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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » SNP hold on to Aberdeen Donside with reduced majority – Fa

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  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    taffys said:

    One of the most unsavoury aspects of CQC et al is gagging orders.

    ConHome quotes the Mail that an astonishing 28 million pounds has been paid out to buy the silence of more than 1000 whistle blowers since the coalition took power.

    Crikey - do you have a linky?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939

    DavidL said:

    The country of my youth where Conservatives had a respectable number of seats in Scotland and Labour had similar representation in the south of England outside London was a much healthier demos, at least in that respect, than we have now.

    'Ang-about gov! I think you're ten-or-so years older than me. Your teens were wasted in the late-Seventies/early-'Eighties, no? Why should this English "Thatcher-son" care about those memories considering the pain we have had to endure to fix them?

    And your frecking country-men did the same again, with glee, in the 'Naughties! Begone, and do it expediantly: Enough...!

    Edited to add: Scotland :- GFYS! :)
    Fluffy, I am not sure I understood half of that but you are right that I was a teenager in the 70s. Sorry to be a pest and all that but I have always thought of myself as British and have no desire whatsoever to leave.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    edited June 2013
    Polruan said:

    Neil ,

    " Actually I think it's ridiculous to try to make party political capital out of this. Tax authorities clamp down on tax avoidance when they can. The idea that Labour refused to do this while George Osborne heroically jumped into the breach is silly. "

    It is neither "silly" nor "ridiculous" , it's a historical and political fact.

    The LDF was several years in negotiation and (to pick a random historical doc) was the subject of the August 2009 first joint declaration

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/joint-declaration-lich.pdf

    It's amazing the influence that Osborne seems to have had over several years as shadow CofE, heroically negotiating the LDF against the opposition of the then Labour CofE and PM.

    Obviously the Swiss facility was under negotiation then too.

    Apologies for being "silly" and "ridiculous" - I'm sure that document is somehow not a fact, whether historical or political.

    As a tax adviser, I've seen no real difference in approaches to avoidance between successive governments. All of them try and implement anti-avoidance policies against egregious schemes, all of them tend to get it a bit wrong and create new opportunities. Of course, one of the most effective measures was the Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes, introduced by one G Brown. A nom de plume of Mr Osborne, no doubt.
    Since you like tax oddities, here's one from Germany.

    major Banks ( Grossbanken ) have paid less tax than local and regional banks in the last decade. About 8% of the total sector tax take. yet these are the guys needing huge taxpayer bailouts and support.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/ueberblick-grossbanken-zahlen-wenig-steuern-in-deutschland-12238035.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Not a fan myself - but @MorrisDancer and others may find it interesting - some great pix of morris dancers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/10134011/Staggering-digital-folk-music-archive-launched.html

    "The Full English, the world's biggest digital archive of English traditional music and dance tunes, bringing together 19 major collections for the first time, was unveiled by the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS).

    Anyone in the world can now access the collections of noted folk archivists such as Lucy Broadwood, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, Ralph Vaughan Williams and Mary Leather.

    Simpson said: "This is the first time all of this wonderful material has been accessible, and the people responsible for it are doing an amazing job. The range of items is incredible: songs, letters from collectors, photographs – all kinds of information which illuminates folk music much better than anything previously. It's actually staggering. "
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Tapper said:

    Not a bad result. 4.8 against the Conservatives 7.7. At the GE UKIP were 3.5% nationally.

    Ya think? NF obviously disagrees with you.

    'Farage said he expected Ukip to produce its best ever Scottish parliamentary performance by retaining its deposit and also overtaking either the Tories or Liberal Democrats to claim fourth place in the poll, as his party built up momentum in Scottish politics.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ob8vu7h
    The dynamic in Scotland is different to England as disillusioned Labour are probably already soaked up inside the SNP until the referendum (unless EU goes t*ts up in the meantime) so that means their strategy should be more about persuading Scottish Tories the Tory brand is too mashed in Scotland so they should switch to UKIP as a reboot.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    BenM said:

    Quite.

    @ianbirrell
    Alternative Queen's speech even more tragic when you see full list of bills. What century are these people living in? http://bit.ly/14myI7C

    Do Labour believe in time-travel and/or parallel universes? Has matey-bouy been given RDBMS programming skills - masquerading as logic - by yours-truely...?

    It is not difficult to converse with grown-ups! Just give it a try....

    :need-alternate-monkee-nuts-supply-methinks:

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Something for the Eoin Clark's of this world - I find it hard to get enthusiastic for this subject myself - but still recall a chappy from the Potato Marketing Board on You Bet! about 20yrs ago who correctly identified 20 different varieties of boiled potato in a blind test.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNR1QDqCEAIhlVO.jpg:large
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Not holding my breath, but let's hope we can be rid of Qatada in the near future:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23000847
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:


    I have now given the figures and they are not equivalent.

    From the briefest of glances they look equivalent to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18406879

    But on the wider point I find find Polruan's post far more persuasive.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The country of my youth where Conservatives had a respectable number of seats in Scotland and Labour had similar representation in the south of England outside London was a much healthier demos, at least in that respect, than we have now.

    'Ang-about gov! I think you're ten-or-so years older than me. Your teens were wasted in the late-Seventies/early-'Eighties, no? Why should this English "Thatcher-son" care about those memories considering the pain we have had to endure to fix them?

    And your frecking country-men did the same again, with glee, in the 'Naughties! Begone, and do it expediantly: Enough...!

    Edited to add: Scotland :- GFYS! :)
    Fluffy, I am not sure I understood half of that but you are right that I was a teenager in the 70s. Sorry to be a pest and all that but I have always thought of myself as British and have no desire whatsoever to leave.

    Always remember that Fluffy loves England so much he lives in the Netherlands.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,243
    4.8% is a bad result for UKIP. It needs to be lower, a lower share in completely never in a million years unwinnable seats for the same national overall % yields a higher SD on their vote which increases the chances of taking seats elsewhere.

    At least they lost the deposit though, this should focus UKIP minds (And campaign cash) away from Scotland come 2015.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2013
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    Still, I accept that at least the initial work was done under the last government.

    So maybe they werent as bad at this kind of thing as you claimed. And the latest estimates for the yield that I have seen have grown to be the same as the yield just banked for the Swiss deal. So Osborne's contribution maybe not as unique as you claimed.

    Actually I think it's ridiculous to try to make party political capital out of this. Tax authorities clamp down on tax avoidance when they can. The idea that Labour refused to do this while George Osborne heroically jumped into the breach is silly.
    That's as maybe, Neil.

    But what is the point of retrospectively collecting tax from dubious countries when you then blow the proceeds by selling UK gold reserves at scrap metal prices?

    Bet you don't have an answer to that one, clever clogs.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    DavidL said:

    Fluffy, I am not sure I understood half of that but you are right that I was a teenager in the 70s. Sorry to be a pest and all that but I have always thought of myself as British and have no desire whatsoever to leave.

    I know you are - along with G* - one of the few sensible Scots with economic knowledge. The problem is this: Fifty-odd million Englishmen (and women; sorry 'Arriet) are getting a bit peeved-off.

    A sad dream of "all-those-young-dudes" sheltering under the Union-Flag in the 'Seventies - and I remember the Montreal Olympics - wears thin on my Sarf' Luhndahn shoulders: Blair and Salmond have constructed a monster with which few of us wish to associate. Eventually the rights of the English will be put before those of the Province of Scotland.

    I know many ex-service Scots who will stay in England come independence. You and Unckie-Malc may join them one day....

    * I jest.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Stephen Twigg Answers Yoour Questions on Labour's Education Policy
    http://labourlist.org/2013/06/stephen-twigg-answers-your-(10) questions-on-labours-education-policy/

    e.g.
    2. Sarah Hayward – What’s the role of local authorities in One Nation Labour education policy?

    We want local authorities to be the champion of high standards for children and parents in all schools. So, for example, I want local authorities to be able to issue early warning notices to academies and free schools to challenge underperformance, as they already can for maintained schools. More broadly, I have asked David Blunkett to lead a review into how we improve local oversight of schools. He will look at the role of the local authority, how best central and local government work together and how we can best give local communities a bigger say when new schools are set up.

    9. Moira Sykes – How can a Labour government give parents more power but at the same time prevent better off parents using choice and freedoms to skew a schools intake away from being socially and educationally comprehensive?

    I worry about social selection. Recent research from the Sutton Trust showed that 95 per cent of the top 500 comprehensive schools take fewer pupils on free school meals than their local average.

    All schools must fulfil their commitment to equitable access

    So, I would strengthen the Schools Admissions Code to allow all schools to prioritise disadvantaged children who are eligible for the Pupil Premium, a provision that currently exists only for academies. I also think we should look again at the effectiveness of the Schools Adjudicator to ensure that both the letter and the spirit of the Admissions Code are followed.

    The appeals process for academies is too opaque. In order to ensure greater transparency and parity, I would extend the powers of the Local Government Ombudsman to investigate academies and free schools on admissions. Parents should not have to write to the Secretary of State to complain about their child’s school – they need a local voice. Under Labour local authorities will also have the power to direct all schools to admit hard-to-place child.

    NB: ten questions were selected by LaboutList from "hundreds" sent in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    I have now given the figures and they are not equivalent.

    From the briefest of glances they look equivalent to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18406879

    But on the wider point I find find Polruan's post far more persuasive.

    I will try to cope Neil. The figures from the HMRC show £526m from settlements so far: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/disclosure/ldf-yield.pdf

    One last thought on this topic though. If taxpayers in this country have been failing to declare enough income and capital gains to generate tax of £3.2bn, even over a number of years, why is no one going to jail?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    BenM said:

    Is anyone really surprised?

    @Kevin_Maguire
    Nigel "man of the people"* Farage and the tax-dodging offshore trust set up by Ukip's leader http://mirr.im/16kQ2v2 *Oh yeah!

    Oh uncle Ben is back, sounding all pius. Stop spinning! Farage said that he had made a mistake and the account wasn't used. Trying to inflate a dead ballon is just up your street. Take another day off; you'll feel better for it.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    @Financier

    Going by that answer I am not sure that Mr Twigg is signed up to either academies or free schools. He seems to want all schools back under the control of the local authority.

    I wonder what his answer might be tomorrow?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    UKIP if you want to. Scotland's not for Kipping.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    TGOHF said:
    Shouldn't we tax pasties to fund the arts ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Seems to me Farage did nothing worse than rEd did with his IHT dodge ?

    Or did he ?
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    edited June 2013
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    I have now given the figures and they are not equivalent.

    From the briefest of glances they look equivalent to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18406879

    But on the wider point I find find Polruan's post far more persuasive.

    I will try to cope Neil. The figures from the HMRC show £526m from settlements so far: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/disclosure/ldf-yield.pdf

    One last thought on this topic though. If taxpayers in this country have been failing to declare enough income and capital gains to generate tax of £3.2bn, even over a number of years, why is no one going to jail?
    Well, that last one is that point I hadn't got to yet - and it's not party political at all, Brown and Osborne have played identical strategies on this.It's all well and good to announce Big Numbers as Big Successes, but fundamentally these are amnesties, and there was ample warning given for those who didn't want to take advantage of them to move their money to, erm, more accommodating jurisdictions.

    So this was essentially voluntary, and rich people don't really get rich by volunteering to pay more than they need to. This means you can reasonably assume that many of those who contributed to the 3bn (or whatever) had real liabilities well in excess of what they paid. And at least some of them have used this to avoid a justified criminal prosecution.

    The real question might be "how much money have Brown and Osborne given away to these rich people (as well as not prosecuting them)?" rather than "didn't Osborne do well finding this 3bn down the back of the sofa?"
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    UKIP if you want to. Scotland's not for Kipping.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013

    UKIP if you want to. Scotland's not for Kipping.

    UKIP up 5 % , SNP down 15 % in Aberdeen Donside.

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    More to the point Mr D why can't Mr Piggy Puttnam produce something the masses want to spend time on instead of gambling ? Giving him more cash to produce the kind of things which make gambling seem more entertaining is self defeating.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TGOHF said:
    Whenever I hear the name David Puttnam - I wince. He's been a menace ever since he got the main job at Columbia Pix all those years ago and his ego ran amok. He's the *Lord* who tried to hi-jack the libel reform bill so he could force through press gagging.

    Shameless.

    Trying to dress up concern re online gambling when its a transparent grab to get more money for his own pets is par for the course.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    Polruan said:

    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    DavidL said:


    I have now given the figures and they are not equivalent.

    From the briefest of glances they look equivalent to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18406879

    But on the wider point I find find Polruan's post far more persuasive.

    I will try to cope Neil. The figures from the HMRC show £526m from settlements so far: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/disclosure/ldf-yield.pdf

    One last thought on this topic though. If taxpayers in this country have been failing to declare enough income and capital gains to generate tax of £3.2bn, even over a number of years, why is no one going to jail?
    Well, that last one is that point I hadn't got to yet - and it's not party political at all, Brown and Osborne have played identical strategies on this.It's all well and good to announce Big Numbers as Big Successes, but fundamentally these are amnesties, and there was ample warning given for those who didn't want to take advantage of them to move their money to, erm, more accommodating jurisdictions.

    So this was essentially voluntary, and rich people don't really get rich by volunteering to pay more than they need to. This means you can reasonably assume that many of those who contributed to the 3bn (or whatever) had real liabilities well in excess of what they paid. And at least some of them have used this to avoid a justified criminal prosecution.

    The real question might be "how much money have Brown and Osborne given away to these rich people (as well as not prosecuting them)?" rather than "didn't Osborne do well finding this 3bn down the back of the sofa?"
    Presumably the amnesty part was a quid pro quo for the reduction in banking secrecy? In other words we would not have got the information and the tax had we not agreed to let these people off the criminal consequences of their behaviour?

    It really is one law for the rich and one for the rest of us isn't it? Those who have been the subject of these amnesties should be rigorously audited on a yearly basis. A bit of naming and shaming wouldn't go amiss either but I suppose that is too much to hope for.

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    Er, regardless of the impact on online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    Regarding @RichardJMurphy’s testable prediction of the state of the economy on 22 June 2013 http://timworstall.com/2013/06/21/regarding-richardjmurphys-testable-prediction-of-the-state-of-the-economy-on-22-june-2013/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+timworstall/KTZv+(Tim+Worstall)
    June 21, 2013 By Tim Worstall

    "Nope.

    'This gamble will fail. Give it three years and, as I predicted on Radio 2 today, we’ll be seeing unemployment at 4 million, almost no cut in the deficit and the coalition government a distant memory after its chaotic disintegration as backbenchers fled its ranks. Furthermore, a new government will be announcing a budget to tackle the mess that George Osborne has left.'

    Well, nope unless the next 24 hours is going to be really very interesting indeed."
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Pulpstar said:

    4.8% is a bad result for UKIP. It needs to be lower, a lower share in completely never in a million years unwinnable seats for the same national overall % yields a higher SD on their vote which increases the chances of taking seats elsewhere.

    At least they lost the deposit though, this should focus UKIP minds (And campaign cash) away from Scotland come 2015.

    The dynamic in England and Scotland are completely different.

    In England there's a lot of disillusioned Labour and disgruntled Tory leading to the possibility of coming through the middle for 1st or 2nd.

    In Scotland that's all tied up till after the referendum so the aim there should be just to get bits of the pre-Thatch Scottish Tories to switch over aiming for 3rd or 4th.

    The difference in target position decides resources.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BenM said:

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    Er, regardless of the impact on online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?
    Wait - so Labour hate bookies in the high street and online gambling - what kind of gambling is ok ? Casinos ?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    Seems to me Farage did nothing worse than rEd did with his IHT dodge ?

    Or did he ?

    Farage just set up - but did not use - his IoM trust - the Milibands did execute their "Deed of Variation".

    While its embarrassing for Farage I think he has handled it well "it was a mistake - shouldn't have done it." Rings rather better than "it's perfectly legal, lots of people do it" a la Miliband.

    If anyone thinks the last government was as energetic at tackling tax avoidance as the current one, I suggest they talk to the hundreds of Guernsey and Jersey islanders who lost their jobs when Osborne shut down the LVCR business that had boomed under Brown.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. M, if it did disappear then there'd be no funding from it.

    If it halved in size the funding would be halved.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    BenM said:

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    Er, regardless of the impact on online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?
    Wait - so Labour hate bookies in the high street and online gambling - what kind of gambling is ok ? Casinos ?
    SUPER Casinos - especially in areas of deprivation - tho in fairness, Brown knocked that one on the head.....
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If it halved in size the funding would be halved.

    Mr Dancer, as always with labour the moral posturing is far more important than the actual outcome.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    The figures from the HMRC show £526m from settlements so far: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/disclosure/ldf-yield.pdf

    Yes, and what has been banked from the Swiss arrangement so far? This doesnt change the fact that the estimated yield anticipated by HMRC from tge LDF is broadly the same as the yield banked by the OBR in today's figures.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    TGOHF said:

    BenM said:

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    Er, regardless of the impact on online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?
    Wait - so Labour hate bookies in the high street and online gambling - what kind of gambling is ok ? Casinos ?

    Blairite bonkers which Gordon thankfully scrapped.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lol - rEd says the state will take land off citizens for a pittance.



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345691/Developers-refuse-build-homes-land-taken-away-Miliband-warns.html

    "Developers sitting on land with planning permission will be told to ‘use it or lose it’ by the next Labour government.

    Ed Miliband will announce tomorrow that he would hand local authorities the power to start charging fees to those sitting on land - and then to issue compulsory purchase orders."

    Is there nothing the wonderstate can't fix ?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    TGOHF said:

    BenM said:

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), that's a ridiculous idea.

    "Lord Puttnam, producer of the Oscar-winning film Chariots of Fire, said his tax plan would not only give HMRC extra revenues from offshore gambling companies, but also curb their “worrying” rise. "

    So, if his idea works it'll reduce online gambling and, er, decrease the funding he wants to subsidise the stuff he likes.

    Er, regardless of the impact on online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?
    Wait - so Labour hate bookies in the high street and online gambling - what kind of gambling is ok ? Casinos ?

    Bossy middle class Labour don't think the lower orders should be able to do what posh people do.

    casinos good, bookies bad
    weed good, ciggies bad
    wine good, beer bad


    if you let common people do what they like, soon there'll be nothing left to order them about on.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    This I think hits the nail on the head.

    "The CQC story illustrates the point. A hermetic, bomb-proof elite decides to withhold information that is in the public interest, gets found out (in fairness by other parts of the public service), and has to come clean. The Francis review into Mid Staffs did the same, bringing to light the scale of a problem that we had hints of but not enough detail.

    This outpouring of information, not all of it voluntarily, is having a transformative effect on attitudes to the NHS and those who work for it. League tables of surgeons and hospitals, data on the performance of surgeries and GPs, all of it is encouraging us to view the NHS in a more critical light. In fact, to view it as consumers, not supplicants worshiping an all-powerful deity.

    In the space of a year, it seems, we have gone from the rose-tinted, unquestioning enthusiasm of the Olympics opening ceremony, to a more realistic appreciation of the health service's strengths, and its many weaknesses. This suggests that while the Tories may still lag behind Labour in the public's perception of which party is more in tune with the values of the NHS, voters are no longer prepared to accept unquestioningly the idea that the NHS is a cult and those who work for it are 'angels'.

    If the Tories have secured for all of us permission to criticise the NHS, as opposed to the politicians oversee it, that is healthy, and could change the way health is discussed as a political issue. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100222946/what-the-cqc-scandal-tells-us-about-two-unlikely-political-transformations/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    and this as a final point

    "It is fair to say that [Hunt] has helped shift perceptions, and in so doing has done the government a favour. Why? Because evidence has shown that it is no longer credible for Labour to plead that the NHS is beyond reproach and should be protected at all costs from the Tories. The voters can see for themselves that while it has many strengths, there are things that don't work.

    Before, Tories worried about changing perceptions of the Tories on health. Mr Hunt realised that what was needed was to change perceptions of the NHS itself. It is too early to say for definite, but if these trends continue, then he will be judged to have done his party an enormous service.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:

    why is no one going to jail?

    Certainly there has been a lot of criticism of the Swiss deal Osborne signed off on for being extremely lax on these people. Whatever your views on that I again fail to see how it's a party political point as the calculation underpinning both deals seems to have been the same (cut a deal to get billions of cash for sure rather than push it for all it's worth and scare the horses from complying). On this as on other aspects of this issue Osborne has simply being following in Labour's footsteps rather than breaking new ground.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Mr. M, if it did disappear then there'd be no funding from it.

    If it halved in size the funding would be halved.

    What funding would be halved? There isn't a current funding stream (if sites locate offshore). Isn't that the point?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Neil said:

    DavidL said:

    why is no one going to jail?

    Certainly there has been a lot of criticism of the Swiss deal Osborne signed off on for being extremely lax on these people. Whatever your views on that I again fail to see how it's a party political point as the calculation underpinning both deals seems to have been the same (cut a deal to get billions of cash for sure rather than push it for all it's worth and scare the horses from complying). On this as on other aspects of this issue Osborne has simply being following in Labour's footsteps rather than breaking new ground.
    ONS Public Sector Finances Bulletin - May 2013:

    In January 2013, the Swiss authorities made an initial payment of £342 million to the UK
    Government which has been accrued to May 2013.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited June 2013
    Blairite bonkers which Gordon thankfully scrapped.

    Pity for all those people who might have got jobs but were left to rot on the dole in high unemployment areas.

    But hey, is the high minded morals that count, eh Ben? Just bung em another flat screen and a few more cans of cider. Be grateful for that. Take what you are given, don;t you know you are very lucky really?

    Same with the NHS.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    BenM said:

    Er, regardless of the impact on |online gambling (and if that "industry" disappeared I'd lose no sleep) wouldn't he be receiving a stream of funding where he hadn't before?

    :all-together-now:

    :WHOOSH...:

    :now-form-a-benefit-line-right-over-here--->:

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    TGOHF said:

    Lol - rEd says the state will take land off citizens for a pittance.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345691/Developers-refuse-build-homes-land-taken-away-Miliband-warns.html

    "Developers sitting on land with planning permission will be told to ‘use it or lose it’ by the next Labour government.

    Ed Miliband will announce tomorrow that he would hand local authorities the power to start charging fees to those sitting on land - and then to issue compulsory purchase orders."

    Is there nothing the wonderstate can't fix ?

    The kulak class must be punished.

    " According to the political theory of Marxism-Leninism of the early 20th century, the kulaks were class enemies of the poorer peasants. Vladimir Lenin described them as "bloodsuckers, vampires, plunderers of the people and profiteers, who batten on famine. "
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    BenM said:

    Mr. M, if it did disappear then there'd be no funding from it.

    If it halved in size the funding would be halved.

    What funding would be halved? There isn't a current funding stream (if sites locate offshore). Isn't that the point?
    No the point is Puttnam wants money to fund his hobby and there's a mountain of other things which are better use of taxpayers' money than keeping his cellar stocked.

    I wonder if Mr Puttnam has any special tax advice ?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited June 2013
    Moniker -

    "The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step."

    Luckily for the SNP, we started our long journey to independence way back in the 60s, by winning that famous "Stirling by-election". Alex Salmond being "expelled from the Labour party" a few years later proved only a minor distraction.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    This is rather amusingly cutting.

    "According to a report from our own Robert Watts:

    -All of the 42 proposed Bills may now be subject to debate in Parliament over the coming months after members of the group staged a four-day sit-in at a committee room the House of Commons' Public Bill Office. In order to be first in the queue to put down their private members’ bills yesterday (Thursday) morning, members of the Tory grouping first appeared outside the office at 10pm on Sunday evening.

    In order to keep their place in the queue the four members of the group adopted a rota, with the Kettering MP Philip Hollobone agreeing to spend four nights crashed out on a camp bed with little but a flask of coffee for company. Mr Hollobone said: “It was four nights in a rather hot, square stuffy room right under Big Ben – so not conducive to a good night’s sleep. But it ensured that we were first in the queue when the slots for Private Members’ Bills were given out.

    Another MP, Peter Bone, was quoted as saying: “This is a serious attempt to deliver policies that the British public really want”. Which makes you wonder what a crazed attempt would look like." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100222950/these-rebel-tories-are-not-mature-parliamentarians-they-are-political-fruitcakes/

    and I have to agree

    We remain in the grip of the most protracted economic downturn in over a century. Millions of families are struggling to pay the bills and make ends meet. And yet Conservative MPs are actually sleeping on camp beds and mounting round-the-clock vigils to demand another ludicrous tribute to a dead prime minister, tell us as free citizens what we can and can’t wear in our own streets and have another gratuitous dig at the leader of the Liberal Democratic Party. These are not mature parliamentarians, they are political fruitcakes.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited June 2013
    MrJones said:

    Tapper said:

    Not a bad result. 4.8 against the Conservatives 7.7. At the GE UKIP were 3.5% nationally.

    Ya think? NF obviously disagrees with you.

    'Farage said he expected Ukip to produce its best ever Scottish parliamentary performance by retaining its deposit and also overtaking either the Tories or Liberal Democrats to claim fourth place in the poll, as his party built up momentum in Scottish politics.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ob8vu7h
    The dynamic in Scotland is different to England as disillusioned Labour are probably already soaked up inside the SNP until the referendum (unless EU goes t*ts up in the meantime) so that means their strategy should be more about persuading Scottish Tories the Tory brand is too mashed in Scotland so they should switch to UKIP as a reboot.
    The Scottish Tory dynamic is different also. SCons are possibly less, certainly no more, Eurosceptic than their English cousins, they'll cling to the Conservative and Unionist party at least until after the referendum, and immigration just isn't the driver for the right as it is in England. Even if their figureheads weren't such fatuous buffoons, I don't really see significant mileage for UKIP north of the border.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Moniker -

    "The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step."

    Luckily for the SNP, we started our long journey to independence way back in the 60s, by winning that famous "Stirling by-election". Alex Salmond being "expelled from the Labour party" a few years later proved only a minor distraction.

    It was interesting to me to read about the subsequent careers of the 1979 Group.
    For example ;

    ROBERT CRAWFORD, CBE: A former chief executive of Scottish Enterprise, he is now chief operating officer of the South East England Development Agency.

    ALEX SALMOND , Ardent Monarchist , pro-Nato , pro-Sterling ,friend of Murdoch , and Tipster to the Queen.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    Hows your campaign to hold to account the politicians in charge when the CQC cover up happened?

    Politicians shouldnt be accountable for the corrupt and self-interested actions of officials. But they should be accountable for making a mess of the regulatory regime. And on that Labour does not have a proud record to defend in the case of the CQC.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441

    MrJones said:

    Tapper said:

    Not a bad result. 4.8 against the Conservatives 7.7. At the GE UKIP were 3.5% nationally.

    Ya think? NF obviously disagrees with you.

    'Farage said he expected Ukip to produce its best ever Scottish parliamentary performance by retaining its deposit and also overtaking either the Tories or Liberal Democrats to claim fourth place in the poll, as his party built up momentum in Scottish politics.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ob8vu7h
    The dynamic in Scotland is different to England as disillusioned Labour are probably already soaked up inside the SNP until the referendum (unless EU goes t*ts up in the meantime) so that means their strategy should be more about persuading Scottish Tories the Tory brand is too mashed in Scotland so they should switch to UKIP as a reboot.
    The Scottish Tory dynamic is different also. SCons are possibly less, certainly no more, Eurosceptic than their English cousins, they'll cling to the Conservative and Unionist party at least until after the referendum, and immigration just isn't the driver for the right as it is in England. Even if their figureheads weren't such fatuous buffoons, I don't really see significant mileage for UKIP north of the border.

    immigration isn't really a driver in Scotland as Scotland hasn't the levels of immigration England has.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    I didn't really have much of a view on Jeremy Hunt - he always looked like a nice chap who was a bit startled to be on the telly. Then the bile spewed over BSkyB made me wonder what Lefties were so scared of and now he's played a difficult hand very well over the NHS.

    I rather liked Lansley's manner - he looked and sounded like a slightly grumpy doctor so he seemed to fit the role/was reassuring, but TBH I think Hunt is growing into the SoS well using a totally different tack. I still find his headlights look a bit disconcerting but its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2013
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lol - rEd says the state will take land off citizens for a pittance.



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345691/Developers-refuse-build-homes-land-taken-away-Miliband-warns.html

    "Developers sitting on land with planning permission will be told to ‘use it or lose it’ by the next Labour government.

    Ed Miliband will announce tomorrow that he would hand local authorities the power to start charging fees to those sitting on land - and then to issue compulsory purchase orders."

    Is there nothing the wonderstate can't fix ?

    That's exactly what your hero Boris is urging isnt it?
    The better idea was put by the IMF in their recent peer review of the UK economy. Impose a tax on land banks after allowing a reasonable period for development.

    Compulsory purchase would just delay building further by requiring new planning approvals, onward land sales and re-contracting construction; be likely to lead to long and costly litigation; and would dissuade construction companies from speculative acquisitions of land.

    A grandstanding Labour policy designed to capture headlines rather than solve problems.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    F1: Mercedes to miss the Young Driver Test, and they (and Pirelli) are reprimanded:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22999260

    Hmm.

    Mercedes had offered to miss the Young Driver Test. This does sound like a slightly token punishment. Yes, it's a penalty, but it's not like taking away all their Constructors' points (which I believe was a realistic possibiliy and happened in the recent past to McLaren).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    Greek government wobbling as one of the parties pulls out.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    WTF Mr Forrest the teacher who ran off with a 15yrs old who's besotted with him has got 5.5yrs - Stuart Hall who groomed pre-teens and fessed up to about a dozen victims got 15mnths.

    The world has gone mad.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    WATO leading on Gordon Brown's CQC and its Labour era managers, and their refusal to assist the police inquiry into the death of a baby....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited June 2013


    immigration isn't really a driver in Scotland as Scotland hasn't the levels of immigration England has.

    Yep, ergo UKIP's immigration-fuelled surge in England can't be replicated in Scotland.

  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited June 2013

    immigration isn't really a driver in Scotland as Scotland hasn't the levels of immigration England has.

    Sorry AB,

    But have I missed the Scottish census. From memory I believe that the original UK census but put* the Mohammedian population at 5.2%, but England-and-Wales had a cult-following of 4.8%. I'd be interested in seeing the correct figures....

    * Junior: Page does not seem to refresh with 'new' toolbar edit facility. Will try to isolate problem....**

    ** How does this new tool handle strings? but and put do not seem to be immediately transposable (hence furniture). Maybe revert to "simple-html" until tested...?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    WATO leading on Gordon Brown's CQC and its Labour era managers, and their refusal to assist the police inquiry into the death of a baby....

    That's what I can't understand - why refuse to help the police when you're the regulator? It stinks to high heaven and I just wonder what the possible motivation could be.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Good stuff - simple and effective

    nicholas cecil @nicholascecil
    Two London hospital trusts, UCLH and Kings, agree to put name of responsible consultant & nurse on patients' beds to boost accountability.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    Plato said:



    and I have to agree

    We remain in the grip of the most protracted economic downturn in over a century. Millions of families are struggling to pay the bills and make ends meet. And yet Conservative MPs are actually sleeping on camp beds and mounting round-the-clock vigils to demand another ludicrous tribute to a dead prime minister, tell us as free citizens what we can and can’t wear in our own streets and have another gratuitous dig at the leader of the Liberal Democratic Party. These are not mature parliamentarians, they are political fruitcakes.

    This camp bed stuff used to be routine, until the whips in all parties agreed it was daft and brought Parliament into disrepute, so a first-come-first served rota was agreed which all the parties cooperated on. Presumably this group have decided to break the system, at the expense of whichever MPs had signed up to present Bills in the normal way.

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    I was quite impressed by Chris Leslie in a brief interview on the One O'Clock news. I don't (like everyone else) get to see much of Shadow ministers below Cabinet level, so I haven't picked up on him before. Has anyone else garnered an opinion?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Edinburgh's Liberton/Gilmerton first prefs

    Lab 39.47%
    SNP 30.69%
    Con 11.23%
    LD 8.26%
    Grn 5.62%
    UKIP 3.21%
    Ind Scott 0.87%
    Pirate 0.64%

    Allerdale- Boltons: Ind 175 Con 157 Ind 103 Green 55

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    tim said:

    @Alanbrooke.

    Given that the rise in salience of immigration as an issue was largely among Tories (and particularly in the South East outside of London) its safe to assume that the rise of UKIP in Scotland is hobbled not by the numbers of immigrants but by the numbers of tories ready to get worked up into a frenzy about the issue and jump over to UKIP.

    Woolas ?

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    WTF Mr Forrest the teacher who ran off with a 15yrs old who's besotted with him has got 5.5yrs - Stuart Hall who groomed pre-teens and fessed up to about a dozen victims got 15mnths.

    The world has gone mad.

    Agree, the difference between willing consent and non-consent seems to have been missed. If there was consent did he really abduct her (except from the theoretical parental responsibility).

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    They have just eliminated the Greens....really, bring back the counting machines!
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    WATO leading on Gordon Brown's CQC and its Labour era managers, and their refusal to assist the police inquiry into the death of a baby....

    That's what I can't understand - why refuse to help the police when you're the regulator? It stinks to high heaven and I just wonder what the possible motivation could be.
    @Plato:

    Could be a case of legal failure of duty of care and that the regulators were not distant enough from the management and staff.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited June 2013
    Grandiose said:

    I was quite impressed by Chris Leslie in a brief interview on the One O'Clock news. I don't (like everyone else) get to see much of Shadow ministers below Cabinet level, so I haven't picked up on him before. Has anyone else garnered an opinion?

    He's an effective performer on the Daily Politics too. With a bit of luck Rachel Reeves will be back from maternity leave soon and he'll be less visible.....
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Plato said:

    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

    We must be thinking of different Jeremy Hunts.

    As for the Tories stealing Labour's mantle on the NHS, as you and a few other PBTories have suggested. I don't know what to say. There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    Tapper said:

    Not a bad result. 4.8 against the Conservatives 7.7. At the GE UKIP were 3.5% nationally.

    Ya think? NF obviously disagrees with you.

    'Farage said he expected Ukip to produce its best ever Scottish parliamentary performance by retaining its deposit and also overtaking either the Tories or Liberal Democrats to claim fourth place in the poll, as his party built up momentum in Scottish politics.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ob8vu7h
    The dynamic in Scotland is different to England as disillusioned Labour are probably already soaked up inside the SNP until the referendum (unless EU goes t*ts up in the meantime) so that means their strategy should be more about persuading Scottish Tories the Tory brand is too mashed in Scotland so they should switch to UKIP as a reboot.
    The Scottish Tory dynamic is different also. SCons are possibly less, certainly no more, Eurosceptic than their English cousins, they'll cling to the Conservative and Unionist party at least until after the referendum, and immigration just isn't the driver for the right as it is in England. Even if their figureheads weren't such fatuous buffoons, I don't really see significant mileage for UKIP north of the border.

    I think that's mostly right for now. I have a different definition of significant as i think UKIP managing to snap at Scottish Tory heels might lead to something significant.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    WTF Mr Forrest the teacher who ran off with a 15yrs old who's besotted with him has got 5.5yrs - Stuart Hall who groomed pre-teens and fessed up to about a dozen victims got 15mnths.

    The world has gone mad.

    Agree, the difference between willing consent and non-consent seems to have been missed. If there was consent did he really abduct her (except from the theoretical parental responsibility).

    I haven't followed it closely but the pair are clearly very keen on each other. Whilst he shouldn't have done it - she appears to have been willing and reportedly was still sending loving messages during the trial. I assumed he'd get about a yr - this is a crazy sentence.

    The Times article comments on it earlier were overwhelmingly in support of accepting that both were complicit, he isn't a paedo but stupid and that maybe time served was appropriate.

    5,5yrs is totally OTT. "He received a one year sentence for abduction and four and a half years for the five counts of sexual activity with a child. "
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013
    carl said:

    Plato said:

    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

    We must be thinking of different Jeremy Hunts.

    As for the Tories stealing Labour's mantle on the NHS, as you and a few other PBTories have suggested. I don't know what to say. There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.
    Yes , we all know the NHS is safe in Burnham's hands.

    As the economy will be in EdM's and EdB's.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,971

    F1: Mercedes to miss the Young Driver Test, and they (and Pirelli) are reprimanded:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22999260

    Hmm.

    Mercedes had offered to miss the Young Driver Test. This does sound like a slightly token punishment. Yes, it's a penalty, but it's not like taking away all their Constructors' points (which I believe was a realistic possibiliy and happened in the recent past to McLaren).

    The difference is that someone high-up in the FIA had it in for McLaren in 2007, and McLaren were not going to leave the sport.

    Mercedes could all too easily up and leave F1.

    All in all a fair conclusion IMHO, given the rahter chaotic situation wrt unclear rules and permission given.

    This needs sorting out; the lines of communication between the teams and regulators have been a mess for some time.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Plato said:



    "The Full English, the world's biggest digital archive of English traditional music and dance tunes, bringing together 19 major collections for the first time, was unveiled by the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS).

    Anyone in the world can now access the collections of noted folk archivists such as Lucy Broadwood, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, Ralph Vaughan Williams and Mary Leather.

    Thanks Plato, this is fantastic. Almost makes the internet look worthwhile :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,971

    carl said:

    Plato said:

    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

    We must be thinking of different Jeremy Hunts.

    As for the Tories stealing Labour's mantle on the NHS, as you and a few other PBTories have suggested. I don't know what to say. There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.
    Yes , we all know the NHS is safe in Burnham's hands.

    The NHS was safe in Labour's hands, as were the nurses, doctors and bureaucrats.

    Sadly, patients were not.

    That is how wrong Labour got the NHS.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Jessop, I suspect the departure threat was a hollow one. However, you're right that it was a possibility.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    carl said:

    Plato said:

    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

    We must be thinking of different Jeremy Hunts.

    As for the Tories stealing Labour's mantle on the NHS, as you and a few other PBTories have suggested. I don't know what to say. There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.
    Yes , we all know the NHS is safe in Burnham's hands.
    Indeed!

    There would have been no CQC cover up under Burnham.

    Not that we'd have heard about anyway....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441


    immigration isn't really a driver in Scotland as Scotland hasn't the levels of immigration England has.

    Yep, ergo UKIP's immigration-fuelled surge in England can't be replicated in Scotland.

    UKIP will have to find another issue in Scotland. They might get better mileage playing the independence from Brussels card, it's one of Salmond's weak points.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:



    "The Full English, the world's biggest digital archive of English traditional music and dance tunes, bringing together 19 major collections for the first time, was unveiled by the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS).

    Anyone in the world can now access the collections of noted folk archivists such as Lucy Broadwood, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, Ralph Vaughan Williams and Mary Leather.

    Thanks Plato, this is fantastic. Almost makes the internet look worthwhile :)
    Glad you liked it - I couldn't recall who on PB bar @MorrisDancer who was keen on folk music but it stuck in my mind.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,441
    tim said:

    @Alanbrooke.

    Given that the rise in salience of immigration as an issue was largely among Tories (and particularly in the South East outside of London) its safe to assume that the rise of UKIP in Scotland is hobbled not by the numbers of immigrants but by the numbers of tories ready to get worked up into a frenzy about the issue and jump over to UKIP.

    Is it ? I'd say if you dumped 500k people into Scotland in the next decade the figures would change. From memory some english counties get more migrants than the whole of Scotland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    I never said I was keen on folk music! I wave my wiffle stick to Bohemian Rhapsody.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lol - rEd says the state will take land off citizens for a pittance.



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345691/Developers-refuse-build-homes-land-taken-away-Miliband-warns.html

    "Developers sitting on land with planning permission will be told to ‘use it or lose it’ by the next Labour government.

    Ed Miliband will announce tomorrow that he would hand local authorities the power to start charging fees to those sitting on land - and then to issue compulsory purchase orders."

    Is there nothing the wonderstate can't fix ?

    That's exactly what your hero Boris is urging isnt it?
    The better idea was put by the IMF in their recent peer review of the UK economy. Impose a tax on land banks after allowing a reasonable period for development.

    Compulsory purchase would just delay building further by requiring new planning approvals, onward land sales and re-contracting construction; be likely to lead to long and costly litigation; and would dissuade construction companies from speculative acquisitions of land.

    A grandstanding Labour policy designed to capture headlines rather than solve problems.


    And who would pay the taxes in the end? Not the developers.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    tim,

    "Given that the rise in salience of immigration as an issue was largely among Tories (and particularly in the South East outside of London) ... "

    Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it any truer. There has been a UKIP surge, particularly in Lincolnshire, where immigration is overwhelmingly white, and Labour have been affected too.

    Your presumption that Labour supporters wouldn't vote UKIP and that Lincolnshire is in the South East is a symptom of what you want to be true. UKIP need publicity to maintain their poll ratings. The summer dog-days may see a gradual decline.

    And Scotland is unlikely to be fertile Kipper territory. They have their own NOTA party with a longer history.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,243
    Plato said:

    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    WTF Mr Forrest the teacher who ran off with a 15yrs old who's besotted with him has got 5.5yrs - Stuart Hall who groomed pre-teens and fessed up to about a dozen victims got 15mnths.

    The world has gone mad.

    Agree, the difference between willing consent and non-consent seems to have been missed. If there was consent did he really abduct her (except from the theoretical parental responsibility).

    I haven't followed it closely but the pair are clearly very keen on each other. Whilst he shouldn't have done it - she appears to have been willing and reportedly was still sending loving messages during the trial. I assumed he'd get about a yr - this is a crazy sentence.

    The Times article comments on it earlier were overwhelmingly in support of accepting that both were complicit, he isn't a paedo but stupid and that maybe time served was appropriate.

    5,5yrs is totally OTT. "He received a one year sentence for abduction and four and a half years for the five counts of sexual activity with a child. "
    Shouldn't the 4.5 years be served concurrently with the 1 year sentence ? We have a great tradition of concurrent sentencing in this country for murderers and rapists - why end it here ?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.

    Any tory on here would be stupid not to acknowledge labour enjoys a big lead on the NHS, and that tory attempts to dent their reputation on this have so far failed miserably.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    That is how wrong Labour got the NHS.

    You mayvery well think that. The polls show that getting the voters to think that is a whole different ball game.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Plato said:

    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    WTF Mr Forrest the teacher who ran off with a 15yrs old who's besotted with him has got 5.5yrs - Stuart Hall who groomed pre-teens and fessed up to about a dozen victims got 15mnths.

    The world has gone mad.

    Agree, the difference between willing consent and non-consent seems to have been missed. If there was consent did he really abduct her (except from the theoretical parental responsibility).

    I haven't followed it closely but the pair are clearly very keen on each other. Whilst he shouldn't have done it - she appears to have been willing and reportedly was still sending loving messages during the trial. I assumed he'd get about a yr - this is a crazy sentence.

    The Times article comments on it earlier were overwhelmingly in support of accepting that both were complicit, he isn't a paedo but stupid and that maybe time served was appropriate.

    5,5yrs is totally OTT. "He received a one year sentence for abduction and four and a half years for the five counts of sexual activity with a child. "
    I think it's really good to be honest. I'd imagine it would make going after child prostitution a lot easier if sexual activity with a child gave big deterrent sentences on its own.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2013
    The LibDems have just been eliminated in Edinburgh. Labour is 600 ahead right now. Counting suspended for lunch.....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    carl said:

    Plato said:

    taffys said:

    Plato.

    When I think of endless, endless mountains of negative briefings from Tim on Jeremy Hunt you'd think he couldn't even tie up his own shoelaces. Remember the BskyB decision? a torrent of negativity.

    Suddenly, our Jeremy is threatening to shatter the notion that the NHS is the sole preserve of the labour party - while the gobsmacked left looks on.

    Amazing really.

    its rather endearing for a politician to appear so natural and honest for a change.

    We must be thinking of different Jeremy Hunts.

    As for the Tories stealing Labour's mantle on the NHS, as you and a few other PBTories have suggested. I don't know what to say. There is some, you know, polling on the subject if you are interested.
    Yes , we all know the NHS is safe in Burnham's hands.

    The NHS was safe in Labour's hands, as were the nurses, doctors and bureaucrats.

    Sadly, patients were not.

    That is how wrong Labour got the NHS.
    Well said. I can't recall which PBer made this observation a couple of days ago - if it was you, my apols. I thought it was spot on that Labour are more wedded to the notion of the NHS as a socialist badge of honour, than what it actually delivers in practice.

    Which is why we get the silly dogma about *privatisation* as if the beds, drugs, GPs etc weren't either product of the private sector or subcontractors to the public sector and have been for decades.

    That the CQC covered up [so it would never see the FOI light of day - read my lips] a damning report into the deaths of mothers and babies is just staggering. That a PR expert and Deputy CE apparently said this is mind-boggling - that the CE wasn't aware totally improbable.

    They are the regulator for pity's sake - its like the HSE binning a report into 16 deaths at Sellafield because it was embarrassing for the SoS.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    taffys said:

    That is how wrong Labour got the NHS.

    You mayvery well think that. The polls show that getting the voters to think that is a whole different ball game.

    Do you think that recent disclosures will have any affect on polls in future?

    It only needs to introduce a doubt into people's minds for the "NHS" not to be Labour safe ground any more.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited June 2013

    Plato said:



    "The Full English, the world's biggest digital archive of English traditional music and dance tunes, bringing together 19 major collections for the first time, was unveiled by the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS).

    Anyone in the world can now access the collections of noted folk archivists such as Lucy Broadwood, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, Ralph Vaughan Williams and Mary Leather.

    Thanks Plato, this is fantastic. Almost makes the internet look worthwhile :)
    You may be already aware of this, but if not, as a past Scottish sojourner you might find it interesting.

    http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/#
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited June 2013
    They said on the BBC that he got 5.5 for sexual activity with a child and 1 year for the abduction, to run concurrently - but the Indie says otherwise.

    Just to say, I agree with the sentence - student/teacher relationships involve an abuse of position, that's why we come down harder on the teacher in such a relationship. The age of consent being, in my opinion, not unduely high at 16, then engaging in sexual activity with someone below that (i.e. 15 or below) should carry a significant sentence.

    The point about abuse of position is about the ability of the child in each case to make an entirely free decision; it's a position of trust and control that means a presumed element of coercion that adds to the sentence.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Apparently Stuart Hall could only be sentenced under the laws and guidance at the time he committed his offence.

    Mr Forrest was a teacher and placed in a position of absolute trust. An exemplary sentence that may help to deter such behaviour in future is bang on the money.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Do you think that recent disclosures will have any affect on polls in future?

    An utterly fascinating question I do not know the answer to. Well worthy of a thread, I would have thought.

    The left on the site clearly think this is a non-story that won't affect labour's grip on this issue, despite the opposition's stunned silence on what Hunt is doing.

    Judging by how the public have failed to connect Stafford with Labour, they may be right.
This discussion has been closed.