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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Say hello to the Lilac Tories

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Say hello to the Lilac Tories

Squaring circles is part of the business of politics.  One such conundrum David Cameron has to face is how to simultaneously make the party he leads more appealing to centrist floating voters while also attracting back those who’ve defected to UKIP.  On the face of it, those are two incompatible objectives:

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  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Lilac? What's that? Purple (UKIP)? Or pink (gay/women)? Or both? The term "Lilac Tories" is too obscurantist and idiosyncratic that it is confusing more than it is enlightening. First!
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    There needs to be a continuing and on-going frenziedly clangorous and invigorating struggle against the ossified and gerontocratic entrenched nincompoopism and hystericalism of the old order and the ancien régime, to continue the onward advance of properlyism and normalism, in order to vanquish once and for all the intrepid obfuscatory intrigues of those who are impertinent enough to think that they might want to vote Labour or UKIP. Second!
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    edited July 2014
    (OT) James Milne Wilson, premier of Tasmania from 1896 to 1872, died on his 17th birthday
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Milne_Wilson
    Third!
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Great article again David. I like your 'lilac Tories' phrase.

    Incidentally, the moment it was announced that Michael Gove will have a greater media role for the election I thought it was untrue and offered to appease him. Come January I think Tory management will try and ensure Gove does not feature in the media any more than absolutely necessary.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 904
    JohnLoony said:

    (OT) James Milne Wilson, premier of Tasmania from 1896 to 1872, died on his 17th birthday
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Milne_Wilson
    Third!

    Presumably as his premiership went backwards it was 1896 BC.
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    Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    JohnLoony said:

    (OT) James Milne Wilson, premier of Tasmania from 1896 to 1872, died on his 17th birthday

    Sir James Milne Wilson, KCMG (29 February 1812 – 29 February 1880) served as Premier of Tasmania from 1869 to 1872://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Milne_Wilson


  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    TGOHF said:
    And we all know how the Hollande plan is working and how loathed he is by the French Electorate.
  • Options
    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?
  • Options
    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    My goodness our resident Loony is in sparkling form this morning. John why don't you just say that all male government ministers should be appointed in accordance with their Loony factor i.e. how physically attractive you find them. Might lead to a bit of squabbling in front of the bathroom mirrors of course!!
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Might be interesting to run a book on how much she will get - customers shouldn't be made to suffer because of a vendor's error: equally, they shouldn't pretend to be more naïve than they are... perhaps they deserve each other.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Having more female voices in the media will help the tories only if those voices are credible and substantive. Given that some of the promoted posts are taking over quite near an election that is a challenge. The likes of Ms Morgan have a lot of work to do.

    But the standard that they will be compared to is poor. Ed is now starting to pay the price of keeping that blank sheet of paper. The Shadow Cabinet seems directionless and hamstrung by the inability to promise more money. Without the promise of money to solve every problem they need to be able to engage their tory counterparts in substance and they are very poorly placed to do that.

    To take the example of education what is Labour's policy prescription? I think they oppose any expansion of free schools but they seem content to let those created remain. They are opposed to teachers without a formal training qualification being able to teach. They seem to think Academies have gone far enough, possibly too far. What are they for?

    New Labour, which Ed seems to want to distance himself from, was at least initially quite tough on education. We had league tables, an emphasis on discipline in schools and of course the start of the Academy program. If league tables and obsessive testing is not the answer to the urgent need to raise school standards what is?

    Tristram Hunt will not be so easily mocked in the Commons as he was by Gove but he still needs positive things to say. It is also noteworthy that he is the 4th shadow education Secretary in 4 years. The difference with Gove, who was shadow for 3years before he took office and knew (rightly or wrongly) exactly what he wanted to do is stark.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good morning, everyone.

    No Lib Dem/Labour reshuffle yet. I wonder if/when we'll see them.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Is it too soon to declare Ed's big speech today a disaster for Labour?

    Another QTWTAIN.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT
    Charles said:

    Ask Yokel. A huge part of the problem in Northern Ireland is that both the Catholics and the Unionists viewed themselves as minorities (in N Ireland / Ireland respectively)

    I think that's the psychology of it spot on.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    The difficulty about late reshuffles - regardless of the qualities of the people involved - is that they don't allow time to show any real or purported changes in direction. At most they avoid embarrassing resignations if one goes too far with a policy change.

    We overestimate the impact of Westminster changes. I really doubt if most people will have remembered anything at all about the reshuffle except that Gove was demoted (and even that will only have vaguely registered). Will voters be subliminally influenced by hearing Nicky Morgan now and then announcing, say, a new curriculum change?
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    Having more female voices in the media will help the tories only if those voices are credible and substantive. Given that some of the promoted posts are taking over quite near an election that is a challenge. The likes of Ms Morgan have a lot of work to do.

    But the standard that they will be compared to is poor. Ed is now starting to pay the price of keeping that blank sheet of paper. The Shadow Cabinet seems directionless and hamstrung by the inability to promise more money. Without the promise of money to solve every problem they need to be able to engage their tory counterparts in substance and they are very poorly placed to do that.

    To take the example of education what is Labour's policy prescription? I think they oppose any expansion of free schools but they seem content to let those created remain. They are opposed to teachers without a formal training qualification being able to teach. They seem to think Academies have gone far enough, possibly too far. What are they for?

    New Labour, which Ed seems to want to distance himself from, was at least initially quite tough on education. We had league tables, an emphasis on discipline in schools and of course the start of the Academy program. If league tables and obsessive testing is not the answer to the urgent need to raise school standards what is?

    Tristram Hunt will not be so easily mocked in the Commons as he was by Gove but he still needs positive things to say. It is also noteworthy that he is the 4th shadow education Secretary in 4 years. The difference with Gove, who was shadow for 3years before he took office and knew (rightly or wrongly) exactly what he wanted to do is stark.

    Right now, probably the most urgent thing is to create sufficient school places -- and to be quite cynical, that is the sort of thing that can be easily promised.
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    MrJones said:

    FPT

    Charles said:

    Ask Yokel. A huge part of the problem in Northern Ireland is that both the Catholics and the Unionists viewed themselves as minorities (in N Ireland / Ireland respectively)

    I think that's the psychology of it spot on.
    Same thing for Israel/Palestine, of course, mutatis mutandis.

    There's a victim lurking inside all of us, alas. (Unless we're megalomaniacs, of course - not that there could ever be any of those on this board. Could there?)

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Is it too soon to declare Ed's big speech today a disaster for Labour?

    Another QTWTAIN.

    Is it too soon to declare the 2014/15 season disappointing for Spurs?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    The only shuffling you will here at the moment on the Labour benches is of feet. They must be getting worried about Ed being so bonkers, just as much as they were about Gordon..
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    "It would be wrong to claim that Cameron’s cabinet changes were entirely a marketing exercise."

    It would?

    I'd say it was entirely marketing thus summing up the root political problem - the key policies e.g. unlimited mass immigration, Europhilia, Banksterism, creation of a police state etc are fixed outside the democratic process leaving the political parties with just scraps to try and differentiate themselves with and political pantomimes to make up the shortfall.

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    The difficulty about late reshuffles - regardless of the qualities of the people involved - is that they don't allow time to show any real or purported changes in direction. At most they avoid embarrassing resignations if one goes too far with a policy change.

    We overestimate the impact of Westminster changes. I really doubt if most people will have remembered anything at all about the reshuffle except that Gove was demoted (and even that will only have vaguely registered). Will voters be subliminally influenced by hearing Nicky Morgan now and then announcing, say, a new curriculum change?

    True, though as DavidL says, the Shadow Cabinet's four year, self-imposed omerta means Labour is in the same situation even without a reshuffle.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,012
    JohnLoony said:

    (OT) James Milne Wilson, premier of Tasmania from 1896 to 1872, died on his 17th birthday
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Milne_Wilson
    Third!

    Surely someone who is born on 29 February should celebrate all their subsequent birthdays on 1 March?

  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    edited July 2014
    It was interesting how many people noticed the reshuffle: 17% according to Populus, which is very high for a positive politics story (Maria Miller got 20% recognition back in April):

    twitter.com/PopulusPolls/status/490105976268521472
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    FPT

    Charles said:

    Ask Yokel. A huge part of the problem in Northern Ireland is that both the Catholics and the Unionists viewed themselves as minorities (in N Ireland / Ireland respectively)

    I think that's the psychology of it spot on.
    Same thing for Israel/Palestine, of course, mutatis mutandis.

    There's a victim lurking inside all of us, alas. (Unless we're megalomaniacs, of course - not that there could ever be any of those on this board. Could there?)

    Well if projection is correct they'd be easy to spot.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Labour's problem is unlimited mass immigration is economic warfare on a large chunk of their vote but they've trapped themselves into supporting it cos PC.

    So all they can do is rely on the Cameroons losing which they were until *maybe* they were saved by all the BRIC oligarch money flooding in although it's too early to say what all the consequences of that might be. (It might turn out to be a bad thing in the end e.g. house prices.)

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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    Good morning, everyone.

    No Lib Dem/Labour reshuffle yet. I wonder if/when we'll see them.

    You mean like Tim Farron to LOTO, Simon Hughes to Shadow Home Sec and Vince Cable to Shadow Chancellor? :) I wonder what is going through the heads of Orange Book LibDems who are Tories in all but name, despair of the mood music coming out of the likes of Farron Hughes and Cable and face the ultimate irony of losing their seats next year to their Tory opponents!!
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @JackW

    "Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others."

    How long and how many lives did it take the UK to learn?
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited July 2014
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    That is not an answer that would impress anyone in the Foreign Office (or the State Department).

    The bullying analogy is specious - or, to follow it through, we are just another child in the playground. We have no locus, any more than we did - to pick an example at random - when Sri Lanka seceded from India.

    The problem is, of course, that there is no teacher. It is not solved by our pretending to that status.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    So we now have the following:

    (1) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias talking about having shot down a plane

    (2) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias saying that they've discovered the plane they shot down was civilian

    (3) Tweets by the Russian-backed militias boasting of downing the plane that then got rapidly deleted when it emerged it was a civilian one

    (4) A Putin press conference where he claimed that responsibility lay not with those who shot down the plane or those providing them weaponry, but the country it happened over. This would mean the UK was responsible for Lockerbie

    (5) The Russian government editing Wikipedia articles to claim Ukrainian soldiers were involved

    (6) The Russian-backed militias refusing to allow international observers and investigation teams to the site of the crash

    Hundreds of regular people have had their lives snatched from them because they went on holiday. Many leading experts on AIDS/HIV have been killed all at once, causing the global effort against the disease to take a real hit. And all because the despot Putin recklessly handed over weaponry to extremist thugs. And for what motive? To pursue his neo-imperialist dream of ressurecting the Soviet Union. The man is just a callous, evil dictator, that cares first and foremost about his own power and that of the corrupt state he reigns over, and doesn't give a damn about how many lives are destroyed in that quest.

    So how does Europe respond? Press releases stating outrage? A few travel bans on a handful of Russian figures? Economic sanctions on things worth a few percent of Russian exports?

    A tap on the wrist won't do here. This is a Lusitania-style event and Putin is playing Europe for fools. We need full sanctions on Russian gas exports and a blocking of the Dardanelles. That will bring Russia to its knees. If Cameron and the Eurocrats want to show European co-operation is good for something now is the time.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    Obama is doing everything he can - it's the EU leaders holding him back. The US does not import much from Russia, so the economic sanctions he has put on won't do much. If the EU put those sanctions on Russian gas, Russia would be sent into deep recession. The weakness is those European leaders that care more about a few months of high gas prices than enforcing international law and containing the imperialist Putin regime.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344

    The only shuffling you will here at the moment on the Labour benches is of feet. They must be getting worried about Ed being so bonkers, just as much as they were about Gordon..

    Generally speaking in terms of elections, politicians worry about being behind in the polls, and not much else. They also worry about policies, of course, but it's not quite as existential. That said, as we saw with Labour in 2009 and the Tories and especially LibDems now, the usual thought process is "Can I realistically change it by anything I do myself? No? Oh well, head down and get on with it."

  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Socrates said:

    So we now have the following:

    (1) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias talking about having shot down a plane

    (2) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias saying that they've discovered the plane they shot down was civilian

    (3) Tweets by the Russian-backed militias boasting of downing the plane that then got rapidly deleted when it emerged it was a civilian one

    (4) A Putin press conference where he claimed that responsibility lay not with those who shot down the plane or those providing them weaponry, but the country it happened over. This would mean the UK was responsible for Lockerbie

    (5) The Russian government editing Wikipedia articles to claim Ukrainian soldiers were involved

    (6) The Russian-backed militias refusing to allow international observers and investigation teams to the site of the crash

    Hundreds of regular people have had their lives snatched from them because they went on holiday. Many leading experts on AIDS/HIV have been killed all at once, causing the global effort against the disease to take a real hit. And all because the despot Putin recklessly handed over weaponry to extremist thugs. And for what motive? To pursue his neo-imperialist dream of ressurecting the Soviet Union. The man is just a callous, evil dictator, that cares first and foremost about his own power and that of the corrupt state he reigns over, and doesn't give a damn about how many lives are destroyed in that quest.

    So how does Europe respond? Press releases stating outrage? A few travel bans on a handful of Russian figures? Economic sanctions on things worth a few percent of Russian exports?

    A tap on the wrist won't do here. This is a Lusitania-style event and Putin is playing Europe for fools. We need full sanctions on Russian gas exports and a blocking of the Dardanelles. That will bring Russia to its knees. If Cameron and the Eurocrats want to show European co-operation is good for something now is the time.

    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    That is not an answer that would impress anyone in the Foreign Office (or the State Department).

    The bullying analogy is specious - or, to follow it through, we are just another child in the playground. We have no locus, any more than we did - to pick an example at random - when Sri Lanka seceded from India.

    The problem is, of course, that there is no teacher. It is not solved by our pretending to that status.
    We have far more relative power to follow through with containment now than during the Cold War. At the time the USSR was of similar economic might to the United States, and half of Europe was on their side. Now the US economy is seven times the size of Russia, and the EU even larger, with all nations in it in the Western camp. The only reason for a weaker West now is one of will.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Smarmeron said:

    @JackW

    "Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others."

    How long and how many lives did it take the UK to learn?

    Far more than it should have done because it took us so long to learn.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,012

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    The bullying analogy is specious - or, to follow it through, we are just another child in the playground. We have no locus, any more than we did - to pick an example at random - when Sri Lanka seceded from India.
    When did that happen then? Ceylon was always a separate Crown Colony and gained its own independence in 1948. Maybe we should take lessons from someone with a slightly greater knowledge of history.

    But then it's not surprising you are such an ignoramus, given that you seek to support Putin's colonialism and irredentism.

    Preventing Russian reoccupation of eastern Europe is of course in our interests, don't forget it has land borders with Nato members and there are substantial Russian-speaking minorities in some of them.

    Personally I would ban all direct flights to Russia, given Putin's casual attitude to civil air safety.

  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    The reason neocons are trying to provoke a war with Russia is de-dollarization.

    Since the US off shored their industrial economy US military power now relies on keeping the dollar as reserve currency and maintaining the petrodollar.

    The downside of this for other countries is it means the US exports inflation.

    So Russia/China have been moving away from the dollar and petrodollar and that ball is now reaching escape velocity as other countries join in.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332882/China-Russia-abandon-dollar-new-bilateral-trade-agreement.html

    (The media are mostly ignoring the China aspect to make it look like it's just Putin.)

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/15/us-china-usa-asean-idUSKBN0FK0CM20140715

    So basically the US has to scare Russia into stopping the de-dollarization or they lose sole superpower status.

    (Of course they could avoid the risk of starting WWIII and just rebuild their economic base instead but the banksters are too greedy to do that.)


  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Bringing Russia to its knees won't end in fighting? I'll be kind and say you haven't thought this through than what I really think.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited July 2014

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    The bullying analogy is specious - or, to follow it through, we are just another child in the playground. We have no locus, any more than we did - to pick an example at random - when Sri Lanka seceded from India.
    When did that happen then? Ceylon was always a separate Crown Colony and gained its own independence in 1948. Maybe we should take lessons from someone with a slightly greater knowledge of history.

    But then it's not surprising you are such an ignoramus, given that you seek to support Putin's colonialism and irredentism.

    Preventing Russian reoccupation of eastern Europe is of course in our interests, don't forget it has land borders with Nato members and there are substantial Russian-speaking minorities in some of them.

    Personally I would ban all direct flights to Russia, given Putin's casual attitude to civil air safety.

    I apologise: I confused Ceylon's renaming itself with the secession of Bangla Desh from Pakistan.


  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    Why are we not projecting all this clout that UK keep telling us Scotland gets the benefit of as a union benefit. The emperor has no clothes , quelle surprise.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995
    Socrates said:

    So we now have the following:

    (1) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias talking about having shot down a plane

    (2) Radio calls between the Russian-backed militias saying that they've discovered the plane they shot down was civilian

    (3) Tweets by the Russian-backed militias boasting of downing the plane that then got rapidly deleted when it emerged it was a civilian one

    (4) A Putin press conference where he claimed that responsibility lay not with those who shot down the plane or those providing them weaponry, but the country it happened over. This would mean the UK was responsible for Lockerbie

    (5) The Russian government editing Wikipedia articles to claim Ukrainian soldiers were involved

    (6) The Russian-backed militias refusing to allow international observers and investigation teams to the site of the crash

    Hundreds of regular people have had their lives snatched from them because they went on holiday. Many leading experts on AIDS/HIV have been killed all at once, causing the global effort against the disease to take a real hit. And all because the despot Putin recklessly handed over weaponry to extremist thugs. And for what motive? To pursue his neo-imperialist dream of ressurecting the Soviet Union. The man is just a callous, evil dictator, that cares first and foremost about his own power and that of the corrupt state he reigns over, and doesn't give a damn about how many lives are destroyed in that quest.

    So how does Europe respond? Press releases stating outrage? A few travel bans on a handful of Russian figures? Economic sanctions on things worth a few percent of Russian exports?

    A tap on the wrist won't do here. This is a Lusitania-style event and Putin is playing Europe for fools. We need full sanctions on Russian gas exports and a blocking of the Dardanelles. That will bring Russia to its knees. If Cameron and the Eurocrats want to show European co-operation is good for something now is the time.

    Cameron will stay behind the sofa and depend on sycophants like JackW to bring him tea. Big on bluster , not so hot on action unless it is someone else doing it for them. They prefer to lead from the back.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Smarmeron said:

    @JackW

    "Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others."

    How long and how many lives did it take the UK to learn?

    In WWII about 6 years and hundreds of thousands of lives.

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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    saddened said:

    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Bringing Russia to its knees won't end in fighting? I'll be kind and say you haven't thought this through than what I really think.
    Given the corrupt system Russia rules over is only held in place by a handful of pro-Putin oligarchs continuing to make a lot of money, if you hit their bank balances they'll start bringing serious pressure on the Kremlin. In addition, the public has such frustrations with the corruption in the country, that if their lives start getting a lot harder, they will demand relief.

    Astute observers of this situation will notice that Putin still maintains deniability about the militias he is backing. That means he has left himself an out to save face if he wants to back down. Thus we should allow him to take that out. He could easily turn round now and seal the border and stop providing support for these thugs. Then we de-escalate.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    What strong thing do you think Obama should be doing, specifically?
    Convene an emergency meeting of NATO and accept Ukraine and Moldova as full members should they wish.

    To which Putin replies with an atmospheric nuclear test. What would you do next, Jack?

    Within the limits of international law what Putin does within the Russia is up to the government and people of Russia.

    What he does outwith Russia isn't.

    Not effectively dealing with bullies, whether in the playground or the international stage only leads to one thing - more bullying.

    Some nations take longer to learn the lesson than others.

    That is not an answer that would impress anyone in the Foreign Office (or the State Department).
    Rather makes my case.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all – and thanks to Mr Herdson, for yet another fine article.

    Slightly off topic – to date something in the order of 55 MPs from the three major parties have declared they will be standing down at the next election – the figure strikes me as unusually high, but is this a ‘record’ in modern times?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125



    Personally I would ban all direct flights to Russia, given Putin's casual attitude to civil air safety.

    Ban Aeroflot from all international airports - make it a domestic carrier. You want to fly out of Russia? Then you use a foreign carrier, who will add a $50 charge to your flight, to go to the families of the bereaved. We'll revisit this sanction in 5 years....

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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:

    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Bringing Russia to its knees won't end in fighting? I'll be kind and say you haven't thought this through than what I really think.
    Given the corrupt system Russia rules over is only held in place by a handful of pro-Putin oligarchs continuing to make a lot of money, if you hit their bank balances they'll start bringing serious pressure on the Kremlin. In addition, the public has such frustrations with the corruption in the country, that if their lives start getting a lot harder, they will demand relief.

    Astute observers of this situation will notice that Putin still maintains deniability about the militias he is backing. That means he has left himself an out to save face if he wants to back down. Thus we should allow him to take that out. He could easily turn round now and seal the border and stop providing support for these thugs. Then we de-escalate.
    So not bring Russia to its knees, good you're starting to think.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Lol - Clearly a palp.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The mind of an ex-KGB man, Putin, will ignore all protests and sanctions. In fact most of the EZ zone is too reliant on Russian gas to support sanctions. He has got them over a barrel and they know it.

    Expect more requests from old-Soviet bloc countries for more Nato presence near their borders with Russia but that is as far as it will go.
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    An interesting debate here on PB today with Socrates and others.

    Clearly Russia is a country that is not overly wedded to international norms and has something of the 'rogue state' about it. And their leader is a very naughty boy.

    Russia's great power and its absolute weakness comes in two forms: Energy and demographics.

    If Europe wanted to it could move towards replacing its dependence on Russia for energy. But that would mean embracing nuclear and fracking and all the things the watermelons cry themselves to sleep about. So for example Germany has a profound choice to make - and right now they seem happier being dependent on Russia than on managing their own energy future. If we are to 'bring Russia to its knees' (even if that is a good or desirable thing) the route to achieving it is via energy policy.

    Unless we just want to wait. Russia is dying. And drunk. And running out of money.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Surely if the error is by a recognised representative of the company they have to pay? It is the same as if somone mistakenly advertises something at a fraction of its real value. If that is the advertised price then the vendor has to honour it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Actually that Gran has still managed to get the wrong odds - if S&D have copied out 6.00 from the terminal then the correct odds are 5-1, not 6-1 !
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Surely if the error is by a recognised representative of the company they have to pay? It is the same as if somone mistakenly advertises something at a fraction of its real value. If that is the advertised price then the vendor has to honour it.
    A vendor very rarely has to honour it.

    They don't have to honour any prices in shop windows, or on the goods in aisles.

    Nor, even if she surmounts that hurdle, is she entitled to "snap up" goods at a price she knows to be completely wrong. Difficult to argue that she thought Germany were legitimately 600/1 to win.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    O/T A savage and very accurate attack on Cameron from Charles Moore in today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10976479/To-get-on-in-Camerons-government-dont-be-brave-like-Gove-and-Co.html
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Peter Kellner on the reshuffle

    "This week, David Cameron should have decided for himself who was best person to be Education Secretary, not whom the public liked or disliked. Instead he surrendered that judgement because a general election is just nine months away. His decision might backfire, if it ends up being seen as a craven abdication of leadership.

    Over time, YouGov will track Cameron’s fortunes in the run-up to next spring’s campaign. If the Prime Minister loses ground because of what he has done, he will be in no position to complain. Those who live by the polls must be prepared to die by the polls."


    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/peter-kellner/cabinet-reshuffle-should-the-polls-decide-politics-michael-gove-education-secretary
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Surely if the error is by a recognised representative of the company they have to pay? It is the same as if somone mistakenly advertises something at a fraction of its real value. If that is the advertised price then the vendor has to honour it.
    The rules don't apply to bookmakers. It would be easy to change the law -- in which case betting shops would need to put in place the same precautions against staff error common in other sectors -- but there are no votes in it.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: Raikkonen's car may not be ready for qualifying, I think (just put the online commentary on).
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    O/T A savage and very accurate attack on Cameron from Charles Moore in today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10976479/To-get-on-in-Camerons-government-dont-be-brave-like-Gove-and-Co.html

    Portillo said much the same on a This Week
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    The sooner the Kiev government and its US backers accept that the people of the Donbass do not wish to be ruled over by others the sooner the bloodshed will end.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    isam said:

    Peter Kellner on the reshuffle

    "This week, David Cameron should have decided for himself who was best person to be Education Secretary, not whom the public liked or disliked. Instead he surrendered that judgement because a general election is just nine months away. His decision might backfire, if it ends up being seen as a craven abdication of leadership.

    Over time, YouGov will track Cameron’s fortunes in the run-up to next spring’s campaign. If the Prime Minister loses ground because of what he has done, he will be in no position to complain. Those who live by the polls must be prepared to die by the polls."


    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/peter-kellner/cabinet-reshuffle-should-the-polls-decide-politics-michael-gove-education-secretary

    On the other hand, the public say they want conviction but tend to vote for populism. Cameron is more likely to be rewarded than punished by them.
  • Options
    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:

    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Socrates said:

    saddened said:


    Shall I send you the address of your nearest recruiting office? Or are you happy for someone else to do the fighting and dying?

    Everything I have said is achievable without any fighting. So spare me your self-righteous Russian apologism.
    Bringing Russia to its knees won't end in fighting? I'll be kind and say you haven't thought this through than what I really think.
    Given the corrupt system Russia rules over is only held in place by a handful of pro-Putin oligarchs continuing to make a lot of money, if you hit their bank balances they'll start bringing serious pressure on the Kremlin. In addition, the public has such frustrations with the corruption in the country, that if their lives start getting a lot harder, they will demand relief.

    Astute observers of this situation will notice that Putin still maintains deniability about the militias he is backing. That means he has left himself an out to save face if he wants to back down. Thus we should allow him to take that out. He could easily turn round now and seal the border and stop providing support for these thugs. Then we de-escalate.
    I would associate the word barking rather than astute with you.
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    edited July 2014

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Surely if the error is by a recognised representative of the company they have to pay? It is the same as if somone mistakenly advertises something at a fraction of its real value. If that is the advertised price then the vendor has to honour it.
    Actually, for precisely this reason vendors don't have to honour prices in adverts, or even price-tags. These are technically known as 'invitations to treat', not an offer (the acceptance of which would be legally binding).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitation_to_treat
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,995

    Mirror running story about gran who had 600/1 bet on Germany to win World Cup with the bookies refusing to pay. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gran-refused-world-cup-payout-3881762

    There's clearly a palpable error here and she ain't going to get her money.

    Surely if the error is by a recognised representative of the company they have to pay? It is the same as if somone mistakenly advertises something at a fraction of its real value. If that is the advertised price then the vendor has to honour it.
    Richard , I do not believe they have to , they can state it was an error and not sell at the advertised price.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Patrick said:

    An interesting debate here on PB today with Socrates and others.

    Clearly Russia is a country that is not overly wedded to international norms and has something of the 'rogue state' about it. And their leader is a very naughty boy.

    Russia's great power and its absolute weakness comes in two forms: Energy and demographics.

    If Europe wanted to it could move towards replacing its dependence on Russia for energy. But that would mean embracing nuclear and fracking and all the things the watermelons cry themselves to sleep about. So for example Germany has a profound choice to make - and right now they seem happier being dependent on Russia than on managing their own energy future. If we are to 'bring Russia to its knees' (even if that is a good or desirable thing) the route to achieving it is via energy policy.

    Unless we just want to wait. Russia is dying. And drunk. And running out of money.

    Russian demographics have turned the corner since 2009. It's not dying, and it's not as drunk.

    It's certainly vulnerable to economic pressure from the West - the sanctions announced on June 17th include Gazprombank(s) plus Novatek and Rosneft. That's the real shot across Putin's bow - it's effectively excluding those firms from access to medium and long term dollar financing.
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    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    I have never thought of Cameron as a natural leader and a politician who has an ideology driving him. He was picked by the Tories, as they wanted a younger leader who could communicate in a 24/7 TV media world. I don't think there was any proper assessment of whether Cameron had all the necessary skills for the job and could therefore be a competent PM. Cameron has not been a good leader of the Tories, as he has upset a large number of its supporters who have gone over to UKIP and membership of the party is less than half what it was when he took over.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2014

    O/T A savage and very accurate attack on Cameron from Charles Moore in today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10976479/To-get-on-in-Camerons-government-dont-be-brave-like-Gove-and-Co.html

    I agree; it's an excellent article. I think history is going to be very unkind about Cameron's political nous - the reshuffle has seriously dented the government's claim to managerial competence.

    Overall, I don't think it will change the political landscape too much; it's still most likely that young Ed will be leading us into {the broad sunday uplands | the abyss }.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    I thought that Putin's response was predictable as was everyone's else.

    The Ukranian rebels - hide the evidence and claim it wasn't us guv.
    Russia - it's all fault of the Ukranian Government for not giving in to the rebels.
    Ukranian Government - Gotcha!
    The West - bugger, all that gas and easy money at risk.

    Fracking would ease our dependence on imported energy and save money. The Yanks have managed it without wiping out a proportion of the population, but the Greens would rather we froze in our nicely decorated (with organic colour) cave.

    If they'd been so strong in the 1960s, we'd have sat back and allowed Norway to take all the North Sea oil because we didn't want to endanger the oceanic creepy-crawlies.


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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    B Kumar an impeccably mannered gent in his interview with Athers

    A travesty that he didn't get MOTM in the first test
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: hmm. Hamilton 0.6s off Rosberg. Probably fuel effect. Red Bull sandbagging.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    O/T A savage and very accurate attack on Cameron from Charles Moore in today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10976479/To-get-on-in-Camerons-government-dont-be-brave-like-Gove-and-Co.html

    In fairness to Cameron he seems to have given ministers a good four meddling-free years to do what they think best and try to make it work, and only kicked them out once it was clear they were incurable electoral liabilities. Blair would have intervened as soon as he realized it was polling badly.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,012
    FalseFlag said:

    The sooner the Kiev government and its US backers accept that the people of the Donbass do not wish to be ruled over by others the sooner the bloodshed will end.

    They don't want to be ruled over by anyone? You mean they are anarchists?

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2014
    Don't think I'll be offering a tip in my pre-qualifying piece.

    If you wanted to play it safe, Rosberg's pole price on Betfair has gone down a bit.

    Edited extra bit: might be worth laying Raikkonen for top 10 on the basis he might not even make qualifying, but there's just a tenner available at evens.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    O/T A savage and very accurate attack on Cameron from Charles Moore in today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10976479/To-get-on-in-Camerons-government-dont-be-brave-like-Gove-and-Co.html

    No understanding of the electoral cycle - the time for Gove etc is next June.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: pre-qualifying:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/germany-pre-qualifying.html

    Qualifying looks quite interesting.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    hucks67 said:

    I have never thought of Cameron as a natural leader and a politician who has an ideology driving him. He was picked by the Tories, as they wanted a younger leader who could communicate in a 24/7 TV media world. I don't think there was any proper assessment of whether Cameron had all the necessary skills for the job and could therefore be a competent PM. Cameron has not been a good leader of the Tories, as he has upset a large number of its supporters who have gone over to UKIP and membership of the party is less than half what it was when he took over.

    Utter guff!! Cameron has led a coalition government which has turned the UK economy from being the laughing stock of the international markets into one of the most positive in the Western World in 4 years.

    Cameron is a classic One-nation Tory. Yes some people have gone to UKIP. As a party we miss the likes of Sean F but not many of those with more extreme views whom we are well shot of. We are yet to see what effect UKIP has on the Tories in a full scale election, not a bunch of polls. The Tories performed far better in the Euro and local government elections than the vast majority on here and the wider chatterati had expected.

    As for party membership, the Tory party is not somehow immune from the rest of society. Parties membership rises when they are in opposition because they provide a focus for those who disagree with the government. The converse is equally true.

    UKIP is new and shiny as far as many are concerned so they are joining it. However clearly many do not like what they see once it has secured election as we saw twice this week when it lost by-elections. OGH will no doubt confirm whether it is any more successful at defending by-elections now than it was before the May elections this year.

    Young people do not join things the way their parents and grandparents did. Church membership is falling. Voluntary organisations, community groups, hobby clubs are all folding because they cannot attract new members and committee members. The Tory party is not immune from that.

    However many more young people appear to be happy to lend some of their time to support the David Cameron Tory party than at any time since the early days of Margaret Thatcher. We saw that with the 600 strong hit squad which landed in Newark to campaign. We have seen it all over Scotland at council by-election after by-election over the past 3 years. Tory Associations in the traditional format are disappearing. They are often being replaced by District or Regional groups which are being boosted by short bursts of volunteer activity. In Scotland the 2015Team campaign has seen people who are not party members donate around £250k. That is the way ahead.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    CD13 said:


    I thought that Putin's response was predictable as was everyone's else.

    The Ukranian rebels - hide the evidence and claim it wasn't us guv.
    Russia - it's all fault of the Ukranian Government for not giving in to the rebels.
    Ukranian Government - Gotcha!
    The West - bugger, all that gas and easy money at risk.

    {snip for space]

    Awesome post - watermelons to a T.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 904
    "Lady Stowell, who will only “attend” Cabinet, is actually the new Leader of the House of Lords. For the first time in British history, there is no peer in the Cabinet. One of our two law-making chambers (the one which works better) therefore has no formal say in the government of the country."

    From someone called Charles Moore in todays Telegraph.

    At last Cameron strikes small blow for democracy.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Not sure whats happened to the Lords test, enjoying the 20:20 stuff this morning though.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Socrates said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    Obama is doing everything he can - it's the EU leaders holding him back. The US does not import much from Russia, so the economic sanctions he has put on won't do much. If the EU put those sanctions on Russian gas, Russia would be sent into deep recession. The weakness is those European leaders that care more about a few months of high gas prices than enforcing international law and containing the imperialist Putin regime.

    European leaders have to carry their electorates with them. If there is no will for self-imposed energy shortages and economic uncertainty in order to teach the Russians a lesson then it is not going to happen. Sanctions that hurt the people imposing them are not viable. That's just a fact of democracy.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited July 2014

    hucks67 said:

    I have never thought of Cameron as a natural leader and a politician who has an ideology driving him. He was picked by the Tories, as they wanted a younger leader who could communicate in a 24/7 TV media world. I don't think there was any proper assessment of whether Cameron had all the necessary skills for the job and could therefore be a competent PM. Cameron has not been a good leader of the Tories, as he has upset a large number of its supporters who have gone over to UKIP and membership of the party is less than half what it was when he took over.

    t effect UKIP has on the Tories in a full scale election, not a bunch of polls. The Tories performed far better in the Euro and local government elections than the vast majority on here and the wider chatterati had expected.

    As for party membership, the Tory party is not somehow immune from the rest of society. Parties membership rises when they are in opposition because they provide a focus for those who disagree with the government. The converse is equally true.

    UKIP is new and shiny as far as many are concerned so they are joining it. However clearly many do not like what they see once it has secured election as we saw twice this week when it lost by-elections. OGH will no doubt confirm whether it is any more successful at defending by-elections now than it was before the May elections this year.

    Young people do not join things the way their parents and grandparents did. Church membership is falling. Voluntary organisations, community groups, hobby clubs are all folding because they cannot attract new members and committee members. The Tory party is not immune from that.

    However many more young people appear to be happy to lend some of their time to support the David Cameron Tory party than at any time since the early days of Margaret Thatcher. We saw that with the 600 strong hit squad which landed in Newark to campaign. We have seen it all over Scotland at council by-election after by-election over the past 3 years. Tory Associations in the traditional format are disappearing. They are often being replaced by District or Regional groups which are being boosted by short bursts of volunteer activity. In Scotland the 2015Team campaign has seen people who are not party members donate around £250k. That is the way ahead.
    Excuses excuses

    He's got a75% chance of being remembered as the guy the failed to get a majority twice... Against Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. What's so great about that?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    I see that according to the Beeb, the separatists are refusing to allow observers etc to the Malaysian crash site.

    I wonder if the idea is that Putin can claim that these are crazy, uncontrollable people.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Draw backers in desperate trouble in the test now I reckon ^^;
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    Pulpstar said:

    Draw backers in desperate trouble in the test now I reckon ^^;

    Do we need a rain dance?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    Draw backers in desperate trouble in the test now I reckon ^^;

    Do we need a rain dance?
    Nah I've effectively got a free bet to win £45 on India - very happy with proceedings :)
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 904
    new thread
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    The big question is:

    Will Jimmy average more than Cook with the bat this series !
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Socrates said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    Obama is doing everything he can - it's the EU leaders holding him back. The US does not import much from Russia, so the economic sanctions he has put on won't do much. If the EU put those sanctions on Russian gas, Russia would be sent into deep recession. The weakness is those European leaders that care more about a few months of high gas prices than enforcing international law and containing the imperialist Putin regime.

    European leaders have to carry their electorates with them. If there is no will for self-imposed energy shortages and economic uncertainty in order to teach the Russians a lesson then it is not going to happen. Sanctions that hurt the people imposing them are not viable. That's just a fact of democracy.

    Spot on, Mr. Observer. Putin has learned the lessons we taught him over Iraq, when we invaded without a UN mandate and in Libya, where we got a mandate and then went far, far beyond it. Putin saw that if you have the power international law can be ignored with impunity. We should not now be surprised that he is behaving in much the same way we did, pursuing his own goals regardless of what the UN or anyone else says.

    In 1988 in a ghastly error the USS Vincennes shot down a civilian airliner on a routine flight killing all 290 people on board. I don't recall any demands for the USA to be punished or subject to economic sanctions.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Icarus said:

    new thread

    There isn't a new thread. We've just had a sequencing issue.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited July 2014
    FPT

    I think Harry does excellent work on the LE results, however SNP and Mebynon Kernow are tough to read -

    Here are my suggestions:

    516651 Mebynon Kernow
    7f7f00 SNP

    Scottish Nationalists 595 (25% -6%)
    Mebynon Kernow 58 (5%)
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Putin has made an error of strategy backing the Donetsk rebels without having full control over them.

    So instead of the rebels being a problem for the Ukraine and its Western allies, Putin now finds all nations that had passengers on the crashed plane will blame Russia. Also all air travellers around the world will be wary of Russia.

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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Socrates said:

    Morning all and I wonder how Ed's planned speech "We will not spend much if we win" will match all the promises he and his team have been making for some months. I just hope the gardener in charge of the magic money tree orchard is up to the job.

    On thread, the changes are interesting and it will be fascinating to see what change, if any the pollsters report among key sections like women voters, teachers etc in the coming months.

    Meanwhile as it appears listening to SKY and other reporters that Ukrainian rebels are looting the bodies of the plane crash victims of credit cards, watches etc how much more can Putin withstand before he takes action?

    Putin only respects strength. He is giving the rebels more or less free rein because he knows Obama is weak and will make only token gestures and spout platitudes, and the EU nations (including the UK) have no means to meaningfully respond. He will do nothing.
    Obama is doing everything he can - it's the EU leaders holding him back. The US does not import much from Russia, so the economic sanctions he has put on won't do much. If the EU put those sanctions on Russian gas, Russia would be sent into deep recession. The weakness is those European leaders that care more about a few months of high gas prices than enforcing international law and containing the imperialist Putin regime.

    European leaders have to carry their electorates with them. If there is no will for self-imposed energy shortages and economic uncertainty in order to teach the Russians a lesson then it is not going to happen. Sanctions that hurt the people imposing them are not viable. That's just a fact of democracy.

    There is more sense in the common people than there is in our leaders, I wouldn't say it's merely economic self interest. Even my usually disinterested mother remarked on seeing the Donbass independence vote, if they want to leave then they should just let them.

    Reality is in opinion polls most people see the US as a rogue state and with very good reason.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Russia may be complicit in this, but the stampede to accuse them before anything is verified is predictable to say the least.

    There remain a considerable amount of points which aren't being widely discussed in our press.

    1. Early eye-witness accounts of the crash reported military jets 'shooting down' or at least flying alongside the passenger aircraft before it came down. Kiev saying that these were Russian jets, the rebels saying they were Ukrainian. No mention of this is being made now. This is borne out by tweets from a Spanish air traffic controller from Kiev Airport,

    2. Russia claims that Ukraine had BUK missile launchers deployed in the area. If this is proved, it begs the question 'why'. The rebels have no aircraft. It wouldn't be the first time Ukrainian forces have shot down a passenger aircraft; they also did in 2001.

    3. Why did MH17 take a more northerly route this time, rather than the same as its previous days? In addition to this unexplained re-route, according to Malaysia Airlines, MH17 requested to fly at an altitude of 35,000 ft. Ukrainian air traffic control told them to fly at a lower altitude of 33,000ft.

    It would appear to me there are 3 possibilities:

    A) It was shot down in a case of mistaken identity by over-armed and trigger-happy rebels, but questions over its flight path remain.

    B) It was shot down in a case of mistaken identity by trigger-happy Ukrainian forces, possibly because they believed it to be Putin's Presidential flight (the markings and dimensions are very similar). The Ukrainian army is dominated by Right Sector and other paramilitary organisations, and it is possible that Poroshenko doesn't even have control over operational decisions in the conflict zone.

    C) Tinfoil hat time. It was shot down by Ukrainian forces in a well coordinated attempt to implicate Russia, and unite the world against it. Diverted from its usual path, escorted by jets, targeted and destroyed. The ground well prepared, and the smoking gun 'tapes' translated into 6 languages and ready to be deployed.
This discussion has been closed.