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  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:

    Anne Soubry is a nasty piece of work. Her abuse to Farage made it clear. Can you imagine if a male politician had described Anne Soubry as someone that looked like they enjoyed a self-sex act? It would have been career ending for him.
    She was sitting next to Peter Mandelson when she said it.
    It's a good point that @Socrates makes there. If a male politician said the same about a woman they would probably have to resign.

    Ah good old equality
  • Interesting numbers, but don't forget that in the Ashcroft poll, Lab VI (second stage) in CON-LIB marginals was about 13%, so 36% of them would be about 4.7% of all votes in those seats. That's a fair old chunk, but not totally unprecedented: http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/tactical.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Does anybody fancy a bet?

    I get UKIP 15-20%, you get UKIP 5-10%

    EVEN money. Bets void if 0-4.9, 10.1-14.9, 20.1+

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-uk-general-election/ukip-vote-percentage
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:



    There's another problem: UKIP are seen by many parts of the electorate as being beyond the pail. Any such centrally-organised electoral pact may well hurt the Conservatives in other constituencies as it will align the parties closer together.

    As I've said passim, if the Conservatives move towards UKIP, then they may gain some UKIP voters, but they will lose some from the centre.

    Better for them to fight UKIP and give the electorate a choice.

    The Conservatives have a toxicity problem of their very own, so there are similar sentiments on UKIP's side. UKIP might pick up Conservative votes from an electoral pact, but they would also lose some from former Labour voters and from the previously disillusioned.
    Not really. UKIP are seen as a split-party from the Conservatives, so I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at such a move (which I think UKIP did in a few seats at GE 2010? - someone can correct me).

    Give the voters a choice.
    While Conservatives might like to think UKIP are a splinter group that should get in line, that's very much not the case in run-down northern towns. UKIP actually listens to these voters and accommodate their concerns. The Tories thinks the more disadvantaged parts of the country are places "trying not to die, filled with friendly people trying not to die".
    So UKIP is listening to voters is run-down northern towns, and also listening to ex-Conservative voters in the Home Counties?

    That's quite a broad church to satisfy ...
    (Trying to make a non party point here)

    Isn't that balance (your example between run-down northern towns, and ex-Conservative voters in the Home Counties being just one strand) exactly what all parties should be trying to do. The alternative seems to be to say get stuffed to one or another sections of society.

    It does rather seem to be a measure of the paucity of real skilled politicians these days that we are even commenting on the fact that such a balance is necessary.

    Edit - and I do of course include most UKIP politicians in that description as well as excluding an honorable few in all parties.
    BINGO! All this -'can't please the workers and the retired colonel tendency' -how about just governing well on behalf of the country?
  • Something else I spotted in today’s YouGov tables – for each party it showed who would consider voting for them, broken down by their current voting intention.

    For the Greens (who were on 5% VI) it showed a huge pool of potential voters – 33% of Lib Dems and 22% of Labour voters would at least consider going Green, and even 6% of Tories and 5% of UKIPpers. That makes 19% of all voters, practically quadruple their current polling.

    Because Labour have a much higher vote share than the Lib Dems, the ‘red greens’ are by far the largest chunk of all voters (about 7.5%) with the Lib Dem considerers worth about 3%, ‘blue greens’ 2% and ‘purple greens’ accounting for about 1% of the entire poll.

    I also had a look back at the last green surge (in short, their polling is a lot more stable this time). In 1989, the Greens polled 2.3 million votes (14.5%) in the UK’s European parliament elections (which at the time were held under FPTP, meaning no seats). In the following weeks, the Greens hit an all-time high of 13% Westminster voting intention in a phone poll by Audience Selection. Other pollsters had them lower, but most had them in the upper single digits and NOP had them in double digits, as late as September 1989. But over the next two years the poll ratings tailed off all the way to ‘asterisk’ territory, and just 0.5% at the 1992 election.

    Here’s a chart, my source for the oldschool polling is Mark Pack’s awesome database…

    http://numbercruncheruk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/more-than-just-green-chutes-once-in.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tomorrow Night BBC1 8.30pm
    "The Farage Factor"
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Clacton Kippers = Alf Garnett. Not the segment of the WWC who have traditionally voted Labour.

    So how come the Labour vote in Clacton went down from 10,799 in 2010 to 3,957 in the recent by election despite the liberal vote falling from 5,577 to 483?

    Eds 35 % by attracting pi**ed off liberals worked really well there didn't it. With the tories still polling nearly 9,000 votes nearly half of Carswells support came from people who voted Labour or Libdem in 2010. (nb turnouts 64% 2010 /51% last week)

    Keep the insults coming in, it will work as well as it did in the Euro elections.

    Differential abstention rate. "A plague on all your houses!" But they'll turn out again at the GE. That's not forecasting how they'll vote then, of course.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    SeanT said:

    "What has Yvette Cooper ever done to suggest she'd be a good leader of the Labour party?"

    Regularly post on pb?

    If Yvette Cooper became leader of the oppo, and then PM, she'd be the first alumnus of this site to make it to the top job.

    So that's where Tim went.

    In other news my street in a safe Labour seat in the North East got leaflets from UKIP hand delivered today. How keen isthat
  • SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    "Judged by PPP". Is that Purchasing Power Parity?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    Freggles said:

    SeanT said:

    "What has Yvette Cooper ever done to suggest she'd be a good leader of the Labour party?"

    Regularly post on pb?

    If Yvette Cooper became leader of the oppo, and then PM, she'd be the first alumnus of this site to make it to the top job.

    So that's where Tim went.

    In other news my street in a safe Labour seat in the North East got leaflets from UKIP hand delivered today. How keen isthat
    UKIP could well get a lot of second places across the North East next May. Just like the LDs replaced the Tories as the main not Labour option in many seats in the past, the Kippers could do the same, and then hope for seats in 2020. At least we won't have to wait long after the polls close to see if this happens - in the 2 Sunlun seats.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

  • Had a couple of bets on the NFL, and following on nfl.com which must be the best live sports website in the world
  • Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    Do it Ed, please.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    I'd argue that Ed doing anything like that at this stage of his leadership/career would look fake. Partly because if he believed it he would already be doing it but mostly because he looks fake doing anything "real".
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Define fairly soon.
  • Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    He could hug a hoodie.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Resign
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,121

    Something else I spotted in today’s YouGov tables – for each party it showed who would consider voting for them, broken down by their current voting intention.

    For the Greens (who were on 5% VI) it showed a huge pool of potential voters – 33% of Lib Dems and 22% of Labour voters would at least consider going Green, and even 6% of Tories and 5% of UKIPpers. That makes 19% of all voters, practically quadruple their current polling.

    Because Labour have a much higher vote share than the Lib Dems, the ‘red greens’ are by far the largest chunk of all voters (about 7.5%) with the Lib Dem considerers worth about 3%, ‘blue greens’ 2% and ‘purple greens’ accounting for about 1% of the entire poll.

    I also had a look back at the last green surge (in short, their polling is a lot more stable this time). In 1989, the Greens polled 2.3 million votes (14.5%) in the UK’s European parliament elections (which at the time were held under FPTP, meaning no seats). In the following weeks, the Greens hit an all-time high of 13% Westminster voting intention in a phone poll by Audience Selection. Other pollsters had them lower, but most had them in the upper single digits and NOP had them in double digits, as late as September 1989. But over the next two years the poll ratings tailed off all the way to ‘asterisk’ territory, and just 0.5% at the 1992 election.

    Here’s a chart, my source for the oldschool polling is Mark Pack’s awesome database…

    http://numbercruncheruk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/more-than-just-green-chutes-once-in.html

    Ah, I remember it well. Eddy Shah's newspaper, Today, came out for the Greens. Our local MEP candidate got around 18% of the vote.

    All gone in a puff of green smoke within months.

    Makes me think that maybe UKIP are going through a similar moment - have they peaked too early for GE 2015?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    I have seen worse ideas. At the moment Ed gives the impression he does not believe in anything.

    Was the old saying not that if the Labour Party is not a crusade then it is nothing?
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Politics is certainly interesting at the minute. With the SNP post indyref hitting +80k members, and now UKIP with its 1st elected MP, things must be a bit fraught at Lab/Con hq.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    Do it Ed, please.
    Agreed. Ed Miliband should definitely go to Calais and say that these people are the suffering ones and should just be let in to Britain. That's certainly the right political strategy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Define fairly soon.
    For the record, I was bearish on China at the start of this year... Became more bullish in May, and am becoming slightly more bearish again.

    I am not saying China will collapse, only that it faces two difficult challenges: 1. It's working age population is about to go into decline, and that makes rapid growth harder, 2. Fixed asset investment (paid for through individual savings channeled through a shadow banking sector) dominates the economy.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited October 2014
    Wilson. "The Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing".

    Under Miliband The Labour Party is an amoral crusade for votes.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    "Judged by PPP". Is that Purchasing Power Parity?
    Yeah-huh
    But that's not per capita!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    Reading that nonsense I suggest you think some more
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Socrates said:

    Anne Soubry is a nasty piece of work. Her abuse to Farage made it clear. Can you imagine if a male politician had described Anne Soubry as someone that looked like they enjoyed a self-sex act? It would have been career ending for him.
    She was sitting next to Peter Mandelson when she said it.
    It's a good point that @Socrates makes there. If a male politician said the same about a woman they would probably have to resign.

    Ah good old equality
    It's like Diane Abbott is allowed to get away with saying "white people love playing divide and rule". I'm doubt there's any sentence that starts with "black people love" followed by a negative that a white politician could say without being forced to resign. It's like the crap some left-wingers said about Carswell just being a white, male middle class politician. What's wrong with being white, male or middle class?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited October 2014
    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    How is that taking on ukip head on? Are they against beaten up women?

    Ed is no longer autonomous. If you heard Danczuk on Wato on Friday and read his piece in the Mail yesterday and ed in the observer today you will see that ed is now dancing to the tune of labour MPs who get it about immigration.

    And please drop all this flannel about compassion. You are content to live in the most racist country in western Europe because it's cheap and the weather is nice and what happens to the poor old Algerians is no skin off your nose. It is easy to picture you in 1960s Cape Town.



  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Something else I spotted in today’s YouGov tables – for each party it showed who would consider voting for them, broken down by their current voting intention.

    For the Greens (who were on 5% VI) it showed a huge pool of potential voters – 33% of Lib Dems and 22% of Labour voters would at least consider going Green, and even 6% of Tories and 5% of UKIPpers. That makes 19% of all voters, practically quadruple their current polling.

    Because Labour have a much higher vote share than the Lib Dems, the ‘red greens’ are by far the largest chunk of all voters (about 7.5%) with the Lib Dem considerers worth about 3%, ‘blue greens’ 2% and ‘purple greens’ accounting for about 1% of the entire poll.

    I also had a look back at the last green surge (in short, their polling is a lot more stable this time). In 1989, the Greens polled 2.3 million votes (14.5%) in the UK’s European parliament elections (which at the time were held under FPTP, meaning no seats). In the following weeks, the Greens hit an all-time high of 13% Westminster voting intention in a phone poll by Audience Selection. Other pollsters had them lower, but most had them in the upper single digits and NOP had them in double digits, as late as September 1989. But over the next two years the poll ratings tailed off all the way to ‘asterisk’ territory, and just 0.5% at the 1992 election.

    Here’s a chart, my source for the oldschool polling is Mark Pack’s awesome database…

    http://numbercruncheruk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/more-than-just-green-chutes-once-in.html

    Ah, I remember it well. Eddy Shah's newspaper, Today, came out for the Greens. Our local MEP candidate got around 18% of the vote.

    All gone in a puff of green smoke within months.

    Makes me think that maybe UKIP are going through a similar moment - have they peaked too early for GE 2015?
    The 'Ukip have peaked too early' tokens have been spent more times than the bankers bonus tax
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    dr_spyn said:

    Wilson. "The Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing".

    Under Miliband The Labour Party is an amoral crusade for votes.

    That was it and I agree with you. Labour should be at the food banks, with the disabled, with the asylum seekers and the others our country neglects to its shame. Otherwise what is the point?

    The harder bit is being honest and admitting that helping those in need properly needs us all to pay more tax. The lib Dems were brave enough to hint at this and that is as close as any of our political parties got.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SeanT said:

    "What has Yvette Cooper ever done to suggest she'd be a good leader of the Labour party?"

    Regularly post on pb?

    If Yvette Cooper became leader of the oppo, and then PM, she'd be the first alumnus of this site to make it to the top job.

    Is that right? It is said that David Cameron was a lurker. Does that count, even if he never posted (assuming he did never post)?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,034
    Roger,
    Maybe Ed could have a press conference and say something like "we're never going to listen to concerns about immigration, and if you don't like that, we don't want your vote"

    That'd help him look decisive.
  • Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.


    He'd have to be careful though in case a couple of illegals try to stow away in his nose.....
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Define fairly soon.
    For the record, I was bearish on China at the start of this year... Became more bullish in May, and am becoming slightly more bearish again.

    I am not saying China will collapse, only that it faces two difficult challenges: 1. It's working age population is about to go into decline, and that makes rapid growth harder, 2. Fixed asset investment (paid for through individual savings channeled through a shadow banking sector) dominates the economy.
    What about rural and less developed China? There might be a vast reservoir of potential workers outside the cities.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Define fairly soon.
    For the record, I was bearish on China at the start of this year... Became more bullish in May, and am becoming slightly more bearish again.

    I am not saying China will collapse, only that it faces two difficult challenges: 1. It's working age population is about to go into decline, and that makes rapid growth harder, 2. Fixed asset investment (paid for through individual savings channeled through a shadow banking sector) dominates the economy.
    What about rural and less developed China? There might be a vast reservoir of potential workers outside the cities.
    The bulk of urbaisation is now behind us: yes there is 30-40% or so of the people who still live in the countryside, and yes, that will move to 10-20% over time, but the quantum of the change is in decline.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    Of course, it is worth remembering that the Shanghai stock exchange has been a pretty rubbish performer over the last seven years - on a total return basis (i.e. including dividends), it lags Germany, the UK and the US - although the good news is that it's beaten Spain!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.


    He'd have to be careful though in case a couple of illegals try to stow away in his nose.....
    Has Ed got a particularly big nose? And is there any reason that this might be remarkeable?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    It's a bit hard to invest directly in China. But should one have invested in her(his?) "feeder" economies over the last ten years or so one could have averaged about eight percent per year, no problem.
  • Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    You see you are already out of date, not just in your thinking but in your facts.

    According to at least one poll it is now only a maximum of 3 opponents to every UKIP supporter. And that is assuming that every single person who doesn't vote UKIP wouldn't give them the time of day either.

    But you just carry on believing your myths. After all, it must be incredibly difficult to judge these things from the South of France.
  • SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
    What do you think the Lib Dem position on tuition fees will be in their forthcoming manifesto?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited October 2014

    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.


    He'd have to be careful though in case a couple of illegals try to stow away in his nose.....
    Has Ed got a particularly big nose? And is there any reason that this might be remarkeable?
    My Mum always asks "what ever has he done to his nose?" whenever he comes on the news :)
  • SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    When will China overtake the USA on a GDP per capita basis?
  • Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.


    He'd have to be careful though in case a couple of illegals try to stow away in his nose.....
    Has Ed got a particularly big nose? And is there any reason that this might be remarkeable?
    My Mum always asks "what ever has he done to his nose?" whenever he comes on the news :)
    It's a mystery. Possibly a botched ENT procedure.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2089222/Ed-Miliband-boxer-Labour-leader-fresh-scrutiny-bizarre-sunken-nose.html
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
    So the choices at the GE are:

    Pig in a poke - UKIP
    Pig in lipstick - Labour
    Pigs may fly - Libdems
    Pigs - Tories

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
    So the choices at the GE are:

    Pig in a poke - UKIP
    Pig in lipstick - Labour
    Pigs may fly - Libdems
    Pigs - Tories

    Very droll. I expect that Respect will not want to compete in the porcine stakes.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    The Tories are being played with by Farage,like tickling a trout.Dave might have to go as a final big bang strategy for the Tories.They offered trinkets to the natives in the form of tax cuts and it seems even shaking the magic money tree cannot help them.What ammunition have the Tories got left?Are the Tories in the Downfall bunker?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11157230/Farage-July-2015-referendum-is-my-price-for-propping-up-Tories.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ed could give out loaves and fishes too!

    Roger said:

    I've been trying to think how Ed could make himself more popular....

    Gordon Brown transformed himself from a confused stammerer at the last election into perhaps the most powerful and influential politician in the whole referendum campaign. He made a speech which reminded us of an age when a politician with a message and passion could change minds........

    People have been suggesting Ed steals the clothes of UKIP and starts talking about immigrants and develops a more clubbable manner. It won't work because it'll look fake. What Gordon did worked because he believed in it......

    I'd suggest he takes on UKIP head on. He starts by visiting soup kitchens then refuges for beaten up women then homeless shelters then goes to Calais to visit would be refugees risking life and limb for a job.....

    For every UKIP supporter there are five who wouldn't give them the time of day. The British are compassionate. In all the talk of austerity It's is a corner of the market that hasn't been touched. It would have two great advantages. It would give him a USP and because he'd be selling a 'cause' he'd automatically have the passion to promote it.

    Do it Ed, please.
  • The Tories are being played with by Farage,like tickling a trout.Dave might have to go as a final big bang strategy for the Tories.They offered trinkets to the natives in the form of tax cuts and it seems even shaking the magic money tree cannot help them.What ammunition have the Tories got left?Are the Tories in the Downfall bunker?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11157230/Farage-July-2015-referendum-is-my-price-for-propping-up-Tories.html

    Has he not upset the Labour agenda also?
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    The Tories are being played with by Farage,like tickling a trout.Dave might have to go as a final big bang strategy for the Tories.They offered trinkets to the natives in the form of tax cuts and it seems even shaking the magic money tree cannot help them.What ammunition have the Tories got left?Are the Tories in the Downfall bunker?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11157230/Farage-July-2015-referendum-is-my-price-for-propping-up-Tories.html

    The Tories will aim for a majority. There is no point in doing deals with Farage. He's not trustworthy.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Watching the Seattle football game and have a couple of observations -

    1) a Ford commercial introduces a brand new van. It's called the Transit. Sound familiar?

    2) Seattle just lost the Guinness World Record loudest crowd noise record to Kansas City. They want it back, so the noise is awesome.

    - unfortunately the visiting team is - Dallas.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    perdix said:

    The Tories are being played with by Farage,like tickling a trout.Dave might have to go as a final big bang strategy for the Tories.They offered trinkets to the natives in the form of tax cuts and it seems even shaking the magic money tree cannot help them.What ammunition have the Tories got left?Are the Tories in the Downfall bunker?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11157230/Farage-July-2015-referendum-is-my-price-for-propping-up-Tories.html

    The Tories will aim for a majority. There is no point in doing deals with Farage. He's not trustworthy.

    Cue UKIP rage at Cameron.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited October 2014
    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    I find Farage's "referendum in July 2015" just weird. It hardly gives any time for preparing for it, or allowing alternative negotiation, let alone a decent presentation of either side.

    It's like he wants to pretend to be different to Cameron and present an earlier date - but that actually would diminish his chances of a Yes by reducing his opportunity of building a case for Out (just like Salmond failed to do so).


  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Kippers won their first Westminster by betrayal. And ignorance. As the ukip voter said "I voted for them because I haven't seen my MP for ages."

  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    When will China overtake the USA on a GDP per capita basis?
    F*ck knows. Never?!

    Certainly it will take many decades, if it ever happens.

    Of course the richest countries in the world, PER CAPITA, are, at present, those global behemoths Qatar, Luxembourg, Norway and Monaco.
    Less smog in Monaco than Shanghai?

    :)
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    When will China overtake the USA on a GDP per capita basis?
    F*ck knows. Never?!

    Certainly it will take many decades, if it ever happens.

    Of course the richest countries in the world, PER CAPITA, are, at present, those global behemoths Qatar, Luxembourg, Norway and Monaco.
    Less smog in Monaco than Shanghai?

    :)

    I suspect there's plenty of smug in Monaco.

  • perdix said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Kippers won their first Westminster by betrayal. And ignorance. As the ukip voter said "I voted for them because I haven't seen my MP for ages."

    Betrayal would have been crossing the floor and no by-election.

    Get a grip.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    SeanT See pages 29-31 here for OECD GDP per capita estimates for 2050. China will have overtaken the likes of New Zealand and Canada many EU nations and be just behind the US and be a fully developed nation, though India will still be behind, though more prosperous. The Czech Republic is also set to be one of the most wealthy nations in Europe
    http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ENV/EPOC/WPCID(2012)6&docLanguage=En
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh, and BTW, I remember when I first started posting China-porn on here, about 8 years ago. I also remember when I suggested, back then, the apparently absurd concept that China would eventually surpass the USA in economic size, and go on to tower over rival economies.

    At the time I was laughed to scorn by almost everyone on the site.

    Last week China overtook America in economic size, judged by PPP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2014/10/08/chinas-leap-forward-overtaking-the-us-as-worlds-biggest-economy/

    Barring an attack by aliens, China will overtake the USA in nominal GDP fairly soon, as well.

    I am available for apologies.

    Firstly, I don't think anyone serious doubted that China would overtake the US in pure size terms. There's more doubt about whether they will hit Western per capita levels.

    Secondly, didn't China overtake the USA in PPP terms like a year ago? PPP should only be used to compare per capita income levels. It's pointless doing it on economy-wide data.
    People did doubt, and very loudly. Don't think you were on the site back in 2006? But when i first mooted that China would overtake America, and that it would happen way before we anticipated, people just laughed.

    I was right, they were wrong, so I'm gonna take this one opportunity to CHORTLE

    Loudly.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Xie Xie

    When will China overtake the USA on a GDP per capita basis?
    F*ck knows. Never?!

    Certainly it will take many decades, if it ever happens.

    Of course the richest countries in the world, PER CAPITA, are, at present, those global behemoths Qatar, Luxembourg, Norway and Monaco.
    Less smog in Monaco than Shanghai?

    :)

    I suspect there's plenty of smug in Monaco.

    You want to see smug - look at a Toyota Prius driver.
  • Grandiose said:

    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath

    It's such a pity tim no longer posts here. When it come to demolishing politicians' gimmicks, he was ace.

    And, wow, that is some gimmick from the Hon. Dr Tristram Julian William Hunt. So lunatic is it that it brings back fond memories of Gulags for Slags.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    edited October 2014
    SeanT Agreed, but don't forget as this Economist graph shows from 1000-1900 China was the largest economy in the world so this is rather reversion to the norm. http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21623758-chinas-back?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/chinasback

    China has the largest population in the world, so it really should be the largest economy
  • BlueberryBlueberry Posts: 408

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
    So the choices at the GE are:

    Pig in a poke - UKIP
    Pig in lipstick - Labour
    Pigs may fly - Libdems
    Pigs - Tories

    Trotterskyites - SWP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Former Thurrock MP Andrew Mackinlay says 'Ed you're a complete disaster as our leader...so stand aside now'
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2789576/sorry-ed-complete-disaster-leader-stand-aside-says-former-mp-andrew-mackinlay.html

    His comments follow those from Brian Wilson in today's Times that narrowly holding on to Heywood under Ed M was the equivalent of Labour holding Darlington in 1983, saving the leader's skins but dooming the party
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Grandiose said:

    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath

    It's such a pity tim no longer posts here. When it come to demolishing politicians' gimmicks, he was ace.

    And, wow, that is some gimmick from the Hon. Dr Tristram Julian William Hunt. So lunatic is it that it brings back fond memories of Gulags for Slags.
    It's been a hilarious day in eduland. The ridiculous oath from the left, and ridiculous swat teams from the right.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808

    Grandiose said:

    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath

    It's such a pity tim no longer posts here. When it come to demolishing politicians' gimmicks, he was ace.

    And, wow, that is some gimmick from the Hon. Dr Tristram Julian William Hunt. So lunatic is it that it brings back fond memories of Gulags for Slags.
    Indeed, Tristan Hunt has shown himself to be a complete knob
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Patrick Cockburn in today's Independent mentions that Iran may supply arms to the Kurds in Turkey if Turkey enters the Syrian conflict against Assad
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-against-isis-us-strategy-in-tatters-as-militants-march-on-9789230.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Grandiose said:

    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath

    It's such a pity tim no longer posts here. When it come to demolishing politicians' gimmicks, he was ace.

    And, wow, that is some gimmick from the Hon. Dr Tristram Julian William Hunt. So lunatic is it that it brings back fond memories of Gulags for Slags.
    "It's such a pity tim no longer posts here"

    PB Tories are always wrong
    PB Tories never learn
  • isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    Tristram Hunt's having a bad day at the office. Twitter has thousands of ironic #teacheroath suggestions. Most by/in support of teachers, others against... either way mocking the idea.

    My sons teachers work incredible hours with insufficient resources and lack of support. #teacheroath ?? @TristramHuntMP are you mad?

    #teacheroath Teachers already promise to give up far too much of their own time on school work; 90% consider leaving due to workload. Oath?

    I solemnly swear to work a 60 hour week to the detriment of my health and family, because "it's all about the data" #teacheroath

    #teacheroath I swear that I will provide umpteen art and craft resources out of my own money just so my students can do some fun activities

    As a parent I'd rather see education taken out of politicians' hands and left to professionals than daft gimmicks like #teacheroath

    It's such a pity tim no longer posts here. When it come to demolishing politicians' gimmicks, he was ace.

    And, wow, that is some gimmick from the Hon. Dr Tristram Julian William Hunt. So lunatic is it that it brings back fond memories of Gulags for Slags.
    "It's such a pity tim no longer posts here"

    PB Tories are always wrong
    PB Tories never learn
    Sorry tim!

    [This is a joke, BTW]
  • BlueberryBlueberry Posts: 408

    I find Farage's "referendum in July 2015" just weird. It hardly gives any time for preparing for it, or allowing alternative negotiation, let alone a decent presentation of either side.

    It's like he wants to pretend to be different to Cameron and present an earlier date - but that actually would diminish his chances of a Yes by reducing his opportunity of building a case for Out (just like Salmond failed to do so).

    Plus points for UKIP:

    Gives the GE a big EU flavour - and we know what happens when people vote on the EU
    Makes Cameron look like he's stalling - which he is
    Makes Cameron look like he thinks it's low priority - which it is for him, but he can't say that
    Means it's more likely Cameron will have to name a date in 2017 - which he hasn't so far
    Makes Westminster look a bit useless - what's the point in having thousands of politicians and advisors if they can't organise a vote in nine months?

    I though Neil caught Farage on the hop a bit with the question, but as ever Farage gave an answer - and not a bad one either because Cameron now has to go into the reasons he needs so long.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Favourites to defect to UKIP IMO:

    Labour: Austin Mitchell, Kate Hoey, Frank Field.
    Conservative: John Baron, Roger Gale, Owen Paterson.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    AndyJS John Mann is most likely from Labour in my view, he said over the weekend Labour needed to reach out to UKIP voters and was dismissed
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *CLAPS*
    Blueberry said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:


    "Ms Bours will call on David Cameron to support the trade union’s stance that the NHS should be exempted. There is real concern in the health service that the agreement will make it nigh-on impossible for any government to take back control of a service currently provided by the private sector, should they fail to perform adequately." ...... " the NHS was seen as ‘a victory for the working class’ at its creation in 1948."

    http://www.ukip.org/louise_bours_standing_up_for_the_nhs

    Did Nige not ditch that on live TV this morning...

    @BBCPeterH: Taxpayer must "get value for money" from NHS @Nigel_Farage tells #bbcsp - he wants "hard-nosed businessman" in charge http://t.co/UMg91uIYRH
    We all know that UKIP policy is what Nigel says it is on any particular day; subject to change when he sobers up in the morning.

    Bours is stunningly ignorant, but O'Flynn is fairly intelligent. No one seems to get to formulate policy without running it by Nigel. Who will have his flunkeys note it all down.

    It is like Kim Ill Jung, except Farage only feeds his rivsls to the press hounds rather than the real ones...
    Wherefore this persistent and foolish smearing of UKIP as drunken/amateurish/amusing - why does it still have any purchase?

    Very very clearly, despite their relative lack of funding, UKIP have street smarts and a savvy leadership. You don't get to 25% in the polls, and achieve your first Westminster MP, and win the 2nd most important national election, by being a bunch of boozers who can't get up before 11am.

    For Tories, this belittling of UKIP is doubly self-defeating, it is simultaneously stupid - it under-estimates the opponent - and also gruesomely transparent: it betrays an inner but unspoken fear.
    Is the policy on the WAG tax what O'Flynn says on Friday or what Farage trashes on Sunday?

    Is the policy on the NHS to end privatisation (as said by Bours) or to bring in hard nosed business men as per Farage?

    Or does it matter not a jot as it depends on Farages whim on the day?

    I hope that Carswell brings some inteloect and consistency to the party, otherwise voters will be buying a pig in a poke.
    So the choices at the GE are:

    Pig in a poke - UKIP
    Pig in lipstick - Labour
    Pigs may fly - Libdems
    Pigs - Tories

    Trotterskyites - SWP
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    May I remind people on this site that the professions are so called precisely because they had to take an oath.

    I shall remember these comments next time a Ukipper who's had far less education is criticised for his alleged ignorance.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Amazing daily mirror front page

    "Farage: I'll prop up Tories in exchange for referendum"

    He said he'd ask for the same from either Labour or Tory... I'm watching it now

  • isam said:

    Amazing daily mirror front page

    "Farage: I'll prop up Tories in exchange for referendum"

    He said he'd ask for the same from either Labour or Tory... I'm watching it now

    The Mirror will never let truth, integrity or context spoil a front page
  • AndyJS said:

    Favourites to defect to UKIP IMO:

    Labour: Austin Mitchell, Kate Hoey, Frank Field.
    Conservative: John Baron, Roger Gale, Owen Paterson.

    I just can't see any MP in London defecting to UKIP. Its a road to their P45
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    rcs1000 said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:



    There's another problem: UKIP are seen by many parts of the electorate as being beyond the pail. .

    The Conservatives have a toxicity problem of their very own, so there are similar sentiments on UKIP's side. UKIP might pick up Conservative votes from an electoral pact, but they would also lose some from former Labour voters and from the previously disillusioned.
    Not really. UKIP are seen as a split-party from the Conservatives, so I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at such a move (which I
    While Conservatives might like to think UKIP are a splinter group that should get in line, that's very much not the case in run-down northern towns. UKIP actually listens to these voters and accommodate their concerns. The Tories thinks the more disadvantaged parts of the country are places "trying not to die, filled with friendly people trying not to die".
    All political parties are coalitions: the Conservatives were the coalition between the owners (and
    You've missed off religious/social conservatives, who formerly used to be in the Tory bloc. No longer.

    Famously, in that land of FPTP, the Democrats used to be a coalition of Northern liberals and 'Dixiecrats' in the South. The civil rights era put a stop to that.

    It just goes to show Cameron's incompetence; campaign for FPTP, but smash your coalition that could give you power.

    Twerp.
    I agree re FPTP: but I would point out that all the UKIP supporters I personally know are (like Richard Tyndall) atheists.
    That says more about the circles you move in than it does about UKIP.

    Their opposition to gay "marriage" has won them a lot of Christian supporters, myself included.
  • Blueberry said:

    I find Farage's "referendum in July 2015" just weird. It hardly gives any time for preparing for it, or allowing alternative negotiation, let alone a decent presentation of either side.

    It's like he wants to pretend to be different to Cameron and present an earlier date - but that actually would diminish his chances of a Yes by reducing his opportunity of building a case for Out (just like Salmond failed to do so).

    Plus points for UKIP:

    Gives the GE a big EU flavour - and we know what happens when people vote on the EU
    Makes Cameron look like he's stalling - which he is
    Makes Cameron look like he thinks it's low priority - which it is for him, but he can't say that
    Means it's more likely Cameron will have to name a date in 2017 - which he hasn't so far
    Makes Westminster look a bit useless - what's the point in having thousands of politicians and advisors if they can't organise a vote in nine months?

    I though Neil caught Farage on the hop a bit with the question, but as ever Farage gave an answer - and not a bad one either because Cameron now has to go into the reasons he needs so long.
    The other benefits of Farage's statement of the price for UKIP's support after an election is that he can now call for the other leaders to state what there prices are (just after the Libdems got very cute about not saying what the price would be)

    Now every time another party refuses to say what their criteria for doing deals will be it will make them look evasive as if they have something to hide (which in fact they probably have).

    The thing is chances are that this election campaign is going to be mired with possibilities of a hung parliament and what deals there will be. Farage is now out in front of it which none of the other parties are and its a question which likely they would rather not have to deal with.

    The other astute thing about Farage's position is that it is payment up front. There is no possibility of the tit-for-tat denialism of the boundary changes / HoL reform spat between the Tories and Libdems. Being the junior partner in such an arrangement it would seem prudent to get payment up front.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Ninoinoz said:


    Their opposition to gay "marriage" has won them a lot of Christian supporters, myself included.

    Nobody likes bad weather.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    isam said:

    Amazing daily mirror front page

    "Farage: I'll prop up Tories in exchange for referendum"

    He said he'd ask for the same from either Labour or Tory... I'm watching it now

    The answer from Labour will be "forget it".

    Hoey and Field aren't potential defectors - the Tories have been hoping for them for years, but it misunderstands what makes them tick. Likewise John Mann - he's as much of a Labour loyalist as I am. He's just naturally combative, which gives a rebellious impression.

    I'm sceptical about the whole story, actually - UKIP seems to have a roughly 5:1 ratio of "people we think might defect" to people who actually do. My guess is that there's one more Tory to come and that'll be it.

    Incidentally, the Conservatives have finally started canvassing in Broxtowe - a year behind us. The LibDems haven't selected a candidate yet, UKIP just did but haven't done anything with him as yet - presumably a leaflet is in preparation. The Greens have had a chap for a year or so, but he's been preoccupied with his local town council, where he's working to get a by-election.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014

    isam said:

    Amazing daily mirror front page

    "Farage: I'll prop up Tories in exchange for referendum"

    He said he'd ask for the same from either Labour or Tory... I'm watching it now

    The answer from Labour will be "forget it".

    Hoey and Field aren't potential defectors - the Tories have been hoping for them for years, but it misunderstands what makes them tick. Likewise John Mann - he's as much of a Labour loyalist as I am. He's just naturally combative, which gives a rebellious impression.

    I'm sceptical about the whole story, actually - UKIP seems to have a roughly 5:1 ratio of "people we think might defect" to people who actually do. My guess is that there's one more Tory to come and that'll be it.

    Incidentally, the Conservatives have finally started canvassing in Broxtowe - a year behind us. The LibDems haven't selected a candidate yet, UKIP just did but haven't done anything with him as yet - presumably a leaflet is in preparation. The Greens have had a chap for a year or so, but he's been preoccupied with his local town council, where he's working to get a by-election.

    I agree Field does not really strike me as the type who'd defect, but are you sure about Hoey? She'd be the top one I'd suspect. Not just her views, but she generally does seem like a maverick in general who'd do something like it.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    Neil said:

    Ninoinoz said:


    Their opposition to gay "marriage" has won them a lot of Christian supporters, myself included.

    Nobody likes bad weather.
    You sure?

    NSFW



    [This OK, Mr. Moderator?]
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    isam said:

    Amazing daily mirror front page

    "Farage: I'll prop up Tories in exchange for referendum"

    He said he'd ask for the same from either Labour or Tory... I'm watching it now

    I hope he does not wait too long for a reply.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    AndyJS said:

    Favourites to defect to UKIP IMO:

    Labour: Austin Mitchell, Kate Hoey, Frank Field.
    Conservative: John Baron, Roger Gale, Owen Paterson.

    Nobody will be defecting from Labour.

  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Syria:

    Signs of a YPG and Free Syrian Army counter attack in Kobane. Progress unkown. The context, however, could be way more interesting. There are background rumours of a deal being struck between Iraqi Kurdish leader Barzani and Turkish big shot Erdogan regarding assistance to the Syrian Kurds.
  • YouGov should also have asked if only LABOUR or UKIP have a realistic chance of winning then how would you vote.
This discussion has been closed.