''Many things get propped up as they can't stand on their own feet.'
You could add child benefit to your list,after all it's the decision of 'independent ' people to have children.
What other conclusions can you come to, when a policy that potentially closes down many excellent schools and costs the state an additional £ 4,350 per pupil is based on anything other than class hatred & envy?
Re 9. UKIP don't hate the Tories, we pity them for not being what their label says they are. For that matter UKIP don't hate anyone, although we despise socialists and fascists with equal vigour.
So, from previous thread, c600k kids at private school, £6k saving per head on annual education costs, benefit to UK is £3.6bn a year.
Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools.
Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
Re 9. UKIP don't hate the Tories, we pity them for not being what their label says they are. For that matter UKIP don't hate anyone, although we despise socialists and fascists with equal vigour.
Despise? You need to get a grip, they are people who have different beliefs and opinions to you. Not mortal enemies.
So, from previous thread, c600k kids at private school, £6k saving per head on annual education costs, benefit to UK is £3.6bn a year.
Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools.
Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
Saddo
I am not sure you have correctly judged the price elasticity of private education.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
So, from previous thread, c600k kids at private school, £6k saving per head on annual education costs, benefit to UK is £3.6bn a year. Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools. Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
You ignore the socialists belief in the beneficial effects of spending more money from the magic money tree. Also by giving everyone the same cr*p education we will have a socialist nirvana just like communism had in eastern europe.....
Re 9. UKIP don't hate the Tories, we pity them for not being what their label says they are. For that matter UKIP don't hate anyone, although we despise socialists and fascists with equal vigour.
Except that your Nige is happy to plan a coalition/support with the main socialist party lead by Ed Miliband. Despise?
Excellent Thanks TSE for compiling these, will allow me to waste even more of my benefactors time.
As a sciencey kinda bloke, surely reading 16 counts as research for you?
He should team up with the guy who invented that giant trumpet so they could hear his farts in France. Perhaps their combined effort could lead to a device which we could use to counter the effects of any industrial fires sending deadly stench across the channel.
I am not sure you have correctly judged the price elasticity of private education.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
I know from personal experience. If the price goes up, all our Marxist class war chums will do is hurt the poorest parents who sacrifice all kinds of things to get their kids into the best possible school. They really don't care about kids, parents or education, or they'd be focusing on how they get the state system up to the standards of the private schools.
With government spending already unsustainable, Labour Party policy on spending is to get businesses (eg energy cos and banks) and charities (eg private schools) to pay for their spending promises.
Since companies and charities don't get a vote, it might work in the short term - until people realise the consequences of such a policy.
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
They should just be done with it and annex Brussels from Belgium and convert it into an EU capital territory.
So, from previous thread, c600k kids at private school, £6k saving per head on annual education costs, benefit to UK is £3.6bn a year.
Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools.
Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
Saddo
I am not sure you have correctly judged the price elasticity of private education.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
So that's ok then. Squeeze them a bit more.
So Labour can piss it up against the wall somewhere else. Again.
On #8 it's the first chart that is really interesting to me. The number of oldies has risen a lot, but so has the "working-age*" population. I don't know how the comparison would look if you compared the 60s to now. There must be a timeseries for the proportion of the working age population somewhere...
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that it becomes easier to afford lots of old people when you factor in that we have many fewer young people - who are also expensive in terms of healthcare, education, etc. The other thing is that people under the age of 16-18 are expected to live with their parents, because we wouldn't expect them to be able to live on their own.
The same could be said of many old people, who end up being expensively housed in communal establishments, or supported in their isolation by expensive visits. I remember there was talk a few days ago about child benefit, etc, but I wonder whether it would make sense to create a tax break for income tax payers who have their elderly parents living with them.
* Granted it includes 14-18 year olds in that chart, but that's a mere minor detail.
Can't say that Pope Francis' general description of Europe does not strike a chord.
9. No kidding. Hasn't it always been thus?
6. The occasional overexcited statement on revolution in that direction is understandable but can be irritating at times, but I can live with it, as it has made things more exciting.
Scratch the surface and it’s disturbing how common it is in Labour circles to believe that Britain’s newspaper editors gather in darkened rooms to plot the publication of Miliband’s many gaffes. Some, it seems, simply cannot accept that maybe their leader’s poor reputation is of his own making.
@NewJournal: Labour's Tristram Hunt told his plans for private schools are 'offensive bigotry' - by his old fee-paying school http://t.co/KtR2rwLJQK
More squealing will only help Ed.
Maybe.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
I don't understand the argument with private schools and tax. The vast majority are charitable institutions educating children at no cost to the state, not businesses enriching the pockets of loophole seeking shareholders. Plenty of them have been doing it for centuries, and grant all manner of scholarships and bursaries.
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
Re 9. UKIP don't hate the Tories, we pity them for not being what their label says they are. For that matter UKIP don't hate anyone, although we despise socialists and fascists with equal vigour.
Good to see you back in fighting form, Mike, after your under the weatherness.
Thanks for your pity - we are realists and ergo pragmatists. The only party that is not living in cloud-cuckoo land, including your own.
I don't understand the argument with private schools and tax. The vast majority are charitable institutions educating children at no cost to the state, not businesses enriching the pockets of loophole seeking shareholders. Plenty of them have been doing it for centuries, and grant all manner of scholarships and bursaries.
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
A ban would not be legally enforceable. Hence all the rest of the sniping.
Private schools are part of the control system, whereby the high echelons teach some of the country's youth enough to be able to function as intermediate level servants, recruiting them into MI6/MI5, the church, the Army,Navy,RAF officer corps, and other positions where loyalty to the pyramid is always required, such as politics. High intelligence is not required, just blind loyalty. Think Owen Paterson, for example. http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/owen-paterson-versus-theresa-may-at-last-the-expected-tory-splits-over-fracking/
" ‘She doesn’t rate Cameron any more. She did, but not any more,’ confides a friend of the Home Secretary. ‘There was a time early on when she would want to please David, but slowly she has seen just how incompetent that operation is. How the PM will say he will do one thing, only to be drawn in another direction. She’s given up on him.’ "
The most weird thing considering her behavior lately (reckless not cautious) is this:
" But as the leadership speculation grows, so does the criticism. One phrase that never goes away is ‘risk averse’. ‘While some politicians fly by the seat of their pants, Theresa likes to have four parachutes next to the door,’ says a former staffer. Her supporters point out that this is just good practice, and planning is not the same as caution. She was nicknamed ‘Theresa May, or maybe not’, by detractors in opposition. "
So, from previous thread, c600k kids at private school, £6k saving per head on annual education costs, benefit to UK is £3.6bn a year.
Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools.
Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
Saddo
I am not sure you have correctly judged the price elasticity of private education.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
Many will be unable, having already had to sacrifice so much. If they can afford "x", they can afford "x+y" is obvious nonsense. All you have to do is go around the loop a few times - set it up as an iteration. First time round you have x0 and then you set x1 equal to x0+y Either you reach a point (xn) where it breaks down, or you reach infinity.
I confess I was chewing the steering wheel this morning about that idiot's proposals on private schools.
I pay tax on all my income. This pays for my kids' education at state schools. But the local schools are terrible. So I pay for private schooling out of my taxed income. This saves the state about £12K a year from what it would otherwise cost them to educate my kids. It costs me just over £20K a year. Or what in the public sector would be called pension contributions from the public purse. Who is subsidising who here? By paying for private education I am already subsidising the state system by far more than the modest tax breaks given to my kids' school. But this is not enough. The amount I subsidise the state system for out of my taxed income is to be increased so that the staff and resources I pay for are to be used free of charge by the public sector to supposedly compensate for their ineptitude. Because this is fair. Apparently.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
" ‘She doesn’t rate Cameron any more. She did, but not any more,’ confides a friend of the Home Secretary. ‘There was a time early on when she would want to please David, but slowly she has seen just how incompetent that operation is. How the PM will say he will do one thing, only to be drawn in another direction. She’s given up on him.’ "
The most weird thing considering her behavior lately (reckless not cautious) is this:
" But as the leadership speculation grows, so does the criticism. One phrase that never goes away is ‘risk averse’. ‘While some politicians fly by the seat of their pants, Theresa likes to have four parachutes next to the door,’ says a former staffer. Her supporters point out that this is just good practice, and planning is not the same as caution. She was nicknamed ‘Theresa May, or maybe not’, by detractors in opposition. "
She'll need all four of them if she runs for Tory leader.
Interesting she allegedly said this, "The PM (Cameron) will say he will do one thing, only to be drawn in another direction. She’s given up on him."
That confirms exactly what I said on here months ago.
I don't understand the argument with private schools and tax. The vast majority are charitable institutions educating children at no cost to the state, not businesses enriching the pockets of loophole seeking shareholders. Plenty of them have been doing it for centuries, and grant all manner of scholarships and bursaries.
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
A ban would not be legally enforceable. Hence all the rest of the sniping.
They could nationalise the schools through compulsory purchase, the same as with any other enterprise. Legislation and regulation could then be put in place making it too poor a business proposition for any new ones to be set up.
Clement Atlee was lobbied to do it in the 1945 Labour government, as Andrew Marr points out in his excellent book 'A History of Modern Britain'. He didn't because he had too much respect for Haileybury, his old school.
Marr postulates in his book just how different post-war British history might have been had he done so, although I disagree with his conclusions.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
It's the same with the mansion tax. Popular as it undoubtedly is with those priced out of property in London, the money raised is not going to be used to build houses / flats for the young who are paying sky high rents, living at home or unable to buy their own homes. No - that too is going to the NHS.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
It's the same with the mansion tax. Popular as it undoubtedly is with those priced out of property in London, the money raised is not going to be used to build houses / flats for the young who are paying sky high rents, living at home or unable to buy their own homes. No - that too is going to the NHS.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
It's pathetic. It's adolescent gesture politics.
Whereas Dave is planning tax cuts from the magic money tree?
I confess I was chewing the steering wheel this morning about that idiot's proposals on private schools.
I pay tax on all my income. This pays for my kids' education at state schools. But the local schools are terrible. So I pay for private schooling out of my taxed income. This saves the state about £12K a year from what it would otherwise cost them to educate my kids. It costs me just over £20K a year. Or what in the public sector would be called pension contributions from the public purse. Who is subsidising who here? By paying for private education I am already subsidising the state system by far more than the modest tax breaks given to my kids' school. But this is not enough. The amount I subsidise the state system for out of my taxed income is to be increased so that the staff and resources I pay for are to be used free of charge by the public sector to supposedly compensate for their ineptitude. Because this is fair. Apparently.
Even worse than all that was the implied contempt for state schools and their teachers. Poor things: according to Hunt they were unable to prepare their children for Oxbridge or teach them history and could only do it if the history teacher from St Cake's came down and showed them how.
EdM does not have a blank sheet of paper. He is recycling the policies of the 1970's and, to be fair, he told us a while ago in response to someone on the campaign trail who asked him to bring back socialism that that was exactly what he was doing.
DavidL My old private school, Tonbridge, as well as providing bursaries and scholarships is a partner of a Medway Academy and teachers teach there on sabbatical and ex pupils on gap years, while Tonbridge also benefits from learning about some of the methods the Academy uses on bullying etc
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
It's the same with the mansion tax. Popular as it undoubtedly is with those priced out of property in London, the money raised is not going to be used to build houses / flats for the young who are paying sky high rents, living at home or unable to buy their own homes. No - that too is going to the NHS.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
It's pathetic. It's adolescent gesture politics.
Whereas Dave is planning tax cuts from the magic money tree?
Agree. That policy is from La-La-Land. It will have to be paid for. And Cameron has not said how.
But Labour can't really make that criticism since their whole spending policy is based on the magic money tree
One of my first acts as Directly Elected Dictator will be to abolish the department of education, and use the money saved to give to parents as vouchers on private schools.
I confess I was chewing the steering wheel this morning about that idiot's proposals on private schools.
I pay tax on all my income. This pays for my kids' education at state schools. But the local schools are terrible. So I pay for private schooling out of my taxed income. This saves the state about £12K a year from what it would otherwise cost them to educate my kids. It costs me just over £20K a year. Or what in the public sector would be called pension contributions from the public purse. Who is subsidising who here? By paying for private education I am already subsidising the state system by far more than the modest tax breaks given to my kids' school. But this is not enough. The amount I subsidise the state system for out of my taxed income is to be increased so that the staff and resources I pay for are to be used free of charge by the public sector to supposedly compensate for their ineptitude. Because this is fair. Apparently.
Even worse than all that was the implied contempt for state schools and their teachers. Poor things: according to Hunt they were unable to prepare their children for Oxbridge or teach them history and could only do it if the history teacher from St Cake's came down and showed them how.
EdM does not have a blank sheet of paper. He is recycling the policies of the 1970's and, to be fair, he told us a while ago in response to someone on the campaign trail who asked him to bring back socialism that that was exactly what he was doing.
I could write a better Labour manifesto than him.
I agree that there is a lot of excellence in the state system even if there is not locally for me. I also agree that Hunt's attitude is astonishingly patronising. Someone who had the benefit of private education at UCS should know better and show more respect.
The huge problem we have in this country is the loss of the paths to success for those bright kids that were lost with Grammar schools. Grammar schools have lots of problems but we have yet to find an alternative route for those from poorer backgrounds. This is a real and substantial problem that is adversely affecting our economic future. But Hunt has nothing useful to say about it.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
It's the same with the mansion tax. Popular as it undoubtedly is with those priced out of property in London, the money raised is not going to be used to build houses / flats for the young who are paying sky high rents, living at home or unable to buy their own homes. No - that too is going to the NHS.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
It's pathetic. It's adolescent gesture politics.
Whereas Dave is planning tax cuts from the magic money tree?
Agree. That policy is from La-La-Land. It will have to be paid for. And Cameron has not said how.
But Labour can't really make that criticism since their whole spending policy is based on the magic money tree
The IFS say its fully funded and George will not let the OBR look despite numerous calls from Balls I thought.
I don't understand the argument with private schools and tax. The vast majority are charitable institutions educating children at no cost to the state, not businesses enriching the pockets of loophole seeking shareholders. Plenty of them have been doing it for centuries, and grant all manner of scholarships and bursaries.
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
A ban would not be legally enforceable. Hence all the rest of the sniping.
They could nationalise the schools through compulsory purchase, the same as with any other enterprise. Legislation and regulation could then be put in place making it too poor a business proposition for any new ones to be set up.
Clement Atlee was lobbied to do it in the 1945 Labour government, as Andrew Marr points out in his excellent book 'A History of Modern Britain'. He didn't because he had too much respect for Haileybury, his old school.
Marr postulates in his book just how different post-war British history might have been had he done so, although I disagree with his conclusions.
I think you'll find the ECHR (which did not exist in 1945) will have to say something about that. If, say, some parents wanted to give their children a Catholic education, I don't think the state could stop them doing so.
Also independent schools are not businesses. Most of them are charities and charity law will have something to say about it. As far as I can recall, when a charity is wound up it has to give all the money it has back to the charitable givers,
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
I confess I was chewing the steering wheel this morning about that idiot's proposals on private schools.
I pay tax on all my income. This pays for my kids' education at state schools. But the local schools are terrible. So I pay for private schooling out of my taxed income. This saves the state about £12K a year from what it would otherwise cost them to educate my kids. It costs me just over £20K a year. Or what in the public sector would be called pension contributions from the public purse. Who is subsidising who here? By paying for private education I am already subsidising the state system by far more than the modest tax breaks given to my kids' school. But this is not enough. The amount I subsidise the state system for out of my taxed income is to be increased so that the staff and resources I pay for are to be used free of charge by the public sector to supposedly compensate for their ineptitude. Because this is fair. Apparently.
Even worse than all that was the implied contempt for state schools and their teachers. Poor things: according to Hunt they were unable to prepare their children for Oxbridge or teach them history and could only do it if the history teacher from St Cake's came down and showed them how.
EdM does not have a blank sheet of paper. He is recycling the policies of the 1970's and, to be fair, he told us a while ago in response to someone on the campaign trail who asked him to bring back socialism that that was exactly what he was doing.
I could write a better Labour manifesto than him.
I agree that there is a lot of excellence in the state system even if there is not locally for me. I also agree that Hunt's attitude is astonishingly patronising. Someone who had the benefit of private education at UCS should know better and show more respect.
The huge problem we have in this country is the loss of the paths to success for those bright kids that were lost with Grammar schools. Grammar schools have lots of problems but we have yet to find an alternative route for those from poorer backgrounds. This is a real and substantial problem that is adversely affecting our economic future. But Hunt has nothing useful to say about it.
Been saying for years that bringing back grammar schools is hugely important, bright working class kids deserve the chance denied to them by the likes of Crosland, the truly disgusting Shirley Williams and every government for the last fifty years.
That and leaving the EU are my reasons for voting UKIP
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
It's not "lest they annoy the French" (or anyone else), it's "because it would obviously be vetoed by the French". They have a veto on closing the Strasbourg parliament. What do you suggest the parliament and the rest of the member states do?
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
A perfect example of Labour's poverty of ideas is that the only thing they could think of to do with the fines for forex fixing was bung it at the NHS. Is that really the best use of the money Ed Balls can come up with? Were there other options? Or did he simply default to Labour's fetish.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
It's the same with the mansion tax. Popular as it undoubtedly is with those priced out of property in London, the money raised is not going to be used to build houses / flats for the young who are paying sky high rents, living at home or unable to buy their own homes. No - that too is going to the NHS.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
It's pathetic. It's adolescent gesture politics.
Whereas Dave is planning tax cuts from the magic money tree?
Agree. That policy is from La-La-Land. It will have to be paid for. And Cameron has not said how.
But Labour can't really make that criticism since their whole spending policy is based on the magic money tree
The IFS say its fully funded and George will not let the OBR look despite numerous calls from Balls I thought.
Has an independent source said its not funded?
I've no idea whether it's funded. I thought that they would only do the cuts when the deficit had been eliminated i.e. on the 2nd of never.......
I don't understand the argument with private schools and tax. The vast majority are charitable institutions educating children at no cost to the state, not businesses enriching the pockets of loophole seeking shareholders. Plenty of them have been doing it for centuries, and grant all manner of scholarships and bursaries.
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
A ban would not be legally enforceable. Hence all the rest of the sniping.
They could nationalise the schools through compulsory purchase, the same as with any other enterprise. Legislation and regulation could then be put in place making it too poor a business proposition for any new ones to be set up.
Clement Atlee was lobbied to do it in the 1945 Labour government, as Andrew Marr points out in his excellent book 'A History of Modern Britain'. He didn't because he had too much respect for Haileybury, his old school.
Marr postulates in his book just how different post-war British history might have been had he done so, although I disagree with his conclusions.
I think you'll find the ECHR (which did not exist in 1945) will have to say something about that. If, say, some parents wanted to give their children a Catholic education, I don't think the state could stop them doing so.
Also independent schools are not businesses. Most of them are charities and charity law will have something to say about it. As far as I can recall, when a charity is wound up it has to give all the money it has back to the charitable givers,
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
DavidL My old private school, Tonbridge, as well as providing bursaries and scholarships is a partner of a Medway Academy and teachers teach there on sabbatical and ex pupils on gap years, while Tonbridge also benefits from learning about some of the methods the Academy uses on bullying etc
Co-operation and shared experiences are undoubtedly a good thing. My kid's school make their excellent sports facilities available to local children with talent that can benefit from them.
But the argument that these schools are being subsidised instead of actually subsidising the state sector is completely false. And dishonest. And pathetic.
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
It's not "lest they annoy the French" (or anyone else), it's "because it would obviously be vetoed by the French". They have a veto on closing the Strasbourg parliament. What do you suggest the parliament and the rest of the member states do?
Vote to hold all the sessions in Brussels, they can leave Strasbourg open but unused.
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
It's not "lest they annoy the French" (or anyone else), it's "because it would obviously be vetoed by the French". They have a veto on closing the Strasbourg parliament. What do you suggest the parliament and the rest of the member states do?
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
If education doesn't deserve tax advantages what charitable activity does? Aren't there something like 100,000 charities in the UK? How many of them would pass muster with Ed's inquisitors? But I don't expect Ed to crack down on other charities that don't deserve the name.
DavidL My old private school, Tonbridge, as well as providing bursaries and scholarships is a partner of a Medway Academy and teachers teach there on sabbatical and ex pupils on gap years, while Tonbridge also benefits from learning about some of the methods the Academy uses on bullying etc
Co-operation and shared experiences are undoubtedly a good thing. My kid's school make their excellent sports facilities available to local children with talent that can benefit from them.
But the argument that these schools are being subsidised instead of actually subsidising the state sector is completely false. And dishonest. And pathetic.
My old school lets the nation use their rowing lake for olympic training.
@NewJournal: Labour's Tristram Hunt told his plans for private schools are 'offensive bigotry' - by his old fee-paying school http://t.co/KtR2rwLJQK
More squealing will only help Ed.
Maybe.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
My Dyslexic, autistic son was utterly failed by the state system and is now thriving in a independent school.
The school were kind enough to provide a bursary as they recognised his need.
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
If education doesn't deserve tax advantages what charitable activity does? Aren't there something like 100,000 charities in the UK? How many of them would pass muster with Ed's inquisitors? But I don't expect Ed to crack down on other charities that don't deserve the name.
And some of them are tax wheezes. Labour wouldn't even like a clampdown on those.
If the Marxist dream of stopping school's being charities became real one day, they'd become businesses and have to charge VAT on fees. 20% increase in cost overnight.
Not necessarily - only 24 more hours has passed since Rochester.
There should be some bounceback by the start of next week - but I wouldn't be at all sure of any before then.
We will see,
From the Express a poll about which party was most in touch with ordinary WWC
Asked which party was most in touch with the views of white working class people, 27 per cent of people named Ukip compared to 21 per cent who pointed to Labour.
Just nine per cent identified the Conservatives and two per cent the Lib Dems, although 29 per cent said none of the parties was in touch.
Having attended one Public School, sent children to two others, I have to say that all three that I had involvement with were active and keen on local community involvement, enrichment integration, educated pupils to have a social conscience and were fully involved in many ways in the local community, to the benefit of the locals (or do I mean plebs, as that is the way Labour appear to be trying to paint things).
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
Eccentricity is not moderated by the passage of time! But in the absence of a general education system it must have made more sense.
@NewJournal: Labour's Tristram Hunt told his plans for private schools are 'offensive bigotry' - by his old fee-paying school http://t.co/KtR2rwLJQK
More squealing will only help Ed.
Maybe.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
My Dyslexic, autistic son was utterly failed by the state system and is now thriving in a independent school.
The school were kind enough to provide a bursary as they recognised his need.
On top of that the rather large cost of meeting my sons needs from the public purse has now been removed.
The school provides far more than the State were prepared to provide to him.
Oh and I still provide a huge tax haul for the Government to piss up the wall.
So the Labour bounce yesterday lasted all of a day and they are still 2 points away from that crucial 35%. UKIP down 2 and Tories up 2 shows all that has happened is Tories have moved to UKIP and now back again
If it hastens the realisation that the GP system as we have it was suited to 1940s to 1980s and is no longer fit for purpose to fulfil the role in a modern NHS, then it will be progress.
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
If education doesn't deserve tax advantages what charitable activity does? Aren't there something like 100,000 charities in the UK? How many of them would pass muster with Ed's inquisitors? But I don't expect Ed to crack down on other charities that don't deserve the name.
And some of them are tax wheezes. Labour wouldn't even like a clampdown on those.
To be honest, I don't really like tax exemptions, so I'm not opposed in principle to more organisations paying taxes they currently avoid. But Labour's plan to tax public schools has little to do with the money, and more to do with Labour's prejudices that everybody must have the same education, and that the state knows best. If they were really bothered about the potential abuse of charitable status they'd be casting the net much wider.
I am very amused that Pope Francis made his highly critical address of the EU at the Parliament in Strasbourg - one of the most visible examples of where the EU has gone wrong. Obsessed by history, unprepared to do things that need doing lest they annoy the French someone. An EU that was at least pretending to be serious would get rid of the Parliament in Strasbourg, but the present EU isn't even pretending.
It's not "lest they annoy the French" (or anyone else), it's "because it would obviously be vetoed by the French". They have a veto on closing the Strasbourg parliament. What do you suggest the parliament and the rest of the member states do?
Sure, France has a veto. All of the other member states equally have a veto on a whole bunch of stuff.
If someone was to grab the EU by the scruff of its neck they would be able to have a showdown over this sort of thing and force France to back down. It might need some leader with the charisma and cross-European appeal to win a genuine democratic mandate, for example. That's roughly the way in which the veto power of the House of Lords was broken in the British political system, for example.
Instead the response is, a shrug of the shoulders, "the French have a veto", and nothing is done.
Thus the EU will die. Rejected by its populace for its manifest incompetence.
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
If education doesn't deserve tax advantages what charitable activity does? Aren't there something like 100,000 charities in the UK? How many of them would pass muster with Ed's inquisitors? But I don't expect Ed to crack down on other charities that don't deserve the name.
And some of them are tax wheezes. Labour wouldn't even like a clampdown on those.
Indeed, I cannot help but wonder at Gordon Brown's charity.
Comments
Thanks TSE for compiling these, will allow me to waste even more of my benefactors time.
FPT
''Many things get propped up as they can't stand on their own feet.'
You could add child benefit to your list,after all it's the decision of 'independent ' people to have children.
What other conclusions can you come to, when a policy that potentially closes down many excellent schools and costs the state an additional £ 4,350 per pupil is based on anything other than class hatred & envy?
For that matter UKIP don't hate anyone, although we despise socialists and fascists with equal vigour.
Total value of business rate reduction to schools is £165m a year, or 27,500 kids pulled out of the schools due to cost increases resulting, or 4.6% reduction in kids at private schools.
Everytime Labour comes out with another of its stupid new policy ideas, you have to think none of them have a GCSE in maths
I am not sure you have correctly judged the price elasticity of private education.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
Many parents sacrifice a lot for their kids to go to private school, many will be prepared to pay a little extra, so not many will pull out from private school.
I know from personal experience. If the price goes up, all our Marxist class war chums will do is hurt the poorest parents who sacrifice all kinds of things to get their kids into the best possible school. They really don't care about kids, parents or education, or they'd be focusing on how they get the state system up to the standards of the private schools.
Since companies and charities don't get a vote, it might work in the short term - until people realise the consequences of such a policy.
So Labour can piss it up against the wall somewhere else. Again.
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that it becomes easier to afford lots of old people when you factor in that we have many fewer young people - who are also expensive in terms of healthcare, education, etc. The other thing is that people under the age of 16-18 are expected to live with their parents, because we wouldn't expect them to be able to live on their own.
The same could be said of many old people, who end up being expensively housed in communal establishments, or supported in their isolation by expensive visits. I remember there was talk a few days ago about child benefit, etc, but I wonder whether it would make sense to create a tax break for income tax payers who have their elderly parents living with them.
* Granted it includes 14-18 year olds in that chart, but that's a mere minor detail.
Bet confirmed.
You can have 17.5% if you want.
The difference would barely buy a swift half in London anyway :-(
9. No kidding. Hasn't it always been thus?
6. The occasional overexcited statement on revolution in that direction is understandable but can be irritating at times, but I can live with it, as it has made things more exciting.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/25/conspiracy-theories-secret-oil-fields-north-sea
Scratch the surface and it’s disturbing how common it is in Labour circles to believe that Britain’s newspaper editors gather in darkened rooms to plot the publication of Miliband’s many gaffes. Some, it seems, simply cannot accept that maybe their leader’s poor reputation is of his own making.
@Moses: thank you for your response on the previous thread.
But what was notable to me from this morning's interview was that the Shadow Education Secretary had absolutely nothing to say about how he was going to improve state schools where over 90% of our children are educated. Nothing. That ought to worry every Labour supporter and every parent in the country.
Alistair Heath describing Labour under Ed as anti capitalist class warriors
So, nothing new really
If Labour don't like them, and think they're socially divisive, they should have the courage of their convictions: commit to banning them in their manifesto. If they don't, or think that'd be counter-productive, they should instead focus on improving the quality state education instead, and drive the private schools out of business.
If this mood-music did become anything more than just grandstanding, all it would do is drive out of business the smaller private schools. It would leave larger public schools - those that charge much higher fees - with an even more commanding position in the market, taking in an ever greater proportion of their pupils from the international super-rich to compensate.
That would achieve nothing for British children, and win the respect of no-one.
Thanks for your pity - we are realists and ergo pragmatists. The only party that is not living in cloud-cuckoo land, including your own.
http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/owen-paterson-versus-theresa-may-at-last-the-expected-tory-splits-over-fracking/
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/11/theresa-may-a-big-beast-in-kitten-heels/?preview=true
" ‘She doesn’t rate Cameron any more. She did, but not any more,’ confides a friend of the Home Secretary. ‘There was a time early on when she would want to please David, but slowly she has seen just how incompetent that operation is. How the PM will say he will do one thing, only to be drawn in another direction. She’s given up on him.’ "
The most weird thing considering her behavior lately (reckless not cautious) is this:
" But as the leadership speculation grows, so does the criticism. One phrase that never goes away is ‘risk averse’. ‘While some politicians fly by the seat of their pants, Theresa likes to have four parachutes next to the door,’ says a former staffer. Her supporters point out that this is just good practice, and planning is not the same as caution. She was nicknamed ‘Theresa May, or maybe not’, by detractors in opposition. "
If they can afford "x", they can afford "x+y" is obvious nonsense. All you have to do is go around the loop a few times - set it up as an iteration. First time round you have x0 and then you set x1 equal to x0+y
Either you reach a point (xn) where it breaks down, or you reach infinity.
I pay tax on all my income. This pays for my kids' education at state schools.
But the local schools are terrible.
So I pay for private schooling out of my taxed income.
This saves the state about £12K a year from what it would otherwise cost them to educate my kids.
It costs me just over £20K a year. Or what in the public sector would be called pension contributions from the public purse.
Who is subsidising who here?
By paying for private education I am already subsidising the state system by far more than the modest tax breaks given to my kids' school.
But this is not enough. The amount I subsidise the state system for out of my taxed income is to be increased so that the staff and resources I pay for are to be used free of charge by the public sector to supposedly compensate for their ineptitude.
Because this is fair.
Apparently.
What a depressing shower our politicians are.
Interesting she allegedly said this, "The PM (Cameron) will say he will do one thing, only to be drawn in another direction. She’s given up on him."
That confirms exactly what I said on here months ago.
I obviously spend too much time with lawyers (occupational hazard) but I think it is fair to say that she is extremely unpopular amongst them.
Clement Atlee was lobbied to do it in the 1945 Labour government, as Andrew Marr points out in his excellent book 'A History of Modern Britain'. He didn't because he had too much respect for Haileybury, his old school.
Marr postulates in his book just how different post-war British history might have been had he done so, although I disagree with his conclusions.
As if the only thing the state should spend money on is this.
It's pathetic. It's adolescent gesture politics.
EdM does not have a blank sheet of paper. He is recycling the policies of the 1970's and, to be fair, he told us a while ago in response to someone on the campaign trail who asked him to bring back socialism that that was exactly what he was doing.
I could write a better Labour manifesto than him.
But Labour can't really make that criticism since their whole spending policy is based on the magic money tree
The huge problem we have in this country is the loss of the paths to success for those bright kids that were lost with Grammar schools. Grammar schools have lots of problems but we have yet to find an alternative route for those from poorer backgrounds. This is a real and substantial problem that is adversely affecting our economic future. But Hunt has nothing useful to say about it.
Has an independent source said its not funded?
Also independent schools are not businesses. Most of them are charities and charity law will have something to say about it. As far as I can recall, when a charity is wound up it has to give all the money it has back to the charitable givers,
Pace NickPalmer's comment yesterday: the fact that schools have charitable status is not some recent "eccentricity" (as he put it). Education has been a charitable activity since the time of Queen Elizabeth the First.
There should be some bounceback by the start of next week - but I wouldn't be at all sure of any before then.
That and leaving the EU are my reasons for voting UKIP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI_of_England
(see legacy)
But the argument that these schools are being subsidised instead of actually subsidising the state sector is completely false. And dishonest. And pathetic.
But I guess that won't count, right?
The school were kind enough to provide a bursary as they recognised his need.
Nice eh.
From the Express a poll about which party was most in touch with ordinary WWC
Asked which party was most in touch with the views of white working class people, 27 per cent of people named Ukip compared to 21 per cent who pointed to Labour.
Just nine per cent identified the Conservatives and two per cent the Lib Dems, although 29 per cent said none of the parties was in touch.
YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops to one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 7%, UKIP 16%, GRN 6%
YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops to one point: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 7%, UKIP 16%, GRN 6%
Lab = Man City
Tories = Bayern
Tories = Depeche Mode
Lab = Joe Dolce
Or
Tories = The Wrath of Khan
Lab = The Final Frontier
The school provides far more than the State were prepared to provide to him.
Oh and I still provide a huge tax haul for the Government to piss up the wall.
Reforms of NHS going well then
It isn't a brilliant understanding and knowledge of history, but it was giving a lot of self confidence in oneself.
Tonights YG LAB 326 CON 277 LD 19 (UKPR)
EICIPM
If someone was to grab the EU by the scruff of its neck they would be able to have a showdown over this sort of thing and force France to back down. It might need some leader with the charisma and cross-European appeal to win a genuine democratic mandate, for example. That's roughly the way in which the veto power of the House of Lords was broken in the British political system, for example.
Instead the response is, a shrug of the shoulders, "the French have a veto", and nothing is done.
Thus the EU will die. Rejected by its populace for its manifest incompetence.
Where would the world be without it.