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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Nighthawks

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Nighthawks

If you’re going to be up, All Night Long, why not relax, and converse into the night on the day’s events in PB NightHawks.

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  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Eagles, one feels the need to point out that Caesar attacked Pompey at Dyrrachium, and managed to lose the battle even though he was leading veterans (who ran away) against newly raised recruits.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    There wasn't a July in 48 BC, it was still Quintilis, and the 10th then wouldn't be the 10th now what with the Gregorian reforms.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    Number 10 is clearly in error!

    We were repeatedly assured, in no uncertain terms that Cameron would be forced into a debate with Salmond and that any other option was completely unthinkable

    Just as we were assured that rUK would HAVE to share the pound, membership of the EU would be AUTOMATIC and rUK was GUARANTEED to build warships in Sindy......
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FPT

    Charles said:

    Freggles said:

    Charles said:

    " we don't really have a National Health Service - we have a National Sickness Service. Concepts of promoting good public health and health education were the first casualties of economic cutbacks"

    Hey, Mr. Stodge, see what you are getting at but when I am lying on the trolley at death's door I need some people who are going to fix me up not give me a lecture on good public health. A thousand words on the disadvantages of consuming too much sugar maybe worthwhile but if I am about to conk out through renal failure it may not be the best treatment.

    When dosh is tight are you, you Mr. Stoge, going to tell Mrs. Smith she is about to become Widow Smith because the money that could have saved her husband has been spent on telling teenagers not to drink coca-cola and the like?

    Spot on and this govt has introduced a system where ccgs spend money on don't drink fizzy pop rather than funding it's acute provider that is ffalling over. My FT hasnot even had a flat cash settlement in last couple of years and has had a 25,% increase in throughput.over the same timescale. It has gone from making a £,7m surplus used to fund cap ex to making no surplus this means it can't fund sufficient equipment mri scanners cost over £1m by the way
    Not every hospital should be buying MRI scanners.
    It leads to sub-optimal utilisation and ineffective allocation of limited resources.

    Mechanisms to pool and share MRIs is the most effective - and there are a couple of good companies that do this (plus guarantee the necessary supply of FDG in the process).

    BTW did you know that lots of NHS hospitals make nuclear material in their basements? I mean, WTF? Just buy the stuff.



    Which is why, in some cases, outsourcing is better.

    Inhealth and Alliance Medical do a pretty good job of optimising utilisation of MRIs
    Alliance have a local contract so I am familiar with their service. They are reasonably quick (though reject more referrals) but do not have joint meetings with clinicians to interpret findings, discuss likely diagnoses or plan further investigations. They cannot clarify with clinicians what the issue is and target the scan protocol appropriately. Not all MRIs are equal, and the fragmentation of services makes communication difficult. If I am really worried about a patient I use our in house scanner.

  • Options
    MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    more to the point given Trent Bridge today, in 1982 Botham scored 208 in 225 balls against India at The Oval.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Charles

    You would assume Tc99 is brought in from a government controlled facility, then modified on site. I can't see every hospital having the equipment to create it from scratch.
    Still following your logic, you could privatise the entire radio-ology departments?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    You would assume Tc99 is brought in from a government controlled facility, then modified on site. I can't see every hospital having the equipment to create it from scratch.
    Still following your logic, you could privatise the entire radio-ology departments?

    Nah. Most molybdendum comes from Canada and is shipped to a handful of core NHS hospitals which then extract the Tc99 and onward distribute. If it really was as simple as @Ishmael_X suggests you'd have a Tc99 generator in every hospital.

    My suggestion is that the whole process of the core hospitals managing nuclear material, managing order flow, handling complex logistics for just-in-time delivery of a wasting material and then recharging is a waste of precious NHS resources.

    The NHS should focus their time, effort and resources on patient care. (Fundamentally, I'm arguing that the margin an external provider would make would be more than offset by the additional capacity released by outsourcing and reduction in organisational complexity).

    Radiology outsourcing is a different question - and I take @foxinsox's point below - but is more about optimising capacity utilisation (even if it's only the simple cases).

    My view is simple: we live in a world of limited resources available for healthcare. The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    Indeed. I used to do exactly this task whilst doubling up as a researcher on a Nuclear Medicine dept (FPT)
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,016
    Ishmael_X said:

    There wasn't a July in 48 BC, it was still Quintilis, and the 10th then wouldn't be the 10th now what with the Gregorian reforms.

    VI. id. Quint. rather than the 10th.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GeoffM said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    Indeed. I used to do exactly this task whilst doubling up as a researcher on a Nuclear Medicine dept (FPT)
    Are you ever in the UK? Would like to drag you out for lunch and pick your brain...
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @Charles
    "The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources."
    Yes, the best way of doing it is what we were debating.
    Private enterprise works well for many things, but unlike many on here, I can see where it fails at others.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    FPT

    The so called unnecessary reforms of Lansley seem to have been accompanied by a remarkable increase in productivity (per the Kings fund) and an increase in front line medical staff numbers on what in real terms is no real money. This productivity increase has resulted in record numbers of patients being treated and a general perception that the NHS is doing a good job.

    In a rational world those claiming that this is all some sort of spurious correlation would face a heavy burden of proof but since the allegations are being made by Labour and those pointing out what has been achieved are largely tories the public seem to have the opposite view.

    I think this is just one of the odd political realities of our time. The tories need to make the best of it by providing the relevant information on every occasion and praying that we do not have a really bad winter.

    BTW my good wife was asking why we had not had 5 goals yet until she spotted that the game included "those orange people who never score no matter how many shots they have".
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT



    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    "A technetium-99m generator, or colloquially a technetium cow or moly cow" (from wiki)

    The "milking" metaphor suggests it isn't that complicated, and as someone medical is going to have to handle the stuff when actually put to use I don't see the problem with their doing the milking.

    I'd also point out that hospitals are full to the brim of seriously horrible stuff like the cancer chemo drugs, whereas the point of technetium is it's so relatively benign you can inject it into people. So handling it is surely not a big issue.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563

    Mr. Eagles, one feels the need to point out that Caesar attacked Pompey at Dyrrachium, and managed to lose the battle even though he was leading veterans (who ran away) against newly raised recruits.

    You're focussing upon the negatives.

    Be positive.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    You would assume Tc99 is brought in from a government controlled facility, then modified on site. I can't see every hospital having the equipment to create it from scratch.
    Still following your logic, you could privatise the entire radio-ology departments?

    Nah. Most molybdendum comes from Canada and is shipped to a handful of core NHS hospitals which then extract the Tc99 and onward distribute. If it really was as simple as @Ishmael_X suggests you'd have a Tc99 generator in every hospital.

    My suggestion is that the whole process of the core hospitals managing nuclear material, managing order flow, handling complex logistics for just-in-time delivery of a wasting material and then recharging is a waste of precious NHS resources.

    The NHS should focus their time, effort and resources on patient care. (Fundamentally, I'm arguing that the margin an external provider would make would be more than offset by the additional capacity released by outsourcing and reduction in organisational complexity).

    Radiology outsourcing is a different question - and I take @foxinsox's point below - but is more about optimising capacity utilisation (even if it's only the simple cases).

    My view is simple: we live in a world of limited resources available for healthcare. The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources.
    Did you see the article I linked to? It explains why despite 99% 5 year survival for Prostate Cancer in the USA and 81% in the UK results in near identical death rates from the same condition!

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

    So who has the better prostate cancer healthcare? The one with the higher 5 year survival or the one that leaves people undiagnosed and not investigated with all associated anxiety and morbidity?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    "The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources."
    Yes, the best way of doing it is what we were debating.
    Private enterprise works well for many things, but unlike many on here, I can see where it fails at others.

    Indeed. But you seem to draw outside anything branded "NHS" while I am willing to challenge that particular sacred cow.

    But then I have spent nearly 20 years in the healthcare industry, which has influenced my views somewhat.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Ishmael_X
    As they have to handle the X ray machines, as you suggest, there will be quite a few qualified to handle the technetium, in the department already
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    Indeed. I used to do exactly this task whilst doubling up as a researcher on a Nuclear Medicine dept (FPT)
    Are you ever in the UK? Would like to drag you out for lunch and pick your brain...
    Rarely but I'm looking at a trip to Norway to see a potential client next month if negotiations continue to go well. Could stop over in London for a little longer easily enough. I'll drop you a note on Vanilla messenger.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    edited July 2014
    The ITV World Cup team must be pig-sick. The Beeb got the game of the decade. ITV got a game that so far is as "intriguing" as paint drying.....

    Heh!
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT



    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    "A technetium-99m generator, or colloquially a technetium cow or moly cow" (from wiki)

    The "milking" metaphor suggests it isn't that complicated, and as someone medical is going to have to handle the stuff when actually put to use I don't see the problem with their doing the milking.

    I'd also point out that hospitals are full to the brim of seriously horrible stuff like the cancer chemo drugs, whereas the point of technetium is it's so relatively benign you can inject it into people. So handling it is surely not a big issue.
    As I've said before, it's not so much the manufacturing process as the logistics and process management. These are not in every hospital.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @Charles

    NHS or "private" Charles? (your time in health care)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    This is something to add on the PB nighthawks list (I know its from perma-bear zerohedge but still):
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-09/sheer-insanity-no-revenue-company-rises-over-1-billion-today-57k-shares-traded

    "CYNK Technology Corp, the social media development company that had a market capitalization in excess of $1 billion, which according to official filings, had one employee, no website, no revenue, no product, and no assets. Fast forward 2 days - and some 57,000 shares traded (about 0.02% of its total shares outstanding) at around $10 and CYNK now has a market cap approaching $3 billion (and still no revenue, no product, and no assets)"

    Free money.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!

    I think as you say, the reforms are working well where the CCGs are well managed and working in partnership.
    The problem is more that with flat funding, a fair few Trusts are at risk of going under. Of course, the bungs will keep coming until after the election, but then someone is going to have to make serious choices.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PickardJE: Senior Tories compare their ruthless clinical operation to Germany football team. They argue that well-meaning Labour is Brazil. Discuss.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 11s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops three, now four points ahead: CON 32%, LAB 36%, LD 10%, UKIP 12%
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    The debate between Salmond and Darling is on the same day that a very large number of Scottish families will be completely engrossed in the Higher results that come out that day. Interesting timing. And those that are receiving them will pretty much all have the vote the following month.

    The suggestion from Better Together that Salmond will finally have to answer some questions seem extremely optimistic.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    You would assume Tc99 is brought in from a government controlled facility, then modified on site. I can't see every hospital having the equipment to create it from scratch.
    Still following your logic, you could privatise the entire radio-ology departments?

    Nah. Most molybdendum comes from Canada and is shipped to a handful of core NHS hospitals which then extract the Tc99 and onward distribute. If it really was as simple as @Ishmael_X suggests you'd have a Tc99 generator in every hospital.

    My suggestion is that the whole process of the core hospitals managing nuclear material, managing order flow, handling complex logistics for just-in-time delivery of a wasting material and then recharging is a waste of precious NHS resources.

    The NHS should focus their time, effort and resources on patient care. (Fundamentally, I'm arguing that the margin an external provider would make would be more than offset by the additional capacity released by outsourcing and reduction in organisational complexity).

    Radiology outsourcing is a different question - and I take @foxinsox's point below - but is more about optimising capacity utilisation (even if it's only the simple cases).

    My view is simple: we live in a world of limited resources available for healthcare. The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources.
    Did you see the article I linked to? It explains why despite 99% 5 year survival for Prostate Cancer in the USA and 81% in the UK results in near identical death rates from the same condition!

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

    So who has the better prostate cancer healthcare? The one with the higher 5 year survival or the one that leaves people undiagnosed and not investigated with all associated anxiety and morbidity?
    That's interesting, thanks. Too tired to read properly, so have bookmarked it for later. One of my bugbears, though, is the Daily Mail abuse of relative and absolute risk statistics. So I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

    [made up example]

    "If you vote Labour you are 4 times as like to die of breast cancer!" [without explaining that this is a shift from 0.1% to 0.4%]

    But back on point - I'm not sure that prostrate cancer is the best example, because there is an odd combination of relatively high incidence rates and low mortality rates. Screening should really be focused on diseases that matter.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GeoffM said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    @Smareron FPT

    I'm talking about the actual manufacturing of Tc99, not the medical procedure.

    If you actually look at the article you linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m_generator you will see that a Tc99 generator is an object about the size of a car battery, colloquially called a technetium cow and designed "to minimize the extraction work done at the medical facility". I imagine the "manufacturing" actually done at the hospital amounts to turning a switch.
    It's a "moly cow", by the way. Yes, a lot of process is automated, but it is not just a question of turning a switch - and involves the need to handle radioactive materials.
    Indeed. I used to do exactly this task whilst doubling up as a researcher on a Nuclear Medicine dept (FPT)
    Are you ever in the UK? Would like to drag you out for lunch and pick your brain...
    Rarely but I'm looking at a trip to Norway to see a potential client next month if negotiations continue to go well. Could stop over in London for a little longer easily enough. I'll drop you a note on Vanilla messenger.
    Sounds good - I spent a good chunk of 2012/13 in Norway, but haven't been back for a year - trying to find an excuse for a trip over.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    NHS or "private" Charles? (your time in health care)

    Introducing people to each other and gossiping :-)

    (And occasionally financing the development of disruptive technology)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    I smell an IPO scandal in the US with this Cynk Tech I mentioned earlier:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/2274553-cynk-technology-promoters-push-market-cap-to-655-million-despite-39-in-assets-and-no-revenue-100-percent-downside

    "Paid promoters have helped push CYNK market cap to $655 million after a 3,650% increase in the share price on Tuesday.
    CYNK had assets of just $39 (no zeros omitted) as of March 31, 2014 and a cumulative net loss of $1.5 million. The "company" has no revenue."

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cynk/financials?query=balance-sheet&data=quarterly

    So it is proven that you can be a billionaire over night, you just need to found a company even with no money and IPO it in New York and that's it.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,016

    Ishmael_X said:

    There wasn't a July in 48 BC, it was still Quintilis, and the 10th then wouldn't be the 10th now what with the Gregorian reforms.

    VI. id. Quint. rather than the 10th.
    This calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/julianmanycalconv.html reckons it would have been IV id. Quint. not VI.

    Interestingly it also suggests we should celebrate Brutus's tyrranicide on 13 March, not 15th which is the Ides.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Freggles said:

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!

    I think as you say, the reforms are working well where the CCGs are well managed and working in partnership.
    The problem is more that with flat funding, a fair few Trusts are at risk of going under. Of course, the bungs will keep coming until after the election, but then someone is going to have to make serious choices.
    My own Trust is £40 million overspent, so I fully expect that after the election we will see some severe austerity, whoever is in charge. On the one hand I think the coalition is much better at spending money wisely, but on the other hand I fear that the Tories with a majority will shred the sort of co-operation I describe below with fragmentation of care.

    On balance I am with the Labour party on health as an issue. The British public have it right!

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360
    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Speedy said:

    I smell an IPO scandal in the US with this Cynk Tech I mentioned earlier:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/2274553-cynk-technology-promoters-push-market-cap-to-655-million-despite-39-in-assets-and-no-revenue-100-percent-downside

    "Paid promoters have helped push CYNK market cap to $655 million after a 3,650% increase in the share price on Tuesday.
    CYNK had assets of just $39 (no zeros omitted) as of March 31, 2014 and a cumulative net loss of $1.5 million. The "company" has no revenue."

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cynk/financials?query=balance-sheet&data=quarterly

    So it is proven that you can be a billionaire over night, you just need to found a company even with no money and IPO it in New York and that's it.

    He's not a billionaire unless he can turn the paper into cash at those valuations.

    And if he is drip feeding the boiler rooms there will be a law that he is breaking.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Speedy
    Or find a bug in one of the high speed trading systems?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    The ITV World Cup team must be pig-sick. The Beeb got the game of the decade. ITV got a game that so far is as "intriguing" as paint drying.....

    Heh!

    It probably will go to penalties, I have bet on Holland unfortunately.
    I will not make the same mistake for who wins the world cup.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: Senior Tories compare their ruthless clinical operation to Germany football team. They argue that well-meaning Labour is Brazil. Discuss.

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 11s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops three, now four points ahead: CON 32%, LAB 36%, LD 10%, UKIP 12%

    Baxter:

    CON 255
    LAB 346
    LIB 21
    UKIP 0

    Ed Miliband publicly thanks Farage, declares Take On Me to be the new national anthem

  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,311
    YouGov average Lab lead last 7 weeks (oldest first):

    4.0
    5.0
    4.0
    4.2
    4.2
    2.4 = Last week
    4.7 = This week (3 polls only)

    So in contrast to Populus and Ashcroft, YouGov not really showing anything out of the ordinary.

    However last weeks' narrowing certainly now looks like random variation - or if it was a genuine Con boost it has now gone.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.

    Good god, that is a near 43% drop in the Labour lead in a single day.

    How many days are left to the general election?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Speedy said:

    The ITV World Cup team must be pig-sick. The Beeb got the game of the decade. ITV got a game that so far is as "intriguing" as paint drying.....

    Heh!

    It probably will go to penalties, I have bet on Holland unfortunately.
    I will not make the same mistake for who wins the world cup.
    I bet on the draw.

    It looks like a no goal thriller, but always going to be difficult to follow last nights match.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    There must be 200m Brazilians thinking they definitely drew the short straw last night. They would surely have had a good chance against either of these teams.

    The match is so dull I am losing interest in who wins.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AveryLP said:

    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.

    Good god, that is a near 43% drop in the Labour lead in a single day.

    How many days are left to the general election?
    Been studying the LD barchart primer?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0140136290?pc_redir=1404740500&robot_redir=1
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    A Labour government headed by Cameron? You just cannot trust the people at all these days. I am sure after a year or two of the next Labour government the numbers will beg for a return to Tory government, but Cameron's successor will be less popular than Prime Minister Miliband - I am assuming he will get a boost from being PM for a short time, given the 'can't see him as a PM' figure will not be much in play.
  • Options
    compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.

    Enough to get a squirrel suicidal.

    Do you remember those heady days of the three day crossover. The PB HODGEGASM was epic, but also fleeting. It's like a distant memory now. I can proudly say, I was there when PB Hodges were declaring a Tory majority was nailed on.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Charles said:

    Speedy said:

    I smell an IPO scandal in the US with this Cynk Tech I mentioned earlier:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/2274553-cynk-technology-promoters-push-market-cap-to-655-million-despite-39-in-assets-and-no-revenue-100-percent-downside

    "Paid promoters have helped push CYNK market cap to $655 million after a 3,650% increase in the share price on Tuesday.
    CYNK had assets of just $39 (no zeros omitted) as of March 31, 2014 and a cumulative net loss of $1.5 million. The "company" has no revenue."

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cynk/financials?query=balance-sheet&data=quarterly

    So it is proven that you can be a billionaire over night, you just need to found a company even with no money and IPO it in New York and that's it.

    He's not a billionaire unless he can turn the paper into cash at those valuations.

    And if he is drip feeding the boiler rooms there will be a law that he is breaking.
    On net worth though the founder and single employee Marlon Sanchez is worth now almost as much as Richard Branson.
    And he doesn't need to sell all his shares to cash in, he can use it as collateral.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @compouter2
    There might be hope? the political "silly season" is almost upon us.
    Give him a couple of hazel nuts, and a scratch behind the ears.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2014
    Speedy said:

    Charles said:

    Speedy said:

    I smell an IPO scandal in the US with this Cynk Tech I mentioned earlier:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/2274553-cynk-technology-promoters-push-market-cap-to-655-million-despite-39-in-assets-and-no-revenue-100-percent-downside

    "Paid promoters have helped push CYNK market cap to $655 million after a 3,650% increase in the share price on Tuesday.
    CYNK had assets of just $39 (no zeros omitted) as of March 31, 2014 and a cumulative net loss of $1.5 million. The "company" has no revenue."

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cynk/financials?query=balance-sheet&data=quarterly

    So it is proven that you can be a billionaire over night, you just need to found a company even with no money and IPO it in New York and that's it.

    He's not a billionaire unless he can turn the paper into cash at those valuations.

    And if he is drip feeding the boiler rooms there will be a law that he is breaking.
    On net worth though the founder and single employee Marlon Sanchez is worth now almost as much as Richard Branson.
    And he doesn't need to sell all his shares to cash in, he can use it as collateral.
    Have you tried to get margin lending in the past...?
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Dutch v Argies – blimey, what a dull match - and on paper it promised to be so much more.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.

    Good god, that is a near 43% drop in the Labour lead in a single day.

    How many days are left to the general election?
    Been studying the LD barchart primer?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0140136290?pc_redir=1404740500&robot_redir=1
    But my calculations have been peer reviewed, Dr. Sox.

    Fully endorsed by Lord Archer.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    1 hour till penalties.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles

    You would assume Tc99 is brought in from a government controlled facility, then modified on site. I can't see every hospital having the equipment to create it from scratch.
    Still following your logic, you could privatise the entire radio-ology departments?

    Nah. Most molybdendum comes from Canada and is shipped to a handful of core NHS hospitals which then extract the Tc99 and onward distribute. If it really was as simple as @Ishmael_X suggests you'd have a Tc99 generator in every hospital.

    My suggestion is that the whole process of the core hospitals managing nuclear material, managing order flow, handling complex logistics for just-in-time delivery of a wasting material and then recharging is a waste of precious NHS resources.

    The NHS should focus their time, effort and resources on patient care. (Fundamentally, I'm arguing that the margin an external provider would make would be more than offset by the additional capacity released by outsourcing and reduction in organisational complexity).

    Radiology outsourcing is a different question - and I take @foxinsox's point below - but is more about optimising capacity utilisation (even if it's only the simple cases).

    My view is simple: we live in a world of limited resources available for healthcare. The challenge is therefore how to maximise the health outcomes (from the patient perspective) that we can achieve from those resources.
    Did you see the article I linked to? It explains why despite 99% 5 year survival for Prostate Cancer in the USA and 81% in the UK results in near identical death rates from the same condition!

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

    So who has the better prostate cancer healthcare? The one with the higher 5 year survival or the one that leaves people undiagnosed and not investigated with all associated anxiety and morbidity?
    That's interesting, thanks. Too tired to read properly, so have bookmarked it for later. One of my bugbears, though, is the Daily Mail abuse of relative and absolute risk statistics. So I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

    [made up example]

    "If you vote Labour you are 4 times as like to die of breast cancer!" [without explaining that this is a shift from 0.1% to 0.4%]

    But back on point - I'm not sure that prostrate cancer is the best example, because there is an odd combination of relatively high incidence rates and low mortality rates. Screening should really be focused on diseases that matter.
    You work in health care, and you think there are lethal diseases that "don't matter"?
    Golly.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    YouGov Con 32 Lab 36 LD 10 UKIP 12. Down to the 4-point trend line, though with relatively high LD and low UKIP scores.

    Good god, that is a near 43% drop in the Labour lead in a single day.

    How many days are left to the general election?
    Been studying the LD barchart primer?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0140136290?pc_redir=1404740500&robot_redir=1
    But my calculations have been peer reviewed, Dr. Sox.

    Fully endorsed by Lord Archer.

    It is shocking to drop 4% in a day, at this rate the Labour vote will be sub zero by the end of next week. Grim for Ed!
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Ohhhhhhhh Emergency terror powers?
    I do hope it doesn't stretch to suspension of elections. :-)
    (just until the threat is over of course)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2014
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    If that is true the government might be in trouble with ordinary people and the press screaming privacy, though they might get away with it by saying that its eurosceptic and/or terrorism.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    The government are going to ask Parliament to overrule a judgment of the CJEU? If so, an extraordinary development of momentous consequence.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    The government are going to ask Parliament to overrule a judgment of the CJEU? If so, an extraordinary development of momentous consequence.
    Is this another consequence of that daft right to be forgotten decision or is it something else? I agree that this could indeed be significant depending on what the EUCJ decision said.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_X said:


    You work in health care, and you think there are lethal diseases that "don't matter"?
    Golly.

    My point was that screening for prostrate cancer is not necessarily the best use of resources because early treatment doesn't appear to make much of a difference.

    That is all.
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Remember folks, everything is being done for your safety. Ignore any intrusions into your life, just as soon as the threat is over, there will be another one.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    Remember folks, everything is being done for your safety. Ignore any intrusions into your life, just as soon as the threat is over, there will be another one.

    Like the time Blair sent tanks to Heathrow just before a key Commons vote on terrorism?
  • Options
    MikePMikeP Posts: 47
    Smarmeron said:

    Remember folks, everything is being done for your safety. Ignore any intrusions into your life, just as soon as the threat is over, there will be another one.

    Last Thursay there was a curious announcement in the Chamber of the House of Commons. At the session to announce future business, Leader of the House, Andrew Lansley said this:

    “Monday 14th July — consideration of a Bill, followed by a motion to approve the first report from the Committee on Standards on the respect policy”

    If you look on Parliament’s web site tonight, you will not see the name, nor the text of the Bill to be considered.

    None of your elected backbench MPs have been told what Bill is to be debated on Monday. It’s Wednesday evening. Tomorrow, MPs are on a ‘one line whip’ ie they can return to their constituencies this evening.

    Imagine how outrageous it would be, if tomorrow, the government were to announce emergency legislation to an empty chamber. Imagine if that emergency legislation was to be introduced on Monday or Tuesday, with the intention of it slipping through the Commons and the Lords in a single day. Imagine if that Bill was the deeply controversial Data Retention Bill.

    It’s a Bill that will override the views of judges who have seen how the mass collection of your data breaches the human rights of you and your family.

    Regardless of where you stand on the decision of the European Court of Justice, can you honestly say that you want a key decision about how your personal data is stored to be made by a stitch up behind closed doors and clouded in secrecy?

    None of your MPs have even read this legislation, let alone been able to scrutinise it.

    The very fact that the Government is even considering this form of action, strongly suggests that they have an expectation that the few people on the Liberal Democrat and Labour front benchers who have seen this legislation, are willing to be complicit.

    No matter what you think about this issue, if you care about democracy, make sure your MP does not walk through the chamber and vote for legislation nobody has had the chance to debate and question.


    Tom Watson
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Freggles said:

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!

    I think as you say, the reforms are working well where the CCGs are well managed and working in partnership.
    The problem is more that with flat funding, a fair few Trusts are at risk of going under. Of course, the bungs will keep coming until after the election, but then someone is going to have to make serious choices.
    My own Trust is £40 million overspent, so I fully expect that after the election we will see some severe austerity, whoever is in charge. On the one hand I think the coalition is much better at spending money wisely, but on the other hand I fear that the Tories with a majority will shred the sort of co-operation I describe below with fragmentation of care.

    On balance I am with the Labour party on health as an issue. The British public have it right!

    Fair enough, Doc. What will Labour do about that £40m overspend do you think?

    Of course it is not just your trust that is the the hole, is it? All those forty millions add up to some serious money. So what do you think? A shake of the magic money tree and all the problems will go away? Mind you when it comes to your trust being overspent that really has nothing to do with HMG and everything to do with the people in charge in your trust. Maybe sacking the buggers (who are all no doubt pulling down big, big bucks) and putting in a decent management team might be a neat move.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    edited July 2014
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    If that is true the government might be in trouble with ordinary people and the press screaming privacy, though they might get away with it by saying that its eurosceptic and/or terrorism.
    Generally works. It does feel like eventually they will run out of 'new' powers to give our intelligence services though. Of course, I am sure it will be entirely proportionate and necessary, not a 'we need to be able to do everything and anything to keep people safe; no matter the cost' sort of deal.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Charles said:

    Speedy said:

    Charles said:

    Speedy said:

    I smell an IPO scandal in the US with this Cynk Tech I mentioned earlier:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/2274553-cynk-technology-promoters-push-market-cap-to-655-million-despite-39-in-assets-and-no-revenue-100-percent-downside

    "Paid promoters have helped push CYNK market cap to $655 million after a 3,650% increase in the share price on Tuesday.
    CYNK had assets of just $39 (no zeros omitted) as of March 31, 2014 and a cumulative net loss of $1.5 million. The "company" has no revenue."

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cynk/financials?query=balance-sheet&data=quarterly

    So it is proven that you can be a billionaire over night, you just need to found a company even with no money and IPO it in New York and that's it.

    He's not a billionaire unless he can turn the paper into cash at those valuations.

    And if he is drip feeding the boiler rooms there will be a law that he is breaking.
    On net worth though the founder and single employee Marlon Sanchez is worth now almost as much as Richard Branson.
    And he doesn't need to sell all his shares to cash in, he can use it as collateral.
    Have you tried to get margin lending in the past...?
    I'm not touching that even with a nuke up my behinds, however this scam has to make money and the next most obvious thing after selling shares to idiots before the bubble bursts is to use the shares as collateral then take the money and run (after all this guy [Cynk or should I say Junk] doesn't have an address or a working phone and the company HQ is somewhere in Belize).
    Investors and banks don't look very deep in the details of the quality of their investments these days anyway thanks to all this central bank liquidity.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,894
    Tonights You Gov (ukpr) LAB 346 CON 254 LD 24 Other 26

    Ed is crap is PM 9 Months 28 days to go
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    MikeP said:

    Smarmeron said:

    Remember folks, everything is being done for your safety. Ignore any intrusions into your life, just as soon as the threat is over, there will be another one.

    Last Thursay there was a curious announcement in the Chamber of the House of Commons. At the session to announce future business, Leader of the House, Andrew Lansley said this:

    “Monday 14th July — consideration of a Bill, followed by a motion to approve the first report from the Committee on Standards on the respect policy”

    If you look on Parliament’s web site tonight, you will not see the name, nor the text of the Bill to be considered.

    None of your elected backbench MPs have been told what Bill is to be debated on Monday. It’s Wednesday evening. Tomorrow, MPs are on a ‘one line whip’ ie they can return to their constituencies this evening.

    Imagine how outrageous it would be, if tomorrow, the government were to announce emergency legislation to an empty chamber. Imagine if that emergency legislation was to be introduced on Monday or Tuesday, with the intention of it slipping through the Commons and the Lords in a single day. Imagine if that Bill was the deeply controversial Data Retention Bill.

    It’s a Bill that will override the views of judges who have seen how the mass collection of your data breaches the human rights of you and your family.

    Regardless of where you stand on the decision of the European Court of Justice, can you honestly say that you want a key decision about how your personal data is stored to be made by a stitch up behind closed doors and clouded in secrecy?

    None of your MPs have even read this legislation, let alone been able to scrutinise it.

    The very fact that the Government is even considering this form of action, strongly suggests that they have an expectation that the few people on the Liberal Democrat and Labour front benchers who have seen this legislation, are willing to be complicit.

    No matter what you think about this issue, if you care about democracy, make sure your MP does not walk through the chamber and vote for legislation nobody has had the chance to debate and question.


    Tom Watson
    Typical Tom Watson.

    Takes a blank piece of paper and turns it into a conspiracy.

    Odious man.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Freggles said:

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!

    I think as you say, the reforms are working well where the CCGs are well managed and working in partnership.
    The problem is more that with flat funding, a fair few Trusts are at risk of going under. Of course, the bungs will keep coming until after the election, but then someone is going to have to make serious choices.
    My own Trust is £40 million overspent, so I fully expect that after the election we will see some severe austerity, whoever is in charge. On the one hand I think the coalition is much better at spending money wisely, but on the other hand I fear that the Tories with a majority will shred the sort of co-operation I describe below with fragmentation of care.

    On balance I am with the Labour party on health as an issue. The British public have it right!

    Fair enough, Doc. What will Labour do about that £40m overspend do you think?

    Of course it is not just your trust that is the the hole, is it? All those forty millions add up to some serious money. So what do you think? A shake of the magic money tree and all the problems will go away? Mind you when it comes to your trust being overspent that really has nothing to do with HMG and everything to do with the people in charge in your trust. Maybe sacking the buggers (who are all no doubt pulling down big, big bucks) and putting in a decent management team might be a neat move.
    My Trust has excellent management that I have full confidence in.

    The problem of our overspend is complex, and substantially due to underinvestment over the years.

    Sack a few managers? Well, every complex problem has a simple concise solution which can be implemented easily- and is completely wrong!
  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Speedy
    "Investors and banks don't look very deep in the details of the quality of their investments these days anyway thanks to all this central bank liquidity. "
    Someone else was warning about that, someone quite high up in economic circles as well, now who was it?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    Well he was offside and he missed. Apart from that it was almost exciting.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    Ohhhhhhhh Emergency terror powers?
    I do hope it doesn't stretch to suspension of elections. :-)
    (just until the threat is over of course)

    Thank God there is too much money in electioneering in the west to ban elections.
    Can you imagine what would happen to all the ad men, the Spads, the pollsters, the political editors ect ect, if there were no elections?
    Elections are a business.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    AveryLP said:

    MikeP said:

    Smarmeron said:

    Remember folks, everything is being done for your safety. Ignore any intrusions into your life, just as soon as the threat is over, there will be another one.

    Last Thursay there was a curious announcement in the Chamber of the House of Commons. At the session to announce future business, Leader of the House, Andrew Lansley said this:

    “Monday 14th July — consideration of a Bill, followed by a motion to approve the first report from the Committee on Standards on the respect policy”

    If you look on Parliament’s web site tonight, you will not see the name, nor the text of the Bill to be considered.


    It’s a Bill that will override the views of judges who have seen how the mass collection of your data breaches the human rights of you and your family.

    Regardless of where you stand on the decision of the European Court of Justice, can you honestly say that you want a key decision about how your personal data is stored to be made by a stitch up behind closed doors and clouded in secrecy?

    None of your MPs have even read this legislation, let alone been able to scrutinise it.

    The very fact that the Government is even considering this form of action, strongly suggests that they have an expectation that the few people on the Liberal Democrat and Labour front benchers who have seen this legislation, are willing to be complicit.

    No matter what you think about this issue, if you care about democracy, make sure your MP does not walk through the chamber and vote for legislation nobody has had the chance to debate and question.


    Tom Watson
    Typical Tom Watson.

    Takes a blank piece of paper and turns it into a conspiracy.

    Odious man.
    It all sounds pretty plausible to me. The intelligence and security services seek as much power as they can get away with, with the best of intentions no doubt, and governments give them as much as they dare, again with the best of intentions I am sure, and if we have to rendition people, torture people, or just the deal with the reality of working with despicable people and regimes in a terrible world, they will do so if they can, and sneaking legislation through seems like a pretty minor way of achieving what they no doubt see as necessary measures to safeguard the nation. The only true difficulty comes when they are wrong about what is necessary, but which they can never recognize when that is. Will that be the case this time? I'm reserving judgement until more info is available.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Freggles said:

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but having caught up on the last thread I wanted to stick my oar in.

    I am pleasantly surprised by how well the NHS changes are working locally. I have not seen such co-operation between organisations for years.

    This is not just my impression, the evidence is published here: http://www.bettercareleicester.nhs.uk/information-library/better-care-together-plan-2014/

    There is something slightly Stalinist about the sound of a five year plan, but for Primary and Secondary health care to be working so well in an integrated manner with the councils does rather sound like the sort of policy that our Labour supporting PBers have been arguing for!

    I think as you say, the reforms are working well where the CCGs are well managed and working in partnership.
    The problem is more that with flat funding, a fair few Trusts are at risk of going under. Of course, the bungs will keep coming until after the election, but then someone is going to have to make serious choices.
    My own Trust is £40 million overspent, so I fully expect that after the election we will see some severe austerity, whoever is in charge. On the one hand I think the coalition is much better at spending money wisely, but on the other hand I fear that the Tories with a majority will shred the sort of co-operation I describe below with fragmentation of care.

    On balance I am with the Labour party on health as an issue. The British public have it right!

    Fair enough, Doc. What will Labour do about that £40m overspend do you think?

    Of course it is not just your trust that is the the hole, is it? All those forty millions add up to some serious money. So what do you think? A shake of the magic money tree and all the problems will go away? Mind you when it comes to your trust being overspent that really has nothing to do with HMG and everything to do with the people in charge in your trust. Maybe sacking the buggers (who are all no doubt pulling down big, big bucks) and putting in a decent management team might be a neat move.
    "Big bucks" for an easy job, by the sounds of it - why not take on a small failing Trust as Chief Exec? Just a few years out of your career and you could save the NHS with your radical ideas. After all, no-one has ever really given thought to the problem of providing healthcare to an ageing population so it's worth a shot eh?

  • Options
    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Speedy

    You have to find it a little ironic that the coalition reduced restrictions on terrorist suspects, but is increasing them for the public?
    Perhaps Cameron sees the public as the real danger?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: I'm also told that Ed Miliband has been included in the secret data communications talks - and will back new laws http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Will he back them in a speech, then vote against?
  • Options
    compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Smarmeron said:

    @compouter2
    There might be hope? the political "silly season" is almost upon us.
    Give him a couple of hazel nuts, and a scratch behind the ears.

    Oh I do hope so. There is nothing like watching the PB Hodges creaming themselves over a poll showing the Tory Party ahead by 1% only to see their tissues put back in the box, sometimes the same night by another poll showing a Labour lead. I believe it is known as a PB Hodge premature polling ejaculation.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098



    [Snip for Space]

    My Trust has excellent management that I have full confidence in.

    The problem of our overspend is complex, and substantially due to underinvestment over the years.

    Sack a few managers? Well, every complex problem has a simple concise solution which can be implemented easily- and is completely wrong!

    Fair enough, Doc. You have full faith in the ability of the people who got you into the mess to get you out of it. Nothing wrong with that, I am sure they have a plan and one that that maintains full levels of service to patients.

    You also from your earlier posts seem to believe a Conservative government will spend money more wisely than a Labour one and that the reforms are actually producing a good result. However you prefer a Labour government who will piss the NHS money up the wall and undo the reforms that you think are working. I must be missing something.

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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Smarmeron said:

    @Speedy
    "Investors and banks don't look very deep in the details of the quality of their investments these days anyway thanks to all this central bank liquidity. "
    Someone else was warning about that, someone quite high up in economic circles as well, now who was it?

    It's not a secret, people have been warning about this since May 2013.
    But politics is above it, if everything seems to be ok, then voters will think its ok and if it can hold till the next election then who cares if it busts afterwards.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Tonights You Gov (ukpr) LAB 346 CON 254 LD 24 Other 26

    Ed is crap is PM 9 Months 28 days to go

    With every day that passes ed looks more and more like the real tenant of no 10 Downing Street.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    Emergency powers? could it be something to do with ISIS capturing that chemical weapons plant in Iraq?
    Nahh, the chemicals there would be difficult and costly to re-use, almost as difficult and expensive as taking over the major part of two countries?
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Smarmeron said:

    @Speedy

    You have to find it a little ironic that the coalition reduced restrictions on terrorist suspects, but is increasing them for the public?
    Perhaps Cameron sees the public as the real danger?

    No politician likes the general company of the public, however this stop-go approach on civil liberties is a balancing act between the liberals and the neocons, sometimes the liberals have the upper hand sometimes the neocons depending on the front pages of the press.
    This time its the neocons thanks to ISIS.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    Holland v. Argentina 0-0 at Full Time - will it go down to penalties?
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    MikePMikeP Posts: 47
    Nanny State Tories trampling on our Civil Liberties. Again.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Surely this is a complete misreporting of the issue? They are completely entitled to get terrorists phone records. They just need a warrant to do it. What they actually want to do is have licence to spy on everyone, whether there's probable cause about them being a "plotter" or not.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: I'm also told that Ed Miliband has been included in the secret data communications talks - and will back new laws http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Will he back them in a speech, then vote against?

    The're votes in it if he votes against, so it's a possibility.
    The leader of the opposition has to play his role in opposing, and play it well.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548



    [Snip for Space]

    My Trust has excellent management that I have full confidence in.

    The problem of our overspend is complex, and substantially due to underinvestment over the years.

    Sack a few managers? Well, every complex problem has a simple concise solution which can be implemented easily- and is completely wrong!

    Fair enough, Doc. You have full faith in the ability of the people who got you into the mess to get you out of it. Nothing wrong with that, I am sure they have a plan and one that that maintains full levels of service to patients.

    You also from your earlier posts seem to believe a Conservative government will spend money more wisely than a Labour one and that the reforms are actually producing a good result. However you prefer a Labour government who will piss the NHS money up the wall and undo the reforms that you think are working. I must be missing something.

    Our Trust management changed 18 months ago. The current team are not responsible for creating the mess. They are like the coalition, inheritors of a deficit and slowly fixing it.

    You did not read my post very thoroughly. I specified that the coalition was spending wisely, and that I was unconvinced by Conservative plans for health (and even less so for UKIP - Paul Nuttal has expressed support in the past to privatise it).

    I think the health reforms are working well because the LibDems tempered the more silly parts of the Lansley reforms. Norman Lamb is an excellent minister; a year ago I saw him speak on the same platform as Andy Burnham. Burnham pledged to not make major changes, but to increase democratic accountability, which seems very reasonable to me.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Tonights You Gov (ukpr) LAB 346 CON 254 LD 24 Other 26

    Ed is crap is PM 9 Months 28 days to go

    were aaaaallllllrrrrriiiigggghhhhtttt, were aaaaalllllllrrrriiiigggghhhhtttt
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited July 2014
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: I'm also told that Ed Miliband has been included in the secret data communications talks - and will back new laws http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Will he back them in a speech, then vote against?

    The're votes in it if he votes against, so it's a possibility.
    The leader of the opposition has to play his role in opposing, and play it well.
    Iraq, the EU, the ERM, powers to the surveillance state. Generally all the worst decisions in government happen when the elite all holds hands and jumps together.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    When the other countries insisted on Juncker Cameron said there would be consequences. A head on challenge to the supremacy of EU law would be an interesting line to take.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Socrates said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: BREAKING: Emergency new terror powers to be unveiled tomorrow to override euro judges and let MI5 snoop on internet http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7.

    @tnewtondunn: More: Cameron and Clegg taking this v seriously - a joint press conference tmrw am, and the Cabinet meeting too; http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Surely this is a complete misreporting of the issue? They are completely entitled to get terrorists phone records. They just need a warrant to do it. What they actually want to do is have licence to spy on everyone, whether there's probable cause about them being a "plotter" or not.
    Oh, I'm sure the innocent have nothing to fear; it's not like these sorts of ideas can be misused. We can all be so selfish sometimes, worrying about such things as reasonableness and privacy.

    Good night all.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: I'm also told that Ed Miliband has been included in the secret data communications talks - and will back new laws http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Will he back them in a speech, then vote against?

    The're votes in it if he votes against, so it's a possibility.
    The leader of the opposition has to play his role in opposing, and play it well.
    Point missed, I think.

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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @DavidL
    Depends on how the public take to the idea? Farage might get a chance to stick his oar in, to his advantage.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Socrates said:

    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: I'm also told that Ed Miliband has been included in the secret data communications talks - and will back new laws http://t.co/iLOpLFeoa7

    Will he back them in a speech, then vote against?

    The're votes in it if he votes against, so it's a possibility.
    The leader of the opposition has to play his role in opposing, and play it well.
    Iraq, the EU, the ERM, powers to the surveillance state. Generally all the worst decisions in government happen when the elite all holds hands and jumps together.
    Well said. Disquieting at the very least, rising to worrying depending on how secretive the agreement to jump together was undertaken.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,452
    Evening all. I thought we'd get a Dyrrhachium reference at some point this week. I'm personally with Mr Dancer on this. Of course tomorrow is also the anniversary of the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, one of the few times I've liked the French.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    MikeP said:

    Nanny State Tories trampling on our Civil Liberties. Again.

    When trolling, it's best not to do so with something so easily rebutted. 90 days ring any bells?
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @ToryJim
    State sponsored sabotage and murder?
    You might be happy about it, it worries me.
    They were environmentalists, not terrorists.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Smarmeron said:

    @DavidL
    Depends on how the public take to the idea? Farage might get a chance to stick his oar in, to his advantage.

    Smarmy

    No more about College sticking his oar in.

    Please.
This discussion has been closed.