We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
Who has said that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness?
I'd call you a Greek chorus, but you'd probably both take umbrage that I was suggesting that you were immigrants.
You think I, of all posters, would object to being included in a reference to classical Greece? I thought you were more educated than that...
I have long noted the irony that you have taken the name of someone who was almost certainly a paedophile.
Given that Socrates was happily married with three children, and, against the views of most of his society, took issue with slavery, how on Earth do you come to that conclusion?
"A woman for babies, a boy for love, and a goat for pleasure."
(I'm not actually claiming Socrates said that. IIRC, it was a bawdy drinking song in Athens at the time.)
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
Who has said that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness?
I'd call you a Greek chorus, but you'd probably both take umbrage that I was suggesting that you were immigrants.
You think I, of all posters, would object to being included in a reference to classical Greece? I thought you were more educated than that...
I have long noted the irony that you have taken the name of someone who was almost certainly a paedophile.
Given that Socrates was happily married with three children, and, against the views of most of his society, took issue with slavery, how on Earth do you come to that conclusion?
"A woman for babies, a boy for love, and a goat for pleasure."
It is open to question whether he resisted his urges. One thing that all sources seem to agree on is that he was powerfully attracted to teenage boys.
A. was much younger than Socrates, but post-pubescent (on military service). Paedophilia (directed at the pre-pubescent) is afaik invisible in classical Greek sources (not to say it didn't happen of course). I am certainly not aware of any grounds whatever for accusing Socrates of it, unless you in some way equate it with homosexuality.
What sources? (Other than self-deprecating jokes by S. himself)?
This is entirely my understanding, although I'd like to hear antifrank's sources. Military service was from age 20 upwards, I believe.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
Who has said that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness?
I'd call you a Greek chorus, but you'd probably both take umbrage that I was suggesting that you were immigrants.
You think I, of all posters, would object to being included in a reference to classical Greece? I thought you were more educated than that...
I have long noted the irony that you have taken the name of someone who was almost certainly a paedophile.
Given that Socrates was happily married with three children, and, against the views of most of his society, took issue with slavery, how on Earth do you come to that conclusion?
There are many married paedophiles with children, who they often abuse.
Quick question (Not taking these prices as I'm on at longer but...)
Why is Ed Miliband 10-11 next PM, whilst Ed Balls is 11-8 next chancellor.
I'd have thought Ed Balls next chancellor bet is by far the most value proxy for Lab most seats.
Because:
- If Labour wins, Miliband may not appoint Balls as Chancellor (small chance but not negligible). - Balls sits in a marginal seat and while you wouldn't expect it to happen against the national trend of Labour gains, it's tight enough that it's possible. - If it's a Lab-led coalition, it's far more likely that Balls would have to make way as Chancellor-designate for Labour's coalition partner (or, as above, an alternative Labour member), than Miliband would as PM-designate. - Arguably, it's more likely that Osborne will be replaced as Chancellor without Cameron resigning than vice versa.
None of which is all that likely but then when comparing 10/11 (i.e. 52.4%) with 11/8 (i.e. 42.1%) they don't have to be to justify implied combined odds of 9/1 that any of the above might happen.
I'm talking about your example of using a very busy commuter rail terminus as an example of London's overcrowding. Did it not occur to you that the very people who make this busy very often arent from London? Even much of central London is quiet and serene, away from tube stations and rail hubs. The idea that London is overcrowded is simply wrong. Get out of your car and walk around
85% of Londoners - and that's covering all of Greater London - think that the country is too crowded. Where do you think they get this impression from? The occasional trip out to Surrey?
Even if you manage to find a quieter part of London, you still need to commute to work in the morning. And I suspect you hear a lot of road noise if you sit in most London gardens. (That's if you're lucky enough to have a garden, and it hasn't been sold off to a developer.)
Revealed preference.
They desire the opportunities of London more than they hate its crowdedness.
It's a free market. If it genuinely is too crowded, then people would leave until it ceased to be too crowded.
They are leaving, in their droves. It is the reason why there is so much building going on in the home counties. Of course, the jobs aren't leaving with them so the commuting nightmare will just get worse and those leaving are being replaced with new arrivals.
Did I miss Miliband's questions on the Mediterranean immigrant issue?
Ed mentioned it in a bleeding-heart kind of way.
He lacked authenticity on immigration, and everyone knows it. Cameron is, of course, undermined by the flow of EU migration. The positive non-EU data just gets drowned out as insignificant. He hasn't delivered enough on this topic. I'd give this topic marginally to Ed today with Cameron's contract, but the winner was Farage.
I actually felt that the Tories got the better of Labour on the NHS today with the endless Welsh comparisons and the pieces from the new NHS Chief Exec.
The cost of living and jobs debate just goes back and forth.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
We're getting proof today that UKIP really are a party of the left. Their touching belief that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness would be familiar to any Marxist of the 1970s.
Who has said that Londoners who are comfortable with immigration are suffering from false consciousness?
I'd call you a Greek chorus, but you'd probably both take umbrage that I was suggesting that you were immigrants.
You think I, of all posters, would object to being included in a reference to classical Greece? I thought you were more educated than that...
I have long noted the irony that you have taken the name of someone who was almost certainly a paedophile.
Given that Socrates was happily married with three children, and, against the views of most of his society, took issue with slavery, how on Earth do you come to that conclusion?
"A woman for babies, a boy for love, and a goat for pleasure."
One version of that I came across was:
"A woman for duty, a boy for pleasure, a melon for ecstasy"
You just need to go through Victoria or London Bridge station at rush hour to realise how ridiculously overcrowded the place is: people are packed shoulder to shoulder down staircases and at entranceways.
Well, Plato seems to have been in absolutely no doubt that Socrates was attracted to teenage boys. He recounts occasions when he famously resisted temptation but is rather hazier about whether this was always the case.
So far as we can tell, he was more of an ephebophile than a paedophile. But I expect that the average abuser in Rotherham would claim the same thing, if he knew the distinction.
EDIT to be clear, Socrates the poster is not who I am referring to!
I think you can relax in your one man "the 'rich' should all pay more tax" campaign. There can be no doubt that very soon we will all, not just the 'rich' be paying more in tax and charges. The down side for you might be that very little of that money will go in overseas aid, it will all be needed here to pay for the basics.
Save us from Rightwing debt hysteria.
UK government debt is not a mountain, and it is not a bomb that is about to go off.
I'm talking about your example of using a very busy commuter rail terminus as an example of London's overcrowding. Did it not occur to you that the very people who make this busy very often arent from London? Even much of central London is quiet and serene, away from tube stations and rail hubs. The idea that London is overcrowded is simply wrong. Get out of your car and walk around
85% of Londoners - and that's covering all of Greater London - think that the country is too crowded. Where do you think they get this impression from? The occasional trip out to Surrey?
Even if you manage to find a quieter part of London, you still need to commute to work in the morning. And I suspect you hear a lot of road noise if you sit in most London gardens. (That's if you're lucky enough to have a garden, and it hasn't been sold off to a developer.)
Revealed preference.
They desire the opportunities of London more than they hate its crowdedness.
It's a free market. If it genuinely is too crowded, then people would leave until it ceased to be too crowded.
The argument is whether they would prefer a London with less immigration or a London with more immigration. Since they do not have the option of moving to the former, there is no such thing as revealed preference in this case. Their preference has been made impossible by the destructive policies of New Labour.
Even if you only look at the preference between London and non-London, your argument still doesn't work. A great many people do leave London. Even the people that replace them are maximising for their lifetime utility, not their utility while in London. Your logical errors would mean there is nowhere on Earth that is "too crowded".
Selection in Holborn and St Pancras has officially started. Deadline for applications set for Nov 10th.
NEC decided for Open shortlist in Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney.
Bradford East selection is scheduled for this Saturday. According to Urban Echo paper the longlisted candidates were
Imran Hussain (the Bradford West one) Imran Khan Mohammed Taj Mohammed Shafiq Richard Taylor Andrew Scopes Shahid Malik (the Dewsbury one)
Malik has since withdrawn because of new work commitments taking him abroad.
Neath CLP will select on Saturday. All eyes concentrated to see if Mabel McKeown can get it after Kinnock got next door seat. I believe Mabel has 9 nominations from ward branches while Christina Rees (Ron Davies' ex wife) has 11 noms and Karen Wilkie at least 5. But each branch can do 2 noms, so it depends who got the first or the second nomination.
Did I miss Miliband's questions on the Mediterranean immigrant issue?
Ed mentioned it in a bleeding-heart kind of way.
He lacked authenticity on immigration, and everyone knows it. Cameron is, of course, undermined by the flow of EU migration. The positive non-EU data just gets drowned out as insignificant. He hasn't delivered enough on this topic. I'd give this topic marginally to Ed today with Cameron's contract, but the winner was Farage.
I actually felt that the Tories got the better of Labour on the NHS today with the endless Welsh comparisons and the pieces from the new NHS Chief Exec.
The cost of living and jobs debate just goes back and forth.
A pretty drab affair, to be honest.
It was slightly surreal watching Ed lead on immigration. Because if John Bercow had said: "right, now it's time for the Prime Minister to ask the Leader of the Opposition some questions about his policies on immigration" Ed's whole approach would have collapsed like a house of cards.
Well, Plato seems to have been in absolutely no doubt that Socrates was attracted to teenage boys. He recounts occasions when he famously resisted temptation but is rather hazier about whether this was always the case.
So far as we can tell, he was more of an ephebophile than a paedophile. But I expect that the average abuser in Rotherham would claim the same thing, if he knew the distinction.
EDIT to be clear, Socrates the poster is not who I am referring to!
SECOND EDIT Ditto the poster Plato!
The children abused in Rotherham were younger than 16 by definition. That is not in the same range as ephebophilia, which refers to people in their late teens, and we consider adults. In fact, I've yet to see any evidence that Socrates the ancient was attracted to anyone younger than 18.
I think you can relax in your one man "the 'rich' should all pay more tax" campaign. There can be no doubt that very soon we will all, not just the 'rich' be paying more in tax and charges. The down side for you might be that very little of that money will go in overseas aid, it will all be needed here to pay for the basics.
Save us from Rightwing debt hysteria.
UK government debt is not a mountain, and it is not a bomb that is about to go off.
Come on then, Mr. M, how would you describe the the amount of UK debt and how it is set to get even larger?
Interest payments are currently £50bn a year, forecast to grow to £75bn a year iff HMGs deficit reduction strategy works and the cost of borrowing doesn't increase. Now map out to the next forty years or so taking into account the ageing population as the OBR has.
As far as a I know mathematics doesn't have a left wing or a right wing.
There's a nice challenge you can set for family friends/visitors when they say it's too crowded in the a West End. Tell them to take a left off Oxford St then walk 350yards. See how crowded and noisy it is. London has loads of space, tonnes of the stuff. The problem is that tourists never see it, and the likes of Socrates hang around tube stations
Incidentally, reading the thread it is very obvious that this whole Med thing is being spun as "heartless tories" for all its worth by certain posters today.
Incidentally, reading the thread it is very obvious that this whole Med thing is being spun as "heartless tories" for all its worth by certain posters today.
Can the Guardianistas give us a full list of the oceans which we are supposed to patrol looking for people being smuggled in dangerous boats, preferably in priority order?
I think you can relax in your one man "the 'rich' should all pay more tax" campaign. There can be no doubt that very soon we will all, not just the 'rich' be paying more in tax and charges. The down side for you might be that very little of that money will go in overseas aid, it will all be needed here to pay for the basics.
Save us from Rightwing debt hysteria.
UK government debt is not a mountain, and it is not a bomb that is about to go off.
Come on then, Mr. M, how would you describe the the amount of UK debt and how it is set to get even larger?
Interest payments are currently £50bn a year, forecast to grow to £75bn a year iff HMGs deficit reduction strategy works and the cost of borrowing doesn't increase. Now map out to the next forty years or so taking into account the ageing population as the OBR has.
As far as a I know mathematics doesn't have a left wing or a right wing.
Mathematics just gives you a value.
It doesn't tell you about the underlying state of the issue: why is the government borrowing? Who is lending the money? What funding alternatives are there? What is the country's economic capacity to pay off the loan? Is it even desirable to pay it off? What will happen if government allows deficit to reduce gently rather than suffer the empty and ultimately forlorn macho posturing we've had to put up with from the Right these last 5 years?
George Eaton @georgeeaton Left-leaning Neil Findlay announces he will stand for the Scottish Labour leadership.
Findlay seems to be the best option for Labour. Fulfills the need for a MSP to be leader, can attack the SNP from the left (dismissing the red Tory attacks) and he has no previous baggage.
Findlay certainly would be the best option.
If Findlay wins then we could end up with an interesting situation for Scotland 2015 and 2016, whereby 4 parties are fighting on a hard left platform (Lab, SNP, SSP, Green), 2 are on the right (Con, UKIP) and the one party who could perhaps claim the centre ground is in complete meltdown (LDs)
We could save millions of African children every year from premature death, just by sticking 3p on the income tax. 3 measly p. No ifs or buts. Do you want those children to die? Would you starve to death if your income tax went up by 3p? YES OR NO?
We do search and rescue in our own exceptionally extensive and dangerous coastal waters. It's absolutely great if other countries do it in theirs.
I can see you're a part of the "oh it's all too difficult" brigade and your solution is to exploit your own good fortune of living in a first world country by ignoring the immediate peril of thousands of your fellow human beings. Deluding yourself that somehow the complexity of it all mitigates your own moral failing.
I realise that plenty of people do not have my income and I would not expect them to pay more tax.
But presumably those that do, you would? i.e. you'd make them live by your principles, not their own?
If someone says they believe they should be taxed more, that says to me they believe they should be taxed more. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
No, thats wrong.
It says that you believe everybody and not just you should be taxed more. IOW, you think that other people should also be forced to pay more even if they dont want to.
Yes, I do believe that paying tax is a legal obligation, not something you can choose not to do.
But you arent talking about legal obligations, you were talking about moral obligations.
So therefore please state why other people are morally obliged to follow your (paying more tax) position.
Mr. Pulpstar, I wasn't suggesting other people might not pay, I was suggesting I might well end up losing the bets.
Mr. Observer, governments should try not to inflict their particular moral stances on people beyond what is strictly necessary. That's why a proposal to ban smoking in public places is disgraceful.
It rather depends on what you mean by moral. It seems pretty immoral to me to allow smokers to inflict their habit on people who may not like having it inflicted on them.
But YOU want to impose YOUR ideas about increased taxation on people who may not like having it inflicted on them.
Why does this stanch not make you a hypocrite?
Nope. I express an opinion. I don't want to impose anything. I believe in democracy.
So you are quite happy with jews being forced to wear yellow stars because the NSDAP won an election because thats democracy?
Comments
- If Labour wins, Miliband may not appoint Balls as Chancellor (small chance but not negligible).
- Balls sits in a marginal seat and while you wouldn't expect it to happen against the national trend of Labour gains, it's tight enough that it's possible.
- If it's a Lab-led coalition, it's far more likely that Balls would have to make way as Chancellor-designate for Labour's coalition partner (or, as above, an alternative Labour member), than Miliband would as PM-designate.
- Arguably, it's more likely that Osborne will be replaced as Chancellor without Cameron resigning than vice versa.
None of which is all that likely but then when comparing 10/11 (i.e. 52.4%) with 11/8 (i.e. 42.1%) they don't have to be to justify implied combined odds of 9/1 that any of the above might happen.
He lacked authenticity on immigration, and everyone knows it. Cameron is, of course, undermined by the flow of EU migration. The positive non-EU data just gets drowned out as insignificant. He hasn't delivered enough on this topic. I'd give this topic marginally to Ed today with Cameron's contract, but the winner was Farage.
I actually felt that the Tories got the better of Labour on the NHS today with the endless Welsh comparisons and the pieces from the new NHS Chief Exec.
The cost of living and jobs debate just goes back and forth.
A pretty drab affair, to be honest.
"A woman for duty, a boy for pleasure, a melon for ecstasy"
Thanks!
So far as we can tell, he was more of an ephebophile than a paedophile. But I expect that the average abuser in Rotherham would claim the same thing, if he knew the distinction.
EDIT to be clear, Socrates the poster is not who I am referring to!
SECOND EDIT Ditto the poster Plato!
UK government debt is not a mountain, and it is not a bomb that is about to go off.
Even if you only look at the preference between London and non-London, your argument still doesn't work. A great many people do leave London. Even the people that replace them are maximising for their lifetime utility, not their utility while in London. Your logical errors would mean there is nowhere on Earth that is "too crowded".
Selection in Holborn and St Pancras has officially started. Deadline for applications set for Nov 10th.
NEC decided for Open shortlist in Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney.
Bradford East selection is scheduled for this Saturday. According to Urban Echo paper the longlisted candidates were
Imran Hussain (the Bradford West one)
Imran Khan
Mohammed Taj
Mohammed Shafiq
Richard Taylor
Andrew Scopes
Shahid Malik (the Dewsbury one)
Malik has since withdrawn because of new work commitments taking him abroad.
Neath CLP will select on Saturday. All eyes concentrated to see if Mabel McKeown can get it after Kinnock got next door seat. I believe Mabel has 9 nominations from ward branches while Christina Rees (Ron Davies' ex wife) has 11 noms and Karen Wilkie at least 5. But each branch can do 2 noms, so it depends who got the first or the second nomination.
Politics, eh....
A relative who is a criminal barrister says that divorced women with children are typically targets.
Mr wonderful comes along, and turns out to be mr evil.
8,173,900 divided by 607 sq. miles = 13,466 per sq. mile
Rest of England population density (2011 census):
53,012,456 - 8,173,900 = 44,838,556
divided by (50,346-607=) 49,739 sq. miles = 901 per sq. mile
Interest payments are currently £50bn a year, forecast to grow to £75bn a year iff HMGs deficit reduction strategy works and the cost of borrowing doesn't increase. Now map out to the next forty years or so taking into account the ageing population as the OBR has.
As far as a I know mathematics doesn't have a left wing or a right wing.
There's a nice challenge you can set for family friends/visitors when they say it's too crowded in the a West End. Tell them to take a left off Oxford St then walk 350yards. See how crowded and noisy it is. London has loads of space, tonnes of the stuff. The problem is that tourists never see it, and the likes of Socrates hang around tube stations
Fits in with today's discussions.
Incidentally, reading the thread it is very obvious that this whole Med thing is being spun as "heartless tories" for all its worth by certain posters today.
It doesn't tell you about the underlying state of the issue: why is the government borrowing? Who is lending the money? What funding alternatives are there? What is the country's economic capacity to pay off the loan? Is it even desirable to pay it off? What will happen if government allows deficit to reduce gently rather than suffer the empty and ultimately forlorn macho posturing we've had to put up with from the Right these last 5 years?
So therefore please state why other people are morally obliged to follow your (paying more tax) position.