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  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,058
    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,514
    edited 9:42PM
    Has the fact that Find Out Now have an ‘implied turnout’ measure within their polling, and that it seems incredibly low, been discussed?

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 31% (+2)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (-1)
    🔵 Conservatives: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 16% (-1)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 11% (-)
    Implied turnout: 55%

    Changes from 28th January
    [Find Out Now, 4th February, N=2,264]

    https://x.com/findoutnowuk/status/2019450794664243292?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569
    edited 9:45PM

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem/forgive the loans.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 9:47PM

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    This is very much a media led campaign, they aren't going to let it go, as too many of youner journos are effected by the latest scheme which basically add a big extra tax band which is particularly punishing if you are like lots of younger jouranlists with a platform, on decent money but not amazing money. Reeves response of nothing to see, seems fair to me, I doubt it will hold.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,058
    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem the loans.
    It absolutely would, but the vast numbers now going into HE means nearly everyone has a young family member getting robbed blind by Plan 2 loans, which are as shady as fuck.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 9:49PM
    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem/forgive the loans.
    The problem is the public won't accept the other alternative as their little starlet must go to uni full time, no ifs, no buts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,481
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Dear Mr. Ambassador,

    Your position that you will not maintain relations with Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who was elected by a parliamentary majority representing the majority of Poles, is simply outrageous. The times when ambassadors dictated to Poles who should hold what office in Poland are over and will never return. We want good relations with the United States, but your representatives will not choose the authorities of the Republic of Poland for us.

    I have never been a fan of Włodzimierz Czarzasty, but in this matter, as a Member of Parliament, I stand firmly behind him. Your President first insulted Polish soldiers and then demands support for his dreams of receiving the Nobel Prize. The times when Nero, under threat of punishment, demanded recognition for his musical talents have been regarded as the beginning of the decline of the Roman Empire. From the Polish perspective, Donald Trump’s efforts to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, while at the same time hanging a photograph of himself with the greatest criminal of our times—Putin—are similar to Nero’s demands for awards and praise.

    If you do not like the Polish authorities, please change your job.

    https://x.com/GiertychRoman/status/2019441160280850671
    The Ambassador also needs, very urgently, to sort out his spellcheck. And to take some lessons in grammar.

    Honestly, the average letter from British Gas is better written and certainly better punctuated than that unhinged drivel.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,994

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    This is very much a media led campaign, they aren't going to let it go, as too many of youner journos are effected by the latest scheme which basically add a big extra tax band which is particularly punishing if you are like lots of younger jouranlists with a platform, on decent money but not amazing money. Reeves response of nothing to see, seems fair to me, I doubt it will hold.
    The reason everyone knows about it is probably more to do with Martin Lewis to be honest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Dear Mr. Ambassador,

    Your position that you will not maintain relations with Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who was elected by a parliamentary majority representing the majority of Poles, is simply outrageous. The times when ambassadors dictated to Poles who should hold what office in Poland are over and will never return. We want good relations with the United States, but your representatives will not choose the authorities of the Republic of Poland for us.

    I have never been a fan of Włodzimierz Czarzasty, but in this matter, as a Member of Parliament, I stand firmly behind him. Your President first insulted Polish soldiers and then demands support for his dreams of receiving the Nobel Prize. The times when Nero, under threat of punishment, demanded recognition for his musical talents have been regarded as the beginning of the decline of the Roman Empire. From the Polish perspective, Donald Trump’s efforts to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, while at the same time hanging a photograph of himself with the greatest criminal of our times—Putin—are similar to Nero’s demands for awards and praise.

    If you do not like the Polish authorities, please change your job.

    https://x.com/GiertychRoman/status/2019441160280850671
    The Ambassador also needs, very urgently, to sort out his spellcheck. And to take some lessons in grammar.

    Honestly, the average letter from British Gas is better written and certainly better punctuated than that unhinged drivel.
    Remarkable, though, since Poland is (or was) one of the most pro US countries in Europe.

    I never imagined I'd say this.
    But the American ambassador should be made persona non grata and kicked out of Poland by the Polish government.
    Last tweet should be the end of his barely started term in Warsaw.
    If we want to be sovereign, this is the time. That's my opinion.

    https://x.com/SaladinAlDronni/status/2019471044776514032
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569
    edited 9:54PM

    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem the loans.
    It absolutely would, but the vast numbers now going into HE means nearly everyone has a young family member getting robbed blind by Plan 2 loans, which are as shady as fuck.
    Oh I do agree with that. I also think we’d be better off going back to the old system of sending fewer to Uni and the state funding it.

    But, like with the WASPI women, they put up the least sympathetic people to advocate their cause and, in this case, they never propose a viable solution.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    This is very much a media led campaign, they aren't going to let it go, as too many of youner journos are effected by the latest scheme which basically add a big extra tax band which is particularly punishing if you are like lots of younger jouranlists with a platform, on decent money but not amazing money. Reeves response of nothing to see, seems fair to me, I doubt it will hold.
    The reason everyone knows about it is probably more to do with Martin Lewis to be honest.
    Its interesting that he used to be very relaxed about it telling people not to worry its just a capped graduate tax, which is no better or worse than the other options.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    This is very much a media led campaign, they aren't going to let it go, as too many of youner journos are effected by the latest scheme which basically add a big extra tax band which is particularly punishing if you are like lots of younger jouranlists with a platform, on decent money but not amazing money. Reeves response of nothing to see, seems fair to me, I doubt it will hold.
    The reason everyone knows about it is probably more to do with Martin Lewis to be honest.
    Its interesting that he used to be very relaxed about it telling people not to worry its just a capped graduate tax, which is no better or worse than the other options.
    Indeed he did. He also used to advise people not to pay it up front too.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569
    A decent game of Rugby to start the tournament. But WTF is it with these sodding ads.

    Do I not like them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Dear Mr. Ambassador,

    Your position that you will not maintain relations with Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who was elected by a parliamentary majority representing the majority of Poles, is simply outrageous. The times when ambassadors dictated to Poles who should hold what office in Poland are over and will never return. We want good relations with the United States, but your representatives will not choose the authorities of the Republic of Poland for us.

    I have never been a fan of Włodzimierz Czarzasty, but in this matter, as a Member of Parliament, I stand firmly behind him. Your President first insulted Polish soldiers and then demands support for his dreams of receiving the Nobel Prize. The times when Nero, under threat of punishment, demanded recognition for his musical talents have been regarded as the beginning of the decline of the Roman Empire. From the Polish perspective, Donald Trump’s efforts to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, while at the same time hanging a photograph of himself with the greatest criminal of our times—Putin—are similar to Nero’s demands for awards and praise.

    If you do not like the Polish authorities, please change your job.

    https://x.com/GiertychRoman/status/2019441160280850671
    The Ambassador also needs, very urgently, to sort out his spellcheck. And to take some lessons in grammar.

    Honestly, the average letter from British Gas is better written and certainly better punctuated than that unhinged drivel.
    Remarkable, though, since Poland is (or was) one of the most pro US countries in Europe.

    I never imagined I'd say this.
    But the American ambassador should be made persona non grata and kicked out of Poland by the Polish government.
    Last tweet should be the end of his barely started term in Warsaw.
    If we want to be sovereign, this is the time. That's my opinion.

    https://x.com/SaladinAlDronni/status/2019471044776514032
    The US ambassador, still shitposting.

    https://x.com/TomRoseIndy/status/2019508942385344784
    Should we take all our soldiers and equipment with us?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 9:58PM
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem the loans.
    It absolutely would, but the vast numbers now going into HE means nearly everyone has a young family member getting robbed blind by Plan 2 loans, which are as shady as fuck.
    Oh I do agree with that. I also think we’d be better off going back to the old system of sending fewer to Uni and the state funding it.

    But, like with the WASPI women, they put up the least sympathetic people to advocate their cause and, in this case, they never propose a viable solution.
    As long as I have posted on here I have argued against the current system but also not for the old system. We do need less institutions, some reduction in those going to university, and less nonsense courses / more focus on STEM, but the big change is more of a mix between full time and part time, basically getting away from this idea that basically everybody at 18 going to uni does so via moving away from home to study full time for 3-4 years. Most European countries don't do this.

    If you aren't going back to uni vs poly, then the more vocational courses, it is only logical that the vocational ones mix work with study.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274
    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,010
    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem/forgive the loans.
    If the loans were made interest free (+ CPI if you insist) I expect many would pay them off early and the government coffers would benefit for a decade at least, and quite possibly do better overall.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 10:00PM
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem/forgive the loans.
    If the loans were made interest free (+ CPI if you insist) I expect many would pay them off early and the government coffers would benefit for a decade at least, and quite possibly do better overall.
    What they have done by stealth is turn it into a even more of a graduate tax as the higher your income the higher interest rate you pay. And in doing so again added another cliff edge at ~£50k.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 993
    edited 10:00PM

    Omnium said:

    Ratters said:

    Anyway, my evening's entertainment is watching Bitcoin slowly, but also quite quickly, collapse in real time.

    A lot of people are 'worth' a hell of a lot less than they thought they were 4 months ago.

    It's a very interesting moment.

    I have no direct exposure to crypto, nor would I ever have, but the spillover of BC=0 might be significant. My very long term view is that these are valueless things, but I've been wrong on the very long term so far, and really entirely expect to continue to be wrong.
    Crypto as a whole should never be completely valueless - it's great for niche use cases of various forms of illegality.

    (Illegality doesn't have to be a bad thing. Even if you are one of the 90% of the population who incorrectly thinks drugs should remain illegal, do you fell the same way about gambling? Evading elite-favouring currency controls? Getting assets out of a despotic regime? Rewarding intelligence assets?)

    That doesn't necessarily mean that bitcoin has to have a value, but so much of the crypto universe is tied up with it that it's the best equivalent to gold atm.

    I am not saying buy it at anything like these prices... bottom pickers get smelly fingers and all that... but there is a price that I would (highly speculatively) - probably around 10k and averaging down...
    Gold has a real value as it is consumed, in not just jewellery but electronics, medicine and much, much more.

    Yes it holds value as a "safe" commodity, but that commodity is underpinned by intrinsic value. If people stopped investing in gold today, it would still be consumed and have a value tomorrow.

    Crypto has no such intrinsic value. Worse, it has a massive cost of overheads instead.
    How much would you price gold at for its industrial etc uses? The intrinsic value is bugger all comparatively. Better than diamonds at least I guess.

    Similarly a medium of exchange has intrinsic value and that's why *some* crypto will definitely be of value once this is over - it's just too useful for getting around the tyrannical political elites who want to keep all the cocaine for themselves.

    It is of course possible bitcoin itself goes to literally or near as dammit zero (there are theoretical ways it can happen) as it doesn't have the millennia of history of gold and is actually pretty crap as a medium of exchange compared to other coins - but it is the nearest thing to gold that crypto has so far.

    None of this is to say you should "invest" in it, but if it drops to below 10k then if the facts haven't changed then I'm absolutely buying some as a punt.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,357
    I love it when my younger colleagues are wibbling on about their student loans.

    It gives an old fart like me a chance to smugly mention the full grant and free university education that I enjoyed back in the 80s.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,772
    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835

    I love it when my younger colleagues are wibbling on about their student loans.

    It gives an old fart like me a chance to smugly mention the full grant and free university education that I enjoyed back in the 80s.

    I bet that makes you dead popular.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,514
    This week, you may have read assertions that Starmer does not like the house guest, pen pal and beneficiary of Jeffrey Epstein he appointed and then sacked as Britain’s ambassador to the US. Cynics may dismiss that as all-too-convenient revisionism but it is all true. For the prime minister, the Labour Party is not a birthright, lifestyle or social network but a utilitarian career choice: much more effective, he told me years ago, than wasting years of one’s life on strategic litigation or suing the police. What offended Starmer most about Jeremy Corbyn was not so much the ideology but the insufficient respect for the sanctity of bureaucratic process, of punctuality and meetings properly chaired.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/720af3a9-dd66-473f-a13f-f57afa1c95fe?shareToken=008743eaf0fdff1c39ab227d3d837f89
  • isamisam Posts: 43,514
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    Back in September, Mandelson said himself there would be lots more embarrassing stuff to come out, doesn’t the government read the news?
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,058
    edited 10:06PM
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem the loans.
    It absolutely would, but the vast numbers now going into HE means nearly everyone has a young family member getting robbed blind by Plan 2 loans, which are as shady as fuck.
    Oh I do agree with that. I also think we’d be better off going back to the old system of sending fewer to Uni and the state funding it.

    But, like with the WASPI women, they put up the least sympathetic people to advocate their cause and, in this case, they never propose a viable solution.
    One of the solutions proposed on QT was 0% loans - unworkable given present numbers going to HE.

    I'm afraid the real answer is to stop funding a section of the crappier institutions, and prioritise funding for occupations we actually need. Unfortunately, no politician wants to tell middle class parents that Josh doesn't need to go to university to study History of Art, or similar.

    We could actually go back to things which were trialled and worked e.g. the Repayment of Teacher Loans scheme in the early 00s. It was successful in improving teacher recruitment so NuLabour scrapped it, pinging us into a 20 year teacher recruitment crisis.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,994

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    This is very much a media led campaign, they aren't going to let it go, as too many of youner journos are effected by the latest scheme which basically add a big extra tax band which is particularly punishing if you are like lots of younger jouranlists with a platform, on decent money but not amazing money. Reeves response of nothing to see, seems fair to me, I doubt it will hold.
    The reason everyone knows about it is probably more to do with Martin Lewis to be honest.
    Its interesting that he used to be very relaxed about it telling people not to worry its just a capped graduate tax, which is no better or worse than the other options.
    I think his main objection is the way the terms keep being changed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 10:08PM
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    Starmer is going to be trapped in the worst of both worlds. They can't do a big cover it up as their MPs revolted and they can't do a massive data dump all the docs and take the hit immediately because the plod, while there will be constant leaks and off the record briefings.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454
    Is Mandelson allowed to leak all of the messages sent to him?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Interesting cut through of the student loans issue on QT - entire audience seems against the current position.

    I’m sure their view would change if it meant them having to pay more tax to redeem the loans.
    It absolutely would, but the vast numbers now going into HE means nearly everyone has a young family member getting robbed blind by Plan 2 loans, which are as shady as fuck.
    Oh I do agree with that. I also think we’d be better off going back to the old system of sending fewer to Uni and the state funding it.

    But, like with the WASPI women, they put up the least sympathetic people to advocate their cause and, in this case, they never propose a viable solution.
    As long as I have posted on here I have argued against the current system but also not for the old system. We do need less institutions, some reduction in those going to university, and less nonsense courses / more focus on STEM, but the big change is more of a mix between full time and part time, basically getting away from this idea that basically everybody at 18 going to uni does so via moving away from home to study full time for 3-4 years. Most European countries don't do this.

    If you aren't going back to uni vs poly, then the more vocational courses, it is only logical that the vocational ones mix work with study.
    Which is what my apprenticeship was. It was great. A mix of work and study. Worked really well and I ended up'with a decent career from it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,767

    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    Starmer is going to be trapped in the worst of both worlds. They can't do a big cover it up as their MPs revolted and they can't do a massive data dump all the docs and take the hit immediately because the plod, while there will be constant leaks and off the record briefings.
    If Starmer resigned, would the enquiry need to be public?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,428
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    Could be a full-length TV series. The Mandelorian.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835
    edited 10:10PM

    Is Mandelson allowed to leak all of the messages sent to him?

    It will be interesting how Mandy reacts to Starmer I hardly knew that Mandelson bloke, don't even know his first name.....
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 538
    Andy_JS said:

    Fightback from Ireland, two tries in quick succession.

    Farrell out!
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,306
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    One can only speculate but my guess is that the US Government would prefer the lid to be kept on the Mandy affair as much as possible.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,819
    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,358

    Is Mandelson allowed to leak all of the messages sent to him?

    Ironically, the Labour party is probably being saved by Mandelson's deep sense of loyalty towards it.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454
    It's rather come to something when the Prime Minister's last line of defence is "I'm a gullible idiot"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    So be it.
    The UK cringe towards the administration is embarrassing, and IMO unnecessary.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,657

    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
    Have tickets for France v England. On that form, may not be a happy excursion....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,674
    isam said:

    Apart from the Liz Truss market crash, and the Rwanda scheme being shelved, what difference would it have made had Boris never stepped down as PM?

    Reform would never have got 14% at the last GE, Farage would never have returned and LOTO Rishi Sunak would now be 20%+ ahead of Labour in the polls?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,819

    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
    Have tickets for France v England. On that form, may not be a happy excursion....
    Don’t write off England. Eleven on the spin and took NZ and Aus apart in the autumn. Should be a good game.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,994
    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,657

    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
    Have tickets for France v England. On that form, may not be a happy excursion....
    Don’t write off England. Eleven on the spin and took NZ and Aus apart in the autumn. Should be a good game.
    I'm hoping!
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 245

    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
    Yup - first forty France had such a territory advantage that it was almost a training session for the French.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274
    @chadbourn.bsky.social‬

    The Epstein Files fallout continues well away from America.

    Norway’s economic crime police unit Oekokrim is investigating former prime minister and Nobel Committee chairman Thorbjørn Jagland on suspicion of aggravated corruption based on information revealed in the latest files drop.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,232
    "Stephen Pollard
    Watch out for Kemi Badenoch
    She just keeps getting better" (£)

    https://spectator.com/article/watch-out-for-kemi-badenoch/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,158
    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Jesus Christ.

    They appointed an ambassador who doesn't know when to write 'whose'.

     
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,657

    I love it when my younger colleagues are wibbling on about their student loans.

    It gives an old fart like me a chance to smugly mention the full grant and free university education that I enjoyed back in the 80s.

    Uni made us the smug bastards we are today...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    https://bsky.app/profile/coachfinstock.bsky.social/post/3me5gcoxusc26
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,232
    Quick question: has the drought ended yet, and have the hosepipe bans been lifted?
  • It's rather come to something when the Prime Minister's last line of defence is "I'm a gullible idiot"

    I've just heard that speech from earlier today on R5 Live - he opened with 'I used to be DPP' and moved on to 'I didn't know he was lying'. Desperate stuff.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,767

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,158

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,010
    edited 10:34PM
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Apart from the Liz Truss market crash, and the Rwanda scheme being shelved, what difference would it have made had Boris never stepped down as PM?

    Reform would never have got 14% at the last GE, Farage would never have returned and LOTO Rishi Sunak would now be 20%+ ahead of Labour in the polls?
    No, leadership crises are Shakesperean Tragedies, brought on by the character faults of the individual concerned. If it wasn't Pincher then Johnson would have gone because of some other lie. If Truss hadn't gone because of her KamiKwasi budget it would have been for some other bit of hubristic lunacy. Same goes for Starmer too, if Mandelson doesn't get him some other bit of inexplicable handfistedness will.

    The only difference to Shakespeare is that in our hyperactive world it all happens at the speed of TikTok rather than a leisurely 3 hour play, and with less beautiful prose.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,835

    It's rather come to something when the Prime Minister's last line of defence is "I'm a gullible idiot"

    I've just heard that speech from earlier today on R5 Live - he opened with 'I used to be DPP' and moved on to 'I didn't know he was lying'. Desperate stuff.
    Another example of failing upwards?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454

    It's rather come to something when the Prime Minister's last line of defence is "I'm a gullible idiot"

    According to google and its AI, “it’s rather come to something” is an original phrasing which I just invented

    I’m somewhat astonished, and quite pleased, by this
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,358
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Jesus Christ.

    They appointed an ambassador who doesn't know when to write 'whose'.

     
    Maybe he intended to call Włodzimierz Czarzasty despicable.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274
    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    @alastairmeeks.bsky.social‬

    Bitcoin is suffering quite the rout today.

    Interesting question what the correct value is of an asset whose primary use case is money laundering.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,767
    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Ah, I see, I thought it was purely based on the number of coins in circulation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,010

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    I think the energy cost of a mined Bitcoin is currently about $90k.

    Which is a criminal waste of energy. The sooner the whole pyramid scheme collapses the better, not least for the planet.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,180
    edited 10:42PM
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    So be it.
    The UK cringe towards the administration is embarrassing, and IMO unnecessary.
    I would be very happy for the UK to create a new Baltic/Nordic/North Sea alliance where together we close off the north as a route out for Russia, a very strong military on land and sea and frankly tell everyone to fuck off. Agree to buy the same kit so everything is interchangeable. The North has theor priorities nailed and we should be part of that.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454
    I like this from Gemini, on us:

    "The PB Factor: On Political Betting, users often employ a "High Victorian" or "disgruntled colonel" tone. Your phrase fits that aesthetic so perfectly that it feels like it should have been said a thousand times before, even if it hasn't."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,505

    Meanwhile, in "all news is local" news, the headline from RTE:

    Cork man Morgan McSweeney is embroiled in a scandal over the appointment of Peter Mandelson as UK Ambassador to the US

    https://bsky.app/profile/news.rte.ie/post/3me4xe6uzp22w

    Probably apocryphal headline in the wonderful Courier: Titanic sinks Dundee man drowned.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,180
    Taz said:

    A decent game of Rugby to start the tournament. But WTF is it with these sodding ads.

    Do I not like them.

    I really had no problem with those ads. There were the two agreed 20s per half during the nonsense whilst they were setting scrums that lost nothing from the game apart from the ref talking to some human bison combos. If it means that a channel can pay the money to keep the 6N free to air then it’s the tiniest price to pay.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,006
    isam said:

    Apart from the Liz Truss market crash, and the Rwanda scheme being shelved, what difference would it have made had Boris never stepped down as PM?

    How could he have remained PM in the circumstances or are you assuming the business with Pincher never happened?

    Even if it hadn't, the by election results were awful and the Partygate report would still have been damning.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 993
    edited 10:47PM
    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Yes, BUT there is an interesting theoretical caveat. The difficulty doesn't change completely dynamically - it changes every something something blocks which currently equates to roughly every two weeks.

    So if it really turbo super mega collapsed then you can at least theoretically end up with a situation where all the big miners shutdown and well, then is the end of bitcoin because without them those blocks ain't getting solved for months.

    Hard to see that happening but given there's only a few huge miners and they all have precarious financials, it's not impossible, and I would be rather tumescent if this were the case.

    As it is, they'll currently be losing money on everything they're minding, in USD terms - but of course can wear this for a fortnight.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,994
    95% - 100% chance of rain for almost the next 24 hours for my bit of the world.

    Jeez.

    Climate change is of course a hoax.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,772
    edited 10:54PM

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Yes, BUT there is an interesting theoretical caveat. The difficulty doesn't change completely dynamically - it changes every something something blocks which currently equates to roughly every two weeks.

    So if it really turbo super mega collapsed then you can at least theoretically end up with a situation where all the big miners shutdown and well, then is the end of bitcoin because without them those blocks ain't getting solved for months.

    Hard to see that happening but given there's only a few huge miners and they all have precarious financials, it's not impossible, and I would be rather tumescent if this were the case.

    As it is, they'll currently be losing money on everything they're minding, in USD terms - but of course can wear this for a fortnight.
    What are the implications for the world if Bitcoin collapaes?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454
    Peter Mandelson needs patrolmen
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,994
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Yes, BUT there is an interesting theoretical caveat. The difficulty doesn't change completely dynamically - it changes every something something blocks which currently equates to roughly every two weeks.

    So if it really turbo super mega collapsed then you can at least theoretically end up with a situation where all the big miners shutdown and well, then is the end of bitcoin because without them those blocks ain't getting solved for months.

    Hard to see that happening but given there's only a few huge miners and they all have precarious financials, it's not impossible, and I would be rather tumescent if this were the case.

    As it is, they'll currently be losing money on everything they're minding, in USD terms - but of course can wear this for a fortnight.
    What are the implications for the world of Bitcoin collapaes.
    No one knows.

    That's a major part of the problem of all this hype around basically digital tulips.



  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,158
    Foxy said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    I think the energy cost of a mined Bitcoin is currently about $90k.

    Which is a criminal waste of energy. The sooner the whole pyramid scheme collapses the better, not least for the planet.
    Yes. But with a few exceptions:

    (1) The energy is entirely thrown off as heat. If you are mining Bitcoin in a place which needs heating anyway, then it's just like having a space heater.
    (2) If you have trapped energy -say the grid is at capacity and your wind farm is still generating power, it's just not being taken away- then you might as well use it to 'mine crypto'.

    That said, crypto mostly just raises energy prices for normal people and worsens global warming. On the positive side, the increased energy demand (and prices) have jumpstarted solar.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,985
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    EXCL:

    British officials braced for the release of Mandelson's messages as ambassador, which they fear could torpedo Starmer's relationship with Trump

    One said there is “lots which could be damaging” and “he used to download his thoughts in real time.”

    In a memo seen by @POLITICOEurope FCDO permanent secretary Oliver Robbins wrote to all departmental staff Wednesday night to reassure them over the “anxiety” caused by the whole affair.

    He asked civil servants approached about communications to refer all requests to his office.

    Officials believe the Intelligence and Security Committee will only sift out information that could jeopardise national security, rather than cause embarrassment.

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/2019476949266051421?s=20

    Back in September, Mandelson said himself there would be lots more embarrassing stuff to come out, doesn’t the government read the news?
    It's full of depressing stuff, I'd avoid it if I were them, especially as it often makes them look bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shots fired.
    Poland isn't doing poodle, but the US ambassador continues with the asshole schtick.

    Mr.Ambassador Rose, allies should respect, not lecture, each other. At least this is how we, here in Poland, understand partnership.

    Panie Ambasadorze Rose, sojusznicy powinni się szanować, a nie pouczać. Przynajmniej tak w Polsce rozumiemy partnerstwo.

    https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/2019437938350989348

    Dear Mr. Prime Minister — I’m assuming your thoughtful and well-articulated message was sent to me by mistake, because surely you intended it for the Speaker of the Sejm, Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who’s despicable, disrespectful and insulting comments about President Trump @POTUS were so potentially damaging to your government.

    Mr. Prime Minister, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for your lifetime of bold leadership and for your decades of contributions that strengthened the U.S.–Poland relationship. You Sir have truly been a model ally and great friend of the United States.

    And I know you agree that insulting and degrading the @realDonaldTrump President of the United States— the greatest friend Poland has ever had in the White House, is the last thing any Polish leader should do.

    As I’m sure you also know, I will always defend my President without hesitation, exception or apology.

    https://x.com/USAmbPoland/status/2019456359880650905

    Jesus Christ.

    They appointed an ambassador who doesn't know when to write 'whose'.

     
    He is apparently an author and journalist.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Rose

    And until recently, relatively popular in Poland.

    Perhaps he's just discovered Żubrówka.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,985

    I like this from Gemini, on us:

    "The PB Factor: On Political Betting, users often employ a "High Victorian" or "disgruntled colonel" tone. Your phrase fits that aesthetic so perfectly that it feels like it should have been said a thousand times before, even if it hasn't."

    How dare you, my tone is always 'slightly peeved smug bureaucrat'.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,166
    edited 11:01PM
    I've just come back from an evening out. Can someone help me? How many FoN poll posts have we had this evening. At least three. Any more?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,013

    I love it when my younger colleagues are wibbling on about their student loans.

    It gives an old fart like me a chance to smugly mention the full grant and free university education that I enjoyed back in the 80s.

    You see, Maggi, did the right thing by you in the 80s! :D

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,158
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    @alastairmeeks.bsky.social‬

    Bitcoin is suffering quite the rout today.

    Interesting question what the correct value is of an asset whose primary use case is money laundering.
    It is worth noting that the old 'main use' for Bitcoin - i.e. buying illegal drugs off the dark web - is now almost entirely done with Monero.

    Monero, it should also be noted: (1) does not require vast energy to mine (because it was designed around avoiding the issues that plagued BTC), and (2) has much greater throughput too - transactions clear in minutes, not hours.

    In other words, if I were to pick one Crypto, it would be Monero, with Ethereum as my number two.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569

    Cookie said:

    That was possibly the beat rugby I've ever seen a Northern Hemisphere team play.

    England vs NZ in 2002, down to 13 on the try line and still won. Proper rugby.

    France are very hot right now, but Ireland are way off the pace. They even look slow.
    France when they beat NZ in the RWC. Many years ago. Simply amazing game.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,454

    Peter Mandelson needs patrolmen

    This scores high in the best political anagrams I've found
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274
    ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104

    It's rather come to something when the Prime Minister's last line of defence is "I'm a gullible idiot"

    I've just heard that speech from earlier today on R5 Live - he opened with 'I used to be DPP' and moved on to 'I didn't know he was lying'. Desperate stuff.
    Another example of failing upwards?
    Most PMs do, I think ?
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 993
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Yes, BUT there is an interesting theoretical caveat. The difficulty doesn't change completely dynamically - it changes every something something blocks which currently equates to roughly every two weeks.

    So if it really turbo super mega collapsed then you can at least theoretically end up with a situation where all the big miners shutdown and well, then is the end of bitcoin because without them those blocks ain't getting solved for months.

    Hard to see that happening but given there's only a few huge miners and they all have precarious financials, it's not impossible, and I would be rather tumescent if this were the case.

    As it is, they'll currently be losing money on everything they're minding, in USD terms - but of course can wear this for a fortnight.
    What are the implications for the world if Bitcoin collapaes?
    Temporary increase in massive hilarity, I guess.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,889
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    I think the energy cost of a mined Bitcoin is currently about $90k.

    Which is a criminal waste of energy. The sooner the whole pyramid scheme collapses the better, not least for the planet.
    Yes. But with a few exceptions:

    (1) The energy is entirely thrown off as heat. If you are mining Bitcoin in a place which needs heating anyway, then it's just like having a space heater.
    (2) If you have trapped energy -say the grid is at capacity and your wind farm is still generating power, it's just not being taken away- then you might as well use it to 'mine crypto'.

    That said, crypto mostly just raises energy prices for normal people and worsens global warming. On the positive side, the increased energy demand (and prices) have jumpstarted solar.
    Just gonna take exception to "crypto" in this sentence. No modern cryptocurrency uses the energy-wasting system that Bitcoin does. This problem was solved years ago. It's only used still used by Bitcoin because it's users created a primitive religion around Satoshi's proof-of-concept.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,971
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    But Starmer isn't.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,569

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    Yes, BUT there is an interesting theoretical caveat. The difficulty doesn't change completely dynamically - it changes every something something blocks which currently equates to roughly every two weeks.

    So if it really turbo super mega collapsed then you can at least theoretically end up with a situation where all the big miners shutdown and well, then is the end of bitcoin because without them those blocks ain't getting solved for months.

    Hard to see that happening but given there's only a few huge miners and they all have precarious financials, it's not impossible, and I would be rather tumescent if this were the case.

    As it is, they'll currently be losing money on everything they're minding, in USD terms - but of course can wear this for a fortnight.
    What are the implications for the world of Bitcoin collapaes.
    No one knows.

    That's a major part of the problem of all this hype around basically digital tulips.



    Well for starters Microstrategy would be screwed.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,358
    edited 11:09PM
    Scott_xP said:

    Rayner: I'm ready to go

    She's a Republican?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgffRW1fKDk
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 584
    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it looks like Kemi Badenoch's presser this morning was held in the National Liberal Club. Weird.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 993
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    Difficulty changes according to the number of miners.

    It's why even the most esoteric of coins are still mined/verified/etc.
    @alastairmeeks.bsky.social‬

    Bitcoin is suffering quite the rout today.

    Interesting question what the correct value is of an asset whose primary use case is money laundering.
    It is worth noting that the old 'main use' for Bitcoin - i.e. buying illegal drugs off the dark web - is now almost entirely done with Monero.

    Monero, it should also be noted: (1) does not require vast energy to mine (because it was designed around avoiding the issues that plagued BTC), and (2) has much greater throughput too - transactions clear in minutes, not hours.

    In other words, if I were to pick one Crypto, it would be Monero, with Ethereum as my number two.
    Note though that it doesn't make a great deal of sense to buy Monero speculatively because there's not a finite supply. Essentially a fixed amount is minted continually. With decreasing global population growth and relatively stable drug consumption (both of these in order of magnitude terms), as well as like you say it already being the standard for dark web usage atm it's hard to see why it should change significantly. This may well make it a nice thing to be a trader of, idk.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,013
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Go Ange! :D
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,166
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The Daily Mail. The Labour Left's conduit of choice.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,274
    @pickardje.bsky.social‬

    Exclusive:

    Barclays is first client to cut ties with Epstein-linked lobbying firm Global Counsel

    https://bsky.app/profile/pickardje.bsky.social/post/3me5j4ximhc2l
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,104
    .
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Mohamed A. El-Erian
    @elerianm
    ·
    1h

    Quick market update:
    As forced liquidations continue and new margin calls are issued, Bitcoin prices have now plummeted 25% this week alone.
    The scale and disorderly nature of the sell-off are spilling to crypto-adjacent assets and also beyond.
    #markets #crypto #bitcoin

    https://x.com/elerianm/status/2019516744977772768

    What is the cheapest computing cost of a bitcoin these days?

    What happens if there's no incentive to run any calculations? Zero liquidity and zero value?
    I think the energy cost of a mined Bitcoin is currently about $90k.

    Which is a criminal waste of energy. The sooner the whole pyramid scheme collapses the better, not least for the planet.
    Yes. But with a few exceptions:

    (1) The energy is entirely thrown off as heat. If you are mining Bitcoin in a place which needs heating anyway, then it's just like having a space heater.
    (2) If you have trapped energy -say the grid is at capacity and your wind farm is still generating power, it's just not being taken away- then you might as well use it to 'mine crypto'.

    That said, crypto mostly just raises energy prices for normal people and worsens global warming. On the positive side, the increased energy demand (and prices) have jumpstarted solar.
    But there are now very large and growing competing demands for the marginal kWh for other forms of computing.

    On the other side of the coin (sorry) there's also illicit/stolen computing time where the costs fall on someone else.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,255

    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it looks like Kemi Badenoch's presser this morning was held in the National Liberal Club. Weird.

    It was actually held in one of the function rooms of the Royal Horseguards Hotel. It used to be the Gladstone Library of the NLC until they had to sell it off. Nigel Farage is rather fond of using it. The NLC certainly wouldn't allow them in their own premises.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,948
    edited 11:27PM

    Chagos bill pulled again

    A good way to hole Starmer below the high tide line if it went ahead?
    How many holed below the waterline events does one Prime Minister need to experience before he sinks?

    I think he needs to go now.
    One interesting snippet from my Chagos research. One example of what happened under the Conservative 14 years in power, exploring and negotiating the inherent problems in the Chagos situation throughout those 14 years, the resettlement of Chagossians had finally been agreed in 2023 in the 11 rounds of top level negotiations the Conservative Party had negotiating this deal, but in January 2024 UK went back on that agreement. This manoeuvre in January 2024 from Cameron is interesting - because Cameron had, what they call in cop shows, “previous” on blocking return of Chagossians.

    In a key earlier attempt to keep this dispute out of the international courts, Prime Minister Cameron purchased an independent report if return of Chagossians was feasible and could be done. The report said yes, return of Chagossians is feasible. But the moment Cameron decided in 2016 not to go further with this, is the moment it created certainty of UK being taken into the courts.

    Although surrender of sovereignty stands out as most controversial in the deal, the arguments around the of return of Chagossians has played a crucial role over more than half a century, in getting us to where it is today. And on this particular element of it all, I’m not at all convinced it’s all over.
    Right, so after some 'research' you now acknowledge that Cameron parked the deal, which is exactly what I said happened - a statement that you were posting infantile rolleyes smilies about earlier.
    No. Cameron’s DID NOT PARK THE DEAL. Quite the opposite.

    There was never a freeze on negotiating, never a pause on negotiating, there was a slowing of momentum on reaching a deal before General Election, but rounds of negotiating actually carried on right up to the 2024 General Election, 11 rounds under the Conservatives leaving so much of the deal we see today already agreed, so much plan and agreement already in place, the incoming government only needed two further rounds of talks before everything was settled by 3rd Oct 2024.

    Apart from issue of resettlement, that had been agreed, but in 2024 Cameron ripped that agreement up. I don’t know if the chapter was simply un-ripped up, or re-negotiated final deal.

    The key bit of my argument, an agreement ceding Chagos sovereignty in exchange for a long-term lease of the military base, this was an agreed part of the plan the incoming UK government INHERITED.

    Until you prove me wrong, Labour inherited a plan agreed from the 11 rounds of negotiation under the Conservatives, for a 99-year lease of Diego Garcia after ceding sovereignty. What Labour inherited was called Established "Plan A": containing and describing the agreement for a 99-year lease of Diego Garcia while ceding sovereignty.
    There was never a freeze on negotiating, never a pause on negotiating, there was a slowing of momentum

    Right OK, glad we got that straightened out.
    It’s good we are back on the same page. 🙂

    Cameron never put a freeze on negotiating, never a pause on negotiating. Cameron presided over rounds of negotiating right up to the 2024 General Election, 11 rounds under the Conservatives in all. Labour inherited a plan agreed from the 11 rounds of negotiation under the Conservatives, for a 99-year lease of Diego Garcia after ceding sovereignty. What Labour inherited was called Established "Plan A": containing and describing the agreement for a 99-year lease of Diego Garcia while ceding sovereignty. It was basically done, two months later it was on Biden’s desk.

    Which makes the Conservative Party position now all the more bizarre. When this truth is more widely known, all the Conservatives can say is - we didn’t sign anything! We did not surrender the Chagos!

    What was actually going on under Cameron’s time as Foreign Sec, a general election was coming and transferring sovereignty for a lease, and allowing return of Chagossians, was going to be a difficult sell - hence, certainly with the tacit approval of the US and India, carry on negotiating rather than walk away from negotiation table {in eyes of world}, but tactically slow the negotiations down, so it becomes a matter for other side of the election.

    In negotiating reality, the deal we have today, or something almost like this, could have been signed by the UK government in 2023. Cameron may have rowed back the agreed bit of plan for resettlement, but he didn’t rip up the planned lease back, he bequeathed it to the next government still in the plan.

    You have all the freedom to say you don’t believe a word of this account, because this sounds so outlandish - the Conservative Party certainly don’t explain it like I do for sure. Apart from me, who does?

    But if you want to to say - as someone said yesterday - my argument is not coherent, just a collection of tangential to irrelevant facts and suppositions, you have to take that up with my resources, referencing across all them gave me the insight. Here are some links, starting with an actual written statement in Parliament, and finishing with exactly where it’s at today.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-11-03/hcws354

    https://lexpress.mu/s/what-camerons-u-turn-on-resettlement-means-531313

    https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/10/uk-must-focus-how-chagos-decision-implemented-gain-its-benefits-and-minimize-risks

    https://politicsuk.com/news/the-chagos-deal-a-factual-breakdown/

    https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/01/uk-ratification-chagos-archipelago-treaty-will-not-violate-international-law
    Sorry, we're not on the same page, that was sarcasm highlighting your rhetorical contortions - I suppose I should have used a rolleyes smilie.

    Most of the sources you've provided are indeed irrelevant, they contain things that I've never disputed.

    Where you've come really unstuck is that more or less all of your punchier claims come from a single article by 'Charlie Bealby' (must be an established journalist - he has 42 Twitter followers), whose 'Factual Breakdown' (always a bit of a red flag that you're getting an opinion piece when the word 'factual' begins the headline) seems to be a work of his own imagination.

    The "11 rounds of negotiations" piece comes from an unnamed Labour briefing to the London Economic that is totally unverifiable but also calls them 'failed' negotiations' - which doesn't really support your notion that the final deal was a Tory one - it supports my argument that Starmer was prepared to pony up the cash when the Tories, even Cleverly, were not. I think most sensible British people would have liked them to carry on failing.

    For this part:

    These talks were continued and refined under Lord Cameron’s tenure as Foreign Secretary. The final round of Tory-led negotiations took place just weeks before the 2024 general election. By the time the government changed hands, the framework for ceding sovereignty in exchange for a long-term lease of the military base was already the established “Plan A” for the British state.

    Ben doesn't offer any form of back up at all. He links to the October 2024 announcement, presumably expecting (rightly in your case) that most would not enquire further.

    Easy to get taken in by a semi professional opinion piece with lots of links and stuff - we have all been there.
    Okay. Returning if we may, to your assertion my understanding of 11 rounds of talks between Oct 22 and Spring 24 was because I have been naive enough to be duped by just the one source, an unreliable fantasist, and should rightly feel embarrassed.

    I now have some back up support on this from several other sources, that you may, by all means also call these unreliable fantasists, out to dupe and embarrass us, if we should believe what they are telling us

    Rounds of negotiation held November 22, January and February 23,

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-03-17/hcws645#:~:text=Braintree-,Statement,agreement in the coming months.

    Further rounds of negotiation occurred March, 2 to 3 June 2023 and 31 July to 1 August 2023.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-09-14/hcws1029

    in September 2023, additionally at the G20 in Delhi

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-meeting-with-prime-minister-jugnauth-of-mauritius-9-september-2023

    And what better than from Lord Cameron - who apparently froze all this so none of this is happening - himself in 2024
    this Negotiation thing still going on throughout 2023 and into 2024 in questions 691, 692, 693 and 694?
    “You will be aware that negotiations on future sovereignty have been going on between London and Port Louis for just over a year now”
    “Yes. There is a negotiation ongoing.”

    https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/14047/html/

    Lucky, dear friend - are you still saying I’m wrong? Or are you saying yes - the Conservatives spent 2 years negotiating the frame work agreement “Plan A” and left it for Labour to sign and own?
    Why would the Tories do that? It’s that it’s the most hugely unpopular impossible to sell treaty ever, is it?
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 584
    Stereodog said:

    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it looks like Kemi Badenoch's presser this morning was held in the National Liberal Club. Weird.

    It was actually held in one of the function rooms of the Royal Horseguards Hotel. It used to be the Gladstone Library of the NLC until they had to sell it off. Nigel Farage is rather fond of using it. The NLC certainly wouldn't allow them in their own premises.
    Thanks for the clarification.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,889
    Nigelb said:


    On the other side of the coin (sorry) there's also illicit/stolen computing time where the costs fall on someone else.

    This was briefly a thing but it's not any more. You can't mine bitcoins with stolen computing time because you need specialized hardware to do anything meaningful, and the other minor proof-of-work coins are pretty much dead (because proof-of-work is fucking stupid).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,045
    Foxy said:

    If the French fought wars like they do this rugby they might actually get somewhere.

    I loved being a rugby fan in the south of France. Their fandom is on another level. I got asked about Le Crunch as soon as some people realised that I was English
    Tbf, the way they sing La Marseillaise is incredible.
    Like any True Brit it Gauls me. The French have the worlds best national anthem.
    Russia must be a contender, and Germany too but the old words were better. But GSTK can be rescued. The problem is it is played as a durge. Played slightly faster, it's not a bad tune. Here is a 40-second video with five anthems to the tune of GSTK.
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FM-UZh4Dhnw

    And here is 30 seconds of Mr Burns in The Simpsons
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L683vszJ7Fo

    Australia is not bad either, though its words are even more banal than ours. Here is 40 seconds of Matilda in Home and Away.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSl6OxAmIyY

    The other problem with GSTK is the most significant line is buried in the second verse which is hardly ever sung: May he defend our laws / And ever give us cause...

    This is our equivalent of the American constitution's We, the people. May he defend our laws – not God's laws or the King's laws, but our laws – the common law and laws past by our representatives in parliament.


  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,255

    Stereodog said:

    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it looks like Kemi Badenoch's presser this morning was held in the National Liberal Club. Weird.

    It was actually held in one of the function rooms of the Royal Horseguards Hotel. It used to be the Gladstone Library of the NLC until they had to sell it off. Nigel Farage is rather fond of using it. The NLC certainly wouldn't allow them in their own premises.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    The one time on PB that I am truly knowledgeable :smile:
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,740

    Foxy said:

    If the French fought wars like they do this rugby they might actually get somewhere.

    I loved being a rugby fan in the south of France. Their fandom is on another level. I got asked about Le Crunch as soon as some people realised that I was English
    Tbf, the way they sing La Marseillaise is incredible.
    Like any True Brit it Gauls me. The French have the worlds best national anthem.
    Russia must be a contender, and Germany too but the old words were better. But GSTK can be rescued. The problem is it is played as a durge. Played slightly faster, it's not a bad tune. Here is a 40-second video with five anthems to the tune of GSTK.
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FM-UZh4Dhnw

    And here is 30 seconds of Mr Burns in The Simpsons
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L683vszJ7Fo

    Australia is not bad either, though its words are even more banal than ours. Here is 40 seconds of Matilda in Home and Away.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSl6OxAmIyY

    The other problem with GSTK is the most significant line is buried in the second verse which is hardly ever sung: May he defend our laws / And ever give us cause...

    This is our equivalent of the American constitution's We, the people. May he defend our laws – not God's laws or the King's laws, but our laws – the common law and laws past by our representatives in parliament.


    Ah, the old national anthem discussion.
    Has to be Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau.
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