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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Sunday Times YouGov findings on the reshuffle, Michael

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Sunday Times YouGov findings on the reshuffle, Michael Gove, free schools, the “bedroom tax” and leaving the ECHR

YouGov poll finding on more women being in the cabinet pic.twitter.com/mGRDtJiNr7

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,697
    First. I should learn to sleep in on a Sunday morning!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2014
    The 13-16 question must have a lot of don't knows.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,697
    I suspect it’s one of those policies which people support in general but not when it applies to someone they know, or in a case which is brought to their attention.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    TGOHF said:

    The 13-16 question must have a lot of don't knows.

    Or more likely couldn't give a damn.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    I'm encouraged by the findings on the Lib Dem u-turn. If we want evidence based policy, we need to allow parties to change their mind
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    The Telegraph has the results of a survey on the reshuffle carried out by ORB International.

    Not sure they are members of the British Polling Council however ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10978470/Poll-David-Camerons-reshuffle-boosts-Tories.html
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Lovely day ahead hopefully.

    The current bun is out, Open golf, Lords test match and some rather fast horseless carriages bimbling around a German forest ....

    And to cap it all I'm cooking rack of lamb of lunch .... that will also involve a trip to the wine cellar.

    A quiet Sunday at home .... I've had worse.

    As for polls .... trolls dolls and chocolate rolls .... away with you for the day.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good morning, everyone.

    Abysmal timing (not that there's ever a good time) with computer issues. Going to leave a few accounts untouched for a few days, just in case. If there's no more problems then I'll return to normal service for Hungary.

    I was going to simply not post a pre-race piece or put it up here [if that wouldn't be considered obnoxious], but think having it as a comment to the pre-qualifying piece makes more sense. Assuming I can find a tip, of course.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov

    As this is a stronger Labour VI, we expect that to reflect in the subsidiaries.

    On questions regarding EDM's leadership and the Labour VI response only:

    47% of Labour VI say it is clear what he stands for whilst 45% say it is not:
    22% says he is a strong leader, 33% say weak and 40% say neither
    41% says he is decisive and 35% say indecisive, rest DK or don't care.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: seems there's still no word on whether Hamilton starts 15th or from the pit lane.

    If he's 15th he could be up to 10th by the end of lap 1. If from the pit lane he may struggle to make up more than a couple of places (but would have the advantage of altering the set-up).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Hmm. Is there a way to know how the odds of something changed on Betfair? I want to tip something with a hedge, but I'm not backing it myself (I stay away from money-related accounts when worried about computer stuff).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited July 2014
    F1: bit rough. Hamilton's got a 5 place grid penalty after needing to change his gearbox after the crash.

    So, that's 20th or pit lane.

    Edited extra bit: that's via Twitter, not yet 'properly' confirmed, but a gearbox change and penalty was noted as possible yesterday.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    To veer on-topic, briefly, I was amused by Sky's take on the reshuffle and polling. It was presented as bad news, but the pieces of polling mentioned were (approximate numbers):
    55% reckoned the reshuffle was done for presentational reasons (style over substance)
    56% were glad Gove went
    59% believed it was a step in the right direction

    So, 2/3 pieces were actually positive for the Government...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Morning all :)

    My first chance to comment for a few days. My impression of the re-shuffle is that it has brought forward a tranche of 40-somethings with whom I don't have the least in common. I read about Nicky Morgan and she comes over as suffocatingly "nice" rather than nasty.

    On the other hand, I saw Esther McVey's dreadful interview where she was berating the poor interviewer for not allowing her to say her party piece and taking one part of the unemployment figures out of context. Clearly, it's a dreadful hotbed of Leftie journalism on Sky these days.

    More controversially, I've long been of the view that the Cameron-Osborne relationship is in private far worse than in public and indeed I suspect Cameron is trying to ensure Osborne doesn't have such a firm grip on Cabinet and the Party in advance of a leadership election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Sri Lanka 206-8 - Anyone follow me in laying SL/backing SA ?

    Should have backed the Saffers tbh but it was madness the SL price was less than SA price.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Betting Post

    Tipping Magnussen at 3.05 for a top 6 finish, hedged at 1.5 (I'll need someone to let me know whether the hedge gets matched, unless he does finish top 6, obviously, in which case it clearly will).

    Not backing this myself, as mentioned below, for annoying technical reasons. (Same thing happened at Spain).

    I'll put up the 'piece' shortly, as a comment to the pre-qualifying article.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @stodge

    Esther McVey still seems like a presenter rather than a politician. Most politicians are uncomfortable "off piste", but she is petrified, and comes across badly for quite a large section of the public.
    Being easier on the eye than many others, may not be the advantage Cam was looking for unless she improves rapidly.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Hmm. Is there a way to know how the odds of something changed on Betfair? I want to tip something with a hedge, but I'm not backing it myself (I stay away from money-related accounts when worried about computer stuff).

    Not really sure what you are asking but on Betfair (exchange) you can click the graph icon for price history, or you can watch the odds comparison sites.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: pre-race thoughts up as comments, here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/germany-pre-qualifying.html

    Do hope someone puts up a hedge on Magnussen...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited July 2014
    Mr. L, I'll be offline during the race, so I won't be able to check comparison sites. Unsure about the graph (may be online shortly after the race).

    I just want to know if the 1.5 hedge on Magnussen gets matched.

    Edited extra bit: as an aside, Germany is the first race that counts as the second half of the season. If I do a mid-season review it'll cover Australia to the UK. If the Russian Grand Prix is cancelled it'll be two halves of 9 races, if not, a first of 9 and a second of 10.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561
    TGOHF said:

    The 13-16 question must have a lot of don't knows.

    The other answers are "Tory team was strong before and still strong" 14%, "weak before and still weak" 28% and 29% DK.

    Another interesting one was "Which leader do you trust most, Cameron or Miliband?" 32% chose DC, 27% EM, 34% neither, 7% DK. Lots of questions on policy areas without surprises - DC trusted most on the economy, defence and law and order, EM most on NHS and schools. Overall neither showing a decisive vote-switching advantage, especially as it's so polarised - 3% of Labour voters trust DC most, 0% of Tories trust EM most. That's another indication of why plugging the leadership question isn't shifting the polls.

    Vinny: lol. Welcome to the forum, but you need to be a bit more subtle in your prejudices if you want to persuade anyone...

  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR. Not sure it will help the Tories if they have more EU sceptic cabinet ministers. They don't want to turn the 2015 election into being about EU membership, as that could just increase UKIP votes, which could hurt the Tories more.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Superb captaincy from Hashim Amla in his first test in charge.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    It would appear the papers reporting on the downed Malaysian plane have moved into the mawkish phase – all very depressing stuff.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Political speeches do not often get published in full these days, do they?

    Over on Lib Dem Voice they have published in its entirety a speech by Tim Farron.

    I should be interested to hear how non-Lib Dem liberals react to it, if they have the time to read it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: grid penalty for Hamilton confirmed, seems he'll start from the pit lane, so it may well be academic:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/28390245
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2014

    TGOHF said:

    The 13-16 question must have a lot of don't knows.

    The other answers are "Tory team was strong before and still strong" 14%, "weak before and still weak" 28% and 29% DK.

    Another interesting one was "Which leader do you trust most, Cameron or Miliband?" 32% chose DC, 27% EM, 34% neither, 7% DK. Lots of questions on policy areas without surprises - DC trusted most on the economy, defence and law and order, EM most on NHS and schools. Overall neither showing a decisive vote-switching advantage, especially as it's so polarised - 3% of Labour voters trust DC most, 0% of Tories trust EM most. That's another indication of why plugging the leadership question isn't shifting the polls.

    Vinny: lol. Welcome to the forum, but you need to be a bit more subtle in your prejudices if you want to persuade anyone...

    NPXEMP you were hardly subtle when you were trying to smear one of the new Tory ministers about religion.. It was patently obvious what you were trying to do. Of course you would never have brought religion into if it had been a Muslm Minister talking about his/her faith and that's why it was a deliberate and rather nasty smear..

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    To veer on-topic, briefly, I was amused by Sky's take on the reshuffle and polling. It was presented as bad news, but the pieces of polling mentioned were (approximate numbers):
    55% reckoned the reshuffle was done for presentational reasons (style over substance)
    56% were glad Gove went
    59% believed it was a step in the right direction

    So, 2/3 pieces were actually positive for the Government...

    Yes, it's an unfortunate/fortunate fact that the general population get their news from the BBC and SKY and cant tell fact from fiction. As these news outlets always support the establishment you can guess who benefits most.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    PClipp said:

    Political speeches do not often get published in full these days, do they?

    Over on Lib Dem Voice they have published in its entirety a speech by Tim Farron.

    I should be interested to hear how non-Lib Dem liberals react to it, if they have the time to read it.

    Looks to me like he is setting out his stall for the post Clegg, post current-coalition leadership.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I see Bercow is doing his bit to improve his popularity.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2698719/MICHAEL-FABRICANT-What-REALLY-happened-foul-mouthed-Speaker-told-loved-colleague-f-Bercow-go.html

    Sounds like he is even more unpleasant than I imagined.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov

    Thinking about the wider leadership teams in the main
    parties, the cabinet and shadow cabinet, which party do
    you think has the stronger team?

    Cons:38 (ConVI 91%, LAB VI;8%; LDVI:45%; UKIPVI:44%)
    LAB:25 (ConVI:1%; LABVI: 66%; LDVI: 14%; UKIPVI: 17%)
    DK: 38; (ConVI: 8%; LABVI: 26%; LDVI: 41%; UKIPVI:40%)

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2014

    It would appear the papers reporting on the downed Malaysian plane have moved into the mawkish phase – all very depressing stuff.

    Cameron:
    "We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent."
    https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211

    If I've got this right the principles are that Germany should stop buying gas and France should stop selling warships, but Britain shouldn't do anything that would be bad for the City of London.

    Also the EU is supposed to make a relationship with Ukraine, but obviously they can't let Ukraine actually _join_ the EU because the Tories don't like enlargement any more, as it would potentially let in more immigrants.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    It would appear the papers reporting on the downed Malaysian plane have moved into the mawkish phase – all very depressing stuff.

    Cameron:
    "We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent."
    https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211

    If I've got this right the principles are that Germany should stop buying gas and France should stop selling warships, but Britain shouldn't do anything that would be bad for the City of London.

    Also the EU is supposed to make a relationship with Ukraine, but obviously they can't let Ukraine actually _join_ the EU because the Tories don't like enlargement any more, as it would potentially let in more immigrants.

    Edmund, you know perfectly well that Peebie Tories are always right about everything and everybody else deserves a good hiding.

    Mind you, you're not as bad as Nick Palmer supposing that anyone comes on here on a mission to persuade rather than merely ventilating. Keep working on it!

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    Why a local Bill? I can just see the opinion poll question - "who do you trust more to protect your human rights - politicians or judges?"

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    It only seems like a few weeks ago Iraq was on the verge of being overrun by the marauding barbaric mob.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Tokyo, seems fair. The EU never does anything to reform France's lovely CAP, Germany enjoys an artificially low exchange rate thanks to the single currency, and the FTT has been designed to harm the UK's financial interests despite us not implementing it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Urquhart, you probably heard the story but Mosul is now Christian-free for the first time ever, apparently.

    ISIS issued a demand and a deadline, stating Christians could convert, pay protection money, or be killed. As a result, those remaining have fled.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Smithson, human rights is now a term so broad as to be meaningless. It's applied to North Korean concentration camps and the inability to deport a convicted murderer to Italy because he can't speak Italian.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    The 41% probably includes almost all of UKIP - Hence the strategy.

    Obviously it would be madness for Labour to follow as all the 2010 Lib Dem -. Labour switchers are probably overwhemingly in the 38%
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    I'm not sure that much of Labour's WWC bedrock has any time for "human rights" - what they want are the privileges that others have.

    Anyway, that's me for to-day. See you all to-morrow, DV...

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    Replacing the ECHR with partisan bill straight out if the darkest bowels of CCHQ is pretty terrifying. Where next will the executive look to remove restraints on its power?
  • Mr. Smithson, human rights is now a term so broad as to be meaningless. It's applied to North Korean concentration camps and the inability to deport a convicted murderer to Italy because he can't speak Italian.

    And an American crack dealer because he relies on the NHS.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    John Curtice

    "One certainly anticipates that UKIP support will fall from the levels it’s currently at, which is around 15 per cent. It’s been running around levels way above 2010 and we have to remember this happens against a backdrop – already in 2010, we had an all-time record level of support for parties other than the Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats. The hold of our conventional parties on the electorate has never been weaker, and therefore the argument that one hears from many a Tory is: ‘well, you may not like us terribly much but you hate Labour even more, therefore you’re going to vote for us.’ I mean frankly for today’s electorate it just isn’t going to wash with enough people. They actually have got to be pulled back positively.

    We’re looking at an electorate that’s more willing to experiment, even for Westminster elections. There just seems to be enough people out there, for whom at the end of the day. I mean again, something that’s very very different is that we’ve probably never had a period when all three Westminster party leaders have been basically unpopular. There’s always been somebody to shine, at least a degree of popularity. We have at the moment two deeply unpopular party leaders and a PM who’s seen as no more than treading water, as average. He’s basically popular amongst Tories."


    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/five-minutes-with-john-curtice-part-3/?utm_content=bufferbad8a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    It only seems like a few weeks ago Iraq was on the verge of being overrun by the marauding barbaric mob.

    It still is, the war in Syria's west between Assad and rebel forces other than ISIS continues, the South Sudanese Civil War and Central African Republic conflicts still continue - just because something isn't in thbe news doesn't mean its not happening.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014
    Is it just me, or has Obama reaction to the shooting down of the plane been absolutely pathetic?

    I was never an Obama evangelist, like some deluded souls that thought he would overturn the US political system overnight, but he was clearly the better candidate each time.

    But he seems totally lost on what to do about world issues, he was bounced into Libya by Clinton (who was briefed by the spooks that it had to happen and weeks of indecision) and then was bounced over his red line on Syria only to reverse ferret.

    And I'm not saying he should go around like Bush Jnr looking to get involved in wars all over the world, but could you imagine Reagan reaction to this basically going "well somebody has been a bit naughty, what a terrible tragedy, next question"...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    It would appear the papers reporting on the downed Malaysian plane have moved into the mawkish phase – all very depressing stuff.

    Cameron:
    "We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent."
    https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211

    If I've got this right the principles are that Germany should stop buying gas and France should stop selling warships, but Britain shouldn't do anything that would be bad for the City of London.

    Also the EU is supposed to make a relationship with Ukraine, but obviously they can't let Ukraine actually _join_ the EU because the Tories don't like enlargement any more, as it would potentially let in more immigrants.

    I was referring to the media coverage of the deaths of 298 innocent men, women and children. The pictures of personal items strewn about the crash site and the heart rending stories affecting those family members left behind.

    I have no idea what you are waffling about or why.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561

    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    It only seems like a few weeks ago Iraq was on the verge of being overrun by the marauding barbaric mob.

    Yes, it's a striking feature of Middle East conflict that nothing seems to happen for long periods and then there's a sudden push. Partly this is a feature of our butterfly media, I think - unless something big is happening, they can't be bothered to tell us that this town or that has changed hands - and to be fair it's a long way away so it might not mean much to us to learn that town X had shifted. But also it reflects the medieval flavour of some of the conflicts - the leaders are working with ramshackle coalitions of doubtful loyalty, varying willingness to move and supplied by shaky networks, and any significant move needs to be very carefully considered and prepared.

    But if Yokel or others do have more info, it'd be interesting. What's happning in Syria while all this is going on?

    <

    NPXEMP you were hardly subtle when you were trying to smear one of the new Tory ministers about religion.. It was patently obvious what you were trying to do. Of course you would never have brought religion into if it had been a Muslm Minister talking about his/her faith and that's why it was a deliberate and rather nasty smear..

    Pooh, I think my total "smear" was to quote what she said, note that it was an indirect quote (so might not be accurate) and add "Hmm." If that's what you call nasty, you must find reading PB a very trying experience. But yes, I'd feel the same about a Muslim Minister who brought his faith into the job description. I'm fine with ministers believing whatever they like about religion - who knows for sure who's right, after all? But we are de facto a largely secular society and Ministers do not represent lots of us when they bring their specific religion to bear on their intended actions. (Prince Charles was in effect expressing a similar reservation when he said he'd like to be a defender of faiths, rather than "the faith". )

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    LDs - the party that want an unqualified Belgian to decide if a foreign rapist can live next door to you and get free healthcare.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    NPEXMP

    You might have felt it, but you wouldn't have said it because we all know how difficult it is where faiths are concerned , except of course if its the Church OF England and a Tory MP where its open season..

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    TGOHF said:

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    LDs - the party that want an unqualified Belgian to decide if a foreign rapist can live next door to you and get free healthcare.
    What do you reckon for the test right now ?

    +1.52 Eng/+44.57 India/+0.78 Draw

    Looking at the draw price of 5.1/5.2 and it seems short but dunno whether to lay it... hmm.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    It only seems like a few weeks ago Iraq was on the verge of being overrun by the marauding barbaric mob.

    Actually it never was. There was doubt that they were actually going to even attempt to take Baghdad in a hurry though certainly they were going towards it. Then you had the rest of the country. In short there are 3-4 areas considered frontlines in a traditional war sense
    (the North where the Kurds are doing the fighting and certainly where some of the most consistent shooting is going on, around Tikrit, Ramadi, Samarra and Muqdadiya where the Iraqi army and Shia milita are) where combat continues with no significant advances either way. If you take a look at a map they'll suggest a crescent of a frontline nearest Baghdad.

    Actions, however, are occuring in a wider number of areas including out as far as the Eastern border with Iran.

    ISIS themselves have gone back to an old tradition of sending out the car bombs into the capital, again something predicted as they go about harassment exercises but thats a far as action direct on Baghdad is going for the immediate time.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Jonathan, I share your concerns. Any British Bill of Rights would, I fear, end up being very skewed politically (which way depending on who happens to be in power). I lack confidence that freedom of speech would be asserted anywhere near strongly enough, regardless of who is in government and drafting it.

    That said, many human rights rulings seem to vary from perplexing to deranged. Prisoners getting the vote is insane.

    Mr. Urquhart, Obama's stance on various foreign policy matters could be seen as soft, but also legitimate. However, on Syria he has been utterly pathetic. He stated the red line, consensus was (and the US view was) that it was crossed, and he didn't do anything.

    As an aside, I'm astounded Assad's not merely survived but seems to actually be gaining ground. If Gadaffi hadn't broadcast his intention to commit genocide I wonder if he'd still be ruling Libya.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    LDs - the party that want an unqualified Belgian to decide if a foreign rapist can live next door to you and get free healthcare.
    What do you reckon for the test right now ?

    +1.52 Eng/+44.57 India/+0.78 Draw

    Looking at the draw price of 5.1/5.2 and it seems short but dunno whether to lay it... hmm.
    Draw price looks too short.

    No of wickets per day

    9, 7, 8,

    Unless less than 6 fall today it is very unlikely to be a draw.

    First session wickets decide the test just about. England need 3+ . I don't like their price at all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    Y0kel said:

    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    It only seems like a few weeks ago Iraq was on the verge of being overrun by the marauding barbaric mob.

    Actually it never was. There was doubt that they were actually going to even attempt to take Baghdad in a hurry though certainly they were going towards it. Then you had the rest of the country. In short there are 3-4 areas considered frontlines in a traditional war sense
    (the North where the Kurds are doing the fighting and certainly where some of the most consistent shooting is going on, around Tikrit, Ramadi, Samarra and Muqdadiya where the Iraqi army and Shia milita are) where combat continues with no significant advances either way. If you take a look at a map they'll suggest a crescent of a frontline nearest Baghdad.

    Actions, however, are occuring in a wider number of areas including out as far as the Eastern border with Iran.

    ISIS themselves have gone back to an old tradition of sending out the car bombs into the capital, again something predicted as they go about harassment exercises but thats a far as action direct on Baghdad is going for the immediate time.


    Thanks Yokel.

    I take it from what you say that the Iraqi forces have regrouped and organised some what (used in a very loose sense, as I doesn't sound like command and control is very strong) and that the Kurds are obviously holding up their area.

    In your opinion, are we in for a long drawn out bloody stalemate for the foreseeable future or will ISIS (with the supposed money / captured resources) look to push on at some point?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    The swimming pool with a seven-hour wait to get in

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28373344

    A really interesting and revealing article.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Right, I am off until after the F1. If somebody could follow my tip and hedge (Magnussen's top 6 odds have marginally lengthened to 3.1, hedge at 1.5) to let me know if the hedge gets matched that would be tremendously appreciated [it also has the off-chance of making you some money].
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Right, I am off until after the F1. If somebody could follow my tip and hedge (Magnussen's top 6 odds have marginally lengthened to 3.1, hedge at 1.5) to let me know if the hedge gets matched that would be tremendously appreciated [it also has the off-chance of making you some money].

    I've minbet it on Betfair as a tracker for you.
  • Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    edited July 2014
    The main features of any reshuffle are the sackings/resignations of a few politicians that the general public have, to some extent, actually heard of (if only vaguely in some cases) and their replacement by a few more politician that have never previously hit the general publics' radar at all.

    So it's hardly too surprising, on that alone, that more people think the reshuffle has made ministerial team weaker than stronger. Nor is it too surprising that so very few people have an opinion on the question at all. This also links into the question of whether or not the women promoted are there on merit or just because Cameron wants more women in government - hard for people to honestly say that they think they are there on merit if they've never really heard of them. Likewise for the males promoted too I would guess.

    It always amuses me when opinion pollsters ask people questions that they're extremely unlikely to hold any real opinions on. I've not heard so much as one person in my circle of friends, family or work colleagues mention the reshuffle as a topic of conversation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Laying the draw at 3.95 on Betfair in the test - crazily short with 180 overs left
  • macisbackmacisback Posts: 382
    Really surprised Top Man finds another way to have a dig at Gove.

    In reality in terms of the end result of improving standards and knowledge in our youngsters it will be years until we know whether the real huge changes in curriculum and examination Gove has made are a success.

    I suspect he is aware of this but can't resist the opportunity after the humbling demotion Gove received last week. I suspect though if Cameron uses the obvious assets Gove has cleverly in the campaign, his party might laugh a little more quietly.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    Thanks Yokel.

    I take it from what you say that the Iraqi forces have regrouped and organised some what (used in a very loose sense, as I doesn't sound like command and control is very strong) and that the Kurds are obviously holding up their area.

    In your opinion, are we in for a long drawn out bloody stalemate for the foreseeable future or will ISIS (with the supposed money / captured resources) look to push on at some point?
    The latest big story on ISIS is that they cleansed Mosul of Christians: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28381455

    Recently ISIS have seized a Syrian gas field, and an Iraqi refinery. The question is, who would buy oil from ISIS and thus help to fund them?
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/isis-seizes-gas-field-in-syria-defeats-iraq-forces-near-tikrit/article/391089

    Sadly, I doubt they will lack for customers. Israel has reportedly already been buying Iraqi oil smuggled through Turkey from Kirkuk (that has been captured by pro-independent Kurdistan forces): http://nsnbc.me/2014/06/27/israel-buys-smuggled-iraqi-oil-joins-u-s-push-for-kurdish-state/

    The war has been quite equally balanced, with a major battle over Tikrit, which is not under either side's overall control. ISIS continues to commit horrific war crimes wherever it goes. Iraq is being helped by Iran and Russia (they have been carrying out airstrikes with Russian jets), ISIS is a Saudi proxy (Prince Abdul Rachman al-Faisal is the supreme commander of ISIS), so they are being supported by them: http://nsnbc.me/2014/06/15/isis-unveiled-identity-insurgency-syria-iraq/

    The US will not intervene to do anything against ISIS -ISIS are fulfilling US strategic ambitions in the region -namely the balkanisation of Iraq to prevent Iran's 'Shia crescent'. They haven't even delivered the F-16s that Iraq has bought and paid for.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    TBF the idea seems to be that you still have the same human rights, since they'd still in the convention, and you'd still have an enforcement mechanism, since they'd make their own law, but it wouldn't involve a funny foreign court. This doesn't sound like a good idea to me but it may not go down too badly with the voters.

    I imagine Lib and Lab will base their opposition on the effect withdrawal will have on other foreign governments, rather that on the fact that you can't trust the British parliament and courts to protect your human rights.
  • hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    What you highlight here Mike is the power of deception. In politics you call something by its opposite - The Democratic People's Republic of Korea, National Socialism, the Ministry of Education, etc. ECHR....I let you decide.

    When I become dictator I shall do so on the back of the overwhelming electoral success of my party -the fluffy cuddly bunny rabbit wouldn't hurt a fly growth and progress party for the psychologically normal. Of course the usual useful idiots will be among the first against the wall.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    PClipp said:

    Political speeches do not often get published in full these days, do they?

    Over on Lib Dem Voice they have published in its entirety a speech by Tim Farron.

    I should be interested to hear how non-Lib Dem liberals react to it, if they have the time to read it.

    Farron lost me at this point:
    Small government means weak citizens
    That's an assertion that I do not accept.

    However, I think he makes sense when he talks about housing and (much less importantly, it's just an area I've worked in) broadband provision. I'm less sure about the practicalities of a living wage, but can't say I've given it much thought.

    Combating climate change leaves me cold (ahem!), especially given Farron's hyperbole on the subject. I think energy security is far more important, and we can go some way to address greenhouse gas emissions as a worthy byproduct of a focus on our energy security.

    In summary, a curate's egg of a speech.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    Is it just me, or has Obama reaction to the shooting down of the plane been absolutely pathetic?

    I was never an Obama evangelist, like some deluded souls that thought he would overturn the US political system overnight, but he was clearly the better candidate each time.

    But he seems totally lost on what to do about world issues, he was bounced into Libya by Clinton (who was briefed by the spooks that it had to happen and weeks of indecision) and then was bounced over his red line on Syria only to reverse ferret.

    And I'm not saying he should go around like Bush Jnr looking to get involved in wars all over the world, but could you imagine Reagan reaction to this basically going "well somebody has been a bit naughty, what a terrible tragedy, next question"...

    What exactly do you expect Obama to 'do'? Hit the nuclear button before culpability has even been established? Do you actually have any idea what that would mean? You sound like Con Coughlin after a liquid lunch.

    We have Obama's cowardice (personally I would call it the remnants of a conscience) to thank for the fact that Syria is still under the control its secular dictator, not under ravening wahhabi hordes. Do you think that any citizen of Syria would swap and live in 'liberated' Libya?
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @surbiton


    'Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !'

    Not even Churchill envisaged that key judgments would be made by totally unqualified loons.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    Laying the draw at 3.95 on Betfair in the test - crazily short with 180 overs left

    Broad bowling some utter filth this morning.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    It's easy to whine about Obama's and Europe's response to the Ukraine crisis, but hands up who sincerely thinks they could fight - and win - a land war in Russia.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    Mr. Smithson, human rights is now a term so broad as to be meaningless. It's applied to North Korean concentration camps and the inability to deport a convicted murderer to Italy because he can't speak Italian.

    It was remarkable to see a Palestinian "human rights advocate" appear on TV in Gaza saying that their human rights should be respected. Under the Hamas regime is freedom of speech tolerated? Is it possible to demonstrate against the government?

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    perdix said:

    Mr. Smithson, human rights is now a term so broad as to be meaningless. It's applied to North Korean concentration camps and the inability to deport a convicted murderer to Italy because he can't speak Italian.

    It was remarkable to see a Palestinian "human rights advocate" appear on TV in Gaza saying that their human rights should be respected. Under the Hamas regime is freedom of speech tolerated? Is it possible to demonstrate against the government?

    No, but just because their government doesn't respect their human rights that doesn't mean we shouldn't.
  • TGOHF said:

    hucks67 said:

    hucks67 said:

    Would not surprise me if Dominic Grieve left the government because he did not agree with Tory policies, such as wanting to leave ECHR.

    Is that the actual policy, or is that just the general mood music while the actual policy is not to be content with the ECHR?
    Yes I think leaving the ECHR and having a UK bill for Human Rights is the Tories policy from 2015 onwards.
    The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan

    LDs - the party that want an unqualified Belgian to decide if a foreign rapist can live next door to you and get free healthcare.
    Nice one TGOHF, if a little clumsy.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    perdix said:

    Mr. Smithson, human rights is now a term so broad as to be meaningless. It's applied to North Korean concentration camps and the inability to deport a convicted murderer to Italy because he can't speak Italian.

    It was remarkable to see a Palestinian "human rights advocate" appear on TV in Gaza saying that their human rights should be respected. Under the Hamas regime is freedom of speech tolerated? Is it possible to demonstrate against the government?

    Probably not. Probably not. On the other hand, they don't get their houses and property destroyed and friends killed by Hamas air strikes very often, which seems like a reasonable objection, n'est-ce pas?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    EPG said:

    It's easy to whine about Obama's and Europe's response to the Ukraine crisis, but hands up who sincerely thinks they could fight - and win - a land war in Russia.

    A better question might be: who thinks the West can impose meaningful sanctions when Russia controls Eastern Europe's gas supply?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    EPG said:

    It's easy to whine about Obama's and Europe's response to the Ukraine crisis, but hands up who sincerely thinks they could fight - and win - a land war in Russia.

    A better question might be: who thinks the West can impose meaningful sanctions when Russia controls Eastern Europe's gas supply?
    Well quite - military intervention is out of the question and those that wish to impose sanctions from within the EU will quickly find that Russia has the upper hand.

    I expect we will hear much huffing and puffing from world leaders, but will see no tangible action from anyone.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Is it just me, or has Obama reaction to the shooting down of the plane been absolutely pathetic?

    I was never an Obama evangelist, like some deluded souls that thought he would overturn the US political system overnight, but he was clearly the better candidate each time.

    But he seems totally lost on what to do about world issues, he was bounced into Libya by Clinton (who was briefed by the spooks that it had to happen and weeks of indecision) and then was bounced over his red line on Syria only to reverse ferret.

    And I'm not saying he should go around like Bush Jnr looking to get involved in wars all over the world, but could you imagine Reagan reaction to this basically going "well somebody has been a bit naughty, what a terrible tragedy, next question"...

    Nothing scares me more than the thought of Clinton in the White House, a hybrid of the worst neo con and lefty interventionisms nonsenses. Remember it was Billiary who ignored George F. Kennan's advise not to expand NATO due to the inevitable results we see today for domestic political purposes to appear tough. Obama's problem is when he has allowed the 'deep state' to bounce him into positions he didn't want, did he know what Nuland was up to? I doubt it.

    Actually Reagan was a pragmatist with his conciliatory moves to the Soviet Union and his biggest regret was sending the Marines into Lebanon.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited July 2014
    O/T Question:

    UK Political Dynasties: Labour have the Blairs, Benns, Kinnocks. Tories have Johnsons, Rees-Moggs. Who do the Lib Dems have? Any multiple generations of MPs/prospective MPs yet?

    EDIT: Not sure the Rees-Moggs count, but you get the point.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Laying the draw at 3.95 on Betfair in the test - crazily short with 180 overs left

    Broad bowling some utter filth this morning.
    2 wickets, draw out to 9.8/10 which is probably about right...

    Eng +11.02, Draw +54.07, Draw -28.68

    Draw back into 6.4/6.6 - nothing has happened...

    England go from 1.8 -> 2.2 on a single 4 to India... riiiiiiiiiight
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    The Telegraph has the results of a survey on the reshuffle carried out by ORB International.

    Not sure they are members of the British Polling Council however ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10978470/Poll-David-Camerons-reshuffle-boosts-Tories.html

    Yes, see http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/officers-members/. They are part of Gallup.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Quincel said:

    O/T Question:

    UK Political Dynasties: Labour have the Blairs, Benns, Kinnocks. Tories have Johnsons, Rees-Moggs. Who do the Lib Dems have? Any multiple generations of MPs/prospective MPs yet?

    EDIT: Not sure the Rees-Moggs count, but you get the point.

    Seven generations of the Sinclair family have served in Parliament (all but Viscount Thurso's father Robin who served in the Lords) as MP's in favour of the Whig, Liberal and Liberal Democrat parties.



  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154

    If only real life was like govt policy eh?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681287/NHS-blows-millions-boob-jobs-facelifts-Taxpayers-foot-bill-cosmetic-surgery-doubles-ten-years.html
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:

    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154

    If only real life was like govt policy eh?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681287/NHS-blows-millions-boob-jobs-facelifts-Taxpayers-foot-bill-cosmetic-surgery-doubles-ten-years.html
    You appear to be confusing real life with things that you read in the Daily Mail.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154

    If only real life was like govt policy eh?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681287/NHS-blows-millions-boob-jobs-facelifts-Taxpayers-foot-bill-cosmetic-surgery-doubles-ten-years.html
    You appear to be confusing real life with things that you read in the Daily Mail.
    1.01 weighs in, so predictable you would say that

    Lefty takes state propaganda over real life, nothing changes

    Are you saying the people in the article don't exist? They didn't get free cosmetic surgery? Jeremy hunt and the tax alliance are lying?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Jadeja could win the game for India here, India get to 300 and its very very difficult for England.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    With all that is going on, it seems the spread of ISIS seems to have completely disappeared from the news agenda. Those that are in the know, what is going on?

    Thanks Yokel.

    I take it from what you say that the Iraqi forces have regrouped and organised some what (used in a very loose sense, as I doesn't sound like command and control is very strong) and that the Kurds are obviously holding up their area.

    In your opinion, are we in for a long drawn out bloody stalemate for the foreseeable future or will ISIS (with the supposed money / captured resources) look to push on at some point?
    ISIS and their Sunni Tribal associates will seek to move forward but they have already had their own internal conflicts. They are not natural bedfellows.

    Longer term though its not considered a singular objective of ISIS itself to take over Iraq. Their proposed Caliphate only takes in part of Iraq.

    The Iraqi forces, bolstered by both local and foreign militias have indeed regrouped, but their performance hasn't been great so far. They may show a decent success in Muqdadiya where they have an opportunity to push ISIS out of the town. In other places though they have most definitely not regained any substantial tracts of lost ground.

    One final note about ISIS, their funding and in particular the wholly ignorant parrot line that occasionally gets trotted out about the West having somehow created them in Syria.

    On the first, yes they do have external funding but in fact their biggest single source of funding is themselves. ISIS origins were in Iraq where they built up a typical black market & gun barrel forced business empire worth millions upon millions. These guys have an acute sense of funding and raking in the cash. The idea that its another Saudi prodigy is also over done. Is there Saudi funding? Some but its not officially state sanctioned these days. A notable funding source is out of Kuwait.

    The latter is wholly false, end of statement.

    ISIS existed in Iraq for years before they rocked up in Syria. The Maliki government had no problems letting them move across the border to Syria thinking that it was handily getting rid of a problem. The Iraqi government and indeed Western intelligence was well aware of the movement of the Sunni radicals at the time. That its bit Maliki in the arse very much his own fault.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    If only real life was like govt policy eh?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681287/NHS-blows-millions-boob-jobs-facelifts-Taxpayers-foot-bill-cosmetic-surgery-doubles-ten-years.html
    You appear to be confusing real life with things that you read in the Daily Mail.
    1.01 weighs in, so predictable you would say that

    Lefty takes state propaganda over real life, nothing changes

    Are you saying the people in the article don't exist? They didn't get free cosmetic surgery? Jeremy hunt and the tax alliance are lying?
    I expect the people in the article are actual people, I doubt that their stories are as described in the Daily Mail. I think this because occasionally they've written about something I know about or I've taken the time to look at the sources they quote and I've found they're constantly full of shit. This is true of a lot of newspaper reporting, but it's especially true of the Daily Mail. Seriously, if your default reaction on reading something in the Daily Mail is to assume it's true, you're going to get very, very badly misled. Their job is not to inform, it's to either entertain or cause an emotional outrage response, and they're very good at it.

    Presumably there are some people out there who have managed to lie their way into getting treatment they shouldn't be getting for various reasons, but that's a constant feature of healthcare systems. A policy wonk like Beveridge would certainly have expected it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    243-7 (Effectively), advantage India I reckon.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    perdix said:

    surbiton said:

    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson

    'The Tories - the party that wants to take away your human rights. Great slogan '

    If it proves popular then only a matter of time before Clegg jumps on the bandwagon.

    Even the Tories will not "implement" this. Its all bluster.

    Churchill proposed the ECHR. Leftie !
    If Churchill had been able to forsee the abuse enabled by the ECHR he would not have approved of it. It was intended as a bulwark against the evils of Fascism and Communism but has become the criminal's friend.

    The welfare state was set up to prevent the poor starving and dying from a lack of health treatment, not for boob jobs, tattoo removal, etc

    Beveridge would probably think he'd created a monster if he could see what's become of his safety net
    Here's the NHS policy on tattoo removal and boob jobs, what specific bits do you think Beveridge would have disagreed with?
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2567.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/890.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154
    If only real life was like govt policy eh?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681287/NHS-blows-millions-boob-jobs-facelifts-Taxpayers-foot-bill-cosmetic-surgery-doubles-ten-years.html
    You appear to be confusing real life with things that you read in the Daily Mail.
    ?
    I expect the people in the article are actual people, I doubt that their stories are as described in the Daily Mail. I think this because occasionally they've written about something I know about or I've taken the time to look at the sources they quote and I've found they're constantly full of shit. This is true of a lot of newspaper reporting, but it's especially true of the Daily Mail. Seriously, if your default reaction on reading something in the Daily Mail is to assume it's true, you're going to get very, very badly misled. Their job is not to inform, it's to either entertain or cause an emotional outrage response, and they're very good at it.

    Presumably there are some people out there who have managed to lie their way into getting treatment they shouldn't be getting for various reasons, but that's a constant feature of healthcare systems. A policy wonk like Beveridge would certainly have expected it.
    Jesus how patronising could you be?

    The fact is that if you say you are depressed you can get a nose job/boob job/tattoo removed on the Nhs for free, and so people do just that

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    MikeK said:
    Funny, I thought it was another death for Palestinians weekend.

    The take from Israel.

    'In a special interview on CNN Wednesday night, Economics Minister Naftali Bennett said that incidents such as the killing of four children on a Gaza beach earlier Wednesday were entirely the fault of Hamas – and were no accident. “I think it is terrible that Hamas is butchering its own children like this.... Hamas is conducting massive self-genocide, taking women and children and placing them next to missile launchers."'

    http://tinyurl.com/pburmz5

    'I think it is terrible that Hamas is butchering its own children like this'

    Let that one roll around your brain for a few minutes, destroying cells, bursting blood vessels & burning out synapses on the journey.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:


    Jesus how patronising could you be?

    The fact is that if you say you are depressed you can get a nose job/boob job/tattoo removed on the Nhs for free, and so people do just that

    I can't really think of a non-patronizing way to put this. The fact is that the Daily Mail isn't particularly factual. You think it is, so you believe a lot of things that aren't true.

    FWIW, here's a piece looking at some of the numbers the Mail used in that piece.
    https://fullfact.org/health/daily_mail_nhs_cosmetic_surgery_doubled-33759
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    MikeK said:
    Funny, I thought it was another death for Palestinians weekend.

    The take from Israel.

    'In a special interview on CNN Wednesday night, Economics Minister Naftali Bennett said that incidents such as the killing of four children on a Gaza beach earlier Wednesday were entirely the fault of Hamas – and were no accident. “I think it is terrible that Hamas is butchering its own children like this.... Hamas is conducting massive self-genocide, taking women and children and placing them next to missile launchers."'

    http://tinyurl.com/pburmz5

    'I think it is terrible that Hamas is butchering its own children like this'

    Let that one roll around your brain for a few minutes, destroying cells, bursting blood vessels & burning out synapses on the journey.

    Israel is completely out of control. It is a TERROR STATE.
This discussion has been closed.