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I think the value might be with the Greens – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,903
edited 7:49AM in General
I think the value might be with the Greens – politicalbetting.com

Who will win the upcoming by-election in Gorton and Denton? (Must take place in 2026)Labour – 1/2Reform UK – 15/8Greens – 6/1Lib Dems – 100/1Conservatives – 100/1https://t.co/nakHgF38Xb

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037
    Second!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,415
    IanB2 said:

    Second!

    I think first loser is the more appropriate term.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037
    edited 8:02AM
    I’m already on the Greens with Ladbrokes, on the back of stories that Burnham will be stopped from standing, and the clear evidence of anti-Reform tactical voting in other contests. The other rumour, about Galloway standing, would hit the greens, peeling away at least some of the Muslim vote, but if he’s abroad it’s not obvious he’s either able or willing to stand?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second!

    I think first loser is the more appropriate term.
    Nah; you take the media exposure, I will take the medal that has risen the most in value last year
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 921
    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    I'm not so sure. In terms of party management, I suspect Starmer wishes he'd won a smaller a majority at the GE and the last thing he needs is a prominent backbencher around whom the grievances against his Government can coalesce.

    Polanski in parliament, OTOH, brings a bigger platform to the Greens but also more scrutiny and provides Labour more opportunity to kick against the Greens.

    Best for Starmer is, of course, Burnham stands but loses.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,344
    edited 8:07AM
    Given the option between Burnham in Parliament or Polanski - the Labour Party as a whole (and Labour MPs chances of being elected at the next election) would be better off with Burnham there

    Polanski will give voters options and line the Greens up as the next None of the previously tried (and failed) option after Reform
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,415
    Unpopular said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    I'm not so sure. In terms of party management, I suspect Starmer wishes he'd won a smaller a majority at the GE and the last thing he needs is a prominent backbencher around whom the grievances against his Government can coalesce.

    Polanski in parliament, OTOH, brings a bigger platform to the Greens but also more scrutiny and provides Labour more opportunity to kick against the Greens.

    Best for Starmer is, of course, Burnham stands but loses.
    Burnham is a potential threat to the leadership, of course, but Polanski and the Greens are a strategic threat to Labour as the party of the left, much more serious than the joke that is Your Party (or whatever they decide to call it). They could end up taking dozens of seats from Labour in the same way as Reform is threatening to do from the Tories. I find their platform positively irritating in its stupidity but there is no doubt that Polanski has something, and what he has contrasts painfully with the boring, dull and occasionally tiresome Starmer. Labour should be taking this very seriously.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826
    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    Yes, although Polanski (or another Green or Reform type) replacing Burnham as Mayor would not be good either.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,296
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second!

    I think first loser is the more appropriate term.
    As the ancient and wise proverb tells us, “first the worst, second the best”
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037
    DavidL said:

    Unpopular said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    I'm not so sure. In terms of party management, I suspect Starmer wishes he'd won a smaller a majority at the GE and the last thing he needs is a prominent backbencher around whom the grievances against his Government can coalesce.

    Polanski in parliament, OTOH, brings a bigger platform to the Greens but also more scrutiny and provides Labour more opportunity to kick against the Greens.

    Best for Starmer is, of course, Burnham stands but loses.
    Burnham is a potential threat to the leadership, of course, but Polanski and the Greens are a strategic threat to Labour as the party of the left, much more serious than the joke that is Your Party (or whatever they decide to call it). They could end up taking dozens of seats from Labour in the same way as Reform is threatening to do from the Tories. I find their platform positively irritating in its stupidity but there is no doubt that Polanski has something, and what he has contrasts painfully with the boring, dull and occasionally tiresome Starmer. Labour should be taking this very seriously.
    As I said yesterday, a dramatic by-election win would turbo-charge their campaign for May in London and the big cities, and with Burnham blocked giving Labour members an additional reason to protest by voting for Polanski’s proto-socialist agenda, what’s not to like?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,259
    I'm on the Greens at 11/2.

    I think that's great value.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,818
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Unpopular said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    I'm not so sure. In terms of party management, I suspect Starmer wishes he'd won a smaller a majority at the GE and the last thing he needs is a prominent backbencher around whom the grievances against his Government can coalesce.

    Polanski in parliament, OTOH, brings a bigger platform to the Greens but also more scrutiny and provides Labour more opportunity to kick against the Greens.

    Best for Starmer is, of course, Burnham stands but loses.
    Burnham is a potential threat to the leadership, of course, but Polanski and the Greens are a strategic threat to Labour as the party of the left, much more serious than the joke that is Your Party (or whatever they decide to call it). They could end up taking dozens of seats from Labour in the same way as Reform is threatening to do from the Tories. I find their platform positively irritating in its stupidity but there is no doubt that Polanski has something, and what he has contrasts painfully with the boring, dull and occasionally tiresome Starmer. Labour should be taking this very seriously.
    As I said yesterday, a dramatic by-election win would turbo-charge their campaign for May in London and the big cities, and with Burnham blocked giving Labour members an additional reason to protest by voting for Polanski’s proto-socialist agenda, what’s not to like?
    I think Labour's plan is to hold the by-election on the same day as the locals (well what's left of them.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,889
    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,964
    As ever, value is different from thinking who is most likely to win - I agree with TSE here that the betting value is on Green, though there are significant variables - Nowcasting WPB and others has got to something of a black art, and I think 27% is surely something of a ceiling value for Reform here. The main red walls here are those delineating the front gardens of the quite elegant red brick period homes and tolerably smart terraces on the Denton/Reddish border.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,201
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,259
    DavidL said:

    Morning all.

    And its a first. I want to thank the support I get from my wife, my family and friends. I couldn't have done it without them.

    I think Polanski in Parliament would be very bad new for Starmer. If it takes Burnham to stop him he should be cheering him on.

    I think Starmer will trade a problem in 3 years time for survival today.

    Also, there are already Greens in parliament.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,189
    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    I agree with his diagnosis but simply attacking the oppo without a forward looking vision isn’t going to win. It turns into an argument about who fucked up rather than how to fix what’s fucked up. This is for the faithful
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,247
    I saw the Wacky Zacky party political broadcast the other day. He came across very well, espousing a populist leftwing agenda.

    Just a pity that environmentalism doesn't get a look in with today's Green Party.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,247
    HYUFD said:

    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform

    Surely Evertonians are classed as an ethnic minority in Manchester?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    Trolling is what passes for politics these days
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,621
    Yes, the value is definitely with green. For me they are favourites.
    "Popular *Greater* Manchester mqyor" means nothing if you decide you're going to leave that job for another one. Popular footballers don't tend to remain popular when they leave for another job
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,876
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,606
    I think it’s going to be a free for all, if Burnham doesn’t stand.

    If Burnham stands, I think he wins. Relatively comfortably.

    If he doesn’t I could see each of Reform, Labour or the Greens nabbing it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,818
    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    It was Thatcher's brilliance that allowed her to name it after one of Shakespeare's best lines (which is saying something.)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,964
    edited 8:38AM
    HYUFD said:

    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform

    The Gorton constituency as at 2016 took in a lot more of the working class and multiethnic areas directly south of Manchester. I don't think the whole nature of the Manchester part of the constituency has changed that radically but, for instance, ethnic minority Brexit voters don't necessarily translate into Reform voters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,189
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,818
    Foxy said:

    I see Consumer confidence is slowly improving, though has been negative for ten years*:

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3md2xpol6ld2e

    And December's retail beat expectations up 0.4% in December.

    * What happened 10 years ago to destry consumer confidence? 🤔

    George Osborne stopped being Chancellor/David Cameron retired.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    Blaming privatisation without mentioning Mrs Thatcher can run and run – see water and trains as prominent and current examples.

    But what is more significant is some on the right are coming round to the view that many of our problems stem from the Thatcher government's measures they used to applaud – right-to-buy; spending (especially defence) cuts; deindustrialisation and over-reliance on a service economy. (Of course, they might blame Thatcher's successors rather than the lady herself, or details rather than principles.)
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,201
    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    I raise you Suez.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,415
    Foxy said:

    I see Consumer confidence is slowly improving, though has been negative for ten years*:

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3md2xpol6ld2e

    And December's retail beat expectations up 0.4% in December.

    * What happened 10 years ago to destry consumer confidence? 🤔

    Much better borrowing figures yesterday as well: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clymd1pj887o

    For the first time, I think, the results are running below the OBR forecast for the year. The damage done by the run up to the budget was horrendous and a completely unenforced error but there is a chance things might just calm down a bit for a while.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,606
    edited 8:41AM
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    Thatcher forged a new consensus. It is no good the Labour Party trying to turn the clock back to those debates, just as it is no good Farage trying to appeal to a mythical Britain of the 1940s and 1950s. A new social contract needs to be forged.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826
    Whether 6/1 is value depends on who will stand. If Burnham does go for it, then probably the reds will shorten and the Greens lengthen.

    We might also consider whether prominent Reform ex-MPs will fancy getting back into Parliament while Farage is building his shadow cabinet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,189
    edited 8:44AM
    Pro_Rata said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform

    The Gorton constituency as at 2016 took in a lot more of the working class and multiethnic areas directly south of Manchester. I don't think the whole nature of the Manchester part of the constituency has changed that radically but, for instance, ethnic minority Brexit voters don't necessarily translate into Reform voters.
    No but Gorton is still majority white working class and if an all BAME Labour shortlist is imposed to keep out Burnham that will boost Reform with them
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    I raise you Suez.
    I’ll meet your Suez and raise you Nationalisation.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,981
    edited 8:43AM
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    It is not going to happen as much as you want it to

    Only yesterday in Davos Reeves rejected a customs union saying Labour now have US, India, and other trade deals and praised our membership of the trans pacific partnership

    I am not saying we should not draw closer which should be the objective but rejoin is far away as ever



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,189
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,201
    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    I raise you Suez.
    I’ll meet your Suez and raise you Nationalisation.
    Do Tories still talk about the post-1945 nationalisations? I don't remember hearing it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,189

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    Blaming privatisation without mentioning Mrs Thatcher can run and run – see water and trains as prominent and current examples.

    But what is more significant is some on the right are coming round to the view that many of our problems stem from the Thatcher government's measures they used to applaud – right-to-buy; spending (especially defence) cuts; deindustrialisation and over-reliance on a service economy. (Of course, they might blame Thatcher's successors rather than the lady herself, or details rather than principles.)
    It was right to buy that made many working class families property owners for the first time. Just the proceeds should have been put into new social housing
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,296
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    I raise you Suez.
    I’ll meet your Suez and raise you Nationalisation.
    Do Tories still talk about the post-1945 nationalisations? I don't remember hearing it.
    I refer you to the answer of the Honourable HYUFD at 8.35 this very morning
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,419
    I'm inclined to agree, and have put a little on this.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,437
    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform

    The Gorton constituency as at 2016 took in a lot more of the working class and multiethnic areas directly south of Manchester. I don't think the whole nature of the Manchester part of the constituency has changed that radically but, for instance, ethnic minority Brexit voters don't necessarily translate into Reform voters.
    No but Gorton is still majority white working class and if an all BAME Labour shortlist is imposed to keep out Burnham that will boost Reform with them
    If Galloway did run then he'd no doubt stir things up to the slight benefit of Reform too. If he stole some Green votes and some Labour votes then I can see that Reform might get close.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,606

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    It is not going to happen as much as you want it to

    Only yesterday in Davos Reeves rejected a customs union saying Labour now have US, India, and other trade deals and praised our membership of the trans pacific partnership

    I am not saying we should not draw closer which should be the objective but rejoin is far away as ever



    I think Labour should certainly articulate what that should be. Rejoin on current terms I agree is a complete non-starter and will cause them no end of troubles. But I do think they need to get to a settled proposition on Europe, and I do think they need to at least sketch the outlines of what they expect there. Is it The Customs Union/A Customs Union? Is it single market or not? It is Europe à la carte? Something completely different? Defence and co-operation pact? Schengen and common border security? It’s all well and good being vague but that’s caused them problems this parliament. They need a mandate for something, even if that something is subject to negotiation.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,842
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    I reckon the move is to have a referendum before the election, with implementation due after. They want to have the referendum while Trump is still in office and come at it as a national security thing. I'd say it's about a 60% chance of going Rejoin. If Rejoin loses Starmer looks like a pathetic failure but the voters kind of think that about him already. If he wins then his stature his enhanced, the centre-left have something to look forward to and a good reason to work together to win, and presumably Farage has to run on ignoring the referendum.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,621

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    It is not going to happen as much as you want it to

    Only yesterday in Davos Reeves rejected a customs union saying Labour now have US, India, and other trade deals and praised our membership of the trans pacific partnership

    I am not saying we should not draw closer which should be the objective but rejoin is far away as ever



    It's not often I agree with Roger about Europe, but I think he has a good point here - I certainly can't quibble with his last sentence.
    Would it stop a catastrophic Labour defeat? My view is that it wouldn't - it may enthuse Roger and those like him, but it will also massively get the vote out for Reform. But on the other hand, Labour are in nothing-to-lose territory.

    As to whether it would be the right thing for Britain or indeed for Europe - well, that's not the point!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,876

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    It is not going to happen as much as you want it to

    Only yesterday in Davos Reeves rejected a customs union saying Labour now have US, India, and other trade deals and praised our membership of the trans pacific partnership

    I am not saying we should not draw closer which should be the objective but rejoin is far away as ever



    Reeves has the political antennae of Ceausescu. She'll be out of a job but more important so will Labour. They have a huge majority abd the ability to do what they like. It's a small window but it's open. Every commentator says Britain is broken because of Brexit. Are they completely tin eared? Pusillanimity will get them nowhere
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    There is a fair amount of truth in that.

    But any amount of framing (and Starmer wouldn't argue with much of that either) doesn't provide solutions.

    Another example of what has "broken Britain" is a chronically inefficient process state.

    Burnham's framing suggests he'd put more, not less reliance on that.

    We need rather more effective pragmatism, and rather less "framing", IMO.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,621

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    I reckon the move is to have a referendum before the election, with implementation due after. They want to have the referendum while Trump is still in office and come at it as a national security thing. I'd say it's about a 60% chance of going Rejoin. If Rejoin loses Starmer looks like a pathetic failure but the voters kind of think that about him already. If he wins then his stature his enhanced, the centre-left have something to look forward to and a good reason to work together to win, and presumably Farage has to run on ignoring the referendum.
    Personally I'm more enthused about this Uk-Canada union which Gardenwalker is putting together. Maybe the Danes and Greenlanders (and Norweigians?) could join that. We could call it Transarctica.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664
    HYUFD said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    Blaming privatisation without mentioning Mrs Thatcher can run and run – see water and trains as prominent and current examples.

    But what is more significant is some on the right are coming round to the view that many of our problems stem from the Thatcher government's measures they used to applaud – right-to-buy; spending (especially defence) cuts; deindustrialisation and over-reliance on a service economy. (Of course, they might blame Thatcher's successors rather than the lady herself, or details rather than principles.)
    It was right to buy that made many working class families property owners for the first time. Just the proceeds should have been put into new social housing
    I'm glad at least one Tory has accepted that.
    About forty years too late, but well done.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037
    Pro_Rata said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Greens certainly have a shot but less so than Remain voting Manchester itself as Gordon was 50% Leave.

    Burnham should hold it as the popular Greater Manchester Mayor. It looks though like Starmer and the NEC will impose an all BAME shortlist to keep out Burnham for the Labour nomination which would benefit Reform

    The Gorton constituency as at 2016 took in a lot more of the working class and multiethnic areas directly south of Manchester. I don't think the whole nature of the Manchester part of the constituency has changed that radically but, for instance, ethnic minority Brexit voters don't necessarily translate into Reform voters.
    Hence Reform not featuring much in Inner London (for example underperforming in recent Camden by-elections).

    They may show in second place for this seat in that ElectionMaps modelling - but no-one knows what assumptions that young guy is using to come up with his predictions, and modelling isn't the same as local polling.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,408
    edited 9:10AM
    Defectors should hold By-Elections, it’s really poor form from Reform that their new MPs aren’t doing so. It’s something Farage insisted on in the past, and has criticised others for not doing. As Sebastian Payne says in this article, they’d probably win anyway, amid huge publicity, so why not?

    When the Tory MP Danny Kruger defected to Reform UK last autumn, he argued that he would “continue to be the MP that I was elected to be at the last election”. His constituents, in other words, would have to lump it. Farage stayed silent.

    In the past week, Robert Jenrick and Andrew Rosindell have followed Kruger’s path in both leaving the Tories for Reform and refusing to countenance a by-election. Rosindell said it would “just annoy people” and be a waste of time. Jenrick said voters in Newark “know what they get with me” and cited his “independent-minded stances” as one of the reasons he held his seat at the last election. For a party howling in outrage at the government’s decision to cancel a bunch of local elections, its MPs are treating democracy somewhat flippantly.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/dbd509d2-6f99-42a8-a14b-27e6f7cb550c?shareToken=beb114f005e357b2a1274ea7198e135b
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,300
    DougSeal said:

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    I’ll remind you of this next time someone brings up the Winter of Discontent
    Go Outdoors. Now is the winter of our discount tent.

    https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/collections/tents-sale
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    You're not allowing for any realpolitik there. The reality is that, if the EU believed we were willing to return for good - Farage's enduring toxic influence on our politics remains the principal obstacle - we could return on terms that suited us.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,842

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    The number of countries that want Britain to join the Euro is zero. They've got enough problems already without adding a country with a weird housing thing going on that's not really into it.

    It's perfectly possible that the application would just get held up forever, and it's also possible that some countries would say they don't think it'll last and they're not going to play the hokey cokey but the Euro wouldn't be the blocker.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,876
    edited 9:24AM
    A poor PPB by Zak in my opinion. I did my first and only one for Paddy A. His first. It was called 'Maggies Broken Britain' We had one of the best copywriters anywhere on the job and it looked very good. Paddy talking to camera intercut with shots of Britain looking like Stalingrad.

    We were all pleased with the result but in retrospect it was the wrong thing to do. Same with Zak. His appeal is his optimism and freshness. He doesn't hate people of different shades. He ridicules people who do. He looks for the best sides of ourselves. Think Mamdani. It works particularly well against the doomsters of Reform. His message is 'We're better than that' and it's a message people like to hear. Just tune into Question Time
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,300
    Off Topic but you know all those bikes that get nicked. Well the DWP have noticed.

    1. This Upper Tribunal appeal, in a nutshell, is about whether a claimant who buys and sells stolen bikes on ‘an industrial scale’ is entitled to income-related employment and support allowance (ESA). More specifically, the questions raised by the appeal are whether, for the purposes of a claim for income-related ESA, (i) the activity of buying and selling stolen bikes counts as ‘work’; and (ii) the moneys received from that activity qualify as ‘income’.

    2. Putting it another way, as did the District Tribunal Judge when giving the Secretary of State permission to appeal to the Upper Tribunal, “these appeals essentially turn on the issue as to whether a person engaged in criminal activity (handling stolen goods) which is fuelled by substance abuse and addiction issues can be said to be self-employed for the purposes of permitted work whilst in receipt of Income Related Employment and Support Allowance.”

    3. The position of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) was that the claimant was still engaged in a trade, albeit an illicit one, and so was to all intents and purposes a self-employed person. Furthermore, the DWP argued, the cash payments he received qualified as ‘income’ under the ESA regime. In short, however, the First-tier Tribunal (FTT) found that the claimant’s criminal activity
    did not amount to ‘work’ and neither did his cash receipts count as ‘income’ under the relevant regulations.


    To be filed under Bureaucracy empire strikes back. They agreed he was self-employed and the income did count for benefit calculation purposes. Not sure of the HMRC's position yet.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6657397916cf36f4d63ebbad/UA_2022_001764_001765_ESA.pdf
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    You're not allowing for any realpolitik there. The reality is that, if the EU believed we were willing to return for good - Farage's enduring toxic influence on our politics remains the principal obstacle - we could return on terms that suited us.
    We'd have them over a barrel, eh?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,300
    edited 9:31AM

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    The number of countries that want Britain to join the Euro is zero. They've got enough problems already without adding a country with a weird housing thing going on that's not really into it.

    It's perfectly possible that the application would just get held up forever, and it's also possible that some countries would say they don't think it'll last and they're not going to play the hokey cokey but the Euro wouldn't be the blocker.
    I think we would go into the candidate process and progress exactly as fast as we demonstrated passing the various milestones.

    Not going the Euro by not actually ever getting round to it is perfectly possible. And within the rules.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    Battlebus said:

    Off Topic but you know all those bikes that get nicked. Well the DWP have noticed.

    1. This Upper Tribunal appeal, in a nutshell, is about whether a claimant who buys and sells stolen bikes on ‘an industrial scale’ is entitled to income-related employment and support allowance (ESA). More specifically, the questions raised by the appeal are whether, for the purposes of a claim for income-related ESA, (i) the activity of buying and selling stolen bikes counts as ‘work’; and (ii) the moneys received from that activity qualify as ‘income’.

    2. Putting it another way, as did the District Tribunal Judge when giving the Secretary of State permission to appeal to the Upper Tribunal, “these appeals essentially turn on the issue as to whether a person engaged in criminal activity (handling stolen goods) which is fuelled by substance abuse and addiction issues can be said to be self-employed for the purposes of permitted work whilst in receipt of Income Related Employment and Support Allowance.”

    3. The position of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) was that the claimant was still engaged in a trade, albeit an illicit one, and so was to all intents and purposes a self-employed person. Furthermore, the DWP argued, the cash payments he received qualified as ‘income’ under the ESA regime. In short, however, the First-tier Tribunal (FTT) found that the claimant’s criminal activity
    did not amount to ‘work’ and neither did his cash receipts count as ‘income’ under the relevant regulations.


    To be filed under Bureaucracy empire strikes back. They agreed he was self-employed and the income did count for benefit calculation purposes. Not sure of the HMRC's position yet.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6657397916cf36f4d63ebbad/UA_2022_001764_001765_ESA.pdf
    It's long been the case, in many countries, that the proceeds of criminal enterprises are considered income. That should pay tax etc.

    Hence Al Capone.

    If you are running a large scale criminal enterprise, you can be done on Employers NI, pensions, minimum wage etc etc..
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,598
    edited 9:37AM

    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    Blaming privatisation without mentioning Mrs Thatcher can run and run – see water and trains as prominent and current examples.

    But what is more significant is some on the right are coming round to the view that many of our problems stem from the Thatcher government's measures they used to applaud – right-to-buy; spending (especially defence) cuts; deindustrialisation and over-reliance on a service economy. (Of course, they might blame Thatcher's successors rather than the lady herself, or details rather than principles.)
    Yes, it is remarkable how much of the British Right are now repudiating Thatcherism. Nigel's a factor here - going around advocating nationalization etc. - but I'm unsure if they're taking their lead from him (and he's just indulging in populist soundbites), or Nigel himself is a symptom of deeper, underlying currents.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,087

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    The number of countries that want Britain to join the Euro is zero. They've got enough problems already without adding a country with a weird housing thing going on that's not really into it.

    It's perfectly possible that the application would just get held up forever, and it's also possible that some countries would say they don't think it'll last and they're not going to play the hokey cokey but the Euro wouldn't be the blocker.
    It would also be in the US and Russian interests to stop the UK from rejoining so Orban might put the blockers on it (and maybe Fico too) and then you get down to the usual EU shenanigans of wanting a pound of flesh from the UK for cooperation even when it’s in the EU’s benefit to cooperate so no doubt the French making silly fishing demands and Spain wanting to change Gibraltar’s status.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,598
    Wow. Donald's comments about British servicemen has left him rather friendless.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,408
    Roger said:

    A poor PPB by Zak in my opinion. I did my first and only one for Paddy A. His first. It was called 'Maggies Broken Britain' We had one of the best copywriters anywhere on the job and it looked very good. Paddy talking to camera intercut with shots of Britain looking like Stalingrad.

    We were all pleased with the result but in retrospect it was the wrong thing to do. Same with Zak. His appeal is his optimism and freshness. He doesn't hate people of different shades. He ridicules people who do. He looks for the best sides of ourselves. Think Mamdani. It works particularly well against the doomsters of Reform. His message is 'We're better than that' and it's a message people like to hear. Just tune into Question Time

    Seemed a bit downbeat and ‘Broken Britain’ . I’d never really seen him or heard him speak before, and he didn’t strike me as a charismatic vote winner in that video.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,736
    edited 9:47AM

    Wow. Donald's comments about British servicemen has left him rather friendless.

    I'm sure Farage will be around soon to explain away Trump's comments as not that offensive really, not if you consider [insert whataboutery here].
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,146

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    2) has absolutely not been mined out.

    Where are the tram systems in every single one of our smaller cities? Where are the integrated bus services? Where is the road building in the north to fill in the gaps between the major cities? Why hasn’t the government run out HS2 to Crewe / Manchester to free up the other lines for commuter rail into Birmingham? etc etc etc.

    Every single city in this country gets poorer economic returns from agglomeration than equivalently sized cities on the continent because the local transport networks are so poor. The only exception to this rule is London & that’s because London is the city with an integrated public transport network run by a single unified authority & is the place that has received the lion’s share of investment over the last fifty years.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    The number of countries that want Britain to join the Euro is zero. They've got enough problems already without adding a country with a weird housing thing going on that's not really into it.

    It's perfectly possible that the application would just get held up forever, and it's also possible that some countries would say they don't think it'll last and they're not going to play the hokey cokey but the Euro wouldn't be the blocker.
    Objectively wrong.
    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52523-western-europeans-would-support-the-uk-rejoining-the-eu
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,462
    @Cookie

    thanks for the message about Radio 6 Depeche Mode item last night - unfortunately, I only just saw the message!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,037

    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    You're not allowing for any realpolitik there. The reality is that, if the EU believed we were willing to return for good - Farage's enduring toxic influence on our politics remains the principal obstacle - we could return on terms that suited us.
    We'd have them over a barrel, eh?
    In the current geopolitical environment, our returning would be of significant mutual benefit, and from the EU's perspective having the UK return after Brexit would be seen as vindication and triumph, and pretty much ensure the EU holds together going forward. That's worth them having. We probably wouldn't get our rebate back, but we'd not have to join the Euro and would be allowed, like Sweden, to sit outside it for as long as we wanted, i.e. for ever.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,320
    Phil said:

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    2) has absolutely not been mined out.

    Where are the tram systems in every single one of our smaller cities? Where are the integrated bus services? Where is the road building in the north to fill in the gaps between the major cities? Why hasn’t the government run out HS2 to Crewe / Manchester to free up the other lines for commuter rail into Birmingham? etc etc etc.

    Every single city in this country gets poorer economic returns from agglomeration than equivalently sized cities on the continent because the local transport networks are so poor. The only exception to this rule is London & that’s because London is the city with an integrated public transport network run by a single unified authority & is the place that has received the lion’s share of investment over the last fifty years.
    Knock a couple of percent off employer national insurance for full-time WFHs and you’ll start to get results before any of those even get to planning.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826
    Ratters said:

    Wow. Donald's comments about British servicemen has left him rather friendless.

    I'm sure Farage will be around soon to explain away Trump's comments as not that offensive really, not if you consider [insert whataboutery here].
    Tbh I've heard different but arguably worse complaints that in Iraq, Afghanistan and even ww2, Americans had to dig British troops out from holes of our own making. And for all that we were in Afghanistan, we stayed about five minutes once America pulled out.

    Speaking of Afghanistan, it was remarked at the time that we were burning through the defence budget firing our stocks of American-made missiles at American-selected targets, and that it would be cheaper to cut out the middleman.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    Phil said:

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    2) has absolutely not been mined out.

    Where are the tram systems in every single one of our smaller cities? Where are the integrated bus services? Where is the road building in the north to fill in the gaps between the major cities? Why hasn’t the government run out HS2 to Crewe / Manchester to free up the other lines for commuter rail into Birmingham? etc etc etc.

    Every single city in this country gets poorer economic returns from agglomeration than equivalently sized cities on the continent because the local transport networks are so poor. The only exception to this rule is London & that’s because London is the city with an integrated public transport network run by a single unified authority & is the place that has received the lion’s share of investment over the last fifty years.
    The problem there is that this would enable you to get faster to the places where building isn't allowed.

    Various parties think the accretion of villages into towns and suburbs must be prevented.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,876
    isam said:

    Roger said:

    A poor PPB by Zak in my opinion. I did my first and only one for Paddy A. His first. It was called 'Maggies Broken Britain' We had one of the best copywriters anywhere on the job and it looked very good. Paddy talking to camera intercut with shots of Britain looking like Stalingrad.

    We were all pleased with the result but in retrospect it was the wrong thing to do. Same with Zak. His appeal is his optimism and freshness. He doesn't hate people of different shades. He ridicules people who do. He looks for the best sides of ourselves. Think Mamdani. It works particularly well against the doomsters of Reform. His message is 'We're better than that' and it's a message people like to hear. Just tune into Question Time

    Seemed a bit downbeat and ‘Broken Britain’ . I’d never really seen him or heard him speak before, and he didn’t strike me as a charismatic vote winner in that video.
    In case people haven't seen it. Posted by Foxy yesterday


    https://bsky.app/profile/greenparty.org.uk/post/3mczv2ixlhq2i
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    Did I say "centre of" the housing crisis ?
    I believe the phrase was "part of the evisceration of local government resources", which is true. So no straw men, please.

    Incidentally, if you rebase you graph to start at 1980, and consider what might have been the case had councils been allowed to keep the proceeds to reinvest in housing, then you might see things slightly differently.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,296
    I see Trump is threatening to invoke NATO article 5 to protect the US southern border from illegal immigration. Perhaps we can do that with the channel??
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    The housing crisis is not just a housing crisis. It creates a spending crisis as benefits go up, and depresses the economy as wages are spent on housing costs (rent or buy) rather than on anything that might create jobs for other people.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,842
    edited 9:57AM
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    If Labour are to win the next election we MUST rejoin the EU. Starmer or Burnham must batter it through. No Referendums. Just a huge parlianentary majority. The full fat version including Schengen. We must put ourselves at the centre of Europe.

    Labour have nothing to lose. They are sleepwalking to possible defeat at the hands of Farage. There is no form of REJOIN that would be a worse fate for this country than that.
    Rejoin plus Euro means zero chance of Labour re election
    Nobody is suggesting the Euro
    Roger is (“…full fat version…”) in the comment HYUFD is replying to!
    The reality of Rejoin is

    1) We would be asked to follow the process that all applicants to the are do. The politics of Europe will not slow a special exemption - too many countries would get upset
    2) So we would be signing up to “full fat” Europe
    3) This means signing up for the Euro. Since this would remove a huge chunk of the mucking around with the economy the politicians love, this would be a matter of
    I) Signing up to the Euro joining process
    II) Never actually meeting he requirements and joining
    The number of countries that want Britain to join the Euro is zero. They've got enough problems already without adding a country with a weird housing thing going on that's not really into it.

    It's perfectly possible that the application would just get held up forever, and it's also possible that some countries would say they don't think it'll last and they're not going to play the hokey cokey but the Euro wouldn't be the blocker.
    Objectively wrong.
    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52523-western-europeans-would-support-the-uk-rejoining-the-eu
    This is a poll of voters not governments, and if you do a poll with "Do you support X" then follow it up with "Would you still support X even if Y" on something the voter hasn't thought very hard about you'll inevitably get a much lower result for the second question than the first even if Y isn't something the voter would have cared about unprompted.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,621

    @Cookie

    thanks for the message about Radio 6 Depeche Mode item last night - unfortunately, I only just saw the message!

    You can still get it on bbc sounds (or through the radio 6 website): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002q7j3. I recommend it - it was a good programme. I'm not a massive DM fan, but I found myself getting more and more into them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142
    Something to consider for Labour's idea of removing jury trial.

    In the original, the Judge system from Judge Dredd was imposed in.... 2027

    I think we should get ahead of this. Insist on British Bikes For British Judges. Also, get Accuracy International to build the Lawgivers.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,495
    Ratters said:

    Wow. Donald's comments about British servicemen has left him rather friendless.

    I'm sure Farage will be around soon to explain away Trump's comments as not that offensive really, not if you consider [insert whataboutery here].
    The comments come from someone who, like (most of) our Services didn't serve in Vietnam.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,826

    I see Trump is threatening to invoke NATO article 5 to protect the US southern border from illegal immigration. Perhaps we can do that with the channel??

    Either that or use binoculars to scan the waves, as was done in the war.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,889
    @davidtwilcock.bsky.social‬

    Farage's willingness to pucker up to Trump is shaping up to be a real electoral problem. Reform's poll lead is already flatlining/ shrinking and Politico @moreincommonuk.bsky.social piece shows it could cost them votes in suburbia. And that was before he decided to slag off UK troops

    Noticeable that Robert Jenrick has already seen which way the wind is blowing on this

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidtwilcock.bsky.social/post/3md3fbtw42c2c
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,142

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    The housing crisis is not just a housing crisis. It creates a spending crisis as benefits go up, and depresses the economy as wages are spent on housing costs (rent or buy) rather than on anything that might create jobs for other people.
    Which is why the housing crisis is... a crisis.

    And the only solution is building more. A lot more.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,382
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Simplistic stuff from Burnham. Pure sloganising.

    There is much to not like about privatisation, but there was very much not to like about the state of state run stuff before the 1980's revolution. But you have to be older generation with a decent memory to remember how bad it could be.

    You can't consider deindustrialisation without also considering the areas of economic activity that grew at the same time. It's like farming which is only a tiny % of GDP but still essential but we have grown rich in other ways. Industry remains essential and we have grown in other ways.

    Austerity: State spending remains, and remained during the so called austerity period, gigantic; as did and does borrowing.

    Brexit: The vote to leave left the future open to parliament to steer. If Burnham's party had focussed on joining with moderates to get a Norway/Swiss type deal, out of the political but in the economic union, things would be different.

  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,073
    edited 10:01AM

    Battlebus said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    1970s nationalised Britain was a basket case, deindustrialisation is global but there are still high skilled manufacturers and industry in the UK and of course Trump was elected in the US to tariff imports especially from China and protect industry. No austerity from this high tax and welfare splurging Labour government. It was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum against the advice of the then Tory PM
    What Burnham’s thesis fails to grasp (and what many on the left also desperately avoid) is that for all the negative consequences of deindustrialisation (a policy of both parties) and the Thatcher reforms - and it is fantasy to suggest that there weren’t negative consequences - they were popular with huge parts of society and, after the turmoil of the 1980s, largely accepted by society at large for the next 20-30 years (depending on whether you think that stops at the GFC or not).

    That's one of the things that got us here.

    "Privatisation is good", for all its successes, meant we had decades of monopoly utilities ripping off customers and failing to invest, before anyone woke up to it.

    Popular council house sales were also part of the evisceration of local government resources.

    The problem with the consensus was not the ideas themselves, but that the consensus served to prevent consideration any of the downsides associated with them.
    In that respect, Thatcherism was as much a brainless ideology as is socialism.
    Ahem



    The idea that Council Houses are the very centre of the housing crisis is.... interesting.
    It's at the centre to the extent that (cost of) Housing Benefit / Housing Element like SEND/Adult Social Care is out of control.
    The problem comes back to "Not enough homes" overall.

    You can create housing by

    1) Building it
    2) Reducing the time and cost of travel to places where there is a surplus of housing

    2) has largely been mined out, for the effected areas of the UK. We either need population reduction (see the more insane Reformat suggestions), or to build enough that the prices drop.

    Council Houses would only answer 1) if the government (local or national) was prepared to

    i) Build council houses and not charge for them - the rent would have to be a fraction of the market rate
    ii) Aggressively evict sub tenants. In London, the proportion of Council Housing that is illegally sublet is staggering.

    There is absolutely no possibility that the Government will exempt itself from the rules and regulations that have resulted in a massive escalation in building costs. Said rules are generally fairly pointless, since there is no effective enforcement.
    An additional factor may be wealth inequality.

    The more unevenly that wealth is distributed, the more the wealthy are able to buy additional and larger properties. This might have the effect of squeezing supply for the less wealthy and thus inflating prices. The corollory of that would be to weaken the effect on prices of building additional housing since it will tend to be snapped up by the rich. It also implies that another way to reduce house prices would be to introduce a more progressive tax regime.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14

    Powerful and much needed framing from Andy Burnham in the Guardian..should be repeated every day by ministers or they will find they are blamed for ‘broken Britain’:
    “If the question at the centre of British politics is “who broke Britain?”, let’s be clear and unequivocal. The four horsemen of Britain’s apocalypse are deindustrialisation, privatisation, austerity and Brexit.
    In my time in politics, there has been a tendency for too many in Labour to accept too much of the framing of the right, but we must firmly reject its narrative and call it out in no uncertain terms. Figures on the British right talk of taking back control, but people can see that they are the ones who gave it away.”

    https://x.com/steverichards14/status/2014612676777779396?s=20

    Almost at the fiftieth anniversary of Blame Thatcher. How long can they drag it out? I assume this is aimed at the Party Faithful.
    The blame attaches more to her successors who adopted bits of her dogma blindly (which obviously includes the Blair/Brown era).

    Thatcher undoubtedly made mistakes.
    Her policies which directly disastrous for the north of England.

    But she also did quite a lot of necessary stuff, and I don't think she did all that much which wasn't capable of remediation, had her successors diagnosed and addressed where she went wrong.
    The reason it can still be "dragged out" is that they have never been addressed.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,195
    Scott_xP said:

    @davidtwilcock.bsky.social‬

    Farage's willingness to pucker up to Trump is shaping up to be a real electoral problem. Reform's poll lead is already flatlining/ shrinking and Politico @moreincommonuk.bsky.social piece shows it could cost them votes in suburbia. And that was before he decided to slag off UK troops

    Noticeable that Robert Jenrick has already seen which way the wind is blowing on this

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidtwilcock.bsky.social/post/3md3fbtw42c2c

    TBF I think they’re poll share plateaued in the Summer/Autumn.

    The next GE will likely be shortly after the next American Presidential election. Which should be interesting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,664

    I see Trump is threatening to invoke NATO article 5 to protect the US southern border from illegal immigration. Perhaps we can do that with the channel??

    He's just trolling as usual.
    Best ignored.
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