It's reached a tipping point now where virtually everyone feels they should be doing it, lest they look bigoted by not having it.
I've done it, its a bit of fun - no more no less. I don't take anything that happens on Facebook too seriously, there's always some form of "meme of the week" going around. Today its rainbow profiles, a while back it was the Ice Bucket Challenge, while in-between its crap about Candy Crush or Farmville.
I don't think any more or less about anyone taking part or not taking part in whatever this weeks meme is. Anyone who does them all is a Lemming.
I fear that the Daily Mail and SLAB have fallen into Sturgeon's bear trap. I'm sure the SNP being the most social media savvy party will have gathered large dossiers of Cyberunionist abuse of SNP MPs, which will be appropriately redacted to avoid falling foul of the DP Act and ready to be drip-fed to the MSM.
Not enough space on the internet for the unionist abuse , it si a real laugh that labour have got some guff on 46 people and are trying to point it at SNP, yet you could fill the British Library with their supporters bile.
Sorry Mr G, the London centric press are now out for SNP blood. Will you be on their list?
Comments
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21656232-foreign-conflicts-stoke-sectarian-squabbles-among-british-muslims-ramadan-ding-dong
But outside school gates Shia parents waiting for their children are worried. A seven-year-old returned home complaining that classmates had threatened to “slaughter you when you grow up”.
Confirmation from the BBC.
Massive step into the unknown. Not sure where we go from here. I still think there will be a fudge at 11.59pm on Sunday, but this is still a big move by the EU.
You have gone to pot today Mr Herdson, this article is rubbish.
@EdConwaySky
As far as I know, this is the first time a euro member has been effectively ejected from key discussions #Greece
"Tunisia is closing down 80 hardline mosques after yesterday's terror. Let's just keep telling ourselves it has nothing to do with Islam."
Whilst I and my staff signed a waiver to say we did not wish the directive to apply to us, the company had no power to make us sign. We just didn't want such a restriction to stop us getting our well paid jobs done.
What is need is that the Working Time Directive is abolished because it is a barrier to achieving results.
There's a legitimate argument for the Germans not to feel they have a responsibility to support other countries when they're in difficulties, but if that's how they feel they should never have created the Euro in the first place (or never admitted Greece to the Euro). But the Germans and the Eurocrats seem to feel they should get all the benefits of the Euro but none of the responsibilites.
It's a shame that the ECJ is a political court, and won't find it unlawful even if it is
The EU also wanted to externally apply capital controls to Greece which is expressly against treaty rights, let's see what happens.
Richard Smith
@richsmithV
Driver fined for Calais stowaways: "£2K is a big chunk of money for us for something desperately wrong with the system and not our fault."
They are not giving them Statutory Maternity Pay?
Hopefully common sense will prevail before the Asian markets open tomorrow evening. However, at the moment all parties seem to be choosing brinkmanship, sadly their all standing at different brinks. Its like watching a slow motion train wreck.
Total breakdown of trust: President of #Eurogroup says Greek government isn't trusted to implement a Yes vote pic.twitter.com/pjdhN2pRGR #grexitG
I have seen her on several discussion programs, and it's always the same - she tries to butt in on everyone else's comments, gets upset when anyone interrupts her and makes comments like "May I finish please?" or "I have a story to tell which is important" (which it never is) and generally has little or no constructive comment to make, other than being to the left of everyone on everything.
Every show she's on descends into tedium.
The scale of support of the ECB has been massive. As an institution they would probably end up writing off something in excess of £150bn as a result of this. That is the money of other countries taxpayers. Enough is enough.
https://twitter.com/SunNation/status/614833105933721600
As I've said on here before, I am lucky in that I can get dvds sent airmail here for less than the list price in the UK. Interestingly this does not apply to books, which have much higher shipping charges
I ordered Wolf Hall the other day (they have it here too but I didn't want the masterpiece top and tail) and amazon.co.uk charged me $2.08 for shipping on a 3 dvd package.
With the Patrick Macnee news, I ordered the 50th anniversary set of The Avengers. For this, a 39 dvd set, the shipping was just over $3. My working assumption is that The Avengers might take longer to arrive than Wolf Hall...
The Avengers set is available here on amazon but is over twice the price.
Am I right in thinking the referendum on July 5th is to accept the Troika proposals and Tsipras is recommending a "No" vote ?
Presumably, if it's a "Yes", Tsipras is finished but if it's a "No" it's a de facto Grexit.
If they weren't so incompetent they could borrow off the market. But nobody is willing to lend to them. This is the problem with socialists, Greece has ran out of other people's money to spend.
Even then, the ECB was not acting out of altruism for Greece, it was acting out of concern for French and German banks, the Greeks have effectively kept none of the bailout money and just passed it on to their credits, whilst keeping the debt. It was a nakedly political act to keep banks from going bust. The IMF even more so should under its own rules not have gone anywhere near Greece, since it is not supposed to lend to insolvent countries (especially ones which are incapable of devaluing their currency)
How inclusive
https://twitter.com/jason_manc/status/614838102180384773
Is our fascination for long hours and cheap labour the root cause of our productivity problem.
While some of the WTD elements are a pain to manage they do stretch management in other ways and force them to seek the best out of the labour they have, hence higher productivity.
It's actually spelled "Yasmin Imakemoneyfrombeing Brown"
"but once sucked one off" ?
'Dearie me.
How inclusive'
In case there was any doubt that Burnham's a complete dickhead.
But there's a difference between a stock and a flow, and the current economics situation is not healthy at the moment. Neither are the government coffers overflowing.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/27/us-russia-crisis-reserve-fund-idUSKBN0LV15R20150227
How many "community leaders" were consulted about this decision.
1. He is describing a proposal that is 99% identical to the one that was sent by Greece to the troika last Sunday as a 'humiliation'.
2. He is attempting to use the threat of a referendum to try and wring extra concessions.
3. He had indicated that, while he was personally in favour of the proposal, he needed to get the agreement of the Greek people.
@Indigo might very well be right that he is trying to force the ECB to force Grexit ("it's not my fault!")
It is pathetic. It is intolerable. It has to stop.
Even quantum physics is a more understandable phenomenon.
Dear God! How utterly revolting.
If Tunisia is closing mosques which have incited extremism then I see no good reason why we should not do the same. Mosques which incite extremism are not religious places of worship. They should be treated no differently than a back room full of IRA commanders.
But it made me wonder whether, from the purely financial point of view, would it make sense to stay outside Greece and be earning non-Greek money? Or would a risk of leaving the EU be enough to make people feel uneasy about being away from home?
Incidentally, I find such "look at me" values-signalling childish and narcissistic. Currently, my Facebook feed is flooded with friends profile pictures who've "rainbowed" themselves using the latest Zuckerberg pride add-on.
It's reached a tipping point now where virtually everyone feels they should be doing it, lest they look bigoted by not having it.
The people you describe self-censor. But many others who don't fall within this description are self-censoring because they are afraid and because the British state seems unwilling to stand up to bullies.
Unbelievable. Never did I think I would feel sympathy for EU technocrats but these two idiots are such bad politicians they have managed it.
The irony is the reality of what they do is literally appeasement, in the Neville Chamber;in sense of the word
New Thread
I don't think any more or less about anyone taking part or not taking part in whatever this weeks meme is. Anyone who does them all is a Lemming.
'When we have authorities doing this - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11699179/Report-about-Asian-grooming-gangs-was-supressed-to-avoid-inflaming-racial-tension.html - it is little wonder that they are losing the trust of the public.'
The authorities do that because they know that the situation is completely out of control and it's the the only way to keep the lid on and pretend the multi cultural experiment is still working.