If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
Nick Griffin offers to appoint a black head of the met and a black mayor of London if BNP get a majority... Is Doreen Lawrence being hypocritical if she doesn't vote BNP?
You think they'd pick her? It would be an interesting 4 years with her in charge of the Met, no denying it!
No I'm saying if they said there'd be black people in senior positions, and no other party was offering this, would you expect Doreen L to vote BNP? Or criticise her for not doing so?
Analogous to pro EU, ukip hating Cameron getting a mandate from the public to negotiate with the EU
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
You're being too modest there. All the key integrationist steps - accession, the Single European Act and eastern expansion - were Conservative achievements, not Labour ones. There are a few minor things like the working time directive that Labour signed up to, but the main thing that's going on here is that right-wing people are having second thoughts.
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
Richard, grow up and stop blaming UKIP for everything.
If the Tories don't get elected in 2015 it's there fault, not Ukip
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
You're being too modest there. All the key integrationist steps - accession, the Single European Act and eastern expansion - were Conservative achievements, not Labour ones. There are a few minor things like the working time directive that Labour signed up to, but the main thing that's going on here is that right-wing people are having second thoughts.
No not really./ Those of us who oppose the EU and are supporting UKIP to that end largely disagreed with the Tory policy when all those integrationist steps were being taken. We are not having second thoughts, merely finding that our first thoughts turned out to be correct and more people are now starting to see that.
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
You're being too modest there. All the key integrationist steps - accession, the Single European Act and eastern expansion - were Conservative achievements, not Labour ones. There are a few minor things like the working time directive that Labour signed up to, but the main thing that's going on here is that right-wing people are having second thoughts.
No not really./ Those of us who oppose the EU and are supporting UKIP to that end largely disagreed with the Tory policy when all those integrationist steps were being taken. We are not having second thoughts, merely finding that our first thoughts turned out to be correct and more people are now starting to see that.
Fair enough. But either way it's a situation Conservatives got themselves in, not something Labour foisted on them. It's not as if any of the main issues right-wing people are bothered about would go away if somebody magically repealed the changes Labour presided over (social chapter + Lisbon).
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
Richard, grow up and stop blaming UKIP for everything.
If the Tories don't get elected in 2015 it's there fault, not Ukip
Disagree, it'll be the voters' fault. (That and the voting system.) It's the voters who do the voting.
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
Richard, grow up and stop blaming UKIP for everything.
If the Tories don't get elected in 2015 it's there fault, not Ukip
Disagree, it'll be the voters' fault. (That and the voting system.) It's the voters who do the voting.
Fancy that! edmundintokyo doesn't think much of voters. I expect he would rather like an elite dictatorship.
If you're like a lot of mainstream Tories who are unenthusiastic about the EU and don't want to positively support it but also don't want to leave, you lose the referendum either way, unless it has a third option, "in but generally grumpy and passive-aggressive".
Some truth in that (although I wouldn't phrase it quite like that!), but that is because we shouldn't have started from here. I hardly see that as an argument in favour of UKIP's policy of helping Labour - the party which got us into this mess from which it is incredibly hard to extricate ourselves - back into power, and thus making it completely impossible to extricate ourselves.
Richard, grow up and stop blaming UKIP for everything.
If the Tories don't get elected in 2015 it's there fault, not Ukip
Disagree, it'll be the voters' fault. (That and the voting system.) It's the voters who do the voting.
Fancy that! edmundintokyo doesn't think much of voters. I expect he would rather like an elite dictatorship.
I wouldn't want that, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assign responsibility for the way the voters voted to the voters who did the voting. Do you?
Comments
Analogous to pro EU, ukip hating Cameron getting a mandate from the public to negotiate with the EU
If the Tories don't get elected in 2015 it's there fault, not Ukip
Lab 25 (+12)
UKIP 21 (+8)
Con 15 (-11)
LD 5 (-6)
Grn 1 (-1)
SNP 2 (nc)
Plaid 1 (nc)
a better poll for the LDs...