But even on reflection, he wasn't that bad overall, it was just the way he handled the currency question. So, so bad. so that effectively you are voting for independence without knowing exactly what it would entail.
It's almost as if you vote for independence and then negotiate the deal. That's unwise at best.
In many ways a vote for independence is a leap of faith. I know this. There are so many things that are only going to be agreed after a yes vote, and so many things that are up in the air that nobody really knows what it would entail.
Is it unwise? Not necessarily. I think Scotland has plenty of sound foundations from a social, economic and structural/political footing to see that we can shape an independent nation.
As the song I'm currently listening to says: Hey ho, Let's fu*king Go!
Full speed ahead and damn the torpedos? If it was me I'd like some clarity on what exactly I'm voting for.
My guess would be that Salmond et al dliberately left it vague - the currency for example - because if it was known you couldn't use the pound and how much debt you'd assume it would make the vote less about the emotional idea of Scottish independence and more about the rational evaluation of the financial cost involved in doing so.
You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs...
One thing is certain, there will be a period on relative instability, and likely as not some people will lose out financially. Only a fool would say otherwise. But building a nation is a loftier goal than lining one's own pockets.
You are talking to someone who ran to America to make more money , do not expect him to be thinking of anything other than filling his pockets.
Who? Andrew Carneige?
You would know all about silver spoons and being handed wealth, we know how you would vote.
Andrew Carneige definitely wasn't handed wealth (and neither have I been - my inheritance has been put into a charitable trust for me to give away)
But do tell me: how would I vote?
You would vote NO to continue the establishment and elite keeping all the power and money that you are a part of. Rather than a fair society you would prefer you and your chums keep the money and then you can use your largesse to decide which of the poor deserve saving , rather than having a fair and just society to start with. Means you can discuss and compare which poor souls you have saved over the champers.
you just need toi accept it. Salmond failed. Salmond is an overblown windbag and was found out. Why he might even be a relation of Neil Kinnock... the welsh windbag.
The Yes campaign was Toast months ago . The pigeons have now eaten the last of the burnt crumbs and the only thing left of the Yes campaign is pigeon droppings .
Pigeon droppings, cuckoo crap, tit turds and malcolmg.
By contrast, convincing the Scottish electorate to break a union of more than three centuries is more likely to succeed if it’s not seen as a dangerous leap in the dark. To that end, Yes is going to have to find more credible answers to the currency questions, and whether Scotland would be a member of the EU (and on what terms); questions which are interlinked. Better together is likely to make a great deal of the wishful thinking on both matters; that everything will be all right and everyone else will agree to the blueprint’s assertions.
Again, No can win simply by creating enough concern as to the risks those unanswered questions contain. The Australian referendum on whether to declare a republic was lost in no small part not because Australians wanted to retain the Queen as head of state but because the specific alternative was seen as worse.
That was written eight months ago. Yes has completely brushed off any suggestion it would be an issue. The consequences hit home this week and will prove terminal.
You would know all about silver spoons and being handed wealth, we know how you would vote.
Andrew Carneige definitely wasn't handed wealth (and neither have I been - my inheritance has been put into a charitable trust for me to give away)
But do tell me: how would I vote?
You would vote NO to continue the establishment and elite keeping all the power and money that you are a part of. Rather than a fair society you would prefer you and your chums keep the money and then you can use your largesse to decide which of the poor deserve saving , rather than having a fair and just society to start with. Means you can discuss and compare which poor souls you have saved over the champers.
Shame how wrong you can be when you base life on stereotypes.
I don't have a vote, but my preference would be for a fully federal system or, failing that, for the Scots to have independence if they want it.
As for your other assumptions, just remember that we are all trustees, not owners, of the world that we live in.
I'm a sort of neutral in the Indy debate; I can fully understand the wish for independence - it would be exciting, even exhilarating in the early stages, but a part of me would be sorry to see them go. They add something to the gaiety of the nation; even malcolmg at his most curmudgeonly.
But for the more cautious Scots, the currency and pensions issue probably needs an answer. Relying on the good sense or good wishes of your ex-partners isn't a safe answer. You can't rely on the heart beating the head, even though you may wish it. You don't need a cast-iron economic plan but it has to be independent of other nations bending to your will.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
I fear some wishful thinking is involved. That said, since there was a time not so long ago when he had zero credibility, it is possible he has made some gains. However, the fact he lags George Osborne, of all people, on the question of economic competence tells you all you really need to know about how hated and despised he is by the public.
Darling would undoubtedly be a much more formidable presence than Balls as Shadow Chancellor, and would probably go some way to neutralise that 'behind on economic competence' statistic that still dogs the Labour party (and, coupled to Miliband's appalling personal ratings, is the reason why it remains entirely possible that they will come a poor second again next year). Whether Darling would want to return to frontline Westminster politics after his thoroughly miserable experience under Brown, his supposed best friend, is another question entirely.
Is there any possibility that in light of his performance for Better Together he might be offered a seat in the Scottish parliament and the leadership of the Scottish Labour party? Considering the makeweights, total incompetents and general no-hopers who have occupied (disgraced) that office since the death of Donald Dewar, he would certainly be an asset to Labour there - a serious politician with serious experience of tough politics. The one thing to say against it is it's difficult to see how he could hope to heal the fissures that are clearly opening up in Scottish society over the referendum, having led one side of the campaign.
Alarmingly for the First Minister, 15 per cent of Scots who backed the SNP in the 2011 Holyrood election would be more likely to vote Yes in the referendum if Miss Sturgeon was the leader. A staggering 45 per cent of independence supporters now believe Miss Sturgeon should represent the Yes camp in the BBC debate on August 25.
This would be very interesting, if the Ego would permit an underling to represent the Yes side, however, given Ms. Sturgeon's way of debating is to witter on Ad Nauseum about the truth on page whatever of the White Paper, never allowing an opponent/interviewer a chance to get a syllable in to the "conversation", until her listeners die of boredom, I can't see how it is going to be riveting watching.
You were rather rude about my comments on St. Helena airport the other day.
If the airport has not been "over-spec'ed" can you explain why the airport designs were changed in October 2013 (mid construction) so that it was capable of handling Lockhead C-130 Hercules.
Additionally, it's about 800 miles further south than Wideawake, increasing the effective range of airborne maritime patrols
Herckie-birds go when Euro-Turkey comes online (and that may be sooner as the French cannot afford to take their delivery slots). It may have also missed you by but we have no MPA.
E.T.A. Further south but also further to the East. Hence mention of "great-circle"....
By contrast, convincing the Scottish electorate to break a union of more than three centuries is more likely to succeed if it’s not seen as a dangerous leap in the dark. To that end, Yes is going to have to find more credible answers to the currency questions, and whether Scotland would be a member of the EU (and on what terms); questions which are interlinked. Better together is likely to make a great deal of the wishful thinking on both matters; that everything will be all right and everyone else will agree to the blueprint’s assertions.
Again, No can win simply by creating enough concern as to the risks those unanswered questions contain. The Australian referendum on whether to declare a republic was lost in no small part not because Australians wanted to retain the Queen as head of state but because the specific alternative was seen as worse.
That was written eight months ago. Yes has completely brushed off any suggestion it would be an issue. The consequences hit home this week and will prove terminal.
We are discussing the same issues after a year of campaigning, but still no answers other than Salmond insisting that he is right because he says so.
If I were a Scot then I may want independence, but not with that blustering buffoon in charge.
You were rather rude about my comments on St. Helena airport the other day.
If the airport has not been "over-spec'ed" can you explain why the airport designs were changed in October 2013 (mid construction) so that it was capable of handling Lockhead C-130 Hercules.
Additionally, it's about 800 miles further south than Wideawake, increasing the effective range of airborne maritime patrols
Herckie-birds go when Euro-Turkey comes online (and that may be sooner as the French cannot afford to take their delivery slots). It may have also missed you by but we have no MPA.
E.T.A. Further south but also further to the East. Hence mention of "great-circle"....
If the result is anything like that, Darling is going to emerge as a surprise conquering hero. I don't think that Labour will switch its Treasury lead from Balls, who has been quietly gaining in credibility, but Miliband seems certain to offer him a prominent role. Business looks a candidate, giving Umunna the chance to broaden his profile in a different portfolio.
If a triumphant Darling heads south, he may become the champion of those dissatisfied with Miliband's leadership. Would Darling rather stay at home and become First Minister?
Yes, he may, though that would only be nuisance value rather than a serious threat while Labour remain in the lead in the polls (and in any case, there's no realistic way to replace a Labour leader who doesn't want to go without causing massive disruption). There may be much louder calls, however, for Darling to stay north of the border and fight the 2016 SGE as Labour leader there.
With eight short words – give or take the odd apostrophe – Alex Salmond sought to put arguably his worst period as SNP leader behind him at Holyrood yesterday.
Smarting from a drubbing at the hands of Alistair Darling over his plans for a Scottish currency if he wins the independent referendum, the SNP leader insisted over and over again: "It's our pound and we're keeping it."
It's not a new slogan; it's long been the message that Mr Salmond has been trotting out in relation to his economic plans for Scotland's go-it-alone future. But after a day of post mortems and soul-searching on Wednesday following Tuesday's car-crash in the STV debate, it is the mantra that the SNP leader has decided to stick with.
And not just stick with – repeat it at every opportunity in the hope that someone, somewhere will believe it. It was pretty poor stuff, aimed presumably at reassuring those shell-shocked separatists who saw their hopes of breaking up Britain begin to disintegrate in that TV confrontation.
The Yes campaign was Toast months ago . The pigeons have now eaten the last of the burnt crumbs and the only thing left of the Yes campaign is pigeon droppings .
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
My daughter may not be typical being at private school and having got 5 As in her highers this week (proud father moment) but her view and that of most of her friends seems to be that nationalism is a slightly old fashioned idea whose time has come and gone. That generation live on the internet and with their mobile devices. They think more internationally than any previous generation given the facilities available to them.
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Alarmingly for the First Minister, 15 per cent of Scots who backed the SNP in the 2011 Holyrood election would be more likely to vote Yes in the referendum if Miss Sturgeon was the leader. A staggering 45 per cent of independence supporters now believe Miss Sturgeon should represent the Yes camp in the BBC debate on August 25.
This would be very interesting, if the Ego would permit an underling to represent the Yes side, however, given Ms. Sturgeon's way of debating is to witter on Ad Nauseum about the truth on page whatever of the White Paper, never allowing an opponent/interviewer a chance to get a syllable in to the "conversation", until her listeners die of boredom, I can't see how it is going to be riveting watching.
Sturgeon can't credibly replace Salmond as the spokesman in the debate without replacing him as FM too. Salmond repeatedly tied the two positions together when he was angling for a debate with Cameron. Also, in practical politics, to hand over the baton would be such an admission of failure that he'd be bombarded with questions as to why he should remain leader of the SNP if he was incapable of leading the advocacy of their core policy at the most critical time in its history. No, he's stuck with the TV gig.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
My daughter may not be typical being at private school and having got 5 As in her highers this week (proud father moment) but her view and that of most of her friends seems to be that nationalism is a slightly old fashioned idea whose time has come and gone. That generation live on the internet and with their mobile devices. They think more internationally than any previous generation given the facilities available to them.
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Foxinsoxjr thinks much the same. No fears about Europe or immigration for him.
Sturgeon can't credibly replace Salmond as the spokesman in the debate without replacing him as FM too. Salmond repeatedly tied the two positions together when he was angling for a debate with Cameron. Also, in practical politics, to hand over the baton would be such an admission of failure that he'd be bombarded with questions as to why he should remain leader of the SNP if he was incapable of leading the advocacy of their core policy at the most critical time in its history. No, he's stuck with the TV gig.
With eight short words – give or take the odd apostrophe – Alex Salmond sought to put arguably his worst period as SNP leader behind him at Holyrood yesterday.
Smarting from a drubbing at the hands of Alistair Darling over his plans for a Scottish currency if he wins the independent referendum, the SNP leader insisted over and over again: "It's our pound and we're keeping it."
Salmond's right of course - Scotland is keeping the pound - but only because he has blown any chance of getting YES. It is a striking admission of defeat.
(For the record, the pound belongs to the UK. Leave the UK, leave the pound. As the people of Scotland are canny enough to understand.)
Sturgeon can't credibly replace Salmond as the spokesman in the debate without replacing him as FM too. Salmond repeatedly tied the two positions together when he was angling for a debate with Cameron. Also, in practical politics, to hand over the baton would be such an admission of failure that he'd be bombarded with questions as to why he should remain leader of the SNP if he was incapable of leading the advocacy of their core policy at the most critical time in its history. No, he's stuck with the TV gig.
He could "pull a sicky"
At which point, cue the cynics and cartoon images of the FM hiding under his desk.
Salmond's right of course - Scotland is keeping the pound - but only because he has blown any chance of getting YES. It is a striking admission of defeat.
Someone should nominate Eck for a peerage for keeping the UK together and killing the separatist dream for a generation
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to stick a fork in Scottish Independence. I suppose it was always likely that the pro Union blob would undo it. And frankly most people in England either don't care or are bored with it.
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
Max, there's no rush. The SNP will have several decades to get their story straight on currency, ahead of the next vote on independence....
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option.
Except all of the existing financial sector, which trades in real Sterling would flee South, so the economy would dramatically shrink overnight.
That is not in itself necessarily a problem, were it not for the fact that the YeSNP have based their entire campaign on "just the same, only better"
Any change in the stance would admit their whole campaign was bollocks, which of course it always was
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to stick a fork in Scottish Independence. I suppose it was always likely that the pro Union blob would undo it. And frankly most people in England either don't care or are bored with it.
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
Indeed, but to whom given that the SNP effectively replaced the Tories as the principal opponents to Labour, and that the Conservatives still have a decent vote share across a fair number of constituencies?
An election that saw both the LD and SNP votes decline significantly could throw up all sorts of strange outcomes.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It's the EU. Without Sterling, it's extremely difficult to argue that an independent Scotland wouldn't be obliged to sign up for the Euro - not the easiest of sells. (Even with Sterling, it may be but the arguments for a continued opt-out would be stronger).
Jim Sillars seems to have called the currency issue far better than the SNP leadership. To pretend that independence can be an easy step with no real downside is just ridiculous. It takes the Scots for fools.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It's the EU. Without Sterling, it's extremely difficult to argue that an independent Scotland wouldn't be obliged to sign up for the Euro - not the easiest of sells. (Even with Sterling, it may be but the arguments for a continued opt-out would be stronger).
I think that is the correct position. If Scotland does NOT have Sterling as part of a currency union with BoE as the central Bank, then when joining the EU, they would have to have the EURO.
Alternatively Scotland could decide not to join the EU and have their own currency. I would have thought this would be an attractive position for some.
Alternatively Scotland could decide not to join the EU and have their own currency. I would have thought this would be an attractive position for some.
True, but another U-turn from the SNPpers which they can't afford
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It's the EU. Without Sterling, it's extremely difficult to argue that an independent Scotland wouldn't be obliged to sign up for the Euro - not the easiest of sells. (Even with Sterling, it may be but the arguments for a continued opt-out would be stronger).
The ticket is to just become an EEA nation like Norway then. That's probably a better prospect for iScot anyway. They wouldn't be able to negotiate an opt out like Britian and Denmark and the EU have wised up to the Swedish solution. EEA membership means they get the benefits of the single market without the drawbacks of being in the Eurozone. The only real downside is that the iScot government wouldn't have any MEPs or a commissioner, but I highly doubt that iScot would weild any power or influence in the EU. When we struggle to get our way with the secondlargest economy and a population of 64m, Scotland would have a snowball's chance in hell of achieving anything significant. EEA membership makes sense.
Again the campaign has been all wrong. Painting a picture of milk and honey to win votes assumes that people are all idiots, and while I'm sure that is true for a certain number of voters, you can't fool everyone. It is natural to question how it would be possible that iScot would be better in every way than being in the UK and that nothing would change from the good stuff, but all the bad stuff would disappear overnight. SNP voters probably don't hold that view I expect that they realise that independence would be a long and hard road but Salmond trying to fool Labour and other voters that it wouldn't be hasn't worked. Sadly I think it is too late to tell the truth that it will be tough but independence is worth the hard times, self determination is important etc...
It comes as no surprise to Jim Sillars that the Scottish National party has taken a beating over the pound this week. The veteran SNP dissident has repeatedly given warning of the tactical risks of making formal currency union with the UK a cornerstone of post-independence economic policy.
“The political flaw is that, by doing this, you have handed over the political initiative to your opponents, because it takes two to make a currency union – just like it takes two to tango,” said Mr Sillars. “If one says no, you can’t tango, and you can’t have a currency union.”
It is a flaw that pro-union politicians have ruthlessly exposed as Scotland enters the final phase of campaigning for next month’s independence referendum.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It would mean very tight control of public spending when a main plank of the Yes case is that Scotland should be independent so it could spend more.
There's also oil to talk about here. In the debate Salmond talked about setting up an oil fund like Norway's. But that means locking the oil money away when it will have to be a primary source of current income.
On a practical level, very little of what the SNP leadership says about financing an independent Scotland makes any sense at all. It's all whistling in the dark. And they're clever enough to know that. But what they also know is that if they get their Yes it does not matter. Their approach is deeply cynical, but could well prove to be effective.
Salmond’s mistake was to believe more Scots wanted independence than actually did – the entire YES campaign has been centred on hearts, not minds and a belief that any old clap trap would be swallowed wholesale by an unthinking population. – The debate exposed him as a charlatan; I see little hope henceforth of the polls changing in his favour.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union. Surely a McPound pegged to Sterling and slowly allowing it to float with the creation of a new central bank that looks a lot like the BoE but based in Edinburgh is a realistic option. That would allow for people to feel secure that their asset values will remain steady and once Scotland's independent economy is standing on its own two feet the currency can be floated. There are plenty of medium and smaller population countries with their own currency and they don't have any problems, the only thing the markets usually ask for is a primary budget surplus and a trade surplus. Scotland would have the latter for sure and as a new nation they would be given time to achieve the former while the currency peg is maintained.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It would mean very tight control of public spending when a main plank of the Yes case is that Scotland should be independent so it could spend more.
There's also oil to talk about here. In the debate Salmond talked about setting up an oil fund like Norway's. But that means locking the oil money away when it will have to be a primary source of current income.
On a practical level, very little of what the SNP leadership says about financing an independent Scotland makes any sense at all. It's all whistling in the dark. And they're clever enough to know that. But what they also know is that if they get their Yes it does not matter. Their approach is deeply cynical, but could well prove to be effective.
Clearly people are not stupid enough to believe that iScot could have a sovereign wealth fund and let loose with public expenditure. They are mutually exclusive. The polls show that people don't believe that this land of milk and honey that Salmond talks about exists. If they did Yes would be in the lead. Voters know when they are being sold a pup. Labour have begun to realise this as well. Populism is popular, but people know when they are being hoodwinked for votes.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
My daughter may not be typical being at private school and having got 5 As in her highers this week (proud father moment) but her view and that of most of her friends seems to be that nationalism is a slightly old fashioned idea whose time has come and gone. That generation live on the internet and with their mobile devices. They think more internationally than any previous generation given the facilities available to them.
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
The SNP look doomed if there is a no vote as seems highly likely. They will reduce to a small rump of idealists.. but where do the rest go. How would former SNP voters vote if not SNP?
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to stick a fork in Scottish Independence. I suppose it was always likely that the pro Union blob would undo it. And frankly most people in England either don't care or are bored with it.
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
Indeed, but to whom given that the SNP effectively replaced the Tories as the principal opponents to Labour, and that the Conservatives still have a decent vote share across a fair number of constituencies?
An election that saw both the LD and SNP votes decline significantly could throw up all sorts of strange outcomes.
Assuming the SNP vote drops, and it seems a likely repeat of 79, which seats would be the most likely Tory gains in Scotland?
It would make for healthier political discourse if all parties were represented across the UK, even if some modified devolution came about.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
My daughter may not be typical being at private school and having got 5 As in her highers this week (proud father moment) but her view and that of most of her friends seems to be that nationalism is a slightly old fashioned idea whose time has come and gone. That generation live on the internet and with their mobile devices. They think more internationally than any previous generation given the facilities available to them.
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
They all sound a rum lot, I have to say. As we know, the UK's business leaders have proved themselves to be pretty piss-poor - just look at our declining exports, productivity and R&D investments. The idea of those who have presided over this sitting in judgement of anyone is rather amusing.
It comes as no surprise to Jim Sillars that the Scottish National party has taken a beating over the pound this week. The veteran SNP dissident has repeatedly given warning of the tactical risks of making formal currency union with the UK a cornerstone of post-independence economic policy.
“The political flaw is that, by doing this, you have handed over the political initiative to your opponents, because it takes two to make a currency union – just like it takes two to tango,” said Mr Sillars. “If one says no, you can’t tango, and you can’t have a currency union.”
It is a flaw that pro-union politicians have ruthlessly exposed as Scotland enters the final phase of campaigning for next month’s independence referendum.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to stick a fork in Scottish Independence. I suppose it was always likely that the pro Union blob would undo it. And frankly most people in England either don't care or are bored with it.
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
Indeed, but to whom given that the SNP effectively replaced the Tories as the principal opponents to Labour, and that the Conservatives still have a decent vote share across a fair number of constituencies?
An election that saw both the LD and SNP votes decline significantly could throw up all sorts of strange outcomes.
Assuming the SNP vote drops, and it seems a likely repeat of 79, which seats would be the most likely Tory gains in Scotland?
It would make for healthier political discourse if all parties were represented across the UK, even if some modified devolution came about.
I'd expect the SNP to pick up votes in 2015 even if there is a No vote. They do have a positive vision for Scotland, even if the detail is deeply flawed, and they are clearly established as the one party Scots voters can be certain will put Scotland first. Labour in Scotland, as in the rest of Britain outside London, looks to be on the back foot and lacking in any kind of coherent thought. If your left of centre in Scotland the SNP is the only real choice.
I'd expect the SNP to pick up votes in 2015 even if there is a No vote. They do have a positive vision for Scotland, even if the detail is deeply flawed, and they are clearly established as the one party Scots voters can be certain will put Scotland first.
There are a couple of problems with that scenario
It assumes the SNP get no voter backlash from so spectacularly bungling their entire reason for existence. Incompetence is not vote friendly
It also assumes the SNP doesn't completely implode in bitter recriminations about who was to blame for losing the only vote that mattered in their entire history.
I'd expect the SNP to pick up votes in 2015 even if there is a No vote. They do have a positive vision for Scotland, even if the detail is deeply flawed, and they are clearly established as the one party Scots voters can be certain will put Scotland first.
There are a couple of problems with that scenario
It assumes the SNP get no voter backlash from so spectacularly bungling their entire reason for existence. Incompetence is not vote friendly
It also assumes the SNP doesn't completely implode in bitter recriminations about who was to blame for losing the only vote that mattered in their entire history.
Yes, the second scenario is clearly a possibility given that the SNP is such a loose alliance. If independence is off the table - or if it is achieved - there's going to be some mighty big arguments about future direction.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to stick a fork in Scottish Independence. I suppose it was always likely that the pro Union blob would undo it. And frankly most people in England either don't care or are bored with it.
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
Indeed, but to whom given that the SNP effectively replaced the Tories as the principal opponents to Labour, and that the Conservatives still have a decent vote share across a fair number of constituencies?
An election that saw both the LD and SNP votes decline significantly could throw up all sorts of strange outcomes.
Assuming the SNP vote drops, and it seems a likely repeat of 79, which seats would be the most likely Tory gains in Scotland?
It would make for healthier political discourse if all parties were represented across the UK, even if some modified devolution came about.
I'd expect the SNP to pick up votes in 2015 even if there is a No vote. They do have a positive vision for Scotland, even if the detail is deeply flawed, and they are clearly established as the one party Scots voters can be certain will put Scotland first. Labour in Scotland, as in the rest of Britain outside London, looks to be on the back foot and lacking in any kind of coherent thought. If your left of centre in Scotland the SNP is the only real choice.
</blockquote
You really do talk the most fantastic rot. The SNP puts the SNP's interests first, it has as much in common with the people of Scotland as Ed Miliband has with the average Doncasterian.
I can see the SNP imploding, but at the very least they will need a rethink on what to do next after a NO vote.
In 2010 there was a smaller swing than nationally, perhaps in part because of having a Scottish leader. That may disappear with Ed, though presumably countered by to overall national swing to Labour. If LD and SNP votes both go down, we could see some very interesting changes in Scotland for the Westminster seats that have been so static for years. It could make all the difference to who is in number 10.
Morning all and it appears the YESNP is in desperation mode this morning. From some claiming they "do not speak to people who hate Scotland" through to those who claim Scotland is owned by the Duke of Westminster, it really is desperate stuff.
Do they seriously believe that if rUK tells them no currency union, they can walk away from 8% of UK National Debt and the international community will welcome them? Clearly they do.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Morning all and it appears the YESNP is in desperation mode this morning. From some claiming they "do not speak to people who hate Scotland" through to those who claim Scotland is owned by the Duke of Westminster, it really is desperate stuff.
Do they seriously believe that if rUK tells them no currency union, they can walk away from 8% of UK National Debt and the international community will welcome them? Clearly they do.
Have you finally changed your mind Easterross? Hitherto, despite all the polling evidence to the contrary, you appeared to be absolutely convinced that the YES side would win. Now you speak of their "desperation". What result are you now expecting?
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
They all sound a rum lot, I have to say. As we know, the UK's business leaders have proved themselves to be pretty piss-poor - just look at our declining exports, productivity and R&D investments. The idea of those who have presided over this sitting in judgement of anyone is rather amusing.
globally operating companies - even if based in UK/Europe - are often not operating mainly from the UK/Europe. A lot of their manufacturing, R&D etc is based outside of the UK/Europe. Western Europe has priced itself out of too many markets.
Morning all and it appears the YESNP is in desperation mode this morning. From some claiming they "do not speak to people who hate Scotland" through to those who claim Scotland is owned by the Duke of Westminster, it really is desperate stuff.
Do they seriously believe that if rUK tells them no currency union, they can walk away from 8% of UK National Debt and the international community will welcome them? Clearly they do.
Actually this is one point SNP are right on - they can walk away from the debt, and leave London to pay it (which we will).
But they then still have to negotiate with rUK for borders, trade, and many other items. Not to mention the various interesting arguments about where to draw a line for the oil reserves. Indeed, using SNP's own arguments about national assets, rUK should be entitled to 92% of it !
Since Scotland will be outside the EU, they will have no automatic rights on any of this. So SNP can walk from the debt, but they will only end up paying another way.
It comes as no surprise to Jim Sillars that the Scottish National party has taken a beating over the pound this week. The veteran SNP dissident has repeatedly given warning of the tactical risks of making formal currency union with the UK a cornerstone of post-independence economic policy.
“The political flaw is that, by doing this, you have handed over the political initiative to your opponents, because it takes two to make a currency union – just like it takes two to tango,” said Mr Sillars. “If one says no, you can’t tango, and you can’t have a currency union.”
It is a flaw that pro-union politicians have ruthlessly exposed as Scotland enters the final phase of campaigning for next month’s independence referendum.
The whole problem and trouble with the SNP, is that since they came to power in Scotland they have moved ever leftward, indeed in some respects they are more socialist that Labour.
An independent Scotland must have an independent currency. I believe that Salmond thought he could get away with a short lived currency union with the rest of the UK and then after he gained EU membership, chain Scotland to the Euro, after which he would bask with other leaders round the top table in Brussels. In other words a big personal ego kick. He has now come a to a well deserved cropper.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
They all sound a rum lot, I have to say. As we know, the UK's business leaders have proved themselves to be pretty piss-poor - just look at our declining exports, productivity and R&D investments. The idea of those who have presided over this sitting in judgement of anyone is rather amusing.
The UK's piss-poor economy is down to historic attitudes. The Labour movement is anti-business, the financiers "wouldn't invest in anything north of Watford". Traditionally it was not considered appropriate by many to be involved with "trade". Ever since Germany was formed as a customs union they have sought to put the wealth of their nation first. The Brits just argue about it.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom was disappointing. The Blockheads and The Lorelei were highlights. Weather looking more promising today.
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
They all sound a rum lot, I have to say. As we know, the UK's business leaders have proved themselves to be pretty piss-poor - just look at our declining exports, productivity and R&D investments. The idea of those who have presided over this sitting in judgement of anyone is rather amusing.
The UK's piss-poor economy is down to historic attitudes. The Labour movement is anti-business, the financiers "wouldn't invest in anything north of Watford". Traditionally it was not considered appropriate by many to be involved with "trade". Ever since Germany was formed as a customs union they have sought to put the wealth of their nation first. The Brits just argue about it.
A little over simplified but a pretty damn accurate summation of why we are where we are today. The problem is that those historic attitudes are far too often still with us.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
You are right, the question that I keep asking myself is why UK companies have such piss poor management? Even when in some of our publicly listed companies the senior management is paid ridiculous amounts of money the companies' performance is still poor.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
Fair enough!
I quite like Purcell, although struggle to get too involved. Haydn (slightly after your period) is my preference for classical music.
Morning all and it appears the YESNP is in desperation mode this morning. From some claiming they "do not speak to people who hate Scotland" through to those who claim Scotland is owned by the Duke of Westminster, it really is desperate stuff.
Do they seriously believe that if rUK tells them no currency union, they can walk away from 8% of UK National Debt and the international community will welcome them? Clearly they do.
Have you finally changed your mind Easterross? Hitherto, despite all the polling evidence to the contrary, you appeared to be absolutely convinced that the YES side would win. Now you speak of their "desperation". What result are you now expecting?
Peter you must have missed my exchanges with Jack during the week. I think Salmond blew it this week. Unless he gets a huge sympathy vote, the debate has all the feeling of being the game changer.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
Not a Motzart fan then? Beethoven leaves you cold?
Salmonds threat to walk away from Scotland's share of the UK's debt if we don't share the GBP with Scotland is pretty amazing when you think about it.
I mean the message that sends to the rest of the world and business would be little short of catastrophic. If the second debate does go ahead Darling should hammer Salmond on this default option and all the consequences it would have for Scotland.
I always thought Salmond was smart and a canny operator, but I'm not sure now...
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
Are our companies owned to export outside of Europe? The sole reason Nissan et al are here is to export to the European market. We have become remarkably foreign-owned. For a lot of global multinationals Britain provides free access to continental Europe. They aren't interested in exporting to China.
Down thread there was speculation about Scottish seats at the GE in the event of a NO vote.
Remembering that in 2010 not a single Scottish seat changed hands in spite of the expectation of most Scottish PBers including me, these are the seats to watch.
LibDem held at present: Caithness, Sutherland and ER Inverness etc Argyll Aberdeenshire W Gordon Edinburgh W Fife NE East Dunbartonshire Berwickshire etc
SNP held at present: Perth Angus Banff
Labour held at present: Ochil Edinburgh SW (if A Darling retires) Dumfries and Gallloway Stirling Aberdeen S (if Dame Anne Begg retires)
I have my thoughts on which might change hands and which might defy expectations. As a Scots Tory, I am obviously encouraged by the fact our vote rose in the Euro elections and in each of the last 20 council by-elections. However that is cautioned by the fact the increase in many cases has been from a very low base.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
Not a Motzart fan then? Beethoven leaves you cold?
The problem with Mozart is it is over-exposed and doesn't - to me - have the emotional richness of Haydn. Beethoven is nice once in a while, as is a bit of Bach or Handel, but Haydn trumps them all.
This was the Mass (Mass in G no.6, Sancti Nicolai we used at our wedding, for instance (link is to the Kyrie). Can you imagine anything better?
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
Are our companies owned to export outside of Europe? The sole reason Nissan et al are here is to export to the European market. We have become remarkably foreign-owned. For a lot of global multinationals Britain provides free access to continental Europe. They aren't interested in exporting to China.
Lets think about the SNP after a NO vote. Surely their support will flag.
As a consequence, Labout will gain a disproportionate number of seats in Scotland, which will help them gain most MPs in the next parliament.
Which seats have you in mind? The only LibDem seats which Labour has a realistic chance in are Caithness etc, Inverness and East Dunbartonshire. The only SNP at risk to them would be Dundee East. All the rest are former Tory seats. There are several Labour held seats where Labour hold them by virtue of the anti-Tory vote being split. If many of those ex-Tories return to the fold, Labour could have a net loss in Scotland not a net gain.
Let's wait for the debates to finish, but if this picture is sustained for another month then the better question would be what happens to the SNP after the people say NO to its core issue of existence.
When will the English start asking themselves whether they really want to stay in a political marriage with a partner who is only there for the money?
Isn't this the point that is being spectacularly missed. 300 years of history, peace and prosperity and it all comes down to the currency. The way the modern world is changing will work against nationalism but this loveless union is depressing. Perhaps a social democratic government that was less London centric might change things. I fear we're past the point of no return.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
Not a Motzart fan then? Beethoven leaves you cold?
I did say most not all. I tend to listen mostly to Handel, Vivaldi and the French Baroque composers. It is the period which interests me most, the one which includes the Jacobite Era (cue Jack W).
Lets think about the SNP after a NO vote. Surely their support will flag.
Using Eck's own arguments, surely the SNP should disband?
If the "sovereign will of the Scottish people" is for the Kingdom to remain United, a political party committed to separation is 'an insult to the Scottish people"...
If YES wins, Salmond could not concede the retention of Faslane.
The great irony of the SNP is the overwhelming majority of its leading figures are reincarnations of 1970s Trot CND loving socialists but they sit for former blue rinse Tory seats. In many cases they have chained themselves to fences etc to oppose military bases in Scotland. IF Salmond tried to backtrack on the pledge to kick out Trident etc, there would be civil war in the SNP and their partner in the Green Party, wee Patrick Harvie would have a hairy fit.
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
Are our companies owned to export outside of Europe? The sole reason Nissan et al are here is to export to the European market. We have become remarkably foreign-owned. For a lot of global multinationals Britain provides free access to continental Europe. They aren't interested in exporting to China.
If you look at patent filings from UK companies in China it's pretty clear they don't see it as an important market. The comparison with most other northern European countries is stark - just as it is elsewhere in the world, sadly. It's all about decisions taken in British boardrooms. Short-termism rules OK.
When will the English start asking themselves whether they really want to stay in a political marriage with a partner who is only there for the money?
Isn't this the point that is being spectacularly missed. 300 years of history, peace and prosperity and it all comes down to the currency. The way the modern world is changing will work against nationalism but this loveless union is depressing. Perhaps a social democratic government that was less London centric might change things. I fear we're past the point of no return.
Frank couldn't that be said by a great many people about their marriages, only in it for the money!
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Whilst my sons and daughter are all a generation older than your daughter (and congrats to her) they (and their friends) all operate and think globally and all have senior roles in globally- operating businesses.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
They all sound a rum lot, I have to say. As we know, the UK's business leaders have proved themselves to be pretty piss-poor - just look at our declining exports, productivity and R&D investments. The idea of those who have presided over this sitting in judgement of anyone is rather amusing.
globally operating companies - even if based in UK/Europe - are often not operating mainly from the UK/Europe. A lot of their manufacturing, R&D etc is based outside of the UK/Europe. Western Europe has priced itself out of too many markets.
Butm is this true? I mean all Dyasons R&D takes place in this country - its the manufacturing which goes abroad. And is british managvement so bad? After a liftimes work in the UK car industry Linda jackson was recentky appointed CEO for the Citroën brand worldwide. Thats a French company of course - putting trust in British management and a woman to boot.
Oh, and the only proper Scottish music festival is Belladrum....
Day 2 and it is only just dry. It is one festival which attracts entire families. 13,000 bopping to Tom Jones and others last night. He is about the only person among the performers I've heard of but then contemporary music has never been my thing.
Tom Jones "contemporary"?!
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
Charles I tend not to listen to anything composed after 1900. Most of the music I listen to was composed between 1650 and 1750.
Not a Motzart fan then? Beethoven leaves you cold?
The problem with Mozart is it is over-exposed and doesn't - to me - have the emotional richness of Haydn. Beethoven is nice once in a while, as is a bit of Bach or Handel, but Haydn trumps them all.
This was the Mass (Mass in G no.6, Sancti Nicolai we used at our wedding, for instance (link is to the Kyrie). Can you imagine anything better?
@blairmcdougall: Our new poster launched by @jimmurphymp today. The question dominating #indyref is now what currency we would use. twitter.com/blairmcdougall/status/498058581099696129/photo/1
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
Are our companies owned to export outside of Europe? The sole reason Nissan et al are here is to export to the European market. We have become remarkably foreign-owned. For a lot of global multinationals Britain provides free access to continental Europe. They aren't interested in exporting to China.
If you look at patent filings from UK companies in China it's pretty clear they don't see it as an important market. The comparison with most other northern European countries is stark - just as it is elsewhere in the world, sadly. It's all about decisions taken in British boardrooms. Short-termism rules OK.
The stock market ensures that I would have thought. There I have some sympathy. How do you make long term decisions when companies are owned the way they are? However, much of that sympathy is lost when you see executives paying themselves vast sums of money, second only to the US, for running their businesses in such an indifferent manner.
I still don't understand why Salmond hasn't come up with an alternative to a currency union.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
It's the EU. Without Sterling, it's extremely difficult to argue that an independent Scotland wouldn't be obliged to sign up for the Euro - not the easiest of sells. (Even with Sterling, it may be but the arguments for a continued opt-out would be stronger).
The ticket is to just become an EEA nation like Norway then. That's probably a better prospect for iScot anyway. They wouldn't be able to negotiate an opt out like Britian and Denmark and the EU have wised up to the Swedish solution. EEA membership means they get the benefits of the single market without the drawbacks of being in the Eurozone. The only real downside is that the iScot government wouldn't have any MEPs or a commissioner, but I highly doubt that iScot would weild any power or influence in the EU. When we struggle to get our way with the secondlargest economy and a population of 64m, Scotland would have a snowball's chance in hell of achieving anything significant. EEA membership makes sense.
Again the campaign has been all wrong. Painting a picture of milk and honey to win votes assumes that people are all idiots, and while I'm sure that is true for a certain number of voters, you can't fool everyone. It is natural to question how it would be possible that iScot would be better in every way than being in the UK and that nothing would change from the good stuff, but all the bad stuff would disappear overnight. SNP voters probably don't hold that view I expect that they realise that independence would be a long and hard road but Salmond trying to fool Labour and other voters that it wouldn't be hasn't worked. Sadly I think it is too late to tell the truth that it will be tough but independence is worth the hard times, self determination is important etc...
Being in the EEA still means obeying all EU rules and that includes free movement of labour and the EU would probably insist on joining Schengen. Just like Norway. Scotland would still need a viable currency.
When will the English start asking themselves whether they really want to stay in a political marriage with a partner who is only there for the money?
Isn't this the point that is being spectacularly missed. 300 years of history, peace and prosperity and it all comes down to the currency. The way the modern world is changing will work against nationalism but this loveless union is depressing. Perhaps a social democratic government that was less London centric might change things. I fear we're past the point of no return.
The fact that the SNP leadership has said nothing much will change with a Yes except things will get better indicates they see there's more to it than money. But sentimentality is no reason to stay together either. Whatever happens in September there will be big changes across the UK over the next few years. We should all welcome that.
When will the English start asking themselves whether they really want to stay in a political marriage with a partner who is only there for the money?
Isn't this the point that is being spectacularly missed. 300 years of history, peace and prosperity and it all comes down to the currency. The way the modern world is changing will work against nationalism but this loveless union is depressing. Perhaps a social democratic government that was less London centric might change things. I fear we're past the point of no return.
The fact that the SNP leadership has said nothing much will change with a Yes except things will get better indicates they see there's more to it than money. But sentimentality is no reason to stay together either. Whatever happens in September there will be big changes across the UK over the next few years. We should all welcome that.
Not sure what changes you mean. More powers for the Scottish parliament? That may be okay, but it only further unbalances the constitution. An English parliament would be hugely destabilising given its relative power, so regional assemblies would make more sense. Lots more questions, no obvious answers.
@Financier - UK companies export less than companies from elsewhere in Europe. Our R&D investment is abysmal. Productivity is below average. That's just rank bad management.
Are our companies owned to export outside of Europe? The sole reason Nissan et al are here is to export to the European market. We have become remarkably foreign-owned. For a lot of global multinationals Britain provides free access to continental Europe. They aren't interested in exporting to China.
If you look at patent filings from UK companies in China it's pretty clear they don't see it as an important market. The comparison with most other northern European countries is stark - just as it is elsewhere in the world, sadly. It's all about decisions taken in British boardrooms. Short-termism rules OK.
The stock market ensures that I would have thought. There I have some sympathy. How do you make long term decisions when companies are owned the way they are? However, much of that sympathy is lost when you see executives paying themselves vast sums of money, second only to the US, for running their businesses in such an indifferent manner.
Spot on. Though at least in the US they do have a track record of investment in R&D and innovation. And just look at our productivity. Obviously, there are some great British companies and top class business leaders, but in the round we lag badly. That's no-one's fault but those who sit in Britain's corporate and banking boardrooms.
Comments
Means you can discuss and compare which poor souls you have saved over the champers.
Salmond is an overblown windbag and was found out. Why he might even be a relation of Neil Kinnock... the welsh windbag.
http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/11/30/salmonds-blueprint-launch-a-very-good-week-for-no/
http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/02/01/the-currency-question-just-got-harder-for-yes-this-week/
From that first article: That was written eight months ago. Yes has completely brushed off any suggestion it would be an issue. The consequences hit home this week and will prove terminal.
72 hours
I don't have a vote, but my preference would be for a fully federal system or, failing that, for the Scots to have independence if they want it.
As for your other assumptions, just remember that we are all trustees, not owners, of the world that we live in.
But for the more cautious Scots, the currency and pensions issue probably needs an answer. Relying on the good sense or good wishes of your ex-partners isn't a safe answer. You can't rely on the heart beating the head, even though you may wish it. You don't need a cast-iron economic plan but it has to be independent of other nations bending to your will.
I'm surprised that the young seem slightly anti, though.
I fear some wishful thinking is involved. That said, since there was a time not so long ago when he had zero credibility, it is possible he has made some gains. However, the fact he lags George Osborne, of all people, on the question of economic competence tells you all you really need to know about how hated and despised he is by the public.
Darling would undoubtedly be a much more formidable presence than Balls as Shadow Chancellor, and would probably go some way to neutralise that 'behind on economic competence' statistic that still dogs the Labour party (and, coupled to Miliband's appalling personal ratings, is the reason why it remains entirely possible that they will come a poor second again next year). Whether Darling would want to return to frontline Westminster politics after his thoroughly miserable experience under Brown, his supposed best friend, is another question entirely.
Is there any possibility that in light of his performance for Better Together he might be offered a seat in the Scottish parliament and the leadership of the Scottish Labour party? Considering the makeweights, total incompetents and general no-hopers who have occupied (disgraced) that office since the death of Donald Dewar, he would certainly be an asset to Labour there - a serious politician with serious experience of tough politics. The one thing to say against it is it's difficult to see how he could hope to heal the fissures that are clearly opening up in Scottish society over the referendum, having led one side of the campaign.
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This would be very interesting, if the Ego would permit an underling to represent the Yes side, however, given Ms. Sturgeon's way of debating is to witter on Ad Nauseum about the truth on page whatever of the White Paper, never allowing an opponent/interviewer a chance to get a syllable in to the "conversation", until her listeners die of boredom, I can't see how it is going to be riveting watching.
E.T.A. Further south but also further to the East. Hence mention of "great-circle"....
We are discussing the same issues after a year of campaigning, but still no answers other than Salmond insisting that he is right because he says so.
If I were a Scot then I may want independence, but not with that blustering buffoon in charge.
Smarting from a drubbing at the hands of Alistair Darling over his plans for a Scottish currency if he wins the independent referendum, the SNP leader insisted over and over again: "It's our pound and we're keeping it."
It's not a new slogan; it's long been the message that Mr Salmond has been trotting out in relation to his economic plans for Scotland's go-it-alone future. But after a day of post mortems and soul-searching on Wednesday following Tuesday's car-crash in the STV debate, it is the mantra that the SNP leader has decided to stick with.
And not just stick with – repeat it at every opportunity in the hope that someone, somewhere will believe it. It was pretty poor stuff, aimed presumably at reassuring those shell-shocked separatists who saw their hopes of breaking up Britain begin to disintegrate in that TV confrontation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11020229/No-ones-buying-Salmonds-claims-about-the-pound.html
Here you go Alex
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/labour-bring-giant-pound-to-first-minister-s-home-1-3502075
The idea of shutting ourselves off from rUK just does not make any sense for those who tend to see the world in a way which gives a much less important role to any nation state. They do not define themselves by country and a national identity, particularly a parochial one, has little resonance with them.
FWIW I think that generation will be pretty pro EU if it comes to that for much the same reasons.
Sturgeon can't credibly replace Salmond as the spokesman in the debate without replacing him as FM too. Salmond repeatedly tied the two positions together when he was angling for a debate with Cameron. Also, in practical politics, to hand over the baton would be such an admission of failure that he'd be bombarded with questions as to why he should remain leader of the SNP if he was incapable of leading the advocacy of their core policy at the most critical time in its history. No, he's stuck with the TV gig.
Nationalism of any stripe is so 1914.
Salmond, the pound "is a millstone around Scotland's neck".
Salmond, " It's our pound and we're keeping it".
(For the record, the pound belongs to the UK. Leave the UK, leave the pound. As the people of Scotland are canny enough to understand.)
There could be some pretty hefty implications for GE though, for the SNP failure here could presage a big drop in share next year.
Considering that Salmond went down the path of denial and it absolutely killed him and the Yes position they should have nothing to fear from proposing something like this.
But by then, the oil will all have gone.
That is not in itself necessarily a problem, were it not for the fact that the YeSNP have based their entire campaign on "just the same, only better"
Any change in the stance would admit their whole campaign was bollocks, which of course it always was
An election that saw both the LD and SNP votes decline significantly could throw up all sorts of strange outcomes.
Alternatively Scotland could decide not to join the EU and have their own currency. I would have thought this would be an attractive position for some.
Again the campaign has been all wrong. Painting a picture of milk and honey to win votes assumes that people are all idiots, and while I'm sure that is true for a certain number of voters, you can't fool everyone. It is natural to question how it would be possible that iScot would be better in every way than being in the UK and that nothing would change from the good stuff, but all the bad stuff would disappear overnight. SNP voters probably don't hold that view I expect that they realise that independence would be a long and hard road but Salmond trying to fool Labour and other voters that it wouldn't be hasn't worked. Sadly I think it is too late to tell the truth that it will be tough but independence is worth the hard times, self determination is important etc...
There's also oil to talk about here. In the debate Salmond talked about setting up an oil fund like Norway's. But that means locking the oil money away when it will have to be a primary source of current income.
On a practical level, very little of what the SNP leadership says about financing an independent Scotland makes any sense at all. It's all whistling in the dark. And they're clever enough to know that. But what they also know is that if they get their Yes it does not matter. Their approach is deeply cynical, but could well prove to be effective.
They went all in on a bluff. Not a good place to be.
However, when it comes to more personal matters like taxation, they are somewhat reluctant to live under a regime for which they have no electoral direct input. Also they believe that immigrants should not have access to benefits to which they have not subscribed unless they is equal reciprocity.
They do not like the EU set up at present as the bureaucracy is driving the membership and not the other way round.
As one of them said recently, we seem to be in a transition period between a federal Europe and even a more global government with too many distracting noises off at present.
Also Welsh, Scottish and even Irish independence cuts no ice with them as they think it is jumped -up parish councillors making a noise for the sole purpose of their own importance. When you work for a global company whose economy is certainly larger than that of Scotland or Wales then overblown personal political ambitions are seen as irrelevance in a global context. As one of their colleagues said recently, if Salmond wants to go away with his declining oil, and whisky that is heavily reliant on export, let him go and play games and we will see him return on his knees some twenty years later.
It was said that the Roman Catholic Church thinks in centuries and not decades, so do the future leaders of this globe's economy.
It would make for healthier political discourse if all parties were represented across the UK, even if some modified devolution came about.
I agree with Jim.
It assumes the SNP get no voter backlash from so spectacularly bungling their entire reason for existence. Incompetence is not vote friendly
It also assumes the SNP doesn't completely implode in bitter recriminations about who was to blame for losing the only vote that mattered in their entire history.
Hhmmmm ....
I can see the SNP imploding, but at the very least they will need a rethink on what to do next after a NO vote.
In 2010 there was a smaller swing than nationally, perhaps in part because of having a Scottish leader. That may disappear with Ed, though presumably countered by to overall national swing to Labour. If LD and SNP votes both go down, we could see some very interesting changes in Scotland for the Westminster seats that have been so static for years. It could make all the difference to who is in number 10.
Do they seriously believe that if rUK tells them no currency union, they can walk away from 8% of UK National Debt and the international community will welcome them? Clearly they do.
May be a diet of char-grilled Salmond on limp lettuce is in order to get it into shape for the Westminster elections?
Now you speak of their "desperation". What result are you now expecting?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/08/independent-scotland-pound-ed-miliband-salmond
Western Europe has priced itself out of too many markets.
ELBOW - Electoral Leader-Board of the Week
But they then still have to negotiate with rUK for borders, trade, and many other items. Not to mention the various interesting arguments about where to draw a line for the oil reserves. Indeed, using SNP's own arguments about national assets, rUK should be entitled to 92% of it !
Since Scotland will be outside the EU, they will have no automatic rights on any of this. So SNP can walk from the debt, but they will only end up paying another way.
The whole problem and trouble with the SNP, is that since they came to power in Scotland they have moved ever leftward, indeed in some respects they are more socialist that Labour.
An independent Scotland must have an independent currency. I believe that Salmond thought he could get away with a short lived currency union with the rest of the UK and then after he gained EU membership, chain Scotland to the Euro, after which he would bask with other leaders round the top table in Brussels. In other words a big personal ego kick. He has now come a to a well deserved cropper.
:lickle-pup-watch:
Come, on, Easterross, you can do better that that! I know you're part of the world is a long way from anywhere, but really...!
I quite like Purcell, although struggle to get too involved. Haydn (slightly after your period) is my preference for classical music.
I'm still baffled by how many Scots seem to think they can demand a currency union with a country they just voted to leave.
Negotiate one, perhaps, but have as of right? It's madder than a box of frogs.
I mean the message that sends to the rest of the world and business would be little short of catastrophic. If the second debate does go ahead Darling should hammer Salmond on this default option and all the consequences it would have for Scotland.
I always thought Salmond was smart and a canny operator, but I'm not sure now...
As a consequence, Labout will gain a disproportionate number of seats in Scotland, which will help them gain most MPs in the next parliament.
But, if SNP and Lib Dems support does decline the seats have to go to someone.
Remembering that in 2010 not a single Scottish seat changed hands in spite of the expectation of most Scottish PBers including me, these are the seats to watch.
LibDem held at present:
Caithness, Sutherland and ER
Inverness etc
Argyll
Aberdeenshire W
Gordon
Edinburgh W
Fife NE
East Dunbartonshire
Berwickshire etc
SNP held at present:
Perth
Angus
Banff
Labour held at present:
Ochil
Edinburgh SW (if A Darling retires)
Dumfries and Gallloway
Stirling
Aberdeen S (if Dame Anne Begg retires)
I have my thoughts on which might change hands and which might defy expectations. As a Scots Tory, I am obviously encouraged by the fact our vote rose in the Euro elections and in each of the last 20 council by-elections. However that is cautioned by the fact the increase in many cases has been from a very low base.
This was the Mass (Mass in G no.6, Sancti Nicolai we used at our wedding, for instance (link is to the Kyrie). Can you imagine anything better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6-YyKWdR84
Scotland is probably the only region where there is a swing (a small one) to the Tories and they could gain a seat or two.
Isn't this the point that is being spectacularly missed. 300 years of history, peace and prosperity and it all comes down to the currency. The way the modern world is changing will work against nationalism but this loveless union is depressing. Perhaps a social democratic government that was less London centric might change things. I fear we're past the point of no return.
If the "sovereign will of the Scottish people" is for the Kingdom to remain United, a political party committed to separation is 'an insult to the Scottish people"...
The great irony of the SNP is the overwhelming majority of its leading figures are reincarnations of 1970s Trot CND loving socialists but they sit for former blue rinse Tory seats. In many cases they have chained themselves to fences etc to oppose military bases in Scotland. IF Salmond tried to backtrack on the pledge to kick out Trident etc, there would be civil war in the SNP and their partner in the Green Party, wee Patrick Harvie would have a hairy fit.
And is british managvement so bad? After a liftimes work in the UK car industry Linda jackson was recentky appointed CEO for the Citroën brand worldwide. Thats a French company of course - putting trust in British management and a woman to boot.