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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For YouGov trend spotting these are the best figures to wat

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For YouGov trend spotting these are the best figures to watch not the daily polls

After the LAB lead dropped from 6% on Monday night to 1% last night there’s been a lot of discussion about the volatility of the firm’s out. In reality, of course, both of this week’s polls have been within the margin of error.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited July 2014
    I agree with Mike
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Why are the LDs slipping even lower???? Voters are so silly.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Interesting thing I note that the Tories are on average for nearly 18 months have been around only 3% down from their GE score.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Diff vs Jan 2012:

    Con: -
    Lab: -5
    LibD: -3
    UKIP: +5

    But "UKIP only hurts the Tories" (yes, I know it's more complicated than that......)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Looks like both Lab and Con could end up on 35%.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Pulpstar said:

    Looks like both Lab and Con could end up on 35%.

    Lab: it's not a fair recovery I'm not seeing it, Lab will make it fair and I will see it
    Cons: we were in a hole, Cons got us out of it and we are growing. Lab will c*ck it up again

    touch and go, I agree.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,935
    That is a truly horrible direction of travel for the LibDems.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    ‘the decline of Labour from the dizzy heights of te low 40s’

    ‘te’ - Is this some odd phraseology picked up in your short trip to Ilkley?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Eastbourne Pier is on fire :-(
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    That is a truly horrible direction of travel for the LibDems.

    On the positive side, their maximum share loss from here is only 8%!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Eastbourne Pier is on fire :-(

    There is a headline on Google news which says:

    European Space Agency launches to take supplies to ISS.

    When I read it my subconscious added another "I" which made it a bizarre thing for the ESA to have done.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    rcs1000 said:

    That is a truly horrible direction of travel for the LibDems.

    On the positive side, their maximum share loss from here is only 8%!
    Similarly to stocks & shares. People forget that when a stock has gone down by 90%, it can still go down by another 90%.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    CON 34
    LAB 37
    LIB DEM 8

    Will be the figures for July

    Lead will be 3.5
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    TOPPING said:

    Eastbourne Pier is on fire :-(

    There is a headline on Google news which says:

    European Space Agency launches to take supplies to ISS.

    When I read it my subconscious added another "I" which made it a bizarre thing for the ESA to have done.
    Could be worse, you could own or work here

    ISIS Equity Partners

    http://www.isisep.com/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Dave couldn't even win a majority against gormless Gordon! How can he win a majority against Super Ed?

    :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    Is the lead in that table a straight subtraction,a rounded sum of the leads, or a rounding of an unrounded subtraction of the Con and Lab shares ?
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    When ISIS first popped up on the scene I kept thinking of Archer - but I've stopped that now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    34 38 8 -4
    33 38 8 -5
    35 36 8 -1
    35 39 8 -4
    34 35 8 -1
    YouGov/Sun 23/07/2014 34 38 8 -4
    YouGov/Sun 22/07/2014 34 37 7 -3
    YouGov/Sun 21/07/2014 34 38 9 -4
    YouGov/Sunday Times 18/07/2014 32 37 9 -5
    YouGov/Sun 17/07/2014 32 39 8 -7
    YouGov/Sun 16/07/2014 33 36 9 -3
    YouGov/Sun 15/07/2014 34 38 6 -4
    YouGov/Sun 14/07/2014 35 38 8 -3
    YouGov/Sunday Times 11/07/2014 33 38 9 -5
    YouGov/Sun 10/07/2014 34 37 8 -3
    YouGov/Sun 09/07/2014 32 36 10 -4
    YouGov/Sun 08/07/2014 31 38 8 -7
    YouGov/Sun 07/07/2014 34 37 9 -3
    YouGov/Sun on Sunday 04/07/2014 35 37 8 -2
    YouGov/Sunday Times 04/07/2014 34 36 8 -2
    YouGov/Sun 03/07/2014 35 36 8 -1
    YouGov/Sun 02/07/2014 35 37 8 -2
    YouGov/Sun 01/07/2014 33 38 8 -5

    33.69565217 37.26086957 8.173913043 -3.565217391
    33.5 37.26086957 8.173913043 -3.5
    34 37 8
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    My guess is that we will see cross over between the Lib Dems and UKIP in the next few months, at least with Yougov. Cross over between the big 2 is proving more elusive and I am increasingly doubting that Yougov will show that, at least on the monthly basis shown in the tables before the election. No doubt there will be the odd poll, indeed it is positively weird there has not been some already given the MOE and the comparative closeness of the scores, but a consistent lead looks unattainable with this pollster at least.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    There are the workings.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    CON 34
    LAB 37
    LIB DEM 8

    Will be the figures for July

    Lead will be 3.5

    Kipper score - 12.26% at present - lowest for 4 months.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    JBriskin said:

    When ISIS first popped up on the scene I kept thinking of Archer - but I've stopped that now.

    I thought of Dylan

    Isis oh Isis you are a terrible child,
    What's driving me to you is driving me insane.

    Still do really.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    DavidL said:

    My guess is that we will see cross over between the Lib Dems and UKIP in the next few months, at least with Yougov. Cross over between the big 2 is proving more elusive and I am increasingly doubting that Yougov will show that, at least on the monthly basis shown in the tables before the election. No doubt there will be the odd poll, indeed it is positively weird there has not been some already given the MOE and the comparative closeness of the scores, but a consistent lead looks unattainable with this pollster at least.

    Lab-Con are closer than UKIP-Lib Dem.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Arrghh... took too long to get on to edit.
    It's mystical child not terrible child.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess is that we will see cross over between the Lib Dems and UKIP in the next few months, at least with Yougov. Cross over between the big 2 is proving more elusive and I am increasingly doubting that Yougov will show that, at least on the monthly basis shown in the tables before the election. No doubt there will be the odd poll, indeed it is positively weird there has not been some already given the MOE and the comparative closeness of the scores, but a consistent lead looks unattainable with this pollster at least.

    Lab-Con are closer than UKIP-Lib Dem.
    Yes but one has clearer trends than the other.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So the monthly average change will be

    Con +1
    Lab =
    Kipper -2
    LD =

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    By the way there was a crossover poll, of a sort -

    The Lab 39, Con 33 poll had more Conservative respondents than Labour.
  • FPT

    TSE : "When a hard working and diligent candidate like Marcus Wood can't win Torbay you know Sanders and the Lib Dems are strong in that part of the world. "

    Ah, but the LibDems' share of the vote nationally has fallen by more than half since the last GE.
    If the Tories can't capture Torbay then the LibDems should be backed to win >40 seats.
    Personally I don't see it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014

    FPT

    TSE : "When a hard working and diligent candidate like Marcus Wood can't win Torbay you know Sanders and the Lib Dems are strong in that part of the world. "

    Ah, but the LibDems' share of the vote nationally has fallen by more than half since the last GE.
    If the Tories can't capture Torbay then the LibDems should be backed to win >40 seats.
    Personally I don't see it.

    I'm "green" as it were on the outcome and Kevin Foster is a personal friend of mine, but I still think he is odds against. (9-4 was generous whilst it was about though)

    Paddy is 8-5 on him if you want it !
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2014
    Sir Keir Starmer officially announces his bid for Holborn and St Pancrass Labour selection if the NEC will make it an Open shortlist (as there're any doubt that it will be Open...)

    He already got endorsements from Tessa Jowell, Helena Kennedy, Trevor Phillips, Mary Honeyball MEP, Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead & Kilburn PPC, defeated by 2 votes in 2012 Camden leadership election by Sarah Hayward who will probably be Starmer's main opponent in the selection), the Chair of Kings Cross Mosque, Fiona Millar and a couple of Cllrs.
    ASLEF also declared their backing for him.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Sir Keir Starmer officially announces his bid for Holborn and St Pancrass Labour selection if the NEC will make it an Open shortlist (as there're any doubt that it will be Open...)

    He already got endorsements from Tessa Jowell, Helena Kennedy, Trevor Phillips, Mary Honeyball MEP, Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead & Kilburn PPC, defeated by 2 votes in 2012 Camden leadership election by Sarah Hayward who will probably be Starmer's main opponent in the selection), the Chair of Kings Cross Mosque, Fiona Millar and a couple of Cllrs.
    ASLEF also declared their backing for him.

    Another Tory toff - oh wait..
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014

    FPT

    TSE : "When a hard working and diligent candidate like Marcus Wood can't win Torbay you know Sanders and the Lib Dems are strong in that part of the world. "

    Ah, but the LibDems' share of the vote nationally has fallen by more than half since the last GE.
    If the Tories can't capture Torbay then the LibDems should be backed to win >40 seats.
    Personally I don't see it.

    Lib Dems can hold onto Torbay and be under 40 seats - easily.

    Here are the seats I reckon they can lose whilst still holding on in the bay:

    1. Solihull Majority 175 (0.3%)
    2. Mid Dorset and North Poole Majority 269 (0.6%)
    3. Norwich South Majority 310 (0.7%)
    4. Bradford East Majority 365 (0.9%)
    5. Wells Majority 800 (1.4%)
    6. St Austell & Newquay Majority 1312 (2.8%)
    7. Brent Central Majority 1345 (3%)
    10. St Ives Majority 1719 (3.7%)
    11. Manchester, Withington Majority 1894 (4.2%)
    12. Burnley Majority 1818 (4.3%)
    13. East Dunbartonshire Majority 2184 (4.6%)
    14. Chippenham Majority 2470 (4.7%)
    15. Cheadle Majority 3272 (6.2%)
    16. North Cornwall Majority 2981 (6.4%)
    17. Eastbourne Majority 3435 (6.6%)
    18. Taunton Deane Majority 3993 (6.9%)
    19. Berwick-upon-Tweed Majority 2690 (7%)
    21. Birmingham, Yardley Majority 3002 (7.3%)
    22. Argyll & Bute Majority 3431 (7.6%)
    23. Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine Majority 3684 (8.2%)
    24. Edinburgh West Majority 3803 (8.2%)
    31. Redcar Majority 5214 (12.4%)
    38. Gordon Majority 6748 (13.8%)
    44. Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey Majority 8765 (18.6%)

    POSSIBLY:

    36. Cambridge Majority 6792 (13.5%)
    43. Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Majority 4826 (16.8%)
    Bermondsey
    45. Bermondsey & Old Southwark Majority 8530 (19.1%)
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    His quotes:

    "It would be an honour for anyone to succeed Frank Dobson. It will now be for the party to agree the process and timetable but if it is an open shortlist I intend to seek selection from members of Holborn and St Pancras, my home for over 15 years."
    "Our constituency needs an MP who will continue Frank’s principled campaigning, fight to get the Tories out of power and be able to influence a future Labour government. I believe I can bring my experience as a human rights lawyer, DPP and campaigner to do that. I am only too aware of the impact that politics has on the daily lives of all of us."
    TGOHF said:

    Sir Keir Starmer officially announces his bid for Holborn and St Pancrass Labour selection if the NEC will make it an Open shortlist (as there're any doubt that it will be Open...)

    He already got endorsements from Tessa Jowell, Helena Kennedy, Trevor Phillips, Mary Honeyball MEP, Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead & Kilburn PPC, defeated by 2 votes in 2012 Camden leadership election by Sarah Hayward who will probably be Starmer's main opponent in the selection), the Chair of Kings Cross Mosque, Fiona Millar and a couple of Cllrs.
    ASLEF also declared their backing for him.

    Another Tory toff - oh wait..
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Shi'a muslims too perhaps...

    The media seem to have gone very quiet on the topic of Iraq.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @MikeK

    I think it inappropriate to post a direct link to that video.

    OGH has asked us to exercise discretion on these matters and PB also gets a fair amount of traffic from younger folk.

    Perhaps on reflection you might ask to have the post deleted.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    taffys said:

    Shi'a muslims too perhaps...

    The media seem to have gone very quiet on the topic of Iraq.

    It's never been proportionate

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3599423.stm

    800,000 people slaughtered and I barely remember a peep in the UK media.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Sleazy broken India on the slide (85/3)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Ishmael_X said:

    Sleazy broken India on the slide (85/3)

    Give the Caste-botherers hell :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    I'd be livid if I was anything to do with the Indian team - 3 down and not a single wicket to Jimmy or Stuart.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    England tops the medal table, matching Oz’s 34 golds, but pipping them on silver 34/31.

    Hopefully some good TV coverage to catch up on this evening.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    England tops the medal table, matching Oz’s 34 golds, but pipping them on silver 34/31.

    Hopefully some good TV coverage to catch up on this evening.

    India in 6th place. Second only to the Aussies in 2010 - being the host nation helped :)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    This is a staggeringly poor performance by India. Another one gone.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    taffys said:
    Interesting that Daley says: "I suspect that this measure was slipped into the Budget by Treasury officials with little attention being paid to it by George Osborne or his advisers," because Damian MacBride surmised the same origin for the omnishambles budget -- treasury officials waiting till Osborne was not looking and then slipping in items from the shopping list that Gordon Brown had annually rejected for the past decade.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Why is India relatively terrible at sport? It's got over a billion people. Is it because cricket dominates the sporting landscape so everything else is a poor relation?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    DavidL said:

    This is a staggeringly poor performance by India. Another one gone.

    Come on England!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. L, the measure's appalling and should be halted at once.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    England tops the medal table, matching Oz’s 34 golds, but pipping them on silver 34/31.

    Hopefully some good TV coverage to catch up on this evening.

    India in 6th place. Second only to the Aussies in 2010 - being the host nation helped :)
    The ‘home team’ advantage is quite fascinating as a motivational force – can never decide if it is the support of ones fellow countrymen, or the fear of disappointing them which spurs athletes on.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    Why is India relatively terrible at sport? It's got over a billion people. Is it because cricket dominates the sporting landscape so everything else is a poor relation?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Commonwealth_Games_medal_table
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited July 2014
    Dr. Prasannan, picking a single data point doesn't constitute a potent argument.

    Edited extra bit: India's got more people than England and Australia combined, and had home advantage. It should be dominating the Commonwealth in sporting terms.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Is there such a big difference between dipping into your bank account while you're alive, or taking a large percentage after you die?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    In the 20 YG polls in July LAB averaging 37.2% & CON 33.7%

    Average lead 3.5%
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Evening all :)

    If we're discussing the Commonwealth Games Medal Table, how about a kind word for New Zealand (Mrs Stodge would approve) sitting in fifth place. Population the size of Wales but not far behind Canada and Scotland in terms of medals.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    Dr. Prasannan, picking a single data point doesn't constitute a potent argument.

    Edited extra bit: India's got more people than England and Australia combined, and had home advantage. It should be dominating the Commonwealth in sporting terms.

    WeThey came fourth in the medals in 2006 and 2002.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    In the 20 YG polls in July LAB averaging 37.2% & CON 33.7%

    Average lead 3.5%

    Ed4PM!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    If we're discussing the Commonwealth Games Medal Table, how about a kind word for New Zealand (Mrs Stodge would approve) sitting in fifth place. Population the size of Wales but not far behind Canada and Scotland in terms of medals.

    Every time I have turned on the telly there seems to be someone from NZ picking up a medal. An incredible performance for such a small country.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JackW said:

    @MikeK

    I think it inappropriate to post a direct link to that video.

    OGH has asked us to exercise discretion on these matters and PB also gets a fair amount of traffic from younger folk.

    Perhaps on reflection you might ask to have the post deleted.

    JackW said:

    @MikeK

    I think it inappropriate to post a direct link to that video.

    OGH has asked us to exercise discretion on these matters and PB also gets a fair amount of traffic from younger folk.

    Perhaps on reflection you might ask to have the post deleted.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Mr. L, the measure's appalling and should be halted at once.

    Agree entirely. If the Lib Dems had a backbone they'd stop it. This is about making sure that the executive is subject to the law. The idea that the state should be able to do what it wants just because some civil servant is too bloody lazy or unwilling to have their actions scrutinized to get a court order is a disgrace. Even more of a disgrace that the Conservatives are behind it.

  • That is a truly horrible direction of travel for the LibDems.

    A mere fleshwound.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Cyclefree said:

    Agree entirely. If the Lib Dems had a backbone they'd stop it. This is about making sure that the executive is subject to the law. The idea that the state should be able to do what it wants just because some civil servant is too bloody lazy or unwilling to have their actions scrutinized to get a court order is a disgrace. Even more of a disgrace that the Conservatives are behind it.

    Janet Daley, and indeed most people who have got indignant about this, seem remarkably ignorant about the absolutely draconian powers of Customs & Excise officers, powers which have existed since time immemorial. It is quite simply wrong to say that it is something new in principle.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Cyclefree said:

    Agree entirely. If the Lib Dems had a backbone they'd stop it. This is about making sure that the executive is subject to the law. The idea that the state should be able to do what it wants just because some civil servant is too bloody lazy or unwilling to have their actions scrutinized to get a court order is a disgrace. Even more of a disgrace that the Conservatives are behind it.

    Janet Daley, and indeed most people who have got indignant about this, seem remarkably ignorant about the absolutely draconian powers of Customs & Excise officers, powers which have existed since time immemorial. It is quite simply wrong to say that it is something new in principle.
    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Cyclefree said:

    Agree entirely. If the Lib Dems had a backbone they'd stop it. This is about making sure that the executive is subject to the law. The idea that the state should be able to do what it wants just because some civil servant is too bloody lazy or unwilling to have their actions scrutinized to get a court order is a disgrace. Even more of a disgrace that the Conservatives are behind it.

    Janet Daley, and indeed most people who have got indignant about this, seem remarkably ignorant about the absolutely draconian powers of Customs & Excise officers, powers which have existed since time immemorial. It is quite simply wrong to say that it is something new in principle.
    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?
    Why can't people just pony up their taxes ?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    Agree entirely. If the Lib Dems had a backbone they'd stop it. This is about making sure that the executive is subject to the law. The idea that the state should be able to do what it wants just because some civil servant is too bloody lazy or unwilling to have their actions scrutinized to get a court order is a disgrace. Even more of a disgrace that the Conservatives are behind it.

    Janet Daley, and indeed most people who have got indignant about this, seem remarkably ignorant about the absolutely draconian powers of Customs & Excise officers, powers which have existed since time immemorial. It is quite simply wrong to say that it is something new in principle.
    Just because one part of the executive has got excessive powers does not mean that these should be extended. I thought you were a Conservative. The state should be the servant of the people not its master. No point Cameron wittering about Magna Carta and British values but not understanding that making the executive subject to the law and the scrutiny of the courts is one of the key battles of British history and not to be thrown away just to make matters administratively convenient for the taxman.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I thought you were a Conservative.

    This is the key point. Any civil servant who would have even dared propose this to Mrs T. would have been seen swinging by a rope from Westminster Lamp post that night.

    The very fact that Osborne and Cameron allowed this to even be mooted shows they cannot be conservatives. They are just big government corporatists with better PR than labour.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The Labour approach to finance...

    @PickardJE: Labour's annual surplus: £5.5m. Labour's annual (opposition party) state subsidy: £7m @GreenJimll @toryradio
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited July 2014
    Taxmen have draconian powers.

    If that's true then why don;t they use the powers they already have? why do they need more powers?

    That link you post refers to GOODS. it does not refer to bank accounts, as I suspect you well know.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Scott_P said:

    The Labour approach to finance...

    @PickardJE: Labour's annual surplus: £5.5m. Labour's annual (opposition party) state subsidy: £7m @GreenJimll @toryradio

    An unfair comparison, I think. That'd be like saying the government can't spend corporation tax receipts because they might disappear next year.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    taffys said:

    Taxmen have draconian powers.

    If that's true then why don;t they use the powers they already have? why do they need more powers?

    That link you post refers to GOODS. it does not refer to bank accounts, as I suspect you well know.

    Yes, I think you've answered your own question.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,698

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    I take it, Mr Brooke, that you've never run a small company which got onto arrears with it's tax payments. A bailiff can appear on your premises and seize goods if you can't produce the cash. Not a cheque; either the cash or a bankers draft.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Yes, I think you've answered your own question.

    Maybe, but it also contradicts your assertion that taxmen have draconian powers. They clearly don't.

  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014
    The logic of @Richard_Nabavi's position seems to be as follows. Suppose a policeman had the power to arrest any person without cause and detain him for a week without charge, but that such power were only exercisable north of Leeds. It follows that no one should complain if the power were extended to policemen throughout the country.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014

    The logic of @Richard_Nabavi's position seems to be as follows. Suppose a policeman had the power to arrest any person without cause and detain him for a week without charge, but that such power were only exercisable north of Leeds. It follows that no one should complain if the power were extended to policemen throughout the country.

    No, the logic of my position is that an argument should be based on fact. In your hypothetical example, Janet Daley's argument would be tantamount to denying that policemen anywhere in the country had such power.

    If she had written 'HMRC already have powers to seize assets without a court order, why do they need any more powers?', that would have been a fair point, which one could assess on its merits.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    An attachment of earnings order requires a court order; so does making someone bankrupt. So does freezing of bank accounts. That is the point.

    It really does not take much effort to go to court to say this person owes this much money - and this is how it has been worked out - and has been asked to pay on these number of occasions and here is the proof and here is an affidavit to say that no reply has been received and here is this person's account and we are only taking what we are legally due and if we get it wrong you the court can reverse this and order us to pay penalties. Any competent legal department can sort this out pdq and it provides some check and balance as does the court scrutiny.

    And, yet, HMRC want to avoid all that, for no good reason that they have articulated and every responsible organisation which has commented has said what a terrible idea it is but it's all right, you say, because some other part of the agency can also exercise powers and do terrible things to you so why not this as well.

    Jesus wept!

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    Hammond has apparently admitted that the EU sanctions on Russia will affect the UK economy. I couldn't find the original source/interview, but he's quoted on RT: http://rt.com/uk/176696-eu-sanctions-russia-economy/

    Can anyone explain to me how our politicians are prepared to sacrifice the all too fragile recovery of our own economy on the basis of zero evidence, before the reporting of any enquiry into MH-17? Who are prepared to take us to the brink of conflict with the world's 2nd biggest nuclear power? It's like some insane parallel universe. And it's these same student politician amateur adventurers having their infantile 'COBRA' meetings who warn of the 'dangers' of a party like UKIP coming to power.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Luckyguy1983
    Everybody gets a chance to strike a manly jaw jutting pose for the cameras, the risk of nuclear annihilation is a mere afterthought to a good media opportunity. ;-)
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
  • No, the logic of my position is that an argument should be based on fact. In your hypothetical example, Janet Daley's argument would be tantamount to denying that policemen anywhere in the country had such power.

    If she had written 'HMRC already have powers to seize assets without a court order, why do they need any more powers?', that would have been a fair point, which one could assess on its merits.

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    No, the logic of my position is that an argument should be based on fact. In your hypothetical example, Janet Daley's argument would be tantamount to denying that policemen anywhere in the country had such power.

    If she had written 'HMRC already have powers to seize assets without a court order, why do they need any more powers?', that would have been a fair point, which one could assess on its merits.

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?
    He only supports it if it is proposed by a Tory government. If it is proposed by a Labour government then it is an utterly unacceptable extension of government powers that would not be out of place in a left wing dictatorship.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?

    Well, put it this way, for my entire life the state has had that power, and I've never heard anyone suggest that the power should have been taken away. I believe it's the same in most democracies. Of course, there is not the end of the matter; this is actually about whether, in a dispute, after four warnings, and in very well-defined circumstances, the alleged tax gets paid first and then paid back if the taxpayer wins in court, rather than vice versa.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Hugh said:

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
    Ah Hugh. Another moron who has forgotten that the government is supposed to serve the people not the other way round.
  • Hugh said:

    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.

    Absurd and unthinking authoritarianism. If Parliament abolished the general principle that a warrant was needed before a person's home could be searched by a constable, few would be reassured if they were told that if they didn't like the position, they should obey the law. This is simply an extension of "the nothing to hide, nothing to fear" doctrine.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. .
    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Hugh said:

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
    Yeah: let's give the agency which lost all our child benefit records because they didn't have the wit to comply with basic IT security, the agency which doesn't even answer the phone half the time, the power to seize money from our bank accounts without having to prove anything at all. They could get the name wrong, take the money and the poor bloody taxpayer who has paid his taxes has to pay money to lawyers to get his money back. All because HMRC can't be bothered.

    I do pay my taxes. I have been overtaxed and HMRC have owed me money. I can't dip into their account to get MY money back. I have to wait months and months and I don't get any interest even though it was never the state's money in the first place.

    HMRC's record is lamentable. But even if they were perfect, they shouldn't have such a power without some form of court scrutiny. The balance of power between the individual and the state should be in favour of the individual. The state exists to serve us and not the other way around.




  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?

    Well, put it this way, for my entire life the state has had that power, and I've never heard anyone suggest that the power should have been taken away. I believe it's the same in most democracies. Of course, there is not the end of the matter; this is actually about whether, in a dispute, after four warnings, and in very well-defined circumstances, the alleged tax gets paid first and then paid back if the taxpayer wins in court, rather than vice versa.
    So 'Yes' then.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kle4 said:

    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.

    The question is surely whether they need draconian powers, and whether they abuse them.

    In any case, everyone seems to be missing the point I've been making, which is that this is hardly some major new principle, some line which has never been crossed before. It may or may not be a good measure, but the argument that it is in principle some breach of Magna Carta, never before inflicted on free-born Englishmen, is just utter garbage.

    As for Richard T's argument that government should serve the people, I rather think the people are fed up with tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
  • Well, put it this way, for my entire life the state has had that power, and I've never heard anyone suggest that the power should have been taken away. I believe it's the same in most democracies. Of course, there is not the end of the matter; this is actually about whether, in a dispute, after four warnings, and in very well-defined circumstances, the alleged tax gets paid first and then paid back if the taxpayer wins in court, rather than vice versa.

    Such casuistry would give Ignatius of Loyola or Francisco Suárez a run for their money. The more ancient a custom in derogation of the liberty of the subject, the more deplorable it is.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?

    Well, put it this way, for my entire life the state has had that power, and I've never heard anyone suggest that the power should have been taken away. I believe it's the same in most democracies. Of course, there is not the end of the matter; this is actually about whether, in a dispute, after four warnings, and in very well-defined circumstances, the alleged tax gets paid first and then paid back if the taxpayer wins in court, rather than vice versa.
    So 'Yes' then.

    I don't have particularly strong views on it, to be honest. I do have strong views on basing arguments on fact, not nonsense.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    So let us be clear. Do you support the principle that the state should be permitted to seize the property of a person, who is alleged to be in arrears with HMRC, without a court order?

    Well, put it this way, for my entire life the state has had that power, and I've never heard anyone suggest that the power should have been taken away. I believe it's the same in most democracies. Of course, there is not the end of the matter; this is actually about whether, in a dispute, after four warnings, and in very well-defined circumstances, the alleged tax gets paid first and then paid back if the taxpayer wins in court, rather than vice versa.
    No: it's not about whether the tax gets paid first. It's about whether the taxman can seize the money without getting a court order first. A subtle but important difference.

    Nor is it correct that there are 4 warnings: there have to be 4 letters saying that the money is due and must be paid. Who checks? What if the letters are addressed to the wrong address or not sent or there is no evidence of them having been received? What if the person was away or ill? Someone can say that 4 letters were sent and just do it. And the taxpayer must then prove a negative: I did not receive the letters. A logical impossibility.

    I'm puzzled as to why you are so resistant to the idea that the taxman should have to be subject to some checks and balances before seizing money.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Hugh said:

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
    Ah Hugh. Another moron who has forgotten that the government is supposed to serve the people not the other way round.
    The Government is serving the people extremely well if it collects more of its taxes that are due.

    If you don't like it, then just pay your tax.

    "The Taxman" takes money directly from me every week before it even has a chance to reach my bank account, I don't shriek like a Tea Party fruitcake about it.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    kle4 said:

    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.

    The question is surely whether they need draconian powers, and whether they abuse them.

    In any case, everyone seems to be missing the point I've been making, which is that this is hardly some major new principle, some line which has never been crossed before. It may or may not be a good measure, but the argument that it is in principle some breach of Magna Carta, never before inflicted on free-born Englishmen, is just utter garbage.

    As for Richard T's argument that government should serve the people, I rather think the people are fed up with tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
    No, what people are apparently fed up with is the tax evasion by big multi-nationals. Of course the tax man is happy to sit down with them over a nice glass of wine and discuss a voluntary contribution whilst using draconian powers against the rest of the population who can't threaten to take their business elsewhere.

    What people are really fed up with is the hypocrisy of it all. Something you are exhibiting in spades.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    kle4 said:

    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.

    The question is surely whether they need draconian powers, and whether they abuse them.

    In any case, everyone seems to be missing the point I've been making, which is that this is hardly some major new principle, some line which has never been crossed before. It may or may not be a good measure, but the argument that it is in principle some breach of Magna Carta, never before inflicted on free-born Englishmen, is just utter garbage.

    As for Richard T's argument that government should serve the people, I rather think the people are fed up with tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
    Indeed so. One of the best ways the Government can serve the people in a time of enforced "austerity" is by collecting due taxes.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014

    No, what people are apparently fed up with is the tax evasion by big multi-nationals. Of course the tax man is happy to sit down with them over a nice glass of wine and discuss a voluntary contribution whilst using draconian powers against the rest of the population who can't threaten to take their business elsewhere.

    What people are really fed up with is the hypocrisy of it all. Something you are exhibiting in spades.

    How you manage to accuse me of hypocrisy, when all that I have done is point out that, contrary to what Janet Daley and others have said, the taxman has always had powers to seize assets without a court order, is mysterious in the extreme.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Really shocked about Eastbourne pier, had a lovely stroll along it a few weeks ago:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-28571431
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    kle4 said:

    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.

    The question is surely whether they need draconian powers, and whether they abuse them.

    In any case, everyone seems to be missing the point I've been making, which is that this is hardly some major new principle, some line which has never been crossed before. It may or may not be a good measure, but the argument that it is in principle some breach of Magna Carta, never before inflicted on free-born Englishmen, is just utter garbage.

    As for Richard T's argument that government should serve the people, I rather think the people are fed up with tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
    I'm pretty fed up with tax evasion to be honest. I'm all in favour of HMRC getting money from those who evade their taxes. I want them to do it according to the law and subject to the scrutiny of the courts not just screech "you owe us" and help themselves.



  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    If something is draconian, then should not the automatic reaction be to address things to make them less draconian across the board, not accept that draconian powers are facts of life and accept draconian measures elsewhere? By definition draconian means excessively harsh, and if things already are draconian, that does not mean increasing or even merely not reversing the excessively harsh reality should be accepted.

    The question is surely whether they need draconian powers, and whether they abuse them.

    In any case, everyone seems to be missing the point I've been making, which is that this is hardly some major new principle, some line which has never been crossed before. It may or may not be a good measure, but the argument that it is in principle some breach of Magna Carta, never before inflicted on free-born Englishmen, is just utter garbage.

    As for Richard T's argument that government should serve the people, I rather think the people are fed up with tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
    I'm pretty fed up with tax evasion to be honest. I'm all in favour of HMRC getting money from those who evade their taxes. I want them to do it according to the law and subject to the scrutiny of the courts not just screech "you owe us" and help themselves.



    They don't need a court order every time they take money from my wages or every time I buy a VAT rated good.

    Go Coalition!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
    Ah Hugh. Another moron who has forgotten that the government is supposed to serve the people not the other way round.
    The Government is serving the people extremely well if it collects more of its taxes that are due.

    If you don't like it, then just pay your tax.

    "The Taxman" takes money directly from me every week before it even has a chance to reach my bank account, I don't shriek like a Tea Party fruitcake about it.

    The government does not go into your account to take tax. Your employer pays you the net amount. If this goes ahead, the employer could make a mistake without you realising. And some junior clerk could simply decide to take the money from your account. You say - after the event - I never received any warning letters. I'm on PAYE; what do you mean I owe tax. How? Why couldn't my tax code be adjusted etc? HMRC says: yes we wrote letters, no we don't have proof of posting or delivery and no we don't care that your employer was a numpty. We've taken it. Too bad. Oh dear: we got it wrong. You'll get your refund some time next year.

    You're naive if you think this will only be used against some wicked tax evader only.

  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2014
    Hugh said:

    They don't need a court order every time they take money from my wages or every time I buy a VAT rated good.

    If you can't see the difference between taxes collected at source, and the government seizing property or cash where it is alleged that a person is in arrears, you are either being deliberately obtuse or stupid.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Cyclefree said:

    Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    So you're all for it Commissar Nabavi ?

    Taxmen have draconian powers. That is a fact of life. They can close down your company, bankrupt your personally, seize your car or indeed any assets they like, or freeze your bank account (which basically makes it impossible to live), at the drop of a hat. They can grab your salary before it's even paid to you.

    Is this an unacceptable extension of such powers? Maybe it is, but I do object to idiotic comments like Janet Daley saying "a basic premise of democratic government cannot be overturned". It has never been a basic premise of democratic government that customs officers and tax inspectors need a court order to seize assets. Maybe it should be, but it never has been in the past - so let's be accurate, shall we? Taxmen can already seize your assets without a court order:

    http://www.harringtonbrooks.co.uk/advice-centre/legal-action/distraint

    On the particular point, it doesn't seem as draconian as many of the existing powers. At least you get some warning and a chance to make representations.
    Spot on.

    If you don't like it then pay your bloody taxes.

    Screeching Tea Party extremist lunatics like Daley can take a short walk off a long pier.
    Ah Hugh. Another moron who has forgotten that the government is supposed to serve the people not the other way round.
    The Government is serving the people extremely well if it collects more of its taxes that are due.

    If you don't like it, then just pay your tax.

    "The Taxman" takes money directly from me every week before it even has a chance to reach my bank account, I don't shriek like a Tea Party fruitcake about it.

    The government does not go into your account to take tax. Your employer pays you the net amount. If this goes ahead, the employer could make a mistake without you realising. And some junior clerk could simply decide to take the money from your account. You say - after the event - I never received any warning letters. I'm on PAYE; what do you mean I owe tax. How? Why couldn't my tax code be adjusted etc? HMRC says: yes we wrote letters, no we don't have proof of posting or delivery and no we don't care that your employer was a numpty. We've taken it. Too bad. Oh dear: we got it wrong. You'll get your refund some time next year.

    You're naive if you think this will only be used against some wicked tax evader only.

    A very good point.

    Gonna look into this a bit more actually...

This discussion has been closed.