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  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    edited May 2013
    Charles said:



    FPTP was supported by a clear majority of the voters in a recent vote. You may remember it. That places me firmly in the mainstream

    No it wasn't. We weren't given a choice of electoral systems, just whether we wanted AV instead of FPTP.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    There are 24,372 schools in England.


    And the Mail seems to think that the children of white immigrants don't count as white.

    What a delightful newspaper
    I thought "white British" in the official data meant descended from white British people, rather than being descended from white people and having British nationality/identity.

    Our whole racial classification system needs to be sorted out. Frankly, I think the census should have separate questions on biological descent (sorted into European, Middle Eastern, African, South Asian, East Asian, etc), identity (sorted into British, with home nation subcategories, German, Indian, Jamaican etc), and country of birth.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Foxes vs Hedgehogs, Nitpickers vs The Bigger Picture...

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323372504578464704081223308.html
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638
    edited May 2013
    surbiton said:


    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.

    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?




    No, they won't just acquiesce. That is why you have a negotiation. But given that the disagreement has the potential to do huge harm to the EU if they play really hardball there will eventually be a deal. The point being that those negotiations will go on from within the EEA so that movement for work can continue until new arrangements are in place.

    Personally I am not hassled by the whole free movement thing. I have worked all round the world in countries both inside and out the EU/EEA and find that as long as you have a skill that people need and are willing to play by their rules then this whole issue of it being a barrier to my working to be an absolute myth.

    I am sure the Swiss don't consider the limitations that they have on free movement to be a huge imposition. Certainly not since they happily poll for a continuation of the current system
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    OK, one more time. What I am saying is this:

    1) UKIP, Socrates and Richard Tyndall all seem utterly confused as to what they are saying about the EEA. Yes, we could stay in it without any further negotiation, but if we do we wouldn't have work permits for EU citizens and we would have 'government by fax'. If that is what UKIP are advocating, they should say so, and admit that the stuff about work permits is a load of hooey. Personally I think this is the worst of all worlds, but others might disagree. Either way, it must be off the table as an option because otherwise UKIP's stuff about immigration would make no sense. So why mention it? It must be ruled out except as a purely temporary step.

    2) If it is not what they are advocating, then we need to negotiate some other deal, and the supposed advantages of the EEA are completely irrelevant: we wouldn't be in it. So we'd need to negotiate, from scratch and with no automatic reference to any existing treaties, a new deal with our EU friends. What that deal might be is of course unknowable -in that respect UKIP's position is similar to Cameron's - but what is quite certain is that we would certainly cede sovereignty as part of it, even if this is only in terms of (for example) accepting EU product standards; I can't imagine we'd have our own vehicle type testing, for example.

    Of course this is possible - as I've said, the balance is shifting towards leaving, because of the EU's attacks on the City. Others like Lord Lawson and Michael Gove seem to agree on this. But it's a trade-off, and not one which would leave us free to do anything we want.

    I am glad Richard you have pronounced a "stay in" position even though you are not saying it explicitly.

    The EEA position is either disingenuous or downright dishonest. Those who want to come out of the EU because of "free movement of labour", either does not know that that provision is also in the EEA or worse, they keep quiet about it.

    The idea that we can renegotiate better terms because we hold all the trumps is frankly laughable. Who holds more cards, a market of 62m or 450m ? Why should the EU concede anything meaningful ? They have countries trying join it, not leaving. Even an independent Scotland wants to stay in. Norway is not in but effectively has to accept EU directives. So what's the point of staying out except we can treat the EU just like USA or China.

    Then why should multi-nationals invest in the UK to establish a bridgehead into EU ? They are not coming here for a 62m market.
    We could maintain free trade if we leave. If Chile can have an FTA with the EU, then why would the UK, the EU's biggest export market, not want to do the same with us?
    Of course, we could. The last time I checked there weren't a large number of Chilean pensioners enjoying the Spanish health service.

    For example, when Britain leaves the UK, why should an impoverished Spain look after "foreigners" ?
    Actually non-EU/EEA access to public services in Spain is a huge issue. Some may even be Chileans.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638
    edited May 2013
    surbiton said:



    2005 manifesto ? There has been an election in between , you know. We are not keeping to some manifesto commitments from the 1945 election as well.

    Europe and the Euro is your graveyard ! Keep digging. We are supremely relaxed about Europe.

    The point being that Labour lied then and will lie again.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Theresa May faces Tory backlash over retaining European arrest warrant

    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right


    Theresa May, the home secretary, is set to feel the wrath of Tory backbenchers over a tentative agreement struck with the Liberal Democrats to retain the controversial European arrest warrant.

    The coalition has been in tense negotiations over the future of the measure, which requires a member state to transfer its citizens without trial where there is suspicion that a crime has been committed elsewhere in the EU.

    The Tory Eurosceptic right has been campaigning for the warrant's abolition and May has publicly criticised it while refusing to confirm that the UK will continue to enforce it next year.

    In 2014 the UK will exercise its right to opt out of around 130 EU security and justice measures, including the warrant, only to opt into a smaller number, the identity of which has been hotly contested within the government.

    The Conservative leadership wants to opt back into just 30 measures, while the Lib Dems are seeking at least double that number, a Whitehall source told the Observer. A sticking point has been the European arrest warrant (EAW). Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg is known to be a keen supporter.

    It is understood that after months of talks the coalition has now reached a compromise on how to keep the EAW measure in place, as requested by the Association of Chief Police Officers, among other organisations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/may/11/may-backlash-european-arrest-warrant
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    HYUFD said:
    Tim and the Labourites will be happy. Wonder how many only serve halal food.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 11m

    After Gove's intervention, Hammond tells @JPonpolitics that he would vote "out" in an EU referendum today. How many others will follow?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638
    edited May 2013
    surbiton said:



    Of course, we could. The last time I checked there weren't a large number of Chilean pensioners enjoying the Spanish health service.

    For example, when Britain leaves the UK, why should an impoverished Spain look after "foreigners" ?

    Well currently those pensioners are receiving a UK state pension which is then taxed by the Spanish so they are getting revenue from those pensioners. And of course those pensioers are then spending that pension in Spanish shops and on Spanish utilities. The Spanish are also able to claim back any costs incurred by their health service via the EHIC system.

    Why exactly would the Spanish want this cash cow to leave?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Mick_Pork said:

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 11m

    After Gove's intervention, Hammond tells @JPonpolitics that he would vote "out" in an EU referendum today. How many others will follow?

    The obvious next question is what will it take to change their minds? What powers do they want to renegotiate and what concessions will satisfy them?

  • samsam Posts: 727
    Peter_2 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Tim and the Labourites will be happy. Wonder how many only serve halal food.
    What evidence do you have for anything like that happening you out of touch racist

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDhLCg5c-gU
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,251
    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right

    Maybe so, although they seem pretty unpleasable to me. The Tory leadership could do everything they demand and they still find something to whinge about, like Old Etonians in government or it not being done soon enough. A lot of their defiance seems only partially to do with policy sometimes, and more just not liking the leadership.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mick_Pork said:

    Theresa May faces Tory backlash over retaining European arrest warrant

    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right


    Theresa May, the home secretary, is set to feel the wrath of Tory backbenchers over a tentative agreement struck with the Liberal Democrats to retain the controversial European arrest warrant.

    The coalition has been in tense negotiations over the future of the measure, which requires a member state to transfer its citizens without trial where there is suspicion that a crime has been committed elsewhere in the EU.

    The Tory Eurosceptic right has been campaigning for the warrant's abolition and May has publicly criticised it while refusing to confirm that the UK will continue to enforce it next year.

    In 2014 the UK will exercise its right to opt out of around 130 EU security and justice measures, including the warrant, only to opt into a smaller number, the identity of which has been hotly contested within the government.

    The Conservative leadership wants to opt back into just 30 measures, while the Lib Dems are seeking at least double that number, a Whitehall source told the Observer. A sticking point has been the European arrest warrant (EAW). Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg is known to be a keen supporter.

    It is understood that after months of talks the coalition has now reached a compromise on how to keep the EAW measure in place, as requested by the Association of Chief Police Officers, among other organisations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/may/11/may-backlash-european-arrest-warrant

    May be she could follow Clegg's strategy of agreeing to something and then dissing it in public to 'show a bit of leg' to the party activists?
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    sam - well excuuuuuuuuse me!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.

    That's pretty much where I'm coming to as well.

    Britain instinctively looks globally, Europe to its hinterlands in the East.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013

    The obvious next question is what will it take to change their minds? What powers do they want to renegotiate and what concessions will satisfy them?

    Yes. Gove and Hammond seem to think this is helping both them and Cammie's conditional Cast Iron EU referendum when the truth is that they have just pinned themselves to staying IN on whatever meager scraps get thrown Cammie's way by the EU were he to win and were the IN/OUT referendum more than posturing

    Of course the more cynical might think this is a holding position for another reason.
    Should Cammie lose they then easily move firmly to OUT for any future tory leadership battle.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Peter_2 said:

    sam - well excuuuuuuuuse me!

    Go eat some Yam!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    @Sam

    Great news report from the 1980s. Anything more up to date?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.

    I'm glad we have you on board. However, on the immigration point, does your logic extend to non-EU persons, and would you not be bothered if we had open immigration from the entire world?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Theresa May faces Tory backlash over retaining European arrest warrant

    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right


    Theresa May, the home secretary, is set to feel the wrath of Tory backbenchers over a tentative agreement struck with the Liberal Democrats to retain the controversial European arrest warrant.

    The coalition has been in tense negotiations over the future of the measure, which requires a member state to transfer its citizens without trial where there is suspicion that a crime has been committed elsewhere in the EU.

    The Tory Eurosceptic right has been campaigning for the warrant's abolition and May has publicly criticised it while refusing to confirm that the UK will continue to enforce it next year.

    In 2014 the UK will exercise its right to opt out of around 130 EU security and justice measures, including the warrant, only to opt into a smaller number, the identity of which has been hotly contested within the government.

    The Conservative leadership wants to opt back into just 30 measures, while the Lib Dems are seeking at least double that number, a Whitehall source told the Observer. A sticking point has been the European arrest warrant (EAW). Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg is known to be a keen supporter.

    It is understood that after months of talks the coalition has now reached a compromise on how to keep the EAW measure in place, as requested by the Association of Chief Police Officers, among other organisations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/may/11/may-backlash-european-arrest-warrant

    May be she could follow Clegg's strategy of agreeing to something and then dissing it in public to 'show a bit of leg' to the party activists?

    Like the NHS reforms? Yes, it would seem wise given that it's now fast becoming an EU posturing battle on the tory frontbenches. I don't think she'll follow Gove and Hammond in saying she would vote OUT just now but she will likely respond in some fashion.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Theresa May faces Tory backlash over retaining European arrest warrant

    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right


    Theresa May, the home secretary, is set to feel the wrath of Tory backbenchers over a tentative agreement struck with the Liberal Democrats to retain the controversial European arrest warrant.

    The coalition has been in tense negotiations over the future of the measure, which requires a member state to transfer its citizens without trial where there is suspicion that a crime has been committed elsewhere in the EU.

    The Tory Eurosceptic right has been campaigning for the warrant's abolition and May has publicly criticised it while refusing to confirm that the UK will continue to enforce it next year.

    In 2014 the UK will exercise its right to opt out of around 130 EU security and justice measures, including the warrant, only to opt into a smaller number, the identity of which has been hotly contested within the government.

    The Conservative leadership wants to opt back into just 30 measures, while the Lib Dems are seeking at least double that number, a Whitehall source told the Observer. A sticking point has been the European arrest warrant (EAW). Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg is known to be a keen supporter.

    It is understood that after months of talks the coalition has now reached a compromise on how to keep the EAW measure in place, as requested by the Association of Chief Police Officers, among other organisations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/may/11/may-backlash-european-arrest-warrant

    May be she could follow Clegg's strategy of agreeing to something and then dissing it in public to 'show a bit of leg' to the party activists?

    Like the NHS reforms? Yes, it would seem wise given that it's now fast becoming an EU posturing battle on the tory frontbenches. I don't think she'll follow Gove and Hammond in saying she would vote OUT just now but she will likely respond in some fashion.
    I was thinking more about the child care ratio as that's a little more topical.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    With those kind of rankings it's quite possible that the UK would be largest buyer of EU (in aggregate) exports. Germany is big in China, Spain in LatAm (I presume), etc.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    I'll pass on the yams. I don't need to eat eff-nick food to prove how trendy and right-on I am.
  • samsam Posts: 727

    @Sam

    Great news report from the 1980s. Anything more up to date?

    You views must have felt right at home!
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Theresa May faces Tory backlash over retaining European arrest warrant

    Deal with Liberal Democrats over controversial measure would incur wrath of Eurosceptic right


    Theresa May, the home secretary, is set to feel the wrath of Tory backbenchers over a tentative agreement struck with the Liberal Democrats to retain the controversial European arrest warrant.

    The coalition has been in tense negotiations over the future of the measure, which requires a member state to transfer its citizens without trial where there is suspicion that a crime has been committed elsewhere in the EU.

    The Tory Eurosceptic right has been campaigning for the warrant's abolition and May has publicly criticised it while refusing to confirm that the UK will continue to enforce it next year.

    In 2014 the UK will exercise its right to opt out of around 130 EU security and justice measures, including the warrant, only to opt into a smaller number, the identity of which has been hotly contested within the government.

    The Conservative leadership wants to opt back into just 30 measures, while the Lib Dems are seeking at least double that number, a Whitehall source told the Observer. A sticking point has been the European arrest warrant (EAW). Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg is known to be a keen supporter.

    It is understood that after months of talks the coalition has now reached a compromise on how to keep the EAW measure in place, as requested by the Association of Chief Police Officers, among other organisations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/may/11/may-backlash-european-arrest-warrant

    May be she could follow Clegg's strategy of agreeing to something and then dissing it in public to 'show a bit of leg' to the party activists?

    Like the NHS reforms? Yes, it would seem wise given that it's now fast becoming an EU posturing battle on the tory frontbenches. I don't think she'll follow Gove and Hammond in saying she would vote OUT just now but she will likely respond in some fashion.
    I was thinking more about the child care ratio as that's a little more topical.
    I know you were but I was reminding you that there's nothing new about such tactics and indeed there's going to be far more of it to come. From both sides.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Socrates said:

    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.

    I'm glad we have you on board. However, on the immigration point, does your logic extend to non-EU persons, and would you not be bothered if we had open immigration from the entire world?

    I think a lot of non-EU immigration is non-work-related. But to the extent that it is and UK citizens have full reciprocal rights I am not that concerned.

    I am on board to the extent I think about it. As things stand I see withdrawal as being far less significant than other things this country could do to dig ourselves out of our current hole. It's not a priority issue for me.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    sam said:

    @Sam

    Great news report from the 1980s. Anything more up to date?

    You views must have felt right at home!

    If I remember correctly you have told us you were a Labour voter back then. That report reminds us why so many weren't.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    With those kind of rankings it's quite possible that the UK would be largest buyer of EU (in aggregate) exports. Germany is big in China, Spain in LatAm (I presume), etc.
    I doubt it , France's biggest export market is Germany and vice versa .Spain has France at No 1 and Germany at No 2 . Italy has Germany at No 1 and France at No 2 .

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.

    I'm glad we have you on board. However, on the immigration point, does your logic extend to non-EU persons, and would you not be bothered if we had open immigration from the entire world?

    I think a lot of non-EU immigration is non-work-related. But to the extent that it is and UK citizens have full reciprocal rights I am not that concerned.

    I am on board to the extent I think about it. As things stand I see withdrawal as being far less significant than other things this country could do to dig ourselves out of our current hole. It's not a priority issue for me.

    Is there any level of immigration which you would think would be too high for this country to absorb? If so, how much higher would it be than what we've had in the last decade?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Peter_2 said:

    I'll pass on the yams. I don't need to eat eff-nick food to prove how trendy and right-on I am.

    What about eating ethnic food because it's better than British food?
  • samsam Posts: 727

    sam said:

    @Sam

    Great news report from the 1980s. Anything more up to date?

    You views must have felt right at home!

    If I remember correctly you have told us you were a Labour voter back then. That report reminds us why so many weren't.

    I was about ten then so probably wasnt too interested!

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited May 2013

    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    With those kind of rankings it's quite possible that the UK would be largest buyer of EU (in aggregate) exports. Germany is big in China, Spain in LatAm (I presume), etc.
    I doubt it , France's biggest export market is Germany and vice versa .Spain has France at No 1 and Germany at No 2 . Italy has Germany at No 1 and France at No 2 .

    From Jan 2013 ;

    " Fresh data from the Bundesbank show that Anglo-German trade in goods and services soared to €153bn in the first nine months of 2012, with both exports and imports booming at double-digit rates.
    It is one of the fastest growing trade relationships in the developed world. France lagged behind at €150bn as trade stagnated, with the US at €149bn and China at €115bn.
    David Marsh from the financial group OMFIF said the trade swing underlines a “sobering truth” that Germany’s fundamental interests are shifting away from the eurozone core as Berlin embraces the wider world. The EMU share of German trade has fallen from 46pc to 37pc since the launch of the euro, displaced by Asia, as well as Eastern Europe and the Anglo-sphere."
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    We could have a 1x1 swap between EU imigrants and Labour's third world imported voters. We garnish our Euro credentials and reduce the risk of home based suicide bombers. Will also remove Labourite voters from the rolls. Win win I think.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Got to say that when I do give it some thought staying in the EU does not make much sense to me. A much more selective relationship with the Eurozone is probably what all parties would be after if we were starting from here. I am not bothered by immigration from other parts of Europe - you can't have too many hardworking, ambitious people in a country - and I don't buy the nonsense about straight bananas, but in a globalising world we do not want to be tied to a great chunk of geography whose needs are so clearly different to our own.

    I'm glad we have you on board. However, on the immigration point, does your logic extend to non-EU persons, and would you not be bothered if we had open immigration from the entire world?

    I think a lot of non-EU immigration is non-work-related. But to the extent that it is and UK citizens have full reciprocal rights I am not that concerned.

    I am on board to the extent I think about it. As things stand I see withdrawal as being far less significant than other things this country could do to dig ourselves out of our current hole. It's not a priority issue for me.

    Is there any level of immigration which you would think would be too high for this country to absorb? If so, how much higher would it be than what we've had in the last decade?

    I think we've had too much over the last 15 years, but that's because a fair percentage has been non-work-related. Obviously, there is a finite number, but I don't know what it is. I am arguing in principle and do not have a clearly thought-through fully implementable policy!

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638
    edited May 2013



    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    Utterly misleading. For France we are indeed the 4th largest export market but since the other three markets are all other EU countries, if we were to leave then we would become the largest export market for EU goods originating in France.

    The same applies to Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands. Germany and Italy both export more to the US than to the UK and Germany also exports more to China but overall Socrates is absolutely correct that if the UK left the EU we would, on current figures, be its largest export market.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    Socrates said:

    Peter_2 said:

    I'll pass on the yams. I don't need to eat eff-nick food to prove how trendy and right-on I am.

    What about eating ethnic food because it's better than British food?
    I rarely eat British fare.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited May 2013

    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    surbiton said:

    On one of your specific points - yes in the EEA we would have work permits. Norway does today although they do not have to be renewed as long as you stay in employment. If you lose employment you have to leave the country. So on that point you are 100% wrong.

    Now it's you that's lying. Those are not 'work permits'. They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, and get a free-of-charge certificate which doesn't even need renewing. It gives Norway precisely zero freedom to disallow EU workers from working in Norway or set numeric quotas - which is what Farage means by 'work permits', and what everyone would understand by the term.
    Wrong. They are work/residence permits which have existed for at least 2 decades. The only change now is that they do not have to be renewed.

    "EEA nationals who wish to stay longer than 90 days, need a residence permit. Applications should be lodged at the local Police Station in Norway.

    In order to apply, the following documentation must be submitted:

    Application form
    Valid passport
    Two new photographs (please click here for photo requirements)
    Offer of Employment / Employment contract / Other means of subsistence"

    So exactly as I stated. No job, no permit.

    You really are getting desperate now Richard.

    So, when are you going to start setting out what areas Cameron is going to be asking for renegotiation with the EU and what he will do when they say no? (with links to his actual policies please, not just what you think they might be). Or are you going to persist with these distraction efforts to cover the fact the Tories have no coherent policy on this?
    Heck. I hate to be on Richard N's side but that is exactly what he wrote.

    "They are automatic entitlements which Norway cannot legally refuse. You just turn up, show evidence you have a job, "

    If you have a job, the Norwegian government cannot say No. Is that what Farage means by a work permit ?
    I imagine what Farage means by a work permit is what would happen after we have negotiated our own "better than Switzerland" style deal.
    Is it just Farage's naivety or yours that the rest of EU will acquiesce to any terms we seek. Why should they ? What cards do we hold ?
    That we're the largest buyer of their exports and they're suffering from a massive economic crisis?
    From memory that is incorrect , I think we rank 3rd or 4th in terms of size of exports by EU nations

    That's a different metric. I'm talking about buying other EU countries' exports rather than selling ours.
    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    With those kind of rankings it's quite possible that the UK would be largest buyer of EU (in aggregate) exports. Germany is big in China, Spain in LatAm (I presume), etc.
    I doubt it , France's biggest export market is Germany and vice versa .Spain has France at No 1 and Germany at No 2 . Italy has Germany at No 1 and France at No 2 .

    Makes it even more likely that the UK would be high up the list for EU aggregate exports if they left the EU.

    Sales by EU countries within the EU would be netted out rather than treated as exports if they remained within the EU.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638



    I doubt it , France's biggest export market is Germany and vice versa .Spain has France at No 1 and Germany at No 2 . Italy has Germany at No 1 and France at No 2 .

    As I said utterly misleading since in the post you replied to originally Socrates was specifically referring to EU exports not those of individual countries. Internal trade within the EU does not count as EU exports.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    This video has been seized upon by the BNP, which doesnt help, and the guys a bit racist, he says British National Identity has been destroyed...

    Duuurrr! Theres never been such a thing

    But interesting all the same

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhi-totcVVE

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    Utterly misleading. For France we are indeed the 4th largest export market but since the other three markets are all other EU countries, if we were to leave then we would become the largest export market for EU goods originating in France.

    The same applies to Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands. Germany and Italy both export more to the US than to the UK and Germany also exports more to China but overall Socrates is absolutely correct that if the UK left the EU we would, on current figures, be its largest export market.
    Richard, it's not "utterly misleading". It's just wrong.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tim said:

    @Peter2

    Whats ethnic food,does fish and chips from Jewish immigrants count?

    Actually, fish and chips is not a Jewish food as such. It just so happens that a bright jewish kid had the idea to combine the two foods. The real Jewish foods that Ashkenazi Jews brought to Britain was smoked salmon and mamas real heimisha chicken soup with lockshen (vermicilli).

    Fish and chips became a stock meal among the working classes in Great Britain as a consequence of the rapid development of trawl fishing in the North Sea, and the development of railways which connected the ports to major industrial cities during the second half of the 19th century, which meant that fresh fish could be rapidly transported to the heavily populated areas.[1] In 1860, the first fish and chip shop was opened in London by Joseph Malin.[2]
    ___________________________

    One hundred and fifty years ago, in 1860, on the streets of the East End of London, 13-year-old Jewish boy called Joseph Malin had the bright idea of combining fried fish with chips.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275320/The-Portugese-gave-fried-fish-Belgians-invented-chips-150-years-ago-East-End-boy-united-create-The-Worlds-Greatest-Double-Act.html#ixzz2T6PZBqO4
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    _________________________________

    Deep-fried chips (slices or pieces of potato) as a dish may have first appeared in Britain in about the same period: the Oxford English Dictionary notes as its earliest usage of "chips" in this sense the mention in Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (published in 1859): "Husky chips of potatoes, fried with some reluctant drops of oil".
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited May 2013
    6.2 million unemployed in Spain but complacent millionaire EdM thinks all's well with the EU. Thank God for the Church.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10052268/Spanish-prelate-fears-mutual-hatred-over-euro-crisis.html
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited May 2013
    Charles said:



    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    Utterly misleading. For France we are indeed the 4th largest export market but since the other three markets are all other EU countries, if we were to leave then we would become the largest export market for EU goods originating in France.

    The same applies to Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands. Germany and Italy both export more to the US than to the UK and Germany also exports more to China but overall Socrates is absolutely correct that if the UK left the EU we would, on current figures, be its largest export market.
    Richard, it's not "utterly misleading". It's just wrong.
    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    Cripes - has the discussion really degenerated into whether you eat *foreign* food?

    In that case, I may as well apply for Chinese citizenship as that comprises about 80% of my diet. And my cats if we're talking leftovers/stolen off my plate... they're very partial to fried noodles.

    If I'm really lucky, I'll wake up and look like Lucy Liu.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @Peter2

    Whats ethnic food,does fish and chips from Jewish immigrants count?

    Actually, fish and chips is not a Jewish food as such. It just so happens that a bright jewish kid had the idea to combine the two foods. The real Jewish foods that Ashkenazi Jews brought to Britain was smoked salmon and mamas real heimisha chicken soup with lockshen (vermicilli).

    Fish and chips became a stock meal among the working classes in Great Britain as a consequence of the rapid development of trawl fishing in the North Sea, and the development of railways which connected the ports to major industrial cities during the second half of the 19th century, which meant that fresh fish could be rapidly transported to the heavily populated areas.[1] In 1860, the first fish and chip shop was opened in London by Joseph Malin.[2]
    ___________________________

    One hundred and fifty years ago, in 1860, on the streets of the East End of London, 13-year-old Jewish boy called Joseph Malin had the bright idea of combining fried fish with chips.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275320/The-Portugese-gave-fried-fish-Belgians-invented-chips-150-years-ago-East-End-boy-united-create-The-Worlds-Greatest-Double-Act.html#ixzz2T6PZBqO4
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    _________________________________

    Deep-fried chips (slices or pieces of potato) as a dish may have first appeared in Britain in about the same period: the Oxford English Dictionary notes as its earliest usage of "chips" in this sense the mention in Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (published in 1859): "Husky chips of potatoes, fried with some reluctant drops of oil".
    What a super article. Thanks for posting the link. :-)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It really is back to the 70s...

    Ministers are considering intervening to rescue stricken miner UK Coal by taking its fire-hit Daw Mill colliery into public ownership, it emerged this weekend.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10052521/Ministers-consider-bail-out-for-UK-Coal-after-pit-blaze.html
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638



    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

    Wrong. Your figures are misleading because Socrates was talking about the UK being the largest export market for the EU. You have misused the individual country figures to make it seem like the UK is not the largest export market for the EU overall. It is and there is good reason to believe it will remain so if and when we leave.

    You cannot use the internal EU trade because that is, by definition, not EU exports.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

    Wrong. Your figures are misleading because Socrates was talking about the UK being the largest export market for the EU. You have misused the individual country figures to make it seem like the UK is not the largest export market for the EU overall. It is and there is good reason to believe it will remain so if and when we leave.

    You cannot use the internal EU trade because that is, by definition, not EU exports.
    No Richard , you are talking drivel , We ARE in the EU whether you like it or not and therefore my figures are correct and not misleading . To take your argument to it;s non logical conclusion we currently import and export nothing to Germany or France because we are all in the EU .

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638



    No Richard , you are talking drivel , We ARE in the EU whether you like it or not and therefore my figures are correct and not misleading . To take your argument to it;s non logical conclusion we currently import and export nothing to Germany or France because we are all in the EU .

    But we are talking about when we leave.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    No Richard , you are talking drivel , We ARE in the EU whether you like it or not and therefore my figures are correct and not misleading . To take your argument to it;s non logical conclusion we currently import and export nothing to Germany or France because we are all in the EU .

    But we are talking about when we leave.
    But we are not going to leave except in your wet dreams .
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT Has anyone heard of a eco-friendly form of insulation that made of fungi? It's supposedly very resistant to burning.

    It's a new one on me.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638



    But we are not going to leave except in your wet dreams .

    Someone else who scorns the opinion of the majority of the British public.

    Liberal Democrats; neither liberal nor democratic.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tim said:

    @MikeK.
    Depends which version you believe.
    Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal were great fish fryers.

    http://forward.com/articles/126975/fish-and-chips-a-sephardic-delicacy/

    Bloody immigration into the East End eh, wrecking schools, destroying British culture with their bagels and fryers.

    Well they never came in their millions, tim. I think, because no one has the actual numbers, just suppositions, that about 120,000 Jews (mainly from Russia) settled in GB from about 1880 to 1910. There was a small settled Sephardi population of about 30,000 Jews, of whom Disraeli was one.

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    tim said:

    @LordAshcroft: Just finished analysing Queen's Speech. Hardly worth Queen and Charles turning up. Should have given Princess Beatrice a run at it!!


    I have a feeling that Ashcroft has become increasingly bitter over being overlooked in favour of the Aussie election adviser and the government's intention to crack down on tax havens. At least Labour MPs and tim don't shout "Ashcroft" every five minutes.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @MikeK.
    Depends which version you believe.
    Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal were great fish fryers.

    http://forward.com/articles/126975/fish-and-chips-a-sephardic-delicacy/

    Bloody immigration into the East End eh, wrecking schools, destroying British culture with their bagels and fryers.

    Well they never came in their millions, tim. I think, because no one has the actual numbers, just suppositions, that about 120,000 Jews (mainly from Russia) settled in GB from about 1880 to 1910. There was a small settled Sephardi population of about 30,000 Jews, of whom Disraeli was one.

    Wasn't Gateshead once the largest Jewish community in the UK for a while? I can't recall where I read it so happy to be corrected.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    But we are not going to leave except in your wet dreams .

    Someone else who scorns the opinion of the majority of the British public.

    Liberal Democrats; neither liberal nor democratic.
    I am not scorning the majority of the British public . Giving an opinion to an opinion pollster is vastly different to having to take a real decision in the ballot box which may affect the livelihood of themselves and their families . In any case there is a large minority who even now tell the pollsters that they would vote to stay in the EU . It is they that you , Socrates and others poor scorn on daily in your twisting and distorting of facts to suit your belief .

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322



    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

    Wrong. Your figures are misleading because Socrates was talking about the UK being the largest export market for the EU. You have misused the individual country figures to make it seem like the UK is not the largest export market for the EU overall. It is and there is good reason to believe it will remain so if and when we leave.

    You cannot use the internal EU trade because that is, by definition, not EU exports.
    No Richard , you are talking drivel , We ARE in the EU whether you like it or not and therefore my figures are correct and not misleading . To take your argument to it;s non logical conclusion we currently import and export nothing to Germany or France because we are all in the EU .

    Yet clearly we were talking about the UK if we left the EU. If either Germany or France left the EU, I also agree that the remainder EU would almost certainly sign a free trade agreement with them.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited May 2013
    Plato said:

    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @MikeK.
    Depends which version you believe.
    Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal were great fish fryers.

    http://forward.com/articles/126975/fish-and-chips-a-sephardic-delicacy/

    Bloody immigration into the East End eh, wrecking schools, destroying British culture with their bagels and fryers.

    Well they never came in their millions, tim. I think, because no one has the actual numbers, just suppositions, that about 120,000 Jews (mainly from Russia) settled in GB from about 1880 to 1910. There was a small settled Sephardi population of about 30,000 Jews, of whom Disraeli was one.

    Wasn't Gateshead once the largest Jewish community in the UK for a while? I can't recall where I read it so happy to be corrected.
    I don't know about that, Plato. The main settlements were Manchester, Leeds and London. At their maximum in about 1948, there were just under 490,000 Jews in Britain. Now there are about half that number due to intermarriage and the general decline of religion.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    MikeK said:

    Plato said:

    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @MikeK.
    Depends which version you believe.
    Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal were great fish fryers.

    http://forward.com/articles/126975/fish-and-chips-a-sephardic-delicacy/

    Bloody immigration into the East End eh, wrecking schools, destroying British culture with their bagels and fryers.

    Well they never came in their millions, tim. I think, because no one has the actual numbers, just suppositions, that about 120,000 Jews (mainly from Russia) settled in GB from about 1880 to 1910. There was a small settled Sephardi population of about 30,000 Jews, of whom Disraeli was one.

    Wasn't Gateshead once the largest Jewish community in the UK for a while? I can't recall where I read it so happy to be corrected.
    I don't know about that, Plato. The main settlements were Manchester, Leeds and London. At their maximum in about 1948, there were just under 490,000 Jews in Britain. Now there are about half that number due to intermarriage and the general decline of religion.

    Someone has mentioned it ion Wiki "Following the Holocaust, Gateshead became home to the largest Orthodox Jewish education complex in postwar Europe, and the most significant outside of the United States and Israel."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_North_East_England
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    End £145 BBC PollTax ‏@ShutDown_theBBC
    How can the #BBC report honestly on #NHS when bbc staff are given BUPA private healthcare at the expense of poor BBC poll tax #TVtax payers
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    Yes so am I . we are the 3rd largest export market for Germany , 4th for France and the Netherlands , 6th for Spain and Italy .

    Utterly misleading. For France we are indeed the 4th largest export market but since the other three markets are all other EU countries, if we were to leave then we would become the largest export market for EU goods originating in France.

    The same applies to Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands. Germany and Italy both export more to the US than to the UK and Germany also exports more to China but overall Socrates is absolutely correct that if the UK left the EU we would, on current figures, be its largest export market.
    Richard, it's not "utterly misleading". It's just wrong.
    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

    Don't know why you think I don't like them because they don't fit my narrative. I don't like them because we import too much and export too little, but I doubt many would disagree with me on that.

    As for narrative, I care about the use and misuse of statistics.

    The question was about the EU, not about aggregate countries.

    It was also about EU exports (assuming the UK had left) and not internal trade.

    I'll accept that they were factually accurate but completely irrelevant if you prefer
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    The figures are absolutely correct and factual , you just do not like them as they do not fit your narrative . I am not denying that the UK is an important export market for EU countries and their products just as they are for ours , inside or outside the EU we are not and would not be their No 1 export market .

    Wrong. Your figures are misleading because Socrates was talking about the UK being the largest export market for the EU. You have misused the individual country figures to make it seem like the UK is not the largest export market for the EU overall. It is and there is good reason to believe it will remain so if and when we leave.

    You cannot use the internal EU trade because that is, by definition, not EU exports.
    No Richard , you are talking drivel , We ARE in the EU whether you like it or not and therefore my figures are correct and not misleading . To take your argument to it;s non logical conclusion we currently import and export nothing to Germany or France because we are all in the EU .

    The discussion was a hypothetical.

    If the UK were to leave the EU (which is unlikely, IMHO, at least near term), then we would have a strong hand in negotiating terms of trade with them because we import more from the EU than we export to them. Therefore they profit from the relationship and would be keen for it to continue.
  • JohnWheatleyJohnWheatley Posts: 141
    One big difference is emerging between the current EU debate and that of 1975.

    Back then the key figures in the "No" campaign were not center ground politicians - Benn, Foot and Powell for example. The "Yes" campaign had the heaviest hitters in the leaderships on both sides. A "No" campaign with Gove, Hammond, IDS backed up by Lawson and Portillo would be a stronger beast even if it was unleavened by people on the Left.

    The other problem for those wishing to stay in is that it is increasingly unclear what benefits we get from membership. The EU may have a philosophical belief in "Ever closer Union" but I suspect most in the UK were trading political union for economic benefits. The latter look less and less critical by the day.

    The unspoken truth that Nick P and Mark Senior et al must confront is that there is a horrible democratic deficit in our relationship with Europe. It is a horribly elitist institution

    Personally I sit on the fence on the matter of the EU, so I would like the Euro-philes to come up with better arguments. All they seem to say is that closer union is inevitable and in the natural flow of history. Does that feed anyone's family?



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plato said:

    MikeK said:

    Plato said:

    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @MikeK.
    Depends which version you believe.
    Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal were great fish fryers.

    http://forward.com/articles/126975/fish-and-chips-a-sephardic-delicacy/

    Bloody immigration into the East End eh, wrecking schools, destroying British culture with their bagels and fryers.

    Well they never came in their millions, tim. I think, because no one has the actual numbers, just suppositions, that about 120,000 Jews (mainly from Russia) settled in GB from about 1880 to 1910. There was a small settled Sephardi population of about 30,000 Jews, of whom Disraeli was one.

    Wasn't Gateshead once the largest Jewish community in the UK for a while? I can't recall where I read it so happy to be corrected.
    I don't know about that, Plato. The main settlements were Manchester, Leeds and London. At their maximum in about 1948, there were just under 490,000 Jews in Britain. Now there are about half that number due to intermarriage and the general decline of religion.

    Someone has mentioned it ion Wiki "Following the Holocaust, Gateshead became home to the largest Orthodox Jewish education complex in postwar Europe, and the most significant outside of the United States and Israel."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_North_East_England
    Don't know if the Wiki reference is true or not, but it is talking about an Orthodox education complex, not a community in terms of numbers and culture.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @Charles

    "use and misuse of statistics"

    Please Charles, not after your Catholic adoption homes claims.
    That was all narrative and no facts wasn't it.

    I provided evidence from secondary sources. The Guardian and the Catholic Herald.

    I view them as more likely to have been validated than some random blog or local newspaper.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    It's worth bearing in mind that the supposed foreign policy "clout" the EU gives us doesn't even cover recognising British sovereignty over British territory:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/399025/Fury-as-EU-sneers-at-Falklanders-over-right-to-stay-British
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    This was referred to much earlier. Has anybody seen the newspaper stories that Michael Gove referred to this morning on Michael Oakeshott's plot against Clegg? He referred to it twice in the interview and I can't see it anywhere.

    Surely a Secretary of State was not making this up?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362



    But we are not going to leave except in your wet dreams .

    Someone else who scorns the opinion of the majority of the British public.

    Liberal Democrats; neither liberal nor democratic.
    Never a truer words posted mr Tyndall.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    But Mr. Gove is a Conservative who went to a public school and then Oxford?
    tim said:

    This was referred to much earlier. Has anybody seen the newspaper stories that Michael Gove referred to this morning on Michael Oakeshott's plot against Clegg? He referred to it twice in the interview and I can't see it anywhere.

    Surely a Secretary of State was not making this up?


    It was blindingly obvious he was making it up.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    edited May 2013
    antifrank said:

    The fifth column of the Conservative party is uninterested in maths.

    The Euroholics are the real fifth column!

  • But Mr. Gove is a Conservative who went to a public school and then Oxford?

    "Gove was born in Edinburgh, but at four months old he was adopted by a Labour-supporting family in Aberdeen, where he was brought up.[3] His father ran a fish processing business; his mother was a lab assistant at the University of Aberdeen before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf.[4]
    He was initially state school educated in Aberdeen, later attending the independent Robert Gordon's College, to which he won a scholarship.[3] From 1985 to 1988 he studied English at Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford", Wikipedia
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2013
    I finally got what Mandelson & Co were making a fuss about regarding parliamentary selections.

    It's around Falrking mess.

    Regardless the AWS row (as it's pretty standard stuff)....the main and more critical point is that Unite is apparently paying first year's membership fee to those who join the Labour party.

    I guess Unite will claim they are just convincing people from the Labour movement (I suppose it's their members they are paying the membership fee for, not random people) to become part of the Labour Party. But yes, it doesn't look good (it reminded me when Cllrs sign up their whole clan to the party just in time for (re)selection time).

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    This was referred to much earlier. Has anybody seen the newspaper stories that Michael Gove referred to this morning on Michael Oakeshott's plot against Clegg? He referred to it twice in the interview and I can't see it anywhere.

    Surely a Secretary of State was not making this up?

    Man alive! A LibDem getting holier than thou about whether a Cabinet Minister tells the truth. Chris Huhne? Nick Clegg? David Laws?

    It may also be he was repeating unsubstantiated rumours - it's been well established in the press than (allegedly) Oakeshott is a front runner for Cable, but no idea if there is a specific "plot" or if it is just the usual Westminster tittle-tattle
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    Is the Cabinet (the Conservative part anyway) moving against David Cameron tonight?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    But Mr. Gove is a Conservative who went to a public school and then Oxford?


    tim said:

    This was referred to much earlier. Has anybody seen the newspaper stories that Michael Gove referred to this morning on Michael Oakeshott's plot against Clegg? He referred to it twice in the interview and I can't see it anywhere.

    Surely a Secretary of State was not making this up?


    It was blindingly obvious he was making it up.
    As truthful as Tony Blair then?
  • samonipadsamonipad Posts: 182

    But Mr. Gove is a Conservative who went to a public school and then Oxford?

    "Gove was born in Edinburgh, but at four months old he was adopted by a Labour-supporting family in Aberdeen, where he was brought up.[3] His father ran a fish processing business; his mother was a lab assistant at the University of Aberdeen before working at the Aberdeen School for the Deaf.[4]
    He was initially state school educated in Aberdeen, later attending the independent Robert Gordon's College, to which he won a scholarship.[3] From 1985 to 1988 he studied English at Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford", Wikipedia
    Ugh disgusting privileged background
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    putting aside politics for a moment


    Once the residence permit is granted, is it ever reviewed?

    Not on a regular basis but it does become invalid if you no longer satisffy the criteria - primarily if you no longer have a job

    Is it possible to get the residence permit, then move to another job, or go on the dole without being deported?

    Yes you can move to another job. No you cannot go on the dole.

    Does it give the holder rights of access to the Norwegian welfare state, such as state housing?

    No. Whilst I worked there there were various times when I had to call upon Norwegian services such as hospitals and I always had to pay in full. They were even funny about the EHIC system at times because I was working there full time rather than just visiting as a tourist. To be honest when you are in pain you are not inclined to argue too much.

    I am genuinely curious, not least because my son is fond of Scandanvia and may want to work there

    Good place to work but the tax is a killer. More so if you are not getting access to any of the benefits.
    Thanks Richard,

    Those seem quite reasonable terms for workers from other countries to me, though I think that the EHIC system is supposed to be for short term residents only.

    I am coming round to this EEA rather than EU idea.

    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    SeanT said:

    Been in Portugal for a few days - I'm now on the wild, windy, sun-scorched western coast of the Algarve/Alentejo. It's glorious. Today I saw this: a rocky headland where 11th century Sufi warriors would come to pray before battle:

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/333566343112712192/photo/1

    The beaches are amazing:

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/333644589565087744/photo/1

    I also went to Prince William's favourite pizzeria, in a half deserted village down a lonely green valley, filled with warbling nightingales and scented with rockrose and thyme.

    Er, where was I, oh yes: all the Portuguese I speak to are contemptuous of the euro and the EU. When they are not contemptuous, they are in despair.

    What does this mean for the UK? Well, we forget how unpopular the EU has become, in countries like Spain and Portugal, where it used to be revered.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/24/trust-eu-falls-record-low

    It is possible that the EU will break up or change radically, thanks to the crisis of confidence on the continent, before we even get a vote in Blighty.

    yup, hence the shrillness changing sides as you mentioned elsewhere
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Good evening, everyone.

    Sounds like the tyres will be made more durable: http://www.espn.co.uk/spain/motorsport/story/107916.html

    Advantage Red Bull?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543

    ">

    I am coming round to this EEA rather than EU idea.

    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

    The main advantage of membership is that we can influence and, when we consider it crucial, veto decisions which will apply to both EU and EEA. If for example, other EU countries decided to let Turkey join, as an EEA member we would not be allowed to object, require transitional arrangements or whatever, but would be required to accept any number of Turkish workers who wanted to come. If we are confident that the other countries will always make decisions in our interest, then the EEA is indeed the cheaper option. More restful, too - instead of stressing over whether we agree with stuff, we can just await instructions.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963


    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

    Well at the moment we have to pay 18 billion Pounds per annum gross (for comparison's sake, aid to India amounts to only 300 million).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Palmer, didn't your lot surrender a load of vetoes in the Lisbon Treaty?

    British laws should only be made in Britain.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    ">

    I am coming round to this EEA rather than EU idea.

    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

    The main advantage of membership is that we can influence and, when we consider it crucial, veto decisions which will apply to both EU and EEA. If for example, other EU countries decided to let Turkey join, as an EEA member we would not be allowed to object, require transitional arrangements or whatever, but would be required to accept any number of Turkish workers who wanted to come. If we are confident that the other countries will always make decisions in our interest, then the EEA is indeed the cheaper option. More restful, too - instead of stressing over whether we agree with stuff, we can just await instructions.

    Aren't New Labour in favor of Turkish entry? Not much point in a veto if you have a europhile political class which wouldn't veto anything.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    For fans of Borgen and The Killing: Saw "A hijacking" this afternoon. It's got great reviews and of its kind it's excellent - very authentic, no compromise with stunts and drama, good picture of people under extreme pressure, and lots of familiar actors. It reminded me a bit of The Wages of Fear. But, without giving too much away, it's almost plot-free - I really wanted to like it, but...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548


    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

    Well at the moment we have to pay 18 billion Pounds per annum gross (for comparison's sake, aid to India amounts to only 300 million).
    I appreciate that we pay fairly large subs to the EU!, I meant what subs to be in the EEA?

    Nick P,

    I am not convinced by your argument over Turkey, In particular being in the EEA would give similiar rules to those that Norway apply, wouldn't it? and are these not tighter than the EU rules?

    In terms of vetoing things, I thought that the veto was not as absolute as previously, and imagine that the Greeks and Cypriots would be more than willing to veto Turkey, even if other countries did not!

    So apart from a theoretical veto, what else would we gain by staying in? The financial contribution would go, as would CAP and CFP, both clear plusses to me.

    And bear in mind I am tempramentally pro Europe!
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    'Quitting EU won't save 'lazy' Britain' says Boris (Telegraph fp):

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/333684930615861249/photo/1
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543

    Mr. Palmer, didn't your lot surrender a load of vetoes in the Lisbon Treaty?

    British laws should only be made in Britain.

    I'm not in favour of lots of vetoes - joint EU decision-making is the sensible approach. But the EEA is the negation of British laws made in Britain - it explicitly waives influence on the laws to which we commit ourselves to be governed. Far from being a Eurosceptic concept, it's the ultimate Europhilia, since it accepts that the EU will know best and we don't actually need any say in the rules.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Carola said:

    'Quitting EU won't save 'lazy' Britain' says Boris (Telegraph fp):

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/333684930615861249/photo/1

    but it will be a good start
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963


    What are the putative advantages to being in the EU over the EEA?

    Would we have to pay any contribution?

    Well at the moment we have to pay 18 billion Pounds per annum gross (for comparison's sake, aid to India amounts to only 300 million).
    I appreciate that we pay fairly large subs to the EU!, I meant what subs to be in the EEA?

    I don't have the figures to hand, but I think Richard Tyndall posted a few days ago that Norway as an EEA member pays roughly one third of what it might pay in as an EU member.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2013
    Former Countryfile presenter Miriam O'Reilly is seeking selection to be the Labour candidate in Nuneaton
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    SeanT said:

    Precisely why should we trust a single syllable Nick Palmer voices about the EU, when he has consistently and provably lied on this subject, on pb and elsewhere, again and again?

    That is the problem the europhiles face: we don't believe a f*cking word they say. It's gone beyond lack of respect, it's not even active disinterest, we now have nothing but contempt for them and their "views". They were, after all, the vermin who brought us the euro.

    And turning from abuse to your opinion about the EEA, you would add... oh, you've finished? Sad, really. You don't even pretend to have an argument worth listening to, do you?

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    Peter Bone on R4 who still seems to think there can be a tory UKIP pact.

    Tory Eurosceptics are so gullible it's staggering.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    tim said:

    @Carolah

    Is this what you sound like on a Friday night?

    @jreedmp: BBC Radio Stoke DJ is totally wasted during her last show, is then taken off air - http://t.co/EdIqgmKPxo
    Best. Thing. Ever.

    That's brilliant.

    I am a happy drunk, have to say.
This discussion has been closed.