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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Richard Tyndall on “Laying the groundwork for an ‘Out’ vote

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Comments

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Well written, but throughly depressing article.

    Why depressing Jonathan? Serious question. I had always considered you an 'IN' person so would have thought that the uphill struggle being faced by 'OUT' would have perhaps lightened your mood a little :-)
    Hi Richard!

    To be clear I think it's a really good piece and I am behind anyone 100% who has the balls to put their thoughts up here to be shot down. Well done!

    I simply find it depressing because this EU debate, which will dominate for the next two years, is a long way from the politics that gets me excited. It is inherently backward looking.

    The idea that Westminster is some paragon of democratic virtue is absurd. The current parliament is the worst and arguably the least representative I can remember.


    In a rough and ready way it is fairly representative. Right and left wing MPs are represented in rough proportion to vote shares.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    Tim_B said:

    ESPN had wall to wall coverage of the FIFA leadership election, which was incredible. Except for the events of last Wednesday the event would have gotten a line on the crawler at best.

    How baffled are Americans (generally) about the election result?

    Looking forward to Jon Stewart's take...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article on page 3 of today's Times about the way in which the British Library is being taken over by students wanting somewhere nice to revise for their exams which has comfortable seats and fast WiFi. So many of them are going there that there's not much room left for the sort of researchers the library is supposed to be for.

    British Library being used by students shocker.


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    What are the odds on IN v OUT at the moment svp?

    I don't know what the betting is.

    Personally, I'd say 4-1 in favour of In.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    I think you're wrong on this. You only have to look at the treatment Carswell received this week to know which side will try to intimidate their opponents.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    edited May 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Well written, but throughly depressing article.

    Why depressing Jonathan? Serious question. I had always considered you an 'IN' person so would have thought that the uphill struggle being faced by 'OUT' would have perhaps lightened your mood a little :-)
    Hi Richard!

    To be clear I think it's a really good piece and I am behind anyone 100% who has the balls to put their thoughts up here to be shot down. Well done!

    I simply find it depressing because this EU debate, which will dominate for the next two years, is a long way from the politics that gets me excited. It is inherently backward looking.

    The idea that Westminster is some paragon of democratic virtue is absurd. The current parliament is the worst and arguably the least representative I can remember.


    In a rough and ready way it is fairly representative. Right and left wing MPs are represented in rough proportion to vote shares.
    Nah, don't buy that argument at all. 3.8M votes to 1 MP. It's broken.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.


    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.
    Omnium said:

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.


    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Plato said:

    I subscribe to Netflix and Amazon Prime...

    BBC’s online television service has enjoyed years of successful growth
    But viewing figures plummeted by 72million a month from high last year
    Many stopped using service as much after BBC axed Jeremy Clarkson
    Experts said that iPlayer’s popularity is waning thanks to stiff competition from Netflix, Amazon Prime Instant Video and other streaming services


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bYffvPAj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    This is the real risk for the BBC. Unless they commercialise quickly and make a success of this business model then they will become irrelevant to the future media landscape. We will lose an opportunity to create a UK based major player if we renew the charter along 'business as usual' lines.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2015
    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article on page 3 of today's Times about the way in which the British Library is being taken over by students wanting somewhere nice to revise for their exams which has comfortable seats and fast WiFi. So many of them are going there that there's not much room left for the sort of researchers the library is supposed to be for.

    British Library being used by students shocker.


    It didn't used to be colonised by enormous number of students. It's a new development in the last five years or so.

    I noticed it myself recently when I went for a drink in the cafe and struggled to find anywhere to sit. People were obviously sitting there all day on their laptops.

    It was a bit anti-social IMO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited May 2015
    AndyJS I know a few librarians and archivists at the British Library, personally I think if you are not using any of the Library's books or records for your research, but just use it to revise in, you should have to pay a small fee, maybe 50p an hour, it is not a university or school library
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Plato said:

    I subscribe to Netflix and Amazon Prime...

    BBC’s online television service has enjoyed years of successful growth
    But viewing figures plummeted by 72million a month from high last year
    Many stopped using service as much after BBC axed Jeremy Clarkson
    Experts said that iPlayer’s popularity is waning thanks to stiff competition from Netflix, Amazon Prime Instant Video and other streaming services


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bYffvPAj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    This is the real risk for the BBC. Unless they commercialise quickly and make a success of this business model then they will become irrelevant to the future media landscape. We will lose an opportunity to create a UK based major player if we renew the charter along 'business as usual' lines.

    iplayer should be a subscription service, so foreigners cough up, while Brits just need to put in their tv licence number.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Plato said:

    I subscribe to Netflix and Amazon Prime...

    BBC’s online television service has enjoyed years of successful growth
    But viewing figures plummeted by 72million a month from high last year
    Many stopped using service as much after BBC axed Jeremy Clarkson
    Experts said that iPlayer’s popularity is waning thanks to stiff competition from Netflix, Amazon Prime Instant Video and other streaming services


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bYffvPAj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    This is the real risk for the BBC. Unless they commercialise quickly and make a success of this business model then they will become irrelevant to the future media landscape. We will lose an opportunity to create a UK based major player if we renew the charter along 'business as usual' lines.
    iplayer should be a subscription service, so foreigners cough up, while Brits just need to put in their tv licence number.


    Steps that might head the BBC into a subscription direction, probably scare the cr@p out of BBC executives.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    edited May 2015
    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.


    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay!), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
    Don't be an aubergine! Doubly insulting, as it's a foreign word.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Plato said:

    I subscribe to Netflix and Amazon Prime...

    BBC’s online television service has enjoyed years of successful growth
    But viewing figures plummeted by 72million a month from high last year
    Many stopped using service as much after BBC axed Jeremy Clarkson
    Experts said that iPlayer’s popularity is waning thanks to stiff competition from Netflix, Amazon Prime Instant Video and other streaming services


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bYffvPAj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    This is the real risk for the BBC. Unless they commercialise quickly and make a success of this business model then they will become irrelevant to the future media landscape. We will lose an opportunity to create a UK based major player if we renew the charter along 'business as usual' lines.
    iplayer should be a subscription service, so foreigners cough up, while Brits just need to put in their tv licence number.
    Steps that might head the BBC into a subscription direction, probably scare the cr@p out of BBC executives.Nah, they'll ignore that bit and use it to justify a hike in the licence fee.

    Joking aside, William's made one the strongest arguments for deep BBC reform I've heard in a while.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    MTimT said:

    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
    Don't be an aubergine! Doubly insulting, as it's a foreign word.
    Nice, but I think "you dozy eggplant" is more subtly abusive.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    AA Gill in the Times was very funny the other day - he said that BBC3 needed to work out what it was for bar the parents and probation officers of those who appeared on it. Epic! :smiley:
    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.


    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Do they taste like eggs? Do cheese plants taste like cheese?
    Anorak said:

    MTimT said:

    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
    Don't be an aubergine! Doubly insulting, as it's a foreign word.
    Nice, but I think "you dozy eggplant" is more subtly abusive.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2015
    Plato said:

    Do they taste like eggs? Do cheese plants taste like cheese?

    Anorak said:

    MTimT said:

    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
    Don't be an aubergine! Doubly insulting, as it's a foreign word.
    Nice, but I think "you dozy eggplant" is more subtly abusive.
    You should avoid catfish and pussy willow.

    This is great. An American young-earth creationist who is also a fossil hunter.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/29/fish_fossils_unearthed_by_creationist
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Love it!
    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    Do they taste like eggs? Do cheese plants taste like cheese?

    Anorak said:

    MTimT said:

    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'm looking forward to a pretty sensible if passionate debate about the pros and cons - and not the ridiculous SIndy discussions on here with cybernats claiming everything was up to them and everything they wanted, they'd get.

    @Richard_Tyndall article was a fine example of posing the issues without treating it like a cult.

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiet tonight, isn't it?

    There you go see. My first article and I have broken PB :-(
    We're just awestruck, Richard ;)

    Also struck by the dawning realisation that EU referendum coverage will make the Indyref look like a story of page 12 of the Barnsley Gazette.
    I think that you are likely to be disappointed! CyberNats are small fry compared to cyberKippers.
    Oi!
    You need to come up with a kipper equivalent of "turnip". Turnips are (a bit) yellow, like the SNP, so I guess you need something purple (fnar). "Don't be a beetroot" doesn't really cut it though. Ah-ha! "Red cabbage", but without the "red". Additional benefit of winding up the PC brigage. That's one thing sorted then.

    Now, about the panda thing...
    Don't be an aubergine! Doubly insulting, as it's a foreign word.
    Nice, but I think "you dozy eggplant" is more subtly abusive.
    You should avoid catfish and pussy willow.

    This is great. An American young-earth creationist who is also a fossil hunter.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/29/fish_fossils_unearthed_by_creationist
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    AndyJS said:

    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article on page 3 of today's Times about the way in which the British Library is being taken over by students wanting somewhere nice to revise for their exams which has comfortable seats and fast WiFi. So many of them are going there that there's not much room left for the sort of researchers the library is supposed to be for.

    British Library being used by students shocker.


    It didn't used to be colonised by enormous number of students. It's a new development in the last five years or so.

    I noticed it myself recently when I went for a drink in the cafe and struggled to find anywhere to sit. People were obviously sitting there all day on their laptops.

    It was a bit anti-social IMO.
    In the old coffee houses the tradition was I believe to put a couple of pennies on the bar to read the newspapers.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    AA Gill in the Times was very funny the other day - he said that BBC3 needed to work out what it was for bar the parents and probation officers of those who appeared on it. Epic! :smiley:

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.


    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,
    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    AA Gill in the Times was very funny the other day - he said that BBC3 needed to work out what it was for bar the parents and probation officers of those who appeared on it. Epic! :smiley:

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    AA Gill in the Times was very funny the other day - he said that BBC3 needed to work out what it was for bar the parents and probation officers of those who appeared on it. Epic! :smiley:

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



    Anyone watching The Game?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Janan Ganesh has written a provocative article:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f70e739c-048b-11e5-95ad-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3bYmqzBJB

    "This is what political hegemony looks like. Having defeated his opponents, Mr Cameron is bending them to his view of the world. Short of actually paying reparations to Conservative HQ, it is hard to see how Labour could be any more under his boot."

    "If personality is destiny, Mr Cameron will stay the sensible side of bug-eyed ideology. But he will still leave the British centre-ground some way to the right of where he found it in 2010, and without ever really intending to. Labour will splutter at this comparison but he evokes Attlee in one sense: he is not a radical so much as a shrewd manager of radicals. It was not Attlee himself but Aneurin Bevan, Hugh Dalton and other cabinet colleagues who did dramatic things with healthcare and welfare in the postwar years. Their prime minister supported, nudged and presided elegantly, but he tended not to initiate.

    Something similar is true now. Mr Cameron is not an obvious man of destiny. It is Michael Gove who threw his soul into schools reform as education secretary. It is George Osborne, the chancellor, who is restless for a trimmer state and a more liberal economy. It is Steve Hilton, once the prime minister’s closest counsel and now a public voice in his own right, who instilled this government’s impatience to shake things up."
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Not me - what's that about?

    I'm just starting on Peaky Blinders about English organised crime on Netflix.

    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    snip

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



    Anyone watching The Game?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    AA Gill in the Times was very funny the other day - he said that BBC3 needed to work out what it was for bar the parents and probation officers of those who appeared on it. Epic! :smiley:

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



    Ok, so you're back on my list of wise people. 'The Wire' is worth persevering with. I rate it above such classics as 'Lonesome Dove', and 'The Pallisers'.


  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:

    Not me - what's that about?

    I'm just starting on Peaky Blinders about English organised crime on Netflix.

    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    snip

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    I found that show rather slow going myself - what you could try is going to PBS in the US and downloading Hola.

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.



    Anyone watching The Game?
    I quite liked Peaky Blinders. The war hero as arch villain creates some interesting tensions.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Plato said:

    Not me - what's

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.





    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.







    Anyone watching The Game?



    It's a spy drama set in the 70's, started off cliched and slow but enjoying it now, last one next week.

    It seems the BBC realized how popular Spooks was, wanted to bring it back in some fashion so thought they'd go for a Life on Mars type 70's scenario.

    It's OK though, enjoyable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    edited May 2015
    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.


    If you gave up that early on The Wire, you would have missed out on Omar, a guy so cool he makes Usain Bolt seem like some gangling awkward pre-pubescent teen....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Will check it out. I'm rewatching Between The Lines too - I really like Neil Patterson in that. Golly, that show is old.

    Plato said:

    Not me - what's

    Loads of shared investment shows appear on PBS - all you need is the right looking IP address to watch them.

    Omnium said:

    snip

    I'd happily pay to have access to the BBC archives. I've found myself seeking out Youtube versions of BBC programmes from time to time. I'd much prefer to buy a dvd, or whatever. For example they are re-running a series called "Inside the Medieval Mind". I saw the first episode, and it justified my annual license fee on its own . I'd really like to be able buy the four episode series, so that I can watch it when I like - however I can't.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea.



    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.







    Anyone watching The Game?



    It's a spy drama set in the 70's, started off cliched and slow but enjoying it now, last one next week.

    It seems the BBC realized how popular Spooks was, wanted to bring it back in some fashion so thought they'd go for a Life on Mars type 70's scenario.

    It's OK though, enjoyable.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited May 2015


    Im going to quietly mention the one single most important applicationthat would change your life, for TV related things. Sickbeard.

    I shall say no more....
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    edited May 2015

    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    If UEFA have any balls, they'll tell FIFA to do one.

    I would presume the rhetoric from them will die down pretty quickly. They can spin that Blatter not winning in the first round was hugely encouraging and shows that Fifa and Blatter will have no choice but to take reform seriously from now on and so on and so forth, and so they they will stick around to see that things improve etc etc.

    Interesting that Prince Ali talked about people being 'brave enough' to support him.
    I wonder. I suspect that the European football associations will be coming under behind-the-scenes pressure from their national governments. Michel Platini looked to me like a man who was running ahead of the whip.
    Well exactly. Qatar 2022 is the obvious joke, but the real prize would be denying Putin Russia 2018.
    Russia is credible, I don't really mind that even disliking Putin. But Qatar, a step too far it has been suggested.
    Of course Russia is a credible (even overdue) host - but if the Swiss investigation finds that the tournament was awarded illegally then I think the opportunity to humiliate Putin will be very attractive to the USA in particular.
    Oh come on, you cannot expect Putin to have his eye on everyone, er can you?
    Prince Ali had a rotten ground game.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2015
    I think I'm just not big on *gritty* that's short on humour. The Wire just felt like a slog to watch and I couldn't see what was happening half the time either.

    I loved The Shield which was simply super and had me from the first show.

    Plato said:

    I ADORE I, Claudius - watched it a bunch of times, have the DVD and read the book.

    I'm a heretic, I don't like The Wire - far too much swearing and shot in Black-O-Vision. I gave in within a few shows. I really should try it again,

    Omnium said:

    Plato said:

    Ditto - if I could pay for just BBC4 - I probably would.

    Maybe something like iTunes would be good. TV license payers perhaps having an annual credit that they can use.

    Slow going! I'd have gone for 'elegantly paced and measured'. I've bought two books after watching the first episode.

    I know there are routes to get more TV, and PBS has good stuff. What I want though, and I'm sure you're in this camp too, is the best TV. I've hunted down all sorts of oddities, and some of those have become more widely available - Ripping Yarns (took me ages to get a couple of episodes), 'The Secret War' (Brilliant, and I want to pay - think it may be !), 'The Joy of Stats', and a couple of other things Hans Rosling has done.

    You get the idea

    I'm still befuddled by your "Slow going" comment! I've always thought you were a reasonable and wise person :)

    If I happen upon BBC3, or ITV then I get the impression that great big letters are slowly appearing on my screen - those being 'WTF' (what the.. , for those unfamiliar with the term)

    From time to time in the office we discuss the merits of TV. On the whole 'The Wire' wins, but I always maintain that the best ever series is 'I Claudius' - when someone comes over and shakes my hand for the recommendation then I'll know that person is headed for high things.

    If you gave up that early on The Wire, you would have missed out on Omar, a guy so cool he makes Usain Bolt seem like some gangling awkward pre-pubescent teen....
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    antifrank said:

    Janan Ganesh has written a provocative article:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f70e739c-048b-11e5-95ad-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3bYmqzBJB

    "This is what political hegemony looks like. Having defeated his opponents, Mr Cameron is bending them to his view of the world. Short of actually paying reparations to Conservative HQ, it is hard to see how Labour could be any more under his boot."

    "If personality is destiny, Mr Cameron will stay the sensible side of bug-eyed ideology. But he will still leave the British centre-ground some way to the right of where he found it in 2010, and without ever really intending to. Labour will splutter at this comparison but he evokes Attlee in one sense: he is not a radical so much as a shrewd manager of radicals. It was not Attlee himself but Aneurin Bevan, Hugh Dalton and other cabinet colleagues who did dramatic things with healthcare and welfare in the postwar years. Their prime minister supported, nudged and presided elegantly, but he tended not to initiate.

    Something similar is true now. Mr Cameron is not an obvious man of destiny. It is Michael Gove who threw his soul into schools reform as education secretary. It is George Osborne, the chancellor, who is restless for a trimmer state and a more liberal economy. It is Steve Hilton, once the prime minister’s closest counsel and now a public voice in his own right, who instilled this government’s impatience to shake things up."

    If I was a labour supporter i would find that article more depressing than the actual election results.

    How do Labour match the Conservatives on the Right when they have so much active competition on the left? The SNPgasm might subside somewhat, but support wont trickle back to Labour pitching a shade to the left of the Conservatives.

    This is far bigger than 2010. Speaking to a con MP today, the atmosphere is very different to 2010. A genuine buzz.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    D'Angelo was the best character in the show...

    Funniest line in show from the:
    James 'Jimmy' McNulty: No name, huh? Well, for now, we'll just call you Boris.
    Sergei 'Serge' Malatov: Boris. Why always Boris?
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TV is a funny thing - I watched Breaking Bad the first time and loathed Jessie Pinkman. The second time I rather liked him and didn't find him so childish. I came to really dislike Skyler when the first time I'd largely ignored her.

    I didn't think much of The Sopranos overall - some great bits - but far too much padding and going nowhere too often. I certainly wouldn't watch it again which is my yardstick for a great show.

    I loved Sons of Anarchy and bought it.
    notme said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    D'Angelo was the best character in the show...

    Funniest line in show from the:
    James 'Jimmy' McNulty: No name, huh? Well, for now, we'll just call you Boris.
    Sergei 'Serge' Malatov: Boris. Why always Boris?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    If UEFA have any balls, they'll tell FIFA to do one.

    I would presume the rhetoric from them will die down pretty quickly. They can spin that Blatter not winning in the first round was hugely encouraging and shows that Fifa and Blatter will have no choice but to take reform seriously from now on and so on and so forth, and so they they will stick around to see that things improve etc etc.

    Interesting that Prince Ali talked about people being 'brave enough' to support him.
    I wonder. I suspect that the European football associations will be coming under behind-the-scenes pressure from their national governments. Michel Platini looked to me like a man who was running ahead of the whip.
    Well exactly. Qatar 2022 is the obvious joke, but the real prize would be denying Putin Russia 2018.
    Russia is credible, I don't really mind that even disliking Putin. But Qatar, a step too far it has been suggested.
    Of course Russia is a credible (even overdue) host - but if the Swiss investigation finds that the tournament was awarded illegally then I think the opportunity to humiliate Putin will be very attractive to the USA in particular.
    Oh come on, you cannot expect Putin to have his eye on everyone, er can you?
    Prince Ali had a rotten ground game.
    Russia 2018 will be great. Russian fans are serious ultras.

    I am planning a road trip.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    antifrank said:

    If I were in charge of the OUT campaign, I would campaign under the slogan "Not Good Enough", arguing that the terms that David Cameron had negotiated were inadequate and advocate a No vote on the basis that Britain would then have a mandate to trigger its exit clause in order to get the opportunity to negotiate better terms over the following two year period. That way you scoop up not just the headbanging BOOers but also quite a lot of the persuadables who might otherwise not take a leap of faith.

    I am afraid I am not persuaded by your logic. Voting to leave in the hope of being able to do better trying to get back in?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, dramatic, compelling, exquisitely put together television...that I have not rewatched in many many years. Re-watch value is certainly not the most crucial factor in the worth or quality of a show, and of course individual tastes will differ, but I just wonder why as much as I remember enjoying it I rarely feel the urge to watch it again, compared to other great or merely entertaining shows (not all entertaining shows being of objectively great quality) which grip me much more.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @Andy_JS and @Omnium = you may enjoy Portillo's State Secrets = think it's on BBC2 and iPlayer right now. Lots of fun stuff from the National Archives that's not been widely reported until now.

    Portillo's delivery style Is A BIT Thespian for MY Taste.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Just the one CLP nominating for the mayoralty tonight, I think.

    Eltham: Jowell/Khan

    I seem to have more declarations that other sources - but it's only plus or minus one:

    Jowell 33
    Khan 25
    Lammy 8
    Abbott 4
    Wolmar 2
    Thomas 1
    No preference 1
    Undecided or unknown 72
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    So why do we need formal legislative or judicial ties with the EU at all beyond those which we have with other friendly countries like Canada? That is my starting point for a discussion of these matters.

    We would continue trade links of some type with the countries of the EU whatever happened. I'm simply not convinced that avoiding possible discrimination on the 10-15% of our GDP that is exports to the EU is enough of a reason to do remain in the alphabet soup, especially when that discrimination would be counter-productive to them economically, and could infringe various WTO rules.

    As far as tariffs go, leaving the EU (whether or not we joined the EEA) would have essentially no impact on our terms of trade. We would have a free trade agreement with the EU, and we would almost certainly piggyback on agreements such as TTIP.
    @rcs1000 But ... but ... I thought 3 million jobs depended on us being in the EU and doing everything they say? You don't mean that Nick Clegg, Tony Blair and Paddy Pantsdown lied to us do you?

    Fwiw I have trudged through a good part of the academic literature on this, in part for my job and in part out of interest, and I must say that most of it agrees with you. Even the EU's own study only showed a net benefit of the Single Market of something like 0.5% of GDP.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm still trying to get past S3 E2 of The 4400 - it's gone from being amusingly bad to boring.

    What did you like about it so much? What am I missing here?
    kle4 said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, dramatic, compelling, exquisitely put together television...that I have not rewatched in many many years. Re-watch value is certainly not the most crucial factor in the worth or quality of a show, and of course individual tastes will differ, but I just wonder why as much as I remember enjoying it I rarely feel the urge to watch it again, compared to other great or merely entertaining shows (not all entertaining shows being of objectively great quality) which grip me much more.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Indeed.

    OT I must ask is that a Disney bunny avatar? Or Watership Down? It looks really familiar, but I can't place where it comes from.

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    lefties going into meltdown mode on CIF over Owen Jones latest article. I particularly liked this one....

    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/attack-douglas-carswell-ukip-austerity
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
    Curious, because his position on the contemporary political spectrum was easily as left as Foot was in his day. Just because you are left wing though, doesnt mean you have to consider the Deficit as some abstract concept. The numbers need to add up wherever you are on the spectrum. That isnt Toryism, thats good governance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited May 2015
    Plato said:

    I'm still trying to get past S3 E2 of The 4400 - it's gone from being amusingly bad to boring.

    What did you like about it so much? What am I missing here?

    kle4 said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, dramatic, compelling, exquisitely put together television...that I have not rewatched in many many years. Re-watch value is certainly not the most crucial factor in the worth or quality of a show, and of course individual tastes will differ, but I just wonder why as much as I remember enjoying it I rarely feel the urge to watch it again, compared to other great or merely entertaining shows (not all entertaining shows being of objectively great quality) which grip me much more.
    Not my favourite season that. In all honesty put on the spot I find it hard to quantify why I liked it quite as much as I did. I liked the seemingly random powers plot generator, the 'heroes' being part of a government machine that was not exactly on the level at times vs the cultish elements of the 4400 centre, some other plot twists coming up in S3 which I thought gave an interesting spin on some of the shadier characters in the context of the mytharc of the future society trying to fix things.

    Acting, besides the Jordan Collier bloke, was not a strong suit of the series though.

    Really though the biggest reason may simply be I thought much of S4 was excellent (bar a couple of plot threads) and it ended on a massive, excellent and game changing cliff hanger for characters and the setting, was set for a final season...then the writer's strike happened. So it wrapped up at the moment of my maximum enjoyment.

    Fear not, usually my recommendations are as focused on criticial or more wide cult appeal as anyone else.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I missed this Netflix stat earlier - golly, what a huge increase in subscribers
    More than one in ten households are thought to have signed up to the American streaming service, helping it to amass 4.5million customers by summer last year, according to researcher by Digital TV service.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bZ9FdQSk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Plato said:

    Indeed.

    OT I must ask is that a Disney bunny avatar? Or Watership Down? It looks really familiar, but I can't place where it comes from.

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
    I shamelessly copied it from a random website - I doubt it's anything in particular. But these sort of stock images crop up, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it somewhere now!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Plato said:

    I missed this Netflix stat earlier - golly, what a huge increase in subscribers

    More than one in ten households are thought to have signed up to the American streaming service, helping it to amass 4.5million customers by summer last year, according to researcher by Digital TV service.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bZ9FdQSk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    I signed up recently in order to watch House of Cards but haven't got round to watching it yet. Saw the first episode on a flight a few months ago.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Plato said:

    @Andy_JS and @Omnium = you may enjoy Portillo's State Secrets = think it's on BBC2 and iPlayer right now. Lots of fun stuff from the National Archives that's not been widely reported until now.

    Portillo's delivery style Is A BIT Thespian for MY Taste.

    Thanks Plato.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The random superpowers are the only bit I like. It's rather fun.

    Generally I hate witches in plots as they can make it up as they go along - deus ex machina style. Here the 4400 didn't resort to that too often which I give it props for.

    Did you ever try that show set in the Antarctic research lab? I've forgotten its title but I think it's still running now? Has some evil Oriental looking bloke in charge and a twin brother? That had great potential but totally lost its own plot.
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    I'm still trying to get past S3 E2 of The 4400 - it's gone from being amusingly bad to boring.

    What did you like about it so much? What am I missing here?

    kle4 said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard work getting your ear in for the first few episodes. But it was well worth the mass of awards. The first 3 series are as fine as TV gets.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, dramatic, compelling, exquisitely put together television...that I have not rewatched in many many years. Re-watch value is certainly not the most crucial factor in the worth or quality of a show, and of course individual tastes will differ, but I just wonder why as much as I remember enjoying it I rarely feel the urge to watch it again, compared to other great or merely entertaining shows (not all entertaining shows being of objectively great quality) which grip me much more.
    Not my favourite season that. In all honesty put on the spot I find it hard to quantify why I liked it quite as much as I did. I liked the seemingly random powers plot generator, the 'heroes' being part of a government machine that was not exactly on the level at times vs the cultish elements of the 4400 centre, some other plot twists coming up in S3 which I thought gave an interesting spin on some of the shadier characters in the context of the mytharc of the future society trying to fix things.

    Acting, besides the Jordan Collier bloke, was not a strong suit of the series though.

    Fear not, usually my recommendations are as focused on criticial or more wide cult appeal as anyone else.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    antifrank said:

    Janan Ganesh has written a provocative article:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f70e739c-048b-11e5-95ad-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3bYmqzBJB

    "This is what political hegemony looks like. Having defeated his opponents, Mr Cameron is bending them to his view of the world. Short of actually paying reparations to Conservative HQ, it is hard to see how Labour could be any more under his boot."

    "If personality is destiny, Mr Cameron will stay the sensible side of bug-eyed ideology. But he will still leave the British centre-ground some way to the right of where he found it in 2010, and without ever really intending to. Labour will splutter at this comparison but he evokes Attlee in one sense: he is not a radical so much as a shrewd manager of radicals. It was not Attlee himself but Aneurin Bevan, Hugh Dalton and other cabinet colleagues who did dramatic things with healthcare and welfare in the postwar years. Their prime minister supported, nudged and presided elegantly, but he tended not to initiate.

    Something similar is true now. Mr Cameron is not an obvious man of destiny. It is Michael Gove who threw his soul into schools reform as education secretary. It is George Osborne, the chancellor, who is restless for a trimmer state and a more liberal economy. It is Steve Hilton, once the prime minister’s closest counsel and now a public voice in his own right, who instilled this government’s impatience to shake things up."

    I think that's actually spot on.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    notme said:

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
    Curious, because his position on the contemporary political spectrum was easily as left as Foot was in his day. Just because you are left wing though, doesnt mean you have to consider the Deficit as some abstract concept. The numbers need to add up wherever you are on the spectrum. That isnt Toryism, thats good governance.
    So, if you want my opinion:

    Miliband adopted Tory language.

    He talked of the need to cut the deficit, not make public services more effective.

    He talked of being "as tough as the Tories on welfare" (copyright Reeves), not about protecting legitimate claimants and the system from abuse.

    He talked too much of a recovery that wasn't benefitting the poorest, and too little of a recession that was continuing as far as people were concerned.

    Those are the same policy positions, articulated differently.

    This is what gave the impression to those supporters that he as too right-wing.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2015

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.

    Couldn't agree more. Most of the vintage BBC shows I'd like to see are never repeated because they're too obscure or quirky.

    For example when I was about 6 years old my favourite programme was a show on BBC called Bodymatters presented by three doctors including Graeme Garden of Goodies fame. As far as I know this has never been shown again, probably because it was very 80s and also because the medical advice probably became out-of-date fairly quickly. I'd love to be able to watch a few of the episodes again to see what it's like:

    http://www.tv-ark.org.uk/mivana/mediaplayer.php?id=86d296985034dedc01f911eda10a0eb3&media=bodymatters1986&type=mp4
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    If UEFA have any balls, they'll tell FIFA to do one.

    I would presume the rhetoric from them will die down pretty quickly. They can spin that Blatter not winning in the first round was hugely encouraging and shows that Fifa and Blatter will have no choice but to take reform seriously from now on and so on and so forth, and so they they will stick around to see that things improve etc etc.

    Interesting that Prince Ali talked about people being 'brave enough' to support him.
    I wonder. I suspect that the European football associations will be coming under behind-the-scenes pressure from their national governments. Michel Platini looked to me like a man who was running ahead of the whip.
    Well exactly. Qatar 2022 is the obvious joke, but the real prize would be denying Putin Russia 2018.
    Russia is credible, I don't really mind that even disliking Putin. But Qatar, a step too far it has been suggested.
    Of course Russia is a credible (even overdue) host - but if the Swiss investigation finds that the tournament was awarded illegally then I think the opportunity to humiliate Putin will be very attractive to the USA in particular.
    Oh come on, you cannot expect Putin to have his eye on everyone, er can you?
    Prince Ali had a rotten ground game.
    Russia 2018 will be great. Russian fans are serious ultras.

    I am planning a road trip.

    Try to watch the footage of the recent Belgrade derby, only a few weeks ago and on You Tube.

    Completely mad, if Russia 2018 is anything remotely like that then football will be finished.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    notme said:

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:

    If you want to understand Labour's problems, you could do worse than searching "Labour" on twitter.

    "Finding it hard to believe that @andyburnhammp has sold out too. There is no hope for #Labour. And my dad is spinning in his grave :-("

    "We didn't leave labour, they left us" A repetitive consensus amongst Labour voters, & I fear until #Labour understand THIS they are doomed.

    etc. etc. just so many

    Plus those who point out they need to win Tory votes...

    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.
    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
    Curious, because his position on the contemporary political spectrum was easily as left as Foot was in his day. Just because you are left wing though, doesnt mean you have to consider the Deficit as some abstract concept. The numbers need to add up wherever you are on the spectrum. That isnt Toryism, thats good governance.
    In what way? What policies (as opposed to rhetoric) did Miliband have which were even as left-wing as Blair's policies?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    edited May 2015
    Moses_ said:

    lefties going into meltdown mode on CIF over Owen Jones latest article. I particularly liked this one....

    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/attack-douglas-carswell-ukip-austerity

    Labour is doomed to circle the plug hole whilst ever it allows Owen Jones to pontificate on its behalf.

    The first Labour leadership contender to brand him a "shallow twat who has nothing to say, but says it anyway" would be one worth watching carefully.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    notme said:

    Plato said:

    The SNP are keeping Labour totally distracted right now. Definitely time to land grab whilst we can in the Blue Team.

    notme said:



    Conservatives had the same problem in 2000+. William Hague recalled about the conversations he had which started "if we only did XYX, we would be back in power for sure"

    XYZ usually involved some very hard line right wing position that was desperately important to them, but not much to the general voter.

    I agree; and in the ruins of a defeat it is always difficult to find the makings of a victory. But it would be difficult to overestimate the mess the Labour Party will be at least until their new leader takes charge. Cameron should really press home his advantage: there is no official opposition at all.

    It's not just the SNP. Whilst many in party will say that Miliband was the left-wing candidate who lost (Burnham, Kendall), supporters draw the opposite conclusion: Miliband talked the Tory talk and lost.
    Curious, because his position on the contemporary political spectrum was easily as left as Foot was in his day. Just because you are left wing though, doesnt mean you have to consider the Deficit as some abstract concept. The numbers need to add up wherever you are on the spectrum. That isnt Toryism, thats good governance.
    So, if you want my opinion:

    Miliband adopted Tory language.

    He talked of the need to cut the deficit, not make public services more effective.

    He talked of being "as tough as the Tories on welfare" (copyright Reeves), not about protecting legitimate claimants and the system from abuse.

    He talked too much of a recovery that wasn't benefitting the poorest, and too little of a recession that was continuing as far as people were concerned.

    Those are the same policy positions, articulated differently.

    This is what gave the impression to those supporters that he as too right-wing.
    And an exit poll last week found people said Miliband wasn't tough enough on big businesses, and should tax the rich more.

    http://www.gqrr.com/uk-post-election-2

    What did them in was people saying they would spend too much and couldn't be trusted with the economy. It's competence that's their problem, not "ideology".
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    which part, other than the florid adjective selection, which i admit is a matter of personal taste, is untrue? any political system that hands over absolute power on a little over a third of the popular vote (and under a quarter of the electorate) is indefensible and unsustainable. And yes, this was just as true in 2005. It wont last but the Tories will drag this zombie voting system as far as they can take it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    HoCards is superb
    AndyJS said:

    Plato said:

    I missed this Netflix stat earlier - golly, what a huge increase in subscribers

    More than one in ten households are thought to have signed up to the American streaming service, helping it to amass 4.5million customers by summer last year, according to researcher by Digital TV service.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bZ9FdQSk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    I signed up recently in order to watch House of Cards but haven't got round to watching it yet. Saw the first episode on a flight a few months ago.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    JWisemann said:

    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    which part, other than the florid adjective selection, which i admit is a matter of personal taste, is untrue? any political system that hands over absolute power on a little over a third of the popular vote (and under a quarter of the electorate) is indefensible and unsustainable. And yes, this was just as true in 2005. It wont last but the Tories will drag this zombie voting system as far as they can take it.

    A thin majority in the lower chamber and a minority in the upper chamber is a long way from 'absolute power'.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Loved that show too.
    AndyJS said:

    THE BBC needs its entire library or pretty much anything worth watching on I player. For years they stiffed us with 7 days so we missed stuff, now the world has moved on and the BBC is offering 12 months.

    There needs to be a dual service, one for LCD and one with the good stuff.

    Couldn't agree more. Most of the vintage BBC shows I'd like to see are never repeated because they're too obscure or quirky.

    For example when I was about 6 years old my favourite programme was a show on BBC called Bodymatters presented by three doctors including Graeme Garden of Goodies fame. As far as I know this has never been shown again, probably because it was very 80s and also because the medical advice probably became out-of-date fairly quickly. I'd love to be able to watch a few of the episodes again to see what it's like:

    http://www.tv-ark.org.uk/mivana/mediaplayer.php?id=86d296985034dedc01f911eda10a0eb3&media=bodymatters1986&type=mp4
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Watching Yvette on Newsnight. I would not be unhappy if she wins. Her answer on the deficit is outstandingly bad
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited May 2015


    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate. He expressed his admiration for Hollande's France. He attacked big business and media ownership without any kind of concern for their retaliation. He relentlessly opposed austerity. In fact his opposition to austerity, and his refusal to admit the government he was a part of spent too much was his downfall.

    He was vague on a lot of things because, quite honestly, there aint going to be much milk and honey about any time soon.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    Scott_P said:

    Watching Yvette on Newsnight. I would not be unhappy if she wins. Her answer on the deficit is outstandingly bad

    Perhaps she has learnt everything she knows about economics over the breakfast table....?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    Plato said:

    HoCards is superb

    AndyJS said:

    Plato said:

    I missed this Netflix stat earlier - golly, what a huge increase in subscribers

    More than one in ten households are thought to have signed up to the American streaming service, helping it to amass 4.5million customers by summer last year, according to researcher by Digital TV service.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bZ9FdQSk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    I signed up recently in order to watch House of Cards but haven't got round to watching it yet. Saw the first episode on a flight a few months ago.


    I seem to be a rare beast - the person who was distinctly "meh" about the remade House of Cards!
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    JWisemann said:

    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    which part, other than the florid adjective selection, which i admit is a matter of personal taste, is untrue? any political system that hands over absolute power on a little over a third of the popular vote (and under a quarter of the electorate) is indefensible and unsustainable. And yes, this was just as true in 2005. It wont last but the Tories will drag this zombie voting system as far as they can take it.

    A thin majority in the lower chamber and a minority in the upper chamber is a long way from 'absolute power'.
    And the alternative is for backroom deals. Or what? Some tiny minority holding the rest to ransom? Yawn. In contest after contest the electorate voted against being held to ransom.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Evening all,

    SICIFIFAP?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Plato said:


    Did you ever try that show set in the Antarctic research lab? I've forgotten its title but I think it's still running now? Has some evil Oriental looking bloke in charge and a twin brother? That had great potential but totally lost its own plot.

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    I'm ere?

    kle4 said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard worts.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, drare.
    N.
    Helix perhaps? Think it might be over now, it's on my 'to watch' list after I saw the first episode - a bit grim (without being colourful in other ways, which I usually like), but seemed well produced and tense.

    I recently watched Under the Dome on Amazon Prime - golly, there's a show that really feels like it wasn't expecting to get more than one season. Also the 'american tv year' type character developments - friends, enemies and loves made and lost and made again - become incredibly amusing when you realise scant weeks have passed in-universe.
    JWisemann said:

    It wont last but the Tories will drag this zombie voting system as far as they can take it.

    The worrying thought would be that when Labour win power back under the same system, will they be committed to changing it? They didn't the last time they had the power, and albeit when only one particular option was offered to change it slightly they were not united on it.

    Zombies can drag on for a long long time after all.

    An early good night to all
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    If UEFA have any balls, they'll tell FIFA to do one.

    I would presume the rhetoric from them will die down pretty quickly. They can spin that Blatter not winning in the first round was hugely encouraging and shows that Fifa and Blatter will have no choice but to take reform seriously from now on and so on and so forth, and so they they will stick around to see that things improve etc etc.

    Interesting that Prince Ali talked about people being 'brave enough' to support him.
    I wonder. I suspect that the European football associations will be coming under behind-the-scenes pressure from their national governments. Michel Platini looked to me like a man who was running ahead of the whip.
    Well exactly. Qatar 2022 is the obvious joke, but the real prize would be denying Putin Russia 2018.
    Russia is credible, I don't really mind that even disliking Putin. But Qatar, a step too far it has been suggested.
    Of course Russia is a credible (even overdue) host - but if the Swiss investigation finds that the tournament was awarded illegally then I think the opportunity to humiliate Putin will be very attractive to the USA in particular.
    Oh come on, you cannot expect Putin to have his eye on everyone, er can you?
    Prince Ali had a rotten ground game.
    Russia 2018 will be great. Russian fans are serious ultras.

    I am planning a road trip.

    Try to watch the footage of the recent Belgrade derby, only a few weeks ago and on You Tube.

    Completely mad, if Russia 2018 is anything remotely like that then football will be finished.
    I suspect the Russian plod will be rather heavy handed. They don't do softly-softly.

    Qatar will just be crap though.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If you like US historical TV shows - I really like the Mysteries Of The... series. There's several versions of it - at Castles, Museums, Hotels etc.

    All packed with lovely little anecdotes about various historical events, inventions or personalities.

    I think most are on Travel Channel or Pick
    AndyJS said:

    Plato said:

    @Andy_JS and @Omnium = you may enjoy Portillo's State Secrets = think it's on BBC2 and iPlayer right now. Lots of fun stuff from the National Archives that's not been widely reported until now.

    Portillo's delivery style Is A BIT Thespian for MY Taste.

    Thanks Plato.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Moses_ said:

    lefties going into meltdown mode on CIF over Owen Jones latest article. I particularly liked this one....

    "It's especially 'not the end of the matter' in a rotten electoral system that hands absolute victory to a party that a) garnered only 37% of the vote and on many day-to-day issues does not represent the majority view and b) used despicable lies and distortions, aided and abetted by their disgusting media friends and wealthy backers, to swing some of its votes."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/attack-douglas-carswell-ukip-austerity

    Labour is doomed to circle the plug hole whilst ever it allows Owen Jones to pontificate on its behalf.

    The first Labour leadership contender to brand him a "shallow twat who has nothing to say, but says it anyway" would be one worth watching carefully.
    Yea Yvette! Way to go!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    S3 is a bit peculiar. I was very sceptical about the remake but I was most impressed.

    Plato said:

    HoCards is superb

    AndyJS said:

    Plato said:

    I missed this Netflix stat earlier - golly, what a huge increase in subscribers

    More than one in ten households are thought to have signed up to the American streaming service, helping it to amass 4.5million customers by summer last year, according to researcher by Digital TV service.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102787/Has-Netflix-burst-iPlayer-s-bubble-Viewing-figures-fall-month-row-subscription-streaming-service-booms.html#ixzz3bZ9FdQSk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    I signed up recently in order to watch House of Cards but haven't got round to watching it yet. Saw the first episode on a flight a few months ago.
    I seem to be a rare beast - the person who was distinctly "meh" about the remade House of Cards!

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    But those were different times. The centre of gravity had changed. It's like saying Thatcher had higher rates of tax for most of her time in office, than Brown ever had. She had 60% higher rate and 30% basic rate for over eight years.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Is iZombie worth watching? I'm tempted and it's getting 8.0 on IMDb
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate. He expressed his admiration for Hollande's France. He attacked big business and media ownership without any kind of concern for their retaliation. He relentlessly opposed austerity. In fact his opposition to austerity, and his refusal to admit the government he was a part of spent too much was his downfall.

    He was vague on a lot of things because, quite honestly, there aint going to be much milk and honey about any time soon.

    If that was a reply to me: I agree with some.

    The only part I disagree with is austerity. He didn't really fight austerity - he accepted the need for a cut in public spending. Until polling day he challenged the Tories to say what they'd cut, not the fact they'd cut.

    As to the others, he had left-wing policies, but he was fighting on right-wing ground. He talked of Tory unfunded promises, not that they were spending money on the wrong things.



  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    notme said:

    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    But those were different times. The centre of gravity had changed. It's like saying Thatcher had higher rates of tax for most of her time in office, than Brown ever had. She had 60% higher rate and 30% basic rate for over eight years.
    Fine, but it's clearly nonsense to say Miliband was "as left-wing as Foot".
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Helix! That's it. Give it a go - I watched S1 and half of S2.
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:


    Did you ever try that show set in the Antarctic research lab? I've forgotten its title but I think it's still running now? Has some evil Oriental looking bloke in charge and a twin brother? That had great potential but totally lost its own plot.

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    I'm ere?

    kle4 said:

    The Wire made no compromises on its authentic Baltimore dialect and dialogue. It was hard worts.

    I find I've been reassessing my view of The Wire as the years go by. Some truly great, drare.
    N.
    Helix perhaps? Think it might be over now, it's on my 'to watch' list after I saw the first episode - a bit grim (without being colourful in other ways, which I usually like), but seemed well produced and tense.

    I recently watched Under the Dome on Amazon Prime - golly, there's a show that really feels like it wasn't expecting to get more than one season. Also the 'american tv year' type character developments - friends, enemies and loves made and lost and made again - become incredibly amusing when you realise scant weeks have passed in-universe.
    JWisemann said:

    It wont last but the Tories will drag this zombie voting system as far as they can take it.

    The worrying thought would be that when Labour win power back under the same system, will they be committed to changing it? They didn't the last time they had the power, and albeit when only one particular option was offered to change it slightly they were not united on it.

    Zombies can drag on for a long long time after all.

    An early good night to all
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Also, yes, Burnham's latest pronouncements could mean he's at serious risk of pissing off the Left of the party and leaking votes to Cooper.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    Blair liberalised the domestic energy market, removing price controls (that had existed for over fifteen years since privatisation of British Gas) and allowing the market to set the price. That is the very opposite of what Miliband proposed.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Danny565 said:

    notme said:

    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    But those were different times. The centre of gravity had changed. It's like saying Thatcher had higher rates of tax for most of her time in office, than Brown ever had. She had 60% higher rate and 30% basic rate for over eight years.
    Fine, but it's clearly nonsense to say Miliband was "as left-wing as Foot".
    I think you might have missed my point. I maybe didnt articulate it very well.

    Miliband is not as left as Foot was on an absolute scale, but he is in the same area of the spectrum in today's politics that Foot was in his day.

    He is as far to the left of todays centre, as Foot was of his centre in 1983.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited May 2015
    notme said:

    Danny565 said:

    notme said:

    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    But those were different times. The centre of gravity had changed. It's like saying Thatcher had higher rates of tax for most of her time in office, than Brown ever had. She had 60% higher rate and 30% basic rate for over eight years.
    Fine, but it's clearly nonsense to say Miliband was "as left-wing as Foot".
    I think you might have missed my point. I maybe didnt articulate it very well.

    Miliband is not as left as Foot was on an absolute scale, but he is in the same area of the spectrum in today's politics that Foot was in his day.

    He is as far to the left of todays centre, as Foot was of his centre in 1983.
    The public placed Miliband closer to the centre than Cameron the last time YouGov asked.

    http://labourlist.org/2014/12/red-ed-poll-shows-miliband-closer-to-the-centre-than-cameron/
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate. He expressed his admiration for Hollande's France. He attacked big business and media ownership without any kind of concern for their retaliation. He relentlessly opposed austerity. In fact his opposition to austerity, and his refusal to admit the government he was a part of spent too much was his downfall.

    He was vague on a lot of things because, quite honestly, there aint going to be much milk and honey about any time soon.

    If that was a reply to me: I agree with some.

    The only part I disagree with is austerity. He didn't really fight austerity - he accepted the need for a cut in public spending. Until polling day he challenged the Tories to say what they'd cut, not the fact they'd cut.

    As to the others, he had left-wing policies, but he was fighting on right-wing ground. He talked of Tory unfunded promises, not that they were spending money on the wrong things.



    Yes it was, i find the quoting system messes up after a half dozen responses. Very irritating.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Danny565 said:

    notme said:

    Danny565 said:

    notme said:



    But he talked about fixing prices in the rental market, fixing prices in the energy market, fixing prices in the railways and through a process of taking in rail franchises as they came up, effectively renationalising the railways. He talked of banning zero hours contracts, increasing minimum wage, abolishing the 'bedroom tax' reintroducing 50p top income tax rate.

    Blair also "intervened" in the energy market (windfall taxes), had higher taxation for the super-rich, and in opposition promised to end zero-hour contracts. And even the US (that hotbed of socialism that it is) has rent controls.

    On top of that, Blair proposed higher spending levels than Miliband did.
    But those were different times. The centre of gravity had changed. It's like saying Thatcher had higher rates of tax for most of her time in office, than Brown ever had. She had 60% higher rate and 30% basic rate for over eight years.
    Fine, but it's clearly nonsense to say Miliband was "as left-wing as Foot".
    Foot 209 seats
    Miliband 232 seats

    :lol:
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited May 2015

    The AV campaign tried to do politics without politicians and that didn't go well for them. Maybe there's ambitious Tory minister who could take a run at it?

    If you are an ambitious Tory minister and a committed Eurosceptic, resigning from the government to lead the OUT campaign would be a gutsy move. If you win the referendum you pretty much become PM, don't you?
    It's not quite a sure thing but you'd certainly be very well positioned. And you might even end up advancing your career if you lost; A lot (a majority?) of Tory supporters will have backed "out", and the next PM will want to show they're welcome in the tent.

    The only problem is that, in order not to show disloyalty and bad faith, you probably can't resign from the government until the renegotiation is complete. And that might be a bit too late.

    I see the problem - I wonder what the timescale looks like.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Barbara Castle in 1959:

    "The poverty and unemployment which we came into existence to fight have been largely conquered."
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2015
    It's a rather depressing thought, but the biggest factor in Liz Kendall's favour may be the fact that she's the only candidate with a southern accent. (She's originally from Watford).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Danny565 Earlier polls had Cameron closer and Miliband was seen as left of Labour, Cameron often more centrist than the Tories
This discussion has been closed.