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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Forget PMQ reactions – the big story this afternoon is the

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Forget PMQ reactions – the big story this afternoon is the killing in Paris

Gunmen responsible for deadly attack on #CharlieHebdo are still on the loose, @fhollande says. http://t.co/sBOkqaRg1Y pic.twitter.com/km88JvZmCa

Read the full story here


Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited January 2015
    Nous sommes tous Français maintenant
  • And her Majesty should order the playing of La Marseillaise at Buckingham Palace during the next Changing of the Guard.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    " It is the business of the leaders of distinct and separate populations to see that the power which they possess is used to benefit those for whom they speak. Leaders who fail to do so, or to do so fast enough, find themselves outflanked and superseded by those who are less squeamish. The Gresham’s law of extremism, that the more extreme drives out the less extreme, is one of the basic rules of political mechanics which operate in this field: it is a corollary of the general principle that no political power exists without being used.

    Both the general law and its Gresham’s corollary point, in contemporary circumstances, towards the resort to physical violence, in the form of firearms or high explosive, as being so probable as to be predicted with virtual certainty. The experience of the last decade and more, all round the world, shows that acts of violence, however apparently irrational or inappropriate their targets, precipitate a frenzied search on the part of the society attacked to discover and remedy more and more grievances, real or imaginary, among those from whom the violence is supposed to emanate or on whose behalf it is supposed to be exercised. Those commanding a position of political leverage would then be superhuman if they could refrain from pointing to the acts of terrorism and, while condemning them, declaring that further and faster concessions and grants of privilege are the only means to avoid such acts being repeated on a rising scale. We know that those who thus argue will always find a ready hearing. This is what produces the gearing effect of terrorism in the contemporary world, yielding huge results from acts of violence perpetrated by minimal numbers. It is not, I repeat again and again, that the mass of a particular population are violently or criminally disposed. Far from it; that population soon becomes itself the prisoner of the violence and machinations of an infinitely small minority among it. Just a few thugs, a few shots, a few bombs at the right place and time and that is enough for disproportionate consequences to follow."
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sky News have put the shooting video as the main item on their website, albeit with the policeman pixellated.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2015
    Le Figaro confirms all the top cartoonists are dead...

    France's best-known cartoonists for over 40 years.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    So what do we think should be done with Brits returning from fighting for ISIS?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    I'm finding it difficult to believe this just happened. I feel sick.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,378
    Dreadful news.

    Thoughts and solidarity goes out to the French people.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    It comes to something when the reaction to questioning a faith is not reasoned debate but cold blooded murder.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited January 2015

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    France only ended conscription in 2001. Lots of them have had military training.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_France#Post-war_period_and_the_end_of_conscription
  • FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    I would take a different line: This attack was not against a country but against an idea - fredom of speech to criticise Islam. It's not a revenge for Gitmo or Bin Laden or drone strikes or anything. It is purely and simply getting back at those who sought to exercise their freedom of speech. And therefore, to my mind, there can be precisely zero 'we brought it on ourselves' horseshit about this one. An act of pure unadulterated evil by the religion of piss.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Agree that the dreadful events in Paris -- which quite probably have not yet reached their conclusion - will dominate the news.

    However "Ed Miliband wants to Weaponise the NHS" may be coming to a poster near you soon....
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Feel so sad for a lovely and talented French friend whose 33rd birthday it is today. She is a Parisian journalist and will know many of those murdered or maimed.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015
    isam said:

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    So what do we think should be done with Brits returning from fighting for ISIS?
    Perhaps someone better informed about such matters should seriously consider locking them up?
  • Patrick said:

    And therefore, to my mind, there can be precisely zero 'we brought it on ourselves' horseshit about this one.

    You just wait, those voices will be out in force on the media soon enough.

  • RodCrosby said:

    Le Figaro confirms all the top cartoonists are dead...

    France's best-known cartoonists for over 40 years.

    How many Muslims did those cartoonists kill? Exactly...
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Patrick said:

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    And therefore, to my mind, there can be precisely zero 'we brought it on ourselves' horseshit about this one.
    I agree with that.

  • Nous sommes tous Français maintenant

    Makes a change from you calling them "Frogs"!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    So what do we think should be done with Brits returning from fighting for ISIS?
    Perhaps someone better informed about such matters should seriously consider locking them up?
    Here is Emily Thornberry's take

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA8nABHLQQA
  • Nous sommes tous Français maintenant

    Makes a change from you calling them "Frogs"!
    They call me Les Rosbif.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Personally speaking, although nowhere near the same scale of casualties, I feel this is on a par with 9/11 in terms of significance.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,378
    edited January 2015
    I suppose we have to discuss the political impact of this attack and the first thing that come's to mind is that it will (at least for a few day's) wipe the NHS off the headlines. It will also over-shadow today's PMQ's.

    I would say both these things are relatively bad news for Labour and Ed Miliband...
  • Look at these two fine principled councillors who have seen the light, and defected to the Conservative Party from the Lib Dems.

    http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/News/11704643.Two_Liberal_Democrat_councillors_defect_to_the_Conservative_group/
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Patrick said:

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    I would take a different line: This attack was not against a country but against an idea - fredom of speech to criticise Islam. It's not a revenge for Gitmo or Bin Laden or drone strikes or anything. It is purely and simply getting back at those who sought to exercise their freedom of speech. And therefore, to my mind, there can be precisely zero 'we brought it on ourselves' horseshit about this one. An act of pure unadulterated evil [snip].
    This pains me to say it, but I quite agree.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    The fact they are now on the run, apparently, rather than being killed at the scene is also different.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.
  • Nous sommes tous Français maintenant

    Makes a change from you calling them "Frogs"!
    They call me Les Rosbif.
    http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/01/English-Frontcover.jpg
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited January 2015
    Patrick said:

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?



    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    I would take a different line: This attack was not against a country but against an idea - fredom of speech to criticise Islam. It's not a revenge for Gitmo or Bin Laden or drone strikes or anything. It is purely and simply getting back at those who sought to exercise their freedom of speech. And therefore, to my mind, there can be precisely zero 'we brought it on ourselves' horseshit about this one. An act of pure unadulterated evil by the religion of piss.
    It's a religion that adulates a war mongerer and child molester as the perfect man. It's completely backwards and irrational.
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.

    I agree with much of that, but If you believe in freedom of speech how can you possibly believe in closing down any institution that opposes it?

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Thornberry what a total Dork.. as much in touch as her boss..
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.

    Do you think Nigel Farage would/will?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited January 2015

    FPT

    Patrick said:
    » show previous quotes
    Out of genuine interest - why do you see this new attack as especially different from others in the past or those yet to come? What has this one changed?

    ...

    The apparent 'professionalism' of those involved. Look at the footage - they've trained to kill. It's not a lone wolf amateur driving into pedestrians in Tours, or someone stabbing a policeman in Lyon.

    This is precisely why Theresa May has been given a hard time in the press. And why those who have been giving her that hard time are profoundly wrong.

    The abstract concept of "returning IS fighters" is now being played out on the streets. First at the Jewish Museum in Belgium, where a likely returning IS fighter opened fire with an AK and now this in Paris. Same MO. Trained, or at least experienced fighters returning from Syria/Iraq with access to weapons and the intent to bring the fight to the west.

    It is why what to do with the returnees is not just an interesting thought game.

    (Edited: deleted the albeit justified hyperbole)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034

    Nous sommes tous Français maintenant

    Makes a change from you calling them "Frogs"!
    They call me Les Rosbif.
    http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/01/English-Frontcover.jpg
    A story of France and Britain, in comic form

    http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/609/815/941.png
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    How fucking pathetic of the Telegraph to pixelate this image:

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/charlie-hebdo-moha_3156721c.jpg
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Look at these two fine principled councillors who have seen the light, and defected to the Conservative Party from the Lib Dems.

    http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/News/11704643.Two_Liberal_Democrat_councillors_defect_to_the_Conservative_group/

    We finally learn the true reason for JohnO's late night trips to the Bournemouth area. Clearly he has been working on this for some time.

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited January 2015
    Sky news

    Those killed were called out by name in Editors meeting inside the office before being shot. Police guards were approached and shot at point blank range as the gunmen entered no sign of a gunfight.

    Sky stating they knew precisely who they wanted and it was a very efficient and well planned operation completed calmly and methodically.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.
    After each attack, I suspect the ranks of the appeasers, as you call them, becomes smaller still.
  • Socrates said:

    How fucking pathetic of the Telegraph to pixelate this image:

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/charlie-hebdo-moha_3156721c.jpg

    What's your name? Where do you live?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.

    I agree with much of that, but If you believe in freedom of speech how can you possibly believe in closing down any institution that opposes it?

    Because schools are a different category. Children do not yet have fully reasoning minds and can get indoctrinated easily.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015
    Moses_ said:

    Sky news

    Those killed were called out by name in Editors meeting inside the office before being shot. Police guards were approached and shot at point blank range as the gunmen entered no sign of a gunfight.

    Sky stating they knew precisely who they wanted and it was a very efficient and well planned operation completed calmly and methodically.

    I wonder what Thornberry would have to say?

    Like I said, this changes the game.

  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.

    I agree with much of that, but If you believe in freedom of speech how can you possibly believe in closing down any institution that opposes it?

    Because schools are a different category. Children do not yet have fully reasoning minds and can get indoctrinated easily.

    Fair enough.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    Socrates said:

    How fucking pathetic of the Telegraph to pixelate this image:

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/charlie-hebdo-moha_3156721c.jpg

    I'd be genuinely scared if I were the picture editor posting that. I agree that the censorship of any depictions of Mohammed is pretty crazy. I particularly enjoy that South Park episode that covers this, where you can't see Mohammed but you see Buddha snorting coke.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RobD said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.
    After each attack, I suspect the ranks of the appeasers, as you call them, becomes smaller still.
    Tbh I dont think there were ever many people on the side of those who seek to shoot, bomb or behead innocent civilians. Not seeking to, for example, intern muslim men without trial or stop immigration from muslim countries (both positions advocated by some pbc posters over the years) is not the same as appeasing these people.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Moses_ said:

    Sky news

    Those killed were called out by name in Editors meeting inside the office before being shot. Police guards were approached and shot at point blank range as the gunmen entered no sign of a gunfight.

    Sky stating they knew precisely who they wanted and it was a very efficient and well planned operation completed calmly and methodically.

    Not a suicide mission though - a clue ?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:
    anjemchoudary
    If freedom of expression can be sacrificed for criminalising incitement & hatred, Why not for insulting the Prophet of Allah? #ParisShooting
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries, but any Muslims immigrating here should have an extensive interview about their views on democracy, equal rights etc after swearing an oath on the Koran.

    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas. Any mosque or Muslim group that opposes these campaigns should be frozen out of any government financing. Oh, and any hint of extremism in Muslim schools should be closed down.

    Our government won't do this of course. They're not even prepared to point out that electoral fraud is primarily a Muslim Pakistani problem, or launch a national investigation into the Muslim rape gangs, or permanently close down the trojan horse schools. Our politicians put covering for Muslims ahead of justice and standing up for British principles. That's true of the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives alike.

    David Cameron should stand up today and hold up a copy of the paper showing the cartoons, and say it's important that the attack doesn't limit free speech and hence he's showing it today. But he won't, because the appeasers of Muslim sensitivities will win.

    I agree with much of that, but If you believe in freedom of speech how can you possibly believe in closing down any institution that opposes it?

    "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    13.37 There are reports that the first car the attackers used to escape the scene has been found.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    Indigo said:

    Carnyx said:

    Indigo said:

    [edited]

    I believe its because we have a government which neither values nor defends free speech. See Levinson and Police Scotland.

    Press regulation is not devolved, so you are muddling your governments. As for Police Scotland, they are merely enforcing the law and trying to stop misery being heaped on victims of recent disasters. If they were d4iven to suicide through lack of police action on trolls, you'd presumably complain, or is that all right? It has astounded me how few people on PB actually considered what the tweets in question were - attacking some very vulnerable people.

    https://twitter.com/policescotland/status/549955567960465408

    That say any not ones in connection with a particular crime or event.
    You know, presumably, that you are taking that tweet out of context and that it was issued in the specific context of the online abuse of the Glasgow victims. Nobody can sanely place your interpretation on it - even if it is read out of context. If you can provide documentary evidence, please do so.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited January 2015
    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Socrates said:

    How fucking pathetic of the Telegraph to pixelate this image:

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03156/charlie-hebdo-moha_3156721c.jpg

    The entire media ought to publish the cartoon in full tomorrow. Only by standing together can they defeat these morons.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    This is an appalling clip of part of the attacks:

    WARNING - VERY GRAPHIC

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc6_1420632668

    Seriously, fuck these sickos and their screwed up belief system. Muhammed was a perverted sick fuck of a man that screwed little girls.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    French Ministry of Education "cancels all school outings"...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MikeK posted this a while ago.. especially poignant today

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJB-wjrGsM
  • Remember, cartoonists and comic books are very highly regarded in France. The equivalent might be the creator of Tintin being killed by a Maoist unhappy about Tintin's anti-Communist activities, or a Nazi sympathiser going after Jack Kirby (who drew the iconic cover of Captain America punching Hitler in the face).
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    GIN1138 said:

    I suppose we have to discuss the political impact of this attack and the first thing that come's to mind is that it will (at least for a few day's) wipe the NHS off the headlines. It will also over-shadow today's PMQ's.

    I would say both these things are relatively bad news for Labour and Ed Miliband...

    It was Miliband's political opportunism which stopped the govt and the west from attacking Assad. This undermined the 'ordinary' rebels and fuelled the nutjobs of ISIS.
    These attacks are in fact counter productive. They will bring fear to French muslims as much as non muslims. They expose the terrorists for what they are and will offer justification for actions against them. These terrorists will of course hope and hope and hope again that the reactions are based on bigotry and race and intolerance. Once rationality goes out of the window they have won because in the long run the only defence against terrorism is not to be terrorised and not to lose sight of our own humanity.
  • Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Guido Fawkes has published the offending cartoon..well done GF..
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    laurenzcollins
    Parisians are marching tonight at Place de la République, "for freedom of the press, democracy, and the Republic." http://t.co/dhhbrfnUO1
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
    Well, if he accepts the need for a trial before imprisonment it will be progress of sorts.

  • @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.



    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    Some morons (not you Neil) appear to be trying to "weaponise" this incident and use it for political gain in the GE - pathetic.

  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    @CD13

    Just this week leading politicians in Germany, including Merkel herself, accused those marching against Islamism as being racist.

    The whole governing class of Europe needs to come crashing down. Muslims need to stop being covered for. There is widespread misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism, scepticism of democracy, opposition to free speech and opposition to religious freedom among pretty much every Muslim population in the world, including in this country. All the social democrats, liberals and moderate conservatives know this, but they're never willing to say it. It's pathetic.

    So what's the solution? Stop all immigration from Moslem countries, you will say; but what about the Moslems who are already here? It sounds like today's French murderers were born in the country; as were most (all?) of the ones who committed the London atrocities in 2005.
    As for the ones already here, there need to be public cross-partisan campaigns against homophobia, for female equality, for free speech etc openly targeted as Muslims and Muslim areas.
    So as part of the free speech campaign will Muslims remain free to observe that their religion hates and abhors Jews and homosexuals, and that they agree with this view?
  • Guido Fawkes has published the offending cartoon..well done GF..

    Well in that case I will break the habit of five years and check the site out.
  • RodCrosby said:

    laurenzcollins
    Parisians are marching tonight at Place de la République, "for freedom of the press, democracy, and the Republic." http://t.co/dhhbrfnUO1

    Will Frau Merkel speak out against this march?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.


    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?


    --------------------------------------------------------

    I recommend you read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell.. it is a short speech, three or four pages, from 1977 about the process that leads from ghettoisation to extremism to civil war. I believe it precisely answers your question
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    German chancellor Angela Merkel has made a statement on the attack:

    "This abominable act is not only an attack on the lives of French citizens and their security.

    It is also an attack on freedom of speech and the press, core elements of our free democratic culture. In no way can this be justified."

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    TGOHF said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky news

    Those killed were called out by name in Editors meeting inside the office before being shot. Police guards were approached and shot at point blank range as the gunmen entered no sign of a gunfight.

    Sky stating they knew precisely who they wanted and it was a very efficient and well planned operation completed calmly and methodically.

    Not a suicide mission though - a clue ?
    Yes they had the opportunity to do so but here escape was possibly easier here than from an underground or similar contained area. It certainly infers some sort of military type training and execution for sure. The words " military precision" is being used a lot.


  • Neil said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
    Well, if he accepts the need for a trial before imprisonment it will be progress of sorts.

    To be fair to Sean, when he wanted to intern all Muslims, a bomb had just exploded not far from his house.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    In no way can this be justified."

    You would have thought that didnt need to be said.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Moses_ said:

    It comes to something when the reaction to questioning a faith is not reasoned debate but cold blooded murder.

    You are right - but surely this is not simply that. Its terrorism designed to promote a reaction. This is of course an attack that the liberals and the left will struggle to formulate a reaction to. These are the people who always want to oppose attacks on terrorists and those who promote terrorism. I think there was a democrat who bemoaned 911 for attacking liberal New York which in his mind notionally supported the Palestinian and Arab cause.

    This was not a suicide attack and assuming the perpetrators wanted to stay alive we must assume that was because they wanted to carry out further attacks. If so then again I repeat this is not an attack against cartoonists but a provocation to radicalise other muslims thanks to a hoped for cpunter reaction.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Moses_ said:

    TGOHF said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky news

    Those killed were called out by name in Editors meeting inside the office before being shot. Police guards were approached and shot at point blank range as the gunmen entered no sign of a gunfight.

    Sky stating they knew precisely who they wanted and it was a very efficient and well planned operation completed calmly and methodically.

    Not a suicide mission though - a clue ?
    Yes they had the opportunity to do so but here escape was possibly easier here than from an underground or similar contained area. It certainly infers some sort of military type training and execution for sure. The words " military precision" is being used a lot.


    The fear must be that they might resurface later on at a public place such as a train station.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.

    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?

    Good question. I agree with that.

    One fairly popular view is that it started to take off in the late 1970s, following the overthrow of the Shah of Iran as the trigger, grew through the 80s (Lebanon Civil War, Afghanistan/Soviets etc.) and then became a real globalised problem in the 90s. All of that was a reaction to the dominance of the West - it's cultural and economic globalisation - and the religious counterinsurgency benefited most as it provided robust opposition to that, plus it was in places turbocharged with oil revenue funding by sympathisers in Iran/Saudi Arabia. 9/11 was of course the unequivocal watershed moment.

    Then again, you can construct equally compelling hypotheses that it was a reaction to decolonisation in the 40s/50s (Israel/Palestine, Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia's growth etc.) or trace it back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East during WW1. Or even trace it back to the time of the Madhi in Sudan in the 1880s.

    The latter views fall down, IMHO, because like you I recognise that until the 60s/70s there didn't seem to be a problem.
  • isam said:

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.


    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    I recommend you read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell.. it is a short speech, three or four pages, from 1977 about the process that leads from ghettoisation to extremism to civil war. I believe it precisely answers your question



    Even if you look at much of the Moslem world, though, things have gone horribly backwards. Countries across North Africa and the Middle East were much more socially liberal in the 70s and 80s than they are now. Pakistan even had an elected woman PM a few years back. Can you imagine that now? Even the nature of the terrorism changed - in the 70s and 80s it was revolutionary and socialist, now it is fundamental.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
    Well, if he accepts the need for a trial before imprisonment it will be progress of sorts.

    To be fair to Sean, when he wanted to intern all Muslims, a bomb had just exploded not far from his house.
    What do you think we should do? What would the right response from us look like?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2015

    isam said:

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.


    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    I recommend you read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell.. it is a short speech, three or four pages, from 1977 about the process that leads from ghettoisation to extremism to civil war. I believe it precisely answers your question


    Even if you look at much of the Moslem world, though, things have gone horribly backwards. Countries across North Africa and the Middle East were much more socially liberal in the 70s and 80s than they are now. Pakistan even had an elected woman PM a few years back. Can you imagine that now? Even the nature of the terrorism changed - in the 70s and 80s it was revolutionary and socialist, now it is fundamental.

    And yet.....of the world's most populous Muslim nation -- Indonesia - that's simply not true. It is now South East Asia's only effectively functioning democracy - from kleptocratic dictatorship 15 years ago.

    "Islam" is not the single variable......
  • isam said:

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.


    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    I recommend you read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell.. it is a short speech, three or four pages, from 1977 about the process that leads from ghettoisation to extremism to civil war. I believe it precisely answers your question

    Even if you look at much of the Moslem world, though, things have gone horribly backwards. Countries across North Africa and the Middle East were much more socially liberal in the 70s and 80s than they are now. Pakistan even had an elected woman PM a few years back. Can you imagine that now? Even the nature of the terrorism changed - in the 70s and 80s it was revolutionary and socialist, now it is fundamental.



    We have the House of Saud, Wahhabism and alot of oil money to thank for that.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @socrates

    'I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries'

    Why not? Until such time as the existing community is fully integrated and accepts our core values.

  • isam said:

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.


    All I know for sure is that this did not use to happen. There has been mass Moslem immigration into France, the UK and other parts of Europe since the 1960s, but the terrorism has only started in the last decade or so. As I have said before, I lived in Balsall Heath/Sparkbrook in Birmingham and the area was almost entirely Pakistani Moselm. No-one wore burqas or habibs, there were no hate preachers, everyone felt and was safe. My guess is that if I went back there now it would feel very different. What changed?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    I recommend you read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell.. it is a short speech, three or four pages, from 1977 about the process that leads from ghettoisation to extremism to civil war. I believe it precisely answers your question

    Even if you look at much of the Moslem world, though, things have gone horribly backwards. Countries across North Africa and the Middle East were much more socially liberal in the 70s and 80s than they are now. Pakistan even had an elected woman PM a few years back. Can you imagine that now? Even the nature of the terrorism changed - in the 70s and 80s it was revolutionary and socialist, now it is fundamental.

    And yet.....of the world's most populous Muslim nation -- Indonesia - that's simply not true. It is now South East Asia's only effectively functioning democracy - from kleptocratic dictatorship 15 years ago.

    "Islam" is not the single variable......



    I know that. There never seemed much that united the Turkish Cypriots I knew when I was growing up in Camden and the Pakistanis I lived among when I was at university in Birmingham.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited January 2015
    Islamist terrorism in France has been a significant problem for many years, largely related to their historic links with North Africa and especially Algeria. In the 80s and early 90s France faced some very nasty attacks indeed (bombs on the Paris metro, for example), and the French authorities were, quite rightly, angry that the UK was not taking the problem seriously - at that time, terrorist-linked groups, whom the French suspected of being behind or at least sympathetic to the attacks, were operating quite openly in London. (The UK intelligence services were slow to respond, perhaps because they were focused on the IRA threat.)

    Fast forward to the last few years, and the Islamist terrorism in France has remained a significant problem (not always reported very prominently in the UK media). The current attack might be linked to ISIS and returners from Syria, but it might equally have a North African angle. The fact that the murderers seem to have been trained doesn't necessarily imply a direct ISIS connection.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Patrick said:



    We have the House of Saud, Wahhabism and alot of oil money to thank for that.

    Another reason to cheer the demise of the oil price.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    13.56 Charlie Hebdo cartoonist has told a French newspaper of the moment he encountered the two attackers as they entered the office.
    The gunmen apparently said: "We're al-Qaeda":
    " I had gone to get my daughter at nursery.
    When I arrived in front of the door of the building of the paper, two men hooded and armed brutally threatened us.
    They wanted to come in, go up. I pressed in the code.
    They shot on Wolinski, Cabu... it lasted 5 minutes... I had hidden under my desk... they spoke French perfectly... they said they we're al-Qaeda."
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    john_zims said:

    @socrates

    'I probably wouldn't entirely stop immigration from Muslim countries'

    Why not? Until such time as the existing community is fully integrated and accepts our core values.

    I'm open to persuasion. But as others have pointed out, we currently have free immigration from France, of which 10% is Muslim. That needs to end also.
  • Look at these two fine principled councillors who have seen the light, and defected to the Conservative Party from the Lib Dems.

    http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/News/11704643.Two_Liberal_Democrat_councillors_defect_to_the_Conservative_group/

    Honourable and principled lions in my opinion.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Police looking for "3 gunmen"...
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    How about this for a photo to publish in all the papers tomorrow?

    http://tinyurl.com/n3trcjl
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Does this awful event affect polling or voting intentions?
  • RodCrosby said:

    laurenzcollins
    Parisians are marching tonight at Place de la République, "for freedom of the press, democracy, and the Republic." http://t.co/dhhbrfnUO1

    Will Frau Merkel speak out against this march?
    Can't think why she would do that, or really even why you would imply that she would.
    Used to live just off Republique, with them in spirit tonight.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015

    @isam - "Stop all immigration from Moslem countries"

    50 years ago that might have worked.. If you did it now you can have immigration from Germany & France that would be as much of a problem

    Anyway, I genuinely don't think we should be too hard on muslims about this, or pretend that the bastardised version of Islam responsible for the terrorism is typical of Muslims.

    It is the friction in society caused by the mass immigration that causes the problems, not the people or the religion.

    It is like blaming a match for starting a fire, it needs something to conflict with and at the correct speed, else it is harmless.

    Good question. I agree with that.

    One fairly popular view is that it started to take off in the late 1970s, following the overthrow of the Shah of Iran as the trigger, grew through the 80s (Lebanon Civil War, Afghanistan/Soviets etc.) and then became a real globalised problem in the 90s. All of that was a reaction to the dominance of the West - it's cultural and economic globalisation - and the religious counterinsurgency benefited most as it provided robust opposition to that, plus it was in places turbocharged with oil revenue funding by sympathisers in Iran/Saudi Arabia. 9/11 was of course the unequivocal watershed moment.

    Then again, you can construct equally compelling hypotheses that it was a reaction to decolonisation in the 40s/50s (Israel/Palestine, Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia's growth etc.) or trace it back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East during WW1. Or even trace it back to the time of the Madhi in Sudan in the 1880s.

    The latter views fall down, IMHO, because like you I recognise that until the 60s/70s there didn't seem to be a problem.
    Here is the speech

    I am sorry it comes from what seems to be a nasty website, it's the only link I can find. I read it in an Enoch Powell book I have called "A Nation or No Nation"

    http://commonsense.websanon.com/?p=214

    Explains quite precisely, 38 years ago, the way that mass immigration, and the ghettoization that follows cannot help but lead to extremism, friction, then the violence we have seen today in France
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    2.08pm

    Reuters reports that the headquarters of RPT media group Prisa in Madrid have been evacuated after a “suspicious package” was received. Prisa owns El Pais, among other things.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    New thread
  • Neil said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
    Well, if he accepts the need for a trial before imprisonment it will be progress of sorts.

    To be fair to Sean, when he wanted to intern all Muslims, a bomb had just exploded not far from his house.
    What do you think we should do? What would the right response from us look like?
    I'm not sure.

    I'd end the de fact segregation of the races and cultures that exist in this country for starters.

    I've said a few times on here and elsewhere, I was fortunate that I grew up in the very middle class Dore and not Darnall surrounded by other people of Pakistani heritage.

    My grandparents' generation never indulged in the nonsense some of the latter generation do. My Grandfather was a namazi (proper religous type who prayed 5 times a day) he would never think of hurting anyone or declare a fatwa on someone who offered him a sausage roll.

    My grandfather said I should be very grateful to this country and I am.

    If you're not happy with this country and/or prefer a country to be Islamic, bugger off to the Islamic State.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Socrates said:

    How about this for a photo to publish in all the papers tomorrow?

    http://tinyurl.com/n3trcjl

    I very much doubt it'll happen, particularly given the gunmen are on the loose.

    Given the professionalism in planning and executing the attack, and then escaping. The French security agencies - particularly DCRI - have some serious questions to answer.

    They seem to be more interested in censoring what Wikipedia publish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_générale_de_la_sécurité_intérieure
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    13.35 Anjem Choudary, British hate preacher, tweets:

    Ramblings of an idiot

    Wouldnt today be a good day to stop paying this moron any attention?
    SeanT is trying to get him arrested
    Well, if he accepts the need for a trial before imprisonment it will be progress of sorts.

    To be fair to Sean, when he wanted to intern all Muslims, a bomb had just exploded not far from his house.
    What do you think we should do? What would the right response from us look like?
    I'm not sure.

    I'd end the de fact segregation of the races and cultures that exist in this country for starters.

    I've said a few times on here and elsewhere, I was fortunate that I grew up in the very middle class Dore and not Darnall surrounded by other people of Pakistani heritage.

    My grandparents' generation never indulged in the nonsense some of the latter generation do. My Grandfather was a namazi (proper religous type who prayed 5 times a day) he would never think of hurting anyone or declare a fatwa on someone who offered him a sausage roll.

    My grandfather said I should be very grateful to this country and I am.

    If you're not happy with this country and/or prefer a country to be Islamic, bugger off to the Islamic State.
    Thanks TSE. Sorry, I wasn't in any way suggesting that you justify yourself - and hope it didn't come across that way. I was just genuinely interested in your views and opinion.

    I agree with you. How do you think we might go about ending that de facto segregation, and promote integration? I'm not sure myself.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    I wonder what the German Liberal Elite think of their attitude by turning off the lights. I commented that they were walking a very dangerous tightrope blindfolded.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Of course, if Labour was in power, today would have been a good day to bury bad news about the NHS.
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