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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two useful guides from Professor John Curtice on linking vo

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two useful guides from Professor John Curtice on linking vote shares to seats

The big thing with the Tories is the LD battleground. The weaker the yellows are then the more seats on a national swing basis that the blues should pick up. This is a bit at odds with the Ashcroft marginals polling which has been showing that the LDs have been doing a fair bit better in the constituencies they hold compared with the country as a whole.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Remember on this new thread, When frothing...think pink.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Smarmeron said:

    Remember on this new thread, When frothing...think pink.

    FPT: Yes, I suppose there is legal recourse and good legal recourse.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Second and out.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Smarmeron said:

    Remember on this new thread, When frothing...think pink.

    think Fink ?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I wonder whether the tories really need to take a chill pill here.

    They have ed where they want him. Perhaps his comments and this story are best ignored.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Well Mike you where correct about this

    Mike Smithson said: "'He's a dodgy Prime Minister surrounded by dodgy donors.' Great line from Ed which will be the one picked up by the bulletins."

    But not in a good way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    The courts decide the law, but the court that matters in politics is the court of public opinion...
  • The weaker the yellows are then the more seats on a national swing basis that the blues should pick up. This is a bit at odds with the Ashcroft marginals polling which has been showing that the LDs have been doing a fair bit better in the constituencies they hold compared with the country as a whole.

    This is because the weakness of the LDs elsewhere translates disproportionately into useless Labour votes. So for the same Con-Lab national (or even England-only) swing, Lab gain fewer marginals. (The fact that the LDs lose approximately the same number of seats to both Lab & Con helps keep the maths more tidy).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    edited February 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    The courts decide the law, but the court that matters in politics is the court of public opinion...

    I'm not sure that's strictly true.

    If Ed (or any other party leader) defamed a member of the public - All be it a rich one - And found himself being sued, I'd have thought the public would have their doubts his judgement...

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    But not in a good way.

    Actually if you read even the right wing newspapers, this is playing quite well for ed.

    Those of us who remember 1997 know how toxic sleaze is for the tories.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    edited February 2015
    taffys said:

    But not in a good way.

    Actually if you read even the right wing newspapers, this is playing quite well for ed.

    Those of us who remember 1997 know how toxic sleaze is for the tories.

    "Sleaze" was very bad for the Tories when MandyCampbell were at their best in the mid 90's.

    Unfortunately after 13 years of an even sleazier Labour government "sleaze" now hit's all parties as badly as each other....
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    taffys said:

    But not in a good way.

    Actually if you read even the right wing newspapers, this is playing quite well for ed.

    Those of us who remember 1997 know how toxic sleaze is for the tories.

    God this is complex.

    Now a man who claims to have paid his tax is classed as sleaze?

    If you ask Jo / Joe Public about money in Politics and sleaze around that money I think most will still have the default setting of Blair / Mandleson
  • taffys said:

    I wonder whether the tories really need to take a chill pill here.

    They have ed where they want him. Perhaps his comments and this story are best ignored.

    The Tories obviously want to shut the story down - regardless of the legality, or indeed the history, the perception won't play well for them.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    MaxPB.
    "Also, if you classify Man Group as a hedge fund you are beyond clueless."


    Reuters
    Jan 23, 2015 - Man Group is the world's biggest listed hedge fund firm with $72.3 billion
  • Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician. I admit I misjudged him - I thought he was decent but misguided and naive, but it's impossible to regard him as decent any more. Throwing smears around with the abandon he does is not the action of an honourable person.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Miliband could well be taking the piss and abusing Parliamentary Privilege.
  • saddened said:

    Well Mike you where correct about this

    Mike Smithson said: "'He's a dodgy Prime Minister surrounded by dodgy donors.' Great line from Ed which will be the one picked up by the bulletins."

    But not in a good way.

    Strong words from Ed Miliband. Now that the gauntlet has been thrown down by Lord Fink, Ed's on his honour to repeat his accusation outside parliament. See you outside, Ed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    Roger FPT
    Roger said:

    Isam

    "He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect".

    Spot on. This rather tawdry campaign probably accidental is working out better than anyone could imagine. Who would have guessed that these muti millionaire tax exiles would have such thin skin. This is something which is actually being talked about. No one seems to have realized that these people actually exist let alone that they're mostly under David Cameron's wing. I'm really beginning to wonder how far this thing can go. Could it actually win it for Ed?

    So you don't think it'll all be forgotten about by Friday then? ;)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    FPT. Isam

    "He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect".

    Spot on. This rather tawdry campaign probably accidental is working out better than anyone could imagine. Who would have guessed that these muti millionaire tax exiles would have such thin skin. This is something which is actually being talked about in cafe's and bars. No one seems to have realized that these people actually exist let alone that they're mostly under David Cameron's wing. I'm really beginning to wonder how far this thing can go. Could it actually win it for Ed?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Watch Ed mumble something about Tories and dodgy and not mention Fink...

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Ed wanted this fight I'm thinking, as much as Dave wanted the Greens in the debates to make them all "fairer".

    Naked political advantage - Btw Daily Mail's take on today is dreadful for Dave

    "Miliband was 'personally horrid to me', Cameron complains after being branded 'rotten' in volley of abuse during PMQs"

    Getting bullied by Ed Miliband - sweet Jesus.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Could John Curtice give us a what if...? for the LibDems polling 5% do you think? It seems much nearer to their polling of late. I take it the Tories would need a smaller lead than Labour....
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ow a man who claims to have paid his tax is classed as sleaze?

    This isn't rational, its emotional.

    Many people in Britain feel, rightly or wrongly, that whilst they suffer austerity, the rich continue to live the high life, and don;t pay their fair share.

    The tories have got to be careful here.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Speaking of tax, which we were, when do January Tax receipts get announced?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015

    saddened said:

    Well Mike you where correct about this

    Mike Smithson said: "'He's a dodgy Prime Minister surrounded by dodgy donors.' Great line from Ed which will be the one picked up by the bulletins."

    But not in a good way.

    Strong words from Ed Miliband. Now that the gauntlet has been thrown down by Lord Fink, Ed's on his honour to repeat his accusation outside parliament. See you outside, Ed.
    The downside for Labour is that behind the scenes, lawyers end up grinding their way through cash better spent on election campaigning.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    taffys said:

    But not in a good way.

    Actually if you read even the right wing newspapers, this is playing quite well for ed.

    Those of us who remember 1997 know how toxic sleaze is for the tories.

    You may end up being right, I was going on the fact that Labour claim Ed will honour his word and repeat the allegation outside parliament. That may prove to be less than honest.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Coincidently. HMRC has now started to talk to other authorities and intends to widen the scope of the enquiry.
    Obviously the matter was well in hand before this story broke around their heads.
    Heart of stone etc,?
  • Richard Nabavi - I am afraid this is not the first time. His willingness to trample over due process during the early days of the hacking affair was what first convinced me of his manifest unsuitability for office. The Syria vote put it beyond doubt. This is comparatively small beer but demonstrates once again that he will stop at nothing to secure what he perceives to be partisan advantage. He should not be let anywhere near the levers of power.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Have I got this right - a guy who worked for years in Switzerland was on a list of people who had a Swiss bank account? And Ed thought this would sink the Tories?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    I fink part of the problem for Ed is the same as that which tripped up Ken over Boris.

    Ed saw "Tory" and "Swiss Account" together and leapt to the obvious (to him) conclusion that the Tory must be being dodgy. He just couldn't conceive that there might be an innocent explanation.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Richard Nabavi - I am afraid this is not the first time. His willingness to trample over due process during the early days of the hacking affair was what first convinced me of his manifest unsuitability for office. The Syria vote put it beyond doubt. This is comparatively small beer but demonstrates once again that he will stop at nothing to secure what he perceives to be partisan advantage. He should not be let anywhere near the levers of power.

    I would agree he is the most tribal party leader since Gordon Brown. That worked well too.

    A leader acting primarily in party interest is not suited to leading the country, which no matter who wins is a mixture of different people deserving respect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    The problem for the Tories is, the guy Ed threw mud at my well be totally innocent and done everything right, but now we get another x days of this story, and the vested interest only have one target in mind...and it ain't Ed and his inheritance tax dodge or any of his interesting donors.

    Think about the Roger Bird sex scandal story, when it all came out, it was revealed it was lies told by a women who appears to be a total fantasist....but I bet that mud still stuck.

    The perception is Tories = Bankers, which is not a good one for them.

    Look at the BBC Headline..Miliband slams 'dodgy' PM in tax row...job done.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Ed saw "Tory" and "Swiss Account" together and leapt to the obvious (to him) conclusion that the Tory must be being dodgy.

    Many, many people in Britain feel that way, I reckon.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    edited February 2015

    Have I got this right - a guy who worked for years in Switzerland was on a list of people who had a Swiss bank account?

    Appears so.

    Apparently there is something wrong with this....

  • To put the second John Curtice chart into context, a 10 point lead is the lowest that any Scottish national poll has shown since 1st November. Even that would give the SNP about 36 or 37 seats. Curtice's poll-of-polls currently has a 20-point lead: off the scale of his graph!
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    The problem for the Tories is, the guy Ed threw mud at my well be totally innocent and done everything right, but now we get another x days and days of this story...

    Or it sinks out of view, and the lawyers rack up 6/7 figure bills behind the scenes.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    edited February 2015
    Has Ed overplayed his hand on this ?

    He could, but not yet imo.

    The story that's going to be bad news for Ed and is in the works is the tube strike in London. People are going to pay about as much attention to the fact the TUSC is running against Labour as to the technicalities of the Conservative party's donors tax affairs.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    taffys said:

    Ed saw "Tory" and "Swiss Account" together and leapt to the obvious (to him) conclusion that the Tory must be being dodgy.

    Many, many people in Britain feel that way, I reckon.

    Politician. I don't think Labour have a clean image on money
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Pulpstar said:

    Has Ed overplayed his hand on this ?

    He could, but not yet imo.

    The story that's going to be bad news for Ed and is in the works is the tube strike in London. People are going to pay about as much attention to the fact the TUSC is running against Labour as to the technicalities of the Conservative party's donors tax affairs.

    Perhaps Harman can have a chat with Steve Hedley in the back of her pink van?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    saddened said:

    Well Mike you where correct about this

    Mike Smithson said: "'He's a dodgy Prime Minister surrounded by dodgy donors.' Great line from Ed which will be the one picked up by the bulletins."

    But not in a good way.

    Strong words from Ed Miliband. Now that the gauntlet has been thrown down by Lord Fink, Ed's on his honour to repeat his accusation outside parliament. See you outside, Ed.
    The downside for Labour is that behind the scenes, lawyers end up grinding their way through cash better spent on election campaigning.
    Even the disparity in resources can be played for electoral advantage: 'The tories with all their tax-avoiding dodgy donors have over five times as much to spend on advertising than we do ...' Suddenly all the incoherent messaging of the last 12 months assumes a beautiful simplicity.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Scott_P said:

    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv

    "as soon as he has the opportunity"

    He could do it right now if he wanted too.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    The problem for the Tories is, the guy Ed threw mud at my well be totally innocent and done everything right, but now we get another x days and days of this story...

    Or it sinks out of view, and the lawyers rack up 6/7 figure bills behind the scenes.

    Don't lawyers tend to rack up huge sums... whatever is happening ;) ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    Scott_P said:

    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv

    What's stopping him. He has a twitter account....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    edited February 2015
    RN

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    I have very little sympathy for the Tories. It'll never make sense to anyone why someone with £180,000,000 can avoid tax when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038

    Scott_P said:

    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv

    "as soon as he has the opportunity"

    He could do it right now if he wanted too.

    Probably doing a bit of fact checking ;)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @MarkHopkins
    If he is going to do it publicly, then I assume several broadcasters will be offering him a spot on one of their programmes?
    Door step or living room, obvious choice?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Pulpstar said:

    The problem for the Tories is, the guy Ed threw mud at my well be totally innocent and done everything right, but now we get another x days and days of this story...

    Or it sinks out of view, and the lawyers rack up 6/7 figure bills behind the scenes.

    Don't lawyers tend to rack up huge sums... whatever is happening ;) ?
    Indeed. Who's got deeper pockets, Fink or Labour?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The SNP vote is structured very like the LibDem vote and, under FPTP, seat forecasts tend to be very unstable in the midrange.

    I am very cautious on how many seats the SNP will win.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    Roger said:

    RN

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    I have very little sympathy for the Tories. It'll never make sense to anyone why someone with £180,000,000 can avoid tax when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    You don't have any money stashed in "off shore" bank accounts then Roger?

    You never know with you champagne socialists living it up on the Cote D'Azure...

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv

    "as soon as he has the opportunity"

    He could do it right now if he wanted too.

    Probably doing a bit of fact checking ;)
    Talking of 'Fact Checking' -

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/cathy-newman-mosque_n_6620026.html
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher

    Those with the deepest pockets are the most righteous?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Roger said:

    when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    With the risk of opening a huge can of worms, the removal of a benefit is not a tax. It would be equivalent to me saying my parents were taxed when I became 18.
  • Roger said:

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    It doesn't depend on how you look at it all. Rooting out tax evaders, and clamping down on tax avoidance, is indeed fine. Making random accusations and smearing by association is not, under any circumstances, ever fine.

    The moral blindness of Labour supporters in this respect is astonishing, but presumably is a kind of rationalisation of the problem they have they don't actually have any coherent arguments against the Conservatives.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Will somebody doorstep him?

    @IsabelHardman: Labour source says Miliband will repeat allegations against Lord Fink in public as soon as he has the opportunity http://t.co/iTxYZTl8Rv

    "as soon as he has the opportunity"

    He could do it right now if he wanted too.

    Probably doing a bit of fact checking ;)
    Talking of 'Fact Checking' -

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/05/cathy-newman-mosque_n_6620026.html
    I suppose she could have been ushered to the door? Don't really see what a non-Muslim has to do in a mosque in the first place.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    With the risk of opening a huge can of worms, the removal of a benefit is not a tax. It would be equivalent to me saying my parents were taxed when I became 18.
    This is true, but politically it has been successfully portrayed as a "tax", the poll tax wasn't technically a tax either.
  • "As soon as he has the opportunity" meaning as soon as he has had the opportunity to discuss with his team what form of words he can use that insinuates something improper but is not actionable.

    The dangers for Fink here are (i) if Miliband makes a weasly statement that creates a stench but which doesn't give him anything to pursue; or (ii) if his earlier rebuttal is not the whole story. No reason to think that (ii) is the case.

    Politically I suspect Miliband won't mind this story running, because it is designed to appeal to people on the left, most of whom will side with Miliband on this irrespective of the facts. It's clear now that Miliband has no interest in appealing beyond his base and his strategy is to try to motivate them by fair means or foul. Hopefully it backfires and reignites the Green's faltering campaign, as at least they offer something genuinely different.
  • RodCrosby said:

    The SNP vote is structured very like the LibDem vote and, under FPTP, seat forecasts tend to be very unstable in the midrange..

    Surely the SNP vote is much less concentrated that the LibDem vote?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Roger said:

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    It doesn't depend on how you look at it all. Rooting out tax evaders, and clamping down on tax avoidance, is indeed fine. Making random accusations and smearing by association is not, under any circumstances, ever fine.

    The moral blindness of Labour supporters in this respect is astonishing, but presumably is a kind of rationalisation of the problem they have they don't actually have any coherent arguments against the Conservatives.
    The piece of paper remains blank.

    'Why should I vote for Labour?' '

    'Because the Tories are evil baby eaters'.

    'But what are your policies?'

    'The Tories are evil baby eaters'.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi
    Perhaps we were blinded by the smears against the unemployed, disabled, and powerless?
    Of course, they have never counted to you, only those who are "important" need defending.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    With the risk of opening a huge can of worms, the removal of a benefit is not a tax. It would be equivalent to me saying my parents were taxed when I became 18.
    This is true, but politically it has been successfully portrayed as a "tax", the poll tax wasn't technically a tax either.
    How wasn't it a tax?
  • philiph said:

    taffys said:

    Ed saw "Tory" and "Swiss Account" together and leapt to the obvious (to him) conclusion that the Tory must be being dodgy.

    Many, many people in Britain feel that way, I reckon.

    Politician. I don't think Labour have a clean image on money
    As Einstein said, it's all relative, and in the absence of evidence, most voters will think the Tories are bankrolled by dodgy tycoons and the gnomes of Zurich, even if some also think the same of Labour.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician. I admit I misjudged him - I thought he was decent but misguided and naive, but it's impossible to regard him as decent any more. Throwing smears around with the abandon he does is not the action of an honourable person.

    Pb tories are really very unpleasant people . I admit I misjudged them . I thought they were decent but misguided and naive but it is impossible to regard them as decent any more . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support . These are not the actions of honourable people .
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    GIN1138 said:


    Have I got this right - a guy who worked for years in Switzerland was on a list of people who had a Swiss bank account?

    Appears so.

    Apparently there is something wrong with this....

    Consider also the smear by association against Zac Goldsmith by the BBC in naming him. The guy and his family are beneficiaries of a trust set up (by the father?) for them in Switzerland. The Beeb should be sued. No impropriety has been proven and impropriety has been denied. I hold no brief for ZG but because he's rich he will get little sympathy but no justice. Typical Beeb and Guardian dirty tricks in support of a vacuous Labour Party.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    With the risk of opening a huge can of worms, the removal of a benefit is not a tax. It would be equivalent to me saying my parents were taxed when I became 18.
    This is true, but politically it has been successfully portrayed as a "tax", the poll tax wasn't technically a tax either.
    How wasn't it a tax?
    Wasn't it the "community charge" ?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Roger said:

    RN

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    I have very little sympathy for the Tories. It'll never make sense to anyone why someone with £180,000,000 can avoid tax when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    I'm not on a different page to you about the wealthy paying tax due, and am not a supporter of many avoidance schemes. There is an unpleasant odour when you can earn, he said picking random numbers, 10,000,000 and pay 50k tax, it shouldn't happen.

    I'll agree we have a problem with excessive wealth at one end of our scale and poverty at the other.

    I would be happy if the guy who earns 10,000,000 in a year pays between 4 and 5 million tax on his income. That would be the best solution as I see things. Getting to that point is the hard bit, because when you earn 10,000,000 you are very mobile.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician. I admit I misjudged him - I thought he was decent but misguided and naive, but it's impossible to regard him as decent any more. Throwing smears around with the abandon he does is not the action of an honourable person.

    Pb tories are really very unpleasant people . I admit I misjudged them . I thought they were decent but misguided and naive but it is impossible to regard them as decent any more . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support . These are not the actions of honourable people .
    Missing an 'alleged' there ;)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2015
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    Perhaps we were blinded by the smears against the unemployed, disabled, and powerless?
    Of course, they have never counted to you, only those who are "important" need defending.

    That's another good example of your moral blindness. Of course there aren't any such smears by senior Conservatives, as you will discover if you actually try to find one. But I'm sure you are genuinely convinced that there must be some.

    Your second sentence is revealingly offensive, BTW.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician. I admit I misjudged him - I thought he was decent but misguided and naive, but it's impossible to regard him as decent any more. Throwing smears around with the abandon he does is not the action of an honourable person.

    Pb tories are really very unpleasant people . I admit I misjudged them . I thought they were decent but misguided and naive but it is impossible to regard them as decent any more . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support . These are not the actions of honourable people .
    Have the LibDems returned the £2.4 million Michael Brown stole from clients, and donated to them?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @perdix
    It is extremely difficult to prove "impropriety" when the accused can just have a quiet agreement, and be granted immunity.
    Which is sort of the point really?
  • . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support .

    You damn yourself with your own words.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Pulpstar said:

    Ed wanted this fight I'm thinking, as much as Dave wanted the Greens in the debates to make them all "fairer".

    Naked political advantage - Btw Daily Mail's take on today is dreadful for Dave

    "Miliband was 'personally horrid to me', Cameron complains after being branded 'rotten' in volley of abuse during PMQs"

    Getting bullied by Ed Miliband - sweet Jesus.

    This may be the biggest event of the day. Cameron seems genuinely surprised by the personal attack, if he decides the gloves are off, it could get very messy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    philiph said:

    Roger said:

    RN

    Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician.

    It depends how you look at it. There are some who might say he is at last doing what politicians ought to have been doing for years and rooting out tax avoiders. Like a few of his attacks on vested interests he seems to be finally smoking these people out. They can no longer hide under the wings of their patrons because the public are now on to them.

    I have very little sympathy for the Tories. It'll never make sense to anyone why someone with £180,000,000 can avoid tax when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.

    I'm not on a different page to you about the wealthy paying tax due, and am not a supporter of many avoidance schemes. There is an unpleasant odour when you can earn, he said picking random numbers, 10,000,000 and pay 50k tax, it shouldn't happen.

    I'll agree we have a problem with excessive wealth at one end of our scale and poverty at the other.

    I would be happy if the guy who earns 10,000,000 in a year pays between 4 and 5 million tax on his income. That would be the best solution as I see things. Getting to that point is the hard bit, because when you earn 10,000,000 you are very mobile.
    Indeed, watch them leave the UK never to return (although some would argue this is a good thing).
  • Shouldn't this thread be about Dodgy-gate?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support .

    You damn yourself with your own words.
    The words were an almost exact parody of yours , You damned yourself .
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    saddened said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ed wanted this fight I'm thinking, as much as Dave wanted the Greens in the debates to make them all "fairer".

    Naked political advantage - Btw Daily Mail's take on today is dreadful for Dave

    "Miliband was 'personally horrid to me', Cameron complains after being branded 'rotten' in volley of abuse during PMQs"

    Getting bullied by Ed Miliband - sweet Jesus.

    This may be the biggest event of the day. Cameron seems genuinely surprised by the personal attack, if he decides the gloves are off, it could get very messy.

    PMQs - this time it's personal.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @MarkSenior
    Don't you just love the smell of bluster in the evening?
    ;-)
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited February 2015
    Yes he is quite right. However I did point out here months ago that the collapse of the Liberal Democrats was seriously eroding the electoral system bias in favour of Labour
  • saddened said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ed wanted this fight I'm thinking, as much as Dave wanted the Greens in the debates to make them all "fairer".

    Naked political advantage - Btw Daily Mail's take on today is dreadful for Dave

    "Miliband was 'personally horrid to me', Cameron complains after being branded 'rotten' in volley of abuse during PMQs"

    Getting bullied by Ed Miliband - sweet Jesus.

    This may be the biggest event of the day. Cameron seems genuinely surprised by the personal attack, if he decides the gloves are off, it could get very messy.

    PMQs - this time it's personal.

    Cameron v Miliband - whoever wins, we lose :)
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited February 2015
    @Roger

    'when a disabled person is taxed for having a spare room.'

    Can't recall you whining when the so called tax was introduced for the private rental sector by Labour.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Miliband is a first class shit. Rich of him to criticise others for tax avoidance when he himself avoided it on the death of his father


    https://cyberboris.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/how-ed-and-david-miliband-exploited-a-tax-loophole-described-by-gordon-brown-as-tax-abuse/
  • . They trip over themselves in a headlong rush to defend tax avoiders and dodgers simply because these people have donated millions to the political party they support .

    You damn yourself with your own words.
    The words were an almost exact parody of yours , You damned yourself .
    Really? So which tax avoiders and dodgers have I, or indeed anyone else here, defended?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038

    Shouldn't this thread be about Dodgy-gate?

    Reminded me of this:


    If there is one commodity of which there can never be enough for a public always ravenous for linguistic originality, it is the suffix “-gate”. My dream is that one day Bill Gates will marry the Star Trek actress Gates McFadden – and that while honeymooning in Berlin, and fretting about being broke as we all do, she is arrested by Interpol after trying to flog the Brandenburg Gate to a credulous Chinese tourist. If anything could sate this appetite, it is Gates Gates’s Gate-gate.
  • And your views on Michael Brown's donations to the Lib Dems, Mark?

    I don't see anyone on here defending tax avoiders. There are a great many defending the principle of innocence until guilt is proven and decrying the use of parliamentary privilege for partisan advantage. There are many with an appreciation of the lamentable history of Britain's efforts to tackle money laundering and tax avoidance, and the great strides made under this Government to address this. Difficult, unglamorous work. There are a number horrified by the prospect that a man who would be prime minister can make accusations about people without doing his research, and who thinks it is the actions of a statesman to try to stoke up class war on people, some of whom have dedicated themselves to public service, given generously to charity and paid significant sums to the exchequer. And there are others, I suspect, who are deeply concerned about the loss to the nation if the cadre of people who run some of the world's largest companies are deterred from serving Government in any capacity for fear of being smeared with allegations over matters they themselves could well have had no personal knowledge of, all for cheap political advantage.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Roger said:

    FPT. Isam

    "He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect".

    Spot on. This rather tawdry campaign probably accidental is working out better than anyone could imagine. Who would have guessed that these muti millionaire tax exiles would have such thin skin. This is something which is actually being talked about in cafe's and bars. No one seems to have realized that these people actually exist let alone that they're mostly under David Cameron's wing. I'm really beginning to wonder how far this thing can go. Could it actually win it for Ed?

    It seems the Cameroons on here fall for this ruse every time, whether it be Farage talking about the reaction to breastfeeding/Kerry Smiths words or Miliband in this case. Seems obvious to me the image Farage and Miliband crave is to be pitted against political correctness/metropolitan elite in one case, and wealthy tax dodgers in the other.. its always hailed as a disaster and a gaffe, but they are playing to their core vote, not Cameroons like them.

    Love how noticing this in Milibands case is "man love"... If you're not a Cameroon you're a rabid left winger/right winger...

    or maybe someone with their own opinion?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Miliband Dodgy Dave Story as BBC headline. BBC Reader Ranking:7

    Most important news - "Smoking Ban in Cars".

    "Fifty Shades of Grey better than the book" also out-performing Ed.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015

    Miliband is a first class shit. Rich of him to criticise others for tax avoidance when he himself avoided it on the death of his father


    https://cyberboris.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/how-ed-and-david-miliband-exploited-a-tax-loophole-described-by-gordon-brown-as-tax-abuse/

    I am sure the BBC will be all over this.....no? Like they never seen interested in the Guardian's tax affairs, but one whiff of NI and they go absolutely loopy.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited February 2015
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    Perhaps we were blinded by the smears against the unemployed, disabled, and powerless?
    Of course, they have never counted to you, only those who are "important" need defending.

    No sane person can stomach accusations of moral blindness from supporters of a party that turned a Nelson eye on the endemic child sexual abuse in its rotten boroughs over many years for the basest political motives. Shame on you, shame on Labour.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    saddened said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ed wanted this fight I'm thinking, as much as Dave wanted the Greens in the debates to make them all "fairer".

    Naked political advantage - Btw Daily Mail's take on today is dreadful for Dave

    "Miliband was 'personally horrid to me', Cameron complains after being branded 'rotten' in volley of abuse during PMQs"

    Getting bullied by Ed Miliband - sweet Jesus.

    This may be the biggest event of the day. Cameron seems genuinely surprised by the personal attack, if he decides the gloves are off, it could get very messy.
    If he was surprised by it, he's very stupid. Personally, my first thought when the news broke on Monday morning was that we were going to be in for a very tasty PMQs.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Another thought on Ed's assault on vested interests and tax avoiders and that's the Scottish spin off. There's no doubt 'New Ed' will be going down a storm in Scotland. They could yet overhaul the SNP lead.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Miliband is a first class shit. Rich of him to criticise others for tax avoidance when he himself avoided it on the death of his father


    https://cyberboris.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/how-ed-and-david-miliband-exploited-a-tax-loophole-described-by-gordon-brown-as-tax-abuse/

    How much tax has been avoided?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    BBC Audio/Video Chart

    Number 1: Smoking Ban
    Number 3: Harriet Harman and PinkBus
    Number 10: Miliband 'rotten'

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    And your views on Michael Brown's donations to the Lib Dems, Mark?

    I don't see anyone on here defending tax avoiders. There are a great many defending the principle of innocence until guilt is proven and decrying the use of parliamentary privilege for partisan advantage. There are many with an appreciation of the lamentable history of Britain's efforts to tackle money laundering and tax avoidance, and the great strides made under this Government to address this. Difficult, unglamorous work. There are a number horrified by the prospect that a man who would be prime minister can make accusations about people without doing his research, and who thinks it is the actions of a statesman to try to stoke up class war on people, some of whom have dedicated themselves to public service, given generously to charity and paid significant sums to the exchequer. And there are others, I suspect, who are deeply concerned about the loss to the nation if the cadre of people who run some of the world's largest companies are deterred from serving Government in any capacity for fear of being smeared with allegations over matters they themselves could well have had no personal knowledge of, all for cheap political advantage.

    Very well put Sir.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Women in the street turn against Labour's van. Great @5_News vox pops: https://t.co/svgLVW1qaK
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Alistair said:

    Miliband is a first class shit. Rich of him to criticise others for tax avoidance when he himself avoided it on the death of his father


    https://cyberboris.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/how-ed-and-david-miliband-exploited-a-tax-loophole-described-by-gordon-brown-as-tax-abuse/

    How much tax has been avoided?
    I have no idea , but it must have been quite a bit for him to do it. You can imagine the little shit rubbing his hands with glee at all that extra lolly.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    PM Miliband will out do Hollande when it comes to wealth exodus.

    How many hospitals will close due to the tax shortfalls?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    chestnut said:

    Miliband Dodgy Dave Story as BBC headline. BBC Reader Ranking:7

    Most important news - "Smoking Ban in Cars".

    "Fifty Shades of Grey better than the book" also out-performing Ed.

    It's all noise. I got an email today saying Mr Grey was waiting for me.
  • RobD said:

    Shouldn't this thread be about Dodgy-gate?

    Reminded me of this:


    If there is one commodity of which there can never be enough for a public always ravenous for linguistic originality, it is the suffix “-gate”. My dream is that one day Bill Gates will marry the Star Trek actress Gates McFadden – and that while honeymooning in Berlin, and fretting about being broke as we all do, she is arrested by Interpol after trying to flog the Brandenburg Gate to a credulous Chinese tourist. If anything could sate this appetite, it is Gates Gates’s Gate-gate.
    Resistance is futile :lol:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Women in the street turn against Labour's van. Great @5_News vox pops: https://t.co/svgLVW1qaK

    Apparently not allowed to view that in the US!
This discussion has been closed.