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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to SMERSH: Building a New, Better, Election Forecas

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited June 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to SMERSH: Building a New, Better, Election Forecasting Model

Regular PBer’s will know that five years ago I built VIPA, a model that attempted to look at proportionate swings on a party-by-party basis to model results. This model was – to be quite frank – stolen by Nate Silver, and he used it with much bally-ho.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    First out of bed!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited June 2014
    PBers should beware of pale imitations of a certain projection organ that enjoys a worldwide reputation as being the greatest election forecasting organization known to mankind.

    Never knowingly undersold.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Perhaps the next one can be called SPECTRE? :D
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It does sound an impressive mathematical model, I hope the data going in is as strong.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections Countdown :

    1 day 2 hours 3 minutes 4 seconds
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,697

    First out of bed!

    Back to on-call days? Or nights!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    Perhaps the next one can be called SPECTRE? :D

    Perhaps TSE isn't the only PBer to wear interesting footwear ....

    Does Robert Smithson own a pair of Rosa Klebb-a-like poison knife shoes ?

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    ‘Smithson’s Marvellous Election Results Heuristics System (or SMERSH)’

    Er, catchy name? – good luck Jnr, look forward to seeing how this model develops.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    ‘Smithson’s Marvellous Election Results Heuristics System (or SMERSH)’

    Er, catchy name? – good luck Jnr, look forward to seeing how this model develops.

    The definition of a bacronym ;-)

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I remember reading a short story by Asimov, I think, which described an extremely similar model. The result was that one elector was then chosen at random and that was sufficient to predict the election result, thus saving everyone else the bother.

    Once Robert has ironed out any kinks we can perhaps achieve the same thing here.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good luck RCS with this new innovation. We will all look forward to reading your predictions with considerable interest. Of course if you don't have Watford as a LibDem gain and at least 75% of LibDem MPs holding on, we assume there may be a disagreement within the Smithson family.

    Meanwhile up here in Eckland the big news of course which excited at least 10 people overnight is that Eck and the Darling are to debate next month. Obviously a warm up for the all-in wrestling at the Commonwealth Games, it is to be held at the Hydro so the audience will be limited to 16,000 party hacks. I can feel a great collective yawn coming over the Scottish people already.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I have also now got an advert on this thread which says "Add Monte Carlo simulation analysis to your Excel spreadsheet models".

    Google sometimes worries me.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    Perhaps the next one can be called SPECTRE? :D

    Perhaps TSE isn't the only PBer to wear interesting footwear ....

    Does Robert Smithson own a pair of Rosa Klebb-a-like poison knife shoes ?

    No but I bet his father does :)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Morning all. For the weekday crowd, I added two more posts over the weekend, looking at the Labour and Lib Dem battlegrounds respectively:

    http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/the-labour-battleground-in-june-2014.html

    http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/the-lib-dem-battleground-in-june-2014.html

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Robert

    Sounds interesting. We do a lot of simulations using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) but overnight is the longest we run. How many cores and how much RAM do you have?

    If you are using GE, Local and EU results, how are you going to manage the fact that people often vote differently (for perfectly valid reasons) for each of those types of election.?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    It's far too early on a Monday for my brain cells to get to grips with the thread topic. I must say it is instructive to see the rapid decline in vexillogic patriotism.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Financier said:

    Robert

    Sounds interesting. We do a lot of simulations using CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) but overnight is the longest we run. How many cores and how much RAM do you have?

    If you are using GE, Local and EU results, how are you going to manage the fact that people often vote differently (for perfectly valid reasons) for each of those types of election.?

    My guess is that these simulations use a tiny amount of RAM, but lots of computing power.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Sounds interesting Robert, look forward to seeing how accurate it is.

    Off topic

    "New high-speed rail link needed to boost north of England, Osborne to say"

    How about parliament is moved to Birmingham so that the centre of gravity in this country is shifted?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    On the topic of education,

    The poll also had a batch of questions about education in England – essentially showing appetite for reform in general, but opposition to the specifics of Michael Gove’s reforms. 43% think schools are doing well, 46% badly and people tend to think they provide worse education than in comparable European countries. 64% think schools need reforming to a large or moderate degree. Asked about Michael Gove though 55% think he’s doing badly as education secretary, people are opposed by 41% to 31% to schools becoming academies and by 53% to 23% to the idea of free schools.'
    Fromhttp://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8877?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+PollingReport+(UK+Polling+Report)


    Where are these millions of grateful parents?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good morning, everyone.

    I hope SMERSH does well, and that we have some more spy-related terms.

    Mr. Millsy, an English Parliament could be located further north. Doubt it will be, though.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Millsy said:

    Sounds interesting Robert, look forward to seeing how accurate it is.

    Off topic

    "New high-speed rail link needed to boost north of England, Osborne to say"

    How about parliament is moved to Birmingham so that the centre of gravity in this country is shifted?


    Morning all. What has Birmingham ever done to you to deserve such a fate?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,697
    edited June 2014
    Osnorne has just said on BBC that Leeds and Hull are geographically close together.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    "All models are wrong, but some are useful"
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeK said:

    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.

    You can't patent an idea
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.

    You can't patent an idea
    No, but you can patent pretty much everything else (see Apple et al. for examples!)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.

    You can't patent an idea
    This is more than an idea.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141


    it is to be held at the Hydro so the audience will be limited to 16,000 party hacks. I can feel a great collective yawn coming over the Scottish people already.

    That's not the Eck & Al show, it's being held in Edinburgh in front of a 'selected' audience of, I think, 500.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2014
    SPECTRE

    Smithson's Pre Electoral Computation To Rationalize Expectations
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Osnorne has just said on BBC that Leeds and Hull are geographically close together.

    So what? He is right, they cant be more than c50 miles apart.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.

    You can't patent an idea
    You can patent a Model.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Which polls are you using to (a) calibrate your model against previous general elections and (b) to forecast national share for the 2015GE?

    While VIPA did a better job of predicting the 2010 election than UNS (it was noticeably more pessimistic on the LibDems than UNS, for example), it was not perfect.

    It would be interesting to see some objective verification of this. Is it simply on the basis of the proportion of seats correctly forecast? What is the metric?

    I am looking forward to seeing the predictions.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    JackW said:

    Latest ARSE 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections Countdown :

    1 day 2 hours 3 minutes 4 seconds

    How long were you waiting by the computer before you clicked the "Post Comment" button.

  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Instead of SMERSH we should have THRUSH
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Good morning.
    Now Robert, surely a good idea is worth patenting. I'm certain that Nate Silver has his model patented and there is nothing to stop you. That is if it works, of course.

    You can't patent an idea
    This is more than an idea.
    You can patent the model details and the precise calculations. Not sure that the concept of modelling individual constituencies based on past historical results is patentable.

    But we probably need SouthamObserver to give us the definitive view!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    I want Vesper Lynd (Eva Green) not SMERSH.
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited June 2014
    It's nice to see the Osborne (and the Conservatives and, well, politicians) acknowledge the obvious fact that something needs to be done to correct the London-centricness of the economy, but the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    When they remember places outside of London exist (which isn't often), I think politicians in general know the north of England desperately needs growth, if only to take some of the pressure away from London, but have absolutely no idea how to effectively deliver it.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Blue_rog said:

    Instead of SMERSH we should have THRUSH

    On second thoughts I doubt if Dr 'Ducky' Mallard can be released from his current duties to fight against them!

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    test
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Oliver_PB said:

    It's nice to see the Osborne (and the Conservatives and, well, politicians) acknowledge the obvious fact that something needs to be done to correct the London-centricness of the economy, but the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    When they remember places outside of London exist (which isn't often), I think politicians in general know the north of England desperately needs growth, if only to take some of the pressure away from London, but have absolutely no idea how to effectively deliver it.

    I'm just stunned that Leeds still relies on a deregulated bus "system" to cart its people around. It and Bristol must be the only cities of any size without rapid transit. How about sorting that out?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Fett, there have been numerous proposals for (and cancellations of) tram systems in Leeds. The last one had, I think, rather a lot of money spent on it before funding was pulled (something like 2009 when it was cancelled).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Whats tbe difference between this and Rods monte carlo simulation ?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Oliver_PB said:

    ...the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    Building better transport links between the northern cities is exactly what needs to be done, and an improved trans-Pennine link should be top of the list.

    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.
    The problem with HS2 is that it effectively increases the size of the London market, which will help businesses based in London more than those outside of London.

    Leeds to Manchester is 45 miles by road. It takes at least 49 minutes by train [average speed 55mph]. Leeds to London is 195 miles by road, but takes from 2h12m by train [average speed 89mph]. Even if you only increased the Leeds to Manchester train speed to the Leeds to London speed you would reduce the journey time by about 20 minutes to just half an hour.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496


    it is to be held at the Hydro so the audience will be limited to 16,000 party hacks. I can feel a great collective yawn coming over the Scottish people already.

    That's not the Eck & Al show, it's being held in Edinburgh in front of a 'selected' audience of, I think, 500.

    Yes, the 12,000 first time voters one is just a publicity stunt , pretty pointless given they will get to ask a dozen questions at best. Hard to see what the point of it is.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I look forward to seeing the output of the model. I'm not going to pretend that I fully understand it. On the face of it, it seems to place much less weight on MP incumbency than I would have expected, but that may be because I haven't got to grips with its nuances.
  • From this morning's Times

    Rooney: "I'm not sure what's best; should I be on the left or the right or in the middle tucked in behind Sturridge"

    Hodgson: "Shut up and just get on the plane"
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    TGOHF said:

    Whats tbe difference between this and Rods monte carlo simulation ?

    One difference is that Rod's simulation uses MORI PM approval ratings to forecast the main party vote shares.

    Robert doesn't say what figures he uses for his model, but I expect it is different. I also think that Rod then uses UNS to derive seat totals from his party shares, but perhaps he will correct me on that point.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Oliver_PB said:

    It's nice to see the Osborne (and the Conservatives and, well, politicians) acknowledge the obvious fact that something needs to be done to correct the London-centricness of the economy, but the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    When they remember places outside of London exist (which isn't often), I think politicians in general know the north of England desperately needs growth, if only to take some of the pressure away from London, but have absolutely no idea how to effectively deliver it.

    That's because the market has no desire to deliver growth in the North. To do so requires some form of socialist intervention, and that, as we all know, is taboo.

    It will be interesting to see the attitude of Scottish Peebies to one consequence of their homeland's independence - a desire amongst northerners (in Northumbria and Cumbria at first, I expect) to secede from England and join them. I expect the Scots to be wholly opposed to this and to use all the arguments currently flying about - only in reverse.

    There are only two kinds of Celt: those who admit to despising the English, and those who tell lies about it.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I had not previously thought that Kippers were underrepresented online. But clearly Chuka Umunna knows better.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    malcolmg said:


    it is to be held at the Hydro so the audience will be limited to 16,000 party hacks. I can feel a great collective yawn coming over the Scottish people already.

    That's not the Eck & Al show, it's being held in Edinburgh in front of a 'selected' audience of, I think, 500.

    Yes, the 12,000 first time voters one is just a publicity stunt , pretty pointless given they will get to ask a dozen questions at best. Hard to see what the point of it is.
    Perhaps they'll have Galloway & Farage on as they did for a similar Scottish Question Time.

  • thomthumbthomthumb Posts: 2
    well done, Robert. If it works, expect an approach from the Treasury as it will be much cheaper than going to the bother of having an actual election.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    antifrank said:

    I had not previously thought that Kippers were underrepresented online. But clearly Chuka Umunna knows better.

    That should be his strap line when he stands for the Labour leadership in 2015. Sort of nails how he comes over...

    "Chuka Umunna knows better"
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited June 2014


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy? Especially with Birmingham only spitting distance away.
  • That's because the market has no desire to deliver growth in the North. To do so requires some form of socialist intervention, and that, as we all know, is taboo.

    Err....no. Socialist intervention never delivers growth. Ask Hollande. The way to deliver growth is to get the state out of the way. The North underperforms precisely because it is over-socialised, over dependent on the state. What it needs is pro-business reform.
  • thomthumbthomthumb Posts: 2
    Perhaps also the electorate would rather have a computer model telling them how they would have voted, rather than going to the bother of trudging to the polls AND THEN having to make your mind up between three or four charlatans. :-(
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Oliver_PB said:

    It's nice to see the Osborne (and the Conservatives and, well, politicians) acknowledge the obvious fact that something needs to be done to correct the London-centricness of the economy, but the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    When they remember places outside of London exist (which isn't often), I think politicians in general know the north of England desperately needs growth, if only to take some of the pressure away from London, but have absolutely no idea how to effectively deliver it.

    That's because the market has no desire to deliver growth in the North. To do so requires some form of socialist intervention, and that, as we all know, is taboo.

    It will be interesting to see the attitude of Scottish Peebies to one consequence of their homeland's independence - a desire amongst northerners (in Northumbria and Cumbria at first, I expect) to secede from England and join them. I expect the Scots to be wholly opposed to this and to use all the arguments currently flying about - only in reverse.

    There are only two kinds of Celt: those who admit to despising the English, and those who tell lies about it.

    Now that's just troll bait. But I'm still going to bite :)

    Regional economies change over time. There was a time when the North was largely an agrarian economy. Then the sea ports became important, in part driven by the need to import raw materials and export finished product: in times when overland travel was difficult and expensive it made sense to locate these seaports near the final destination. Over time, though, the finished product trade (textiles) automated and then migrated to lower cost economies, while the raw materials diminished in quantity and ease/cost of extraction.

    There are only three basic choices:

    1. Maintain a permanent subsidy to allow those currently living in these areas to remain there
    2. Allow these regions to develop a new economic purpose - this could be with or without a temporary subsidy
    3. Encourage people to move away to other areas of growth

    1 would probably, and 2 definitely, would require investment in infrastructure

    (As an aside, this isn't a new problem. I came across a fact recently - it was referring to with the 50s or 60s - which said that firms which wanted to expand employment in the South had to request permission from Whitehall to do so. And 20% of such requests were turned down! How f***ing crazy is that!)
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Oliver_PB said:


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy?
    Because they are too small, even in aggregate.
  • thomthumb said:

    well done, Robert. If it works, expect an approach from the Treasury as it will be much cheaper than going to the bother of having an actual election.

    ROFL
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    In entirely unrelated news, done a first blog tour thingummyjig (short Q&A on a certain character, in this case the rascal that is Sir Edric): http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/meet-my-character-blog-tour.html
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Mr. Fett, there have been numerous proposals for (and cancellations of) tram systems in Leeds. The last one had, I think, rather a lot of money spent on it before funding was pulled (something like 2009 when it was cancelled).

    Seems to be an ongoing fiasco up there over getting something off the ground - not sure what the main problem is. It's just embarrassing for Leeds - especially when Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham all have trams and Newcastle has an underground!
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited June 2014
    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    BobaFett said:

    Mr. Fett, there have been numerous proposals for (and cancellations of) tram systems in Leeds. The last one had, I think, rather a lot of money spent on it before funding was pulled (something like 2009 when it was cancelled).

    Seems to be an ongoing fiasco up there over getting something off the ground - not sure what the main problem is. It's just embarrassing for Leeds - especially when Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham all have trams and Newcastle has an underground!
    Leeds is an embarrassment full stop.

    Just look at their football club as an example.

    That said Leeds train station is rather fab.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    Osnorne has just said on BBC that Leeds and Hull are geographically close together.

    So what? He is right, they cant be more than c50 miles apart.
    About 60 miles according to google maps. But that's less than an hour by train.
  • Oliver_PB said:


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy? Especially with Birmingham only spitting distance away.
    They are rapidly becoming so. You only have to consider how their respective football clubs are progressing (well apart from Forest that is).

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Fett, couldn't say why the significant discrepancy exists. Excepting (I think) Birmingham and Manchester, Leeds is the largest British city outside of London, a transport hub and has a decent financial service sector. It's certainly large and prosperous enough.

    It also has surprisingly nice architecture, particularly on first floors and above (ground floors have often been modernised to a greater or lesser extent)..
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Oliver_PB said:


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy? Especially with Birmingham only spitting distance away.
    Manchester is clearly the second city and we should look to develop that first. It needs a GMA authority like the GLA and a directly elected mayor to speed up decision making. All areas within should be proud to be Manchester, parochial loyalties like 'Salford' should ebb away over time. Once that hub is fully developed, link to it, a la London in the SE.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    More on Labour and the internet:

    Labour says @UKIP voters are too dim to use the web. That's *this* Labour, right? pic.twitter.com/S8Om65rB5o

    — Daniel Hannan (@DanHannanMEP) June 23, 2014
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Osnorne has just said on BBC that Leeds and Hull are geographically close together.

    Does he regard Oxford and Central London as close ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    Just passed through there on the train on my way to Leeds. Burton is a fairly prosperous town in my experience.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    Today's tips (part 1)

    The Flamin' Galahs to beat Spain and Chile to defeat The Netherlands.

    Part II will be around 8pm when I see the teams
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397

    Oliver_PB said:


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy? Especially with Birmingham only spitting distance away.
    They are rapidly becoming so. You only have to consider how their respective football clubs are progressing (well apart from Forest that is).

    I live in the area and, well, to say I'm sceptical is the understatement of the century.

    And as late as the mid-90s, Leicester City, Derby Country and Nottingham Forest were all in the Premier League, so I don't see that as being a proxy for much.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Oliver_PB said:


    The benefit is that it makes it easier for Manchester business to do business in Leeds and Leeds businesses to do business in Manchester, enlarging the markets available to them.

    I'm far from sold. If that's the case, why aren't Derby, Nottingham and Leicester the powerhouses of the UK economy? Especially with Birmingham only spitting distance away.
    They are rapidly becoming so. You only have to consider how their respective football clubs are progressing (well apart from Forest that is).

    I'm not sure the progress of football clubs is a decent metric! Nottingham is a good regional capital with its infrastructure, nightlife and great transport but to suggest it is somehow the powerhouse of the economy is stretching a point beyond belief!
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Just caught up with Rachel Borng Snoring Reeve on Sunday Politics. Does any enlightened P-Ber know why Labour types as a policy only refer to Social Security instead of Welfare?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    @TSEofPB: I'm getting some weird adverts on PB http://t.co/0H5JY3P29Q
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    MikeK said:
    "One Twitter user, who calls himself Purpurmel on the site, joked: “As a 'Kipper I can assure Chuka Umunna I'll be at the Telegram Office first thing Monday morn to lodge my complaint.”


    Liked - that's the way to dispel the 'angry mob' label, others should try it more often.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    I would put it the other way round. Bad transport links are a barrier to prosperity, but building good transport links does not guarantee that prosperity will follow.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Nottingham's economy grew at 5.2% in 2012.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 1m
    #AlJazeera journalists Mohamed Fahmy, Baher Mohamed and Peter Greste jailed for seven years by an Egyptian court for helping terrorists

    Will Egypt now ban Al Jazeera?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    @TSEofPB: I'm getting some weird adverts on PB http://t.co/0H5JY3P29Q

    You shouldn't visit weird websites regularly - especially those of the pronofic variety or of those about young ladies you wish to add to your harem.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    I would put it the other way round. Bad transport links are a barrier to prosperity, but building good transport links does not guarantee that prosperity will follow.
    Being a transport driver is no barrier to prosperity in London - ferkers get 50k+ basic !
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Oliver_PB said:

    It's nice to see the Osborne (and the Conservatives and, well, politicians) acknowledge the obvious fact that something needs to be done to correct the London-centricness of the economy, but the idea of building a high speed rail link between northern cities seems utterly ridiculous to me. A high-speed link between Manchester and Leeds would just be a white elephant. It's not exactly HS2 where the WCML reaching capacity provides a good justification. It would be much smarter to invest in improving those cities internal public transport infrastructure.

    When they remember places outside of London exist (which isn't often), I think politicians in general know the north of England desperately needs growth, if only to take some of the pressure away from London, but have absolutely no idea how to effectively deliver it.

    Besides which, there's no reason for anyone to go to Manchester or Leeds, and people in the north wouldn't be able to afford the train fares "any rawd oop", as they say in those parts.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Bond, what do you mean by 'any rawd oop'?
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    I would put it the other way round. Bad transport links are a barrier to prosperity, but building good transport links does not guarantee that prosperity will follow.
    I have an abiding affection for Burton-upon-Trent that I can't really explain. 25 years ago it was on the fringers of my manor when I was a sales rep. One day out of curiosity I set off east from home instead of west and found myself in Burton. I seem to recall a town full of refinery-like towers full of lager. Overall, it wasn't as bad as Stoke.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    saddo said:

    Just caught up with Rachel Borng Snoring Reeve on Sunday Politics. Does any enlightened P-Ber know why Labour types as a policy only refer to Social Security instead of Welfare?

    saddo said:

    Just caught up with Rachel Borng Snoring Reeve on Sunday Politics. Does any enlightened P-Ber know why Labour types as a policy only refer to Social Security instead of Welfare?

    Thought she got completely Neiled (sic). She was hopeless.
  • saddo said:

    Just caught up with Rachel Borng Snoring Reeve on Sunday Politics. Does any enlightened P-Ber know why Labour types as a policy only refer to Social Security instead of Welfare?

    Because it contains that lovely word "Social", as in "Socialists", they love it.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    I had not previously thought that Kippers were underrepresented online. But clearly Chuka Umunna knows better.

    Aren't they over-represented in online polls?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    antifrank said:

    Nottingham's economy grew at 5.2% in 2012.

    Attendance at Nick Palmer's mid term speeches reaches new heights ?

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Patrick said:

    That's because the market has no desire to deliver growth in the North. To do so requires some form of socialist intervention, and that, as we all know, is taboo.

    Err....no. Socialist intervention never delivers growth. Ask Hollande. The way to deliver growth is to get the state out of the way. The North underperforms precisely because it is over-socialised, over dependent on the state. What it needs is pro-business reform.

    This is clearly not true for a student of history. The Soviet Union achieved a lot of growth from state-led industrialisation. It could only go so far, however, and led to all sorts of distortions and other problems, but it likely made them an industrial economy far faster than a free market would have.

    The best way to deliver growth is to have the right regulation, which can mean deregulation but can also mean govt intervention to encourage competition (e.g. anti-trust laws), and also to have the right enablers in place, like education, infrastructure etc.
  • woody662woody662 Posts: 255

    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    I would put it the other way round. Bad transport links are a barrier to prosperity, but building good transport links does not guarantee that prosperity will follow.
    I have an abiding affection for Burton-upon-Trent that I can't really explain. 25 years ago it was on the fringers of my manor when I was a sales rep. One day out of curiosity I set off east from home instead of west and found myself in Burton. I seem to recall a town full of refinery-like towers full of lager. Overall, it wasn't as bad as Stoke.
    I was born in Burton so it can't be all bad. Horrific place to get around though, traffic lights and bridges ect. Next to the A38 which is good for transport links.

    On the issue of prosperity and transport links though, the A42 is this area is a good example of a transport link making the areas off it a hub for distribution. Had a big economic impact.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Oliver_PB said:

    Someone who thinks that transport links are the drivers of prosperity has never visited Burton-upon-Trent.

    I would put it the other way round. Bad transport links are a barrier to prosperity, but building good transport links does not guarantee that prosperity will follow.
    I have an abiding affection for Burton-upon-Trent that I can't really explain. 25 years ago it was on the fringers of my manor when I was a sales rep. One day out of curiosity I set off east from home instead of west and found myself in Burton. I seem to recall a town full of refinery-like towers full of lager. Overall, it wasn't as bad as Stoke.
    Killed the London porter firms with their diluted muck
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    Good morning, everyone.

    I hope SMERSH does well, and that we have some more spy-related terms.

    Mr. Millsy, an English Parliament could be located further north. Doubt it will be, though.

    I think he was talking about a UK Parliament - but we should perhaps wait till September ...
    John_M said:

    Millsy said:

    Sounds interesting Robert, look forward to seeing how accurate it is.

    Off topic

    "New high-speed rail link needed to boost north of England, Osborne to say"

    How about parliament is moved to Birmingham so that the centre of gravity in this country is shifted?


    Morning all. What has Birmingham ever done to you to deserve such a fate?
    Quite. Shap services on the M6 would be the best location for the UK Parliament. It's bang in the geographical centre of the UK and has plenty of space and excellent transport links with the odd old airfield down by Carlisle or Preston and a natural extension to HS2.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334



    [edited for space] That's because the market has no desire to deliver growth in the North. To do so requires some form of socialist intervention, and that, as we all know, is taboo.

    It will be interesting to see the attitude of Scottish Peebies to one consequence of their homeland's independence - a desire amongst northerners (in Northumbria and Cumbria at first, I expect) to secede from England and join them. I expect the Scots to be wholly opposed to this and to use all the arguments currently flying about - only in reverse.

    There are only two kinds of Celt: those who admit to despising the English, and those who tell lies about it.

    My dear Mr Innocent, that last sentence is either a fib or a joke, and you know it perfectly well. Besides, your apparent understanding of the Scots is dangerously undermined by your equation of Celt with Scot (however apt it might be for the Welsh and the Cornwelsh).

    But more seriously: I doubt there would be any serious intention to return to the days when Northumbria and Cumbria were ruled from Edin's Burgh. (And if there were, it would be a dreadful reflection on EWNI.)

    The Scots have after all been making the point that their border has been stable for about 700 or 900 years or whatever it was (apart from one footie pitch on the south bank of the Tweed - it was the Scots village who won the last game with their English oppos centuries ago, hence the way the border kinks there). Hence their displeasure at attempted annexation of e.g. chunks of the North Sea by Blair, or Coulport/Faslane by Mr Hammond and MoD (proposed). I think they will have enough to do without taking on the problems of the North of England. And there are strategic sites in the North too - nuclear power, shipbuilding (well, subs at Barrow), waste processing, water, wind power, oil and gas in the seas to east and west, and other resources - which Westminster might be loathe to cede.

    However, there is in fact one part of the UK where return to Scotland might be an option given the surprisingly anomalous legal situation - Berwick and its immediate hinterland - and where a plebiscite might well vote for reunion given the local paper's voodoo survey a few years back.
  • "I will also – when I’ve cleaned up the code considerably (which may be some time) – release the Python source code of my simulation."

    Please tell us it's not Angus Reid.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: post-race analysis of a tense rather than dramatic Austrian Grand Prix up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/austria-post-race-analysis.html

    Found the race a little lacklustre. It'll be interesting to see if Williams can stay so close to Mercedes at Silverstone (I doubt it, to be honest).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Invasion of the Viking babies
    With a growing demand for donor fathers, women are turning to Danish sperm banks"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10918344/Invasion-of-the-Viking-babies.html
  • Carnyx said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I hope SMERSH does well, and that we have some more spy-related terms.

    Mr. Millsy, an English Parliament could be located further north. Doubt it will be, though.

    I think he was talking about a UK Parliament - but we should perhaps wait till September ...
    John_M said:

    Millsy said:

    Sounds interesting Robert, look forward to seeing how accurate it is.

    Off topic

    "New high-speed rail link needed to boost north of England, Osborne to say"

    How about parliament is moved to Birmingham so that the centre of gravity in this country is shifted?


    Morning all. What has Birmingham ever done to you to deserve such a fate?
    Quite. Shap services on the M6 would be the best location for the UK Parliament. It's bang in the geographical centre of the UK and has plenty of space and excellent transport links with the odd old airfield down by Carlisle or Preston and a natural extension to HS2.

    ..... and they do an excellent sausage, egg and chips.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    edited June 2014
    Re SMERSH (and good morning to all from Toronto...):

    The principle of the system is that - given national percentages for Lab, Con, Lib, UKIP - it produces constituency level forecasts for actual votes. This is achieved by looking at the propensity of a voter in any constituency to change their mind - which is calculated/inferred from looking at previous election forecasts.

    Re incumbency: seats with high incumbency have relatively small changes in share for the incumbent party relative to the national trend. This is not based on something hardcoded, but on local, general and European election data.

    Re people voting differently at local and national: actually that works in favour of this model. Think of it like this for a fictional seat:

    2014 locals - national 30, local 25
    2014 european - national 25, local 22
    2012 locals - national 27, local 23
    2010 GE - national 34, local 32
    2005 GE - national 29, local 26
    2001 GE - national 28, local 24

    These are basically 'dots' on a scatter chart, and then a curve is created that (broadly) matches these. In this way, we should be able to back out what level of constituency level support there is for a given level of national support.

    So, having a low bound of c. 6% nationally for the Euros shows how the LibDems perform at the vote level in a constituency, while having a high bound of 25% for them at the 2010 general. This gives the model a fairly wide range of numbers to work on.

    That being said, this system has more data for constituencies where they elect councillors on a third/a third/a third basis, and less for ones where they are elected ever four years. Likewise, it it very sensitive to garbage in, garbage out: so, entering forecasts way outside any that a political party has ever had before will result in strange predictions.

This discussion has been closed.