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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May moves up 15 points and now clear leader in ConH

SystemSystem Posts: 11,691
edited June 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May moves up 15 points and now clear leader in ConHome poll on next party leader

It’s hard to see why there’s been such movement in the ConHome regular survey of party members’ views on who should be Dave’s successor.

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    edited June 2014
    It was her speech to the Police wot done it.

    She's a star, She should get a title like "Slayer of the Police Federation"

    Here's the speech

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27504422
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    She's outlasted her last three predecessors combined and she's also going all medieval on Michael Gove

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/04/theresa-may-gove-extremism-schools-trojan-horse
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TSE is probably right but much of the speech was claptrap designed to boost May's leadership prospects, unless the Home Secretary really does believe the Federation actually runs our police forces.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Politician gets popular stuff done and becomes popular.

    It will never catch on.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Absolutely no surprise to see Theresa May's popularity rise in this survey after that speech she gave to the Police Federation on the eve of the Local/Euro elections. It got a lot of favourable media coverage.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Although worth noting, the front runnner never seems to win Conservative leadership races.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047
    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    May wants to win and even at 4/1 is probably value. The danger is that being too obvious might provoke a reaction against her, especially among activists looking to shore up 2015. Ask Hestletine or Portillo. As noted on the last thread, the Home Secretary is also picking a public fight with Gove over Trojan Horse schools.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27691901
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    She's a former Bank of England employee (more on the operations side than policy IIRC)

    She's noted for her taste in footwear, which is the hallmark of a very good Tory.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    Backs:

    Phillip Hammond
    20.84 £14.00

    Theresa May
    7.68 £5.00

    Lays:

    Phillip Hammond
    14 £10.00

    Michael Gove
    5.9 £13.00

    George Osborne
    6 £10.00

    Gove and Osborne backed at the bookies for bigger prices.

    Will make about £30 on the market if May gets it.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    What's Boris' best price with the bookies ?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited June 2014
    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    Would the lefts depression at 2-0 on the female PM scoresheet be terminal ?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    Pulpstar said:

    What's Boris' best price with the bookies ?

    5/1 with William Hill
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    I've just laid the 4.3 and 4.4 wanting to back Boris on the Betfair market. He's 5-1 with Hills :D
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited June 2014
    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers.
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    You seem troubled by the suggestion that she might become Tory leader.

    As for NASTY, that would appear to be UKIP these days.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    She's a former Bank of England employee (more on the operations side than policy IIRC)

    She's noted for her taste in footwear, which is the hallmark of a very good Tory.
    Bank of England? That's public sector -- obviously a Labour voter then (or isn't that how the logic goes?)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    No, she said others call us the nasty party.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014
    Afternoon all.

    Just think. It was only two weeks ago that most of thought UKIP was going to be a threat.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    edited June 2014

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    She's a former Bank of England employee (more on the operations side than policy IIRC)

    She's noted for her taste in footwear, which is the hallmark of a very good Tory.
    Bank of England? That's public sector -- obviously a Labour voter then (or isn't that how the logic goes?)
    Its is ethos is private sector, even after Attlee nationalised it.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,775
    MikeK said:

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Whereas you are a model of charm and charity.....

    As it happens, I knew Theresa at University - "nasty" she is not......but I wouldn't relish being Michael Gove today......

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    Pulpstar said:

    I've just laid the 4.3 and 4.4 wanting to back Boris on the Betfair market. He's 5-1 with Hills :D

    I've just added Jeremy Hunt to my portfolio of next Tory leader.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Theresa May - weak on getting immigration numbers down, weak on handing powers over to Brussels, weak on civil liberties. She'd be an awful Tory leader.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Kippers unhappy that a women might be getting above her station ? She'll be wanting to tee off on a Saturday morning before 11am next.
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited June 2014
    She would be a disaster for the United Kingdom. The praise of her tenure at the Home Office is vastly inflated. She has pursued pure Blairism, in a particularly ghastly fashion. I see there is a proposal of hers in the Speech from the Throne to reduce the crown's liability (which currently falls on the police) for riot damages. This is disgraceful. If crown servants are incapable of keeping the peace as they are sworn to do, then they should pay the full extent of the damages, as the law currently requires.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Socrates said:

    Theresa May - weak on getting immigration numbers down, weak on handing powers over to Brussels, weak on civil liberties. She'd be an awful Tory leader.

    That's the endorsement she's been waiting for to put her over the top!

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    As it happens, I knew Theresa at University - "nasty" she is not......

    You're not ex-Hugh's are you?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just laid the 4.3 and 4.4 wanting to back Boris on the Betfair market. He's 5-1 with Hills :D

    I've just added Jeremy Hunt to my portfolio of next Tory leader.
    His last Betfair matched price is 3.75, even though the back and lay sides are both longer than that - seems weird...

    Wasn't you was it ?
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Kippers unhappy that a women might be getting above her station ? She'll be wanting to tee off on a Saturday morning before 11am next.
    Heaven forbid. Kippers would expect her to be in the kitchen at that hour.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Neil said:

    Socrates said:

    Theresa May - weak on getting immigration numbers down, weak on handing powers over to Brussels, weak on civil liberties. She'd be an awful Tory leader.

    That's the endorsement she's been waiting for to put her over the top!

    And confirmed by Life_ina_market_town. Pile on!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just laid the 4.3 and 4.4 wanting to back Boris on the Betfair market. He's 5-1 with Hills :D

    I've just added Jeremy Hunt to my portfolio of next Tory leader.
    His last Betfair matched price is 3.75, even though the back and lay sides are both longer than that - seems weird...

    Wasn't you was it ?
    Nope, I took the 20/1 that William Hll are currently offering.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.
    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,775

    As it happens, I knew Theresa at University - "nasty" she is not......

    You're not ex-Hugh's are you?
    No - met her thru the Union.....and the Edmund Burke Society, where she once led an "expulsion by the college of ex-Presidents" of a particularly tedious speaker.....

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    She's a former Bank of England employee (more on the operations side than policy IIRC)

    She's noted for her taste in footwear, which is the hallmark of a very good Tory.
    Bank of England? That's public sector -- obviously a Labour voter then (or isn't that how the logic goes?)
    Its is ethos is private sector, even after Attlee nationalised it.
    Indeed one of the great progressive failures was not turning the BofE into a proper public institution. Instead it largely remained as a supporter of the vested interests in the city. It used to be that the Governors were chosen from the big banks, as if poachers can become gamekeepers. To his credit Mervyn King did say he wanted people focused on public service. Whether ex-Goldman man Carney is so committed is hard to say.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Kippers unhappy that a women might be getting above her station ? She'll be wanting to tee off on a Saturday morning before 11am next.
    Heaven forbid. Kippers would expect her to be in the kitchen at that hour.
    Which party is less likely to have a female leader - LDs or Kippers ?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited June 2014

    It was her speech to the Police wot done it.

    Exactly - she gave both barrels to the police federation with no sugar coating. Brilliant stuff.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27504422

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    I like Theresa May.

    I have said before on PB that politicians need to be good at both the retail side of things / getting elected and also at being an effective / competent manager when in office.

    May just quietly gets on and does a great job. She is terribly, sometimes brutally, effective. But she doesn’t make a lot of noise about it. She displays an astonishingly low ‘mouth to trousers’ ratio. The exact opposite of most of our rentagob chocolate teapot politicians.

    And she says what she thinks – which is refreshingly unusual compared to most modern machine politicians. She’d be a super party leader. But she would need to polish the marketing / messaging side of things.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    TSE is probably right but much of the speech was claptrap designed to boost May's leadership prospects, unless the Home Secretary really does believe the Federation actually runs our police forces.

    What utter bollox - as home secretary, it was her duty to confront the fed with their corruption, sleaze and cover-ups. Her message was clear, get your act together, oh, and no more funding from the public purse.
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited June 2014
    The government's Serious Crime Bill (from the summary that the BBC are reporting) looks like more authoritarian madness. It is said to be as follows:
    The laws on recovering criminal assets will be strengthened. The scope of serious crime prevention orders will be extended. A new offence of knowingly participating in an organised crime group will be created. The possession of "paedophilic manuals" will be made a criminal offence. There will be tougher sentences for cybercriminals and those disabling computer systems. A new offence of causing psychological harm to children through parental neglect will be created. Habitual as well as permanent residents of the UK will be liable for prosecution for female genital mutilation. Those suspected of attending terrorist training camps abroad, such as in Syria, and other acts preparatory to terrorism will be liable for prosecution in the UK.
    This sort of stuff would make David Blunkett proud.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014
    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Yes, blame it on her being a woman. Not the fact that immigration numbers are TWICE what the party pledged. Never mind allowing Brits to be hauled off in front of foreign courts and stripped of their traditional liberties. Never mind the catastrophe with border lines at our airports. Never mind her full throated backing for the snooper's charter, so the government can go through innocent people's private communications. Never mind the gaping holes in our immigration system that need Panorama and the Daily Mail to discover it.

    We oppose her because she's crap. The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited June 2014
    "It’s hard to see why there’s been such movement in the ConHome regular survey of party members’ views on who should be Dave’s successor."

    Erm.... or not.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Slightly strange article stating that the Green party is on course to "storm" Norwich South in 2015 but that Labour are favourites to win:

    http://www.columnist.org.uk/2014/06/02/greens-on-course-to-storm-norwich-south-in-2015/

    Fwiw I think this is a slam dunk Labour gain but the Greens will be hoping to move into a position that they can contend from in the future.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,775

    This sort of stuff would make David Blunkett proud.

    What do you find particularly objectionable?

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    . The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    She punted Hamza out...
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Wrong, Theresa May accused others of calling the Tories 'nasty' - perhaps you are confusing her with Labour MP Hazel Blears, who did described the Labour party as “Wicked and malicious”.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2014
    As always when considering a Next Leader market, the key thing is to try to understand the dynamics of the actual selection process. The Conservative leadership selection system is a rather odd one, with a set of elimination votes amongst MPs culminating in a choice of just two being presented to the party members. This is an invitation for tactical manoeuvering amonsgt MPs, because to get your favoured candidate to win, you need to try to engineer that the other candidate in the last round is one whom enough members will want to stop winning. (A good if rather regrettable example was the choice of IDS, whose principal attraction was not being Ken Clarke).

    On this basis, and with the important proviso that a huge amount depends on when and under what circumstances any contest might take place, I think Theresa May is in a very good position. She has few enemies, and although the party still finds it hard to forgive the damage done by her 'nasty party' remarks (which, though she was making a sensible point, were a gift to the party's opponents), her highly successful tenure as Home Sec - surely the best Home Sec for decades - and her calm, non-nonsense style, have won her pretty widespread support. If she were to get into the last round against any of Boris, Gove, Osborne or Hunt (realistically the main other candidates in the shortish term), I think she'd win against any of them.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited June 2014
    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    No surprise. Let her deport some of those terrorist muslim types first, and see if she not just all talk. She hasn't had much success with deporting undesirables, and if you bring up the EU that wouldn't be a surprise.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    TSE is probably right but much of the speech was claptrap designed to boost May's leadership prospects, unless the Home Secretary really does believe the Federation actually runs our police forces.

    What utter bollox - as home secretary, it was her duty to confront the fed with their corruption, sleaze and cover-ups. Her message was clear, get your act together, oh, and no more funding from the public purse.
    Hillsborough, Iain Tomlinson, Stephen Lawrence, stop-and-search, racism and corruption. Serious issues no doubt but none of them are the responsibility of the Federation. ACPO maybe, or individual forces, but blaming the Federation is like lambasting traffic wardens for painting double yellow lines outside your house. And the Home Secretary knows this. The speech was written not for the police but for voters in the 2015 leadership election.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Yes, blame it on her being a woman. Not the fact that immigration numbers are TWICE what the party pledged. Never mind allowing Brits to be hauled off in front of foreign courts and stripped of their traditional liberties. Never mind the catastrophe with border lines at our airports. Never mind her full throated backing for the snooper's charter, so the government can go through innocent people's private communications. Never mind the gaping holes in our immigration system that need Panorama and the Daily Mail to discover it.

    We oppose her because she's crap. The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    Last week you were blaming her for stuff that isn't part of her remit.

    So I consider this progress.

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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Yes, blame it on her being a woman. Not the fact that immigration numbers are TWICE what the party pledged. Never mind allowing Brits to be hauled off in front of foreign courts and stripped of their traditional liberties. Never mind the catastrophe with border lines at our airports. Never mind her full throated backing for the snooper's charter, so the government can go through innocent people's private communications. Never mind the gaping holes in our immigration system that need Panorama and the Daily Mail to discover it.

    We oppose her because she's crap. The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    Last week you were blaming her for stuff that isn't part of her remit.

    So I consider this progress.

    I made a mistake, and when corrected, admitted that mistake. It's what intellectually honest people do.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,775
    MikeK said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Let her deport some of those terrorist muslim types first, and see if she not just all talk. She hasn't had much success with deporting undesirables
    You mean like Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada, on trial in the US & Jordan?

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014
    The Good News gets better by the day

    This time Markit's Services PMI, the last of the big three published on the first three days of each month. At 58.6 it is only 0.1 down on April making it the most robust of the three indices published this month.

    Staff recruitment was up at the "fastest rate since May 1997" with most respondents reporting higher average wages.

    High confidence persists with over 50% of respondents forecasting expansion over the next twelve months. Increases in new work, extended backlogs (for the fourteenth month in a row), high levels of market activity, launches of new services and increased investment in business expansion were all reported.

    And the downsides of such robust growth? Wage increases have led to input cost inflation which is finally being passed through to billings. Early days yet but this is the first sign of spare capacity in the services sector disappearing.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    @ThescreamingEagles Following you in on that, 20-1 is a fair price for Hunt.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    As for Theresa May I take the view politically that if you have Norman Baker in your department and don't end up in frustration marmalising all the police at the Downing Street gates, then you've been an unqualified success.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeK

    'No surprise. Let her deport some of those terrorist muslim types first, and see if she not just all talk. She hasn't had much success with deporting undesirables, '

    Ever heard of Abu Hamza or Abu Qatada ,both played the system for years,now deported.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    MikeK said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Let her deport some of those terrorist muslim types first, and see if she not just all talk. She hasn't had much success with deporting undesirables
    You mean like Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada, on trial in the US & Jordan?

    Oh you and your facts.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    @ThescreamingEagles Following you in on that, 20-1 is a fair price for Hunt.

    It is. (What's the smiley for 'smug git'? I'm on at 66/1 from a while back)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    Neil said:

    Slightly strange article stating that the Green party is on course to "storm" Norwich South in 2015 but that Labour are favourites to win:

    http://www.columnist.org.uk/2014/06/02/greens-on-course-to-storm-norwich-south-in-2015/

    Fwiw I think this is a slam dunk Labour gain but the Greens will be hoping to move into a position that they can contend from in the future.

    @Antifrank tipped the greens up at 25s, now 8-1, Labour 1-10 !
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited June 2014

    What do you find particularly objectionable?

    Pretty much all of it. The powers to recover the proceeds of crime are already extraordinarily stringent and broad, and there is a concern that they may be used a revenue raising device rather than as a punishment. There is no case for "strengthening" them, which will in fact mean reducing safeguards and making it more likely that non-criminal property is subject to confiscation. The creation of an offence of knowingly participating in an organised crime group looks to be yet another way of the Crown avoiding having to prove conspiracy, or any substantive crime, and further resort to guilt by association. Note how the principles it was once claimed would only apply to "terrorists" are now being extended to "serious crime". As for the proposals relating to Syria, the terrorism legislation should be repealed, not extended.

    The creation of an offence of having a "paedophilic manual" is unnecessary pandering to the tabloids. The proposed new offence of causing psychological harm to a child is again pandering to a well-orchestrated lobbying campaign by vested interests, is impossibly broad and ill-defined, as well as being otiose given the existing law. In essence, most of it is an assault on due process, legal certainty and the liberty of the subject and should be opposed by all right-thinking people.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Basically I backed May at 5-1 because Tories like being told what to do by a woman,as all the male Tories in Thatcher's early cabinets exemplify.It probably comes from the early years as a cry for nanny.
    The leadership qualities that Cameron threatened to show are themselves exemplified by the "greenest government ever" approach in allowing more methane leaked in to the atmosphere by a subsidised dash to frack.Cameron simply is not up to the job.
    The Tory party need a woman,and now.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    TGOHF said:

    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    . The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    She punted Hamza out...
    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    Tories are allowing them to be seduced too easily because they want another Thatcher. But May is no Thatcher. You need to look beyond the small individual causes (the Police Fed, Hamza) and look at the big picture. On most of the big issues (European integration, civil liberties, individual privacy, etc) she's on the wrong side of the argument, and even when she's on the right side (immigration) she's been incapable of seeing it through. She doesn't have either the principles or the competence needed.
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    Pulpstar said:

    @ThescreamingEagles Following you in on that, 20-1 is a fair price for Hunt.

    I am on Hunt at 33/1, having backed him post-Leveson, when many considered him dead in the water. The Tories would, however, be mad to make him leader.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,828
    edited June 2014
    It depends what happens at the election.

    If the Tories lose, I would say Theresa is in a great position to become LOTO and possibly PM in 2020.

    If Cameron wins then the earliest time they'll be a vacancy is after the 2017 referendum, in which case I'd say her time will come and go (but that's also true of Osborne and Boris)

    Timing is everything in politics.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    Wrong, Theresa May accused others of calling the Tories 'nasty' - perhaps you are confusing her with Labour MP Hazel Blears, who did described the Labour party as “Wicked and malicious”.
    Listen to that speech again @SimonStClare, Theresa May said that others called the Tories "The Nasty Party", she then said that those calling the Tories nasty were correct, thereby agreeing with her parties enemies. With friends like her......................
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Pulpstar said:

    @ThescreamingEagles Following you in on that, 20-1 is a fair price for Hunt.

    I am on Hunt at 33/1, having backed him post-Leveson, when many considered him dead in the water. The Tories would, however, be mad to make him leader.
    The list is full of weak candidates. Gove and Hammond seem like the most principled and capable people, though Gove seems to rub people up the wrong way.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,935
    I'm following the ABB strategy for the Con leadership - Anyone but Boris.
  • Options
    Recovering criminal assets – yup, I’m OK with that.

    The scope of serious crime prevention orders will be extended – erm…not sure. ‘Serious crime’ refers to organized crime so yup, probably OK.

    Knowingly participating in an organised crime group - yup, join the Mafia or Al Qaeda and do some bird. OK with that.

    The possession of "paedophilic manuals" will be made a criminal offence. – Yup, there is no excuse whatever for buying pictures of men raping children and thus creating a market for such. OK with that.

    There will be tougher sentences for cybercriminals and those disabling computer systems. – Erm…probably OK. Genuine e-vandalism definitely should be a crime. Possible woolly zone in the hacking/Snowden/public interest area.

    A new offence of causing psychological harm to children through parental neglect will be created. – No. This is out and out bollocks and must surely come from the Lib Dems.

    Habitual as well as permanent residents of the UK will be liable for prosecution for female genital mutilation. – Ok with that. Bastards.

    Those suspected of attending terrorist training camps abroad, such as in Syria, and other acts preparatory to terrorism will be liable for prosecution in the UK – OK with that. Cu#^s.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Basically I backed May at 5-1 because Tories like being told what to do by a woman,as all the male Tories in Thatcher's early cabinets exemplify.It probably comes from the early years as a cry for nanny.
    The leadership qualities that Cameron threatened to show are themselves exemplified by the "greenest government ever" approach in allowing more methane leaked in to the atmosphere by a subsidised dash to frack.Cameron simply is not up to the job.
    The Tory party need a woman,and now.

    And the nearly all male cabinet will sharpen their knives to the sharpest edge. We all know what happens next.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    john_zims said:

    @MikeK

    'No surprise. Let her deport some of those terrorist muslim types first, and see if she not just all talk. She hasn't had much success with deporting undesirables, '

    Ever heard of Abu Hamza or Abu Qatada ,both played the system for years,now deported.

    The problem with Kippers is that they regard the Tories as the Nastase Party.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,775
    Socrates said:

    TGOHF said:

    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    . The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    She punted Hamza out...
    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.
    You'd have Home Secretaries mounting prosecutions? If you accept LIAMT's analysis, you really shouldn't be giving her ideas!

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    Socrates said:

    The list is full of weak candidates. Gove and Hammond seem like the most principled and capable people, though Gove seems to rub people up the wrong way.

    I reckon Hammond would be the most likely to win a majority at a general election, but doubt he would win a leadership election. The capacity of the Tory Party for choosing poor leaders is enormous. Just look at the incumbent.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4690550.stm

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1948507.ece

    You seem delighted that the Americans don't worry about those pesky civil liberties' concerns in this case.
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    Patrick said:

    The possession of "paedophilic manuals" will be made a criminal offence. – Yup, there is no excuse whatever for buying pictures of men raping children and thus creating a market for such. OK with that.

    The making, distribution and possession of child pornography is already a criminal offence under the Protection of Children Act 1978, the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and other statutes, and is subject to severe penalties. This proposal has nothing whatever to do with child pornography.
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    Patrick said:

    The possession of "paedophilic manuals" will be made a criminal offence. – Yup, there is no excuse whatever for buying pictures of men raping children and thus creating a market for such. OK with that.

    The making, distribution and possession of child pornography is already a criminal offence under the Protection of Children Act 1978, the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and other statutes, and is subject to severe penalties. This proposal has nothing whatever to do with child pornography.
    OK. Thanks for this. What's it all about then?
  • Options


    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering.

    That BBC piece is absolutely hilarious. The spokesmen for the "human rights" industry are advocating the admissibility of evidence which could incriminate defendants, and evidence which has been collected on the authority of a warrant signed by a member of the executive, not a judge. Intercept evidence should be excluded.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014

    Socrates said:

    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4690550.stm

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1948507.ece

    You seem delighted that the Americans don't worry about those pesky civil liberties' concerns in this case.
    My problem with electronic surveillance, as I have said on multiple occasions, is that it is being used on a mass basis and covering people who are not connected to any investigation, for whom the polite have no warrant and no reason for probable cause. If someone is connected to a specific investigation, I am very comfortable with wiretaps, and evidence from that being used in courts. It is entirely legitimate to wiretap the conversations of a terrorist group in Yemen in a way it is not legitimate to wiretap millions of innocent Britons in a dragnet.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    George Osborne is the candidate to be on.

    It is not what he has done to date but what he is yet to deliver.

    Not electing him as leader in 2017 would be like busting the bank at a casino then walking out without tipping the croupier.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    The list is full of weak candidates. Gove and Hammond seem like the most principled and capable people, though Gove seems to rub people up the wrong way.

    I reckon Hammond would be the most likely to win a majority at a general election, but doubt he would win a leadership election. The capacity of the Tory Party for choosing poor leaders is enormous. Just look at the incumbent.
    Looking up Hammond's views, I find he was in favour of the snoopers' charter on all our phone records. I think the Tories would do well to look for someone in the next generation.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    TGOHF said:

    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    . The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    She punted Hamza out...
    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.
    You'd have Home Secretaries mounting prosecutions? If you accept LIAMT's analysis, you really shouldn't be giving her ideas!

    A fair point.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,412

    As a non-Tory she would be my choice. Best of a bad bunch. Not really sure where she fits into the party though. She was one of the Portillistas, then there was the infamous nasty party jibe and now the self-styled tough Home secretary. That before we get onto economic policy. Who is she?

    I don't understand this love-in with Theresa May. During the early 2000s (when I was a university branch chairman) I attended a couple of spring conferences, campaign weekends, and a conference when IDS was leader, and she was Chairman of the Conservative Party. I heard her give speeches on three occasions. They were some of the most vapid and insipid speeches as I'd heard from any of the shadow cabinet, and highly uninspiring. On two occasions I asked her clear questions on her views on the future direction of party policy, to which she failed to provide answers. She gave some waffling politician non-answers, and then talked about something else in her response instead. I had several people come up to me afterwards to comment that they were disappointed she hadn't answered my questions on one occasion. She tended to disappear pretty sharpish after her speeches too, and, IIRC, never made herself particularly available to converse and hob-nob with ordinary members afterwards. Unlike some others.

    At the time, she was only known for two things: her 'nasty party' observation, and her shoes. She seemed pretty happy to be famous for the latter, and for her profile to be raised by the former. She was not popular.

    Now, I don't doubt she's ambitious and a survivor. She's also clearly diligent, and a very hard worker. She has probably shaved off 25-35,000 off the annual net immigration numbers through her reforms, but nothing like the 55-70% reduction to the 'tens of thousands' she promised.

    I don't rule anything out. But I'll need a lot more convincing from her supporters to even begin to believe she's the answer for the future Conservative Party. For many of the reasons Socrates identifies. I just don't trust her.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2014
    @Socrates - But that is complete nonsense, because the only way the intelligence services get to know who to focus on is precisely by monitoring message flows across the network. They'll have discovered those dodgy groups by following links from messages of innocent citizens.

    Basically, you are asking the intelligence services to find terrorists by magic, without doing any of the intelligence work. You can't have it both ways: if you want the Hamzas of this world to be prosecuted, and terrorist attacks to be averted, someone has to figure out where to start looking. The only way to do that is to follow millions and millions of links, almost all of them completely innocent.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    Socrates said:

    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4690550.stm

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1948507.ece

    You seem delighted that the Americans don't worry about those pesky civil liberties' concerns in this case.
    Once again Richard Nabavi grossly misrepresents someone's position to score a cheap point.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Socrates said:

    Looking up Hammond's views, I find he was in favour of the snoopers' charter on all our phone records. I think the Tories would do well to look for someone in the next generation.

    You won't find any mainstream politician, in any Western democracy, who is anywhere near power, who takes your view. Has it never occurred to you that they might have a point, and that you are being naive?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Socrates said:

    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4690550.stm

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1948507.ece

    You seem delighted that the Americans don't worry about those pesky civil liberties' concerns in this case.
    Once again Richard Nabavi grossly misrepresents someone's position to score a cheap point.
    Yes, it was a very cheap point indeed - it cost me very little research to substantiate it
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    @Socrates - But that is complete nonsense, because the only way the intelligence services get to know who to focus on is precisely by monitoring message flows across the network. They'll have discovered those dodgy groups by following links from messages of innocent citizens.

    Basically, you are asking the intelligence services to find terrorists by magic, without doing any of the intelligence work. You can't have it both ways: if you want the Hamzas of this world to be prosecuted, and terrorist attacks to be averted, someone has to figure out where to start looking. The only way to do that is to follow millions and millions of links, almost all of them completely innocent.

    One wonders how it was ever possible for any government security organisation to catch anyone before they started bugging everyone. Hamza was well know for his activities with no recourse to electronic bugging and as Socrates has very patiently pointed out to you he (and I) have no objection to targeted surveillance covered by a specific warrant.

    That is a long way indeed from the sort of Big Brother state you are so keen on defending.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Looking up Hammond's views, I find he was in favour of the snoopers' charter on all our phone records. I think the Tories would do well to look for someone in the next generation.

    You won't find any mainstream politician, in any Western democracy, who is anywhere near power, who takes your view. Has it never occurred to you that they might have a point, and that you are being naive?
    Ron Wyden, Rand Paul, Mark Udall, Richard Blumenthal are just four US Senators who agree with me.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    Socrates said:

    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    The contradictions of your position on this are pretty hilarious. One of the principal reasons he wasn't prosecuted here was because of concerns about the role electronic surveillance played in evidence gathering:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4690550.stm

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1948507.ece

    You seem delighted that the Americans don't worry about those pesky civil liberties' concerns in this case.
    Once again Richard Nabavi grossly misrepresents someone's position to score a cheap point.
    Yes, it was a very cheap point indeed - it cost me very little research to substantiate it
    Except of course you couldn't substantiate it because it was a false characterization of Socrates' position. Unless of course under your forensic examination of his secret emails you have discovered that he has been lying to us consistently for the last half a decade and is actually opposed to any form of government bugging what so ever as you claimed.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Looking up Hammond's views, I find he was in favour of the snoopers' charter on all our phone records. I think the Tories would do well to look for someone in the next generation.

    You won't find any mainstream politician, in any Western democracy, who is anywhere near power, who takes your view. Has it never occurred to you that they might have a point, and that you are being naive?
    Ron Wyden, Rand Paul, Mark Udall, Richard Blumenthal are just four US Senators who agree with me.
    Yes, quite.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Elected representative employs immigrant workers from eastern Europe and houses them in bunkhouses:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-mep-nathan-gill-employed-dozens-of-immigrants-and-kept-them-in-bunkhouses-9485018.html

    Mr Jones will be livid.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,422
    O/t - Well I have just been subjected to the latest technological tyranny of doing a webcam interview where you record responses to a series of questions. I have never gone to pieces like it in an interview situation. Nor has an interview resulted in me being physically sick. I hope such barbarous innovations don't catch on because they are a form of unspeakable torture. Needless to say I don't think I'll be getting very far with this job. For the first time ever I feel myself morphing into my technophobic mother. Aargh.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Looking up Hammond's views, I find he was in favour of the snoopers' charter on all our phone records. I think the Tories would do well to look for someone in the next generation.

    You won't find any mainstream politician, in any Western democracy, who is anywhere near power, who takes your view. Has it never occurred to you that they might have a point, and that you are being naive?
    Ron Wyden, Rand Paul, Mark Udall, Richard Blumenthal are just four US Senators who agree with me.
    David Davis, Dominic Raab, Nick de Bois, Edward Leigh, Simon Reevell and Andrew Tyrie amongst 40 Tory MPs who also agree with you.
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited June 2014

    You can't have it both ways: if you want the Hamzas of this world to be prosecuted, and terrorist attacks to be averted, someone has to figure out where to start looking. The only way to do that is to follow millions and millions of links, almost all of them completely innocent.

    I don't accept this argument at all, but even if it were true, it wouldn't affect my position. It is better have the odd "terrorist" attack and preserve the liberty of the subject, than to have no "terrorist" attacks by reducing the people to servitude. Of course, the public and the politicians they elect are reactionary and will sacrifice liberty in pursuit of that tiresome mantra "saving lives".
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820


    Except of course you couldn't substantiate it because it was a false characterization of Socrates' position. Unless of course under your forensic examination of his secret emails you have discovered that he has been lying to us consistently for the last half a decade and is actually opposed to any form of government bugging what so ever as you claimed.

    OK, let's turn this round. We are agreed, I think, that you and Socrates approve of bugging people who might possibly be associated with terrorism.

    Now tell me how the intelligence services are supposed to find these people in order to know they should be bugged.

    Here are four names of people, who, with the benefit of hindsight, we now know should have been monitored more actively - it they had been, 52 lives could have been saved:

    Mohammad Sidique Khan
    Shehzad Tanweer
    Germaine Lindsay
    Hasib Hussain

    If I understand you correctly. you want people like that bugged (even though they had committed no obvious crime) - how the hell do you want the intelligence services to know they should be bugged?
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    TGOHF said:

    Socrates said:

    fitalass said:

    UKIP poster has a problem with a tough talking female Conservative politician who has proved to be an excellent Home Secretary, what a surprise.

    MikeK said:

    Theresa May Has:
    Called her party NASTY while wearing horrible NASTY skippers. (slippers would me a misnomer)
    Made her party NASTY by calling it NASTY.
    By helping to make her party NASTY, she has made it NASTIER.

    Yep Theresa May has helped her NASTY party a lot; and she is seen by many to be more than a trifle NASTY herself.

    . The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. That her supporters on here are having to focus that she gave a good speech once, after four years in office, shows how meagre her achievements have been.
    She punted Hamza out...
    Eventually. And was unable to convict him here, despite the Americans finding it easy enough.

    Tories are allowing them to be seduced too easily because they want another Thatcher. But May is no Thatcher. You need to look beyond the small individual causes (the Police Fed, Hamza) and look at the big picture. On most of the big issues (European integration, civil liberties, individual privacy, etc) she's on the wrong side of the argument, and even when she's on the right side (immigration) she's been incapable of seeing it through. She doesn't have either the principles or the competence needed.
    Abu Hamza was convicted wasn't he?
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    antifrank said:

    Elected representative employs immigrant workers from eastern Europe and houses them in bunkhouses:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-mep-nathan-gill-employed-dozens-of-immigrants-and-kept-them-in-bunkhouses-9485018.html

    Mr Jones will be livid.

    I compliment the way Gill has given fairly straightforward answers to the journalist writing the article but sometimes such bluntness can be self-incriminating:

    “If we hadn’t employed people from overseas, we’d have been called racist. The fact that we did employ immigrants is leading to charges of hypocrisy. But Ukip has never said it wants to stop all immigration – it wants to limit the numbers.”

    Oh dear. I always said it would end in tears.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I don't accept this argument at all, but even if it were true, it wouldn't affect my position. It is better have the odd "terrorist" attack and preserve the liberty of the subject, than to have no "terrorist" attacks by reducing the people to servitude. Of course, the public and the politicians they elect are reactionary and will sacrifice liberty in pursuit of that tiresome mantra "saving lives".

    Yes, your position is honest, if eccentric.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, the usual way in which leaders of the Conservative party are chosen is to enact the plot of Hamlet, where all central characters and most minor characters are disposed of bloodily, until inconsequentially one accidental bystander picks up the crown at the end.

    Don't look for the candidate with the most friends, look for the candidate with the fewest enemies.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited June 2014
    Here's a by-election bet to make everyone happy:

    twitter.com/KevinBrennanMP/status/474180367759708160/photo/1
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,507
    antifrank said:

    On topic, the usual way in which leaders of the Conservative party are chosen is to enact the plot of Hamlet, where all central characters and most minor characters are disposed of bloodily, until inconsequentially one accidental bystander picks up the crown at the end.

    Don't look for the candidate with the most friends, look for the candidate with the fewest enemies.

    More like MacBeth.

This discussion has been closed.