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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LAB leadership race: Burnham appears in commanding posi

SystemSystem Posts: 11,706
edited June 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LAB leadership race: Burnham appears in commanding position in the betting & MP declarations

Not long now before the formal process for electing Labour’s next leader kicks into place. To appear on the ballot a contender has to have nominations from 35 fellow MPs and, as the chart shows, just Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, has managed to get more than that number to declare for him.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    First?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    Well there is a good start to the day. On topic I think it is the indented paragraph in bold that is the most important. Once the 35 has been achieved the votes of the MPs are of very little value and are unlikely to swing that many members.

    But it does seem to me that Burnham and Cooper are the ones who will be most acceptable to the membership. Kendall seems to keen to tell them things that they do not want to hear. Whether they are true or not is probably irrelevant.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    Granted the race proper hasn't started yet, but not heard much about Kendall the past week. She will need to grab attention to ensure she has not already peaked.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    Well there is a good start to the day. On topic I think it is the indented paragraph in bold that is the most important. Once the 35 has been achieved the votes of the MPs are of very little value and are unlikely to swing that many members.

    But it does seem to me that Burnham and Cooper are the ones who will be most acceptable to the membership. Kendall seems to keen to tell them things that they do not want to hear. Whether they are true or not is probably irrelevant.

    I think Kendall may do well with the Labour members and supporters, but her support with MP's is looking a bit thin. Mary Creagh looks out of it.

    Burnham and Kendall will do best in the hustings. Cooper is a very dull speaker and never seems to make the connection to the audience. She would be Ed revisited.

    If Kendall does not make it, I would hope to see her in a senior role outside of health and social care. It would be interesting to see her stretch herself.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Can this be turned into a dodgy bar chart - can't win here stuff.

    If Burnham is the answer, then Labour is well and truly....
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Burnham..oh yes please.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    With her husband electorally knee-capped, I'm amazed Yvette isn't the favourite now as he was always the biggest problem with her leadership prospects.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    I hope it's not Burnham.

    But at least if it is, we can be sure he won't follow Ed's habit of calling for inquiries into everything. Especially the NHS.

    With the caveat that he will if it involves Liverpool ...

    He's scum.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608

    With her husband electorally knee-capped, I'm amazed Yvette isn't the favourite now as he was always the biggest problem with her leadership prospects.

    As Gerry Adams said of the IRA, he hasn't gone away you know.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403

    DavidL said:

    Well there is a good start to the day. On topic I think it is the indented paragraph in bold that is the most important. Once the 35 has been achieved the votes of the MPs are of very little value and are unlikely to swing that many members.

    But it does seem to me that Burnham and Cooper are the ones who will be most acceptable to the membership. Kendall seems to keen to tell them things that they do not want to hear. Whether they are true or not is probably irrelevant.

    I think Kendall may do well with the Labour members and supporters, but her support with MP's is looking a bit thin. Mary Creagh looks out of it.

    Burnham and Kendall will do best in the hustings. Cooper is a very dull speaker and never seems to make the connection to the audience. She would be Ed revisited.

    If Kendall does not make it, I would hope to see her in a senior role outside of health and social care. It would be interesting to see her stretch herself.
    I do agree that Kendall will do well in the hustings as she is personable (unlike Cooper) and articulate (unlike Burnham). But we have already seen the "Blair Witch project" response to what she is saying. The Unions, the left wing intelligentsia and what is left of the Milliband grouping will just not like it.

    Henry told us a while ago that Cooper was the most organised and I agree with Scrapheap that her biggest problem has always been her husband. If he follows through on his apparent intention to seek a job outwith politics I think that will give her a considerable boost. Burnham is just the Tory dream ticket. Labour really should think about that.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    Anyway, this was the most important MP backing that Andy Burnham has received so far, and it was yesterday

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXXj6-VkZt0
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,741
    I asked some local members who they were supporting last night. No clear picture, and some strong anti views against Liz and Yvette. I'm still an undecided voter.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    Didn't a cabinet minister outright say that they hoped burnham won? That struck me as a bit too blunt - some in labour might be worrying who the Tories think would be best for them, but blind so unsubtle might lead them to think the opposite, that the Tories don't want burnham to win so are trying to damn him with their pretend endorsement. Maybe I'm overthinking it.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Both Burnham and Cooper will not provide any new answers to the problems that EdM had defined but failed to provide solutions - that is their major weakness.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
    I'm posting this because I want see the steam rising from @LIAMT's ears:

    ‘They abolished the Human Rights Act” sounds like the first sentence of an Aldous Huxley novel. The Conservatives actually campaigned on a manifesto pledge to get rid of human rights and people voted for it. As electoral choices go, it’s not far off choosing to be ruled by a dry, whispering voice taunting you from an antique mirror.

    What if David Cameron is an evil genius?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058

    I asked some local members who they were supporting last night. No clear picture, and some strong anti views against Liz and Yvette. I'm still an undecided voter.

    Out of interest, is there anyone you really wish had stood but did not?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Good morning, everyone.

    Good news about Blatter's departure. I do wonder if Qatar's now open to doubt.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    kle4 said:

    Didn't a cabinet minister outright say that they hoped burnham won? That struck me as a bit too blunt - some in labour might be worrying who the Tories think would be best for them, but blind so unsubtle might lead them to think the opposite, that the Tories don't want burnham to win so are trying to damn him with their pretend endorsement. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

    Yup, Jeremy Hunt, see the video I posted at 8:13 am
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    The progressive majority myth is over – you need Tory votes to win

    http://bit.ly/1MjW8Ro
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    A good illustration of the problems Labour would have under Burnham:
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x11yk0h_burnham-and-hunt-clash-over-hospital-staffing-levels_news

    And another good reason for him not to be leader (and I don't mean the affectation with the scarf) http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerpike/2015/01/burnhams-bill-for-hollow-hunt-legal-threat/

    Cameron is said to be a lucky general. Can he really be that lucky?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058

    kle4 said:

    Didn't a cabinet minister outright say that they hoped burnham won? That struck me as a bit too blunt - some in labour might be worrying who the Tories think would be best for them, but blind so unsubtle might lead them to think the opposite, that the Tories don't want burnham to win so are trying to damn him with their pretend endorsement. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

    Yup, Jeremy Hunt, see the video I posted at 8:13 am
    Ah yes, posted while my post was in progress. Idk, it almost seems against the 'rules' to be so direct if he meant it.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    FIFA = UKIP surely?

    I mean, how many UKIP MEPs ended up doing porridge? Will it be fewer than the number of FIFA executives in the next few years?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Off-topic:

    It's been interesting to hear the experts talk about the Alton Towers incident yesterday. Apparently it should have been 'impossible' for it to happen, and the 'automated systems' and computers should have prevented it.

    As an (ex-)engineer, those sort of phrases are the biggest warning signs you can have.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chuka, details man...

    @ChukaUmunna: I will be leading the Queen's Speech debate on devolution and growth in the House of Commons straight after PMQs today from around 12.30.

    Ummm

    @ChukaUmunna: I'll be leading the Queen's Speech debate on devolution and growth in the House of Commons after tributes to Charles Kennedy from around 1pm
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. 1000, on the other hand, FIFA isn't trying to give prisoners the vote*, doesn't take billions [tens of billions?] from us each year, and doesn't want ever more political power over the UK.

    *Yes, yes, it's one weird European Court or other. For people who aren't anoraks, it falls under the umbrella of interference from Brussels.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403

    Anyway, this was the most important MP backing that Andy Burnham has received so far, and it was yesterday

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXXj6-VkZt0

    If Sajid Javid wants to be in the race to succeed Cameron he'd better get his skates on. After a very good election campaign Hunt is looking more and more like the next Tory leader to me.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    I would both are ultimately concerned only or principally with enhancing their own organisation and bureaucracy as an end in itself, but I think you have it right. FIFA seems designed for little else than being a money funnel, seriously what do they need all that money for? With over a billion in reserves their costs for development etc cannot be that high.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    edited June 2015
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Didn't a cabinet minister outright say that they hoped burnham won? That struck me as a bit too blunt - some in labour might be worrying who the Tories think would be best for them, but blind so unsubtle might lead them to think the opposite, that the Tories don't want burnham to win so are trying to damn him with their pretend endorsement. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

    Yup, Jeremy Hunt, see the video I posted at 8:13 am
    Ah yes, posted while my post was in progress. Idk, it almost seems against the 'rules' to be so direct if he meant it.
    It's like Operation Fortitude, confuse (and hype up) your enemy.

    The Tories do have form for this.

    Throughout, stealth was key to the Conservatives’ success. Not only did they know the public polls were wrong, but Tory insiders now admit they deliberately encouraged Labour to build up the myth that Mr Miliband and his union allies had the superior street campaigning machine.

    http://bit.ly/1Ac8eu6
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. L, Hunt's too soft.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    FIFA = UKIP surely?

    I mean, how many UKIP MEPs ended up doing porridge? Will it be fewer than the number of FIFA executives in the next few years?
    Click bait. I mean I know posts are down after the election but you can surely be more subtle than that?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Well there is a good start to the day. On topic I think it is the indented paragraph in bold that is the most important. Once the 35 has been achieved the votes of the MPs are of very little value and are unlikely to swing that many members.

    But it does seem to me that Burnham and Cooper are the ones who will be most acceptable to the membership. Kendall seems to keen to tell them things that they do not want to hear. Whether they are true or not is probably irrelevant.

    I think Kendall may do well with the Labour members and supporters, but her support with MP's is looking a bit thin. Mary Creagh looks out of it.

    Burnham and Kendall will do best in the hustings. Cooper is a very dull speaker and never seems to make the connection to the audience. She would be Ed revisited.

    If Kendall does not make it, I would hope to see her in a senior role outside of health and social care. It would be interesting to see her stretch herself.
    I do agree that Kendall will do well in the hustings as she is personable (unlike Cooper) and articulate (unlike Burnham). But we have already seen the "Blair Witch project" response to what she is saying. The Unions, the left wing intelligentsia and what is left of the Milliband grouping will just not like it.

    Henry told us a while ago that Cooper was the most organised and I agree with Scrapheap that her biggest problem has always been her husband. If he follows through on his apparent intention to seek a job outwith politics I think that will give her a considerable boost. Burnham is just the Tory dream ticket. Labour really should think about that.
    Ed's timebomb is the reformed way of electing the leader. It is not yet clear how many will sign up as Labour supporters for £3 in order to vote. We also have no idea of where these supporters will be on the spectrum
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    DavidL said:

    Anyway, this was the most important MP backing that Andy Burnham has received so far, and it was yesterday

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXXj6-VkZt0

    If Sajid Javid wants to be in the race to succeed Cameron he'd better get his skates on. After a very good election campaign Hunt is looking more and more like the next Tory leader to me.
    You can still get 33/1 on Hunt being the next Tory leader and 66/1 on him being next PM.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    ConHome: Sajid Javid leaps to second place and Osborne to third in our next Tory leader survey

    Boris’s score falls by six points and May drops to fourth place.

    http://bit.ly/1EUBBN3
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    FIFA = UKIP surely?

    I mean, how many UKIP MEPs ended up doing porridge? Will it be fewer than the number of FIFA executives in the next few years?
    Click bait. I mean I know posts are down after the election but you can surely be more subtle than that?
    You'll be delighted to know that I'm writing a thread on AV for the weekend.

    If that doesn't get traffic up, then I don't know what will.
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    I am surprised that you argue about the extent of corruption - there should not be any corruption in any such organisation.

    However the EU accounts have not be signed off for many a year and part of that is due to corrupt claims by individual countries that are not disallowed by EU officials. So how do you know that bribery is not happening?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    When it comes to the Labour Leadership election , whoever wins, the words of Sir Richard Mottram seem appropriate
    .
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,293
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    FIFA = UKIP surely?

    I mean, how many UKIP MEPs ended up doing porridge? Will it be fewer than the number of FIFA executives in the next few years?
    Click bait. I mean I know posts are down after the election but you can surely be more subtle than that?
    You're obviously new here.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    DavidL said:



    I do agree that Kendall will do well in the hustings as she is personable (unlike Cooper) and articulate (unlike Burnham). But we have already seen the "Blair Witch project" response to what she is saying. The Unions, the left wing intelligentsia and what is left of the Milliband grouping will just not like it.

    Henry told us a while ago that Cooper was the most organised and I agree with Scrapheap that her biggest problem has always been her husband. If he follows through on his apparent intention to seek a job outwith politics I think that will give her a considerable boost. Burnham is just the Tory dream ticket. Labour really should think about that.

    I'm in one of the largest and most left-wing CLPs in Britain - we think Jeremy Corbyn is great - but very few members that I've talked to have a firm view. Neither the left nor the unions (not synonymous - e.g. UNITE refused to send help because I oppose Trident) are yet obviously pushing for anyone in particular.

    The issue with Kendall is not that she tears up existing policy, we're up for that: it's that we want to hear something really attractive that she stands for, rather than just the vague "whatever works" thing. Maybe it's coming.

    Cooper is witty and clever in private and the candidate with the most obvious gravitas of the four, and is positioning herself well on the centre-left, but needs to open up in public. Longer-standing members who've met her rate her highly; the newer ones are more sceptical.

    Burnham is the most-liked of the candidates personally by many members and I think the Tories underestimate him; he's interestingly open-minded and would surprise people with his revisionism (Tories expect it from Kendall but haven't spotted it with him). But I wonder about the gravitas aspect.

    In short, it's the contest with the least dug-in views that I can remember in the party. The hustings are going to be widely-watched by members and crucial. Really any of the candidates, including Creagh, could get a decisive breakthrough if they do well. Punters who lay the favourites should do well for some time.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    PMQs today.

    What will Harriet and Angus raise, and does Clegg get to ask a question, if so will be poignant
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I agree with Nick.

    Andy Burnham's weakness is not his past or his unwillingness to move beyond Milibandism, it's his lack of heft. A leftwing William Hague as Opposition leader, if you like.

    The Conservatives are underestimating both him and Yvette Cooper. Both would be capable.

    Paradoxically, they are overestimating Liz Kendall, who is raw, barely tested and would struggle to keep Labour's left flank on board.

    But most importantly, no one should be odds on yet, so laying the favourite seems clear cut.
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    macisbackmacisback Posts: 382

    DavidL said:



    I do agree that Kendall will do well in the hustings as she is personable (unlike Cooper) and articulate (unlike Burnham). But we have already seen the "Blair Witch project" response to what she is saying. The Unions, the left wing intelligentsia and what is left of the Milliband grouping will just not like it.

    Henry told us a while ago that Cooper was the most organised and I agree with Scrapheap that her biggest problem has always been her husband. If he follows through on his apparent intention to seek a job outwith politics I think that will give her a considerable boost. Burnham is just the Tory dream ticket. Labour really should think about that.

    I'm in one of the largest and most left-wing CLPs in Britain - we think Jeremy Corbyn is great - but very few members that I've talked to have a firm view. Neither the left nor the unions (not synonymous - e.g. UNITE refused to send help because I oppose Trident) are yet obviously pushing for anyone in particular.

    The issue with Kendall is not that she tears up existing policy, we're up for that: it's that we want to hear something really attractive that she stands for, rather than just the vague "whatever works" thing. Maybe it's coming.

    Cooper is witty and clever in private and the candidate with the most obvious gravitas of the four, and is positioning herself well on the centre-left, but needs to open up in public. Longer-standing members who've met her rate her highly; the newer ones are more sceptical.

    Burnham is the most-liked of the candidates personally by many members and I think the Tories underestimate him; he's interestingly open-minded and would surprise people with his revisionism (Tories expect it from Kendall but haven't spotted it with him). But I wonder about the gravitas aspect.

    In short, it's the contest with the least dug-in views that I can remember in the party. The hustings are going to be widely-watched by members and crucial. Really any of the candidates, including Creagh, could get a decisive breakthrough if they do well. Punters who lay the favourites should do well for some time.
    I will file that with the pile of your predictions for the recent general election. Burnham is very much like Miliband, his personal ambition and ego will make him very open minded to anything that he thinks he will gain personally from. Not what Labour needs, especially when you add a bit of Brown's nastiness.

    Labour would be sensible to steer well clear, those clashes highlighted with Hunty show how limited Burnham is, any of the 3 lady candidates would be a much better choice for Labour, Cooper is solid enough, Kendall certainly looks good, a decent starting point.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is going to be fun

    @LabourList: "Wanting to make a profit doesn’t make you evil" - Stella Creasy deputy leader hopeful speaks on Labour and business http://t.co/E182nEMFPX

    Labour are now going to tear themselves apart trying to separate "good profit" from "bad profit"

    @dixon_pete: @LabourList We just need to know the difference between 'profit' and 'profiteering'. The Tories don't.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.

    A better example is the German Maglev crash that killed 23 people. If I recall correctly, they said the automated systems and the entire design itself would prevent a collision between two trains. ISTR there were claims that maglev crashes were impossible.

    What all the experts and designers amazingly ignored was that the track would require cleaning and repairs, so a manually-operated maintenance train would be allowed on the tracks. A maintenance train that was invisible to the automated systems unless a switch was flicked, and they relied on human radio messages to state the line was clear.

    You can guess what happened next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision

    A massive problem with computerised systems is the interface between humans and the systems. Edge and corner cases are particularly troublesome. It would not surprise me if this is what happened yesterday.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    "We just need to know the difference between 'profit' and 'profiteering'. The Tories don't."

    The wording of this suggests you don't either, mate.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,957

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.

    A better example is the German Maglev crash that killed 23 people. If I recall correctly, they said the automated systems and the entire design itself would prevent a collision between two trains. ISTR there were claims that maglev crashes were impossible.

    What all the experts and designers amazingly ignored was that the track would require cleaning and repairs, so a manually-operated maintenance train would be allowed on the tracks. A maintenance train that was invisible to the automated systems unless a switch was flicked, and they relied on human radio messages to state the line was clear.

    You can guess what happened next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision

    A massive problem with computerised systems is the interface between humans and the systems. Edge and corner cases are particularly troublesome. It would not surprise me if this is what happened yesterday.
    Most interesting.

    I understand (I think) an edge case, but what is a corner case please??
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Danish update for punters:

    * The centre-right still lead in all but one recent poll, by 1-3%, and that's been the position for a very long time.
    * 22% of voters say they're unsure, but when pressed 42-34% of these say they're leaning left rather than right. A lot of that is down to the leaders: they rate Thorning (centre-left) as "best PM" by 39% to a mere 10% for her opponent, and she wins 48-5 on "most credible" (he's had expenses issues and is accused of misquoting economic figures).
    * Turnout in Denmark is always extremely high (88% last time) so the uncertain voters will probably vote.

    Genuinely hard to call because the polls are so static, but the professional commentators seem to think Thorning will edge it.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    That is a somewhat rose-tinted view of the EU. Plenty of corruption scandals in the EU. And a view amongst the bureaucracy and top wallahs that transparency is for the little people. Any whistleblower gets thrown out and mistreated. We simply are not in a position to know whether or not our money is being misspent or stolen.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    @benrileysmith: England will not bid for 2022 World Cup if reopened, Greg Dyke says. Will go outside Europe. There goes that then.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.

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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Carnyx said:

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.

    A better example is the German Maglev crash that killed 23 people. If I recall correctly, they said the automated systems and the entire design itself would prevent a collision between two trains. ISTR there were claims that maglev crashes were impossible.

    What all the experts and designers amazingly ignored was that the track would require cleaning and repairs, so a manually-operated maintenance train would be allowed on the tracks. A maintenance train that was invisible to the automated systems unless a switch was flicked, and they relied on human radio messages to state the line was clear.

    You can guess what happened next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision

    A massive problem with computerised systems is the interface between humans and the systems. Edge and corner cases are particularly troublesome. It would not surprise me if this is what happened yesterday.
    Most interesting.

    I understand (I think) an edge case, but what is a corner case please??
    A corner case is when two (or more) conditions are outside a system's design limits.

    Arguably, worse than edge cases simply because the combinatorial explosion makes testing hard and/or impractical.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Although the MPs role is reduced, I would be surprised if someone with comparatively little support from the ranks of MPs could effectively run the Parliamentary Labour Party. So, candidates who struggle to end up with the bare 35 or so nominations are effectively disadvantaged.

    Did not Nick Palmer once say that he thought one of Miliband’s achievements was a united party ? (Apologies if I have misremember this).

    I think Kendall would stand a very good chance of breaking the Labour Party in two. This prospect would be a serious concern if she only just reached 35 MPs, less so if she managed 50.

    But, I suspect Henry G may well be right and Yvette will come through the middle.





  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.

    A better example is the German Maglev crash that killed 23 people. If I recall correctly, they said the automated systems and the entire design itself would prevent a collision between two trains. ISTR there were claims that maglev crashes were impossible.

    What all the experts and designers amazingly ignored was that the track would require cleaning and repairs, so a manually-operated maintenance train would be allowed on the tracks. A maintenance train that was invisible to the automated systems unless a switch was flicked, and they relied on human radio messages to state the line was clear.

    You can guess what happened next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision

    A massive problem with computerised systems is the interface between humans and the systems. Edge and corner cases are particularly troublesome. It would not surprise me if this is what happened yesterday.
    No system is foolproof for the simple reason that fools are endlessly inventive!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Carnyx said:

    Most interesting.

    I understand (I think) an edge case, but what is a corner case please??

    Believe it or not, it's as simple as where two (or more) edge cases meet.

    For instance, in chip design they (should!) look at corner cases of temperature and voltage. A chip might work well at the maximum rated temperature, or the maximum rated voltage, but if you have both at once it fails.

    This means customers understandably get annoyed. Your tests shows it works according to specification at the highest voltage, but it fails for them in their tests. It turns out that they're driving another characteristic at a maximum.

    Can you tell I've spent a little too much of my life sitting around environment and anechoic chambers ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_case
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be fun

    @LabourList: "Wanting to make a profit doesn’t make you evil" - Stella Creasy deputy leader hopeful speaks on Labour and business http://t.co/E182nEMFPX

    Labour are now going to tear themselves apart trying to separate "good profit" from "bad profit"

    @dixon_pete: @LabourList We just need to know the difference between 'profit' and 'profiteering'. The Tories don't.

    I think Ms Creasy will find that many of her members do actually believe that; this is one of Labour's great challenges. Isn't it self-evident that having a strong economy is a prerequisite for any kind of welfare state?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Carnyx said:

    Most interesting.

    I understand (I think) an edge case, but what is a corner case please??

    Literally the point where two edges meet. Two conditions that were on the edge of the design parameters occurring simultaneously
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.
    It is. The size of passenger ships had increased so dramatically (doubled every decade over the preceding two) many of the newest ships were described as 'practically' unsinkable - (including Cunard's Lusitania) - by journalists - but never by shipping lines, or ship builders. The worst they did was point out how difficult</i< it would be to sink them.....

    But often the myths are more interesting than the reality (and say much more about us and what we like to believe.....)

    Talking about 'myths' the Danes are doing a wonderful demolition job on 'manifest destiny' in 1864.......gripping stuff - even if it is slightly odd recognising some of the actors from Borgen.....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083

    Mr. Jessop, you mean like making a ship unsinkable?

    Yes, although I believe the Titanic 'unsinkable' claim is a myth.

    A better example is the German Maglev crash that killed 23 people. If I recall correctly, they said the automated systems and the entire design itself would prevent a collision between two trains. ISTR there were claims that maglev crashes were impossible.

    What all the experts and designers amazingly ignored was that the track would require cleaning and repairs, so a manually-operated maintenance train would be allowed on the tracks. A maintenance train that was invisible to the automated systems unless a switch was flicked, and they relied on human radio messages to state the line was clear.

    You can guess what happened next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision

    A massive problem with computerised systems is the interface between humans and the systems. Edge and corner cases are particularly troublesome. It would not surprise me if this is what happened yesterday.
    No system is foolproof for the simple reason that fools are endlessly inventive!
    Yep. As a boss told me when I was young and green: "The moment you make something foolproof, they come along with a better design of fool!"

    But you can design against foolishness to a certain extent. But that does not make the system 'safe'.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    Burnham..oh yes please.

    Mr Dodd, I fear, like me, you may not have the best interests of the Labour Party at heart......

    Interesting compare & contrast over the responses to Kennedy's death - the current SNP leader delivered a touching and eloquent response - and despite protestations of Nats that 'Unionists are just out to get the SNP', has suffered no criticism for it. Unlike her predecessor. Who must be defended at all costs.
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    grahambc1grahambc1 Posts: 26
    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    The labour leadership contest is bad news for all except the govt, Burnham isn't up to holding Cameron to account. He seems a decent bloke but lacks the gravitas to be considered PM material.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The labour leadership contest is bad news for all except the govt, Burnham isn't up to holding Cameron to account. He seems a decent bloke but lacks the gravitas to be considered PM material.

    Once said about Cameron...
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    They need to make them angry, and they have the right man for the job. Phil Woolas
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Apparently there is a mathematical possibility that none of the deputy leader contenders will make it onto the ballot...
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited June 2015
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.


    Electing Burnham is a core vote strategy, not a winning one. - Kendall, just might be.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2015
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    Subdividing the electorate then trying to win with a rainbow type coalition within the Labour party is not a recipe for success.

    Labour will win when it realises that the interests of women, BME Britons, the WWC, Scotland, Wales and Middle England are actually fairly closely aligned. There is far more that unites us than divides us. It is putting together a coherent and believable set of policies that needs to be the priority for the new leader, not refighting the 2005-2010 parliament. It is why Kendall is the best candidate, with Andy Burnham second. Incidentally these two seem to get on well together, and I can see that Burnham may make a good shadow CoE. He was good as Chief Sec to the Treasury.
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    grahambc1grahambc1 Posts: 26
    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    Is that you Yvette..?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,992

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    Subdividing the electorate then trying to win with a rainbow type coalition within the Labour party is not a recipe for success.

    Labour will win when it realises that the interests of women, BME Britons, the WWC, Scotland, Wales and Middle England are actually fairly closely aligned. There is far more that unites us than divides us. It is putting together a coherent and believable set of policies that needs to be the priority for the new leader, not refighting the 2005-2010 parliament. It is why Kendall is the best candidate, with Andy Burnham second. Incidentally these two seem to get on well together, and I can see that Burnham may make a good shadow CoE. He was good as Chief Sec to the Treasury.
    Quite so.

    Labour are however, not far from government, despite being unpopular. A gain of 35 Conservative seats would be enough to form a left wing coalition.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,673
    Cyclefree said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    The problems with the EU resemble many of the problems with FIFA.

    It was mentioned this morning that it could take into 2016 for the FIFA Congress to be reconvened - is this to allow time for the shredding machines to work overtime and hard drives to be smashed?

    I don't think that's fair. The EU has many, many problems: but I don't think that any of the EU bureaucrats have syphoned tens or hundreds of millions of Euros into their personal bank accounts. Nor do I think there is systematic institutional bribery of representatives from member states.

    If you want, I can think of comparisons that do work (secretive, excessive powers in the hands of unelected officials, not exactly democratically answerable, etc.), but I think the FIFA scandal - by the time it is fully played out - is going to be the largest corruption scandal ever.
    That is a somewhat rose-tinted view of the EU. Plenty of corruption scandals in the EU. And a view amongst the bureaucracy and top wallahs that transparency is for the little people. Any whistleblower gets thrown out and mistreated. We simply are not in a position to know whether or not our money is being misspent or stolen.

    Absolutely.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,728
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    Do you not think that elections are won in the centre ground?
    Cameron won having been forced to/allowed to run a centrist government. I'd suggest that the LibDems lost out and the Tories benefitted because people thought that a Labour/SNP government was likely and they didn't want that.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    grahambc1 said:

    Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    Just as well he's not an Oxbridge career politician, eh?
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    The one thing to say about choosing Burnham is that he'd make the choice of EdM in 2010 look inspired. He is a bit like Michael Foot but without the intellect, humour or the communication skills. A loser.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OGH Behave... he would be brilliant...honest..
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    The labour leadership contest is bad news for all except the govt, Burnham isn't up to holding Cameron to account. He seems a decent bloke but lacks the gravitas to be considered PM material.

    Once said about Cameron...
    I never heard that - indeed he was touted as a potential PM very early on.
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    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    The labour leadership contest is bad news for all except the govt, Burnham isn't up to holding Cameron to account. He seems a decent bloke but lacks the gravitas to be considered PM material.

    Once said about Cameron...
    I think Cameron was always perceived as 'normal'. He was only disliked by raving loony right wingers. The well bred Eton business did not do him any harm, it gave him the perception of PM material if anything. Shouting that politicians are out of touch only shows how out of touch the shouters are. I doubt that Kendall could take the party with her, which won't matter because she will not be elected. My question is what will happen to her after the election? Will she disappear without trace? Of course there is no Brown Mafia anymore, is it eratong under a different guise?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Genuinely hard to call because the polls are so static, but the professional commentators seem to think Thorning will edge it.

    *ahem*

    err.... Nick... really?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Toynbee is in full flow, attacking the Blairites, the bankers, and who knows what else. Something in that morning’s Daily Mail has caught her eye. “Hands up here if anyone has read the Daily Mail today?”

    Attending journalists shuffle uneasily in their seats, as do one or two members of the parliamentary Labour party. Just one hand goes up.

    “Who’s that?” one of the attending activists hisses to their neighbour.

    “I think it’s Liz Kendall.”

    “Who’s Liz Kendall?”


    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/i-didnt-see-any-point-pretending-profile-labour-leadership-candidate-liz-kendall
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    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
    I think people kill people because they are sociopathic and or desperate. If you embezzle millions how do you spend it without arousing suspicion? Taking bribes always seems like giving yourself up as a hostage to fortune to me.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I never heard it said that Cameron wasn't PM material, like Boris he genuinely believed that was his destiny. I'd much rather spend time with Burnham and I dislike Cameron as a politician but Burnham lacks the certain something required to lead labour to victory. 4 or 5 years is a long time, but the fact he is far from a certainty in a pretty poor field says it all.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
    Culture, transparency and zero tolerance are what matter.

    Rules are helpful, but if they become an end in themselves then they can become counterproductive as people play to the rules rather than the spirit of the legislation.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,978

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    Subdividing the electorate then trying to win with a rainbow type coalition within the Labour party is not a recipe for success.

    Labour will win when it realises that the interests of women, BME Britons, the WWC, Scotland, Wales and Middle England are actually fairly closely aligned. There is far more that unites us than divides us. It is putting together a coherent and believable set of policies that needs to be the priority for the new leader, not refighting the 2005-2010 parliament. It is why Kendall is the best candidate, with Andy Burnham second. Incidentally these two seem to get on well together, and I can see that Burnham may make a good shadow CoE. He was good as Chief Sec to the Treasury.

    Yes - spot on. New Labour was all about triangulation. That was an advance on class-based politics, but it was never a sustainable approach. Ed was New Labour, but without the insight. Labour needs to move on.

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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    The one thing to say about choosing Burnham is that he'd make the choice of EdM in 2010 look inspired. He is a bit like Michael Foot but without the intellect, humour or the communication skills. A loser.
    I like Kendall.
    Charles said:



    Genuinely hard to call because the polls are so static, but the professional commentators seem to think Thorning will edge it.

    *ahem*

    err.... Nick... really?
    "poll" is a four letter word. Just saying.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    edited June 2015

    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
    I think people kill people because they are sociopathic and or desperate. If you embezzle millions how do you spend it without arousing suspicion? Taking bribes always seems like giving yourself up as a hostage to fortune to me.
    In the old days, you bribed other people to stop them getting suspicious. ;-)

    ISTR a Russian spy in an American agency who got caught because of his spending patterns. Although I might have that confused with a Tom Clancy book ...

    Edit: ah, it was Ames:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Toms said:

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    The one thing to say about choosing Burnham is that he'd make the choice of EdM in 2010 look inspired. He is a bit like Michael Foot but without the intellect, humour or the communication skills. A loser.
    I like Kendall.
    Charles said:



    Genuinely hard to call because the polls are so static, but the professional commentators seem to think Thorning will edge it.

    *ahem*

    err.... Nick... really?
    "poll" is a four letter word. Just saying.
    It just struck me as being rather reminiscent of some of Nick's musings earlier this year (no movement, minds made up, tick tock, etc)
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,741
    kle4 said:

    I asked some local members who they were supporting last night. No clear picture, and some strong anti views against Liz and Yvette. I'm still an undecided voter.

    Out of interest, is there anyone you really wish had stood but did not?
    Sorry for late response - just had my porridge!

    I would like to see a proper left wing candidate standing, just to give us a wider choice. I don't think I really know enough about people like Jarvis to say whether or not they would be any better than those who are standing.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608

    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
    I think people kill people because they are sociopathic and or desperate. If you embezzle millions how do you spend it without arousing suspicion? Taking bribes always seems like giving yourself up as a hostage to fortune to me.
    In the old days, you bribed other people to stop them getting suspicious. ;-)

    ISTR a Russian spy in an American agency who got caught because of his spending patterns. Although I might have that confused with a Tom Clancy book ...
    Aldrich Ames

    The CIA finally focused on Ames after it realized that despite a salary of only $60,000, Ames had been able to afford:

    A $540,000 house in Arlington, Virginia, paid for in cash;[30]
    A $50,000 Jaguar automobile;[31]
    Home remodeling and redecoration costs of $99,000;[30]
    Monthly phone bills exceeding $6,000, mostly calls by Ames's wife to her family in Bogotá, Colombia;
    Tailored suits that replaced Ames's former "bargain basement" clothes, conspicuously finer than those of his CIA colleagues; and
    Premium credit cards whose minimum monthly payment exceeded his monthly salary.[32]

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames

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    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    edited June 2015

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall is electoral suicide akin to Clegg, the Labour party would cease to be relevant. If you end up with Tory policy with nuances then people will just vote for the real thing or a genuine alternative as the Lib Dems have found

    Do you not think that elections are won in the centre ground?
    Cameron won having been forced to/allowed to run a centrist government. I'd suggest that the LibDems lost out and the Tories benefitted because people thought that a Labour/SNP government was likely and they didn't want that.
    The libdems lost out because they attacked the Tories all the while they were in government with them, instead of pointing out (by their terms) that the coalition together was a good government and the future lay in more of the same.They were not prepared to dilute libdemism as part of the price for diluting conservatism.
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Based on my record of judging labour leaders it seems to me that Burnham is by far the most awful, so he's probably the best.

    Kinnock is the first one i remember, he seemed genuine enough, likeable but a bit gaffe-prone. Impressive against Militant which was in theory good for the centre ground vote. Smith annoyed me, seemed too sanctimonious. Blair was just always 100% repulsive to me. So they declined over time in my estimation

    yet electorally the reverse was true (or polls-wise at least in Smith's case). So I am Rogerdamus on Labour leaders!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited June 2015
    @jamesmatthewsky: Andy #Coulson acquitted of perjury at his Scottish trial @SkyNews

    This post brought to you by NewsSense™
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    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    grahambc1 said:

    Kendall won't appeal to those lost to SNP or Green and probably not to those lost to UKIP, nor will she attract those who don't vote, Burnham is the best at attracting the White working class men and at challenging the narative that they are all the same.

    Subdividing the electorate then trying to win with a rainbow type coalition within the Labour party is not a recipe for success.

    Labour will win when it realises that the interests of women, BME Britons, the WWC, Scotland, Wales and Middle England are actually fairly closely aligned. There is far more that unites us than divides us. It is putting together a coherent and believable set of policies that needs to be the priority for the new leader, not refighting the 2005-2010 parliament. It is why Kendall is the best candidate, with Andy Burnham second. Incidentally these two seem to get on well together, and I can see that Burnham may make a good shadow CoE. He was good as Chief Sec to the Treasury.
    If Kendall gets er... blattered then that's it then for you being tempted to vote Labour I guess. Would the Tory party led by the son of a Rochdale bus driver tempt you?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @afneil: PM's former director of communications Andy Coulson cleared of lying in court after a Scottish judge threw out charges of alleged perjury.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Scott_P said:

    @jamesmatthewsky: Andy #Coulson acquitted of perjury at his Scottish trial @SkyNews

    This post brought to you by NewsSense™

    tim?

    Where are you tim?

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/03/andy-coulson-cleared-of-perjury-in-scottish-court
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Breaking: Interpol issues red notices (alert) for four FIFA officials, including Jack Warner.

    I really need to get some more popcorn.

    This is not a story about football - or at least that is only the backdrop. It is a story about money and greed and hubris. Like all the best stories. There will be plenty of others caught up in it before it's over, I'll bet.
    I've got a little philosophy about this. People will kill someone for a few hundred quid. When people deal with figures of millions, greed is such that many will be tempted to enrich themselves. Preferably legally, but some will do it illegally.

    Therefore when you have anything that deals with large sums of money - whether it is sport, banking, politics, business - you need internal systems and rules, and external openness, audits and clarity, to try to deter people from committing fraud. I'd also add equality to that list, as cliques seem to be a significant problem.

    Sadly, many of the very largest organisations, and especially international ones, take exactly the opposite view that their dealings need to be kept secret.
    Culture, transparency and zero tolerance are what matter.

    Rules are helpful, but if they become an end in themselves then they can become counterproductive as people play to the rules rather than the spirit of the legislation.
    I am not involved in the banking or finance industries, and have little direct knowledge of them, but is your last sentence really true?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    So I am Rogerdamus on Labour leaders!

    Oi!

    Get in line!

    Some of us thought Brown would be an improvement on Blair......
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Jessop, that line of Mr. Charles reminds me of badly drafted laws (cf anti-terrorism legislation being used by Brown against Iceland, or the rozzers using RIPA against the press all the time).
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