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  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Socrates
    " if they can't donate any money? "

    The magic of accountancy, they don't donate, but a company in which they are a large shareholder of might.
    Or perhaps buying a picture at an event?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Socrates said:

    @AveryLP

    "The Russian and East European 'oligarchs' were only present at the charity dinners for the good conversation and convivial atmosphere."

    You become a parody of yourself sometimes.

    You are slowly learning, Socrates,

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited July 2014
    The fact is YAB had no concrete information as to facts and figures regarding donations or money changing hands of any sort.

    So she resorted to lazy innuendo.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Or perhaps buying a picture at an event?

    Link?
    Facts?
    Concrete information of any sort?

    thought not.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @taffys
    There is no suggestion that any law is being broken, just pointing things out

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/05/russian-banker-thatcher-portrait-fundraiser-conservative
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2014
    An interesting snippet from the letter by Mark Sedwill (the civil servant investigating possible cover-ups at the Home Office) to Keith Vaz:

    As well as these specific allegations, later correspondence from Mr Dickens focused on broader related policy issues, such as the risk of children and young people being drawn into occult activities.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jul/07/theresa-may-to-announce-inquiry-into-claims-child-sex-abuse-allegations-ignored-politics-live-blog

    Those old enough to remember will immediately recognise the context - one of the most appalling witch-hunts in recent years in the UK, where official hysteria destroyed hundreds of completely innocent families:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_child_abuse_scandal

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ronaldsay_child_abuse_scandal

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ritual-abuse-families-tell-of-years-of-hell-1575174.html

    I suspect that that horrific set of separate but related episodes might well have coloured views on other allegations at the time.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Taxpayers have spent almost £22m on an express train with its own travelling chef which links North and South Wales, it has been revealed.

    The cost was obtained by the Welsh Conservatives, who are questioning the service’s value for money and have hit out at the difficulty in obtaining figures about the service.

    The Welsh Government disclosed in a Freedom of Information request that it had incurred £21.6m in capital and revenue costs from the service’s launch in December 2008 to the end of 2013-14.

    The train has four coaches – three for standard-class passengers and a fourth coach for Premier passengers who receive a complimentary meal, cooked to order by the travelling chef.

    The service runs during the week from Holyhead to Cardiff and back again in the evening. In 2013-14 the train’s subsidy was £2.69m.

    The Welsh Government refused to how much the restaurant car costs as the information would be of “significant interest to a commercial competitor”.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/taxpayers-spend-22m-express-train-7380170
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited July 2014
    Just looking again at the maps I dug out for Mr. Socrates there would seem to be a correlation between social housing, deprivation and a tendency to vote Labour. Not surprising you might say. However, if we throw in the temporal axis and look at the correlation through time I wonder how much the picture would change.

    For example, social housing was not in my youth automatically associated with deprivation to the extent it is now. We certainly didn't see ourselves as deprived on the council estate where I grew up, and on any reasonable scale of the standards of living at the time we were not. Then looking at Labour voting areas with high deprivation over time the level of deprivation doesn't seem to have improved, and may actually have got worse.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,864
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    We urgently need a law where only registered British voters can give to UK political parties.

    Err, we have one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Parties,_Elections_and_Referendums_Act_2000#Donations
    So why are Arab and Eastern European magnates being invited to fundraising dinners?
    Perhaps they own UK-registered companies, which can make donations to the Conservatives. And, presumably, they can take part in the raffles and auctions.
  • Theresa May is right now announcing a big child abuse enquiry. Includes the Paedophile Information Exchange within its scope. Hattie Hateperson is going to love that !
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Smarmeron said:

    @taffys
    There is no suggestion that any law is being broken, just pointing things out

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/05/russian-banker-thatcher-portrait-fundraiser-conservative

    Ah yes:

    This report was the result of a collaboration between the Guardian and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism

    That 'bureau' rings a bell - something from 2012, I think.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    A “war on Wales” led by Conservatives in the UK Government is harming the nation’s reputation across Britain and around the world, according to Shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith.

    The Labour Pontypridd MP is writing to David Cameron to express his concerns about the impact of high-profile criticism of Welsh infrastructure and health services.

    In recent weeks the Prime Minister has attacked the Welsh Labour Government’s record on NHS waiting times and Education Secretary Michael Gove has blasted the performance of Welsh schools.

    Mr Smith fears that a “wellspring of negativity” is damaging business confidence when the country should be preparing to make the most of September’s Nato summit at the Celtic Manor resort. The gathering of international leaders against a backdrop of global security crises is expected to be the biggest event of its kind to take place in Wales.

    The Shadow Welsh Secretary argues cabinet ministers are taking “every available opportunity to undermine Wales’ reputation” and in his letter to the Prime Minister he expresses concern about the damage being done to Wales’ “brand”.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dear-mr-cameron-please-stop-7380450

    Too late - Welsh Labour has been damaging the reputation of Waled for 15 years
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Financier

    "significant interest to a commercial competitor"
    Hmmmm......I have heard that line used before, not to long ago in fact.
    I wonder who it was?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Financier said:

    Taxpayers have spent almost £22m on an express train with its own travelling chef which links North and South Wales, it has been revealed.

    The cost was obtained by the Welsh Conservatives, who are questioning the service’s value for money and have hit out at the difficulty in obtaining figures about the service.

    The Welsh Government disclosed in a Freedom of Information request that it had incurred £21.6m in capital and revenue costs from the service’s launch in December 2008 to the end of 2013-14.

    The train has four coaches – three for standard-class passengers and a fourth coach for Premier passengers who receive a complimentary meal, cooked to order by the travelling chef.

    The service runs during the week from Holyhead to Cardiff and back again in the evening. In 2013-14 the train’s subsidy was £2.69m.

    The Welsh Government refused to how much the restaurant car costs as the information would be of “significant interest to a commercial competitor”.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/taxpayers-spend-22m-express-train-7380170

    Sounds like a rather nice service. The views will be spiffing and if the food is up to scratch it would be a good day out. I am amazed it has not been more publicised.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    We urgently need a law where only registered British voters can give to UK political parties.

    Err, we have one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Parties,_Elections_and_Referendums_Act_2000#Donations
    So why are Arab and Eastern European magnates being invited to fundraising dinners?
    Perhaps they own UK-registered companies, which can make donations to the Conservatives. And, presumably, they can take part in the raffles and auctions.
    Indeed. The idea these people are not donating through one loophole or another is laughable.

    Companies should not be allowed to outbid UK voters for the attention of politicians. Nor should fundraising raffles where you overbid for the cost of the good as a way of sneakily donating be allowed.
  • I have to say both Theresa May and Yvette Cooper speak with excellent clear well enunciated English.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,108
    Socrates said:

    @AveryLP

    "The Russian and East European 'oligarchs' were only present at the charity dinners for the good conversation and convivial atmosphere."

    You become a parody of yourself sometimes.

    @Socrates: many of the oligarchs are now in possession of UK passports thanks to the "passports in return for investment" schemes that the UK runs.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi

    Are you trying to say the article is a smear, or are you trying to smear the article?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2014
    Socrates said:

    Companies should not be allowed to outbid UK voters for the attention of politicians. Nor should fundraising raffles where you overbid for the cost of the good as a way of sneakily donating be allowed.

    You are making a complete fool of yourself. Fundraising raffles where you overbid for the cost of the good as a way of sneakily donating are not allowed (or, to be more precise, the difference between the amount paid and the value of the item counts as a donation, and is subject to the normal rules for the eligibility of the donor. The value of the item itself also counts as a donation, by whoever gave the item to be raffled).

    It's explained quite nicely in the last paragaph of the Guardian article Smarmeron linked to.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,988
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:



    STV has no such defects. Voters can vote for precisely what they want, without having to guess how other voters will vote. They can vote for a party, but against a particular candidate of that party, or for a particular candidate of a party but not for the other candidates of that party. So it is great on 1.

    If there was to be electoral reform - and there should be a high barrier to a fundamental change - then multi-member STV would seem to be one of the best options out there. The count is a little complicated, but I doubt that most voters care about the entrails of democracy that much
    STV seems to work OK in Ireland, and to be adequately understood by the electorate.

    On Mr Nabavi’s point at 3.42, Mr Dickens' constituency was a sort of banana shape around Rochdale where in 1990 there were significant “satanic abuse” allegations, subsequently found to be untrue.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Smarmeron said:

    Are you trying to say the article is a smear, or are you trying to smear the article?

    Of course the article is a smear, it doesn't make any pretence of not being so. Hence in standard Guardian/Daily Mail style it uses weasel words like 'linked to', 'involved in', etc.

    Either it's legit or its not. If you think it's not, feel free to complain to the Electoral Commission.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi

    At least the Conservatives can spot talent?

    "the artist behind the black and white Thatcher portrait, said the work had been commissioned by Elizabeth Diarferia, head of new business for the Conservative party. According to Baker's website, the artwork was "snatched up [at the 2013 fundraising party] ... for an astonishing £40,000! This was a new record for this outstanding young artist".
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Ashcroft National Poll, 4-6 July: CON 27%, LAB 34%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 15

    Bounce to the left, bounce to the right, keep on bouncing!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,736
    Strong Ashcroft for the Lib Dems
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi

    I never made the claim that it was illegal, I was just pointing out how easy it is to get round the rules if one wished. This of course is entirely above board.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    JohnO said:

    Ashcroft National Poll, 4-6 July: CON 27%, LAB 34%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 15

    Bounce to the left, bounce to the right, keep on bouncing!

    I think the PB Tories and PB Lefties can probably unite on one thing - this poll is bonkers. The swings in it are bigger than Alton Towers and it's probably best to ignore it, such is the tiny sample size.

    Ashcroft's marginal polls are great. This one, not so much.

    Enter the shredder.
  • woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Why can't we have more ICM polls
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    I never made the claim that it was illegal, I was just pointing out how easy it is to get round the rules if one wished. This of course is entirely above board.

    They are not 'getting round' the rules. They are complying with the rules. Companies can only make donations if they are genuine UK businesses. The biggest since 2010 is JCB Research, by any standards a legitimate UK operating company (or at least it was the biggest, see this article - it might not be up to date):

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/labour-funding-party-donors-tories-factcheck/13899

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi

    Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not, but the line between the two can be gossamer thin.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,597
    BobaFett said:

    JohnO said:

    Ashcroft National Poll, 4-6 July: CON 27%, LAB 34%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 15

    Bounce to the left, bounce to the right, keep on bouncing!

    I think the PB Tories and PB Lefties can probably unite on one thing - this poll is bonkers. The swings in it are bigger than Alton Towers and it's probably best to ignore it, such is the tiny sample size.

    Ashcroft's marginal polls are great. This one, not so much.

    Enter the shredder.
    Reluctantly tend to agree, and I feel the same about Populus with its biweekly gyrations - although YouGov varies too, the frequency of its results enables us to spot the noise more easily. But it's fair to say that if there was a Tory Juncker bounce, it's probably gone.
    (Hat-tip to Richard N, who queried whether I was right to identify the bounce as existing in the first place.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,988
    JohnO said:

    Ashcroft National Poll, 4-6 July: CON 27%, LAB 34%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 15

    Bounce to the left, bounce to the right, keep on bouncing!

    402 for Lab on Electoral Calculus.
    If it looks too goo to be true..............
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @OldKingCole

    "If it looks too goo to be true.............. "
    rub it in their faces anyway?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Smarmeron said:

    @OldKingCole

    "If it looks too goo to be true.............. "
    rub it in their faces anyway?

    LOL!
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    May is travelling well around Tattenham Corner for the Tories' Derby.Only 10 months to and she's travelling like Lester Piggott.Go gal go.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,459
    Socrates said:

    @FrancisUrquhart

    She is obviously being partisan, but stuff like this should concern us all:

    "The full guest list is still kept from the public eye, but we know they had Russian millionaires - including Putin’s judo partner – as well as Slovenian and Belarus magnates. There was the Arab rich alongside home-grown hedge fund gamblers and other businessmen such as lap-dance club owner Peter Stringfellow."

    I really don't see why the foreign rich should be able to donate money to our political parties. It is a corruption of our democracy. Before long you get to the situation where our political elites are more interested in catering to them than they are the general public.

    We urgently need a law where only registered British voters can give to UK political parties.

    Unless its the US donating to Ukranian political parties I assume.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,988

    Smarmeron said:

    @OldKingCole

    "If it looks too goo to be true.............. "
    rub it in their faces anyway?

    LOL!
    Touché
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi

    Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not, but the line between the two can be gossamer thin.

    Smarmy, it ain't really. It is a big and broad line and only the seriously rich have the resources to take on the Revenue if they decide you have stepped over it. My taxes are always filed and paid on time and I don't even claim everything I could because I couldn't cope with the stress, let alone the cost, of the HMRC putting me under investigation. A pal of mine came under scrutiny by the VAT people some years ago - he had done nothing wrong, but it damn near killed him and cost him his marriage.
This discussion has been closed.