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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest betting prices – GE2015 and possible UKIP defections

SystemSystem Posts: 11,697
edited November 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest betting prices – GE2015 and possible UKIP defections

Only change on Sporting Index http://t.co/56fhx8BJCR GE spreads. LDs up one seat pic.twitter.com/1P3z6gIpFO

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited November 2014
    Quite.

    Ukip and Labour too high and Conservatives a little shy.
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    Brilliant interception and try from Ireland. Bye bye that bet.
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    I still can't quite believe the odds for UKIP being 9.5-11.5 seats. Anyone who suggested that a year ago would have been laughed out of forum.
  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited November 2014
    FPT
    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    Quite, a lot of people HAVE forgotten that. And it may well be the case that an Islamic education would be a much better education than the degenerate and anarchic education they would get in a bog standard sink comprehensive, even for non muslims. They certainly will not be expected to have to go through putting rubber devices on bananas.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited November 2014
    Switzerland win the doubles to take a 2-1 lead against France in the final of the Davis Cup
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044

    I still can't quite believe the odds for UKIP being 9.5-11.5 seats. Anyone who suggested that a year ago would have been laughed out of forum.

    To be fair, the most likely outcome is still 5-6 seats, it's just that it's the nature of spread betting that the asymetrical pay-off means that that anyone (who believed the most likely seats was 3 or 4) would still be a buyer at 6. If that makes sense :-)
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    I still can't quite believe the odds for UKIP being 9.5-11.5 seats. Anyone who suggested that a year ago would have been laughed out of forum.

    They're overstated in spread betting because of the zero bound.
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    edited November 2014
    Jeez, should have put some more on Oz, two tries in just a few minutes and it's 17-12.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044
    Burnley win! YaY!
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    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Fantastico.

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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014
    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Fantastico.

    Just so you know, Crowdscores got you news of the goals two minutes before the BBC :-)
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044
    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.
    Have you heard the songs sung by Rangers and Celtic supporters when they're playing each other?

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Fantastico.

    Just so you know, Crowdscores got you news of the goals two minutes before the BBC :-)
    We'll worry when they get the goals one minute before they happen... ;-)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulhutcheon: Pat Rafferty, the @unitetheunion chief, has written to @uklabour gen sec Iain McNicol about the running of the Scottish l-ship contest

    @paulhutcheon: I reckon the @scottishlabour hustings on the BBC tomorrow will now be lively...
  • Options
    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    edited November 2014
    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
  • Options
    Swiss_Bob said:

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
    Oops. Hammers lose :(
  • Options
    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
  • Options

    Swiss_Bob said:

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
    Oops. Hammers lose :(
    5th in the league, you must be in heaven.

    Do the fans still want Allardyce sacked? :-)
  • Options

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    India?
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Good value there for the Conservatives, but some of you will no doubt think that's my pro-Tory bias :)

    Are we expecting any polls tonight?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,376
    edited November 2014
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    India?
    India wasn't independent until the 15th August 1947 :)
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited November 2014
    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    This is a great moment Jack. Burnley have now won more points away from home than ever before in a whole season in the Premiership

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    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
    Oops. Hammers lose :(
    5th in the league, you must be in heaven.

    Do the fans still want Allardyce sacked? :-)
    Me personally, not yet :)

    But we were 4th a couple of weeks back!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,889

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    There was no chance that Jinnah an his supporters would have agreed to be part of a Hindu-majority State, in 1947.

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    The Burnley miracle portends a once in a century Welsh victory over the mighty All Blacks.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Here's a typical lefty wingers hypocriscsy ... sOutham Observer FPT

    "In other words, it was an honest Tweet from a middle class politician who like almost all other middle class politicians from all parties spends almost no time with people who fly flags out of their windows, drive white vans and are covered in tattoos. "

    Just roll the beauty of that post around for a while and admire the design, style and technicolor hypocriscsy. The denigration of the white van man continues as someone of lesser worth than them goes to show this is how the left all think. Yet they want their votes while accusing Tories and UKIP and others of being out of touch in a similar way in a vain attempt to spread the blame as far as possible.. Its quite simply utterly laughable.

    We all also know for sure that had a Tory , Kipper or another tweeted this photo then these same lefties just like SObs would be ripping the into them without mercy or making lame excuses like this. I don't mind it they did rip into the person its just tthe utter hypocritical positioning that the left always take that gets me.
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    edited November 2014

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    India?
    India wasn't independent until the 15th August 1947 :)
    ?

    In early 1947, Britain announced the decision to end its rule in India. In June 1947, the nationalist leaders of British India—including Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad representing the Congress, Jinnah representing the Muslim League, and Master Tara Singh representing the Sikhs—agreed to the proposed terms of transfer of power and independence.

    The modern state of Pakistan was established on 14 August 1947 (27 Ramadan 1366 in the Islamic Calendar) in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India, where there was a Muslim majority.


    So basically the British agreed to independence and Pakistan (Jinnah) and India (Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad) got on with partitioning.

    That's my reading of it but as I say Wiki is not the best source but it is quick!

    So technically India :-)
  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited November 2014
    Socrates said:

    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam....If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracythe values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy.

    Oh the non judgementalism.

    A century ago I would have agreed with you about British liberal democracy, but compulsory western degeneracy is not the way to deal with islamism.

    Militant Islamism in the UK is in part another strand of the same phenomenom as UKIP is now and Mary Whitehouse and her supporters were thirty years ago - a rejection of the utter moral degeneracy of our (and the rest of the wests) ruling elite and the culture they have foisted on the rest of us since the dreaded Roy Jenkins became home secretary in the '60s.
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    FPT:
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:



    What do you mean, "you British"? Aren't you British?

    Where do you think the name 'Nino' comes from?

    Clue: not the British Isles.
    I'm not asking where you're from originally. I'm asking whether you're British now.
    Why? Do you think I've somehow managed to change race?
    Niño, British isn't a race.
    That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:

    These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.

    http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
    In 1880......

    the data gave an accurate picture of the genetic makeup of rural Britain in around 1880
    And what has that to do with the price of a loaf of bread?

    As for humans and mosquitoes you are so wrong it's laughable:
    The point is that in 1880 Britain might have been genetically quite homogenous. What the article does not demonstrate is that 134 years later that is still the case, since you clearly need it spelling out.

    And as for 'me and mosquitos' since I didn't raise the point - you're the one who is laughably wrong.....
  • Options

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
    Oops. Hammers lose :(
    5th in the league, you must be in heaven.

    Do the fans still want Allardyce sacked? :-)
    Me personally, not yet :)

    But we were 4th a couple of weeks back!
    You've peaked then!
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    There was no chance that Jinnah an his supporters would have agreed to be part of a Hindu-majority State, in 1947.

    And yet there are almost as many Muslims in modern India as there are in modern Pakistan.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Understandable that the Tories are odds-on to win Rochester in May given Ashcroft's polling and the actual result on Thursday.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,376
    edited November 2014
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    India?
    India wasn't independent until the 15th August 1947 :)
    ?

    In early 1947, Britain announced the decision to end its rule in India. In June 1947, the nationalist leaders of British India—including Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad representing the Congress, Jinnah representing the Muslim League, and Master Tara Singh representing the Sikhs—agreed to the proposed terms of transfer of power and independence.

    The modern state of Pakistan was established on 14 August 1947 (27 Ramadan 1366 in the Islamic Calendar) in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India, where there was a Muslim majority.


    So basically the British agreed to independence and Pakistan (Jinnah) and India (Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad) got on with partitioning.

    That's my reading of it but as I say Wiki is not the best source but it is quick!

    So technically India :-)
    No, Britain granted Independence to Pakistan a day early, 14th August.
    India was granted Independence on the 15th.
    So - Pakistan didn't secede from an independent India.

    Simples :)

    Wiki also has this that might be of interest:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-nation_theory
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Some contrast today at political meetings in Scotland today.

    Lib Dem Conference .... attendance about 100
    Radical Independence.... attendance over 3000
    SNP .............................. attendance 12000 and waiting list for tickets
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2014
    Are we expecting any polls tonight? UKIP need to be close to 20% to keep up the momentum.
  • Options
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    As long as it's not an England flag with a Burnley FC badge.

    Yeehah! Third try from Oz.
    Oops. Hammers lose :(
    5th in the league, you must be in heaven.

    Do the fans still want Allardyce sacked? :-)
    Me personally, not yet :)

    But we were 4th a couple of weeks back!
    You've peaked then!
    But wait! There's more!
  • Options
    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)
  • Options

    FPT:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:



    What do you mean, "you British"? Aren't you British?

    Where do you think the name 'Nino' comes from?

    Clue: not the British Isles.
    I'm not asking where you're from originally. I'm asking whether you're British now.
    Why? Do you think I've somehow managed to change race?
    Niño, British isn't a race.
    That the people of the British Isles are a race or not is a political viewpoint:

    These topical questions – hot potatoes in political debates ranging from potential Scottish independence to Britain’s role in the European Union – have now also been probed at the most fundamental level of all in ground-breaking research by an eminent team of Oxford researchers. The team, led by Oxford geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer, has conducted a detailed and wide-ranging study of the genetic make-up of the Peoples of the British Isles (PoBI). Fascinatingly, their findings show that most people living in the British Isles are fundamentally extremely similar, genetically-speaking at least.

    http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british
    In 1880......

    the data gave an accurate picture of the genetic makeup of rural Britain in around 1880
    And what has that to do with the price of a loaf of bread?

    As for humans and mosquitoes you are so wrong it's laughable:
    The point is that in 1880 Britain might have been genetically quite homogenous. What the article does not demonstrate is that 134 years later that is still the case, since you clearly need it spelling out.

    And as for 'me and mosquitos' since I didn't raise the point - you're the one who is laughably wrong.....
    Apologies, had you confused with MonicadiCanio.

    Your argument does nothing to refute the argument that the people of the British Isles could/should be considered a race.

    Immigration does not eradicate the existing population's race unless we're talking about ethnic cleansing at the same time, which we're not.

    My point was it's political, it's not based on evidence.
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    AndyJS said:

    Are we expecting any polls tonight? UKIP need to be close to 20% to keep up the momentum.

    YouGov tonight, Opinium tomorrow.
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited November 2014

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    I recall part of the reason partition was granted was due to help muslims from that part of the world had given Britain during the second world war, ie we owed them a favour.
  • Options
    Latest image from Rochester.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHWn84loBc
  • Options


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    @_AndreaUrbanFoX 7h
    Bob Geldof was paid $100,000 to give a talk on poverty in Australia. Awkward. http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/for-geldofs-poverty-talk/story-e6freo8c-1111118043626?nk=d34fd31797ae5d22dfb925e709a5e718 … … #BandAid30


  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Following their crushing away win at Stoke will OGH be flying a Burnley FC flag from the windows of Smithson Towers and what will the Labour party collective conclude ?

    A nation awaits ....

    This is a great moment Jack. Burnley have now won more points away from home than ever before in a whole season in the Premiership

    Let joy be unconfined and organic carrot juice and broccoli quiche fill the halls of LibDem Burnley fans nationwide.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,965



    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    @_AndreaUrbanFoX 7h
    Bob Geldof was paid $100,000 to give a talk on poverty in Australia. Awkward. http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/for-geldofs-poverty-talk/story-e6freo8c-1111118043626?nk=d34fd31797ae5d22dfb925e709a5e718 … … #BandAid30


    Only a 100k Aussie dollars ?

    Tony Blair will learn him.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    Evening all :)

    I wanted to comment on David's piece in the previous thread but as I have a life I've only just got back to Stodge Towers.

    David's piece may be about UKIP now but it could have been almost word-for-word about the Alliance in the 1980s. Inevitably, any "third" Party has to define itself with reference to the two traditional major parties whether they draw their support primarily from the one or the other. The "plan" for the Alliance was to supplant Labour and then directly challenge the Conservatives and there was plenty of evidence that once the threat of Labour had been seen to be erased, many Tories would gladly abandon their Party for the Alliance - I saw this first-hand canvassing at Greenwich.

    In truth, the duopoly supports each other - the "fear" of the other side is used to keep the voters in check. If that fear was permanently erased, the duopoly would be in real trouble. Indeed, the combination of the fall of Communism and the successful conversion of Labour by Tony Blair to a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left enabled it to reap millions of ex-Tory votes who no longer believed that voting Labour would usher in a period of darkness.

    UKIP has to contend with that - yes, it has its converts who will stay fierecely loyal but for others tempted the "fear" that by voting for Farage they will allow the opponent to win will be very strong. Ultimately, the LDs could never break that spell - the SNP on the other hand has shown what an insurgant Party CAN achieve - and frankly I suspect Farage won't succeed either.

    The other truth is that the Labour and Conservative Parties have a symbiotic relationship - without the one, the other will not endure.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.
    Have you heard the songs sung by Rangers and Celtic supporters when they're playing each other?

    In areas of indigenous sectarian hatred, we should take a pretty hard line on making local schools teach tolerance too.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,889

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    There was no chance that Jinnah an his supporters would have agreed to be part of a Hindu-majority State, in 1947.

    And yet there are almost as many Muslims in modern India as there are in modern Pakistan.
    That may be so, but do you think the Muslim league, and Muslim soldiers loyal to them, would have just said "that's okay" if the British had announced a single Indian State, and left?
  • Options

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    I recall part of the reason partition was granted was due to help muslims from that part of the world had given Britain during the second world war, ie we owed them a favour.
    The [Two-Nation] theory has been facing scepticism because Muslims did not entirely separate from Hindus and about one-third of all Muslims continued to live in post-partition India as Indian citizens alongside a much larger Hindu majority.[31][32] The subsequent partition of Pakistan itself into the present-day nations of Pakistan and Bangladesh was cited as proof both that Muslims did not constitute one nation and that religion was not a defining factor for nationhood.[31][32][33][34][35]

    Some historians have claimed that the theory was a creation of a few Muslim intellectuals.[36] Prominent Pakistani politician Altaf Hussain of Muttahida Qaumi Movement believes history has proved the two-nation theory wrong.[37] He contended, "The idea of Pakistan was dead at its inception, when the majority of Muslims (in Muslim-minority areas of India) chose to stay back after partition, a truism reiterated in the creation of Bangladesh in 1971.[38]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-nation_theory
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Sean_F

    Here's a good article about the lack of inevitability of partition:

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article/What-If-Attlee-Hadnt-Partitioned-India/287314
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    There was no chance that Jinnah an his supporters would have agreed to be part of a Hindu-majority State, in 1947.

    And yet there are almost as many Muslims in modern India as there are in modern Pakistan.
    That may be so, but do you think the Muslim league, and Muslim soldiers loyal to them, would have just said "that's okay" if the British had announced a single Indian State, and left?
    Assuming an Indian confederation, the Muslim League quite likely would have done. The leadership had its power base in the moderate central belt of India (most of the Muslims that stayed behind). Punjab would have also stayed integrated and was largely moderate. It's all quite possible.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    AndyJS said:

    Are we expecting any polls tonight? UKIP need to be close to 20% to keep up the momentum.

    I don't see why they need to be at 20%. Staying at the 15% or so level would also be good for them.
  • Options
    Socrates said:

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
    I think I told you before Socrates that I would have loved it if the whole goddam Empire were a decentralised federation (backdated to pre-1775, natch!) - then it truly would have been - or indeed would still be - the Greatest Empire in the world!

    The "Imperial Senate" in the Star Wars galaxy would then have been based on a true earth-based counterpart :)
  • Options
    Good evening, everyone.

    Markets are up. I'm rather tired, though, so I might leave it until tomorrow, unless something jumps out at me [though I'd prefer to get the pre-race article up today].
  • Options
    F1: ah, that's why markets were delayed.

    Red Bull excluded from qualifying.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30161617
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are we expecting any polls tonight? UKIP need to be close to 20% to keep up the momentum.

    I don't see why they need to be at 20%. Staying at the 15% or so level would also be good for them.
    I was thinking that perhaps they need to improve a bit in the polls to compensate for slightly underperforming in Rochester compared to what the constituency polls were showing.
  • Options

    Socrates said:

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
    I think I told you before Socrates that I would have loved it if the whole goddam Empire were a decentralised federation (backdated to pre-1775, natch!) - then it truly would have been - or indeed would still be - the Greatest Empire in the world!

    The "Imperial Senate" in the Star Wars galaxy would then have been based on a true earth-based counterpart :)
    Yes, no one with any vision.

    I'm unhappy about the British Isles being disunited.

    You could have government that circulated the capitals every few years with days for 'local' issues to be discussed, keep everyone happy.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
    I think I told you before Socrates that I would have loved it if the whole goddam Empire were a decentralised federation (backdated to pre-1775, natch!) - then it truly would have been - or indeed would still be - the Greatest Empire in the world!

    The "Imperial Senate" in the Star Wars galaxy would then have been based on a true earth-based counterpart :)
    As the EU has shown, throwing together states of very different levels of income into one union is very problematic, and it would be multiplied a lot by the sheer scale of poverty in India. Had the Empire been one federation, Indian politics would have dominated the whole thing due to the massive population advantage.

    A federation of the British Isles and North America could have worked. Australia and New Zealand were too far away.
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    Some contrast today at political meetings in Scotland today.

    Lib Dem Conference .... attendance about 100
    Radical Independence.... attendance over 3000
    SNP .............................. attendance 12000 and waiting list for tickets

    And you still lost. Just how bad was your ground game in the referendum?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are we expecting any polls tonight? UKIP need to be close to 20% to keep up the momentum.

    I don't see why they need to be at 20%. Staying at the 15% or so level would also be good for them.
    I was thinking that perhaps they need to improve a bit in the polls to compensate for slightly underperforming in Rochester compared to what the constituency polls were showing.
    We've seen a very slight downtick in UKIPs position in the polls over the last few weeks, so it'd be good to stop that decline. Of course, as you say, it'd be even better for them to go up!
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2014
    The SNP seem to be benefiting from some sort of "sympathy vote" following the referendum. If YES had won, I imagine it would be Labour experiencing a big membership boost.
  • Options
    Will put the article up shortly. Backed Ricciardo at 2.2 to be top 6. I know the Red Bull's rubbish in a straight line, but it's very good in the corners and Ricciardo's a very good driver.
  • Options
    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    AndyJS said:

    The SNP seem to be benefiting from some sort of "sympathy vote" following the referendum. If YES had won, I imagine it would be Labour experiencing a big membership boost.

    Why would Scottish voters trust Better Together to negotiate Independence?
  • Options
    F1: and here it is. Sleepy, so it might be a bit addled:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/abu-dhabi-pre-race.html
  • Options

    Will put the article up shortly. Backed Ricciardo at 2.2 to be top 6. I know the Red Bull's rubbish in a straight line, but it's very good in the corners and Ricciardo's a very good driver.

    Will Red Bull even start after their wing problems?
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Will put the article up shortly. Backed Ricciardo at 2.2 to be top 6. I know the Red Bull's rubbish in a straight line, but it's very good in the corners and Ricciardo's a very good driver.

    There are no fast corners here, so that's quite a 'bold' tip.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Monkeys said:

    AndyJS said:

    The SNP seem to be benefiting from some sort of "sympathy vote" following the referendum. If YES had won, I imagine it would be Labour experiencing a big membership boost.

    Why would Scottish voters trust Better Together to negotiate Independence?
    "Sympathy votes" aren't logical. The SNP ought to be losing members at the moment because they've just lost the referendum they spent the last five years saying they were determined to win.
  • Options
    Mr. L, BBC article says they will, they'll just have to stiffen the front wing.
  • Options
    Mr. Maaarsh, Ricciardo's the fifth-fastest chap out there. We've seen all season how good he is at overtaking.

    Of course, he could end up failing horrendously, and I'll look as silly as a mongoose wearing a fez. But then, that's why it's called gambling, rather than prudent investment :p
  • Options
    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    AndyJS said:

    Monkeys said:

    AndyJS said:

    The SNP seem to be benefiting from some sort of "sympathy vote" following the referendum. If YES had won, I imagine it would be Labour experiencing a big membership boost.

    Why would Scottish voters trust Better Together to negotiate Independence?
    "Sympathy votes" aren't logical. The SNP ought to be losing members at the moment because they've just lost the referendum they spent the last five years saying they were determined to win.
    "Sympathy vote," is an illogical assumption - 45 percent of voters have pretty much one party that can win seats and speak for them in Parliament. Better Together's vote is split 3-ways, and their handling of "The Vow," is hilarious, annoying a subset of the 55.

    .
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Mr. Maaarsh, Ricciardo's the fifth-fastest chap out there. We've seen all season how good he is at overtaking.

    Of course, he could end up failing horrendously, and I'll look as silly as a mongoose wearing a fez. But then, that's why it's called gambling, rather than prudent investment :p

    One thing in his favour is starting at the back. He's the worst starter on the grid so at least this is 1 race where he really can't lose that many places.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    Socrates said:


    As the EU has shown, throwing together states of very different levels of income into one union is very problematic, and it would be multiplied a lot by the sheer scale of poverty in India. Had the Empire been one federation, Indian politics would have dominated the whole thing due to the massive population advantage.

    A federation of the British Isles and North America could have worked. Australia and New Zealand were too far away.

    I'm broadly speaking a supporter of European co-operation and collaboration between states. Too much of the pre-1945 history of our Continent illustrated the folly of antagonism and conflict.

    Yet I'm not blind to the disparities - they existed in the 1970s when the likes of Spain, Portugal and Greece emerged from decades of dictatorship into democracy and wanted to secure that democracy within the EEC. Even then, their economies lagged far behind those of France, West Germany and the UK. Even within countries like France and Italy, there were and remain huge regional differences.

    I've often said on here that conservatives, socialists and liberals, for their own seasons, misunderstood and misrepresented the events of 1989-90 just as they had the events of 1918-19. We could and should have done so much better but what we have now is infinitely better than militarily antagonistic power blocs across Europe and hundreds of tanks favcing each other a couple of hours drive from the Rhine.

    The EU is flawed - no question. Had it never come into being or if it fell apart now, what would be the consequence ?
  • Options
    Mr. Maaarsh, well, quite.

    Hamilton must hope the Williams' don't start well. Weirdly, only one of the five races to date have been won by the chap on pole.

    Anyway, I am off.
  • Options
    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited November 2014
    Socrates said:

    @Sean_F

    Here's a good article about the lack of inevitability of partition:

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article/What-If-Attlee-Hadnt-Partitioned-India/287314

    So basically Socialist Centralising Government replaces effective viceroy with regal idiot who facilitates socialist centralising government and millions of deaths after scuttling without a proper settlement.

    What a ghastly party Labour are.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,354
    Quite a bit of UKIP activity in my patch now, though still not very targeted. They're working with two leaflets. There's a small one with 5 points (1 anti-Coalition, 1 anti-Lab, 1 immigration, 1 "positive change" and one "leave the EU and grow the economy") and a bar chart showing them winning the Euros. The larger leaflet has three pages of policy text in tiny print - I've not read it all yet and doubt if many have, but it's clearly intended to answer the "there's just about immigration" line.

    That said, we didn't run into any doorstep flak today - 300-odd contacts in a WWC ward (Kimberley), plenty of Labour and not much UKIP. Two people mentioned Flaggate, but both were Labour loyalists grumbling that it was a distraction. If anything special is happening, we didn't detect it.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Didn't know you were a Burnley fan...

    No excuse: you need to come to our exhibition of Burnley's finest art when it opens in January
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Mr. Maaarsh, well, quite.

    Hamilton must hope the Williams' don't start well. Weirdly, only one of the five races to date have been won by the chap on pole.

    Anyway, I am off.

    Well, Lewis is consistently quicker than Rosberg in the races, and starts with fresher tyres, so the only cloud on his horizon is reliability or Nico rolling the dice on a collision when Lewis goes past.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,376
    edited November 2014
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
    I think I told you before Socrates that I would have loved it if the whole goddam Empire were a decentralised federation (backdated to pre-1775, natch!) - then it truly would have been - or indeed would still be - the Greatest Empire in the world!

    The "Imperial Senate" in the Star Wars galaxy would then have been based on a true earth-based counterpart :)
    As the EU has shown, throwing together states of very different levels of income into one union is very problematic, and it would be multiplied a lot by the sheer scale of poverty in India. Had the Empire been one federation, Indian politics would have dominated the whole thing due to the massive population advantage.

    A federation of the British Isles and North America could have worked. Australia and New Zealand were too far away.
    We're speaking counterfactually of course. If the - for lack of a better word - Greater Commonwealth had been run properly there wouldn't be rampant poverty - or at least not as much poverty as there is today.

    Also by my calculations (which are sometimes correct!), India would now be only 38% of the population including all current Commonwealth states, the USA, other currently non-Commonwealth English-speaking states and the EU - yes, even the EU has English as an official language, so it would qualify :)

    EDIT: Also the digital age would make communication and adminstration much easier.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    The SNP seem to be benefiting from some sort of "sympathy vote" following the referendum. If YES had won, I imagine it would be Labour experiencing a big membership boost.

    Why on Earth do you think it is a sympathy vote?

    It's about 60,000 Scots deciding that they didn't do enough to help make Independence happen, and signing up to be members of the SNP (or Scottish Greens) as the most obvious first step to making sure that they do everything they can to win the next referendum.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    (This may be an urban myth) when Mountbatten was asked what his views were on Partition, with hindsight he replied "Well, I really f***ed that one up, didn't I?"
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11247738/David-Cameron-wont-win-a-majority-insists-Mark-Reckless.html

    "Mr Reckless, who successfully defended his Rochester and Strood seat this week after defecting, said the damage inflicted by his new party on the Tories next May would be "small if any"."
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    stodge said:

    Socrates said:


    As the EU has shown, throwing together states of very different levels of income into one union is very problematic, and it would be multiplied a lot by the sheer scale of poverty in India. Had the Empire been one federation, Indian politics would have dominated the whole thing due to the massive population advantage.

    A federation of the British Isles and North America could have worked. Australia and New Zealand were too far away.

    I'm broadly speaking a supporter of European co-operation and collaboration between states. Too much of the pre-1945 history of our Continent illustrated the folly of antagonism and conflict.

    Yet I'm not blind to the disparities - they existed in the 1970s when the likes of Spain, Portugal and Greece emerged from decades of dictatorship into democracy and wanted to secure that democracy within the EEC. Even then, their economies lagged far behind those of France, West Germany and the UK. Even within countries like France and Italy, there were and remain huge regional differences.

    I've often said on here that conservatives, socialists and liberals, for their own seasons, misunderstood and misrepresented the events of 1989-90 just as they had the events of 1918-19. We could and should have done so much better but what we have now is infinitely better than militarily antagonistic power blocs across Europe and hundreds of tanks favcing each other a couple of hours drive from the Rhine.

    The EU is flawed - no question. Had it never come into being or if it fell apart now, what would be the consequence ?
    Depends whether by "the EU never coming about" you mean just the formation in 1993, or none of the process from 1951.

    The European Union did not end the Cold War. The failure of the Soviet state and Reagan restarting an arms race they couldn't keep up with did. I think it's unforeseeable for there not to be some form of European community in an alternative scenario. It's just the level of integration that was up for debate.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    "Britain appeased Islamism way back in the 1940s by creating Pakistan." - Discuss :)

    Apparently Jinnah would have accepted being part of India as long as it was a decentralised federation but Nehru was a socialist and demanded a strong central state. My view is that we should have backed Jinnah's compromise.
    I think I told you before Socrates that I would have loved it if the whole goddam Empire were a decentralised federation (backdated to pre-1775, natch!) - then it truly would have been - or indeed would still be - the Greatest Empire in the world!

    The "Imperial Senate" in the Star Wars galaxy would then have been based on a true earth-based counterpart :)
    As the EU has shown, throwing together states of very different levels of income into one union is very problematic, and it would be multiplied a lot by the sheer scale of poverty in India. Had the Empire been one federation, Indian politics would have dominated the whole thing due to the massive population advantage.

    A federation of the British Isles and North America could have worked. Australia and New Zealand were too far away.
    We're speaking counterfactually of course. If the - for lack of a better word - Greater Commonwealth had been run properly there wouldn't be rampant poverty - or at least not as much poverty as there is today.

    Also by my calculations (which are sometimes correct!), India would now be only 38% of the population including all current Commonwealth states, the USA, other currently non-Commonwealth English-speaking states and the EU - yes, even the EU has English as an official language, so it would qualify :)

    EDIT: Also the digital age would make communication and adminstration much easier.
    I think you'd have to go back to the very beginning of the formation of British rule in India during the 18th Century to change that. There was endemic poverty in India before we turned up, and corporate rule made it a lot worse. It would be extremely difficult to get India to have an industrial revolution on par with the British. Perhaps the best way to make India as economically strong as possible is to get Fox's India bill go through, but even then I think it would just prevent famines and bit more income, rather than get them to Western European standards.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Oh dear.... Oh dear dear me.

    Labour now moving into mega "China Syndrome"meltdown mode. Quite staggering that it has all fallen apart over one twittered photo. They will never survive months on the hustings, they just won't.



    Sunday Telegraph

    Emily Thornberry row: MPs like Ed Miliband are out of touch, says Hazel Blears

    Career politicians like Ed Miliband are out of touch with voters because they lack experience outside Westminster, Hazel Blears warns, after Emily Thornberry's resignation over her 'sneering' white van man tweet

    #SaveEd#WeLoveEd
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    Socrates said:


    Depends whether by "the EU never coming about" you mean just the formation in 1993, or none of the process from 1951.

    The European Union did not end the Cold War. The failure of the Soviet state and Reagan restarting an arms race they couldn't keep up with did. I think it's unforeseeable for there not to be some form of European community in an alternative scenario. It's just the level of integration that was up for debate.

    I never implied the EU ended the Cold War but the response to the collapse of Communism was, I think, badly wrong and, to her credit, and one of the few things with which I ever agreed with her, Margaret Thatcher was right about the risks of German Reunification. Unfortunately, people thought she was trapped in the WW2 mindset but I'm sure she wasn't. She couldn't stop Helmut Kohl (understandably) or persuade George HW Bush (equally).

    Both the EU and COMECON were the instruments by which the respective controlling superpower of their part of Europe enforced collaboration and co-operation. Inevitably, the American model was primarily economic and equally inevitably the Soviet model was political.

    The economic model had to work because it guaranteed liberal democracy through prosperity whereas the failure of post-WW1 democracy across Europe was the result of economic failure and as we see now economic failure and insecurity provides a direct political challenge to the liberal democratic and capitalist model. When the Iberian dictatorships collapsed in the 1970s, they turned to the economic model of the EEC as a bulwark against the potential threat of Communist political subversion.

  • Options
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Didn't know you were a Burnley fan...

    No excuse: you need to come to our exhibition of Burnley's finest art when it opens in January
    To the extent that Robert has time to be interested in football he is, like his Dad, Alistair Campbell and Prince Charles, a Burnley fan.

    My family come from that part of Lancs where they have a Lib Dem MP who is going to hold his seat next May.

  • Options
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Didn't know you were a Burnley fan...

    No excuse: you need to come to our exhibition of Burnley's finest art when it opens in January
    Like father, like son!
    It's perhaps just as well that Paddy Power didn't choose to settle those bets placed on the Clarets being relegated in much the same manner as he declared Chelsea Premier League Champions yesterday.
  • Options

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Didn't know you were a Burnley fan...

    No excuse: you need to come to our exhibition of Burnley's finest art when it opens in January
    To the extent that Robert has time to be interested in football he is, like his Dad, Alistair Campbell and Prince Charles, a Burnley fan.

    My family come from that part of Lancs where they have a Lib Dem MP who is going to hold his seat next May.

    Southport?
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    stodge said:

    Socrates said:


    Depends whether by "the EU never coming about" you mean just the formation in 1993, or none of the process from 1951.

    The European Union did not end the Cold War. The failure of the Soviet state and Reagan restarting an arms race they couldn't keep up with did. I think it's unforeseeable for there not to be some form of European community in an alternative scenario. It's just the level of integration that was up for debate.

    I never implied the EU ended the Cold War but the response to the collapse of Communism was, I think, badly wrong and, to her credit, and one of the few things with which I ever agreed with her, Margaret Thatcher was right about the risks of German Reunification. Unfortunately, people thought she was trapped in the WW2 mindset but I'm sure she wasn't. She couldn't stop Helmut Kohl (understandably) or persuade George HW Bush (equally).

    Both the EU and COMECON were the instruments by which the respective controlling superpower of their part of Europe enforced collaboration and co-operation. Inevitably, the American model was primarily economic and equally inevitably the Soviet model was political.

    The economic model had to work because it guaranteed liberal democracy through prosperity whereas the failure of post-WW1 democracy across Europe was the result of economic failure and as we see now economic failure and insecurity provides a direct political challenge to the liberal democratic and capitalist model. When the Iberian dictatorships collapsed in the 1970s, they turned to the economic model of the EEC as a bulwark against the potential threat of Communist political subversion.

    It seems like we've swapped sides on Thatcher. I think her opposition to a united Germany, while understandable given history, was completely wrongheaded. The Germans in the two different states were one people and wanted to re-united. It would be very wrong for Britain, France and America to stop that, and them trying to would have likely caused huge anger at the West from Germany, seriously damaging NATO. The reluctance of Germany to step up to the plate in the Eurocrisis some 50 years later shows the depth of their moral renewal since 1945.

    I largely agree with your last paragraph, but I think all that would have been possible without "ever closer union". A close community of nations along the British preferred model could have been great, and we'd have avoided the human misery of the Eurozone crisis (six years and counting...)
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Burnley win! YaY!

    Didn't know you were a Burnley fan...

    No excuse: you need to come to our exhibition of Burnley's finest art when it opens in January
    To the extent that Robert has time to be interested in football he is, like his Dad, Alistair Campbell and Prince Charles, a Burnley fan.

    My family come from that part of Lancs where they have a Lib Dem MP who is going to hold his seat next May.

    Well, then I have no choice but to invite you as well...

    From Cotton to Gold: the Hidden Collections of the Industrial Northwest

    31st January - 17th April

    in partnership with the Blackburn Museum & Art Gallery, the Haworth Art Gallery and Towneley Hall
  • Options
    Moses_ said:

    Oh dear.... Oh dear dear me.

    Labour now moving into mega "China Syndrome"meltdown mode. Quite staggering that it has all fallen apart over one twittered photo. They will never survive months on the hustings, they just won't.



    Sunday Telegraph

    Emily Thornberry row: MPs like Ed Miliband are out of touch, says Hazel Blears

    Career politicians like Ed Miliband are out of touch with voters because they lack experience outside Westminster, Hazel Blears warns, after Emily Thornberry's resignation over her 'sneering' white van man tweet

    #SaveEd#WeLoveEd

    How did Labour get into this mess? They were led for years by a public-school-educated Oxford lawyer posh boy and no one batted an eyelid. Now Ed is getting it from all sides for being posh and aloof. Here's a thought: if Dave fell under a bus and was replaced by someone common, then the Tories would have the least posh leader of all parties - Miliband, Clegg, Farage - and would storm to power.
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    Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 · 23m 23 minutes ago
    Bar chart of all Great Britain by-election results since GE 2010 (updated for Rochester & Strood)

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/536231914646929409
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    (This may be an urban myth) when Mountbatten was asked what his views were on Partition, with hindsight he replied "Well, I really f***ed that one up, didn't I?"
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I was hoping we might get 3 or 4 polls tonight and then a couple more tomorrow. Disappointing that it's only 2 all weekend.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    edited November 2014
    Tonight's Opinium taken before Roch/Str result. Lab 33(nc) Con 30 (-4) Ukip 19(+1) LD 7 (+2)

    Snp 5 Greens 4
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    Socrates said:


    It seems like we've swapped sides on Thatcher. I think her opposition to a united Germany, while understandable given history, was completely wrongheaded. The Germans in the two different states were one people and wanted to re-united. It would be very wrong for Britain, France and America to stop that, and them trying to would have likely caused huge anger at the West from Germany, seriously damaging NATO. The reluctance of Germany to step up to the plate in the Eurocrisis some 50 years later shows the depth of their moral renewal since 1945.

    The problem was the social, economic, political and cultural consequences of Re-Unification were well predicted and documented at the time. The massive depopulation of Eastern Germany, particularly with young women heading to the West to find rich husbands, the cost of cleaning up decades of environmental damage caused by misguided Marxist economics and the cultural fact that the people of the East, without the legacy of forty plus years of capitalism, had developed different moral attitudes all caused problems.

    We will see the same if and when the Koreas re-unite but on a much larger level.

    The argument in 1989-90 was that it was somehow necessary to tether the post-Communist states of Eastern Europe to the western economic and security model (with all the problems that is now causing). Conservatives saw the emerging Eastern European countries as a bulwark against federalism (i.e: the dominant Franco-German Axis) so wanted them in the EU to dilute that (which it hasn't).

    It was the same argument used about Spain, Portugal and Greece in the 1970s and about Turkey now. Nobody either recognised or cared about the economic disparities and the problems they would cause then and it's only now that people have started to realise what the consequence of poor policy-making has been.
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    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:
    Because they aren't doing anything illegal, perhaps?

    They don't have to follow the National Curriculum and those independent schools seem to be following a Islamic orientated curriculum.

    It is a free country, but some people seem to have forgotten that.
    It won't be a free country if a generation of kids are raised to believe in crap like conservative Islam. If people want to have their kids raised in the culture of rural Pakistan, they can move there. If your kids are in this country, they need to be taught to integrate with the rest of country, and the values of British liberal democracy, which are overwhelmingly superior to those of Islamic autocracy. The rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of children being brought up to be intolerant and backwards.

    Oh, and one of the schools was funded with taxes too.
    Remind me which country created Pakistan, a supposed "homeland" for Muslims. As you sow...
    (This may be an urban myth) when Mountbatten was asked what his views were on Partition, with hindsight he replied "Well, I really f***ed that one up, didn't I?"
    To be fair he was distracted by his wife getting boned by Nehru.

    So we can really blame the disaster of partition on the Indians and the Labour government.
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    Tonight's Opinium taken before Roch/Str result. Lab 33(nc) Con 30 (-4) Ukip 19(+1) LD 7 (+2)

    Snp 5 Greens 4

    Damn that will change ELBOW....a bit :)
This discussion has been closed.