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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A worrying trend for Ed Miliband’s team: Labour’s 2010 Lib

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A worrying trend for Ed Miliband’s team: Labour’s 2010 Lib Dem crutch is getting shorter

Over the last two years we’ve been keeping a lose eye on the group of swing voters who could have a big impact on the May 7th outcome – those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 but have now switched to Labour. In my latest calculation, for January, the number has dropped to a low point.

Read the full story here


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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    that about wraps it up for ed.
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    Where's your firewall now.

    Some of us said Ed's crap ratings would eventually catch up with Labour.

    PB Tories, always right.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,826
    Broken, sleazy 2010 Lib-Dems on the slide (for Labour)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Where's your firewall now.

    Some of us said Ed's crap ratings would eventually catch up with Labour.

    PB Tories, always right.

    Well if Rod Crosby is right alot of Conservative constituency bets of mine should land...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Andy Burnham's 'weapon' misfiring again...

    @politicshome: "I haven't been under any political pressure", Chief Operating Officer of NHS England, Barbara Hakin, tells BBC News
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited January 2015
    Also I think Scotland has knocked away alot of the vote/seat bias in the system away from Labour - I've acted to adjust my book correspondingly on the http://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/market?id=1.116239998 market.

    (Also their outperformance in London with relatively few marginals, Ealing Central & Acton won't win them the GE...)
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The average of Ashcroft 4 polls this month has a Tory lead. The average of Ipsos last six is also a narrow Tory lead now (it's 1.6% in the last three).

    The last ten YG headline scores have a Labour lead of 0.1%. If the Tories are level or in front tonight then they will have been over the last ten polls.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,826
    FTPT

    Congrat's [on N_S article] Mike.

    Though I have noticed that the view "from outside the bubble" is often strikingly similar to the view "from inside the bubble"

    Look no further than the general idea from both PB and the "bubble" that Cameron's stance of the debate's was a major error from him - Now I ask, how many Con leads did we have before Cameron said he wanted the Green's in the debates against the Con leads we've had since...?

    But that's nit-picking. You and Robert and TSE and everyone at PB do a grand effort with the website.

    Here and UKPR are the best political blog's in the country, IMO.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Cons lead up to 0.6 points in @May2015NS Poll of Polls, now on @Independent politics pages http://t.co/AoWDw3Z4dD http://t.co/6FMBmudWHw
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    A green crutch is clearly not good for Labour!
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    I see the Tories have moved ahead on SPIN.

    The May election is going to be Labour's Zama.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited January 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Cons lead up to 0.6 points in @May2015NS Poll of Polls, now on @Independent politics pages http://t.co/AoWDw3Z4dD http://t.co/6FMBmudWHw

    The psychological impact of this is intriguing.

    Does it drive people back to Labour in a frenzy of "Stop the Tories", or does it encourage less than certain Labour voters to leave the sinking ship because it looks like a loser?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,826
    SeanT said:

    Much as I would love to see Labour annihilated, I can't discern much of a "trend" in that graph.

    It bounces between 20-25 throughout.

    It looks like it dropped 5% from November to January though? If it goes under 20% in February that will be very interesting.

    BTW, I would think it's more likely these 2010 Red>Green Lib's will eventually find their way back to the Lib-Dem come "the day".

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    FPT
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: In no way was @andyburnhammp's Newsnight interview a "car crash". It was much worse: utterly, fundamentally wrong http://t.co/2jnok22STs

    and Kirsty did not use the comparisons with Labour run Wales and their use of Burnham's fix of a single social health system for the elderly as the main solution to lower A&E waiting times.

    If Ed Miliband's Labour fall to a significant gap behind the Conservatives such as 3% or 4% the Blairites/new Labour folk are waiting to pounce.

    The good news for the Conservatives and Lib Dems is that Burnham is highly favoured as EdM's replacement....
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Much as I would love to see Labour annihilated, I can't discern much of a "trend" in that graph.

    It bounces between 20-25 throughout.

    It looks like it dropped 5% from November to January though? If it goes under 20% in February that will be very interesting.

    BTW, I would think it's more likely these 2010 Red>Green Lib's will eventually find their way back to the Lib-Dem come "the day".

    Stay at home I reckon.
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    Watching Andy Burnham's interview on Newsnight last night it was absolutely astounding that he was so incoherent in his remarks and seemed to be against privatization in one moment but for it the next. My Sister is in a Private Nursing Home paid by the NHS, as are so many of the elderly, and I cannot understand whether he was saying that this would be banned under his proposals as it is in the private sector or if it would continue. If labour ban the use of the private sector nursing homes where on earth is the care going to come from. It just seemed that he was trying to make the case for complete state and union control over the NHS and that would be an absolute disaster. For this to be labour's flagship policy it defies belief.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    If we look at YouGov's 2010 VI for the LDs and compare the average for Jan 2014 to the current average for Jan 2015:

    LD retain: 35.3-> 26.6
    LD to LAB: 34.2-> 28
    LD to Con: 12.2-> 13.7
    LD to UKIP: 9.5-> 11.7
    LD to Green: 5.4-> 15.6
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Fascinating to see the weaponised NHS misfiring badly for Burnham. And he wasn't exactly given the hardest grilling on Newsnight (being called "Andy" - compare and contrast with what Jim Naughtie called Jeremy Hunt...)

    As I have said before, the moment Labour gets any level of forensic examination, they collapse. The campaign is going to be a horror show for them. When their case on the NHS falls to bits on day 1 of 100, they are in for a rough ride.....
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    We'll see if the line drops below the 20% mark in the next few weeks.

    Still wondering how Burnham figures 4.4% private is good and 5.9% private is evil.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    For the first tine the Tories move ahead of LAB in commons seat spreads
    SportingIndex
    http://goo.gl/0sfA2E
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Talk about cognitive dissonance, the party of "Labour: Reckless Borrowing", have their voters decamping to the party of "absurd borrowing otherwise we will never fund Citizens Income as half the third world decamp to the UK and almost anyone in the UK who has any aspiration (ie makes money) leaves"
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    SeanT said:

    Much as I would love to see Labour annihilated, I can't discern much of a "trend" in that graph.

    It bounces between 20-25 throughout.

    That said, my expectations of Labour's performance in May are dropping daily. Someone asked pre-thread if it is possible Labour could do WORSE in 2015 than they did in 2010.

    I reckon it is entirely possible. Labour in 2015 possess a leader inferior to Gordon Brown, they have a less impressive ministerial team, they have a less coherent economic policy (does anyone know what it is??), and, crucially, they are facing meltdown in Scotland.

    Labour's vote has been eroding for 18 years straight. From 13m to 8m. Is Ed "bacon" Miliband the man to stop that secular decline?

    In 2010, Gordon Brown managed to convince enough voters that he really HAD saved the world. The paucity of economic argument from Labour in 2015 is in stark contrast even to the crazy claims of the Great Scottish Profligate.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Where are the Labour leaning posters btw ?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's quite a bumpy line. The overall trend over 18 months is slowly down, I grant that. I'm not sure it's safe to look at the last two months alone though. We might reasonably expect the loss of another 1% or so of 2010 Lib Dems elsewhere, maybe. But 1% of 2010 Lib Dems is only 0.23% of the 2010 voting public. Indeed, the difference between the high point and the low point on this represents just over 1% of the 2010 voting public. This will not decide the election.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Where are the Labour leaning posters btw ?

    Under the duvet? A bit early?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    I can't work out why the Conservatives are 1-2 in Pompey north, seems far too long to me.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    Oops found this from earlier, its actually from the previous, previous thread ;)

    FPT:

    If it is money for old rope, why is it impossible to fill training posts or many senior posts?

    It is not just about money, it is about being treated with respect. At the moment GPs get blamed for everything so they vote with their feet by leaving.

    Its a lot less money for more rope than Australia and NZ

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/979cd9ee-edeb-11e1-8d72-00144feab49a.html (£)
    "I love it,” she says, adding that she is now exploring the possibility of staying longer. “Everyone in general is much happier,” she says, and talks about a sense of pride she has found down under. Another benefit is delivered in her monthly wage slip. “Certainly pay is really terrible [in Britain] compared to out here. People would tolerate more if they felt they were being rewarded properly.”
    According to these people http://www.gpjobsinaustralia.co.uk/gp-jobs-australia/
    More money – great earning potential………..typical earnings start from $A230,000 (£145,000) and rise to $A300,000 (£195,000) per annum after a few years’ experience
    Over all tax is lower there , and the standard of life argueably significantly higher.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Financier said:

    If we look at YouGov's 2010 VI for the LDs and compare the average for Jan 2014 to the current average for Jan 2015:

    LD retain: 35.3-> 26.6
    LD to LAB: 34.2-> 28
    LD to Con: 12.2-> 13.7
    LD to UKIP: 9.5-> 11.7
    LD to Green: 5.4-> 15.6

    So Labour's lead over the Tories on poached LibDems has dropped from 22% to 14.3%. Still handy for Labour, but a drop of a third since last year.

    I still hold to the view that come May, those on the right of the LibDems, who have stayed loyal through the Coalition while the left peeled off, will be under some turmoil as to whether they stay loyal and let in Ed Miliband, or vote Tory because Ed Is just too much of a liability and will put in jeopardy all that has been achieved under the Coalition.

    Meanwhile more of the leftist former LibDems will despair at Ed and go Green.

    Let's just say I expect this gap to narrow significantly.
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    I think the next big event, is next week.

    If the Lord Ashcroft Scottish constituency polling backs up what the Scottish VI polling is saying, then we're going to know with a bit more certainty that the Tories are going to the largest party, because I can't see Lab being the largest party if they've shed 30 MPs in North Britain.

    If the Tories are going to be the largest party, then they've almost certainly won the popular vote.

    What will Labour do, because their job is more difficult than the Tories. The Tories have only shed votes to one party, Dave can show some Eurosceptic leg and he can get some back.

    Whereas Labour has shed votes to three parties, UKIP, the SNP and The Greens.

    I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    FPT
    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:

    RE: Scottish drink driving. Typically in Scotland the number of people killed by a drunk driver is about 6 a year. On top of this are the 2/3 of deaths where the drink driver is the victim.

    Most of these deaths are also where the driver is blitzed, not slightly over the old limit. There may even be in some years none killed by a driver slightly over the new limit. But let us not use statistics when taking irrational decisions that put at risk the enjoyment/livelihood of hundreds of thousands of drivers....

    Thanks for posting - any data to back up ?

    I also suspect that this is a classic SNP wedge issue - using the powers they have just to make Scotland "different" - with no thought to the consequences.
    Different from whom? Not Europe, by an dlarge, which ma suggest that England etc. is out of step.

    Also - a bit less please of trying to find something wrong with Scotland so you can have another moan about the SNP. It's not a SNP thing. Unanimous vote at Holyrood.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YG 2010 VI Figures for Labour are interesting: again compare Jan 2014 to Jan 2015 averages

    LAB retain: 85.4-> 77.7
    LAB to Con: 4.5-> 5.2
    LAB to LD: 1.6-> 1.1
    LAB to UKIP: 5 -> 7.1
    LAB to Green: 0.7-> 3.6
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Burnham getting monstered on Newsnight is irrelevant - it's only watched by committed voters anyway. Many years ago, I remember Francis Pym getting a real mauling on a teatime news interview. He made Burnham look like Kennedy. He was later reported as saying he believed he'd lost the election for the Tories.

    Total bollocks. No one took any notice, and I suspect that many who did notice probably thought he was Labour anyway. That's the level of political knowledge for many once you go outside the leaders.

    Individual disasters don't matter. Group disasters do if they're continuous. Ed's a group disaster but that's already factored into the polling.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    UKIP has grown an solidified over the last 2 years, but unfortunately there are still spots where people think their egos trump all. It is a shame that the Fareham group can't grow up. I expect it will take someone from the executive to shake them up; probably.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited January 2015
    Andy Burnham is going to need outsourced medical attention. Kirsty Wark just tore him a new one on Newsnight last night but the most surreal part was this.

    Wark - the coalition has only increased the private sector by 1.5% whereas Labour increased it 4.4%
    Burnham - yeah but Tories are continuing our policy which is bad..

    Ye gods

    I suggest anyone who has not seen this should because if it were an NHS hospital they would be declaring a major incident
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited January 2015

    I think the next big event, is next week. If the Lord Ashcroft Scottish constituency polling backs up what the Scottish VI polling is saying, then we're going to know with a bit more certainty that the Tories are going to the largest party, because I can't see Lab being the largest party if they've shed 30 MPs in North Britain. .....What will Labour do, because their job is more difficult than the Tories. The Tories have only shed votes to one party, Dave can show some Eurosceptic leg and he can get some back. I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.

    Labour have known for several years that EdM was not an election winner. Same situation happened under GordonB. Yet they just ignored the problem as it got worse and worse. Do Labour MPs lack the intelligence or guts? The Conservatives removed IDS for less reasons.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:

    RE: Scottish drink driving. Typically in Scotland the number of people killed by a drunk driver is about 6 a year. On top of this are the 2/3 of deaths where the drink driver is the victim.

    Most of these deaths are also where the driver is blitzed, not slightly over the old limit. There may even be in some years none killed by a driver slightly over the new limit. But let us not use statistics when taking irrational decisions that put at risk the enjoyment/livelihood of hundreds of thousands of drivers....

    Thanks for posting - any data to back up ?

    I also suspect that this is a classic SNP wedge issue - using the powers they have just to make Scotland "different" - with no thought to the consequences.
    Different from whom? Not Europe, by an dlarge, which ma suggest that England etc. is out of step.

    Also - a bit less please of trying to find something wrong with Scotland so you can have another moan about the SNP. It's not a SNP thing. Unanimous vote at Holyrood.
    I replied on previous post Carynx - am not that fussed about the politics of this - more that the rUk doesn't follow down the same path - some data on deaths/accidents and levels of blood alcohol would be instructive - TCPB suggested that total drink driving deaths average 6 per year but had no details on whether this new policy would improve.

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    Moses_ said:

    Andy Burnham is going to need outsourced medical attention. Kirsty Wark just tore him a new one on Newsnight last night but the most surreal part was this.

    Wark - the coalition has only increased the private sector by 1.5% whereas Labour increased it 4.4%
    Burnham - yeah but Tories are continuing our policy which is bad..

    Ye gods

    I suggest anyone who has not seen this should because if it were an NHS hospital they would be declaring a major incident

    I just watched it, the man is an utter disgrace. To think this is all they have to offer.
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Andrew Neil has been reading Guido by the looks of it. Caroline Flint was sunk.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Look Squirrel.

    Owen Smith MP ‏@OwenSmithMP 34m34 minutes ago
    Welsh Labour Government are today investing an extra £70m in our NHS - taking the budget to 6.7bn, the highest ever.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    The Guardian have analysed the latest polls and suggest that an election today would most likely lead to a three-party Coalition of Labour-SNP-Lib Dems, in a Parliament where Labour and the Conservatives are level with 273 seats.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Moses_ said:

    Andy Burnham is going to need outsourced medical attention. Kirsty Wark just tore him a new one on Newsnight last night but the most surreal part was this.

    Wark - the coalition has only increased the private sector by 1.5% whereas Labour increased it 4.4%
    Burnham - yeah but Tories are continuing our policy which is bad..

    Ye gods

    I suggest anyone who has not seen this should because if it were an NHS hospital they would be declaring a major incident

    Caroline Flint had another go the DP. Ended up "Labour privatisation good, Tory bad"

    @politicshome: Caroline Flint says there is a difference between Labour's use of private NHS providers and "having a culture brought into our NHS". #bbcdp
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    CD13 said:

    Burnham getting monstered on Newsnight is irrelevant - it's only watched by committed voters anyway. Many years ago, I remember Francis Pym getting a real mauling on a teatime news interview. He made Burnham look like Kennedy. He was later reported as saying he believed he'd lost the election for the Tories.

    Total bollocks. No one took any notice, and I suspect that many who did notice probably thought he was Labour anyway. That's the level of political knowledge for many once you go outside the leaders.

    Individual disasters don't matter. Group disasters do if they're continuous. Ed's a group disaster but that's already factored into the polling.

    Burnham getting monstered ON THE ONLY POLICY LABOUR WANTS TO TALK ABOUT does matter. He was the Heir Apparent for many in Labour. He holds their hopes in his hands with the NHS. Without his protection, maternity wards would just be fast-food outlets for gluttonous Tories. So when he can't manage his brief, it is no wonder the Baby-Eaters move in to most-seat favourites.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Scotland - If Labour go from 42% to 25% (The SNP rise, and swing is larger because they are taking Lib Dem votes too) that is ~ 300,000 lost votes. That is just over 1% of the UK vote total.

    30 seats is 4.6% of the seat total.

    This DECIMATES Labour's efficiency.
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    Pulpstar said:

    I can't work out why the Conservatives are 1-2 in Pompey north, seems far too long to me.
    Not answering your question.
    FYI there is worse to come out about UKIP.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    CD13 said:

    Burnham getting monstered on Newsnight is irrelevant - it's only watched by committed voters anyway. Many years ago, I remember Francis Pym getting a real mauling on a teatime news interview. He made Burnham look like Kennedy. He was later reported as saying he believed he'd lost the election for the Tories.

    Total bollocks. No one took any notice, and I suspect that many who did notice probably thought he was Labour anyway. That's the level of political knowledge for many once you go outside the leaders.

    Individual disasters don't matter. Group disasters do if they're continuous. Ed's a group disaster but that's already factored into the polling.

    Mony a mickle makes a muckle.

    The alternative theory about Ed, aired repeatedly here over the last several years, is that his low personal ratings have not thus far been factored into VI polling but will begin to affect VI polling as the GE campaign gets under way. Let's wait and see.

    I wonder if we are about to hear anything about Welsh ambulances.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited January 2015
    @DPJHodges: How has Labour contrived, 12 weeks from polling day, to get itself into a mess on NHS policy. The NHS.

    @DPJHodges: You watch. Even as we speak, Ed's office are frantically inventing some arbitrary limit for private NHS provision.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    TGOHF said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:

    RE: Scottish drink driving. Typically in Scotland the number of people killed by a drunk driver is about 6 a year. On top of this are the 2/3 of deaths where the drink driver is the victim.

    Most of these deaths are also where the driver is blitzed, not slightly over the old limit. There may even be in some years none killed by a driver slightly over the new limit. But let us not use statistics when taking irrational decisions that put at risk the enjoyment/livelihood of hundreds of thousands of drivers....

    Thanks for posting - any data to back up ?

    I also suspect that this is a classic SNP wedge issue - using the powers they have just to make Scotland "different" - with no thought to the consequences.
    Different from whom? Not Europe, by an dlarge, which ma suggest that England etc. is out of step.

    Also - a bit less please of trying to find something wrong with Scotland so you can have another moan about the SNP. It's not a SNP thing. Unanimous vote at Holyrood.
    I replied on previous post Carynx - am not that fussed about the politics of this - more that the rUk doesn't follow down the same path - some data on deaths/accidents and levels of blood alcohol would be instructive - TCPB suggested that total drink driving deaths average 6 per year but had no details on whether this new policy would improve.

    Will be interesting to see the data in a year or so, certainly. It's sure also interesting - whatever side one espouses - that it was unanimous, which surprised me.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    I think the next big event, is next week.

    If the Lord Ashcroft Scottish constituency polling backs up what the Scottish VI polling is saying, then we're going to know with a bit more certainty that the Tories are going to the largest party, because I can't see Lab being the largest party if they've shed 30 MPs in North Britain.

    If the Tories are going to be the largest party, then they've almost certainly won the popular vote.

    What will Labour do, because their job is more difficult than the Tories. The Tories have only shed votes to one party, Dave can show some Eurosceptic leg and he can get some back.

    Whereas Labour has shed votes to three parties, UKIP, the SNP and The Greens.

    I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.

    The Conservatives aren't home and dry yet. I wouldn't dispute the general verdict on Ed Milliband (leader ratings are unambiguous). But, it may be the case that Labour can't fall beneath 30%, whatever happens.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    CD13 said:

    Burnham getting monstered on Newsnight is irrelevant - it's only watched by committed voters anyway. Many years ago, I remember Francis Pym getting a real mauling on a teatime news interview. He made Burnham look like Kennedy. He was later reported as saying he believed he'd lost the election for the Tories.

    Total bollocks. No one took any notice, and I suspect that many who did notice probably thought he was Labour anyway. That's the level of political knowledge for many once you go outside the leaders.

    Individual disasters don't matter. Group disasters do if they're continuous. Ed's a group disaster but that's already factored into the polling.

    Burnham getting monstered ON THE ONLY POLICY LABOUR WANTS TO TALK ABOUT does matter. He was the Heir Apparent for many in Labour. He holds their hopes in his hands with the NHS. Without his protection, maternity wards would just be fast-food outlets for gluttonous Tories. So when he can't manage his brief, it is no wonder the Baby-Eaters move in to most-seat favourites.
    I commented on Burnhams interview last night as a bit of a mess. Burnham is usually much more articulate, and I quite like his policy on the NHS. Two years ago I saw him speak just after Norman Lamb and it was impossible to put a hair between their policies. I see this as a good thing as I would like to see consensus on the direction of the NHS.

    I think the point he was trying to make was that in the early noughties there was a need for extra capacity to bring down waiting lists, but that point is now passed, and it is better for services to now become better integrated under the NHS umbrella.


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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: David Cameron just weaponised Ed Miliband.
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    Sean_F said:

    I think the next big event, is next week.

    If the Lord Ashcroft Scottish constituency polling backs up what the Scottish VI polling is saying, then we're going to know with a bit more certainty that the Tories are going to the largest party, because I can't see Lab being the largest party if they've shed 30 MPs in North Britain.

    If the Tories are going to be the largest party, then they've almost certainly won the popular vote.

    What will Labour do, because their job is more difficult than the Tories. The Tories have only shed votes to one party, Dave can show some Eurosceptic leg and he can get some back.

    Whereas Labour has shed votes to three parties, UKIP, the SNP and The Greens.

    I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.

    The Conservatives aren't home and dry yet. I wouldn't dispute the general verdict on Ed Milliband (leader ratings are unambiguous). But, it may be the case that Labour can't fall beneath 30%, whatever happens.

    I know, but I think the effect will be psychological in the short term, which will effect the Labour party.

    Let us assume that the Tories maintain/widen their lead in the Westminster VI polls through to next week, and then the Ashcroft polling shows a bloodbath in Scotland, Labour might start to panic and turn in on itself.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    My reckoning is that the PMQs betting should be settled on the Holocaust being first issue raised
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tombradby: Ed is normally pretty good at PMQs, but he looks a bit flustered today. This issue over the word 'weaponise' is tricky.
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    MikeK said:

    UKIP has grown an solidified over the last 2 years, but unfortunately there are still spots where people think their egos trump all. It is a shame that the Fareham group can't grow up. I expect it will take someone from the executive to shake them up; probably.
    grow up in Fareham? Clearly you do not know what the details are.

    and in Portsmouth, involving the same "official" and a collapsed association?
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    I think Ed Milliband has just suggested David Cameron was running the NHS in 1997 from his Carlton TV office!!
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Getting a sense of deja vu at PMQs today...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: EdM is going to have to acknowledge the "weaponise" quote. Now would be a good time. #PMQs
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    SeanT said:

    Labour's vote has been eroding for 18 years straight. From 13m to 8m. Is Ed "bacon" Miliband the man to stop that secular decline?

    No, but nor need he. The Tories' vote has also been in decline over that period, so all Redward needs to do is ensure his declines more slowly, and let the inbuilt bias do the rest.

    It also seems pretty clear that that bias to Labour is the reason the latter have felt able both to fill their boots and deploy such childish and nasty invective over that period - toffs, etc. There was no electoral penalty for being c0cks, because they had about 280 seats in the bag no matter what they said or did. Even if their entire local establishment tolerated child rape, or fabricated invoices to obtain fraudulent payments, a Labour MP would still be elected for the area.

    The other parties have no such surefire vote in the bag. Libs deserted Thorpe and Tories deserted Neil Hamilton because they both stank. No stink is so bad it puts a Labour voter off voting Labour.

    It's as they are somehow short of a sense. Not really all there.
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    EdM stupid remark to DaveC "the last time he was responsible for Wales"....

    22+ years ago when Dave was a young SPAD tucked away in Govt, now he is held accountable for NHS Wales....
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: Cameron again operationalising Miliband's alleged weaponising of the coalition's alleged privatising of the NHS #pmqs
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    Sean_F said:

    I think the next big event, is next week.

    If the Lord Ashcroft Scottish constituency polling backs up what the Scottish VI polling is saying, then we're going to know with a bit more certainty that the Tories are going to the largest party, because I can't see Lab being the largest party if they've shed 30 MPs in North Britain.

    If the Tories are going to be the largest party, then they've almost certainly won the popular vote.

    What will Labour do, because their job is more difficult than the Tories. The Tories have only shed votes to one party, Dave can show some Eurosceptic leg and he can get some back.

    Whereas Labour has shed votes to three parties, UKIP, the SNP and The Greens.

    I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.

    The Conservatives aren't home and dry yet. I wouldn't dispute the general verdict on Ed Milliband (leader ratings are unambiguous). But, it may be the case that Labour can't fall beneath 30%, whatever happens.

    I think Labour will be closer to 25% than 30%. EdM is that bad.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    "what a useless shower" would have been more effective if he didn't sound so angry when he said it...
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    isamisam Posts: 40,933
    Dave been taking faux outrage lessons from Soubry?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    My reckoning is that the PMQs betting should be settled on the Holocaust being first issue raised

    My reckoning is that they'll have to settle both as winners. Which is why most bookies steer clear of this sort of thing, and also why shadsy's buzzword bingo approach is so sensible (and clever).
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    I refer hon. members to the first post on this thread.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I think Labour will be closer to 25% than 30%. EdM is that bad.

    They might not fall below 28 in the polls. What the actual numbers who turn out to actually vote for ed might tally up as is anybody's guess.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited January 2015
    Seems that the Tories have finally learned Labour trick of sticking to an answer "weaponise" and shoe horning it into every reply. Has really put ed on the back foot.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Verdict: Ed lost. MT @Markfergusonuk: I hate having to watch PMQs.. Writing about this turgid nonsense is like drowning in nonsense
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Listened to PMQs today. Initial verdict: We all lost.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,008
    taffys said:
    No idea whether this is allowed for but there are some very isolated communities and poor roads in Wales.

    Do they routinely use helicopters in Gwynedd, Powys etc?
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    TGOHF said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:

    RE: Scottish drink driving. Typically in Scotland the number of people killed by a drunk driver is about 6 a year. On top of this are the 2/3 of deaths where the drink driver is the victim.

    Most of these deaths are also where the driver is blitzed, not slightly over the old limit. There may even be in some years none killed by a driver slightly over the new limit. But let us not use statistics when taking irrational decisions that put at risk the enjoyment/livelihood of hundreds of thousands of drivers....

    Thanks for posting - any data to back up ?

    I also suspect that this is a classic SNP wedge issue - using the powers they have just to make Scotland "different" - with no thought to the consequences.
    Different from whom? Not Europe, by an dlarge, which ma suggest that England etc. is out of step.

    Also - a bit less please of trying to find something wrong with Scotland so you can have another moan about the SNP. It's not a SNP thing. Unanimous vote at Holyrood.
    I replied on previous post Carynx - am not that fussed about the politics of this - more that the rUk doesn't follow down the same path - some data on deaths/accidents and levels of blood alcohol would be instructive - TCPB suggested that total drink driving deaths average 6 per year but had no details on whether this new policy would improve.

    Kennry MacAskill (as reported by the Mail) said it was 20 deaths a year.

    "Mr MacAskill said the new limit would send a 'clear message' to drivers who ignore the warnings that there is never an excuse to drink and drive. He said: 'Drink-driving shatters families and communities and we must take action to reduce the risk on our roads. The latest estimates show that approximately one in 10 deaths on Scottish roads involve drivers who are over the legal limit and research shows that even just one alcoholic drink before driving can make you three times as likely to be involved in a fatal car crash. As a result, 20 families every year have to cope with the loss of a loved one and around 760 people are treated for injuries caused by someone who thought it was acceptable to drink alcohol and get behind the wheel and drive. We cannot let this continue. That's why I have today introduced legislation to lower the drink-drive limit in Scotland so that, subject to parliamentary approval, new laws will be in place in time for the beginning of the festive period.'"

    http://tinyurl.com/nhkn7pj

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    edited January 2015
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
    And the loss of jobs? In a 'united Kingdom moving for no good reason is pretty costly. Wales is not ideal because of the oil terminal.
    The loss of jobs was hugely exaggerated - IIRC Labour were touting 45K jobs at the same time as MoD was giving 512 as the jobs dependent on Trident.

    Neither of the figures are plausible to be honest.

    I assume that 512 is the direct employment, but does not take into account any suppliers who might move, and the impact on the local service economy of the loss of high paying jobs at the site. But 45K seems a ludicrous exaggeration.
    FPT - in fairness I should not have relied on memory: 19000 (Coalition) or 11000 (SLAB) was the actual exaggeration at the top end, though my 512 was just about right. Those would I assume be for Trident-dependent jobs in the area specifically, though not nec at the base (most Trident-dependent jobs would be elsewhere in the UK etc.).

    http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/trident-job-losses-and-other.html
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    Listened to PMQs today. Initial verdict: We all lost.

    We get a Dave v Ed debate.

    It just dawned on me, that will be 90 mins of them hurling insults about the NHS.

    Cancel all the debates now.
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    Coulson!
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    MikeK said:

    UKIP has grown an solidified over the last 2 years, but unfortunately there are still spots where people think their egos trump all. It is a shame that the Fareham group can't grow up. I expect it will take someone from the executive to shake them up; probably.
    Yebbut it's exactly this tone from the top that makes them behave like this. If the leader runs an inauthentic and borderline quite queeny personality cult, why should the yokels be any more grown up?
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    I don't think many voters will have liked watching that. Geez - Cameron and his Troops are on a war footing over the NHS. ED looked aggressed.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited January 2015
    SeanT said:


    Labour's vote has been eroding for 18 years straight. From 13m to 8m. Is Ed "bacon" Miliband the man to stop that secular decline?

    You've got to turnout adjust that figure though, it's not like the Conservative vote is any great shakes, from 14m to 10m from 1992 to 2010.

    Labour have dropped 3m votes from 1992, The conservative 3.5m
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    Listened to PMQs today. Initial verdict: We all lost.

    We get a Dave v Ed debate.

    It just dawned on me, that will be 90 mins of them hurling insults about the NHS.

    Cancel all the debates now.
    Great Minds Think Alike.

    And Mike's just tweeted

    Today's #PMQs is the best argument against having TV debates. This is dire.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,933

    Listened to PMQs today. Initial verdict: We all lost.

    We get a Dave v Ed debate.

    It just dawned on me, that will be 90 mins of them hurling insults about the NHS.

    Cancel all the debates now.
    I agree with you.. that was an embarrassingly childish spectacle
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    I'm not sure there's a policy that appeals to all three parties short of the Labour party giving Ed Miliband a public wedgie in Trafalgar Square.

    Well, they could offer to make Tony Blair face a war crimes trial, and charge Andy Burnham with corporate manslaughter.

    So yeah, there's nothing really.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    MikeK said:

    UKIP has grown an solidified over the last 2 years, but unfortunately there are still spots where people think their egos trump all. It is a shame that the Fareham group can't grow up. I expect it will take someone from the executive to shake them up; probably.
    Yebbut it's exactly this tone from the top that makes them behave like this. If the leader runs an inauthentic and borderline quite queeny personality cult, why should the yokels be any more grown up?
    The most perfect attack on the Blair administration I have ever seen in print.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    edited January 2015
    Text from a Labour activist friend

    "If we can't win a PMQs on the NHS very easily, we're going to get f*cked in May"
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    taffys said:
    No idea whether this is allowed for but there are some very isolated communities and poor roads in Wales.

    Do they routinely use helicopters in Gwynedd, Powys etc?
    Cornwall, north Yorkshire, Dorset, Cumbria, and many other areas in England are equally isolated and seem to manage.
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    TGOHF said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:

    RE: Scottish drink driving. Typically in Scotland the number of people killed by a drunk driver is about 6 a year. On top of this are the 2/3 of deaths where the drink driver is the victim.

    Most of these deaths are also where the driver is blitzed, not slightly over the old limit. There may even be in some years none killed by a driver slightly over the new limit. But let us not use statistics when taking irrational decisions that put at risk the enjoyment/livelihood of hundreds of thousands of drivers....

    Thanks for posting - any data to back up ?

    I also suspect that this is a classic SNP wedge issue - using the powers they have just to make Scotland "different" - with no thought to the consequences.
    Different from whom? Not Europe, by an dlarge, which ma suggest that England etc. is out of step.

    Also - a bit less please of trying to find something wrong with Scotland so you can have another moan about the SNP. It's not a SNP thing. Unanimous vote at Holyrood.
    I replied on previous post Carynx - am not that fussed about the politics of this - more that the rUk doesn't follow down the same path - some data on deaths/accidents and levels of blood alcohol would be instructive - TCPB suggested that total drink driving deaths average 6 per year but had no details on whether this new policy would improve.

    Kennry MacAskill (as reported by the Mail) said it was 20 deaths a year.
    ...... http://tinyurl.com/nhkn7pj
    Yes 20 would be about 8.5% of UK total in 2012. But 2/3 are a drunk driver. Only 1/3 were not the drunk driver (UK stats). Believing that a slightly lower limit will stop drunks getting into a car (and in most cases killing themselves and no one else), is not a sound argument.
    1/3 of 20 is 6+ non-drunk drivers Which is what I stated at the start.
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    Listened to PMQs today. Initial verdict: We all lost.

    "Cameron v. Miliband - whoever wins, we lose"?
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    I've been working on the general election debates ((generate adolescent bile) participants and have caught up with the proposed seven;

    Random Advice
    Weird Amid Bland
    Go Cliche Slang (tried really hard to make it a shag or shlong joke to no avail)
    Ale,Fag Reign
    Been Anti Talent
    Rules Contagion
    Ewe And Loon (yes, a welsh sheep joke)

    I'm not altogether happy with my Nicholas Clegg, if anyone can come up with a better one please let me know!
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Coulson!

    Has Cameron resigned yet? Or is he waiting for a horse to cry at a funeral?
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't work out why the Conservatives are 1-2 in Pompey north, seems far too long to me.
    Not answering your question.
    FYI there is worse to come out about UKIP.
    Portsmouth North is Frank Judd's old seat and contains Paulsgrove a large council estate, I would have thought that Labour were in with a good chance. Labour won in '74, '97 and '05. The Tories won in '79 with the infamous Peter Griffiths and in '10.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,933

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't work out why the Conservatives are 1-2 in Pompey north, seems far too long to me.
    Not answering your question.
    FYI there is worse to come out about UKIP.
    Portsmouth North is Frank Judd's old seat and contains Paulsgrove a large council estate, I would have thought that Labour were in with a good chance. Labour won in '74, '97 and '05. The Tories won in '79 with the infamous Peter Griffiths and in '10.
    Ah Logical Song! What was the bet you offered that I bottled?
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Tractor stats coming up.
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    I've been working on the general election debates ((generate adolescent bile) participants and have caught up with the proposed seven;

    Random Advice
    Weird Amid Bland
    Go Cliche Slang (tried really hard to make it a shag or shlong joke to no avail)
    Ale,Fag Reign
    Been Anti Talent
    Rules Contagion
    Ewe And Loon (yes, a welsh sheep joke)

    I'm not altogether happy with my Nicholas Clegg, if anyone can come up with a better one please let me know!

    Nick Clegg = Click n' Egg
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015
    Yep. I really honestly think this is heading one way. I know, I know, I'm a Tory but seriously is anyone on here going to be betting on a Labour win?

    3 months to go, including a budget. Barring some national catastrophe or Cameron confessing that he is a closet transsexual who wears SamCam's lingerie to PMQ's, EdM is toast. The most useless political leader since Michael Foot. He has all of Cameron's faults and none of his strengths.

    There's really only one major question now:

    NOM?
    or
    Tory Outright?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Of course, some of us have been against the debates for ages.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't work out why the Conservatives are 1-2 in Pompey north, seems far too long to me.
    Not answering your question.
    FYI there is worse to come out about UKIP.
    Portsmouth North is Frank Judd's old seat and contains Paulsgrove a large council estate, I would have thought that Labour were in with a good chance. Labour won in '74, '97 and '05. The Tories won in '79 with the infamous Peter Griffiths and in '10.
    Ah Logical Song! What was the bet you offered that I bottled?
    Can't you remember, something about the number of UKIP MPs. Dig it out in the archives if you'd like to reconsider.
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    Yep. I really honestly think this is heading one way. I know, I know, I'm a Tory but seriously is anyone on here going to be betting on a Labour win?

    3 months to go, including a budget. Barring some national catastrophe or Cameron confessing that he is a closet transsexual who wears SamCam's lingerie to PMQ's, EdM is toast. The most useless political leader since Michael Foot. He has all of Cameron's faults and none of his strengths.

    There's really only one major question now:

    NOM?
    or
    Tory Outright?

    Part-ELBOW this week now 0.5% Con lead, inc. last night's YG (0.4% yesterday)
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited January 2015

    Yep. I really honestly think this is heading one way. I know, I know, I'm a Tory but seriously is anyone on here going to be betting on a Labour win?

    3 months to go, including a budget. Barring some national catastrophe or Cameron confessing that he is a closet transsexual who wears SamCam's lingerie to PMQ's, EdM is toast. The most useless political leader since Michael Foot. He has all of Cameron's faults and none of his strengths.

    There's really only one major question now:

    NOM?
    or
    Tory Outright?

    Given that the Tories need to be 11.4% ahead in England before they stop losing seats to LAB it is hard to see a pathway to an overall majority.

This discussion has been closed.