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kle4

No great surprises there, then. I note the question does specfiy a Romanian family, not merely a group of Romanian men.

surbiton

Still, Farage blew the dog whistle !

But was it better or worse than Maggie's " we are being swamped" comment ?

GeoffM

The question is about a family. Why? It was "men" in the original quote.
Different question; different answer.

isam

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

MrJones

FPT

foxinsoxuk said:

Integration is certainly a good thing, but the Poles who settled around Newark in the late forties have integrated very well. One fellow with Polish heritage is sufficiently integrated to be LOTO.

How would UKIP assess how integrated a migrant community is?

The principle by which immigration should be judged (imo) is that the rate of integration is higher than the rate of immigration.

Your comments about post-war Polish immigration seem to implicitly accept the principle.

isam

surbiton said:

Still, Farage blew the dog whistle !

But was it better or worse than Maggie's " we are being swamped" comment ?

Not really, he gave a straightforward answer to a question most politicians would duck for PR purposes

surbiton

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

In other words, he chose his words carefully. A precise frequency was blown from the dog whistle !

isam

surbiton said:

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

In other words, he chose his words carefully. A precise frequency was blown from the dog whistle !

He told the truth, and the public agreed, even Lib Dems!

GeoffM

surbiton said:

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

In other words, he chose his words carefully. A precise frequency was blown from the dog whistle !

A frequency so precise, it seems, that only a few people like you heard it.
That says more about you than anything else.

kle4

Has the law changed ? If I remember correctly, Rev Paisley, Mr Hume were members of both.
----
The Electoral Commission has ruled that they consider it inappropriate to be a member of both - it's obviously impossible to do both at once with any diligence. Not sure that has legal force, but I can't imagine Helmer wants to - he nearly stood down a few years ago, and it was only a squabble with the Tory party about the next name on the list (which I never understood, as I thought it was automatic) that pushed him into UKIP.
----

I don't see that it is obviously impossible to do both at once with any diligence. I imagine it would be very hard to do both with proper diligence, but if it has been done before, and the Commission are now saying it is not proper, then they are saying they consider those who did it before to be crap at their jobs and by extension that the people who elected someone to either position when they already held one of the others, to be fools. It's also very hard to be a Minister and do constituency work diligently on top of ministerial duties I imagine, is it in appropriate to be a Minister while having constituents to serve?

People can make the choice for themselves if they want to take the risk that the person would not do both with appropriate diligence, and punish them accordingly if they don't and yet refuse to give one up. Trickier with MEPs of course, since it's done on a party list I suppose.

It does seem correct to me that one should be full time one or the other to do the job properly, but if the rules do not prohibit it, it's up to the candidates regardless of whether other people think it is appropriate. There are local councillors who are 18 and 80+, some would argue they are less likely to be able to do the job with proper diligence, but I'm sure we all know plenty who can manage it with ease. So it might well be for MP and MEP sharing. Just because it would be very hard to do both doesn't mean it is impossible.

Besides, plenty of people seem happy to vote in crappy representatives.

MikeK

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

Actually the treads question is not the one that Farage presented. What he said was something like, "would you like to live next to a house full of Roumanian men?". He emphasised that he was talking about Roumanian gangs that now infest the UK; not Roumanian families. Of course the MSM tried to have a field day with their version. Epic Fail.

isam

@Surbiton

FPT
More like a 39% move. From 6.5 to 4.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.5 (11/2) is 15.3%, and 4 (3/1) is 25%, so its a 10% move. Well 9.7%

kle4

GeoffM said:

The question is about a family. Why? It was "men" in the original quote.

I imagine because the commentariat treated Farage's answer as though the question had been a comparison between a Romanian family or a German family, rather than a group of Romanian men and German...children I think it was?

He has been vindicated once again it seems, at least in the sense that the public also make a distinction, although didn't he apologise? Or did he? I'm still not clear on that. If he did, it's harder to take it back to say, 'See, I was right all along'. It's like the whole Duffy business, where plenty did and still do say that Brown was right to call the woman a bigot, only it's undermined because Brown apologised saying that he was wrong to think that.

isam

MikeK said:

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

Actually the treads question is not the one that Farage presented. What he said was something like, "would you like to live next to a house full of Roumanian men?". He emphasised that he was talking about Roumanian gangs that now infest the UK; not Roumanian families. Of course the MSM tried to have a field day with their version. Epic Fail.

Yes, a lot of deliberate misunderstanding going on, to fit peoples bias

We know from the polling that a majority of people prefer Germans to Romanians as neighbours, and I would bet a lot of money at short odds that most people would prefer to live next door to a family than a group of men, regardless of nationality.

What Farage said was bang in line with public opinion. Most politicians wouldnt dare say it, thats why a lot of people feel the old 3 parties dont represent them anymore

MikeK

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

AveryLP

MikeK said:

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

Actually the treads question is not the one that Farage presented. What he said was something like, "would you like to live next to a house full of Roumanian men?". He emphasised that he was talking about Roumanian gangs that now infest the UK; not Roumanian families. Of course the MSM tried to have a field day with their version. Epic Fail.

So the comment was both racist and sexist?

Might as well kill two birds with one stone.

Good on College for grasping the opportunity!

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Isn't that an unfair question to pose? I thought the options available were a group of Romanian men and (from the DJ) some German children.

FPT: Mr. Jones, yeah, I've heard that. The counter-argument is that a new writer without a large readership can get more readers with a lower price (I know I consider price quite carefully, and did even when my wallet was a little less anorexic).

Mr. Llama keeps suggesting I hike prices, but I have had the cost of the comedy ($2.99, about £1.80 or so now) raised as a potentially off-putting issue.

MikeK

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

isam said:

No one will be shocked by that.. UKIP are anti massimmigration, LD's are pro mass immigration

The inteeresting finding, which should really be in the thread header, is that people of all political persuasions preferred to live next door to Germans than Romanians.

Farage said their was a difference, and got streams of abuse... but this survey proved him to be on the right side of public opinion

Actually the treads question is not the one that Farage presented. What he said was something like, "would you like to live next to a house full of Roumanian men?". He emphasised that he was talking about Roumanian gangs that now infest the UK; not Roumanian families. Of course the MSM tried to have a field day with their version. Epic Fail.

So the comment was both racist and sexist?

Might as well kill two birds with one stone.

Good on College for grasping the opportunity!

I take it you would like Roumanian gangs made up of women only? You old sly dog!!!!!

Sunil_Prasannan

FPT (with apologies!)

Sunil on Sunday headline today:

STICK IT UP YOUR JUNCKER!

AveryLP

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

They were knocked over by Rog's arrival, Me Old Weathercock..

Here is pictorial evidence of the pub before the carnage:

http://bit.ly/1u4Q3zh

Neil

Has anyone polled Romanian families for their attitudes towards Tory / Lib Dem / Labour / UKIP families moving in next door?

GeoffM

isam said:

We know from the polling that a majority of people prefer Germans to Romanians as neighbours, and I would bet a lot of money at short odds that most people would prefer to live next door to a family than a group of men, regardless of nationality.

Indeed. I wouldn't take you on that bet as I would expect to lose. Everyone has a sliding scale of preferred neighbours in their heads.

Give me a long YouGov-generated multiple choice list of Ideal Next Door Neighbours and I'll be scanning down the list for the "Swedish teenage blonde nymphomanic nudists with an allergy to net-curtains" option straight away.

If I could be bothered I'd skim back for the German People Trafficking Gang and the Nice Romanian Family Who Go To Church options to tick my less important preferences afterwards.

MrJones

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

Isn't that an unfair question to pose? I thought the options available were a group of Romanian men and (from the DJ) some German children.

FPT: Mr. Jones, yeah, I've heard that. The counter-argument is that a new writer without a large readership can get more readers with a lower price (I know I consider price quite carefully, and did even when my wallet was a little less anorexic).

Mr. Llama keeps suggesting I hike prices, but I have had the cost of the comedy ($2.99, about £1.80 or so now) raised as a potentially off-putting issue.

yeah, getting it just right will be hard

NickPalmer

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Pulpstar

UKIP's momentum will take on new leaps and bounds if this happens ! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645052/President-Blairs-plan-save-EU-He-tells-Germanys-Merkel-defend-Europe-far-right-fuelling-speculation-bid-Presidency.html

isam

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

So its racist for Lib Dems to prefer Germans to Romanians? Really there should be no difference

AveryLP

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Absolutely true, Nick.

In 1990 I employed a Romanian aslyum seeker. He had fled Bucharest three years before without his wife and child. He spoke no English on arrival in the UK, but was fluent in Romanian, German, Spanish and Italian. By the time I interviewed him, he was fluent in English too. And a year after being given responsibility for Romania and Hungary, he had learnt Hungarian too (not an easy task even for a natural linguist!).

Eventually he was granted residence and his family joined him. They lived deep in a Lib Dem enclave in South West London and were a charming couple.

Yes, he was a little eccentric, but so were we all, not least myself!

It was South West London not his nationality which would have prevented me being his neighbour.

Indeed, had he been in the constituency you contested at the time, I would have had ten of him or his families living next door.

GeoffM

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

You have labelled just about everyone racist because they have an opinion about something or someone - including me.

I think overplaying the racist card is a fantastically counter-productive development by the Left. It takes all of the meaning and venom out of the word Racist and makes it anodyne and trivial.

So Nick Palmer says I'm racist? A few years ago I would have taken serious offence at that. Now it's become such a wishy-washy term I feel that I've been called worse at traffic lights.

Edit for grammar and spelling idiocy

Socrates

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

So left-wingers talking about Americans being fat and backwards is also racist, then? I agree judging people based on their nationality is prejudicial, but it certainly isn't racist. And, for the record, Farage never judged anyone on their nationality. He just said that if a group of men from Romania moved in next door, you would have reason to have concerns. That's a very big difference to coming to an actual judgment on them, which is what the usual stirrers of racial politics continue to allege.

MarkHopkins

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

I think there is a difference between racism and playing on stereotypes. For example, would you consider the old "An Englishman, an Irishman, and a Scotsman..." style jokes to be racist?

Although I agree that the generalisations are unfair on the real people.

foxinsoxuk

Personally, I would prefer the Romanians. All that goose stepping and "achtung rollcall!" Shouting while enjoying Breakfast is annoying. Thats before they start knocking over your fenceposts with thir panzers and challenges to penalty shoot outs. Nope, its the Romanians for me!

isam said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

So its racist for Lib Dems to prefer Germans to Romanians? Really there should be no difference

Omnium

People may simply be responding that they'd prefer German neighbours in that Germans tend to be better off.

Sunil_Prasannan

foxinsoxuk said:

Personally, I would prefer the Romanians. All that goose stepping and "achtung rollcall!" Shouting while enjoying Breakfast is annoying. Thats before they start knocking over your fenceposts with thir panzers and challenges to penalty shoot outs. Nope, its the Romanians for me!

The Romanians played their part in the Holocaust and in Operation Barbarossa, alright, Dr Fox!!

RodCrosby

Tories continuing to edge out.

1.38

AveryLP

GeoffM said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

You have labelled just about everyone racist because they have an opinion about something or someone - including me.

I think overplaying the racist card is a fantastically counter-productive development by the Left. It takes all of the meaning and venom out of the word Racist and makes it anodyne and trivial.

So Nick Palmer says I'm racist? A few years ago I would have taken serious offence at that. Now it's become such a wishy-washy term I feel that I've been called worse at traffic lights.

Edit for grammar and spelling idiocy

I hope you don't pick your nose at traffic lights, Mr. M.

That would be even worse than being Spanish!

dyedwoolie

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

How bizarre.

Socrates

Nice to see that AveryLP believes that "discrimination is entirely logical" if it gives preferences to a couple dozen white nations over darker skinned places. Given that Nick Palmer has said discrimination based on nationality is 'racism', he'll condemn such justification of national discrimination.

Someone spouting such views justifying discrimination has no credibility to accuse others of racism.

isam

Omnium said:

People may simply be responding that they'd prefer German neighbours in that Germans tend to be better off.

Well that is probably 1.01 to be the reason, and its the reason Farage gave

Pulpstar

RodCrosby said:

Tories continuing to edge out.

1.38

Con was 1.2 at one point.

Conservative 1.2 £10.00
£2.00

peter_from_putney

AveryLP said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Absolutely true, Nick.

In 1990 I employed a Romanian aslyum seeker. He had fled Bucharest three years before without his wife and child. He spoke no English on arrival in the UK, but was fluent in Romanian, German, Spanish and Italian. By the time I interviewed him, he was fluent in English too. And a year after being given responsibility for Romania and Hungary, he had learnt Hungarian too (not an easy task even for a natural linguist!).

Eventually he was granted residence and his family joined him. They lived deep in a Lib Dem enclave in South West London and were a charming couple.

Yes, he was a little eccentric, but so were we all, not least myself!

It was South West London not his nationality which would have prevented me being his neighbour.

There's nowt wrong with Richmond!

MikeK

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

They were knocked over by Rog's arrival, Me Old Weathercock..

Here is pictorial evidence of the pub before the carnage:

http://bit.ly/1u4Q3zh

Don't be shy @AveryLP, admit thats a photo of your local pup. Bet you cant knock down all those skittles in a strike.

Sean_F

Race really isn't the issue as voters generally prefer Chinese to Romanian neighbours. Although the question wasn't asked, they'd probably prefer Indian neighbours, too. People's concern is whether a member of a particular national group is more likely to be a bad neighbour than a member of another national group.

Socrates

isam said:

Omnium said:

People may simply be responding that they'd prefer German neighbours in that Germans tend to be better off.

Well that is probably 1.01 to be the reason, and its the reason Farage gave

Indeed. The prejudice is in the question itself, because it forces you to make a judgment based on nationality alone. Given that you can't respond "it depends", you assume the average family in that group. Which means a much better off family in the German case.

Charles

GeoffM said:

The question is about a family. Why? It was "men" in the original quote.
Different question; different answer.

But possibly more revealing on the fundamental question, by excluding the potentially legitimate concern about a group of young men (or any nationality) living next door

AndyJS

How many LDs would genuinely be happy with Romanians moving next door, as opposed to the idea in theory? Most LD voters live in areas where it would never happen because the housing is too expensive.

Life_ina_market_town

Unless one assumes that nations and races are one and the same thing (a view which is usually associated with Fascistical tendencies), it is absurd to say that making a judgment about a nationality implies making a judgment about a race. That is not to say discrimination on the grounds of nationality is necessarily justified. In many circumstances, it is not and abhorrent. But on @NickPalmer's logic, our immigration policy is inherently racist because it discriminates on the grounds of nationality. Similarly, a policy which said that only British nationals could join the armed forces of the Crown would be racist in his view.

AveryLP

MikeK said:

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

They were knocked over by Rog's arrival, Me Old Weathercock..

Here is pictorial evidence of the pub before the carnage:

http://bit.ly/1u4Q3zh

Don't be shy @AveryLP, admit thats a photo of your local pup. Bet you cant knock down all those skittles in a strike.

No, it is genuinely The Crown in Bathley.

You can tell by the PVC frames on the garden facing windows.

Richard Tyndall will be along soon to confirm. It is his half drunk pint in the foreground.

Sean_F

Socrates said:

isam said:

Omnium said:

People may simply be responding that they'd prefer German neighbours in that Germans tend to be better off.

Well that is probably 1.01 to be the reason, and its the reason Farage gave

Indeed. The prejudice is in the question itself, because it forces you to make a judgment based on nationality alone. Given that you can't respond "it depends", you assume the average family in that group. Which means a much better off family in the German case.

"it depends" is the logical answer to each of the questions, but it's not available. I wouldn't want a neighbour who identified with Islamist political movements in Pakistan or Nigeria, but a Christian or moderate Muslim professional would likely be fine.

GeoffM

AveryLP said:

GeoffM said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

You have labelled just about everyone racist because they have an opinion about something or someone - including me.

I think overplaying the racist card is a fantastically counter-productive development by the Left. It takes all of the meaning and venom out of the word Racist and makes it anodyne and trivial.

So Nick Palmer says I'm racist? A few years ago I would have taken serious offence at that. Now it's become such a wishy-washy term I feel that I've been called worse at traffic lights.

Edit for grammar and spelling idiocy

I hope you don't pick your nose at traffic lights, Mr. M.

That would be even worse than being Spanish!

As a man I find multi-tasking difficult. So when driving I leave my nose unpicked in case I need to use the mobile.

And there is nothing worse than being Spanish. But if I was - I'd be too lazy, drunk and unemployed to be worried about stereotyping.

AveryLP

peter_from_putney said:

AveryLP said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Absolutely true, Nick.

In 1990 I employed a Romanian aslyum seeker. He had fled Bucharest three years before without his wife and child. He spoke no English on arrival in the UK, but was fluent in Romanian, German, Spanish and Italian. By the time I interviewed him, he was fluent in English too. And a year after being given responsibility for Romania and Hungary, he had learnt Hungarian too (not an easy task even for a natural linguist!).

Eventually he was granted residence and his family joined him. They lived deep in a Lib Dem enclave in South West London and were a charming couple.

Yes, he was a little eccentric, but so were we all, not least myself!

It was South West London not his nationality which would have prevented me being his neighbour.

There's nowt wrong with Richmond!

Nothing now it is under the control of Lady Annabel's progeny, PfP!

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

They were knocked over by Rog's arrival, Me Old Weathercock..

Here is pictorial evidence of the pub before the carnage:

http://bit.ly/1u4Q3zh

Don't be shy @AveryLP, admit thats a photo of your local pup. Bet you cant knock down all those skittles in a strike.

No, it is genuinely The Crown in Bathley.

You can tell by the PVC frames on the garden facing windows.

Richard Tyndall will be along soon to confirm. It is his half drunk pint in the foreground.

Certainly not my pint - but you are absolutely right that is the Crown at Bathley. They do a roaring trade from the Long Alley Skittles (God knows why!)

NickPalmer

No offence intended by my earlier comments - let me substitute "unhelpful" and yes, it applies to generalisations about Americans too. People vary and should be treated as individuals - an important part of conservative tradition that we can all learn from IMO. I agree with Socrates that the question itself is unhelpful, in the same way as "Do you think women or men are more logical?" without a "no difference" or "it depends" option. I'm not sure most of us actually disagree on this, and it's too hot to want to stir up an argument.

By the way, I do think it would be fun to see the reactions if Cameron were to propose Tony Blair rather than Juncker.

MikeK

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

AveryLP said:

MikeK said:

Is Roger having a liquid lunch?

Roger Helmer ‏@RogerHelmerMEP 7m
Just walked into The Crown in Bathley. Roar of support from folk having their lunch. Fantastic. R.

They were knocked over by Rog's arrival, Me Old Weathercock..

Here is pictorial evidence of the pub before the carnage:

http://bit.ly/1u4Q3zh

Don't be shy @AveryLP, admit thats a photo of your local pup. Bet you cant knock down all those skittles in a strike.

No, it is genuinely The Crown in Bathley.

You can tell by the PVC frames on the garden facing windows.

Richard Tyndall will be along soon to confirm. It is his half drunk pint in the foreground.

Well I have to admit you are right. Looked it up on Google. Grubby looking place, aint it!

foxinsoxuk

Only under duress, and largely to recover the territories that they lost fighting on our side in the Great war.

Bloody German oompah band next door! Where is my Lancaster when I need it!

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Personally, I would prefer the Romanians. All that goose stepping and "achtung rollcall!" Shouting while enjoying Breakfast is annoying. Thats before they start knocking over your fenceposts with thir panzers and challenges to penalty shoot outs. Nope, its the Romanians for me!

The Romanians played their part in the Holocaust and in Operation Barbarossa, alright, Dr Fox!!

David_Evershed

AndyJS said:

How many LDs would genuinely be happy with Romanians moving next door, as opposed to the idea in theory? Most LD voters live in areas where it would never happen because the housing is too expensive.

Ah! Stereotyping Lib Dems. Bring in the discrimination police.

GeoffM

NickPalmer said:

No offence intended by my earlier comments - let me substitute "unhelpful" and yes, it applies to generalisations about Americans too.

No offence taken here, certainly. And thanks for the entertainment provided as you row back on your genuinely expressed views of who is "racist" with such a casual shrug.

You've actually done me a favour. I'm racist in your eyes and I've just realised that the accusation really doesn't bother me at all. In Lefty-world I should probably be mortified.

AndyJS

Tried to put £10 on UKIP with Betfair but only £2 was accepted. What's going on?

Morris_Dancer

Question on the modern world:
is there such a thing as a dictaphone app for smartphones? Just wondering if a conversation could be recorded fairly easily on a smartphone. [NB just for a story, I'm not actually looking to use such a thing].

Morris_Dancer

Mr. JS, insufficient funds in your account or insufficient liquidity available at those odds would seem likeliest.

isam

AndyJS said:

Tried to put £10 on UKIP with Betfair but only £2 was accepted. What's going on?

Someone must have nabbed the ither £8

Ladbrokes are best price now at 3/1, an Betfair arb

GeoffM

Morris_Dancer said:

Question on the modern world:
is there such a thing as a dictaphone app for smartphones? Just wondering if a conversation could be recorded fairly easily on a smartphone. [NB just for a story, I'm not actually looking to use such a thing].

Yes, I use this facility on my Android/GalaxyNoteIII regularly in meetings.
It also records calls too if I need that.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. M, cheers. It's a source of some amusement to me that I have more difficulty with such things with the few stories I write set in the modern world than in ones with an approximately 14th century level of technology.

RodCrosby

AndyJS said:

Tried to put £10 on UKIP with Betfair but only £2 was accepted. What's going on?

Perhaps you have exceeded your total bets limit? Happened to me last week.

Rang them to increase it to five figures...

AndyJS

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

DavidL

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious would it not depend on the family? Silly question, silly answers.

GeoffM

foxinsoxuk said:

Only under duress, and largely to recover the territories that they lost fighting on our side in the Great war.

Under duress? From the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania which was accepted unreservedly in 2004 by the Romanian government:

Of all the allies of Nazi Germany, Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of more Jews than any country other than Germany itself. The murders committed in Iasi, Odessa, Bogdanovka, Domanovka, and Peciora, for example, were among the most hideous murders committed against Jews anywhere during the Holocaust. Romania committed genocide against the Jews. The survival of Jews in some parts of the country does not alter this reality.

kle4

NickPalmer said:

By the way, I do think it would be fun to see the reactions if Cameron were to propose Tony Blair rather than Juncker.

As much as I would dislike that, as quite frankly I preferred Brown with all his flaws to smarmtastic Mr Blair, it would admittedly result in great hilarity to see that proposition.

DavidL

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

You're right, he is very far from average. He has built an extremely successful career and attracted an extremely successful wife. Coming from a comfortable background he has made himself genuinely rich. I wonder if he can bring that expertise to bear on government.

Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to try and get by on a backbencher's salary. Hopefully it will not just be a backbencher's salary for too long.

Blueberry

The Lib Dems are consulting their ideology to answer the question. The Kippers are using their common sense.

I expect you'd get similar answers from Lib Dems if you asked them if they'd be happy using a Nigerian financial adviser, or having a Catholic priest babysit their children, or having Tower Hamlets Bangladeshis in charge of ballot counting.

It's this blind faith in ideology that is leading the Lib Dems to extinction. They need to open their eyes and ears or it will be too late.

Charles

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

How much debt does he have?

And should we criticise someone for having the fortune/foresight to marry a talented and hard-working woman?

Smarmeron

@DavidL

"Hopefully it will not just be a backbencher's salary for too long"

Yes, The poor soul will have to borrow the price of a pint for a night out with the lads. On the other hand, he could always go to a foodbank to save a few bob?

God bless his little cotton socks.

isam

Charles said:

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

How much debt does he have?

And should we criticise someone for having the fortune/foresight to marry a talented and hard-working woman?

Where is the criticism of him for being successful or marrying a successful woman?

Smarmeron

@Charles
Given the number of women who marry for money, there should be no discrimination the other way round.

kle4

Blueberry said:

.

It's this blind faith in ideology that is leading the Lib Dems to extinction.

I keep reading in certain circles that the LDs have no ideology and thus have no point!

DavidL said:

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to try and get by on a backbencher's salary.

I think that should be 'Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to get by on a backbencher's salary'. Anyone can get by on that salary, they don't need to try to do so.

Has the Tory campaign been selling Jenrick as an ordinary bloke? That's the only circumstance I can see it mattering.

RodCrosby

UKIP 3.85 <<
Lab 70 >>

DavidL

kle4 said:

Blueberry said:

.

It's this blind faith in ideology that is leading the Lib Dems to extinction.

I keep reading in certain circles that the LDs have no ideology and thus have no point!

DavidL said:

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to try and get by on a backbencher's salary.

I think that should be 'Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to get by on a backbencher's salary'. Anyone can get by on that salary, they don't need to try to do so.

Has the Tory campaign been selling Jenrick as an ordinary bloke? That's the only circumstance I can see it mattering.

Well I have private school fees (not paid by a grandparent) of £20K a year from net income so I couldn't. The point is not the absolute level of the salary but the cut in income he is willing to take for the job.

Smarmeron

@DavidL
Does being elected to Parliament preclude outside work? If not, you are perhaps pushing the "relative poverty" angle a bit past the tipping point.

Blueberry

kle4 said:

Blueberry said:

.

It's this blind faith in ideology that is leading the Lib Dems to extinction.

I keep reading in certain circles that the LDs have no ideology and thus have no point!

Of the four main parties, the Lib Dems have bought most into the philosophies of political correctness, cultural relativism and multiculturalism. Fair enough, if that makes them happy. But personally I think people are happiest when they just trust their instincts and don't intellectualise how they should feel about things.

MikeK

AndyJS said:

Tried to put £10 on UKIP with Betfair but only £2 was accepted. What's going on?

I think, can't promise, that if you go to your local Paddy Power, you may be able to sneak a £30 bet on UKIP for Newark. I did and got on @ 5/2.

MarkSenior

I would object to Farage's German wife living next door but only if Farage was living with her .

SandyRentool

We have got some new neighbours. I have no idea if they are Romanian, German, or some other nationality.

Just as long as they aren't Mackems - too many of them in the street already!

kle4

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Blueberry said:

.

It's this blind faith in ideology that is leading the Lib Dems to extinction.

I keep reading in certain circles that the LDs have no ideology and thus have no point!

DavidL said:

AndyJS said:

The Tory candidate is just your average bloke: at the age of 32, he owns two £2 million homes in London and a £1 million country mansion:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644905/Newark-election-Will-brazen-dandy-really-cause-UKIP-earthquake-Meet-Roger-Helmer-Tory-defector-views-immigration-gays-make-Nigel-Farage-look-progressive.html

Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to try and get by on a backbencher's salary.

I think that should be 'Newark are fortunate that someone with such talent is willing to get by on a backbencher's salary'. Anyone can get by on that salary, they don't need to try to do so.

Has the Tory campaign been selling Jenrick as an ordinary bloke? That's the only circumstance I can see it mattering.

Well I have private school fees (not paid by a grandparent) of £20K a year from net income so I couldn't. The point is not the absolute level of the salary but the cut in income he is willing to take for the job.

People are to be commended for willing to enter public service rather than merely seek to maximise their own income in the private sphere, but I maintain anyone can 'get by' on a backbencher's salary, which is how it was phrased. I've no doubt there are backbench MPs who would like to be able to afford 20k private school fees per year but cannot on their current salary and couldn't before they entered parliament either. Those who can afford it are free to choose not to enter parliament in order to priortise such things instead, but it would not be a getting by situation just because the salary does not cover such an expense, it is entirely comfortable. Even if it did pay enough to cover it, next thing you know someone wants to be seen as a hero for entering parliament when it won't cover their 30k private school fees per year, or 50k.

foxinsoxuk

There is a voice record function on my android phone.

Morris_Dancer said:

Question on the modern world:
is there such a thing as a dictaphone app for smartphones? Just wondering if a conversation could be recorded fairly easily on a smartphone. [NB just for a story, I'm not actually looking to use such a thing].

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Foxinsox, for some reason I have a vision of you mugging Data...

Thanks.

Respite

I wonder whether the collapse in Lib Dem support, including the shift of the anti-politics vote to UKIP, will free the party to build a more distinct, radical position after 2015. Trying to be all things to all people as a third party is a road to nowhere; build a platform with a potential 20ish percent share the electorate.

Potential such positions: pro-EU, pro-immigration, supportive of drug decriminalisation (akin to Portugal), a shift towards taxation on wealth instead of income (keeping total levels consistent), hugely liberalise planning permission (including in non-flood plain greenbelt areas) to encourage house building, etc...

With the Conservatives obsessing over the EU and Labour deciding which market the state should intervene in next, the Lib Dems could be the only fiscally responsible and pro-business party - but with enough radical policies to not come across as just supporting the status quo.

Hertsmere_Pubgoer

Completely off topic question to the military historians on here.
I have heard Operation Bagration pronounced 3 different ways in WW2 documentaries
Soviet Storm: Bag-rat-eon
Battlefield: Bag-ray-schon
Road to Berlin: Bag-rat-een
Which (if any) of these is the correct way?

Tapestry

Speaking during a visit to the EMMAUS Trust, Newark, Natalie Bennett said: "We are the anti UKIP vote. We take votes from the Lib Dems, Labour, and the Tories, and if people are disillusioned with those three parties then we are the party to vote for.

"We were pleased with the recent election results, particularly in some of the local council elections. We are now in direct opposition in Solihull for example, and we had strong results in the East Midlands."

"It's hard to tell how we will do in this by-election, but we have a message for real change and positive change. We are the only party who believes the NHS should be kept public, the only party to oppose HS2, and one of our main issues is being against fracking, which a lot of people are concerned about."

UNISON worker Mr Kirwan, who says he is the only local candidate within the main five parties, said he would campaign to stop fracking in the Newark area, pointing instead to solar panels as a better way to provide renewable energy.

Mr Kirwan said: "Although Newark doesn't have new sites for fracking, we know there will be planning applications for fracking in the next few years.

"It's important that people understand the repercussions of fracking, it's a short-term energy solution, and the fact that the government are planning to buy people out in exchange for drilling under their house tells you it's a bad idea. The Newark Advertiser.

AS I SAY, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE GREENS AND THEIR PROGRESS BASED ON OPPOSING FRACKING. UKIP'S BIGGEST MISTAKE IS SUPPORTING FRACKING, AND COULD COST THEM THEIR NEWARK BREAKTHROUGH. FRACKING IS NOT ON THE MSM RADAR, BUT IS BECOMING AN ELECTION TURNING ISSUE. WILL SOMEONE NOTIFY FARAGE PLEASE.

Smarmeron

@foxinsoxuk

The way the NSA are going, smart phones probably have the technology already embedded.
(Just kidding, I don't believe in "the lizards" either....... though most Tories are fairly cold blooded)

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Pubgoer, bag-rat-eon sounds like a German pronunciation (might work for Russian too, but don't speak it).

Mr. Tapestry, interesting fracking comments.

Theuniondivvie

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Completely off topic question to the military historians on here.
I have heard Operation Bagration pronounced 3 different ways in WW2 documentaries
Soviet Storm: Bag-rat-eon
Battlefield: Bag-ray-schon
Road to Berlin: Bag-rat-een
Which (if any) of these is the correct way?

I always thought it was the first, not based on any direct knowledge I hasten to add.

Richard_Tyndall

Tapestry said:

Speaking during a visit to the EMMAUS Trust, Newark, Natalie Bennett said: "We are the anti UKIP vote. We take votes from the Lib Dems, Labour, and the Tories, and if people are disillusioned with those three parties then we are the party to vote for.

"We were pleased with the recent election results, particularly in some of the local council elections. We are now in direct opposition in Solihull for example, and we had strong results in the East Midlands."

"It's hard to tell how we will do in this by-election, but we have a message for real change and positive change. We are the only party who believes the NHS should be kept public, the only party to oppose HS2, and one of our main issues is being against fracking, which a lot of people are concerned about."

UNISON worker Mr Kirwan, who says he is the only local candidate within the main five parties, said he would campaign to stop fracking in the Newark area, pointing instead to solar panels as a better way to provide renewable energy.

Mr Kirwan said: "Although Newark doesn't have new sites for fracking, we know there will be planning applications for fracking in the next few years.

"It's important that people understand the repercussions of fracking, it's a short-term energy solution, and the fact that the government are planning to buy people out in exchange for drilling under their house tells you it's a bad idea. The Newark Advertiser.

AS I SAY, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE GREENS AND THEIR PROGRESS BASED ON OPPOSING FRACKING. UKIP'S BIGGEST MISTAKE IS SUPPORTING FRACKING, AND COULD COST THEM THEIR NEWARK BREAKTHROUGH. FRACKING IS NOT ON THE MSM RADAR, BUT IS BECOMING AN ELECTION TURNING ISSUE. WILL SOMEONE NOTIFY FARAGE PLEASE.

You are, as I said yesterday, talking utter garbage Tapestry. Fracking is not even an issue on the horizon in Newark, not only because Newark is not and never will be a target for fracking (the Geology is wrong), but also because people in the area are used to both conventional drilling (having been the centre of oil exploration for longer than anywhere else in Britain) and mining.

They are far more bothered by the threats of wind turbines. If you travel round the constituency you will see lots of signs opposing wind turbines but none opposing fracking.... except those brought along by the delusional Greens.

If you are going to have outlandish theories please try and make them a little more difficult to refute or it takes all the fun out of it.

Bennett is also lying. The Greens are not the only party to oppose HS2. UKIP opposes it as well and when it comes to the NHS I am pretty sure all the other parties would dispute the claim that the Greens are the only party which believes the NHS should be kept public. If that is the best Bennett can do then she deserved to be laughed out of town. .

FalseFlag

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals
by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Really? I have been delighted to have all my preconceptions confirmed upon contact. How do you think stereotypes are formed, a common observation by many different people. Of course genes determine behaviour then if you share those genes you will share characteristics.

MarkHopkins

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Completely off topic question to the military historians on here.
I have heard Operation Bagration pronounced 3 different ways in WW2 documentaries
Soviet Storm: Bag-rat-eon
Battlefield: Bag-ray-schon
Road to Berlin: Bag-rat-een
Which (if any) of these is the correct way?

Since the operation was named after a real person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

Then the phonetic pronunciation of his name is probably correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Bagration

Richard_Tyndall

MarkSenior said:

I would object to Farage's German wife living next door but only if Farage was living with her .

Don't worry Mark. I would be very upset if you lived next door to me as well. It would definitely lower the tone of the neighbourhood having such a supporter of such an extremist minority group causing trouble.

SimonStClare

Apropos of nothing - I’d rather live next door to a German, than have one in the house.

[edit] just in case Mrs SSC reads this - only joking..! ; )

Tapestry

My full fracking explanation on youtube is below.
Owen Paterson could well lose his seat in the next GE if he hasn't taken a leap upwards to dodge the anger of his constituents. The BBC won't mention fracking as an issue, until the fracking companies apply for permission to actually frack. They apply first to merely drill, and no discussion of fracking gets into the media as a result. It makes it easier for the frackers to get planning permission doing it in two steps, and the media plays along with the charade hiding the controversy that rages at local level.

The politics is therefore below the radar, and only appears in local newspapers.

Local people organise protest groups and campaign vigorously once they know their areas are threatened, as the Green candidate in Newark is clearly aware.

Politicalbetting and the like only pick up the signal once it's in the main media. This one is powerful and happening at grass roots.
level. http://youtu.be/WsGXA5J7ssw

Hertsmere_Pubgoer

MarkHopkins said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Completely off topic question to the military historians on here.
I have heard Operation Bagration pronounced 3 different ways in WW2 documentaries
Soviet Storm: Bag-rat-eon
Battlefield: Bag-ray-schon
Road to Berlin: Bag-rat-een
Which (if any) of these is the correct way?

Since the operation was named after a real person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

Then the phonetic pronunciation of his name is probably correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Bagration

Many thanks for that, it would seem that Soviet Storm is the closest.
EDIT - Thanks as well to MD

FalseFlag

AveryLP said:

NickPalmer said:

FWIW I think that judging individuals by their nationality is essentially racist in the usual sense of the term, even if they're white (to be less emotive, let's say it's unhelpful). As Sean Fear says on the last thread, attitudes tend to be formed on the basis of media coverage of the countries - Germans are portrayed as all serious and efficient, Nigerians as people who run banking scams. Such generalisations rarely survive contact with real people, which is possibly why the cruder forms of prejudice are more common in areas with few immigrants.

Absolutely true, Nick.

In 1990 I employed a Romanian aslyum seeker. He had fled Bucharest three years before without his wife and child. He spoke no English on arrival in the UK, but was fluent in Romanian, German, Spanish and Italian. By the time I interviewed him, he was fluent in English too. And a year after being given responsibility for Romania and Hungary, he had learnt Hungarian too (not an easy task even for a natural linguist!).

Eventually he was granted residence and his family joined him. They lived deep in a Lib Dem enclave in South West London and were a charming couple.

Yes, he was a little eccentric, but so were we all, not least myself!

It was South West London not his nationality which would have prevented me being his neighbour.

Indeed, had he been in the constituency you contested at the time, I would have had ten of him or his families living next door.

Yes of course Avery old chap all Romanians are multilingual geniuses, it's why Romania boasts such a high standard of living. Lousy anecdotes are always the best basis for social policy.

Let's just pretend those Roma in Marble Arch don't exist.

Richard_Tyndall

Tapestry said:

My full fracking explanation on youtube is below.
Owen Paterson could well lose his seat in the next GE if he hasn't taken a leap upwards to dodge the anger of his constituents. The BBC won't mention fracking as an issue, until the fracking companies apply for permission to actually frack. They apply first to merely drill, and no discussion of fracking gets into the media as a result. It makes it easier for the frackers to get planning permission doing it in two steps, and the media plays along with the charade hiding the controversy that rages at local level.

The politics is therefore below the radar, and only appears in local newspapers.

Local people organise protest groups and campaign vigorously once they know their areas are threatened, as the Green candidate in Newark is clearly aware.

Politicalbetting and the like only pick up the signal once it's in the main media. This one is powerful and happening at grass roots.
level. http://youtu.be/WsGXA5J7ssw

The Green candidate in Newark clearly knows nothing about the constituency they are seeking to represent. And nor do you.

Tapestry

The Green candidate presumably is talking to local constituents, and is on the ground, Richard. Just seen the Queen's Speech has been leaked. Fracking to be permitted without permission of the landowners. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/queens-speech-leaked-fracking-to-be.html