For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Was the Cameron and May announcement re security fears designed to move the media from talking about UKIP/Carswell ? I am sure neither would use such fear to change the media focus, for party political reasons.
It was actually quite funny ! Raise level to "serious" and acknowledging there was no credible intelligence !
Wolf ! Wolf !
Is that what the previous government were doing, every time they raised the threat level?
I think Rotherham is an issue that may have longer term damage to Labour, Carswell came as a shock. If Dave has the balls to get Professor Jay to lead a nationwide inquiry on the subject that cwill be extremely unhelpful for Labour. Sadly I don't think Dave has the balls to order it and try and bring those savanges to justice.
Remember that we already have Tim Fortescue, a Tory whip, admitting that he helped Tory MPs with problems with "little boys".
I think that bunch of Public School boarders have more skeletons in the closet than are in my local graveyard.
It is the case that at some single-sex male boarding schools there is a certain amount of sexual activity between boys aged variously 13-18. Very little or none of this activity could remotely be called paedophile, and it would be very unusual to prosecute for any breach of age of consent rules. From an informal survey of a wide range of cases I would say that almost everyone involved reverts on leaving to the sexuality they would have had anyway.
It is also the case that many adult men join the Roman catholic priesthood as a lifelong career choice because of the opportunities it offers for the sexual abuse of children decades junior to them.
Please expand the point you were making.
And where did I mention single sex boarding schools? I must say you take a very casual attitude to lawbreaking. Do you work for South Yorkshire Police or Rotherham MBC, per chance?
Also, how do you know what sexuality someone would have had anyway? Is it tattooed on their backside at birth or something?
As for men joining the Roman Catholic priesthood for child abuse opportunities, how does that square with a vow of celibacy, a marriage rate in England of 10% (Anglican converts) and a rate of breaking vows of 0.3% in England and Wales?
They would be much off better working in a Public School, the BBC or any Labour controlled Northern city.
Considering I didn't even mention clergy in my original post, I take this as another pathetic attempt at distraction from the breaking storm about to engulf the British establishment.
Brilliant - she never ceases to amaze. For example ... "when we talk about victims we are talking about young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation, not necessarily victims of sexual exploitation. They are two very distinct things."
So it never really happened?
Just reading the conclusions and recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee on Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming...
... turns out that the findings of this weeks report were pretty much covered in the HAC report 18 months ago, one difference being an estimate of 600 victims in Rotherham rather than 1,400...
... So one question, why is this getting the attention it is now but didn't in 2013? Is it the higher number, is it the clarity of the report, is it the more lurid detail, is it a more febrile atmosphere?
Someone in Rotherham leaked internal minutes showing the council and police knew all about it before the Times.
If they hadn't done that then the Rotherham inquiry would never have happened and the political class would have been a step nearer to getting away with it.
Where is this?
The link i have saved is a scan of pages from the Times and i'm not sure what the score is on that and wouldn't to get them in stir but it's basically in the Times reports. It's the leak where the police representative gave the police's estimate of current victims at 300 for the local area at that time.
(nb there's like a four year churn where they're targeted when they are 11-13 and can break away without any help when they're a bit older so the total number over time is much higher than the live number)
It would be quite good if the Times stuck up an archive of those pages.
Brilliant - she never ceases to amaze. For example ... "when we talk about victims we are talking about young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation, not necessarily victims of sexual exploitation. They are two very distinct things."
So it never really happened?
Just reading the conclusions and recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee on Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming...
... turns out that the findings of this weeks report were pretty much covered in the HAC report 18 months ago, one difference being an estimate of 600 victims in Rotherham rather than 1,400...
... So one question, why is this getting the attention it is now but didn't in 2013? Is it the higher number, is it the clarity of the report, is it the more lurid detail, is it a more febrile atmosphere?
Someone in Rotherham leaked internal minutes showing the council and police knew all about it before the Times.
If they hadn't done that then the Rotherham inquiry would never have happened and the political class would have been a step nearer to getting away with it.
Where is this?
The link i have saved is a scan of pages from the Times and i'm not sure what the score is on that and wouldn't to get them in stir but it's basically in the Times reports. It's the leak where the police representative gave the police's estimate of current victims at 300 for the local area at that time.
(nb there's like a four year churn where they're targeted when they are 11-13 and can break away without any help when they're a bit older so the total number over time is much higher than the live number)
BTW it wasn't that I didn't believe you, just wanted to have a read myself!
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Its a shame that Carswell starts his new political career/life with a hefty dose of hipocrisy. Carswell, who even in his resignation speech made much of localism, can only stand in the by-election by being parachuted in to the vacancy by his new party's national committee - and at the expense of the long standing local candidate.
Its a shame that Carswell starts his new political career/life with a hefty dose of hipocrisy. Carswell, who even in his resignation speech made much of localism, can only stand in the by-election by being parachuted in to the vacancy by his new party's national committee - and at the expense of the long standing local candidate.
Hm, I think it would be hard to argue Carswell was parachuted in, given that he is (was) the sitting MP for the constituency!
Brilliant - she never ceases to amaze. For example ... "when we talk about victims we are talking about young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation, not necessarily victims of sexual exploitation. They are two very distinct things."
So it never really happened?
Just reading the conclusions and recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee on Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming...
... turns out that the findings of this weeks report were pretty much covered in the HAC report 18 months ago, one difference being an estimate of 600 victims in Rotherham rather than 1,400...
... So one question, why is this getting the attention it is now but didn't in 2013? Is it the higher number, is it the clarity of the report, is it the more lurid detail, is it a more febrile atmosphere?
Someone in Rotherham leaked internal minutes showing the council and police knew all about it before the Times.
If they hadn't done that then the Rotherham inquiry would never have happened and the political class would have been a step nearer to getting away with it.
Where is this?
The link i have saved is a scan of pages from the Times and i'm not sure what the score is on that and wouldn't to get them in stir but it's basically in the Times reports. It's the leak where the police representative gave the police's estimate of current victims at 300 for the local area at that time.
(nb there's like a four year churn where they're targeted when they are 11-13 and can break away without any help when they're a bit older so the total number over time is much higher than the live number)
BTW it wasn't that I didn't believe you, just wanted to have a read myself!
No problem. There is a link but i'm not sure about the scanning thing.
I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that Cameron is not happy with the status quo in the EU. Perhaps he should shout it louder, or perhaps he thinks that megaphone diplomacy will not help him in his dealings with other EU leaders.
Carswell essentially said that Cameron didn't care, and was just a career politician. There's some truth there I feel. Cameron isn't a brave leader - the really tough stuff that he's done has been Osborne's work. He knows this, and unfortunately the EU leaders know this.
Cameron needs to find the courage, and lead. If he does that he has the potential to shape the UK, if he doesn't he'll be a rather dull footnote.
If Labour win in 2015 the last sentence applies too - just Ed in the frame.
Cameron has supported ministers who have done brave things as in education and welfare. He has defended those policies in public. Being in coalition has its constraints. If you say you want something but know that your partners won't follow you, you'd be out on a limb. Cries of "splits in the coalition"!
Its a shame that Carswell starts his new political career/life with a hefty dose of hipocrisy. Carswell, who even in his resignation speech made much of localism, can only stand in the by-election by being parachuted in to the vacancy by his new party's national committee - and at the expense of the long standing local candidate.
Hm, I think it would be hard to argue Carswell was parachuted in, given that he is (was) the sitting MP for the constituency!
No point trying to use logic against the bile of a spurned party fanatic. Rest assured if this had been a defection to the Tories from another party Flightpath would certainly not be so critical. It is a measure of his hypocrisy.
Brilliant - she never ceases to amaze. For example ... "when we talk about victims we are talking about young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation, not necessarily victims of sexual exploitation. They are two very distinct things."
So it never really happened?
Just reading the conclusions and recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee on Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming...
... turns out that the findings of this weeks report were pretty much covered in the HAC report 18 months ago, one difference being an estimate of 600 victims in Rotherham rather than 1,400...
... So one question, why is this getting the attention it is now but didn't in 2013? Is it the higher number, is it the clarity of the report, is it the more lurid detail, is it a more febrile atmosphere?
Someone in Rotherham leaked internal minutes showing the council and police knew all about it before the Times.
If they hadn't done that then the Rotherham inquiry would never have happened and the political class would have been a step nearer to getting away with it.
Where is this?
The link i have saved is a scan of pages from the Times and i'm not sure what the score is on that and wouldn't to get them in stir but it's basically in the Times reports. It's the leak where the police representative gave the police's estimate of current victims at 300 for the local area at that time.
(nb there's like a four year churn where they're targeted when they are 11-13 and can break away without any help when they're a bit older so the total number over time is much higher than the live number)
It would be quite good if the Times stuck up an archive of those pages.
Thanks for link... I'm not sure it answers my original question: why has the Rotherham story got the traction it has now when much the same material has appeared before in HoC reports and Andrew Norfolks reporting? My guess it's the number 1,400 which caught the attention across the media and the coverage snowballed as details of the report emerged. Also, the report is much better written than the Home Affairs select committee's effort in 2013
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Its a shame that Carswell starts his new political career/life with a hefty dose of hipocrisy. Carswell, who even in his resignation speech made much of localism, can only stand in the by-election by being parachuted in to the vacancy by his new party's national committee - and at the expense of the long standing local candidate.
Hm, I think it would be hard to argue Carswell was parachuted in, given that he is (was) the sitting MP for the constituency!
No point trying to use logic against the bile of a spurned party fanatic. Rest assured if this had been a defection to the Tories from another party Flightpath would certainly not be so critical. It is a measure of his hypocrisy.
I would be pretty bummed if I were the PPC and the sitting MP decided to cross the floor to my party! Although given Carswell's stance, wouldn't UKIP have given him an easy ride in 2015?
I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that Cameron is not happy with the status quo in the EU. Perhaps he should shout it louder, or perhaps he thinks that megaphone diplomacy will not help him in his dealings with other EU leaders.
Cameron really needs to take a stance. He's put it off for too long, and irrespective of how it plays politically he simply has to make it clear to the other EU leaders that the UK isn't happy with the status quo.
Ed needs to agree to a referendum. A mutual, and minimal shopping list could then be agreed. Even the LDs want some change.
...
Cameron is only unhappy with the status quo for as long as it is an issue which threatens his chances of winning in 2015. No one seriously thinks that if it didn't have the potential to derail his aim to be PM after next May he would have any concerns about it at all.
His concern with the EU and its influence over the UK stretches exactly as far as its potential to cause him problems with his own MPs and the voters.
I would have thought that it was pretty obvious that Cameron is not happy with the status quo in the EU. Perhaps he should shout it louder, or perhaps he thinks that megaphone diplomacy will not help him in his dealings with other EU leaders.
Cameron is only unhappy with the status quo for as long as it is an issue which threatens his chances of winning in 2015. No one seriously thinks that if it didn't have the potential to derail his aim to be PM after next May he would have any concerns about it at all.
His concern with the EU and its influence over the UK stretches exactly as far as its potential to cause him problems with his own MPs and the voters.
Cameron's speeches on the subject have been clear and straight forward - they go back quite a few years and seem quite sensible. If your assumptions fantasies and prejudices keep you happy then I suppose we should be thankful for small mercies.
Spent most of the day at a small business. Some of the junior staff are enthusiastically and vocally Yes supporters. The directors (who make sure the wages get paid) are quietly in the No camp, although one of them reading the news at lunchtime did exclaim "Salmond really is an arse" at Eck's latest posturing.
Dinner this evening with another Yes supporter, this time a nominal Green. Once again rational debate seems beyond reach. She claimed she would rather see a woman premiere than an Etonian, but that Thatcher doesn't count as a woman...
Basically she seems to be voting for a dream, as are my other Yes supporting friends, the worry being none of them are supporting the same dream.
I still don't think I have any more information about how the vote might go, but I am more convinced than ever that whichever way the vote goes vast numbers of Scots are going to be very bitter and disappointed for decades to come.
Thanks for link... I'm not sure it answers my original question: why has the Rotherham story got the traction it has now when much the same material has appeared before in HoC reports and Andrew Norfolks reporting? My guess it's the number 1,400 which caught the attention across the media and the coverage snowballed as details of the report emerged. Also, the report is much better written than the Home Affairs select committee's effort in 2013
My understanding is the *separate* Rotherham report was forced by the leak of minutes showing the police and council - contrary to what they said before the leak - knew about the grooming gangs long before the Times reports and the current traction is the result of this separate report coming out.
If someone in Rochdale, Derby, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Peterborough etc had leaked the same kind of thing then there might be separate reports coming out from those places also being reported would be in the news.
No leak, no Rotherham report and the sum total of the political class' response would have been and gone already.
I've been a member of the same political party for over thirty years and have encountered defectors from other parties. People defect for all sorts of reasons - personality, principle, opportunism, a damascene conversion. I could honestly never imagine leaving the party of which I'm a member and immediately joining another.
Leaving the party I've been a member for so long - yes, I could envisage it.
When you are in a Party and especially so if you're an Activist (as I was), it's important to recognise that sometimes you have to sacrifice your ambitions (if you have any) for the greater good. That said, there are those who never "trust" defectors. In these times of falling memberships, that's not a luxury parties can afford. In truth, those who defect for reasons other than principle soon lose interest and fade away.
I'm a long way politically from Douglas Carswell but I applaud his decision to resign and fight a by-election. Victory will provide him (and UKIP) with the invaluable gift of legitimacy through the ballot box. It's not risk-free - if he were to lose (and I'm not lumping on at 1-4) he would be finished and UKIP would be dead in the water.
The Conservatives can afford a Labour win if they can't win themselves while Labour might see a Carswell win as the least worst option for them.
"Let us imagine that they genuinely believed that, were they to pursue and prosecute men guilty of the gang-rape of girls as young as 11, they would summon the wrath of Pakistani Britons living in Rotherham and beyond."
Erm no ... plod would believe (quite correctly) they would summon the wrath of the Guardian and BBC.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Mysogyny is the problem and any culture where rape victims are punished and shamed needs a long hard look in the mirror to see what it should be ashamed of.
The second article is very good. Thanks for pointing it out.
Thanks for link... I'm not sure it answers my original question: why has the Rotherham story got the traction it has now when much the same material has appeared before in HoC reports and Andrew Norfolks reporting? My guess it's the number 1,400 which caught the attention across the media and the coverage snowballed as details of the report emerged. Also, the report is much better written than the Home Affairs select committee's effort in 2013
My understanding is the *separate* Rotherham report was forced by the leak of minutes showing the police and council - contrary to what they said before the leak - knew about the grooming gangs long before the Times reports and the current traction is the result of this separate report coming out.
If someone in Rochdale, Derby, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Peterborough etc had leaked the same kind of thing then there might be separate reports coming out from those places also being reported would be in the news.
No leak, no Rotherham report and the sum total of the political class' response would have been and gone already.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
"Let us imagine that they genuinely believed that, were they to pursue and prosecute men guilty of the gang-rape of girls as young as 11, they would summon the wrath of Pakistani Britons living in Rotherham and beyond."
Erm no ... plod would believe (quite correctly) they would summon the wrath of the Guardian and BBC.
Quite. Sympathetic journalists would be hammering away at their keyboards venting fury at 'racist' policemen. It's an enlightening piece, that answers many questions.
"Let us imagine that they genuinely believed that, were they to pursue and prosecute men guilty of the gang-rape of girls as young as 11, they would summon the wrath of Pakistani Britons living in Rotherham and beyond."
Erm no ... plod would believe (quite correctly) they would summon the wrath of the Guardian and BBC.
Quite. Sympathetic journalists would be hammering away at their keyboards venting fury at 'racist' policemen. It's an enlightening piece, that answers many questions.
They still are over stop and search. Despite most victims of knife and gun crime in London being black, as the perpetrators are too it seems to be racist to try to stop it.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
How many female archbishops are there? Where do the women sit in synagogues?
You have spectacularly misunderstood the essence of Rotherham. Or rather, you choose not to see it.
Rotherham is a case of the "establishment" and its treatment of a so-called underclass. There may be additional elements of the attitude of males, in this case Asian males, towards women, and also a disinclination of the authorities to pursue cases where they believe there are issues of race, the so-called "PC gone mad" point.
You mentioned some of this earlier; don't take the easy, populist, and wrong route. I mean are we to tar all Jehovah's witnesses with the widescale crime of abducting their ill sons?
Paul Waugh has some tickets for Bringing Up The Bodies going spare.
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh 41s I hv 2 hot tickets to see BringUpTheBodies at Aldwych tmrw night but can't go. Tweet or DM me if you want em (cut price) #longshotiknow
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Rotherham is a case of the "establishment" and its treatment of a so-called underclass.
That's simply crackers. What you're saying is the equivalent of 'leave your front door open, and it's your own fault the telly was nicked, not the responsibility of the thief who took it'.
By turning a blind eye, and doing nothing they have failed in their role to provide the duty of care these children deserved, but they were not the ones bundling girls into taxis late at night and abusing them.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion.
No, that's why he said "certain interpretations".
"Within some British Asian circles, the West is considered degenerate and immoral. So it’s OK to take their girls and ruin them further." (Yasmin Alibhai Brown). "degenerate and immoral" looks quite like a religious judgment to me.
One factor not mentioned in this shocking rate of sex crimes, is the problem of gender imbalance in Asian communities. There are too few women. A direct result of sex selection. Have the consequences also spread into the UK?
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan official and eminent journalist, I.A. Rehman points out the high demographic impact of female infanticide, maternal mortality, honour killing and death resulting from violence against, and abuse of women. Edhi and Chhipa voluntary services report that newborn babies are still thrown into garbage dumps — and the majority of them are girl babies.
Also in India "Haryana, which borders Delhi, has long had a gender imbalance, and some reports say it has the worst sex ratio in India. According to the 2011 census, the number of females per 1000 males in Haryana stands at 879, far below the national average of 943 and the lowest among all twenty-eight states in India. The number falls to 836 in certain districts, and the state-wide figure is even more alarming in the 0-6 age group, where there are just 834 girls for every 1000 boys." "Another side effect of the gender imbalance is the rising incidence of rape in Haryana. Sangwan agrees, noting that the “low sex ratio fuels all kinds of violence against women. Boys are finding it difficult to find girls and that leads to an environment that is not conducive for women’s safety.” http://thediplomat.com/2013/08/india-where-are-all-the-girls/2/
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion.
No, that's why he said "certain interpretations".
"Within some British Asian circles, the West is considered degenerate and immoral. So it’s OK to take their girls and ruin them further." (Yasmin Alibhai Brown). "degenerate and immoral" looks quite like a religious judgment to me.
Well it looks nothing like religion to me. I see where 'culturally' Pakistani men struggle to get the free and easy sex with other Pakistani women that western men and women get together.
Whatever they may say it is an excuse for easy sex. With all that sex n drugs n rock and roll, western youth does not need an excuse its culture has evolved into the permissive society.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion.
No, that's why he said "certain interpretations".
"Within some British Asian circles, the West is considered degenerate and immoral. So it’s OK to take their girls and ruin them further." (Yasmin Alibhai Brown). "degenerate and immoral" looks quite like a religious judgment to me.
Well it looks nothing like religion to me. I see where 'culturally' Pakistani men struggle to get the free and easy sex with other Pakistani women that western men and women get together.
Whatever they may say it is an excuse for easy sex. With all that sex n drugs n rock and roll, western youth does not need an excuse its culture has evolved into the permissive society.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
How many female archbishops are there? Where do the women sit in synagogues?
You have spectacularly misunderstood the essence of Rotherham. Or rather, you choose not to see it.
Rotherham is a case of the "establishment" and its treatment of a so-called underclass. There may be additional elements of the attitude of males, in this case Asian males, towards women, and also a disinclination of the authorities to pursue cases where they believe there are issues of race, the so-called "PC gone mad" point.
You mentioned some of this earlier; don't take the easy, populist, and wrong route. I mean are we to tar all Jehovah's witnesses with the widescale crime of abducting their ill sons?
What a lot of bollocks. Do shut up.
No it is not - thats a pathetic response worthy of malcolmg
Something got lost in translation with that order. I've always thought that Whitehall expected their instructions to result in a few foot soldiers being sent on visible patrols across Hounslow Heath; meanwhile the local commander heard the words 'guard an airfield' and went into full Cold War mode, despatching what he'd use to protect a military base from marauding Russians i.e. tanks and all the kit.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
To a greater or lesser degree depending on the example, someone's religion surely plays a large part in their culture, so the existence of scandals in other cultures without as much of or any religious element does not necessarily indicate that with this cultural problem religion also played no part in it. I lack the knowledge or experience to argue the finer points of how much religion has influenced the culture that developed in this matter, if at all, but nor would I discount the possibility that it has done so merely because similar crimes have occurred within vastly different cultures. The exact same reasons may well apply across of all them, in the same proportion, but perhaps not.
At the least, I think the possibility is reasonable for people to raise, even if ultimately it is determined the same sorts of reasons as with other, less religiously impacted communities and their cultures.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
"It was only after a decade away from Skipton that I was finally able to garnerthe courage to return and testify against my abuser. When I first told my mother about the abuse I’d suffered, she was absolutely devastated. The root of her anger was clear: I was heaping unbound shame on to my family by trying to bring the perpetrator to justice. In trying to stop him from exploiting more children, I was ensuring my parents and my siblings would be ostracised. She begged me not to go to the police station."
This family isn't even criminals, but even they are taking part in a disgusting regressive culture. We were so foolish to import this culture from the more backwards parts of the world in the 1950s and 60s and we've been paying for it ever since. What's absurd is that we've added more immigration from the world's disaster zones under New Labour: Somalia, Pakistan (again), Nigeria, Iraq, etc. It was obviously a bad idea for anyone who doesn't fall under the ideological blindness of the "all cultures are created equal" myth.
Obviously. Because the best way to stop someone shooting down a plane is to have tanks around airports.
Quite common in days of yore. Op something or other, as I remember it (I'm sure @Y0kel would know). Scimitars and squaddies patrolling around LHR and LGW.
@TwistedFireStopper Depends what you think they are going to be shooting at the aircraft and at what range? Scorpion light tanks can move rapidly over fairly rough ground and are effective at a good distance against people with rocket launchers/machine guns. It was an over reaction of course, but like our raised threat level today, it looks good for the media.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Hear, hear. That inspirational, brave woman who wrote in the Guardian is correct. Her family and others with abused kids weren't worried about a few people cutting them off. They were worried about being ostracised by the bulk of the community. Meanwhile the men that got out of prison came back to the community and were accepted.
Spent most of the day at a small business. Some of the junior staff are enthusiastically and vocally Yes supporters. The directors (who make sure the wages get paid) are quietly in the No camp, although one of them reading the news at lunchtime did exclaim "Salmond really is an arse" at Eck's latest posturing.
Dinner this evening with another Yes supporter, this time a nominal Green. Once again rational debate seems beyond reach. She claimed she would rather see a woman premiere than an Etonian, but that Thatcher doesn't count as a woman...
Basically she seems to be voting for a dream, as are my other Yes supporting friends, the worry being none of them are supporting the same dream.
I still don't think I have any more information about how the vote might go, but I am more convinced than ever that whichever way the vote goes vast numbers of Scots are going to be very bitter and disappointed for decades to come.
I'd like to second the poster who said that you're very interesting when you aren't just quoting a press release etc. More please.
Cameron has supported ministers who have done brave things as in education and welfare. He has defended those policies in public. Being in coalition has its constraints. If you say you want something but know that your partners won't follow you, you'd be out on a limb. Cries of "splits in the coalition"!
As Mr Gove might say, "How do you define 'support'?"
Spent most of the day at a small business. Some of the junior staff are enthusiastically and vocally Yes supporters. The directors (who make sure the wages get paid) are quietly in the No camp, although one of them reading the news at lunchtime did exclaim "Salmond really is an arse" at Eck's latest posturing.
Dinner this evening with another Yes supporter, this time a nominal Green. Once again rational debate seems beyond reach. She claimed she would rather see a woman premiere than an Etonian, but that Thatcher doesn't count as a woman...
Basically she seems to be voting for a dream, as are my other Yes supporting friends, the worry being none of them are supporting the same dream.
I still don't think I have any more information about how the vote might go, but I am more convinced than ever that whichever way the vote goes vast numbers of Scots are going to be very bitter and disappointed for decades to come.
Welcome to the club. Which ever way the result goes, the name of Salmond will be cursed for generations to come.
If YES, then the truth of the lies, distortions and implied threats will waken a response that even having control of the (armed) police and justice system will not be able to deny.
If NO, then all those who "believed the dreams" will want an answer why he failed.
@TwistedFireStopper Depends what you think they are going to be shooting at the aircraft and at what range? Scorpion light tanks can move rapidly over fairly rough ground and are effective at a good distance against people with rocket launchers/machine guns. It was an over reaction of course, but like our raised threat level today, it looks good for the media.
If Sunil were here, he'd tell you a famous galactic senator did a quite similar thing, a long time ago. ;-)
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
lol. Take some of those Alzheimer pills.
THEY'RE ON THE MANTELPIECE
ARE YOU COLD? DO YOU WANT A TARTAN BLANKET??
WE'VE LEFT SOME SOFT FOOD FOR YOU IN THE FRIDGE
Sean you seem a nice enough bloke; witty, have an eye for a turn of phrase, and so forth. Of the two of you I would have kept tim and jettisoned you in a heartbeat but you can't have everything.
But you must understand that every time you insult* me rather than take issue with me, and you have done the former twice in response to my comments this late evening, the smile on my face widens.
lol. Is that it? He can't even claim he waited so long because he was preparing a complex and detailed statement etc etc
Just the usual copperplate bollocks, learn lessons, hold responsible, apples for everyone.
Bizarre. He really must have been paralysed by the downsides of losing brown votes versus losing white votes.
In that whole statement you'll note that he has a go at the (white) authorities, never condemning the people that did the abuse or the culture that allowed it to go on.
It's not bizarre. He is refusing to be a Jew criticising Muslims. Because large numbers of Muslims in this country are anti-Semitic, just as they are misogynistic.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
You can't even do pedantry right, OED is quite happy with "engrained". And, yes, misogyny is indeed engrained in the Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
You can't even do pedantry right, OED is quite happy with "engrained". And, yes, misogyny is indeed engrained in the Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
You may flounce.
I don't give a F&ck about pedantry.
And you know that misogyny is engrained in the pakistani-heritage muslim population because you have conducted the survey?
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
@Topping: SO himself said before he left that it was clear that there was a problem within the Muslim community with its attitude to women and non-Muslim women in particular.
There is clearly a problem within the Pakistani community in relation to its views of women: forced marriages, cousin marriages, honour killings, daughters being killed for the "crime" of being too Western. A lot of the community we have here comes from the poorer and more backward parts of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir, from parts of the world where gang rape is used as a punishment, where a woman can get beaten to death by her family in front of a courthouse with people watching and no-one turning a hair. It is hardly surprising with that sort of culture and some people teaching young men that white girls are prostitutes and that anyone who is a kuffir is fair game that what we have seen in Rotherham happens.
It does not mean that all Pakistani-heritage men here are like this nor that all Muslims are like this. But to ignore the role which culture and religion has in creating the environment in which men think they can do this is to fly in the face of reality.
It is to ignore the very real - and harrowing - testimony of those Pakistani-heritage girls and women who describe what goes on and who have been abandoned by the liberal left in favour of their violent and misogynistic menfolk.
If we do not describe a problem accurately, we have no hope of dealing with it.
The time has long since passed. Time for us to say things as they are; time for the good men within the Pakistani community to say things as they are (as, to be fair, some have done), no matter how embarrassing. Hard truths need to be spoken. The Freedlands of this world either cannot or won't. Only when it hits them personally will the penny drop.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
@TwistedFireStopper Depends what you think they are going to be shooting at the aircraft and at what range? Scorpion light tanks can move rapidly over fairly rough ground and are effective at a good distance against people with rocket launchers/machine guns. It was an over reaction of course, but like our raised threat level today, it looks good for the media.
Apparently, it was SAMs they were worried about. Personally, if i was a terrorist hell bent on shooting down a plane with some missiles, I'd go and sit in a field 10 miles away from East Mids, and pick one off at my leisure. I'd be long gone by the time a tank came looking for me. It was bollocks then, and it's bollocks now.
@TwistedFireStopper Depends what you think they are going to be shooting at the aircraft and at what range? Scorpion light tanks can move rapidly over fairly rough ground and are effective at a good distance against people with rocket launchers/machine guns. It was an over reaction of course, but like our raised threat level today, it looks good for the media.
Apparently, it was SAMs they were worried about. Personally, if i was a terrorist hell bent on shooting down a plane with some missiles, I'd go and sit in a field 10 miles away from East Mids, and pick one off at my leisure. I'd be long gone by the time a tank came looking for me. It was bollocks then, and it's bollocks now.
Perhaps they had intelligence that some group was planning an attack on a plane coming from Heathrow?
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
I don't exactly agree. Somehow, these rapists are influenced by a toxic combination of the worst aspects of our culture (complete obsession with sex) and the worst aspects of their culture (virulent racism, and contempt for women). Add into this toxic brew, contempt for the lower classes among people in authority and their desire to prioritise "good community relations" over protecting children.
UKIP has now evolved to the point at which we know approximately where it is likely to win seats in 2015, *IF* it wins any (East Anglia, Kent, Essex, Devon, etc.)...
...did we have such knowledge about the SDP in the run-up to 1983? Apart from holding some of the seats where Labour MPs had defected, was it expected to gain a handful of seats, and were they expected in any particular places? Was Charles Kennedy's victory a big surprise, or was Ross & Skye the Boston & Skegness of its day? I was 14 at the time so I was aware of the General Election happening but I wouldn't have known about some of the nuances.
@Topping: SO himself said before he left that it was clear that there was a problem within the Muslim community with its attitude to women and non-Muslim women in particular.
There is clearly a problem within the Pakistani community in relation to its views of women: forced marriages, cousin marriages, honour killings, daughters being killed for the "crime" of being too Western. A lot of the community we have here comes from the poorer and more backward parts of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir, from parts of the world where gang rape is used as a punishment, where a woman can get beaten to death by her family in front of a courthouse with people watching and no-one turning a hair. It is hardly surprising with that sort of culture and some people teaching young men that white girls are prostitutes and that anyone who is a kuffir is fair game that what we have seen in Rotherham happens.
It does not mean that all Pakistani-heritage men here are like this nor that all Muslims are like this. But to ignore the role which culture and religion has in creating the environment in which men think they can do this is to fly in the face of reality.
It is to ignore the very real - and harrowing - testimony of those Pakistani-heritage girls and women who describe what goes on and who have been abandoned by the liberal left in favour of their violent and misogynistic menfolk.
If we do not describe a problem accurately, we have no hope of dealing with it.
The time has long since passed. Time for us to say things as they are; time for the good men within the Pakistani community to say things as they are (as, to be fair, some have done), no matter how embarrassing. Hard truths need to be spoken. The Freedlands of this world either cannot or won't. Only when it hits them personally will the penny drop.
Yes I agree.
We also have a problem with left-handed shoplifters.
Now.
Not all left-handed people are shoplifters but a large number of them. I'm sorry I can't give you the percentage breakdown of exactly how many but if you look at Croydon Crown Court last week you will see that there was a case where five left-handed shoplifters were prosecuted successfully.
So we must be careful.
Actually I have a better question to ask you than the one I asked of @Ishmael_X and @Socrates.
Think about it and I look forward to your answer.
Of all the pakistani-heritage people you know, either as friends or associates or workmates, how many do you think are violently misogynistic?
On this one occasion on PB I am prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experiences as a significant contribution to this debate.
It is indeed a cultural problem within the British Pakistani community. I very much hope its not a cultural problem within other British ethnic communities. There seems no evidence of that at the moment. However we do see examples of some terrible sexual crimes and scandals in India. My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
I don't exactly agree. Somehow, these rapists are influenced by a toxic combination of the worst aspects of our culture (complete obsession with sex) and the worst aspects of their culture (virulent racism, and contempt for women). Add into this toxic brew, contempt for the lower classes among people in authority and their desire to prioritise "good community relations" over protecting children.
For balance the Guardian has also published one of the best pieces on this topic - by an abused Muslim woman, which pretty much kills the suggestion that this is not a cultural/religious problem inside the British Pakistani community.
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
You can't even do pedantry right, OED is quite happy with "engrained". And, yes, misogyny is indeed engrained in the Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
You may flounce.
I don't give a F&ck about pedantry.
And you know that misogyny is engrained in the pakistani-heritage muslim population because you have conducted the survey?
Do you have the tables to hand?
If you don't give a F&ck about pedantry, why write "engrained (sic)"? You aren't very good at this stuff, are you?
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
I am mildly left of centre (currently LibDem formerly New Labour) and I think that many on the left have been wrong on this in the past. In my book the rights of women to education and free expression trumps the rights of their culture to its traditions. There is nothing left wing about conservative patriarchal societies that oppress women and others.
@foxinsoxuk from this part of the left, it has always been our policy that women are our equals.......Our female members disagree, and as they are smarter than us, we get outvoted.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
I am mildly left of centre (currently LibDem formerly New Labour) and I think that many on the left have been wrong on this in the past. In my book the rights of women to education and free expression trumps the rights of their culture to its traditions. There is nothing left wing about conservative patriarchal societies that oppress women and others.
Indeed. I'm generally painted as a raging right-winger on here, but I don't see myself as that right-wing. I'm strongly supportive of equal rights for women and gay people etc.
Here's another fact: 88% of Pakistanis believe wives should obey their husbands:
@Topping: SO himself said before he left that it was clear that there was a problem within the Muslim community with its attitude to women and non-Muslim women in particular.
It does not mean that all Pakistani-heritage men here are like this nor that all Muslims are like this. But to ignore the role which culture and religion has in creating the environment in which men think they can do this is to fly in the face of reality.
It is to ignore the very real - and harrowing - testimony of those Pakistani-heritage girls and women who describe what goes on and who have been abandoned by the liberal left in favour of their violent and misogynistic menfolk.
If we do not describe a problem accurately, we have no hope of dealing with it.
The time has long since passed. Time for us to say things as they are; time for the good men within the Pakistani community to say things as they are (as, to be fair, some have done), no matter how embarrassing. Hard truths need to be spoken. The Freedlands of this world either cannot or won't. Only when it hits them personally will the penny drop.
Yes I agree.
We also have a problem with left-handed shoplifters.
Now.
Not all left-handed people are shoplifters but a large number of them. I'm sorry I can't give you the percentage breakdown of exactly how many but if you look at Croydon Crown Court last week you will see that there was a case where five left-handed shoplifters were prosecuted successfully.
So we must be careful.
Actually I have a better question to ask you than the one I asked of @Ishmael_X and @Socrates.
Think about it and I look forward to your answer.
Of all the pakistani-heritage people you know, either as friends or associates or workmates, how many do you think are violently misogynistic?
On this one occasion on PB I am prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experiences as a significant contribution to this debate.
Niquab and similar dress is very effective at covering bruises. Not being allowed out without accompanying male relative is another. That is my anecdote.
Incidentally, my Trust has started a campaign against FGM today, with a new policy and protocol of reporting all cases in a structured and organised way. Not before time!
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
You *can* blame it on religion if it's Christianity. So if someone brings up Islamist terrorists beheading people, the PC response will be " but many Christians oppose gay marriage" as if that's somehow morally equivalent.
UKIP has now evolved to the point at which we know approximately where it is likely to win seats in 2015, *IF* it wins any (East Anglia, Kent, Essex, Devon, etc.)...
...did we have such knowledge about the SDP in the run-up to 1983? Apart from holding some of the seats where Labour MPs had defected, was it expected to gain a handful of seats, and were they expected in any particular places? Was Charles Kennedy's victory a big surprise, or was Ross & Skye the Boston & Skegness of its day? I was 14 at the time so I was aware of the General Election happening but I wouldn't have known about some of the nuances.
I don't know if they saw it then, but I think that the alliance victories in 1983 mostly show a pattern that you can identify from either Liberal traditions (the Celtic fringe), or strong by-election results (London, Northern Cities)
Paddy in Yeovil stands out as an exception but I think the rest fir that pattern).
Er! Let me think about this "Crossing The Floor" business that has been mentioned.
My first thoughts were that this is not unknown. I believe Winston Churchill crossed the floor of the house 3 times without causing an election, and I wonder what happened to him. (Probably a reason very few politicians at that time, at Westminster, trusted him).
Secondly, Carswell has not crossed the floor to another existing parliamentary party. He has, for whatever reason, resigned his seat, forced an election which he hopes to win and return to Westminster as an MP for another party.
Tactically, if he was to win, that would mean that he would have precedence over Farage. Which could be interesting.
Well, the four men in a car, injected a little white girl of 13 with a lethal dose of herion and threw her out in a car park to die were sikhs, Birmingham about 13 years ago. I still remember the relief and smile of the BBC newsreader when could explain the girl was a prostitute and drug addict, out of control. The men got 18 months.
And there have been plenty of reports of terrible attacks on women in India.
So it is not just pakistanis. It is the whole continent.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
Have you interviewed every pakistani-heritage person alive?
Let's have the breakdown; I'm as interested as the next person about the stats.
Or is it actually bollocks?
The facts I was referring to were very clearly those in foxinsoxuk's post: he provided a link for God's sake.
To say that there are problems with violence and attitudes towards women in Pakistan (and Afghanistan "topped" that poll on account of, you know, bombs and airstrikes and so forth) is a long way from saying that such attitudes are engrained (loving that word) in a culture.
Trying to find more about that Thomson Reuters Foundation survey but it ain't happening at 11pm on a Friday night.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
I am mildly left of centre (currently LibDem formerly New Labour) and I think that many on the left have been wrong on this in the past. In my book the rights of women to education and free expression trumps the rights of their culture to its traditions. There is nothing left wing about conservative patriarchal societies that oppress women and others.
Indeed. I'm generally painted as a raging right-winger on here, but I don't see myself as that right-wing. I'm strongly supportive of equal rights for women and gay people etc.
Here's another fact: 88% of Pakistanis believe wives should obey their husbands:
To say that there are problems with violence and attitudes towards women in Pakistan (and Afghanistan "topped" that poll on account of, you know, bombs and airstrikes and so forth) is a long way from saying that such attitudes are engrained (loving that word) in a culture.
Trying to find more about that Thomson Reuters Foundation survey but it ain't happening at 11pm on a Friday night.
We're not saying there are "problems" in attitude towards women in Pakistan. We're saying that misogynistic views are highly widespread. The word endemic means "regularly found among particular people or in a certain area." That's clearly, unarguably the case.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
I am mildly left of centre (currently LibDem formerly New Labour) and I think that many on the left have been wrong on this in the past. In my book the rights of women to education and free expression trumps the rights of their culture to its traditions. There is nothing left wing about conservative patriarchal societies that oppress women and others.
Indeed. I'm generally painted as a raging right-winger on here, but I don't see myself as that right-wing. I'm strongly supportive of equal rights for women and gay people etc.
Here's another fact: 88% of Pakistanis believe wives should obey their husbands:
@Topping: SO himself said before he left that it was clear that there was a problem within the Muslim community with its attitude to women and non-Muslim women in particular.
It does not mean that all Pakistani-heritage men here are like this nor that all Muslims are like this. But to ignore the role which culture and religion has in creating the environment in which men think they can do this is to fly in the face of reality.
It is to ignore the very real - and harrowing - testimony of those Pakistani-heritage girls and women who describe what goes on and who have been abandoned by the liberal left in favour of their violent and misogynistic menfolk.
If we do not describe a problem accurately, we have no hope of dealing with it.
The time has long since passed. Time for us to say things as they are; time for the good men within the Pakistani community to say things as they are (as, to be fair, some have done), no matter how embarrassing. Hard truths need to be spoken. The Freedlands of this world either cannot or won't. Only when it hits them personally will the penny drop.
Yes I agree.
We also have a problem with left-handed shoplifters.
Now.
Not all left-handed people are shoplifters but a large number of them. I'm sorry I can't give you the percentage breakdown of exactly how many but if you look at Croydon Crown Court last week you will see that there was a case where five left-handed shoplifters were prosecuted successfully.
So we must be careful.
Actually I have a better question to ask you than the one I asked of @Ishmael_X and @Socrates.
Think about it and I look forward to your answer.
Of all the pakistani-heritage people you know, either as friends or associates or workmates, how many do you think are violently misogynistic?
On this one occasion on PB I am prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experiences as a significant contribution to this debate.
Niquab and similar dress is very effective at covering bruises. Not being allowed out without accompanying male relative is another. That is my anecdote.
Incidentally, my Trust has started a campaign against FGM today, with a new policy and protocol of reporting all cases in a structured and organised way. Not before time!
Delighted to hear about your Trust - sounds a worthwhile cause.
just out of interest (and you didn't answer the question I asked about the pakistani-heritage people YOU KNOW), how do you know the Niqab covers bruises because, you know, they're covered.
Are you seriously claiming that the misogyny inherent in "certain interpretations" of Islam is not part of the problem?
If you are, then I have no wish to argue with you, as you are clearly demented, and it would waste precious time in which you could be seeking help.
Come off it. Certain interpretations? A bunch of nasties making certain self serving interpretations is not an entire religion. Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes. A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
He is correct, and I'm a socialist. I grew up around just such a community. My mother taught in that community. When she had to do parents' evening door to door because the mothers weren't allowed out of the house and the fathers wouldn't acknowledge women in position of authority, that was misogyny. When a qualified woman (not her) was passed over for Headteacher in favour of a useless man because the Muslim governors wouldn't have a woman, that was misogyny. When she was criticised for teaching the girls that they had the chance to go on to higher education, because that would make them harder to find husbands for, that was misogyny. When the girls said that if they stayed at school the boys would find girls from Pakistan who hadn't been 'ruined' by learning they had rights, that was misogyny.
It wasn't one or two isolated cases, it was the norm - and it was internalised by a huge number of the women, not just the men.
UKIP has now evolved to the point at which we know approximately where it is likely to win seats in 2015, *IF* it wins any (East Anglia, Kent, Essex, Devon, etc.)...
...did we have such knowledge about the SDP in the run-up to 1983? Apart from holding some of the seats where Labour MPs had defected, was it expected to gain a handful of seats, and were they expected in any particular places? Was Charles Kennedy's victory a big surprise, or was Ross & Skye the Boston & Skegness of its day? I was 14 at the time so I was aware of the General Election happening but I wouldn't have known about some of the nuances.
I was a candidate (for Chelsea) so in the thick of it, though like all candidates I was preoccupied with my patch. My impression was that it was pretty chaotic, and nobody was really sure where the SDP had really taken hold. Pretty much like now, as you imply.
The big difference was that the Labour message was not just unpopular but incomprehensible, with nuances changing every day - I remember plaintively saying that I wished that HQ could decide what our defence policy was, so I could at least consider pretending to agree with it...
@Topping: SO himself said before he left that it was clear that there was a problem within the Muslim community with its attitude to women and non-Muslim women in particular.
Yes I agree.
We also have a problem with left-handed shoplifters.
Now.
So we must be careful.
Actually I have a better question to ask you than the one I asked of @Ishmael_X and @Socrates.
Think about it and I look forward to your answer.
Of all the pakistani-heritage people you know, either as friends or associates or workmates, how many do you think are violently misogynistic?
On this one occasion on PB I am prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experiences as a significant contribution to this debate.
It's a silly question. I do not know or associate or work with anyone who I know is violent I do know that my gay son was beaten up by an "Asian" man in London. Maybe he was homophobic but not misogynistic. Who knows?
I have not gone into the percentages game and won't. I will repeat what I have said above. Not all Pakistani-heritage men are rapists; not all Muslims. Indeed, probably a minority - though I have no way of knowing. Not all bankers are crooks, not all MPs either. Not all Catholic priests are child abusers etc etc. Those Muslims I do know (Iranian) are delightful people. And they are appalled by this stuff but - and this is anecdotal - they are pretty scathing about the sorts of backgrounds and attitudes of the Pakistani-heritage community here.
But even a minority can cause great harm - to the victims and to the reputation of the groups they come from. And we do no-one any favours by failing to describe what so many - from that group in particular, especially the women - know and say is true about attitudes which are all too prevalent.
One other point: there are the perpetrators. And then there are the ones who aren't but who know and don't speak up. Just like in the banking industry (about which I know a lot). And I make the point repeatedly to bankers that not doing bad things is not enough. If you know and don't speak up you're allowing the bad stuff to continue and the real reason for speaking up is because if you don't it's your good name and reputation that are sullied. The sh*t caused by the criminal in your ranks sticks to your shoe as well.
That is why it is so important for the good men within this community to speak up, to restore their good name, to squeeze out the criminals, to make it inconceivable for people to turn a blind eye, to realise that what is shaming is not "talking about it in public" but hiding it and being tarred with the same brush.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
STOP bringing facts to the conversation. Any bad thing connected to any non-white culture is always a "tiny minority". That's what the left-wing guide book says. And even then it down to marginalisation or economics. Anything that doesn't blame black or brown people.
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
I am mildly left of centre (currently LibDem formerly New Labour) and I think that many on the left have been wrong on this in the past. In my book the rights of women to education and free expression trumps the rights of their culture to its traditions. There is nothing left wing about conservative patriarchal societies that oppress women and others.
Indeed. I'm generally painted as a raging right-winger on here, but I don't see myself as that right-wing. I'm strongly supportive of equal rights for women and gay people etc.
Here's another fact: 88% of Pakistanis believe wives should obey their husbands:
Sean was being polite. It's not just 'certain interpretations'; it's the mainstream interpretation. The Rotherham abuse is just an extreme result of the misogyny which is deeply and broadly engrained within the poorer Pakistani-heritage muslim population.
Seriously? David Herdson? Do you write regular pieces for PB on elections and so forth? You should be ashamed of yourself. A disgusting comment. Misogyny is engrained (sic) in the pakistani-heritage muslim population?
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
I note you omitted a word from your quote (for which you didn't use quote marks).
I should be ashamed of myself, should I? Why? Because I've said something you disagree with? Because I've written something that might cause a silence at a polite dinner party? Why precisely is it 'disgusting'? Because it's not true or because you very much hope it's not true but that a great deal of evidence suggests it is.
I have a lot of experience with Pakistani-heritage muslims (Mirpuri primarily). I lived in Bradford district for 39 years until last year. I was a councillor on Bradford Council for four years. I was a governor at a school where around 95% of the intake came from precisely the kind of background we're talking about. I have played cricket with and against many Pakistani-Asians. I accept that anecdote is not a substitute for balanced data but when it is not an isolated example but a broad range of experiences accumulated over decades that is not mere anecdote.
Culture and religion in this case are so intertwined that it's pointless to try to separate them. In any case, both are used to reinforce the other and both are so central to identity that one could not be denied without denying the other.
Is there hope? Potentially. Up to mid-teens, attitudes (or at least, actions) are more westernised but the power of the madrassas and the continued importing of husbands and brides from Pakistan undoes what small steps might be made in schools. There has been a noticeable increase in the wearing of the full burka in the last five or so years, for example. I am deeply sceptical that this is an initiative that has come from women's groups, judging by the attitudes and opinions of the girls at the school I was involved with.
We cannot wish this problem away. We cannot pretend things are all right when they so clearly are not. (And for the record, just because one community has a particular problem, it doesn't mean that's the only community that has it, or that others don't have a prevalence in other problems). But the first step is acknowledging that there is a problem and that the criminality is an extreme outcome from that problem, it is nonetheless related to it.
Comments
'It was actually quite funny ! Raise level to "serious" and acknowledging there was no credible intelligence !'
Yes,M15,.M16,Police and Government have all got it wrong.
'Surbiton's view that a PM's comments about raising the threat level are quite funny really is grotesque'
Just more idiotic than his usual comments,imagine his whining if there was an incident and the threat level had not been increased.
Also, how do you know what sexuality someone would have had anyway? Is it tattooed on their backside at birth or something?
As for men joining the Roman Catholic priesthood for child abuse opportunities, how does that square with a vow of celibacy, a marriage rate in England of 10% (Anglican converts) and a rate of breaking vows of 0.3% in England and Wales?
They would be much off better working in a Public School, the BBC or any Labour controlled Northern city.
Considering I didn't even mention clergy in my original post, I take this as another pathetic attempt at distraction from the breaking storm about to engulf the British establishment.
The link i have saved is a scan of pages from the Times and i'm not sure what the score is on that and wouldn't to get them in stir but it's basically in the Times reports. It's the leak where the police representative gave the police's estimate of current victims at 300 for the local area at that time.
(nb there's like a four year churn where they're targeted when they are 11-13 and can break away without any help when they're a bit older so the total number over time is much higher than the live number)
It would be quite good if the Times stuck up an archive of those pages.
They're good in a way because they show how PC twists everything round when it is contradicted by reality.
Carswell, who even in his resignation speech made much of localism, can only stand in the by-election by being parachuted in to the vacancy by his new party's national committee - and at the expense of the long standing local candidate.
My question is why, if we see these scandals in India and in the Catholic Church and indeed in the British entertainment industry, why do you suggest that these crimes are anything to do with these Pakistanis' religion?
Oh dear, just read the article - what a total prick.
Spent most of the day at a small business. Some of the junior staff are enthusiastically and vocally Yes supporters. The directors (who make sure the wages get paid) are quietly in the No camp, although one of them reading the news at lunchtime did exclaim "Salmond really is an arse" at Eck's latest posturing.
Dinner this evening with another Yes supporter, this time a nominal Green. Once again rational debate seems beyond reach. She claimed she would rather see a woman premiere than an Etonian, but that Thatcher doesn't count as a woman...
Basically she seems to be voting for a dream, as are my other Yes supporting friends, the worry being none of them are supporting the same dream.
I still don't think I have any more information about how the vote might go, but I am more convinced than ever that whichever way the vote goes vast numbers of Scots are going to be very bitter and disappointed for decades to come.
If someone in Rochdale, Derby, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Peterborough etc had leaked the same kind of thing then there might be separate reports coming out from those places also being reported would be in the news.
No leak, no Rotherham report and the sum total of the political class' response would have been and gone already.
I've been a member of the same political party for over thirty years and have encountered defectors from other parties. People defect for all sorts of reasons - personality, principle, opportunism, a damascene conversion. I could honestly never imagine leaving the party of which I'm a member and immediately joining another.
Leaving the party I've been a member for so long - yes, I could envisage it.
When you are in a Party and especially so if you're an Activist (as I was), it's important to recognise that sometimes you have to sacrifice your ambitions (if you have any) for the greater good. That said, there are those who never "trust" defectors. In these times of falling memberships, that's not a luxury parties can afford. In truth, those who defect for reasons other than principle soon lose interest and fade away.
I'm a long way politically from Douglas Carswell but I applaud his decision to resign and fight a by-election. Victory will provide him (and UKIP) with the invaluable gift of legitimacy through the ballot box. It's not risk-free - if he were to lose (and I'm not lumping on at 1-4) he would be finished and UKIP would be dead in the water.
The Conservatives can afford a Labour win if they can't win themselves while Labour might see a Carswell win as the least worst option for them.
Ah. I have it. Let's start by applying the law.
From the Freedland article
"Let us imagine that they genuinely believed that, were they to pursue and prosecute men guilty of the gang-rape of girls as young as 11, they would summon the wrath of Pakistani Britons living in Rotherham and beyond."
Erm no ... plod would believe (quite correctly) they would summon the wrath of the Guardian and BBC.
The second article is very good. Thanks for pointing it out.
How about this for bravery too?
http://echoingscreams.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
Her twitter feed is an eye opener! Astonishing that so many defend ISIL and threaten her.
Certain interpretations of Hinduism place restrictions on women - that does not make Hindu men driven to commit terrible rapes any more than Pakistani men. Clearly the vast majority of Hindu and Muslim men do not commit rapes.
A religion may be stupid - but that does not make that religion (lets say ultra orthodox Judaism) the reason or excuse for people being culturally backward.
When one reads some of your spittle infested rants I think its you who need help - you've just gone overboard again.
You have spectacularly misunderstood the essence of Rotherham. Or rather, you choose not to see it.
Rotherham is a case of the "establishment" and its treatment of a so-called underclass. There may be additional elements of the attitude of males, in this case Asian males, towards women, and also a disinclination of the authorities to pursue cases where they believe there are issues of race, the so-called "PC gone mad" point.
You mentioned some of this earlier; don't take the easy, populist, and wrong route. I mean are we to tar all Jehovah's witnesses with the widescale crime of abducting their ill sons?
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh 41s
I hv 2 hot tickets to see BringUpTheBodies at Aldwych tmrw night but can't go. Tweet or DM me if you want em (cut price) #longshotiknow
By turning a blind eye, and doing nothing they have failed in their role to provide the duty of care these children deserved, but they were not the ones bundling girls into taxis late at night and abusing them.
"Within some British Asian circles, the West is considered degenerate and immoral. So it’s OK to take their girls and ruin them further." (Yasmin Alibhai Brown). "degenerate and immoral" looks quite like a religious judgment to me.
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan official and eminent journalist, I.A. Rehman points out the high demographic impact of female infanticide, maternal mortality, honour killing and death resulting from violence against, and abuse of women. Edhi and Chhipa voluntary services report that newborn babies are still thrown into garbage dumps — and the majority of them are girl babies.
Also in India "Haryana, which borders Delhi, has long had a gender imbalance, and some reports say it has the worst sex ratio in India. According to the 2011 census, the number of females per 1000 males in Haryana stands at 879, far below the national average of 943 and the lowest among all twenty-eight states in India. The number falls to 836 in certain districts, and the state-wide figure is even more alarming in the 0-6 age group, where there are just 834 girls for every 1000 boys."
"Another side effect of the gender imbalance is the rising incidence of rape in Haryana. Sangwan agrees, noting that the “low sex ratio fuels all kinds of violence against women. Boys are finding it difficult to find girls and that leads to an environment that is not conducive for women’s safety.”
http://thediplomat.com/2013/08/india-where-are-all-the-girls/2/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2747677.stm
Whatever they may say it is an excuse for easy sex. With all that sex n drugs n rock and roll, western youth does not need an excuse its culture has evolved into the permissive society.
It would have been better for Blair to have listened to the protesters rather than Alistair Campbell.
At the least, I think the possibility is reasonable for people to raise, even if ultimately it is determined the same sorts of reasons as with other, less religiously impacted communities and their cultures.
I can see why @SouthamObserver left and I'm as right wing as they come.
You may apologise.
'George Galloway 'badly bruised' in street attack'
http://tinyurl.com/llcdopm
This quote is staggering:
"It was only after a decade away from Skipton that I was finally able to garnerthe courage to return and testify against my abuser. When I first told my mother about the abuse I’d suffered, she was absolutely devastated. The root of her anger was clear: I was heaping unbound shame on to my family by trying to bring the perpetrator to justice. In trying to stop him from exploiting more children, I was ensuring my parents and my siblings would be ostracised. She begged me not to go to the police station."
This family isn't even criminals, but even they are taking part in a disgusting regressive culture. We were so foolish to import this culture from the more backwards parts of the world in the 1950s and 60s and we've been paying for it ever since. What's absurd is that we've added more immigration from the world's disaster zones under New Labour: Somalia, Pakistan (again), Nigeria, Iraq, etc. It was obviously a bad idea for anyone who doesn't fall under the ideological blindness of the "all cultures are created equal" myth.
Great fun in its day. Seems is still the case.
Reassurance, dear boy, reassurance.
Depends what you think they are going to be shooting at the aircraft and at what range?
Scorpion light tanks can move rapidly over fairly rough ground and are effective at a good distance against people with rocket launchers/machine guns.
It was an over reaction of course, but like our raised threat level today, it looks good for the media.
If YES, then the truth of the lies, distortions and implied threats will waken a response that even having control of the (armed) police and justice system will not be able to deny.
If NO, then all those who "believed the dreams" will want an answer why he failed.
But you must understand that every time you insult* me rather than take issue with me, and you have done the former twice in response to my comments this late evening, the smile on my face widens.
Must do better.
*such as you are able, within your limited range.
It's not bizarre. He is refusing to be a Jew criticising Muslims. Because large numbers of Muslims in this country are anti-Semitic, just as they are misogynistic.
You may flounce.
When only 15% feel that domestic violence is never right then it is reasonable to say that Pakistani men are endemically mysogynistic. Ignoring facts does not make them go away.
http://www.awaregirls.org/attitudes-towards-violence-against-women-in-pakistan/
I fear Sunil may have picked up a copy of "Dune" and we will not see much of him till sometime after Heretics/Chapterhouse.
And you know that misogyny is engrained in the pakistani-heritage muslim population because you have conducted the survey?
Do you have the tables to hand?
(Unless of course you are blaming it on religion. If you are blaming it on religion then it's not the religion, it's culture.)
There is clearly a problem within the Pakistani community in relation to its views of women: forced marriages, cousin marriages, honour killings, daughters being killed for the "crime" of being too Western. A lot of the community we have here comes from the poorer and more backward parts of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir, from parts of the world where gang rape is used as a punishment, where a woman can get beaten to death by her family in front of a courthouse with people watching and no-one turning a hair. It is hardly surprising with that sort of culture and some people teaching young men that white girls are prostitutes and that anyone who is a kuffir is fair game that what we have seen in Rotherham happens.
It does not mean that all Pakistani-heritage men here are like this nor that all Muslims are like this. But to ignore the role which culture and religion has in creating the environment in which men think they can do this is to fly in the face of reality.
It is to ignore the very real - and harrowing - testimony of those Pakistani-heritage girls and women who describe what goes on and who have been abandoned by the liberal left in favour of their violent and misogynistic menfolk.
If we do not describe a problem accurately, we have no hope of dealing with it.
The time has long since passed. Time for us to say things as they are; time for the good men within the Pakistani community to say things as they are (as, to be fair, some have done), no matter how embarrassing. Hard truths need to be spoken. The Freedlands of this world either cannot or won't. Only when it hits them personally will the penny drop.
You know the "facts" of the matter how exactly?
Have you interviewed every pakistani-heritage person alive?
Let's have the breakdown; I'm as interested as the next person about the stats.
Or is it actually bollocks?
It was bollocks then, and it's bollocks now.
...did we have such knowledge about the SDP in the run-up to 1983? Apart from holding some of the seats where Labour MPs had defected, was it expected to gain a handful of seats, and were they expected in any particular places? Was Charles Kennedy's victory a big surprise, or was Ross & Skye the Boston & Skegness of its day? I was 14 at the time so I was aware of the General Election happening but I wouldn't have known about some of the nuances.
Yes, but a gesture is worth a thousand lines of political blurb.
Gesture politics wins everytime. ;-)
We also have a problem with left-handed shoplifters.
Now.
Not all left-handed people are shoplifters but a large number of them. I'm sorry I can't give you the percentage breakdown of exactly how many but if you look at Croydon Crown Court last week you will see that there was a case where five left-handed shoplifters were prosecuted successfully.
So we must be careful.
Actually I have a better question to ask you than the one I asked of @Ishmael_X and @Socrates.
Think about it and I look forward to your answer.
Of all the pakistani-heritage people you know, either as friends or associates or workmates, how many do you think are violently misogynistic?
On this one occasion on PB I am prepared to take your own personal anecdotal experiences as a significant contribution to this debate.
For tables see foxinsox's link.
x.
from this part of the left, it has always been our policy that women are our equals.......Our female members disagree, and as they are smarter than us, we get outvoted.
Here's another fact: 88% of Pakistanis believe wives should obey their husbands:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-women-in-society/
Incidentally, my Trust has started a campaign against FGM today, with a new policy and protocol of reporting all cases in a structured and organised way. Not before time!
Paddy in Yeovil stands out as an exception but I think the rest fir that pattern).
My first thoughts were that this is not unknown. I believe Winston Churchill crossed the floor of the house 3 times without causing an election, and I wonder what happened to him. (Probably a reason very few politicians at that time, at Westminster, trusted him).
Secondly, Carswell has not crossed the floor to another existing parliamentary party. He has, for whatever reason, resigned his seat, forced an election which he hopes to win and return to Westminster as an MP for another party.
Tactically, if he was to win, that would mean that he would have precedence over Farage. Which could be interesting.
And there have been plenty of reports of terrible attacks on women in India.
So it is not just pakistanis. It is the whole continent.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432075/Multiculturalism-drives-young-Muslims-shun-British-values.html
Trying to find more about that Thomson Reuters Foundation survey but it ain't happening at 11pm on a Friday night.
just out of interest (and you didn't answer the question I asked about the pakistani-heritage people YOU KNOW), how do you know the Niqab covers bruises because, you know, they're covered.
It wasn't one or two isolated cases, it was the norm - and it was internalised by a huge number of the women, not just the men.
The big difference was that the Labour message was not just unpopular but incomprehensible, with nuances changing every day - I remember plaintively saying that I wished that HQ could decide what our defence policy was, so I could at least consider pretending to agree with it...
I have not gone into the percentages game and won't. I will repeat what I have said above. Not all Pakistani-heritage men are rapists; not all Muslims. Indeed, probably a minority - though I have no way of knowing. Not all bankers are crooks, not all MPs either. Not all Catholic priests are child abusers etc etc. Those Muslims I do know (Iranian) are delightful people. And they are appalled by this stuff but - and this is anecdotal - they are pretty scathing about the sorts of backgrounds and attitudes of the Pakistani-heritage community here.
But even a minority can cause great harm - to the victims and to the reputation of the groups they come from. And we do no-one any favours by failing to describe what so many - from that group in particular, especially the women - know and say is true about attitudes which are all too prevalent.
One other point: there are the perpetrators. And then there are the ones who aren't but who know and don't speak up. Just like in the banking industry (about which I know a lot). And I make the point repeatedly to bankers that not doing bad things is not enough. If you know and don't speak up you're allowing the bad stuff to continue and the real reason for speaking up is because if you don't it's your good name and reputation that are sullied. The sh*t caused by the criminal in your ranks sticks to your shoe as well.
That is why it is so important for the good men within this community to speak up, to restore their good name, to squeeze out the criminals, to make it inconceivable for people to turn a blind eye, to realise that what is shaming is not "talking about it in public" but hiding it and being tarred with the same brush.
I should be ashamed of myself, should I? Why? Because I've said something you disagree with? Because I've written something that might cause a silence at a polite dinner party? Why precisely is it 'disgusting'? Because it's not true or because you very much hope it's not true but that a great deal of evidence suggests it is.
I have a lot of experience with Pakistani-heritage muslims (Mirpuri primarily). I lived in Bradford district for 39 years until last year. I was a councillor on Bradford Council for four years. I was a governor at a school where around 95% of the intake came from precisely the kind of background we're talking about. I have played cricket with and against many Pakistani-Asians. I accept that anecdote is not a substitute for balanced data but when it is not an isolated example but a broad range of experiences accumulated over decades that is not mere anecdote.
Culture and religion in this case are so intertwined that it's pointless to try to separate them. In any case, both are used to reinforce the other and both are so central to identity that one could not be denied without denying the other.
Is there hope? Potentially. Up to mid-teens, attitudes (or at least, actions) are more westernised but the power of the madrassas and the continued importing of husbands and brides from Pakistan undoes what small steps might be made in schools. There has been a noticeable increase in the wearing of the full burka in the last five or so years, for example. I am deeply sceptical that this is an initiative that has come from women's groups, judging by the attitudes and opinions of the girls at the school I was involved with.
We cannot wish this problem away. We cannot pretend things are all right when they so clearly are not. (And for the record, just because one community has a particular problem, it doesn't mean that's the only community that has it, or that others don't have a prevalence in other problems). But the first step is acknowledging that there is a problem and that the criminality is an extreme outcome from that problem, it is nonetheless related to it.