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Biteback had generously agreed to give copy of the latest volume by Professors Colling Rallings and Michael Thrasher, called “British Electoral Facts 1832-2012″ as a PB competition prize.
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Similarly it was a Muslim on R5 that stated 'yes there is a problem within Muslim communities'
I want them to stop talking about it and act.
Oh, and 1st btw
I want them to stop talking about it and act.
Seriously, though, is there substantial evidence that the wider "Muslim community" (as if there were such a unique homogenous thing) knows what's going on? I say this having been part of the "Christian community" all of my life, and never having known anything about child abuse scandals that took place within churches until they became fully public - and there were quite a few of those. I'm not sure what it would have meant for me to "stop talking about it and act" when it became evidence when instances of abuse, which I'd never seen, were occurring. Naively I suppose I'd assume that the perpetrators of these crimes tend not to advertise what they're up to, except to others who are themselves fully complicit in the crimes.
I agree the rank and file individuals of these communities may not know but I would say the leaders/elders have a pretty good idea of suspects, especially of radicalisation. It's these people I want to act but it doesn't eliminate the need of the rank and file to be aware either. They can report up through their leaders their suspicions.
To take your example, if after all the revelations of child abuse within the church, you saw evidence of abuse, I'm sure you would have mentioned it to someone - hopefully not the local priest!
UKIP 14
How will the tie-break be broken?
My guess is C31/U14
Imagine it's similar to the culture that existed around Jimmy Saville at the BBC and other places. There'll be a spectrum from people that had no idea to a group of people that had suspicions to a group that knew something dodgy was going on but turned a blind eye. There must have been quite a lot of people in the last two groups who never said anything. I struggle to see how you can get a dozen people together from one community to be involved without mentioning it to more people who didn't want to get involved. Surely one of them should have said something?
UKIP 13
Con 36
Blue_rog said:
» show previous quotes
So Nick, so you could act positively on this rather than making jokes, how about campaigning for Muslim leaders to take a more active role in identifying suspects within their communities and handing the information to the police.
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Oh Blue_rog I don't think you'll get much change from Nick on this, good fellow though he is on other matters. His party, Labour, brought massive and uncontrolled immigration into this country as a deliberate policy to force multiculturalism onto the native population. There have been waves of immigration before in our history, but never on a scale promoted and let loose as by the Labour governments since 1997.
It's true that there were many muslims in this country before that date, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc, but before they were reinforced, so to speak, they were muted in their support of militant islam, although I do not doubt that it existed and in some quarters, passionately espoused.
We now have a situation of a state within a state and all that goes with that scenario.
If there was an inquiry into how this was covered up for years i think you'd find that it was pretty much going on in open sight and was common knowledge in the areas concerned. You might even find lots of relatives who'd complained about it to local MPs and councillors but were basically told to **** off and die.
So maybe we should asking some hard questions of our universities about what's going on within their communities. We all have a part to play in challenging the murderous Islamist ideology, wherever it manifests itself, not just Muslim leaders.
On Topic: 28 / 12
UKIP 12
UKIP 16
UKIP 17
"Seriously, though, is there substantial evidence that the wider "Muslim community" (as if there were such a unique homogenous thing) knows what's going on? I say this having been part of the "Christian community" all of my life, and never having known anything about child abuse scandals that took place within churches until they became fully public - and there were quite a few of those. I'm not sure what it would have meant for me to "stop talking about it and act" when it became evidence when instances of abuse, which I'd never seen, were occurring. Naively I suppose I'd assume that the perpetrators of these crimes tend not to advertise what they're up to, except to others who are themselves fully complicit in the crimes.
I agree the rank and file individuals of these communities may not know but I would say the leaders/elders have a pretty good idea of suspects, especially of radicalisation. It's these people I want to act but it doesn't eliminate the need of the rank and file to be aware either. They can report up through their leaders their suspicions.
To take your example, if after all the revelations of child abuse within the church, you saw evidence of abuse, I'm sure you would have mentioned it to someone - hopefully not the local priest!"
Since 7/7 quite a few islamist terror plots have been foiled - and a number of conspirators brought to trial and convicted. I'm pretty sure that that would not have been possible without tip-offs from people within the Muslim community.
Was anybody from the muslim community going to go into a police station at the time and say 'well actually that Nick Griffin bloke is right'....???
At the time when many of these acts were perpetrated, Labour were preaching multiculturalism from the rooftops to a wary and sceptical country. The last thing labour wanted was the heinous exploitation of hundreds of white girls along racial lines getting in the way of one of their flagship policies.
It's almost like we've forgotten the noughties. I lost count of the number of times I heard a labour politician presage a sentence with 'in a modern, multicultural society.....'
In such a climate nobody, christian, muslim, white or black was going to get listened to.
I believe, in the early 1990s, Germans were the nation where most new immigrants were coming from. New Labour got more immigration from the Indian subcontinent by getting rid of the primary purpose rule. It was a key part of their "sending out search parties" to get people to come here, in order to "rub the Right's nose in diversity". If your aim is "to make the UK truly multicultural", you're not going to get that from skilled white Germans.
The murderer with meat cleaver who was filmed ranting was from Romford... Too close to home for my liking
Damn that book looks amazing!
The people we should be asking hard questions of are the last labour government, under whom many of these acts were perpetrated.
An investigation may find it was they they that did more than most to ensure these practices went unpunished for so long.
Well, with due respect and all that, that was kind of my point about "evidence" - I know that many (particularly of this parish) entertain the theory that this was going on in open sight, within a parallel segregated community that is so cut off from the rest of British society that it was able to conceal the goings-on from the wider world - but do we have any evidence that this was the case beyond "thinking" that an enquiry would produce certain outcomes?
I'd agree with the way that Socrates puts it - there would be varying degrees of complicity, and as with any other group, reasons for not going public would include personal loyalty, fear of being ostracised by one's friends, fear of damage to the reputation of one's community, and so on. Certainly that's how it worked in the church (and, more recently, perhaps in certain music schools) - I'm not sure that something qualitiatively different was going on in the Muslim communites.
UKIP 14%
(No prize for coming second this time!)
UKIP 16
Con 32
I'd agree with the way that Socrates puts it - there would be varying degrees of complicity, and as with any other group, reasons for not going public would include personal loyalty, fear of being ostracised by one's friends, fear of damage to the reputation of one's community, and so on. Certainly that's how it worked in the church (and, more recently, perhaps in certain music schools) - I'm not sure that something qualitiatively different was going on in the Muslim communites.
Well like i say. If there was inquiry perhaps you'd find out.
I'd agree with the way that Socrates puts it - there would be varying degrees of complicity, and as with any other group, reasons for not going public would include personal loyalty, fear of being ostracised by one's friends, fear of damage to the reputation of one's community, and so on. Certainly that's how it worked in the church (and, more recently, perhaps in certain music schools) - I'm not sure that something qualitiatively different was going on in the Muslim communites.
But you're mostly comparing what went on in the 1970s, and was mainly restricted to certain institutions, with what has been going on in the last decade. I think most of society has long since taken child abuse, and one's duty to report it, much more seriously, while many in Muslim communities, particularly in nighttime economy sectors like taxis and takeaways, have continued to turn a blind eye.
UKIP 15
As for my "conspiracy theory", those were direct quotes from an adviser and a minister at the heart of New Labour. It doesn't count as a conspiracy theory when the people involved admit to it.
And remember universities are about ideas and free speech if they are about anything, so it isn't easy to go wading in heavy handed.
I was party to a situation a couple of years ago where a student who had been brought up in a fundamentalist christian household had converted to islam, and was (perhaps unsurprisingly) rather devout in that regard. His parents wanted the university 'to do something about it', but the student is an adult and converting isn't a crime. We had no evidence that he was doing anything wrong - he was still coming to lectures, handing in coursework, fully engaged etc. What were we supposed to have done - informed the authorities that one of our students had chosen to change religion.
But interestingly, I think I am right in saying that terrorism and child abuse are pretty well the only areas where there is a legal obligation to reports suspicions.
I could do with an updated copy.
"The strongest evidence for conspiracy comes from one of Labour’s own. Andrew Neather, a previously unheard-of speechwriter for Blair, Straw and Blunkett, popped up with an article in the Evening Standard in October 2009 which gave the game away.
Immigration, he wrote, ‘didn’t just happen; the deliberate policy of Ministers from late 2000…was to open up the UK to mass immigration’.
He was at the heart of policy in September 2001, drafting the landmark speech by the then Immigration Minister Barbara Roche, and he reported ‘coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn’t its main purpose - to rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date’.
That seemed, even to him, a manoeuvre too far.
The result is now plain for all to see. Even Blair’s favourite think tank, the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR), commented recently: ‘It is no exaggeration to say that immigration under New Labour has changed the face of the country.’"
http://www.migrationwatchuk.co.uk/pressArticle/83
Only 250,000 to 450,000 were resident your link said
The problem this time is that the Chinese authorities are effectively cutting out a very artificial trade in copper which has had increasingly deleterious effects. Unfortunately, if I understand a rather complicated article correctly, they are also going to remove a massive source of liquidity and credit built on the back of copper which might well "burst the China bubble". I would be grateful for the views of those more expert than I on the risks.
Although I am cautiously optimistic for the UK economy for the rest of the year and most of next the world remains highly unpredictable as the market gyrations of the last 24 hours has shown.
Spain, of course, is popular with pensioners. France, for second homes. Portugal too. Which country is Tenerife in , Portugal ? Spain ?
But that excludes a few countries, like, indeed, France.
I think you'll be lucky to scrape past A million.
Oh, you didn't mean the Scottish sub sample?
I understand that it is not easy. I do think though that universities could do more about not permitting themselves to be used as a base by those preaching violence and anti-semitism. If you're committed to diversity etc how do you justify allowing a group to forcibly segregate men and women in your premises, for instance? Would you allow neo-Nazi groups to hold meetings on your premises? Why then allow groups holding the same views to use your premises to spout their hate etc.
These issues need to be thought about quite carefully rather than simply being (and I'm not saying this is what you're doing) dismissed as, for instance, Malcolm Grant seemed to do when the report came out. Doing nothing is not an option nor is turning a blind eye to what is happening on your premises and in your institutions.
And the same applies to banks and TV stations and care homes and newspapers etc etc with regard to all the wrongdoing we have seen there.
As I've mentioned before, I had the depressing experience of asking the Home Office to provide funds for a Muslim group (akin to the Quakers) who wanted help to set up a fancy website promoting interfaith dialogue and a positive view of other religions: the local organiser said that every religion had embarrassing aspects and followers who sensible people disapproved of, but surely we should be learning from each others' strength.
The HO said that no funding was available since they didn't regard the group as a problem and unlikely to influence people who *were* a problem (presumably in the same way that funding the Quakers in the US wouldn't help influence fundamentalist groups who threaten to bomb abortion clinics). They might have been right about that but it seemed to me to send the wrong message - "we only give you money if you're a problem".
Con 34
UKIP 16
''If these people are so respected within their communities why can't they root out the minority of evil monsters and hand them over to the police.'
Maybe it's the size / scale of the problem.
Some polls in 2007/8.
'The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html
These results are from a poll of Muslim students:
– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-British-Muslims-getting-more-radical.html & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432075/Multiculturalism-drives-young-Muslims-shun-British-values.html
These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.
I'm intrigued to find out who the Muslim Quakers are. They sound wonderful.
Stop bringing up such racist facts.
Can it really be true that Europe has decided to tell the greens to do one and will now start pushing for shale gas?
http://www.france24.com/en/20130522-eu-leaders-face-shale-challenge
I hope so.
My source is the bubble chart about a third the way down:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/26/non-eu-immigration-uk-statistics
I'm quite happy to revise my "Germans" to "Germany".
'Stop bringing up racist facts'
More racist facts from Channel 4 & the Times.
-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.
And certainly no rebalancing.
UKIP 15
If searching the web continuously for Muslim child abuse and posting it on here year in year out to the exclusion of all other perpetrators has made you so blind then you have a real issue
As I understand it, most of the abuse in the Catholic Church did happen in the 1970s and before.
I've also posted links to abuse that happened in the Catholic Church and a case that happened in an Orthodox Jewish school, but that doesn't filter into your narrative, so you don't notice that.
Although there were reported acts of sexual abuse of minors in every year, the incidence of reported abuse increased by several orders of magnitude in the 1960s and 1970s. There was, for example, a more than sixfold increase in the number of reported acts of abuse of males aged 11 to 17 between the 1950s and the 1970s. After peaking in the 1970s, the number of incidents in the report decreased through the 1980s and 1990s even more sharply than the incidence rate had increased in the 1960s and 1970s.
http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/2013/03/28/0014102eac.gif
If we don't exploit our own shale, we will simply end up importing other's shale. Getting bloody fracking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Forces_Germany
Can't have as much of an effect as you're desperately trying to make out, and the numbers wound down quite rapidly at the end of the Cold War.
A controversial councillor admitted he only pleaded guilty to assaulting a cafe owner because he wanted to save his driving licence.
Former mayor of Barnet Brian Coleman, 51, admitted attacking Helen Michael after she tried to take a photograph of him parking in a restricted zone, after denying it for eight months.
UKIP 14
;-)
http://hurryupharry.org/2013/05/23/confronting-the-causes-of-religion-motivated-terrorism/
This particularly struck me -
"In every other aspect of our society, an ‘extremist’ is defined by both their actions and their personally held views; it is perfectly reasonable to label a racist a ‘racist’, whether or not they carry out illegal acts or promote law-breaking. For some reason, however, such rational logic isn’t generally applied when it comes to describing members of religious groups.
It seems that any Muslim who states that they support obeying the laws of the land is defined by default as ‘moderate’ without regard to whether he or she might hold some views that are very extreme and unpleasant indeed. However, a large section of our media and institutions appear to only label a Muslim as an ‘extremist’ if he or she breaks the law or incites others to do so. This is illogical and irrational.
The time has come for Muslim organisations, scholars, imams and lay people to stand up and state unequivocally that interpretations such as those outlined above are unacceptable and should never be promoted, here or abroad."
But do go and read the whole thing.
His driving licence means more to him now that he cant stuff us innocent taxpayers for tens of thousands of pounds worth of taxi bills.
I think the answer depends on when in June the poll is, will it be the end of June as usual, or mid June like May. Perhaps Martin can advise?
What an outstanding article:
It is a fact that far too many Muslim scholars promote, and far too many Muslims believe, interpretations of Islam that are anything but moderate– for example, that non-Muslims are morally and spiritually ‘inferior’ beings to Muslims or that in an ideal ‘Islamic’ society, the death penalty should apply for a Muslim who leaves Islam, for anyone who insults the Prophet, has sex outside of marriage or takes part in a homosexual act.
Whilst I’m not suggesting that any significant number of the Muslims holding such views would ever commit or even condone the events we saw in Woolwich, I am suggesting that if someone already believes such interpretations of Islam, it would be easier for them to believe that it’s morally acceptable to behead an off-duty soldier in the street.
THIS. This is the crux of the matter, right here.