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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB’s strategy in Heywood and Middleton is blindingly obvio

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    If you want "training" as opposed to cheap labour, it might have helped if all your oh so clever business men had thought to train a few more apprentices, rather than get ready trained ones from abroad.
    "Hey uncle Peitr, run me up a set of trade papers and an HGV driving license on your computer. No need to be too careful about the quality, the Brit bosses never check "

    ROFL

    maybe if the lefties had contolled immigration employers would have been forced to invest more in apprenticeships.

    4 million people turn up on the doorstep and you wonder why there is no wage growth, housing is undersupplied and we need more midwives.

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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Neil said:

    Freggles said:

    Scott_P said:


    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....

    There is a good chance that speech was Ed's AAALLLLRRRIIIIIGGGHHHHHHHHHTTT moment
    PB Tories before speech

    "Nobody will care, it'll be knocked off the news by Isis"

    PB Tories after speech

    "THIS DAY WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
    Tbf I dont think the reaction to this speech will make it into the top 10 classic pb overreactions to speeches / events.

    I agree, but then it's a very competitive market.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Scott_P said:

    Neil said:


    250,000 people is a very small proportion of the electorate, isnt it?

    Concentrated in a small number of constituencies
    Please say you're predicting more Tory gains in London than you predicted for Edinburgh last time. It would brighten a crap morning.

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    Neil said:

    Scott_P said:

    As Labour get more and more flack for the Mansion Tax, it occurs to me that was actually Vince Cable's policy. When are we going to here from him on this?

    @CCHQPress: Experts warn 250,000 people will be forced to pay for surveyors to assess their property under Labour’s homes tax
    http://t.co/LGmmhjrNJY
    250,000 people is a very small proportion of the electorate, isnt it?

    This story of surveyors and tax forms was obviously also brief to Daily T:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11119508/Tell-the-taxman-how-much-your-home-is-worth-under-Ed-Milibands-mansion-tax.html
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    Scott_P said:

    @Sun_Politics: EXCL: Miliband’s ‘ordinary girl’ has expensive private education: http://t.co/OZhY2Y6OBv

    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....
    To be honest, anyone with the name 'Beatrice' is likely to be at the posher end of the spectrum than the lower end.

    Should have gone for a Donna, or a Tracey.
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    Mr. Borough, hopefully Miliband will clarify, but I'd assumed it'd be the state assessing every house in the country (of course, that would mean everyone paying via taxation rather than just those who might potentially be affected).
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Alanbrooke
    Why would the state interfere with the workings of the "market"? The "market" is self regulating perfection is it not?
    The answer is it isn't, and never could be, but despite pointing out its logical short comings, it seems there are those indeed "too blind to see"
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    Scott_P said:

    @Sun_Politics: EXCL: Miliband’s ‘ordinary girl’ has expensive private education: http://t.co/OZhY2Y6OBv

    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....
    To be honest, anyone with the name 'Beatrice' is likely to be at the posher end of the spectrum than the lower end.

    Should have gone for a Donna, or a Tracey.
    They do it basically every year. Turns out there aren't enough success stories from the more traditional parts of the Labour party.

    Two years back, we had son of a successful business man, privately educated - "every I have, I owe to the state" ... "and your Dad" was the missing bit to that speech.

    It's tedious.
    It's dishonest.
    But no-one really cares.

    Back in t'real world ...

    "The jobs market for new graduates improved last year to bring the biggest drop in unemployment among university leavers for 15 years.

    There was also a fall in the numbers of graduates working as retail, catering, waiting and bar staff and in those going on to further study, according to a report from the Higher Education Careers Services Unit (Hecsu)."

    and long may it continue.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    edited September 2014
    SquareRoot

    "That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes....."

    What I think is 'hilarious' is that the evidence the Sun use to prove her abnormality is that she went to the same school as Samantha Cameron! This freak apparently aspires to becoming a Labour MP the template is wife of the PM.

    I wonder what Sun readers will make of it or will they just be curious which of this privately educated duo has the bigger tits?
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Can anyone imagine EdM delivering a positive and direction-leading speech at the UN like DC did yesterday?

    YouGov still shoes DC as best PM in all GB regions, all age groups and social grades.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Neil said:


    Please say you're predicting more Tory gains in London than you predicted for Edinburgh last time. It would brighten a crap morning.

    Just for you

    @faisalislam: Mansion tax or Hyde park orbital tax? “@grant_rob: £2m+ homes sold around Hyde Park since 2010. http://t.co/s13cMYVEGI
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    I was actually quite worried about Miliband at one point because despite being an idiot he is clearly good at manipulative politicking. However, I'm starting to relax a little more because I evidently under-estimated just how big an idiot he is. It's fairly breathtaking to consider he might just be the most incompetent Labour leader since Michael Foot, and at least the latter had principles.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzBP7FSDHMY#t=249
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Smarmeron said:

    @Alanbrooke
    Why would the state interfere with the workings of the "market"? The "market" is self regulating perfection is it not?
    The answer is it isn't, and never could be, but despite pointing out its logical short comings, it seems there are those indeed "too blind to see"

    Yeah most of the blind ones tend to be short termists who think dumping 4 million people in a crowded country is a cracking idea. And then when the chickens come home to roost can figure out where the problems came from

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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Financier
    Invest your liquid assets at the bookies then, and order the new roller for the missus/boyfriend.
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    As an aside, was it co-incidence that Jon Snow's particularly agressive interview with Ed M just happened on the day it was announced Paxo would be the C4 election coverage host?

    I don't normally watch C4 news but had gained the impression he was viewed as a bit of a guardianista normally?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Andrew_ComRes: Good morning all - #GE2015 is 223 days away
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @CCHQPress: Oh dear. Bill De Blasio leaves out the lines in his speech referring to @Ed_Miliband as the next and “great” PM
    http://t.co/1QcWfUWxCj
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2014
    Roger said:

    SquareRoot

    "That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes....."

    What I think is hilarious is that the evidence the Sun use to prove her abnormality is that she went to the same school as Samantha Cameron! This freak apparently just aspires to becoming a Labour MP the template is wife of the PM.

    I wonder what Sun readers will make of it or will they just be curious which has the bigger tits?

    That's right Roger , blame the Sun, it was quite wrong of them to point out Ed's claim of an ordinary girl wasn't quite what it seemed. Its perfectly reasonable to point out that a prospective PM was being a trifle economical with the truth. Should they have forgotten that he missed out a huge chunk of his speech just to give the poor bloke a chance.


    I bet you never piped up when the Sun and other papers were sticking it to Dave.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jameschappers: Ex-Chancellor Denis Healey, 97, tells @henrydeedes of Miliband: "I knew his dad well and I've met Ed a few times. He's not very good is he?"
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    As an aside, was it co-incidence that Jon Snow's particularly agressive interview with Ed M just happened on the day it was announced Paxo would be the C4 election coverage host?

    I don't normally watch C4 news but had gained the impression he was viewed as a bit of a guardianista normally?

    'impression'? Jon Snows a full blown leftie...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,623
    DavidL said:

    Gadfly said:

    For those who missed Miliband's astonishing interview with Jon Snow on Channel 4 News last night...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtkVmqYnzZs&feature=youtu.be

    Ed forgets the deficit again, and Jon Snow appears to be visibly angry with him as a consequence.

    And Ed does not want to talk about any of this, decisions that will completely dominate his time as PM. It is really shocking. And pathetic. And disgraceful.
    And likely to be successful.

    EdM is right - the big question is what sort of Britain we will have: one for everyone or one for the elite.

    It is the question, although of course it is the wrong one for all our well-being. And Lab know that and, shamelessly but effectively, they don't care. They have an election to win.

    And be absolutely clear, throwing economic literacy at it will do no good whatsoever.

    Ed's advisers must be doing jigs of delight at how this has played out.
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    Neil said:

    Freggles said:

    Scott_P said:


    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....

    There is a good chance that speech was Ed's AAALLLLRRRIIIIIGGGHHHHHHHHHTTT moment
    PB Tories before speech

    "Nobody will care, it'll be knocked off the news by Isis"

    PB Tories after speech

    "THIS DAY WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
    Tbf I dont think the reaction to this speech will make it into the top 10 classic pb overreactions to speeches / events.

    That's probably true. After all, there is such strong competition for frothing overreactions to Labour events on here that to make the Top Ten now is a serious feat.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited September 2014
    @Alanbrooke
    Same type of moron who thought that turning the economy into a "service industry economy" was the way forward.
    Even Hayek worked out that he was talking bollox eventually.
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    As an aside, was it co-incidence that Jon Snow's particularly agressive interview with Ed M just happened on the day it was announced Paxo would be the C4 election coverage host?

    I don't normally watch C4 news but had gained the impression he was viewed as a bit of a guardianista normally?

    Generally I tend to watch Channel 4 news, its the best round-up of the days events in my opinion, but has concentrate a bit too much on foreign affairs recently. They've hoovered up quite a few old Newsnight lags like Michael Crick (who'll be interesting to watch digging around in run-up to GE). Not sure about the Guardianista bit. Snow was however accused of going a bit over the top, emotionally, during the Israeli-Gaza events.
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    I have never liked Miliband, he looks odd, sounds odd, and to me, comes across on tv as a dork. I just cannot watch him for more than a few secs.
    That said, when you have his disadvantages you just have to be spot on with your PR.. Is Miliband overriding his PR team, or are they less than useless?
    How could he possibly miss.. when kissing his wife???.. I mean jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

    They are worse than useless but so are everyone else's election gurus, so they cancel each other out. Look at Scotland, which we almost lost to the low-budget SNP until being rescued by the unspinnable (as Labour proved to destruction 2008 to 2010) Gordon Brown.

    Who gives a toss whether Ed Miliband can eat a bacon sandwich or David Cameron buys cornish pasties? Yet this is the drivel served up by their PR teams.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Smarmeron said:

    @Alanbrooke
    Same type of moron who thought that turning the economy into a "service industry economy" was the way forward.
    Even Hayek worked out that he was talking bollox eventually.

    Did Hayek meet Gordon Brown ? You know the CoE who presided over the biggest loss of manufacturing in our history.

    Labour - the deindustrialisation party.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Scott_P said:

    Neil said:


    Please say you're predicting more Tory gains in London than you predicted for Edinburgh last time. It would brighten a crap morning.

    Just for you

    @faisalislam: Mansion tax or Hyde park orbital tax? “@grant_rob: £2m+ homes sold around Hyde Park since 2010. http://t.co/s13cMYVEGI
    Looks like it might cost Labour the marginal Cities of London and Westminster constituency.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Precisely. Honestly, as @audreyanne‌ said on FPT he's beginning to make Gordon look.

    This had TRAP written all over it. And he fell straight into it. Dancing to his own tribal base's dislike of The Sun is even more stupid. They'll vote for him anyway.

    Will he do a Salmond and refuse to allow the bits of the press he doesn't like at his press conferences?

    He really needs to grow up. In every sense, from his schoolboy image to his student politics.

    FPT: the Sun.

    The Sun have been naughty with today's paper. I've got no doubt that Miliband supports Help For Heroes, and the suggestion he does not - just because he refuses to cooperate with the Sun - is nasty. But the Sun's interest in H4H is hardly new: they gave the charity a massive amount of publicity when it was set up back in 2007, and they apparently often feature campaigns for them. It was an obvious trap.

    However, this was a trap created not by the Sun, but by Miliband's own backbenchers, whose own attitude towards the Sun is childish and stupid. Miliband will be going into the election with a positively antagonistic relationship with one of the largest selling newspapers, and in fact the entire group.

    *If* the Sun asked Miliband's people (which we have to assume they did), then Miliband could simply have spiked this story by wearing a HFH bad at some public function in the last few days during conference. When this story appears: voila! Ready-made pictures proving he does support HFH. Who knows, such pictures may still appear.

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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @DecrepitJohnL
    "Yet this is the drivel served up by their PR teams."
    Then reheated and served again by the PB teams? ;-)
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,247
    edited September 2014
    Neil said:

    Freggles said:

    Scott_P said:


    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....

    There is a good chance that speech was Ed's AAALLLLRRRIIIIIGGGHHHHHHHHHTTT moment
    PB Tories before speech

    "Nobody will care, it'll be knocked off the news by Isis"

    PB Tories after speech

    "THIS DAY WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
    Tbf I dont think the reaction to this speech will make it into the top 10 classic pb overreactions to speeches / events.

    Quite, not Dave's Awesome Speech TM was it?
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
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    Scott_P said:

    @jameschappers: Ex-Chancellor Denis Healey, 97, tells @henrydeedes of Miliband: "I knew his dad well and I've met Ed a few times. He's not very good is he?"

    LOL. Denis never forgot to mention the deficit, did he.
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    Scott_P said:

    @Sun_Politics: EXCL: Miliband’s ‘ordinary girl’ has expensive private education: http://t.co/OZhY2Y6OBv

    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....
    To be honest, anyone with the name 'Beatrice' is likely to be at the posher end of the spectrum than the lower end.

    Should have gone for a Donna, or a Tracey.
    They do it basically every year. Turns out there aren't enough success stories from the more traditional parts of the Labour party.

    Two years back, we had son of a successful business man, privately educated - "every I have, I owe to the state" ... "and your Dad" was the missing bit to that speech.

    It's tedious.
    It's dishonest.
    But no-one really cares.

    Back in t'real world ...

    "The jobs market for new graduates improved last year to bring the biggest drop in unemployment among university leavers for 15 years.

    There was also a fall in the numbers of graduates working as retail, catering, waiting and bar staff and in those going on to further study, according to a report from the Higher Education Careers Services Unit (Hecsu)."

    and long may it continue.
    Didn't Dave meet a black man in Plymouth some time ago? I agree that it's tedious, but it's not just EdM who does it.
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    Scott_P said:

    @Sun_Politics: EXCL: Miliband’s ‘ordinary girl’ has expensive private education: http://t.co/OZhY2Y6OBv

    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....
    They don't know any ordinary people.

    When they actually do meet one, as Gordon Brown did in Rochdale, they are horrified.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    "Ukip’s rise is commonly put down to unhappiness with “Westminster” and the established parties. Mr Carswell misses no opportunity to tell Clacton he’s turned his back on the “corporate” parties, and some voters respond warmly: as I walked the streets with him yesterday, several volunteered the thought that Conservatives and Labour are all the same, all promises and no action.
    But this is about more than anger. It’s about choice. Today, anyone with an internet connection can, in a few seconds, buy just about anything in the world and have it delivered to their door in days. They can watch TV and movies from almost any country, read the news from tens of thousands of outlets. They can choose.
    And given choices, people tend to use them. We have all become promiscuous in our shopping, eating and viewing habits. Marketing experts used to find it fairly easy to divide people according to their preferred supermarket. But now, Waitrose people shop in Lidl, too. Brand loyalty is history and even giants such as Tesco struggle to keep up with consumers spoilt for choice. And just try explaining to the YouTube generation that not too long ago, televisions had only three channels.

    Voters shop around too. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11118860/Voters-are-going-to-shop-around-from-now-on.html
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited September 2014

    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    Don't try to buck the issue. Our companies have basically been doing as little training as possible. Since the glory days of Thatcherism, right through Phony Blairs years, they have looked to the cheapest option like good little Thatcherites. Now as those people are retiring, they are whining that there is a shortage of trained personnel for them to hire.
    How much foresight would that have taken? The answer is none at all if they had opened their ears and listened.

    I have a friend who works in a specialist engineering firm. They are increasingly reliant on a handful of senior skilled workers now into their fifties.
    @Foxinsoxuk.
    You make an excellent point - many of today's graduates lack a wide technical base to support their speciality. Those coming from the BRIC countries as well as parts of Europe have received this training.

    @Charles: You suggest SMEs interacting with their local university -ours does not even understand what we do and only offer advice for a fat fee. Other universities we have tried to work with are very precious over our IPR which they want to splash across publications.

    Today, I need four radical thinking, very good scientists/engineers (for the SME consultancy with which I am working) which it looks like we will have to source outside the UK. Recently we have won contracts with global companies operating in Mexico, KSA, Malaysia and Slovakia. The main problem has been financing our cash flow to support these contracts. None of the banks are interested, indeed many will not countenance business in the BRIC countries, Middle East or South America. So we have had to resort to unusual financing. However the local office of the UKTI have been excellent in supplying local knowledge. GO really needs to sort out export and export-supporting finance.

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    Neil said:

    Scott_P said:

    Neil said:


    Please say you're predicting more Tory gains in London than you predicted for Edinburgh last time. It would brighten a crap morning.

    Just for you

    @faisalislam: Mansion tax or Hyde park orbital tax? “@grant_rob: £2m+ homes sold around Hyde Park since 2010. http://t.co/s13cMYVEGI
    Looks like it might cost Labour the marginal Cities of London and Westminster constituency.

    As the bank robber Willie Sutton once said when asked why he robbed banks, “Because that’s where the money is.”
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Alanbrooke
    Everyone eventually came to believe in "Thatcherism", it obviously seemed to work and made "money".
    Of course we now know that it was a load of steaming bullcrap, or at least some do.
    Tell me about the beauty of your beloved Empress' clothes?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    SquareRoot

    "I bet you never piped up when the Sun and other papers were sticking it to Dave."

    She went to the same school as SAMANTHA CAMERON!! You don't think some sub-editors testicles are being boiled over a hot stove at Chez Murdoch as we speak?
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,247
    On topic, and before I start work, maybe Labour's game here is that they feel it's in their interest for a strong second from UKIP. Looking to the election they might still be judging a strong UKIP will harm the Tories more than them, and especially in marginals like Dudley S, Cannock and Stourbridge to quote local examples.

    A strategy that is not without danger though.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Roger
    It cannot be? Samcam is just an ordinary housewife after all?
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    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.
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    Mr. Isam, hmm.

    Carswell had no problem with a 'corporate' party when it got him a seat. When it looked like losing him a seat he underwent a sudden change of heart.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    What I find so perplexing here [and I speak as an ex-PR bod] is that Labour are completely confusing their emotional dislike of The Sun with their own strategic agenda.

    EdM appearing with a H4H wristband is totally trivial in the grand scheme of things. However, by refusing to play nice - he's generated a story that implies:

    - he won't put supporting wounded soldiers before his personal antipathy towards The Sun. That's a biggie.

    - that he's weak-kneed about being his own man if this isn't the case, as he's capitulated anyway. That plays into him being unfit for high office - again.

    What a numpty. H4H has been a massive campaign by The Sun for donkeys. I know one of the team who set H4H up and they take no prisoners when it comes to PR - I've total respect for them.

    FPT: the Sun.

    The Sun have been naughty with today's paper. I've got no doubt that Miliband supports Help For Heroes, and the suggestion he does not - just because he refuses to cooperate with the Sun - is nasty. But the Sun's interest in H4H is hardly new: they gave the charity a massive amount of publicity when it was set up back in 2007, and they apparently often feature campaigns for them. It was an obvious trap.

    However, this was a trap created not by the Sun, but by Miliband's own backbenchers, whose own attitude towards the Sun is childish and stupid. Miliband will be going into the election with a positively antagonistic relationship with one of the largest selling newspapers, and in fact the entire group.

    *If* the Sun asked Miliband's people (which we have to assume they did), then Miliband could simply have spiked this story by wearing a HFH bad at some public function in the last few days during conference. When this story appears: voila! Ready-made pictures proving he does support HFH. Who knows, such pictures may still appear.

    Good post JJ.

    It's no good being high minded with The Sun about this. They don't simply try and steer a nation, they are also a litmus test. As you rightly point out Miliband has been an absolute fool.

    If you take on The Sun as he has done you will lose the election, even in this age of internet media.

    Mind you, I am biased. I think The Sun cover is hilarious :)
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2014
    Roger said:

    SquareRoot

    "I bet you never piped up when the Sun and other papers were sticking it to Dave."

    She went to the same school as SAMANTHA CAMERON!! You don't think some sub-editors testicles are being boiled over a hot stove at Chez Murdoch as we speak?

    It doesn't matter a damn about SamCam, it matters that Ed was not quite correct(to put it politely)...

    ED's a duffer, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it, making gaffs like this just reinforces what people already think.

    Where were you Roger when the press were sticking it to Dave ??>??? You wouldn't be being hypocritical now would you.?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,054
    Not going to log into any betting accounts on public wi-fi, and already have a position on this but 2-9 is a big big price for an easy(ish) Labour hold here in my opinion.

    Should be 1-8 or thereabouts I reckon.

    Also good to see the SNP seemingly doing well.

    Sayonara all.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Plato
    "What a numpty. H4H has been a massive campaign by The Sun for donkeys"
    H4H helps wounded donkeys? or are the wounded soldiers "donkeys"?
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    Scott_P said:

    @Sun_Politics: EXCL: Miliband’s ‘ordinary girl’ has expensive private education: http://t.co/OZhY2Y6OBv

    That is just hilarious.. WTF are Miliband's PR team doing??? They are supposed to protect him from making such stupid mistakes.....
    They don't know any ordinary people.

    When they actually do meet one, as Gordon Brown did in Rochdale, they are horrified.
    The current labour party reminds me of the woman in 'Common people' by pulp....

    'She studied sculpture at St Martins collage...she came from Greece and had a thirst for knowledge'

    'Because you think that poor is cool......'
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191


    I don't normally watch C4 news but had gained the impression he was viewed as a bit of a guardianista normally?

    Precisely! I believe his anger stemmed from the fact that by denying the deficit Miliband was leaving himself exposed to attack; thereby reducing out the prospect of a Labour government acquiring office next year..

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    There's a trap and an opportunity for the Conservatives on the mansion tax. The trap is to bewail the impact on hardworking lawyers and bankers. That impact is both popular (and right) and such a line of attack would feed the prejudices about the Conservative party.

    The opportunity is to attack the workability of the proposal. The public don't believe that Labour can deliver its promises. So showing that the plan is impractical would feed the prejudices about Labour.

    NB I support property taxes, and my main objection to Labour's proposal is that it is far too timid. All properties over £500,000 should be in the net. Labour's unwillingness to create any real losers from its proposals (all of its victims are fantasy bogeymen) is a really bad sign.

    We need to start making sure that the wealthy as well as those with high income bear their share of the burden. The two groups are not identical.
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    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    Incredible, shows you have no understanding of how an economy works.
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    Smarmeron said:

    @Plato
    "What a numpty. H4H has been a massive campaign by The Sun for donkeys"
    H4H helps wounded donkeys? or are the wounded soldiers "donkeys"?

    donkey's years... it's a lower class term...no wonder you didn't get it dear boy...
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    The local paper asked the candidates for Heywood and Middleton about the WLQ

    "The Conservative Parliamentary candidate for Heywood and Middleton, Iain Gartisde, claims Labour should stand up and “do the right thing” by backing English votes for English law in Parliament. "

    The Liberal Democrat candidate, Anthony Smith said: “It is clearly nonsense that Scottish MPs should be able to vote on things that only affect England"

    John Bickley, UKIP parliamentary candidate for Heywood and Middleton, said: “We want a new constitutional settlement for the UK which includes a fair deal for the 86% of the UK’s population who live in England."

    Abi Jackson, the Green party’s candidate, said: "For there just to be a ban on Scottish MPs voting on English issues, would be a fundamental break of the constitution of the United Kingdom. It would be like saying that Middleton or Heywood councillors could not vote on Rochdale issues at Council meetings.

    Labour candidate, Liz McInnes did not respond."

    http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/91519/heywood-and-middleton-candidates-express-views-on-banning-scottish-mps-from-voting-on-english-laws
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    About 10 times bigger than the Guardian then...
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Slackbladder
    Coming from a PR background, and being so successful, Plato should know to reread before posting. The rest of us have an excuse.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite. Getting the balance pitch perfect is bloody hard. "Don't let the other lot wreck it again" still has a great deal of resonance.

    DavidL said:

    Gadfly said:

    For those who missed Miliband's astonishing interview with Jon Snow on Channel 4 News last night...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtkVmqYnzZs&feature=youtu.be

    Ed forgets the deficit again, and Jon Snow appears to be visibly angry with him as a consequence.

    This shows that what happened in the speech is no accident. His message is that what the government needs to do is to get the economy working for the common man and woman and he seems to genuinely believe that is the most important issue. So we have the recovery for the few and not the many etc. feeding into the perception that current economic growth is not helping many of us.

    As an analysis and a political position this has some merit and will undoubtedly have some resonance. As a plan to govern the country it is beyond pathetic. Every decision has to be made in the context of what is still an extremely poor financial position. So far we have had some new taxes for frankly trivial sums which are already at least matched by new spending. And we have £400m of cuts on CB.

    He assumes the deficit will be £75bn next year. I have my doubts. The changes in National Statistics added another £5bn to the deficit and there is no signs it is coming down from last year. So his government will be borrowing the thick end of £100bn a year as well as paying £75bn of debt interest.

    The cuts that Osborne has in his budget are severe and so far as Labour are concerned completely unallocated. No attempt was made by anyone for Labour to say where they are going to apply these cuts. They are also not enough. We also need much bigger tax increases. I frankly wonder if it will be possible to maintain current spending on the NHS in real terms. The knock on consequences for everything else are simply too severe.

    And Ed does not want to talk about any of this, decisions that will completely dominate his time as PM. It is really shocking. And pathetic. And disgraceful.
    There is a risk to the Conservatives that floating voters feel the deficit is basically under control and largely 'fixed', so it's now safe to vote Labour again.

    It's Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Crosby's job to make sure they understand just how dire the situation still is.
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    Never confuse sales with readership.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Smarmeron said:

    @Alanbrooke
    Everyone eventually came to believe in "Thatcherism", it obviously seemed to work and made "money".
    Of course we now know that it was a load of steaming bullcrap, or at least some do.
    Tell me about the beauty of your beloved Empress' clothes?

    So in effect you're ducking the fact that the Left has been worse for manufacturing than Mrs T.

    Hardly a surprise.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    The funny thing is that anyone who has met journalists on the lower tabloids will know that a politician with 2 O'levels is much better educated and several times more articulate. Why they allow themselves to be bullied by people who are little better than 'special needs' is a mystery
  • Options
    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.
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    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    Correct!

    Now, how many goals will we lose by on saturday and will we really have Kaboul/Chiriches as our CBs..... the 2 are linked...
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.

    There is nothing that Miliband can do or say that will make the Sun coverage of him any less hostile. He knows that come the GE he is going to be completely and mercilessly hammered by them. So why bother playing their game? The idea that he has made a mistake is laughable.

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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    New Tory slogan? Let Labour in, and they will destroy your food banks!
    ( Dave, let me run your campaign, I promise it will be memorable)
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    Roger said:

    The funny thing is that anyone who has met journalists on the lower tabloids will know that a politician with 2 O'levels is much better educated and several times more articulate. Why they allow themselves to be bullied by people who are little better than 'special needs' is a mystery

    Lower tabloids?

    You mean the newspapers that the WWC read? Keep patronising them please, it will do wonders for UKIP.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I really noticed Jenni Russell losing the will to live with EdM a few weeks ago.

    She seemed to be genuinely unable to be forgiving anymore. I felt quite sorry for her.

    Unlike broken biscuits, broken dreams don't taste sweet.
    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    Been away for a few days, so may have missed it - but did Redward's speech not only omit the deficit and immigration but, more importantly, Scotland / ENGLAND? Is it still radio silence on EVFEL?

    Yes. Jenni Russell, one of Ed's few remaining press cheerleaders has this today
    Gordon Brown overlooked voters’ concerns and paid the price. The same trap awaits his successor

    The English question was a largely hidden fracture running through the Labour conference. The leadership didn’t want to address it, the main hall didn’t debate it and only a handful of fringe meetings brought it up at all. The UK’s constitution had just been thrown up in the air by the promise of greater powers for Scotland but Ed Miliband’s inner circle were convinced that discussing the impact on England would give unnecessary oxygen to a Tory plot.

    Extraordinary. Seventy-two hours after we had almost lost the Union because Westminster so badly underestimated the appeal of Scottish nationalism, English unease about what this meant for them was being dismissed as an unimportant political phenomenon.

    This is a mistake, and many in the party know it.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4217248.ece

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Financier said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    Don't try to buck the issue. Our companies have basically been doing as little training as possible. Since the glory days of Thatcherism, right through Phony Blairs years, they have looked to the cheapest option like good little Thatcherites. Now as those people are retiring, they are whining that there is a shortage of trained personnel for them to hire.
    How much foresight would that have taken? The answer is none at all if they had opened their ears and listened.

    I have a friend who works in a specialist engineering firm. They are increasingly reliant on a handful of senior skilled workers now into their fifties.
    @Foxinsoxuk.
    You make an excellent point - many of today's graduates lack a wide technical base to support their speciality. Those coming from the BRIC countries as well as parts of Europe have received this training.

    @Charles: You suggest SMEs interacting with their local university -ours does not even understand what we do and only offer advice for a fat fee. Other universities we have tried to work with are very precious over our IPR which they want to splash across publications.

    Today, I need four radical thinking, very good scientists/engineers (for the SME consultancy with which I am working) which it looks like we will have to source outside the UK. Recently we have won contracts with global companies operating in Mexico, KSA, Malaysia and Slovakia. The main problem has been financing our cash flow to support these contracts. None of the banks are interested, indeed many will not countenance business in the BRIC countries, Middle East or South America. So we have had to resort to unusual financing. However the local office of the UKTI have been excellent in supplying local knowledge. GO really needs to sort out export and export-supporting finance.

    LOL

    The main problem has been financing our cash flow to support these contracts. None of the banks are interested, indeed many will not countenance business in the BRIC countries, Middle East or South America.

    welcome to Engineering Mr F.

    your problem isn't exactly unknown.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Alanbrooke
    New Labour was "left"? You are joshing with me you rapscallion you.
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.

    So what the Tories do then.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited September 2014
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Gadfly said:

    For those who missed Miliband's astonishing interview with Jon Snow on Channel 4 News last night...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtkVmqYnzZs&feature=youtu.be

    Ed forgets the deficit again, and Jon Snow appears to be visibly angry with him as a consequence.

    And Ed does not want to talk about any of this, decisions that will completely dominate his time as PM. It is really shocking. And pathetic. And disgraceful.
    Interesting analysis, Ed as utilitarian, and omission as deliberate. What the right doesn't seem to realise is that economics is about balance. Standing on one end of the seesaw repeatedly sawing chunks off the bit you're standing on just leaves ever less room to stand. Many, many people feel, as I do, that this one dimensional view of the deficit; something that can be resolved by cuts alone, is harming this great country, contributing to a massive rise in inequality and loss of opportunity among the people who live here. Why should the terms of the debate be set entirely in the language of the right?
    The debate is set in the language of economics not right or left. I am clear (much clearer than Osborne I admit) that we simply cannot deal with a deficit of the current size without major increases in taxes. It is simply not possible to cut £100bn from government spending whilst protecting the NHS. Whole departments would have to cease to exist.

    The debate for our politicians is where the balance is to be found between tax increases and cuts. And Ed refuses to talk about this. Osborne and Cameron want to cut more rather than tax more. They are pretty clear and there is room for a centre left alternative to be made.
    In work benefits are the area that needs to be focused on (they don't show up in the spending because they are treated as negative revenues).

    Then lots of sweeties - small but they add up (free TV licenses for oaps, tighter restrictions on winter heating etc). Tax middle class benefits - like child benefit and/or restrict to the first 3 kids. And then look carefully at things like international aid: there's clearly a role for some but not sure £11bn
    Charles, if we're going to be £50bn down a the top of the economic cycle you're Milibanding! Means-test Old Age Pensions, replace the NHS with Health Vouchers (of diminishing value each year) and something similar for schools.

    Since you can't that sort of thing past the electorate, we need a Strong Man. Perhaps Mrs Merkel can do for us what she's doing for Greece and the Irish Republic?

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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.

    So what the Tories do then.
    Rubbish. Show me when the Conservatives have made the same level of attacks on the Labour press as Labour have done on the Murdoch press?
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    Roger said:

    The funny thing is that anyone who has met journalists on the lower tabloids will know that a politician with 2 O'levels is much better educated and several times more articulate. Why they allow themselves to be bullied by people who are little better than 'special needs' is a mystery

    Little better than 'special needs'? Why don't you just call them spazz's and go the whole hog?
  • Options

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    Correct!

    Now, how many goals will we lose by on saturday and will we really have Kaboul/Chiriches as our CBs..... the 2 are linked...

    It is going to be horrible.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Great post. And yup. It's things like this that need to be highlighted.

    I've been a big and longstanding supporter for an English Parly - it irks me a great deal.
    Patrick said:

    Thanks all for clarifying Ed's speech omissions.

    So...he's going to end the concept of private property ownership by introducing mansion taxes (which will fall overwhelmingly in Tory voting England) and spend the 1.5 billion (believe that number if you will) on the ENGLISH NHS. And the legislation to push all this through after a putative narrow election victory will be passed with Welsh and Scottish MPs' votes and very likely no English majority.

    Anyone spot a teeny tiny democratic deficit in this plan?

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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    Incredible, shows you have no understanding of how an economy works.
    Keynes famously said: sort out unemployment and the deficit will sort itself.

    He could have gone further - it is decent jobs that are needed to sort the deficit out. As Osborne is showing in spades.

    What, pray, do you haver to base your understanding on?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812
    Roger said:

    The funny thing is that anyone who has met journalists on the lower tabloids will know that a politician with 2 O'levels is much better educated and several times more articulate. Why they allow themselves to be bullied by people who are little better than 'special needs' is a mystery

    they allow themselves to be bullied because they enjoy it

    oh yes, oh yes Roger you big boy.
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.

    So what the Tories do then.
    Rubbish. Show me when the Conservatives have made the same level of attacks on the Labour press as Labour have done on the Murdoch press?

    Show me the attacks that Labour has made on the Times and the Sunday Times. It's the Sun that is the Labour target; just as the Guardian is the Tory target. And the BBC, of course.

    With this, as with so much else, I fear we will not agree.

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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.

    There is nothing that Miliband can do or say that will make the Sun coverage of him any less hostile. He knows that come the GE he is going to be completely and mercilessly hammered by them. So why bother playing their game? The idea that he has made a mistake is laughable.

    Indeed. A new low for the PB Tories' dimwit wing this morning. Good to see bright Tories like Scrapheap distancing themselves from this.

    I am reminded of the words of a lost, lamented poster.

    The PB Tories are always wrong. And they never, ever learn.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Slackbladder
    " Why don't you just call them spazz's and go the whole hog?"
    If you do that, they might claim benefits, and the system is choked already with people waiting for assessment.
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    BenM said:

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    Incredible, shows you have no understanding of how an economy works.
    Keynes famously said: sort out unemployment and the deficit will sort itself.

    He could have gone further - it is decent jobs that are needed to sort the deficit out. As Osborne is showing in spades.

    What, pray, do you haver to base your understanding on?
    Only reading the half of Kenyes which you want to.

    What about the reducing spending in the good years....
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    There must be many Labour supporters who are silently despairing within.

    It's an awful feeling when you know you're holding a dud. I knew it from the word go with IDS, and they will have the same inner despair. It's too late to do anything about it, and they'll give it their best shot, but they won't win the General Election with him.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    There must be many Labour supporters who are silently despairing within.

    It's an awful feeling when you know you're holding a dud. I knew it from the word go with IDS, and they will have the same inner despair. It's too late to do anything about it, and they'll give it their best shot, but they won't win the General Election with him.

    IDS was trailing in the polls.

    Miliband, for all his faults (and I'm still exasperated with his speech peformance and foolish decision to "go noteless") is leading.

    Plus Miliband's policy platform is far superior to the IDS Tories.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Gadfly said:

    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    Never confuse sales with readership.
    Good point.

    I only ever read The Sun when I go to the greasy spoon, and there are 2-3 copies there which the customers share... Same in every cafe I've been to.

    Also at work, on building sites etc, people don't buy a copy each, they read each others
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    In thread headers like this, isn't there normally a hat tip to a poster who told everyone to get on a bet at 10/1 which is now 3/1?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,812

    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.

    There is nothing that Miliband can do or say that will make the Sun coverage of him any less hostile. He knows that come the GE he is going to be completely and mercilessly hammered by them. So why bother playing their game? The idea that he has made a mistake is laughable.

    Indeed. A new low for the PB Tories' dimwit wing this morning. Good to see bright Tories like Scrapheap distancing themselves from this.

    I am reminded of the words of a lost, lamented poster.

    The PB Tories are always wrong. And they never, ever learn.
    The PB Tories are always wrong.

    run that Indyref result by me again BaJ
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Oh IDS, I had forgotten all about him and his little wheeze.
    Self employed business owners are in for a surprise next year.....but don't tell them, it is a special surprise.
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.

    So what the Tories do then.
    Rubbish. Show me when the Conservatives have made the same level of attacks on the Labour press as Labour have done on the Murdoch press?

    Show me the attacks that Labour has made on the Times and the Sunday Times. It's the Sun that is the Labour target; just as the Guardian is the Tory target. And the BBC, of course.

    With this, as with so much else, I fear we will not agree.
    No, Murdoch's Labour's target. And it's not just the Sun: they went after the NOTW as well, and succeeded. Yet for some strange reason the Mirror was a different matter. I wonder why?

    You might find the people who made the biggest attacks on the BBC are Labour (the Gilligan / Kelly affair), and the BBC itself, when it shot itself in the foot with its Panorama madness wrt McAlpine.

    Show me where a standing ovation was given as a copy of the Guardian was ripped up on stage at Conservative party conference?

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/30/the-tony-ripped-up-labour

    No?

    We won't agree because you're being ridiculous.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,023
    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    He's done better than the people he took over from, though. Unemployment's nearly 500,000 down n the figure of May 2010.

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    isam said:

    In thread headers like this, isn't there normally a hat tip to a poster who told everyone to get on a bet at 10/1 which is now 3/1?

    Not if he's a leftie. Matter of principle.

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    BenM said:

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    Incredible, shows you have no understanding of how an economy works.
    Keynes famously said: sort out unemployment and the deficit will sort itself.

    He could have gone further - it is decent jobs that are needed to sort the deficit out. As Osborne is showing in spades.

    What, pray, do you haver to base your understanding on?
    Quick question, do you think lower taxes across the board would help to create more jobs?
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Sean_F
    " Unemployment's nearly 500,000 down n the figure of May 2010."
    That might help him get over the line.
    Unless of course a lot of those "employed" people find out what IDS has in store for them?
    ;-)
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Sean_F said:

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    He's done better than the people he took over from, though.
    Unemployment at 5.1% is it?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sean_F said:

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    He's done better than the people he took over from, though. Unemployment's nearly 500,000 down n the figure of May 2010.

    Tax receipts are doing ok - it's the spending half of the equation where he hasn't done enough.

    £26k benefits cap should be frozen for 5 years as a minimum - or cut £1k a year.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @nigel4england
    Down with taxes! Bring back serfdom!
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    BenM said:

    Anybody who seriously believes that Ed not doing the Sun's bidding on Help for Heroes is going to change anything is not very bright.

    The Sun will eviscerate him now, but they were going to do it anyway. There was only a downside for Ed in playing along.

    I think there will be blowback for the Sun in using a respected charity to attempt to score a cheap political point. More like they've scored a catastrophic own goal.

    Any PB Tory that thinks Ed has made a mistake here has simply ignored the lessons of the last few years.

    The Sun is about to dip below 2m sales a day. It is not the influence it once was.
    The Sun helped create HFH. Their promotion of it back in 2007 really helped it get off the ground and gain public support.

    Given the (hardly surprising) news yesterday, it is clear that the 'lessons of the last few years' is that Labour will mercilessly attack media that is against it, whilst ignoring the sins of the media that supports it.

    So what the Tories do then.
    Rubbish. Show me when the Conservatives have made the same level of attacks on the Labour press as Labour have done on the Murdoch press?

    Show me the attacks that Labour has made on the Times and the Sunday Times. It's the Sun that is the Labour target; just as the Guardian is the Tory target. And the BBC, of course.

    With this, as with so much else, I fear we will not agree.
    No, Murdoch's Labour's target. And it's not just the Sun: they went after the NOTW as well, and succeeded. Yet for some strange reason the Mirror was a different matter. I wonder why?

    You might find the people who made the biggest attacks on the BBC are Labour (the Gilligan / Kelly affair), and the BBC itself, when it shot itself in the foot with its Panorama madness wrt McAlpine.

    Show me where a standing ovation was given as a copy of the Guardian was ripped up on stage at Conservative party conference?

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/30/the-tony-ripped-up-labour

    No?

    We won't agree because you're being ridiculous.

    No, we won't agree because we do not have the same view. I find your belief that Labour has been more hostile to the BBC that the Tories laugh out loud hilarious. We see and hear things differently Josias.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Assuming Mr Carswell gets back in in a couple of weeks as a Kipper MP - then that will nuke the Wasted Vote line.

    That he's a bit of a one-off doesn't matter. Those who don't know better will see it as the evidence they need to justify a decision they'd made emotionally already - but hadn't implemented in reality.

    The Rotherham issues will play right into this - and if I was in LHQ - I'd be very worried about how to fight back against it. Name calling the Bloke Down The Pub [their quintessential appeal] just isn't working in WWCLand.

    A very good friend of mine is solid WWC [now ex Londoner] and is perfect Kipper fodder. He voted BNP in exasperation at immigration that was destroying his livelihood [builder], and upsetting his kids education [hardly anyone spoke English at their school].

    This was visceral stuff for him. He's not racist, he just sees immigration as a huge real and present danger to his ability to provide for his family.
    weejonnie said:

    Financier said:

    Today's Yougov shows 16% of Con's 2010 VI going to UKIP, plus 6% of LAB's and 11% of LD's. That would be over 4,000 votes plus the decline of the LDs and LAB's apparent abandonment of the WWC where according to the same poll most of UKIP's support comes, then a surprise is very possible. Can UKIP GOTV?

    One danger of the Labour tactic is that it highlights that 'A UKIP vote is a wasted vote' is no longer a fear among the electorate.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,023
    chestnut said:

    Smarmeron said:

    Having a private education turns you from being ordinary into something special?
    How very elitist of you all, Cameron and his cronies appear "ordinary" to me.

    There's nothing out of the ordinary in meeting someone with an expensive education if you live in Primrose Hill or Hampstead.

    It's massively out of the ordinary in most of the UK though.

    That's why Ed is out-of-touch in just the same way as Cameron is meant to be.


    There's not a lot of difference between private schools and the top-performing State schools.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    In thread headers like this, isn't there normally a hat tip to a poster who told everyone to get on a bet at 10/1 which is now 3/1?

    Not if he's a leftie. Matter of principle.

    A leftie???!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,023
    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    BenM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Loving the deficit obsession. What people are talking about on the doorstep is jobs and prospects and their kids. They aren't saying we should sacrifice all of that for "the deficit". And why is Osborne struggling with the deficit at the moment according to economists? Because tax receipts are nowhere near prediction. So get people working and they pay tax. Go after tax dodgers and they pay tax. Get the economy working for actual people as opposed to paper stats and people buy stuff, and in doing so they pay tax.

    So the deficit obsession in the media is the death rattle of an establishment desperately trying to keep people focused on austerity, on cuts, on doing without. So that the people at the top don't have to

    The deficit, however, is "jobs, prospects, and kids".
    Nope, it's the result of Bovine effluent emitter Osborne's failure on jobs, prospects and kids.
    He's done better than the people he took over from, though.
    Unemployment at 5.1% is it?
    I think it was just over 7% in May 2010.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Sean_F
    "There's not a lot of difference between private schools and the top-performing State schools. "
    There is when it comes to the "top" jobs?
    Or don't you read the papers?
This discussion has been closed.