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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft’s latest round of CON-LAB marginals polling w

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft’s latest round of CON-LAB marginals polling would be even more informative if the candidates were named

I got into a good natured Twitter exchange last night with Lord Ashcroft about the seats that will be included in his next round of marginals polling due to be published in the next few days. In fact I needn’t have bothered because on the Saturday after the May 22nd local elections he said the following to a ConHome conference:

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    North East First !
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    FPT: F1: post-race analysis, in the form of the two most recent comments, is up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/germany-pre-qualifying.html#comment-form

    Shan't spoil it for anyone, but if you're the sort who sometimes watches highlights and sometimes doesn't, I'd advocate watching them this evening.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325
    Come on India!!!

    [Sunil suddenly clutches his head, screaming, as his Tebbit Chip kicks in...]


    Aaaarrrrrgh!

    [..before a more servile expression crosses his face:]


    Must...be...loyal...to...England. Must...be...loyal...
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited July 2014
    Has Lord A brought ORB/Gallup back to the British Political landscape?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Quite common nowadays apparently though no reason pegged yet.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8763115.stm

    Something to do with immune system being weaker with age maybe?

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    At least the beer's cheap ;-)

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    I don't think we are going to be seeing a ceasefire in Gaza anytime soon.

    Reported that 87 Palestinians have been killed today alone (with usual caveats over numbers coming from Palestinian sources) and now reports of 13 Israeli soldiers killed by Hamas.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Quite common nowadays apparently though no reason pegged yet.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8763115.stm

    Something to do with immune system being weaker with age maybe?

    "Something to do with immune system being weaker with age maybe?"

    Thanks, Mr. Jones. Not sure I like the idea of my immune system being weaker than it was, mind you. There are lots of worse lurgies out there than hay fever that I have come to expect my immune system to take on and defeat. Never mind, what the immune system struggles with whiskey can probably kill-off (well, its an idea that has worked so far). .
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    MrJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Quite common nowadays apparently though no reason pegged yet.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8763115.stm

    Something to do with immune system being weaker with age maybe?

    Depends a lot on the degree of pollen in the atmosphere as well.An anti-histamine from a pharmacy usually takes the worst out of it for me.
    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Hay-fever/Pages/Introduction.aspx

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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    There has been an apparent conflict in the polls this weekend and the mid-week ICM poll in terms of the UKIP vote.UKIP is maintaining its position in the mid to high teens,according to this weekend's polls,whereas ICM had them dropping to 9%.Maybe the Ashcroft polling will elucidate.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    What a surprise.....

    "Royal Mail readies for battle with shareholders
    Revolt likely over £1.35m pay package for Moya Greene and the chief's warning that its universal service obligation is at risk"

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/20/royal-mail-readies-battle-shareholders
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    There has been an apparent conflict in the polls this weekend and the mid-week ICM poll in terms of the UKIP vote.UKIP is maintaining its position in the mid to high teens,according to this weekend's polls,whereas ICM had them dropping to 9%.Maybe the Ashcroft polling will elucidate.

    ICM: Impossibly complicated model that can't see UKIP for dust in the eyeballs. ;)
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,864
    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    I hope it isn't the same seats polled by Ashcroft, I can't see how that much would have changed in two months. Considering 13 of the 14 polled last time were Labour gains it would be interesting to see how safe the seats below these are for the Tories at the moment.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Artist said:

    I hope it isn't the same seats polled by Ashcroft, I can't see how that much would have changed in two months. Considering 13 of the 14 polled last time were Labour gains it would be interesting to see how safe the seats below these are for the Tories at the moment.

    Yeah I'd like him to head to some others tbh
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    MikeK said:

    There has been an apparent conflict in the polls this weekend and the mid-week ICM poll in terms of the UKIP vote.UKIP is maintaining its position in the mid to high teens,according to this weekend's polls,whereas ICM had them dropping to 9%.Maybe the Ashcroft polling will elucidate.

    ICM: Impossibly complicated model that can't see UKIP for dust in the eyeballs. ;)
    ICM alongside YouGov got closest to UKIP at the May 22nd Euros. All the others overstated the party -some by quite big gaps.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    MikeK said:

    There has been an apparent conflict in the polls this weekend and the mid-week ICM poll in terms of the UKIP vote.UKIP is maintaining its position in the mid to high teens,according to this weekend's polls,whereas ICM had them dropping to 9%.Maybe the Ashcroft polling will elucidate.

    ICM: Impossibly complicated model that can't see UKIP for dust in the eyeballs. ;)
    ICM alongside YouGov got closest to UKIP at the May 22nd Euros. All the others overstated the party -some by quite big gaps.

    Mike, as you thought AIFE took 1.5% off the Ukip vote share through people mistaking them for kippers, surely rely you can't disregard that view when saying which pollster was closest to the final score?

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Looks like we have our SPOTY. Well done Mr McIlroy.
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    jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Yes,I first got it aged 35,following a very high exposure one day,and have had it every year since,I had a particularly bad episode earlier this year after crossing a chest high grass field in flower.
    I am told modern antihistamines are very good,but I prefer to suffer rather than take medication.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    Whatever happens - need weather for the draw.

    Fancy England to win this 4s tempting.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    Dropped out of the race after only 6 months,Tory candidate must be delighted.

    www.centralsomersetgazette.co.uk/Sarah-Yong-Lib-Dem.../story.html
    The Lib Dem Prospective Parliamentary Candidate for Somerton and Frome has announced she has stepped down from the race to take over ...

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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    jayfdee said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Yes,I first got it aged 35,following a very high exposure one day,and have had it every year since,I had a particularly bad episode earlier this year after crossing a chest high grass field in flower.
    I am told modern antihistamines are very good,but I prefer to suffer rather than take medication.

    Mr. Jayfdee, Thanks for that. It does seem a dreadful prospect that I can now be sent off with streaming eyes and explosive sinuses from an afternoon in the garden. Hopefully if I up the dose of whiskey that wlil do the trick once more.
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Dan Byles stepping down in North Warwickshire. Shame he is a good MP with some real life experience. Has a young family which I would imagine is a big factor. Majority of about 50 so that will be a toughie.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Just looked at the final polls from each pollster on the euros... If @mikesmithson was right that AIFE took 1.5% off UKIP, ICM were actually the worst in terms of getting UKIP right, understating by over 4%
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786
    Intrigued as to what Cameron may say tomorrow.

    If he's brave (and if the facts are as they seem) he'll lay in to Putin in a big way. The Russians need to be forced to acknowledge their culpability, and hopefully the absurd adventurism that doesn't belong in this century will be halted.

    I'm even more intrigued as to what Ed might say - as he seems to be resurrecting the policies of yesteryear (railways) he's become somewhat tricky to anticipate.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2014
    The new Solicitor General was censured for breaching the legal profession's code of conduct three years ago, the government has confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28393743

    I can't quite believe Labour's breath taking hypocrisy in their response, it is like Baroness Scotland (Attorney General) never existed !
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    jayfdee said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Yes,I first got it aged 35,following a very high exposure one day,and have had it every year since,I had a particularly bad episode earlier this year after crossing a chest high grass field in flower.
    I am told modern antihistamines are very good,but I prefer to suffer rather than take medication.

    Mr. Jayfdee, Thanks for that. It does seem a dreadful prospect that I can now be sent off with streaming eyes and explosive sinuses from an afternoon in the garden. Hopefully if I up the dose of whiskey that wlil do the trick once more.
    I'm pleased to say that my hay fever seems to have abated somewhat as I've got older. It was a real four letter experience when I was young, and I sometimes wonder if I would have had better exam results and a different career if the various exams had been in the winter!
    Early antihistamines had the serious disadvantage of making one drowsy, but research has improved the situation and with odd exceptions most of us don't experience such problems.

    A good dose of whisky certainly dries the mouth and sipping it slowly, with one's nose over the glass gets some cleansing and drying fumes into the nose! My experience suggests at least a quadruple is the minimum required.
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    Looks like we have our SPOTY. Well done Mr McIlroy.

    Probably, but he's hardly much value at odds-on and SPOTY voters always seem reluctant to vote for golfers so I think I'll keep my money in my pocket.

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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    MikeK said:

    There has been an apparent conflict in the polls this weekend and the mid-week ICM poll in terms of the UKIP vote.UKIP is maintaining its position in the mid to high teens,according to this weekend's polls,whereas ICM had them dropping to 9%.Maybe the Ashcroft polling will elucidate.

    ICM: Impossibly complicated model that can't see UKIP for dust in the eyeballs. ;)
    I'm not surprised UKIP are the hardest to predict, because voters will have relatively little historical support them, certainly not at Westminster.

    On another note, I must say that over the reshuffle there was almost no indication that they were the opposition in waiting - they didn't set the narrative at all.
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255

    Looks like we have our SPOTY. Well done Mr McIlroy.

    Probably, but he's hardly much value at odds-on and SPOTY voters always seem reluctant to vote for golfers so I think I'll keep my money in my pocket.

    Challenge will be Hamilton, not sure i'd want to go in at odds on with that uncertainty.
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    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758

    The new Solicitor General was censured for breaching the legal profession's code of conduct three years ago, the government has confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28393743

    I can't quite believe Labour's breath taking hypocrisy in their response, it is like Baroness Scotland (Attorney General) never existed !

    If you had not linked to the story, I doubt I would have seen it. It is a bit of a non story, about some infringement of rules which was noted for 2 years and then removed. As long as no other issues are found, there is no reason why Robert Buckland cannot continue in the role.

    I think Labour raised a fair point about what checks are made by the PM's team at No.10, following other recent issues including Andy Coulson.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Smarmeron Greene's package is large, though still the smallest for a CEO in the FTSE 100, personally I don't see why RM as a private entity now should be subject to the universal service obligation. It is a private business and delivering parcels and letters to the likes of Skye at the same price as inner London is loss-making and any other business would scrap it if they could. Either the government should also make TNT liable to the universal service and provide a subsidy to cover the losses, or they should scrap it altogether
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Omnium said:

    Intrigued as to what Cameron may say tomorrow.

    If he's brave (and if the facts are as they seem) he'll lay in to Putin in a big way. The Russians need to be forced to acknowledge their culpability, and hopefully the absurd adventurism that doesn't belong in this century will be halted.

    I'm even more intrigued as to what Ed might say - as he seems to be resurrecting the policies of yesteryear (railways) he's become somewhat tricky to anticipate.

    But Cameron won't KNOW what the facts are tomorrow. There is a bizarre, other worldly quality to senior politicians and the media baying for blood on the basis of completely unsubstantiated accusations. Replacing all sense of logic with righteous hysteria against Gadaffi or Assad is one thing. To do so against Russia and Putin is downright dangerous. Does no-one realise this is a World War we may be talking about? We need a collective slap in the face.
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    They should take the captaincy off him but keep him in the side.

    I would make Root captain, he's going to be around for long time and bats at five which I would say is ideal for a captain. Prior has been excellent over the years but his time is up, time for Buttler. Alternatively, James Foster is possibly the best wicketkeeper in the game and a very good captain, maybe make him captain for a couple of years, Root vice captain with the long term aim of stepping him up later.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786

    But Cameron won't KNOW what the facts are tomorrow. There is a bizarre, other worldly quality to senior politicians and the media baying for blood on the basis of completely unsubstantiated accusations. Replacing all sense of logic with righteous hysteria against Gadaffi or Assad is one thing. To do so against Russia and Putin is downright dangerous. Does no-one realise this is a World War we may be talking about? We need a collective slap in the face.

    I think this example is unusual - I think that the Nato will know. There is a blindingly obvious assumption of course, but precisely the first thing that will have been done is to check that. Russian military forces are undoubtedly active in that vicinity, and as such satellites are undoubtedly looking.

    I mostly agree with your sentiments about Libya and Syria, but I'm happy to guess that this is a very different situation.

    War is clearly a tricky thing, and you may be right. Personally I think that the fear of war is the mechanism most likely to actually engender them. As such we need to say boo to Putin's goose.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Luckyguy1983

    'Replacing all sense of logic with righteous hysteria against Gadaffi or Assad is one thing.'

    So he should have just sat back and watched as thousands were slaughtered in Benghazi?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    They should take the captaincy off him but keep him in the side.

    I would make Root captain, he's going to be around for long time and bats at five which I would say is ideal for a captain. Prior has been excellent over the years but his time is up, time for Buttler. Alternatively, James Foster is possibly the best wicketkeeper in the game and a very good captain, maybe make him captain for a couple of years, Root vice captain with the long term aim of stepping him up later.
    Essex fans would agree wholeheartedly about Foster as England's keeper. He's obviously upset several very important people in the cricket world otherwise he would have been re-instated years ago. However, as a regular Essex watcher I'm far less sure about him as a captain, and I'm certain I'm not the only Essex supporter who feels the same!
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    jayfdee said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Yes,I first got it aged 35,following a very high exposure one day,and have had it every year since,I had a particularly bad episode earlier this year after crossing a chest high grass field in flower.
    I am told modern antihistamines are very good,but I prefer to suffer rather than take medication.

    Mr. Jayfdee, Thanks for that. It does seem a dreadful prospect that I can now be sent off with streaming eyes and explosive sinuses from an afternoon in the garden. Hopefully if I up the dose of whiskey that wlil do the trick once more.
    I'm pleased to say that my hay fever seems to have abated somewhat as I've got older. It was a real four letter experience when I was young, and I sometimes wonder if I would have had better exam results and a different career if the various exams had been in the winter!
    Early antihistamines had the serious disadvantage of making one drowsy, but research has improved the situation and with odd exceptions most of us don't experience such problems.

    A good dose of whisky certainly dries the mouth and sipping it slowly, with one's nose over the glass gets some cleansing and drying fumes into the nose! My experience suggests at least a quadruple is the minimum required.
    My dear, Mr Cole, I thank you for your professional advice which has now been printed and stick up in strategic locations. Quadrupling my daily in-take of whiskey on medicinal grounds may not be what Herself wants to hear but it is nice to have a sound medical opinion behind my natural tendencies.
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    They should take the captaincy off him but keep him in the side.

    I would make Root captain, he's going to be around for long time and bats at five which I would say is ideal for a captain. Prior has been excellent over the years but his time is up, time for Buttler. Alternatively, James Foster is possibly the best wicketkeeper in the game and a very good captain, maybe make him captain for a couple of years, Root vice captain with the long term aim of stepping him up later.
    Essex fans would agree wholeheartedly about Foster as England's keeper. He's obviously upset several very important people in the cricket world otherwise he would have been re-instated years ago. However, as a regular Essex watcher I'm far less sure about him as a captain, and I'm certain I'm not the only Essex supporter who feels the same!
    I think he has suffered over the years with the current fashion that wicketkeepers have to be a good bat rather than a decent keeper, hence the clamour for Buttler.

    The opposing view is that a brilliant keeper like Foster can save around 20 runs/byes over five days and snaffle up the sort of chances that Prior has let slip in this Test. I blame Adam Gilchrist.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Obama will, of course, do sod all about Putin other than a few sanctions and neither will we or Merkel. I would actually rather Assad were in power than ISIS, with their stoning to death of women accused of adultery, crucifixions of opponents and Christians and destruction of Christian sites, handchoppings of petty thieves and multiple decapitations.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good evening, everyone.

    Rather splendid race, save the red bet. Hungary's only a week away, then there's about four weeks off until Spa.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. HYUFD, not only Christian sites. Ancient statues have been destroyed by ISIS because they depicted human beings.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Personally I now think it's highly unlikely that the rebels shot down the plane. The evidence would appear rather to point to the Ukrainian authorities. Of course this is not something that will appear in the our media, or from our politicians, who continue to tow the US line, despite the obvious danger to Europe. Look out for this being used as a pretext for military intervention to 'secure' the site (ie to help the Ukraine Government control the East of the country, without which it is an unworkable state).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Morris Dancer Indeed, they are taking the areas they control not just back to the Middle Ages but the Dark Ages, Assad is no saint, but at least he is educated and has some respect for a few principles of civilisation!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. T, during the... 7th (I think, might've been 8th) century there was a wave of icon-destroying by the iconoclasts in Byzantium. That was influenced by the Eastern (Islamic) view that humans and gods should not be depicted and that there was an element of idolatry involved (to be fair, some icons were made 'godparents', so it was clearly a bit excessive).

    On the other hand, one might hope that some sort of progress might have been achieved since the 7th century...

    It's bloody depressing, really. Many classical texts survived the millennia because of the scholarship and love of knowledge that Islamic rulers displayed several hundred years ago.

    Mr. HYUFD, you're quite right. Assad's a dictator whose soldiers have done unspeakable things. Yet his continued dictatorship is not the worst case scenario for Syria.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Luckyguy1983

    'Personally I now think it's highly unlikely that the rebels shot down the plane. The evidence would appear rather to point to the Ukrainian authorities'

    And what evidence is that?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    SeanT said:

    Mr. HYUFD, not only Christian sites. Ancient statues have been destroyed by ISIS because they depicted human beings.

    ISIS seem to be the epitome of evil.

    Perhaps the most wicked political movement since the Khmer Rouge. A similar worship of death and destruction, a similar raging, sadistic intolerance.
    And this comes from Saudi Arabia. As does the entire Wahhabi movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement , all the radicalisation of UK mosques, Abu Qatada, all the sponsorship of terror, 9-11, all that stuff. They should be our enemies, but Prince Charles goes there and dresses in an idiotic costume and does the sword dance instead. We had a parliamentary vote on bombing the Assad regime out of existence, why not ISIS?
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Omnium said:

    Intrigued as to what Cameron may say tomorrow.

    If he's brave (and if the facts are as they seem) he'll lay in to Putin in a big way. The Russians need to be forced to acknowledge their culpability, and hopefully the absurd adventurism that doesn't belong in this century will be halted.

    I'm even more intrigued as to what Ed might say - as he seems to be resurrecting the policies of yesteryear (railways) he's become somewhat tricky to anticipate.

    Well so far the US has overthrown a democratically elected government, imposed sanctions on Russia (an act of war) when Russia was in no way assisting the rebels in Donestk and Lugansk, has refused to recognise the result of Crimea's vote for independence, encouraged the Kiev government to not agree to the Russian and European negotiated ceasefire thus initiating the recent bloodshed, sought to block the building of the South Stream pipeline that would provide secure transit for gas bypassing Ukraine which recently agreed to end restrictions on foreign (ie. US firms) ownership allowing a 49% stake and cheered on the bombing of civilians areas as well as use of paramilitary forces on civilian populations resulting in the deaths of hundreds.

    I see little choice is being presented to the Russian or rebel leadership and I expect them to continue to react in the rational manner they have so far. If the US and Kiev government continue on their current path there will be only one outcome and I am amazed very few European leaders have told the Americans to back off.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    SeanT Indeed, when Al Qaeda disowned them for being too extreme the danger is clear!
  • Options
    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    I might add the key role Russia has played in the recent successful nuclear negotiations between the West and Iran as well as the brokering of the removal of chemical weapons from Syria. I can understand with this track record the determination by some elements to remove Russia as a key player in world affairs and Russia (and the rest of the worlds) cynicism and distrust when dealing with the West.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    MorrisDancer Thank god Parliament voted against any action against Assad, the only possible action of any sense could have been to arm 'moderate' rebels against ISIS and Assad, but as they have now largely disappeared best to leave well alone
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2014
    Mr. T, there's still (just about) the Free Syrian Army. Assad's fighting ISIS, but also the FSA.

    I'm flabbergasted by those who go to join ISIS. What runs through their heads? Most of the people they'll kill are Muslims. It makes as much sense as the Fourth Crusade, which actually attacked a Christian city (Byzantium).


    Edited extra bit: Mr. T (2), according to... someone (I forget if it's Norwich or Gibbon) the black stone thingummyjig predates Islam. It was just another pagan magic stone thing, but (as with Christians essentially stealing Christmas and elements of Mithras-worship) it became part of Islamic 'tradition'.

    Also, I thought it was said that Saudi Arabia backed, at least indirectly, ISIS?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Mr. HYUFD, not only Christian sites. Ancient statues have been destroyed by ISIS because they depicted human beings.

    ISIS seem to be the epitome of evil.

    Perhaps the most wicked political movement since the Khmer Rouge. A similar worship of death and destruction, a similar raging, sadistic intolerance.
    And this comes from Saudi Arabia. As does the entire Wahhabi movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement , all the radicalisation of UK mosques, Abu Qatada, all the sponsorship of terror, 9-11, all that stuff. They should be our enemies, but Prince Charles goes there and dresses in an idiotic costume and does the sword dance instead. We had a parliamentary vote on bombing the Assad regime out of existence, why not ISIS?
    Indeed. Which makes THIS even more ironic, if true*

    http://patriotsbillboard.org/isis-jihadists-are-planning-to-destroy-the-kaaba-in-mecca-and-kill-the-king-of-saudi-arabia/

    *the website looks a bit iffy
    The Patriots Billboard? A bit iffy.

    How can I put this politely, these are the people who think George W Bush was a lefty.

    They make Tap look like rational human being.
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    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Great programme about intelligent but nauseatingly precocious kids, 'Child Genius' now on Channel 4
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    FPT - For MalcolmG - YouGov aren't asking me how I'd vote in the Indyref.

    They occasionally ask me

    1) Would I buy products from an Independent Scotland a) If the products were cheaper than Rump UK companies selling the products b) would I avoid using firms from an Independent Scotland

    2) Should we be in a currency union with an Independent Scotland and should we share Sterling

    3) Do I think an Independent Scotland would do better or worse

    4) Ditto Rump UK

    that sort of stuff.

    They also asked if Alex Salmond was an animal would I think he'd be, ditto for all the other leaders, you'll be delighted to know, for Dave, I chose a panda.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    SeanT Indeed, if worst comes to worst
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

    I would disagree entirely, Rangers may well stay up with some decent signings and no reason why Hull should do worse than this season, I would definitely oppose that bet.

    My main bet will be Utd to finish above Liverpool but not sure yet how to approach it, like you I will wait for the spread companies to price up.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: if you backed Rosberg but still haven't gone all green, Hamilton's out to evens for the title with Ladbrokes.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    F1: if you backed Rosberg but still haven't gone all green, Hamilton's out to evens for the title with Ladbrokes.

    Cracking race today.

    Jensen deserves to be publicly waterboarded for ruining Hamilton's race
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2014
    Mr. Eagles, to be honest, I think the impact of that damage has been over-egged. What cost Hamilton second was the early pit stop near the end, presuming a safety car.

    Edited extra bit: last year Williams scored 5 points in the whole season. Quite the comeback. I do wonder if they might get second this year.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Mr. Eagles, to be honest, I think the impact of that damage has been over-egged. What cost Hamilton second was the early pit stop near the end, presuming a safety car.

    Edited extra bit: last year Williams scored 5 points in the whole season. Quite the comeback. I do wonder if they might get second this year.

    It was the greatest tactical blunder since Crassus at Carrhae
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    john_zims said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    'Personally I now think it's highly unlikely that the rebels shot down the plane. The evidence would appear rather to point to the Ukrainian authorities'

    And what evidence is that?

    Listed here on this very interesting seperatist supporting blog: https://slavyangrad.wordpress.com as well as on zero hedge.

    If you're prepared to expose your ears to something from infowars (thankfully a Brit, not Alex Jones), there's some fairly concise commentary on the following video too.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMgIpC-bCfQ
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

    I'm loathe to bet on QPR - I can see them having an interesting transfer window, they do have a tendency to spend silly money at the end of windows.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2014
    Betting related post

    Has anyone used matchbook.com?

    A bit like Betfair, but with only 1% commission

    https://www.matchbook.com/
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Labour rules out immediate public spending increase

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28389816

    Wasn't that the new labour trick.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Personally I now think it's highly unlikely that the rebels shot down the plane. The evidence would appear rather to point to the Ukrainian authorities. Of course this is not something that will appear in the our media, or from our politicians, who continue to tow the US line, despite the obvious danger to Europe. Look out for this being used as a pretext for military intervention to 'secure' the site (ie to help the Ukraine Government control the East of the country, without which it is an unworkable state).

    1- What "evidence" points to the Ukrainian authorities?

    2. When do you expect this intervention to take place (by) and what form would this intervention take?

  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT Indeed, when Al Qaeda disowned them for being too extreme the danger is clear!

    Al Qaeda disowned them for not fitting their world view and not taking orders. It had nothing to do with a level of extremism.

    I also think people have this ISIS thing round the wrong way. They originated in Iraq not Syria. The Iraqi government quite happily let them and associated Sunni radicals troupe across the border to fight in Syria thinking they'd just get rid of them. And now they are back. In fact I reported back in April on this forum, weeks before this current phase of activity began that they were going back across the border.

    Only a fraction of those who are doing the fighting as part of the Sunni uprising are actually part of ISIS. This is an alliance of convenience between Sunni tribes, Baathists and ISIS. ISIS can be thought of as your Waffen SS & special police units. That alliance has had plenty of arguments already. Under the Americans the likes of ISIS were very firmly put on the back foot as part of the Sunni Awakening a few years back. Former enemies during that phase are now working together.

    Finally and I'll say it again. ISIS biggest source of funding is themselves and their own 'legitimate businessman club' activities.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Hamas said on Sunday evening that it had captured an Israeli soldier, but this has not been confirmed by Israel.

    Celebratory gunfire and shouts could be heard in Gaza City after the claim was made.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28392636
  • Options

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

    I'm loathe to bet on QPR - I can see them having an interesting transfer window, they do have a tendency to spend silly money at the end of windows.
    Personally I will be astonished if QPR don't get relegated - I expect them to finish plumb bottom, not least because they were exceptionally fortunate to have been promoted last season, when they were certainly not the 3rd, 4th or even 5th best side. Fortunately for them they had a good first half to the season but tailed off alarmingly towards the end, flooking the play-off final.

    Yes, I've heard of Matchbook but wouldn't use them personally - I've seen them promoted aggressively on betting sites which puts me off. Plus I rather take the view that if Betfair, Betdaq and Ladbrokes all believe that it costs 5% comm'n on winning bets to operate an exchange, then it probably can't be run at 20% of that level of commission.
    How does the expression go? If it sounds too good to be true ..........
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    jayfdee said:

    AndyJS said:

    26 degrees in Oslo today. No escape from the heatwave it seems.

    Its a bugger. Anyone know if hay fever can be contracted later in life? Herself is out selling books for the local cat charity today, so I have been able to spend the last few hours in the garden watching The Brute pretending to be a tiger. Now my eyes are streaming and I am exploding in all directions. I have never had hay fever in my life but I have blasted my way through half a box of tissues in the last half an hour.
    Yes,I first got it aged 35,following a very high exposure one day,and have had it every year since,I had a particularly bad episode earlier this year after crossing a chest high grass field in flower.
    I am told modern antihistamines are very good,but I prefer to suffer rather than take medication.

    Mr. Jayfdee, Thanks for that. It does seem a dreadful prospect that I can now be sent off with streaming eyes and explosive sinuses from an afternoon in the garden. Hopefully if I up the dose of whiskey that wlil do the trick once more.
    I'm pleased to say that my hay fever seems to have abated somewhat as I've got older. It was a real four letter experience when I was young, and I sometimes wonder if I would have had better exam results and a different career if the various exams had been in the winter!
    Early antihistamines had the serious disadvantage of making one drowsy, but research has improved the situation and with odd exceptions most of us don't experience such problems.

    A good dose of whisky certainly dries the mouth and sipping it slowly, with one's nose over the glass gets some cleansing and drying fumes into the nose! My experience suggests at least a quadruple is the minimum required.
    My dear, Mr Cole, I thank you for your professional advice which has now been printed and stick up in strategic locations. Quadrupling my daily in-take of whiskey on medicinal grounds may not be what Herself wants to hear but it is nice to have a sound medical opinion behind my natural tendencies.
    Mr Llama, if you add Stone's Ginger Wine to the base medication, that should make it clear to Herself that it is purely for therapeutic purposes
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    The Israelis lost sight of one of their soldiers as long ago as yesterday. Officially he was registered as KIA.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Y0kel said:

    The Israelis lost sight of one of their soldiers as long ago as yesterday. Officially he was registered as KIA.

    By the way the Free Syrian Army have launched an attack in the heart of Damascus tonight. Just in case anyone thought nothing was going on.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Yokel That may be, but clearly we need to do whatever we can to stop them, whether that includes Sunnis or Shias
  • Options
    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    Whatever happens - need weather for the draw.

    Fancy England to win this 4s tempting.
    Despite myself, I do too. Starting with Moeen and Root gives me a bit of confidence - should be a good crowd in for the start of the school holidays. Who knows?
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Yokel That may be, but clearly we need to do whatever we can to stop them, whether that includes Sunnis or Shias

    Your chance to put the brakes on early was in Iraq and Syria. We turned down both by disengaging in Iraq and half arsed engagement in Syria before they turned up..
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    The Iraq intervention now looks like a mistake in the first place and it was of course the elected Maliki who refused to make any concessions to Shias. In Syria, Assad is now sadly the best obstacle to Isis
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699145/Thatcher-tried-sell-NHS-I-blocked-Ken-Clarke-says-rejected-plan-dreadful-American-health-system.html

    On a slower news day, I think the #10 spinners would have had to be working overtime. I wonder if Clarke will provide further "helpful" comments in the run up to the GE now that he isn't tied to the reservation.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

    I'm loathe to bet on QPR - I can see them having an interesting transfer window, they do have a tendency to spend silly money at the end of windows.
    Personally I will be astonished if QPR don't get relegated - I expect them to finish plumb bottom, not least because they were exceptionally fortunate to have been promoted last season, when they were certainly not the 3rd, 4th or even 5th best side. Fortunately for them they had a good first half to the season but tailed off alarmingly towards the end, flooking the play-off final.

    Yes, I've heard of Matchbook but wouldn't use them personally - I've seen them promoted aggressively on betting sites which puts me off. Plus I rather take the view that if Betfair, Betdaq and Ladbrokes all believe that it costs 5% comm'n on winning bets to operate an exchange, then it probably can't be run at 20% of that level of commission.
    How does the expression go? If it sounds too good to be true ..........
    Thanks
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    BobaFett said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cricket looking threatening - weather in East London of a similar disposition.

    I've taken back my red off the draw - Cook really is shocking - he should have come out and played shots... instead he's got a piss slow 22, utterly negative. I'm not even sure this England team will try and get the 231 runs tommorow...
    Whatever happens - need weather for the draw.

    Fancy England to win this 4s tempting.
    Despite myself, I do too. Starting with Moeen and Root gives me a bit of confidence - should be a good crowd in for the start of the school holidays. Who knows?
    My grandsons don't break up until Wednesday otherwise I would take them.

    Stokes needs some runs, just hope he and Broad play their natural gamr.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    FalseFlag said:

    Omnium said:

    Intrigued as to what Cameron may say tomorrow.

    If he's brave (and if the facts are as they seem) he'll lay in to Putin in a big way. The Russians need to be forced to acknowledge their culpability, and hopefully the absurd adventurism that doesn't belong in this century will be halted.

    I'm even more intrigued as to what Ed might say - as he seems to be resurrecting the policies of yesteryear (railways) he's become somewhat tricky to anticipate.

    Well so far the US has overthrown a democratically elected government, imposed sanctions on Russia (an act of war) when Russia was in no way assisting the rebels in Donestk and Lugansk, has refused to recognise the result of Crimea's vote for independence, encouraged the Kiev government to not agree to the Russian and European negotiated ceasefire thus initiating the recent bloodshed, sought to block the building of the South Stream pipeline that would provide secure transit for gas bypassing Ukraine which recently agreed to end restrictions on foreign (ie. US firms) ownership allowing a 49% stake and cheered on the bombing of civilians areas as well as use of paramilitary forces on civilian populations resulting in the deaths of hundreds.

    I see little choice is being presented to the Russian or rebel leadership and I expect them to continue to react in the rational manner they have so far. If the US and Kiev government continue on their current path there will be only one outcome and I am amazed very few European leaders have told the Americans to back off.
    "Russia in no way assisted the rebels......" Do you work for Russia Today?

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    HE TIMES: Damning US intelligence pits Putin in the dock
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited July 2014
    HYUFD said:

    The Iraq intervention now looks like a mistake in the first place and it was of course the elected Maliki who refused to make any concessions to Shias. In Syria, Assad is now sadly the best obstacle to Isis

    Its a bit late to call it a mistake now, its done. Question is what to do now.

    Assad is no obstacle to ISIS, he has failed to stop them establishing a decent pockets of territory. They've done more fighting against other insurgents than they've done against Assad's troops. Thats one reason why Al Qaeda came out against them, they also suggested ISIS was doing Assad's work for him.

    If you want to deal with a situation you engage with it.

    Agreed on Maliki. Guy is a joke and good luck to him, I'd not bother. The man is effectively an elected dictator in his approach to the Sunni minority.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the Premier League and Championship. I suppose they in turn are waiting for as much as possible of the summer transfer business to be concluded.
    Fans of Statto (aka Angus Loughran) may be interested to learn that he rates QPR with 32 points and Hull City with 33 points to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined to agree, I'm decidedly less sure about his forecast of Leicester finishing in 10th place with 46 points. Should you share his confidence however, those nice people at Bet365 are offering best odds of 9/2 on the Foxes achieving a top half finish.

    I'm loathe to bet on QPR - I can see them having an interesting transfer window, they do have a tendency to spend silly money at the end of windows.
    Personally I will be astonished if QPR don't get relegated - I expect them to finish plumb bottom, not least because they were exceptionally fortunate to have been promoted last season, when they were certainly not the 3rd, 4th or even 5th best side. Fortunately for them they had a good first half to the season but tailed off alarmingly towards the end, flooking the play-off final.

    Yes, I've heard of Matchbook but wouldn't use them personally - I've seen them promoted aggressively on betting sites which puts me off. Plus I rather take the view that if Betfair, Betdaq and Ladbrokes all believe that it costs 5% comm'n on winning bets to operate an exchange, then it probably can't be run at 20% of that level of commission.
    How does the expression go? If it sounds too good to be true ..........
    Thanks
    Can you answer this please? I think if will be useful in understanding GE polling

    In the. Euros Ukip scored 27.5%

    Mike believes AIFE cost them 1.5%

    This would mean 29% intended to vote ukip

    ICM had Ukip at 25%, YouGov at 27%

    These numbers are used to rebuff claims by Kippers that ICM and YG understate UKIP "they were the most accurate at the euros"

    But if Mike is correct, and Ukip were denied 1.5% by AIFE, then those pollsters were no more accurate than TNS(31%) or Opinium (32%)

    So either Mike was wrong about the AIFE effect, or it is wrong to claim ICM. And YG were closest with the Euro results

    So to believe ICM & YG. Are the most accurate in regards to ukip, and writing off Opinium and TNS, while forgetting about AIFE could lead to bad bets next GE
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Well ultimately Iraqis have to determine their own future and for good or ill Mailiki is their elected leader.

    The only possible course in Syria for intervention is some arms supplies to moderates like the FSA, no direct action should be taken against Assad
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:



    Can you answer this please? I think if will be useful in understanding GE polling

    In the. Euros Ukip scored 27.5%

    Mike believes AIFE cost them 1.5%

    This would mean 29% intended to vote ukip

    ICM had Ukip at 25%, YouGov at 27%

    These numbers are used to rebuff claims by Kippers that ICM and YG understate UKIP "they were the most accurate at the euros"

    But if Mike is correct, and Ukip were denied 1.5% by AIFE, then those pollsters were no more accurate than TNS(31%) or Opinium (32%)

    So either Mike was wrong about the AIFE effect, or it is wrong to claim ICM. And YG were closest with the Euro results

    So to believe ICM & YG. Are the most accurate in regards to ukip, and writing off Opinium and TNS, while forgetting about AIFE could lead to bad bets next GE

    At a minimum you are only adjusting one side of the equation: if you believe that all the AIFE votes should be "allocated" to UKIP then you should also allocated whatever ICM predicted for AIFE to their UKIP prediction.

    Additionally, I think you are making a mistake allocating it all - for instance, I believe @Alanbrooke was considering voting AIFE because he didn't like UKIP or any of the major parties. So there are some voters for AIFE that were not mistaken votes for UKIP.

    However, I'm always dubious about arguments that X votes for a party were in error, so I'd question the assumption of the 1.5% anyway.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325
    Disappointed none of the main TV channels or the free-to-air movie channels are showing Valkyrie on the 70th anniversary of the von Stauffenberg plot to kill Hitler.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Well ultimately Iraqis have to determine their own future and for good or ill Mailiki is their elected leader.

    The only possible course in Syria for intervention is some arms supplies to moderates like the FSA, no direct action should be taken against Assad

    Personally I'd not back Maliki as an individual at all.

    Again the West had its chance earlier on before the extremists got in, they washed their hands and indeed stymied other countries doing it. What people forget is that the Syrian insurgency didn't start off with Islamic militants all pre-packaged and in-country. It was a peoples' uprising.

    I see the Dutch Air Force is on its way to collect the bodies and is landing into what is a contested region to do so. Within the Dutch government there is reportedly a thread of thinking that isn't content to let this one go passively. Whether something of an active ever sees the light of day is another story.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Sunil It was on Channel 5 I believe a few months ago
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2014
    @isam

    It depends on your definition of cost, I think it's wrong to assume everyone who voted AIFE made a mistake and were really Kippers.

    Pollsters asked people others, if you look at that, both ICM and YouGov got the others (excluding the top 4 right) 16% vs 16.31%

    They weren't just asking about the top 4, the greens, the nats and the bnp, they asked for others.

    Additionally, the ICM final phone poll had UKIP on 26% (it was the online ICM poll that had them on 25%)

    To understand polling (and it keeps on adapting) look at the overall trend, a while back pollsters were generally underestimating UKIP, now they're generally overestimating them (as we saw at the Euros and Newark)

    I think Mike's other metric for judging accuracy isn't just to get the most accurate share for one party, but the spread.

    Mike Smithson

    @LewisBotfield See chart showing final EP2014 polls gap between top 3 parties & what happened. ICM & YouGov best

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BskFSv9IIAAhLaj.jpg

    The other thing I would say is, it was disappointing we only had one phone pollster doing any polls on the Euro.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    @isam - if you have any other queries and questions, i'll answer them in the morning, I'm off to bed.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Yokel Well maybe, but the Iraqis gave his party most votes so that is up to them, hopefully his party will dump him for someone willing to reach out to Sunnis

    Whether ISIS would have taken over had Assad been toppled who knows, it is not in our direct interest to topple Assad

    The Dutch will obviously not intervene militarily against the Russians, though increased sanctions are on the cards
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    isam said:

    O/T

    Footy Betting
    I'm waiting patiently for the spread-betting firms to post up their season's points spreads for the s to finish as the bottom pair in the Premier League. These may be backed at best odds of 2/1 (various) and 3.2/1 (Ladbrokes) respectively for the drop. Although I'm inclined

    I'm loathe to bet on QPR - I can see them having an interesting transfer window, they do have a tendency to spend silly money at the end of windows.
    Personally I will be astonished if QPR don't get relegated - I expect

    Yes, I've heard of Matchbook but wouldn't use them personally - I've seen them promoted aggressively on betting sites which puts me off. Plus I rather take the view that if Betfair, Betdaq and Ladbrokes all believe that it costs 5% comm'n on winning bets to operate an exchange, then it probably can't be run at 20% of that level of commission.
    How does the expression go? If it sounds too good to be true ..........
    Thanks
    Can you answer this please? I think if will be useful in understanding GE polling

    In the. Euros Ukip scored 27.5%

    Mike believes AIFE cost them 1.5%

    This would mean 29% intended to vote ukip

    ICM had Ukip at 25%, YouGov at 27%

    These numbers are used to rebuff claims by Kippers that ICM and YG understate UKIP "they were the most accurate at the euros"

    But if Mike is correct, and Ukip were denied 1.5% by AIFE, then those pollsters were no more accurate than TNS(31%) or Opinium (32%)

    So either Mike was wrong about the AIFE effect, or it is wrong to claim ICM. And YG were closest with the Euro results

    So to believe ICM & YG. Are the most accurate in regards to ukip, and writing off Opinium and TNS, while forgetting about AIFE could lead to bad bets next GE
    AIFE got 1.43% of the vote - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom)
    Presumably Mike is (if you represent his views correctly) rounding up and then saying that virtually every single vote for AIFE was by mistake for Ukip. A very bold assumption surely? The BNP got over 1% of the vote on their own merits as it were and without being mistaken for anyone else. Why shouldn't most, or at least half, of AIFE votes have been intended for AIFE? I think given that voters put the x on the ballot paper the onus is on Mike to show that they did not intend to vote for AIFE. Evidence for this might be e.g.that they were unknown to the public, did no canvassing, had no policies etc etc.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Yokel Well maybe, but the Iraqis gave his party most votes so that is up to them, hopefully his party will dump him for someone willing to reach out to Sunnis

    Whether ISIS would have taken over had Assad been toppled who knows, it is not in our direct interest to topple Assad

    The Dutch will obviously not intervene militarily against the Russians, though increased sanctions are on the cards

    ISIS wouldnt, they simply dont have the numbers to control the state.

    Absolutely they voted Maliki, they can be stuck with him. He can't even keep the Shias onside, there has been outbursts of factional violence in recent weeks amongst Shia groups and Maliki turned the army on those that didn't like him.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Labour rules out immediate public spending increase

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28389816

    Wasn't that the new labour trick.

    This is only on 'day to day' spending. They have said nothing about what they will spend on what they term 'investment'

    Which is still spending - and as far as anyone can tell will be paid for by borrowing.

    So they will put up taxes and put up borrowing and put up spending.

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Charles said:

    isam said:



    Can you answer this please? I think if will be useful in understanding GE polling

    In the. Euros Ukip scored 27.5%

    Mike believes AIFE cost them 1.5%

    This would mean 29% intended to vote ukip

    ICM had Ukip at 25%, YouGov at 27%

    These numbers are used to rebuff claims by Kippers that ICM and YG understate UKIP "they were the most accurate at the euros"

    But if Mike is correct, and Ukip were denied 1.5% by AIFE, then those pollsters were no more accurate than TNS(31%) or Opinium (32%)

    So either Mike was wrong about the AIFE effect, or it is wrong to claim ICM. And YG were closest with the Euro results

    So to believe ICM & YG. Are the most accurate in regards to ukip, and writing off Opinium and TNS, while forgetting about AIFE could lead to bad bets next GE

    At a minimum you are only adjusting one side of the equation: if you believe that all the AIFE votes should be "allocated" to UKIP then you should also allocated whatever ICM predicted for AIFE to their UKIP prediction.

    Additionally, I think you are making a mistake allocating it all - for instance, I believe @Alanbrooke was considering voting AIFE because he didn't like UKIP or any of the major parties. So there are some voters for AIFE that were not mistaken votes for UKIP.

    However, I'm always dubious about arguments that X votes for a party were in error, so I'd question the assumption of the 1.5% anyway.
    I have no idea, and made no guess at what AIFE cost ukip, it was Mike that said it was 1.5%

    What iam saying is, that if Mike, not me remember, is right with that 1.5%, it can't make sense to say ICM and YG were the most accurate, because you would have to add 1.5% to UKIPs score! and that would next they were not the most accurate

    Mike makes both claims, but one contradicts th either so both can't be right
This discussion has been closed.