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  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Copper

    Do the statistics show the working classes leaving Labour? My sense is a large majority of the working class still vote Labour, but I would be keen to read more if you have the data

    " a large majority of the working class still vot[ing] Labour" and " the working classes leaving Labour" are two different and (initially) not mutually incompatible things.

    Though actually, no, a 'large majority' doesn't vote Labour. Yesterday's YouGov subsample for the C2DE group had:

    Lab: 38
    Con: 23
    UKIP: 22
    LD: 6
    Grn: 6

    A plurality yes, but nothing like a majority, never mind a large one.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ghost Towns aren't something we have here as a relic of a moving market anymore. We have Welfare Ghettos with three generations of worklessness as a culture instead.

    I fail to see how that's any better collectively for the residents and their offspring.



    As I said to Richard, do not confuse me with a defender of the last Labour government. Its failure to address the issues you raise was one of its greatest failings.

    The bottom line is that the 1980s left us with countless hollowed out communities that remain today - the result is heightened welfare dependence, countless broken homes and myriad other social problems. We also enjoyed one of the great tax windfalls in our history. A lot more could have been done to address infrastructure and housing. That would have provided employment and laid the foundations for new industries to emerge from the old, at a time when communities were still cohesive and a culture of worklessness had not been ingrained. But other choices were made.

    You could argue that it was welfare that left us with those countless hollowed out communities that remain today.

    If there was no welfare they would have all been forced to abandon those communities and go elsewhere - or starve, just as the stanney communities in the nineteenth century were abandoned when tin mining declined.

    Thats why there are countless wholly abandoned stannery communites in west Devon & Cornwall comprising ruined buildings and countless poverty stricken workless communities in South Wales.

    Cruel but true.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Copper

    Do the statistics show the working classes leaving Labour? My sense is a large majority of the working class still vote Labour, but I would be keen to read more if you have the data

    In England, yes:

    C2DE

    Lab 38
    Con 23
    UKIP 22

    Not Scotland I'd guess though.


  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Gaius - so legal acceptance won't increase drug use then?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Labour C2DE (Feb 2013); 51% and 54% in the two polls where they led by 15 points

    Labour C2DE (Oct 2014); 30% and 33% in the two polls where they have been on 32 nationally
  • Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm not one - but only because I've a bit of an addictive personality and alcohol is my fix as I know how to abuse it safely. Cannabis makes me incredibly paranoid and horny - a weirdly uncomfortable combination!

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

  • Good morning, everyone.
    Mr. StClare, the problem is the Lib Dems appear to be differentiating themselves from voters.

    Hits the nail on the head. Most main LD policies are out of line with voters but voters supported them as the NOTA party which opposed the incumbents. Norman Baker helping drive down the support today.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    isam said:

    Here's one of the 78% leaving the lib dens

    Lester Holloway (@brolezholloway)
    29/10/2014 00:29
    I am resigning from the @LibDems over the toleration by some members of appalling racism towards Africans.

    Context?
  • chestnut said:

    Labour C2DE (Feb 2013); 51% and 54% in the two polls where they led by 15 points

    Labour C2DE (Oct 2014); 30% and 33% in the two polls where they have been on 32 nationally

    Wow its the working class voters that have deserted them.
  • isam said:

    All of my friends took drugs growing up, none were ever prosecuted for possession, none were ever 'criminalised', many had parts of their lives ruined by panic and anxiety attacks, and resorted to alcohol to steady their nerves, which in turn led to alcohol dependency.

    Now most of those affected are in AA and wouldn't touch any drug for pleasure at any cost

    Surely the most important thing we could do regarding drugs is to constantly hammer home the point to young children that drugs increase the chances of the lifelong prison of mental illness and anxiety... Anything to stop them getting started on drugs is worthwhile

    I see the innocent happy faces of my friends young children and it scares the life out if me that I might one day see then in the paranoid edgy states I saw people get in...

    And people that have never taken drugs are now saying they should be legal...

    Old fashioned maybe, but prevention is better than cure is as true as ever

    Very many people consume drugs for recreational purposes and nothing bad ever happens to them. Drugs have varying degrees of toxicity - alchohol and cocaine are among the worst. Ecstasy is relatively benign.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    New 5% strategy for LDs? Ignoring my personal views on drugs. Is the Lib Dems latest political act of staking out their position in all voters minds as the "party for liberalising drugs", just going to drive down voter support to 5% or less, when voters learn about what the LDs really believe in? Just as Clegg drove down LD support through communicating how europhile his party was through the Farage debates? The NOTA party built support through hiding the policies that voters did not want. Communicating them was a massive mistake!

    Far more people are enthusiatic about illegal drugs than are enthusiatic about the EU.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I was under the impression that HoC dress rules insisted a man wore a tie - I find the notion that Ms Harman could wear a T-shirt very odd.

    Perhaps we should insist she wears a tie for the sake of equality?

    Incidentally, Harman should not have been permitted to wear a t-shirt to PMQs.

  • The vast majority of the people I have known have held down decent jobs and lead respectable lives. A handful have gone off the rails over misuse including one that died from an o/d at about 25 and a guy who had a heart attack at the age of 18.
    Plato said:

    I'm not one - but only because I've a bit of an addictive personality and alcohol is my fix as I know how to abuse it safely. Cannabis makes me incredibly paranoid and horny - a weirdly uncomfortable combination!

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.


  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    Sean_F said:

    Welcome back to Scout, always one of our most interesting posters.

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

    Never (and never been drunk either) - I don't want to mess with my mind: it might have its odd qualities, but it's mine, and I don't want a booze merchant or a dealer fiddling with it. Yeah, it's a limited view, but hey.

    Embarrassingly, my mum was more cool than me - nonchalantly said she'd been given marijuana as a prank at a party in the 30s and smoked it thinking it was a regular fag. The prankster leered and asked how she felt now - she said it hadn't done anything for her, sorry...



    Well I have never tried drugs and ,although have been drunk on occasion , do not like the idea as well. As you say ,its your mind and why deliberately reduce the ability of it by trying to get drunk. I like most alcohol but for the taste (is there anything better than a cool lager on a hot day or a pint of ale in a pub after an Autumn walk?) . I also hate to get drunk
    I can understand the appeal of heroin. I had a morphine injection in hospital and felt on top of the world.
    Whilst I hate to deliberately reduce the ability or injure my mind through any kind of substance I have no compulsions this way about injuring or knackering my physical body though . Many a time I have kept on running ,orienteering or biking when I know I should stop due to feeling twinges. I am forever limping on Monday after physical weekends!!
    I know the feeling well,but the legal High from endorphins and adrenaline after completing a fell race,are very addictive.
    Had morphine once after a back injury,and nitrous gas after a fall,both very enjoyable.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jim Murphy has decided to go for it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Miss Plato, I do dislike the 'we want equality, except when it helps us not to have it' line some take, but the t-shirt wearing seems well beyond the pale. If Bercow (assuming he was in the chair) did his bloody job she would've been thrown out.

    Mr. F, it may help UKIP. For me, whether it does or not is irrelevant. What matters is that impartiality guidelines in the run-up to an election are adhered to. If they can do it for UKIP, why not Labour or the Conservatives? We do not want a precedent, surely, for this sort of nonsense to be set.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    isam said:

    All of my friends took drugs growing up, none were ever prosecuted for possession, none were ever 'criminalised', many had parts of their lives ruined by panic and anxiety attacks, and resorted to alcohol to steady their nerves, which in turn led to alcohol dependency.

    Now most of those affected are in AA and wouldn't touch any drug for pleasure at any cost

    Surely the most important thing we could do regarding drugs is to constantly hammer home the point to young children that drugs increase the chances of the lifelong prison of mental illness and anxiety... Anything to stop them getting started on drugs is worthwhile

    I see the innocent happy faces of my friends young children and it scares the life out if me that I might one day see then in the paranoid edgy states I saw people get in...

    And people that have never taken drugs are now saying they should be legal...

    Old fashioned maybe, but prevention is better than cure is as true as ever

    Very many people consume drugs for recreational purposes and nothing bad ever happens to them. Drugs have varying degrees of toxicity - alchohol and cocaine are among the worst. Ecstasy is relatively benign.
    You don't say?

    Very many people end up with their lives a mess because of drugs too... But you think it's worth the risk

    If you want to make it easier for kids to get mental illness then that's your choice, I would do anything to stop them taking drugs in the first place having seen firsthand the damage they do

    As for the nonsense about criminalising people, it is a complete myth

    99% of bars and pubs in the city of London will have someone doing illegal drugs in them On a Friday night. Everyone knows including the police, who turn a blind eye.

    If all the people taking drugs were pissing in the street the police cells would be overflowing on a Friday night... But taking drugs is practically legal, so they arent
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    F1: merde, forgot about this before the Vettel bet:
    http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/9540149/sebastian-vettel-ready-to-accept-engine-fate-for-us-gp-as-penalty-for-sixth-unit-looms

    Sixth engine is likely which would mean a 10 place grid penalty. Oh well.
  • Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
    SeanF, what is happening is whilst UKIP support is increasing recently by tiny amounts, the ceiling on the maximum level it might achieve is being rapidly driven down to ever lower levels through the smearing. In a FPTP system that is fatal.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    isam said:

    isam said:

    All of my friends took drugs growing up, none were ever prosecuted for possession, none were ever 'criminalised', many had parts of their lives ruined by panic and anxiety attacks, and resorted to alcohol to steady their nerves, which in turn led to alcohol dependency.

    Now most of those affected are in AA and wouldn't touch any drug for pleasure at any cost

    Surely the most important thing we could do regarding drugs is to constantly hammer home the point to young children that drugs increase the chances of the lifelong prison of mental illness and anxiety... Anything to stop them getting started on drugs is worthwhile

    I see the innocent happy faces of my friends young children and it scares the life out if me that I might one day see then in the paranoid edgy states I saw people get in...

    And people that have never taken drugs are now saying they should be legal...

    Old fashioned maybe, but prevention is better than cure is as true as ever

    Very many people consume drugs for recreational purposes and nothing bad ever happens to them. Drugs have varying degrees of toxicity - alchohol and cocaine are among the worst. Ecstasy is relatively benign.
    You don't say?

    Very many people end up with their lives a mess because of drugs too... But you think it's worth the risk

    If you want to make it easier for kids to get mental illness then that's your choice, I would do anything to stop them taking drugs in the first place having seen firsthand the damage they do

    As for the nonsense about criminalising people, it is a complete myth

    99% of bars and pubs in the city of London will have someone doing illegal drugs in them On a Friday night. Everyone knows including the police, who turn a blind eye.

    If all the people taking drugs were pissing in the street the police cells would be overflowing on a Friday night... But taking drugs is practically legal, so they arent
    A law that is ignored is worse than a law that does not exist. It breeds contempt for the law, a willingness to pick and choose which laws to abide by and makes it impossible to regulate that which is tolerated.
  • New 5% strategy for LDs? Ignoring my personal views on drugs. Is the Lib Dems latest political act of staking out their position in all voters minds as the "party for liberalising drugs", just going to drive down voter support to 5% or less, when voters learn about what the LDs really believe in? Just as Clegg drove down LD support through communicating how europhile his party was through the Farage debates? The NOTA party built support through hiding the policies that voters did not want. Communicating them was a massive mistake!

    Far more people are enthusiatic about illegal drugs than are enthusiatic about the EU.
    It does not translate to more voters. The LDs will end up providing to the 7%/8% or so of current supporters reasons to circa 2% of them a reason to cut their support.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobC said:

    isam said:

    Here's one of the 78% leaving the lib dens

    Lester Holloway (@brolezholloway)
    29/10/2014 00:29
    I am resigning from the @LibDems over the toleration by some members of appalling racism towards Africans.

    Context?
    Over sensitivity

    http://lesterholloway.com/2014/10/28/why-its-unacceptable-to-say-africans-dont-know-what-a-toilet-is/
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Plato said:

    I was under the impression that HoC dress rules insisted a man wore a tie - I find the notion that Ms Harman could wear a T-shirt very odd.

    Perhaps we should insist she wears a tie for the sake of equality?

    Incidentally, Harman should not have been permitted to wear a t-shirt to PMQs.

    It was a childish political stunt by Harman and Ed, which she obviously enjoyed doing as she sat smirking throughout. - certainly not worthy of a PMQs imho.

    According to YouGov - 67% of men and 64% of women agreed with Cameron.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/29/david-cameron-right-not-wear-feminism-tee-shirt/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Sean_F said:

    The charm of politics is its unpredictability. Who would have forecast, in May 2010, that

    (a) Labour would be barely up on its vote share in the last election,

    (b) the Lib Dems would lose 75% of their vote

    (c) but, the Conservatives would also be down 4%

    (d) UKIP would be up 14%

    (e) the Greens would be up 5%

    (f) the SNP would lead Labour in Scotland?

    That would have been thought the stuff of fantasy.

    Quite. It does beg the question as to where we'll be in 2020. I'm not sure I can even begin to predict that. Except I'm pretty sure Cameron won't be fighting it.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
    SeanF, what is happening is whilst UKIP support is increasing recently by tiny amounts, the ceiling on the maximum level it might achieve is being rapidly driven down to ever lower levels through the smearing. In a FPTP system that is fatal.
    So how are the other parties ceilings looking? On the up?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2014

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
    SeanF, what is happening is whilst UKIP support is increasing recently by tiny amounts, the ceiling on the maximum level it might achieve is being rapidly driven down to ever lower levels through the smearing. In a FPTP system that is fatal.
    People are capable of judging if media coverage is fair or not.

    After the EU Parliament campaign in May 2014 YouGov ran a poll.

    47% agreed media coverage of UKIP was biased against them.

    54% agreed there is a political class, clubbing together, using their mates in the media and doing anything they can to stop UKIP.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/05/20/voters-think-media-more-biased-against-UKIP/
  • ISamuel

    by your logic we would also ban dangerous sports such as rock fishing and mountaineering because some come to harm while doing them. Education is a better tool than prohibition
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited October 2014

    Plato said:

    I was under the impression that HoC dress rules insisted a man wore a tie - I find the notion that Ms Harman could wear a T-shirt very odd.

    Perhaps we should insist she wears a tie for the sake of equality?

    Incidentally, Harman should not have been permitted to wear a t-shirt to PMQs.

    It was a childish political stunt by Harman and Ed, which she obviously enjoyed doing as she sat smirking throughout. - certainly not worthy of a PMQs imho.

    According to YouGov - 67% of men and 64% of women agreed with Cameron.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/29/david-cameron-right-not-wear-feminism-tee-shirt/
    Its also quite arrogant for Harman to think that the age long dress rules should not apply to HER. If everyone is required to dress formally you can of course argue against that but you should comply with the rule until a consensus is reached to change it . Anything else is bad manners and shows no class
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    isam said:

    RobC said:

    isam said:

    Here's one of the 78% leaving the lib dens

    Lester Holloway (@brolezholloway)
    29/10/2014 00:29
    I am resigning from the @LibDems over the toleration by some members of appalling racism towards Africans.

    Context?
    Over sensitivity

    http://lesterholloway.com/2014/10/28/why-its-unacceptable-to-say-africans-dont-know-what-a-toilet-is/
    He sounds like a complete idiot:

    Lester Holloway 27th Oct '14 - 2:56pm
    Can I just add that British intervention went long way to undermining the Zimbabwean Movement for Democratic Change, having exactly the opposite effect to that which was presumably intended. Financial backing and UK media hero worship of a then opposition leader, who was outwitted time and again by the president, became a running joke. Now the MDC is split in two and back in opposition. Which just serves to underline the importance of Britain actually knowing what its’ doing when intervening in Africa. One factor that was long ignored in Britain, but recognised by SADC, was the role of Zanu-PF and Mugabe in the liberation struggle, and similarly Ian Khama’s father also played a part in Botswana’s independence. Good Western liberal intentions aren’t always appropriate, as the history of Missionaries shows. Far better to study the historic democratic systems of governance before Europeans arrived. That shows several good examples of grassroots delegated power and ruling by consent.

    And judging by that paragraph is an apologist for the brutal dictator Robert Mugabe.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2014
    About a year ago, my GP changed my painkillers and the effect was hilarious - I felt invincible and euphoric for about 12hrs - then it wore off. Thankfully. It was really weird but immensely entertaining.

    If morphine is like that - I can see the appeal.
    antifrank said:

    A thread about the Greens and the discussion spontaneously turns to drugs. Hmm...

    Alcohol is my drug of choice. The pleasures of morphine are my main recollections of an emergency appendicitis operation.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    BBC ticker

    "Michael Ellis, Conservative MP and member of Home Affairs select committee, says report into drugs is "naked political posturing""

    Is this a reference to SeanT's viagara?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    edited October 2014
    Ref Sean F’s comment I recall someone saying at the time (May 2010) that this wasn’t a bad election to lose, and it looks like the LD’s are proving that!

    And that’s coupled with the fact that their vote went up and their seats down!

    There are lucky generals and there are unlucky ones, and Clegg strkes me as an unlucky one.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Actually, 2010-2015: feels a bit like nothing's changed and everything's changed.

    Nothing's changed: we still have FPTP, the House of Lords 1999 settlement, a United Kingdom, we're fully in the EU, Westminster centric leadership, Devolution settlement largely unaltered (aside from Calman) and over 95% of our MPs from the main 3 political parties.

    Everything's changed: FPTP now looks untenable, the House of Lords is on borrowed time, the shape of the UK will fundamentally change, so may our relationship with the EU, we have a 5-party system, political leaders outside Westminster tying those within it in knots, and who knows where the MPs will come from next time, or who will hold the balance of power.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    AndyJS said:
    Not that many at the moment. If, however, they do manage to get candidates in place in all the other constituencies it's going to considerably complicate the picture in London - and make all those projected Labour gains a lot less certain.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Pulpstar, not sure trying to run someone off the road with a truck and kill them counts as 'outwitting' them. Reminds me of an appallingly bad piece by Jon Simpson[sp] who said something similar when Mugabe rigged the election and (ahem) won.

    It's not out-manoeuvring someone with cunning and wit when you're a dictator and rig the system.
  • Cannabis, cocaine and acid have always been the drugs of choice among people I know. I have had the odd joint, but have never done the other stuff. I have always preferred alcohol - though not the hangovers. As for damage done, two kids in my class at school ended up in prison as a result of drugs, another died. That's out of 32. I have known other acquaintances die as a result of taking drugs (one was decapitated on a tube line after deciding to walk to the next stop instead of waiting for a train) or get very serious illnesses. Yet more have ended up absolutely fine and are mostly now not taking anything because they are older and wiser, and probably realise they got away with it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    ISamuel

    by your logic we would also ban dangerous sports such as rock fishing and mountaineering because some come to harm while doing them. Education is a better tool than prohibition

    Bobajob

    The first part is complete nonsense , I'd agree education is better than prohibition, but prohibition is better than legalisation
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited October 2014

    Ref Sean F’s comment I recall someone saying at the time (May 2010) that this wasn’t a bad election to lose, and it looks like the LD’s are proving that!

    And that’s coupled with the fact that their vote went up and their seats down!

    There are lucky generals and there are unlucky ones, and Clegg strkes me as an unlucky one.

    Maybe. But it was also idiotic not to foresee the problem with the tuition fee pledge. It was pretty clear some time beforehand that they had a good chance of entering a coalition government. And it was also clear that responding to the Browne report was going to be one of the first things that the new government would have to do.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @isam
    You want alcohol banned? Or only drugs you personally disapprove of?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Glue-sniffing was the worst I've ever seen as detrimental - those brains were fried. I gather petrol-sniffing in Aus is common amongst the Aborigine ghettos and is even worse.

    I can't stand the smell of Evostik and it gives me an instant headache - how it's been used as a drug is beyond me.
    isam said:

    All of my friends took drugs growing up, none were ever prosecuted for possession, none were ever 'criminalised', many had parts of their lives ruined by panic and anxiety attacks, and resorted to alcohol to steady their nerves, which in turn led to alcohol dependency.

    Now most of those affected are in AA and wouldn't touch any drug for pleasure at any cost

    Surely the most important thing we could do regarding drugs is to constantly hammer home the point to young children that drugs increase the chances of the lifelong prison of mental illness and anxiety... Anything to stop them getting started on drugs is worthwhile

    I see the innocent happy faces of my friends young children and it scares the life out if me that I might one day see then in the paranoid edgy states I saw people get in...

    And people that have never taken drugs are now saying they should be legal...

    Old fashioned maybe, but prevention is better than cure is as true as ever

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Cannabis, cocaine and acid have always been the drugs of choice among people I know. I have had the odd joint, but have never done the other stuff. I have always preferred alcohol - though not the hangovers. As for damage done, two kids in my class at school ended up in prison as a result of drugs, another died. That's out of 32. I have known other acquaintances die as a result of taking drugs (one was decapitated on a tube line after deciding to walk to the next stop instead of waiting for a train) or get very serious illnesses. Yet more have ended up absolutely fine and are mostly now not taking anything because they are older and wiser, and probably realise they got away with it.

    Just because more are unharmed than harmed, doesn't make it ok though does it? Your story is evidence that drugs are a bad thing
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

    Never used any recreational drugs. Might have done as a teenager if someone had offered me some.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Mr. Pulpstar, not sure trying to run someone off the road with a truck and kill them counts as 'outwitting' them. Reminds me of an appallingly bad piece by Jon Simpson[sp] who said something similar when Mugabe rigged the election and (ahem) won.

    It's not out-manoeuvring someone with cunning and wit when you're a dictator and rig the system.

    It's hard to overthrow a government that is willing to use unlimited violence against its opponents, and doesn't care what harm it does to the country, so long as it stays in power.

    Dictatorships usually fall when the dictator, or ruling clique, decide that retiring with the fruits of office is preferable to killing their countrymen.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Jim Murphy has got the backing of the Spectator-Andrew Neil and associates.I wonder how this important right wing backing will play in Scotland with Labour under the accusation of being red Tories and London based.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9355852/scotland-needs-jim-murphy-even-if-he-doesnt-want-to-go-back-there/


  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    ISamuel

    by your logic we would also ban dangerous sports such as rock fishing and mountaineering because some come to harm while doing them. Education is a better tool than prohibition

    Bobajob

    The first part is complete nonsense , I'd agree education is better than prohibition, but prohibition is better than legalisation
    Prohibition certainly isn't better than legalisation. It does nothing to restrict supply, means there are dealers who are incentivised to push harsher drugs on soft drug uses, provides the start up capital for gangs to get into worse activities, and provides an apparently more attractive lifestyle for kids on sink estate than going to legal work. It's a miserable, failed policy.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Harman did a superb job of conveying immaturity in her T shirt.

    A student politician who has never grown up.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Smarmeron said:

    @isam
    You want alcohol banned? Or only drugs you personally disapprove of?

    If it wasn't already legal there'd be a good argument for not legalising it

    Why throw fuel on the fire by legalising other things that are as bad if not worse? Alcohol is legal, widely used. ruins peoples lives, we have untold warnings telling people they should cut down, centres for people that can't cope with life without it, and it is often what leads to drug abuse... Many people I know only took drugs when they were drunk

    So why legalise other drugs? More of the same?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4

    I'm sure it will be a scrupulously fair representation of UKIP's goals.
    I just look forward to Channel 4's mockumentary on what will happen to energy supply in this country when Ed Miliband tries to cap prices, ramp up renewable requirements and limits government spending at the same time.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    RobC said:

    isam said:

    Here's one of the 78% leaving the lib dens

    Lester Holloway (@brolezholloway)
    29/10/2014 00:29
    I am resigning from the @LibDems over the toleration by some members of appalling racism towards Africans.

    Context?
    Over sensitivity

    http://lesterholloway.com/2014/10/28/why-its-unacceptable-to-say-africans-dont-know-what-a-toilet-is/
    He sounds like a complete idiot:

    Lester Holloway 27th Oct '14 - 2:56pm
    Can I just add that British intervention went long way to undermining the Zimbabwean Movement for Democratic Change, having exactly the opposite effect to that which was presumably intended. Financial backing and UK media hero worship of a then opposition leader, who was outwitted time and again by the president, became a running joke. Now the MDC is split in two and back in opposition. Which just serves to underline the importance of Britain actually knowing what its’ doing when intervening in Africa. One factor that was long ignored in Britain, but recognised by SADC, was the role of Zanu-PF and Mugabe in the liberation struggle, and similarly Ian Khama’s father also played a part in Botswana’s independence. Good Western liberal intentions aren’t always appropriate, as the history of Missionaries shows. Far better to study the historic democratic systems of governance before Europeans arrived. That shows several good examples of grassroots delegated power and ruling by consent.

    And judging by that paragraph is an apologist for the brutal dictator Robert Mugabe.
    There are some people that any party is better off without. He's one of them.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:
    That's really interesting - thanks. It's also a salutary warning for those who might be tempted to bet on Green longshots in London to do their research. No candidate has yet been selected for the Greens in Lewisham Deptford and the party leader is standing in Holborn & St Pancras. Yet both are 25/1 shots.

    Note Natalie Bennett's own comment about her chances in Holborn & St Pancras. She's hardly talking them up:

    "With a majority of the 28% Lib Dem vote from 2010 looking for a new home, and Frank Dobson loyalists sizing up a new Labour candidate, we’ve an opportunity to build towards being serious contenders in Holborn and St Pancras.”
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    SouthamObserver - 10% for drugs + 7.6% for alchohol - 100% for damage for the families who are burdened with them.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I've known loads who've been long term users/abusers [mainly alcohol/cocaine/cannabis] and never become disfunctional addicts. They were the stereotypical high-achiever mostly too.

    Cocaine did nothing for me the once I tried it. I've oodles of internal buzz of my own, so I guess it didn't make any additional impact. Or it was cut with so much filler that it was useless.

    I reckon I'd have tried laudanum 100yrs ago.

    The vast majority of the people I have known have held down decent jobs and lead respectable lives. A handful have gone off the rails over misuse including one that died from an o/d at about 25 and a guy who had a heart attack at the age of 18.

    Plato said:

    I'm not one - but only because I've a bit of an addictive personality and alcohol is my fix as I know how to abuse it safely. Cannabis makes me incredibly paranoid and horny - a weirdly uncomfortable combination!

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.


  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    ISamuel

    by your logic we would also ban dangerous sports such as rock fishing and mountaineering because some come to harm while doing them. Education is a better tool than prohibition

    Bobajob

    The first part is complete nonsense , I'd agree education is better than prohibition, but prohibition is better than legalisation
    Prohibition certainly isn't better than legalisation. It does nothing to restrict supply, means there are dealers who are incentivised to push harsher drugs on soft drug uses, provides the start up capital for gangs to get into worse activities, and provides an apparently more attractive lifestyle for kids on sink estate than going to legal work. It's a miserable, failed policy.
    I have to ask, as it seems that the PB view in drug usage is read from a government pamphlet, has anyone any real life experience of the issue... I have and I don't recognise any of what you are saying

    Drugs are legal in all but name anyway, passing a law will make no positive difference
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
    SeanF, what is happening is whilst UKIP support is increasing recently by tiny amounts, the ceiling on the maximum level it might achieve is being rapidly driven down to ever lower levels through the smearing. In a FPTP system that is fatal.
    It's more important to get people to vote for you than to worry if they'll vote against you.

    UKIP's ceiling is the 34% who'd seriously consider voting for them. That takes you a long way, in an era of multi-party politics.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A friend of mine was a member of Soho House, and invited me up. I noticed a sign in the Ladies that said something like Please Don't Use Toilet Seats For Taking Drugs.

    It did make me laugh. It contrasted so heavily with the pub I frequented as a teen in Newcastle where a sign in the Ladies told patrons to ask behind the bar for soap and bog roll.
    isam said:

    isam said:

    All of my friends took drugs growing up, none were ever prosecuted for possession, none were ever 'criminalised', many had parts of their lives ruined by panic and anxiety attacks, and resorted to alcohol to steady their nerves, which in turn led to alcohol dependency.

    Now most of those affected are in AA and wouldn't touch any drug for pleasure at any cost

    Surely the most important thing we could do regarding drugs is to constantly hammer home the point to young children that drugs increase the chances of the lifelong prison of mental illness and anxiety... Anything to stop them getting started on drugs is worthwhile

    I see the innocent happy faces of my friends young children and it scares the life out if me that I might one day see then in the paranoid edgy states I saw people get in...

    And people that have never taken drugs are now saying they should be legal...

    Old fashioned maybe, but prevention is better than cure is as true as ever

    Very many people consume drugs for recreational purposes and nothing bad ever happens to them. Drugs have varying degrees of toxicity - alchohol and cocaine are among the worst. Ecstasy is relatively benign.
    You don't say?

    Very many people end up with their lives a mess because of drugs too... But you think it's worth the risk

    If you want to make it easier for kids to get mental illness then that's your choice, I would do anything to stop them taking drugs in the first place having seen firsthand the damage they do

    As for the nonsense about criminalising people, it is a complete myth

    99% of bars and pubs in the city of London will have someone doing illegal drugs in them On a Friday night. Everyone knows including the police, who turn a blind eye.

    If all the people taking drugs were pissing in the street the police cells would be overflowing on a Friday night... But taking drugs is practically legal, so they arent
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @isam
    If the drug in question is less harmful than drink, what then?
    Tobacco and alcohol, are dangerous and addictive, but they are legal, other drugs get you a criminal record, but probably do less harm.
    No wonder kids don't listen when someone starts spouting off to them about the dangers.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4

    I'm sure it will be a scrupulously fair representation of UKIP's goals.
    I just look forward to Channel 4's mockumentary on what will happen to energy supply in this country when Ed Miliband tries to cap prices, ramp up renewable requirements and limits government spending at the same time.
    Not exactly good material for a comedy?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Jim Murphy has got the backing of the Spectator-Andrew Neil and associates.I wonder how this important right wing backing will play in Scotland with Labour under the accusation of being red Tories and London based.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9355852/scotland-needs-jim-murphy-even-if-he-doesnt-want-to-go-back-there/


    Is this a bit like getting the Socialist Worker vote of confidence for a UKIP candidate ?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

    Never used any recreational drugs. Might have done as a teenager if someone had offered me some.
    Ditto - However, I’m always fascinated by these druggy discussions that crop up on PB from time to time, but rarely contribute as I have no personal or social anecdotal stories to add.

    Unadventurous maybe, but no regrets either - Indulging, especially with the harder drugs has always struck me as a game of Russian roulette, some live to tell the tale, some don’t.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited October 2014
    The Court of Appeal (Lord Dyson MR, Lloyd Jones & Sharp LJJ) has today allowed the claimants' appeal in Belhaj v Straw MP ([2014] EWCA Civ 1394) against the order of Simon J striking out the claim as barred by the act of state doctrine. The respondents will be seeking leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, but if the action goes to trial as now looks probable, the potential for damage to the British Government and the last Labour administration in particular is immense. The claimants have no intention of settling, and will accept nominal damages for an admission of liability. If more evidence was needed of the folly doing deals in deserts...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Nashe, disagree. Lots of potential for Rowan Atkinson as Miliband, crying at the failure for a treaty in Denmark (montage of Miliband looking mournfully at an off-shore wind farm whilst a sad song plays), Pete Postlethwaite persuading Red Ed that it's better if the lights go out than if we burn coal. The lights then going out at an inopportune moment. The Independent article on rare snow juxtaposed with two epic winters. And, last but most certainly not least, a reference to Ammianus Marcellinus writing in the 4th century AD of the stupidity of fixing commodity prices.
  • isam said:

    Cannabis, cocaine and acid have always been the drugs of choice among people I know. I have had the odd joint, but have never done the other stuff. I have always preferred alcohol - though not the hangovers. As for damage done, two kids in my class at school ended up in prison as a result of drugs, another died. That's out of 32. I have known other acquaintances die as a result of taking drugs (one was decapitated on a tube line after deciding to walk to the next stop instead of waiting for a train) or get very serious illnesses. Yet more have ended up absolutely fine and are mostly now not taking anything because they are older and wiser, and probably realise they got away with it.

    Just because more are unharmed than harmed, doesn't make it ok though does it? Your story is evidence that drugs are a bad thing

    Yes, that was my point. Like most of us on here probably I have also known a fair few alcoholics, at least two of whom have been killed by drink and many more of whom have made their own and other lives an absolute misery. I would hate my kids to get involved in drugs, but I don't have a problem with them drinking. It's all very complicated.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Mr Dancer, I very much doubt that Pete Postlethwaite is available for new dramatic productions.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Smarmeron said:

    @isam
    If the drug in question is less harmful than drink, what then?
    Tobacco and alcohol, are dangerous and addictive, but they are legal, other drugs get you a criminal record, but probably do less harm.
    No wonder kids don't listen when someone starts spouting off to them about the dangers.

    I'd have more time for your argument if you were trying to ban tobacco and alcohol rather than legalise other things that are bad for you
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Antifrank, well, quite.

    But that doesn't mean he can't be played by an actor. I'm also not suggesting Ed Miliband play himself.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Mr. Nashe, disagree. Lots of potential for Rowan Atkinson as Miliband, crying at the failure for a treaty in Denmark (montage of Miliband looking mournfully at an off-shore wind farm whilst a sad song plays), Pete Postlethwaite persuading Red Ed that it's better if the lights go out than if we burn coal. The lights then going out at an inopportune moment. The Independent article on rare snow juxtaposed with two epic winters. And, last but most certainly not least, a reference to Ammianus Marcellinus writing in the 4th century AD of the stupidity of fixing commodity prices.

    I was commenting on the way it was pitched by Socrates. They'd also do well to secure Pete Postlethwaite, as I seem to remember reading his obituary last year.
  • isam said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    ISamuel

    by your logic we would also ban dangerous sports such as rock fishing and mountaineering because some come to harm while doing them. Education is a better tool than prohibition

    Bobajob

    The first part is complete nonsense , I'd agree education is better than prohibition, but prohibition is better than legalisation
    Prohibition certainly isn't better than legalisation. It does nothing to restrict supply, means there are dealers who are incentivised to push harsher drugs on soft drug uses, provides the start up capital for gangs to get into worse activities, and provides an apparently more attractive lifestyle for kids on sink estate than going to legal work. It's a miserable, failed policy.
    I have to ask, as it seems that the PB view in drug usage is read from a government pamphlet, has anyone any real life experience of the issue... I have and I don't recognise any of what you are saying

    Drugs are legal in all but name anyway, passing a law will make no positive difference
    It will take the supply chain out of the hands of criminal gangs.

  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited October 2014
    Sean_F said:


    There are some people that any party is better off without. He's one of them.

    On the contrary, he seems to have much more understanding of Zimbabwe than most in the UK. Things are not as black and white as our media presents them. To quote the first democratically elected white president in Africa, Guy Scott:

    "As you are aware Zambia held its tripartite elections, I can’t stop talking about this, on the 20th, of September 2011 in which the then opposition party, the Patriotic Front, to quote the phrase I stole from His Excellency President Robert Mugabe, he gave me permission to use it this morning, and it worked, the Patriotic Front emerged victorious under the leadership of Mr Michael Chilufya Sata,"

    He then told delegates that he and President Mugabe had come a long way.

    “Maybe I could be allowed a little insertion here. We both worked out today that we were both members of the National Democratic Party, in his case 52 years ago, in my case 51 years ago. We were both members of the National Democratic Party in Southern Rhodesia."....

    https://www.zambianwatchdog.com/mugabe-happy-with-guys-scott/



    "Racism in Zimbabwe is a serious issue. I was sent to school down there and it was like being in the Hitler Youth: the theories about black inferiority and this kind of stuff.

    "It was a whites-only school; they tried to introduce an Indian and he was hounded out at the instigation of the parents of the boys. I think Mugabe is a product of having to contend with that."

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/01/zambian-vicepresident-south-africans-backward

    ‘You have this bloke presented to you as the local nutter, yet he was tremendously compos mentis. He spoke brilliantly. He was very clever. He nearly had the US ambassador crying into his tea, impressed with wonderment.’

    [on Farm seizures] ‘What has happened is very cruel and nasty and doesn’t reflect well on anybody. But it is worth trying to understand what is happening, rather than saying it’s the lunatic act of one man. It’s not.’

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/7699583/dr-scott-i-presume/
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE

    Same people who did 'Tony Blair on Trial'

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/nigel-farage-ukip-documentary-spoof-channel-4?CMP=twt_gu

    (Channel 4 to show a mockumentary about Ukip running the country in the lead up to the GE)
    Doesn't Channel 4 have an impartiality requirement?
    It works as well as the BBC "impartiality" practices. Same % for News shows but a Guardianista leftie stance in the Drama and Comedy output.
    I tend to agree with antifrank that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, for UKIP.

    Or, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
    SeanF, what is happening is whilst UKIP support is increasing recently by tiny amounts, the ceiling on the maximum level it might achieve is being rapidly driven down to ever lower levels through the smearing. In a FPTP system that is fatal.
    It's more important to get people to vote for you than to worry if they'll vote against you.

    UKIP's ceiling is the 34% who'd seriously consider voting for them. That takes you a long way, in an era of multi-party politics.
    Doesn't that assume the 34% is immutable? Is there any reason why it should be? I would suggest that the percentage of people a few years ago who would seriously consider voting UKIP was a lot lower than 34%. Times change, parties change and peoples' attitudes change so I would suggest that 34% is a snapshot in time and not a fixed feature of UK politics.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Nashe, and others who may make the Postlethwaite comment, I was not suggesting he be an actor, but a character played by another. I do know he's dead.

    I was referring to the claim he was instrumental in getting Miliband, as Energy Secretary, to enact anti-coal/gas legislation/regulation.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2014

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

    Never used any recreational drugs. Might have done as a teenager if someone had offered me some.
    Ditto - However, I’m always fascinated by these druggy discussions that crop up on PB from time to time, but rarely contribute as I have no personal or social anecdotal stories to add.

    Unadventurous maybe, but no regrets either - Indulging, especially with the harder drugs has always struck me as a game of Russian roulette, some live to tell the tale, some don’t.
    Not sure what I'd do if I ever find myself in Colorado where they've legalised cannabis. Probably still wouldn't take it because of the recent reports on the negative effects of the drug.
  • http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/10/29/can_nunn_re-create_georgias_1990s_democratic_coalition_124490.html

    Another superb breakdown of the Georgia senate race and the state's voting history from Sean Trende. His articles are far more interesting than Nate Silvers IMHO.

    Nunn is running the best campaign of 2014 against a guy who's running one of the worst. Wonder if it's enough to pull her through? She'd probably have to win outright, if it goes to a runoff I think she'd struggle.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,171
    If we legalise drugs, will it give a boost to GDP?

    Expect a surprise announcement in the Autumn* Statement

    *December isn't in Autumn
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited October 2014
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many PBers have ever used drugs?
    With the notable exception of Sean T who has been remarkably open about his past.
    I got through plenty of class a's during my raving days of 88-96.
    After that was a daily weed smoker until early last year when I finally quit.
    I must confess that I even attended a number of PB drinks do's when absolutely flying.

    Never used any recreational drugs. Might have done as a teenager if someone had offered me some.
    Ditto - However, I’m always fascinated by these druggy discussions that crop up on PB from time to time, but rarely contribute as I have no personal or social anecdotal stories to add.

    Unadventurous maybe, but no regrets either - Indulging, especially with the harder drugs has always struck me as a game of Russian roulette, some live to tell the tale, some don’t.
    Not sure what I'd do if I ever find myself in Colorado where they've legalised cannabis. Probably still wouldn't take it because of the recent reports on the negative effects of the drug.
    No need to smoke pot in Colorado, bike and/or ski would be my advice.

    http://bicyclecolorado.org/ride/colorado-bicycling-maps/
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322



    [on Farm seizures] ‘What has happened is very cruel and nasty and doesn’t reflect well on anybody. But it is worth trying to understand what is happening, rather than saying it’s the lunatic act of one man. It’s not.’

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/7699583/dr-scott-i-presume/

    Today, Zambia is Africa’s biggest producer of copper and China is one of the world’s hungriest consumers of it, and relations between the two are increasingly bitter, as local people struggle to compete against a huge influx of Chinese businesses and unskilled labour

    Those Zambians sound awfully racist. Why aren't they celebrating the cultural diversity in food and music that the Chinese immigrants have brought to their country?
  • AndyJS

    The chances of any harm coming to you from trying one spliff are statistically zero.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    When I hear someone arguing for the legalisation of drugs, I first ask myself 'are they a user/abuser, or do they stand to benefit financially from any changes to the law?'
  • ISamuel

    It was me who made the dangerous sports comment, not Bobajob. And it wasn't nonsense - perfectly reasonably analogy
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    If we legalise drugs, will it give a boost to GDP?

    Expect a surprise announcement in the Autumn* Statement

    *December isn't in Autumn

    It could add to our EU payments.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    edited October 2014

    Mr. Nashe, disagree. Lots of potential for Rowan Atkinson as Miliband, crying at the failure for a treaty in Denmark (montage of Miliband looking mournfully at an off-shore wind farm whilst a sad song plays), Pete Postlethwaite persuading Red Ed that it's better if the lights go out than if we burn coal. The lights then going out at an inopportune moment. The Independent article on rare snow juxtaposed with two epic winters. And, last but most certainly not least, a reference to Ammianus Marcellinus writing in the 4th century AD of the stupidity of fixing commodity prices.

    Who would do Dave being towed by huskies and on a bike with his car following behind, and demanding Labour go further with the Climate Change Act?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    isam said:

    Cannabis, cocaine and acid have always been the drugs of choice among people I know. I have had the odd joint, but have never done the other stuff. I have always preferred alcohol - though not the hangovers. As for damage done, two kids in my class at school ended up in prison as a result of drugs, another died. That's out of 32. I have known other acquaintances die as a result of taking drugs (one was decapitated on a tube line after deciding to walk to the next stop instead of waiting for a train) or get very serious illnesses. Yet more have ended up absolutely fine and are mostly now not taking anything because they are older and wiser, and probably realise they got away with it.

    Just because more are unharmed than harmed, doesn't make it ok though does it? Your story is evidence that drugs are a bad thing

    Yes, that was my point. Like most of us on here probably I have also known a fair few alcoholics, at least two of whom have been killed by drink and many more of whom have made their own and other lives an absolute misery. I would hate my kids to get involved in drugs, but I don't have a problem with them drinking. It's all very complicated.

    Thought so, I agree.. It is complicated and maybe it is just that drinking is more socially acceptable

    At a time when the dangers of drinking/smoking are emphasised more than ever though it does seem at odds to want to legalise things that are as bad if not worse, especially when they're not really illegal anyway and most people agree it would be better if no one took them in the first place
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I first ask myself 'are they a user/abuser, or do they stand to benefit financially from any changes to the law?'

    No. Some of us are just happy to learn the historical lesson of Prohibition. It didn't stop people drinking, and it was a complete godsend for the mafia.

    Flush with the enormous profits of the illegal drink trade, they blighted American society for decades.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    ISamuel

    It was me who made the dangerous sports comment, not Bobajob. And it wasn't nonsense - perfectly reasonably analogy

    You are bobajob and it was nonsense
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Observer, both of those would make fine additions, the focus on Miliband was because that was the suggestion made (and that it wouldn't be good for comedy).

    Similarly, Davey complaining about bills being too high whilst simultaneously being in support of the green levy and himself using a small supplier who doesn't pay it (due to size) would be good satire.

    Tons of material on this.

    I am available to write a screenplay if any execs are watching this thread.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @isam
    Just pointing out the stupidity of most of the anti drugs laws.
    Someone enjoying a few pints, or whatever is acceptable, but in all probability, mankind was using other drugs well before it's invention.
    (look up the lethal dose of alcohol, and compare it to cannabis)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Miss Plato, I do dislike the 'we want equality, except when it helps us not to have it' line some take, but the t-shirt wearing seems well beyond the pale. If Bercow (assuming he was in the chair) did his bloody job she would've been thrown out.

    Mr. F, it may help UKIP. For me, whether it does or not is irrelevant. What matters is that impartiality guidelines in the run-up to an election are adhered to. If they can do it for UKIP, why not Labour or the Conservatives? We do not want a precedent, surely, for this sort of nonsense to be set.

    Plato said:

    I was under the impression that HoC dress rules insisted a man wore a tie - I find the notion that Ms Harman could wear a T-shirt very odd.

    Perhaps we should insist she wears a tie for the sake of equality?

    Incidentally, Harman should not have been permitted to wear a t-shirt to PMQs.

    It was a childish political stunt by Harman and Ed, which she obviously enjoyed doing as she sat smirking throughout. - certainly not worthy of a PMQs imho.

    According to YouGov - 67% of men and 64% of women agreed with Cameron.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/29/david-cameron-right-not-wear-feminism-tee-shirt/
    Its also quite arrogant for Harman to think that the age long dress rules should not apply to HER. If everyone is required to dress formally you can of course argue against that but you should comply with the rule until a consensus is reached to change it . Anything else is bad manners and shows no class
    I wonder what you would have thought of the MSP (also Labour as it happens) who wore a Glasgow football club shirt to the Scottish Parliament? It was, admittedly, for charity, on her last day as a MSP. On the other hand, she was, or had been previously, deputy presiding officer.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    iSam

    I do see where you're coming from and accept your experience in these drug issues.

    But.... if prohibition is so successful, why did America repeal it when it failed with alcohol?

    Another example is that some argue that boxing is dangerous and damages lives, but it's better to have it legal and with proper safeguards rather than driven underground.

    Shouldn't the same apply to recreational drugs?

    (Just asking, unsure myself).

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,951
    Mr. Carnyx, I would've thrown her out, had I been presiding officer (assuming that's the Holyrood equivalent of Speaker).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @isam
    Just pointing out the stupidity of most of the anti drugs laws.
    Someone enjoying a few pints, or whatever is acceptable, but in all probability, mankind was using other drugs well before it's invention.
    (look up the lethal dose of alcohol, and compare it to cannabis)

    Cannabis overdose isn't a direct killer, it just causes mental illness

    Anyhow my basic point is that drugs are bad for the individual, and for society and so should be strongly discouraged. Legalisation is giving up the war on drugs (that was never fought)

    Imagine we spent the money we waste fighting wars that are nothing to do with us on educating kids on the perils of drug use... I think we would be a lot better off
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher
    When I hear someone supporting drugs laws, I ask if they drink, and if so, who gets the profits.
  • It's getting hot in here.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @isam
    Alcohol kills, and causes mental illness, but hey, you enjoy a drink and not pot, so ban grass and tell us all about civil liberties again.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It's getting hot in here.

    So take off all your clothes.
  • Alcohol - opiate of the masses :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited October 2014
    shadsy said:
    Are you offering the other side of the bet yet though ?

    Ah yes, see it there 1-7.

    A chance for @TSE of this parish to green up on his wager with Neil.
  • Isam - You are confusing me with another poster again. Why was my analogy nonsebse by the way?
This discussion has been closed.