- Do you need to be white to be English? - Are you glad that gay people can get married? - Do you think man made global warming is a myth?
Simple yes or no answers. No evasion. No "it's not that simple..."
Think of it as akin to when every politician was hounded as to define a women. Keep asking until he gives a straight answer.
Need to pin his colours to a mast.
I think he'd handle all those questions very well.
If he answered "No" "Yes" and "No" do we think that would settle the matter(s)?
I don't think he would do that because giving those sorts of 'shot your fox' one-word answers is a temporary sugar rush, but carries risks.
I think he'd possibly say that in his view they don't, but when he grew up Englishness did have an ethnic dimension, so he wasn't out to police that view, especially in the old.
Then that he was glad but that Cameron had badly mishandled the legislation and made it unnecessarily divisive - religious organisations should not be forced to solemnize unions that their beliefs did not support.
Then that he recognised that climates change, but the crisis element was being used to bully people into bad policies - offshoring our industry to China who open coal mines by the dozen every week, etc.
He'd eat the questions up, and turn each one into an opportunity to put his case.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Indeed
Everyone has an ethnicity. What then is the ethnicity of the Caucasian inhabitants of the British isles who can genetically trace their habitation here for many hundreds and often thousands of years? What is the word for them?
Anglo-Celts? What?
However you phrase it you are going to exclude some who might get annoyed. In this case “Anglo-Celt” would exclude Huguenots like Farage - which is at least amusing
- Do you need to be white to be English? - Are you glad that gay people can get married? - Do you think man made global warming is a myth?
Simple yes or no answers. No evasion. No "it's not that simple..."
Think of it as akin to when every politician was hounded as to define a women. Keep asking until he gives a straight answer.
Need to pin his colours to a mast.
I think he'd handle all those questions very well.
If he answered "No" "Yes" and "No" do we think that would settle the matter(s)?
I don't think he would do that because giving those sorts of 'shot your fox' one-word answers is a temporary sugar rush, but carries risks.
I think he'd possibly say that in his view they don't, but when he grew up Englishness did have an ethnic dimension, so he wasn't out to police that view, especially in the old.
Then that he was glad but that Cameron had badly mishandled the legislation and made it unnecessarily divisive - religious organisations should not be forced to solemnize unions that their beliefs did not support.
Then that he recognised that climates change, but the crisis element was being used to bully people into bad policies - offshoring our industry to China who open coal mines by the dozen every week, etc.
He'd eat the questions up, and turn each one into an opportunity to put his case.
He’s a good media performer. He’s going to have no issues with those questions.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
I don’t recall being taught the history of maths when I learnt maths at A level. Is it a feature now, or of Uni courses?
Today I've been listening as wallpaper to various recordings about political involvement of televangelists and similar figures in the early 1980s, in support of the Christian Conservative Right in the USA (which means eg Pat Robertson supporting Reagan, as the then version of Paula White and Trump / Trump's senior figures). I'm looking for comparisons with USA 2025, and also the UK.
I relistened to one of the first 'Gospel' (it's in quotes because it's light Synth Rock, not say folk or country or bluegrass or gospel music) albums I ever bought, called "Meltdown", from an artist called Steve Taylor. He's 67 now. His thing was satire aimed at Evangelical Hypocrisy and Secular Hypocrisy; I mainly agree with his cultural satire, but not with most of his doctrinal emphases. The themes and very sharply observed lyrics stand up very well, and still apply to much that exists today.
This one "We don't need no colour code" was about Bob Jones (old style fundamentalist) university, which maintained its "no interracial dating amongst students" ban until a scandal after Dubya Bush made a speech there in 2000. Even then a written request from parents was required (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/670184.stm):
To illustrate the political links, BJU had had speeches made, or contact with their principal, from Ronald Reagan, Dan Quayle, Pat Buchanan, Phil Gramm, Bob Dole, and Alan Keyes - for a start. More recently, BJU has received Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Rick Perry, Mike Huckabee, Scott Walker. Jeb Bush, Carson, Tom Cruz.
Lyrics: Down in Carolina way lived a man name o' Big B.J B.J. went and got a school founded on caucasian rule Bumper sticker on his Ford says 'Honkies If You Love The Lord"
[Chorus] We don't need no colour code Take your rules and hit the road Judgement Day is goin' down Better burn your cap and gown
White man speak with forked tongue White supremists eat their young Bigotry is on the loose Ignorance is no excuse I know Jesus loves that man Even with a Greenville tan *
[Chorus] Marching to Pretoria Colour codes in churches huh? Following a fascist creed Whose translation do you read? True believers won't be snowed We don't need no colour code
For MTV nerds, one of the songs - "Meltdown at Madame Tussauds", was the first gospel song video featured on the station. It was about the ephemeral nature of celebrity and fame. I find the metaphors on this one a bit clunky. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jey8tLfokbs
To me, and maybe two other PBers, interesting stuff.
* Greenviile is the home of Bob Jones University, so "Greenville tan" is likely meaning 'lilly-white Caucasian'.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
"Minge vase" ?
Good Lord.
I think it's a kind of Brazilian sculptural creation.
Regarding this polling, perhaps I am too influenced by recent trends in the West, but I still expect Reform’s VI to increase in the next 12 months, absent some kind of Farage implosion.
I come back to the US example a lot. I know that the UK is not the US but it is importing a lot of its political and cultural trends.
Trump is all sorts of “ists” and “isms” (take your pick!). He still won elections. Those might have been narrow victories, or down the weirdness of the electoral system; but the idea that people will just defeat certain candidates because they are “beyond the pale” just doesn’t ring true to me anymore. There are plenty of voters who feel confronted with decline, and they don’t like it, and they are willing to hold their nose and take a gamble with outfits like MAGA and Reform. And Farage, for all his myriad faults and objectionable as he can be, is not quite on Trump’s level IMHO, at least in terms of public image.
Yes, lots of voters also reject these candidates. That’s the gamble that Labour are hoping will help bolster their support. But that opposition to Reform is spread across a number of political persuasions right now. It is not guaranteed by any stretch to coalesce around Labour.
The best way for Labour to defeat Reform, I believe, is to show measurable improvement through their policies.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
"Minge vase" ?
Nah. From the Qim dynasty....
It was a reference to one of BigG's very funny typos - sadly not authentic in this instance.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
I think the jury is out on whether Starmer has used the right strategy, and the next few polls should give an answer
I'm quite curious @Big_G_NorthWales - I think like me you are a disillusioned Tory. As such the idea of a Labour government is pretty grim. Worse still the ideas of the whole Labour movement. So it'd be reasonable to expect me (for example) to really think that Starmer was diabolical. And yet I don't. Operating within what's classed as thinking for the Labour movement I think he's doing quite well, and Reeves too. I find it quite baffling that the world and his wife seem to completely trash what is actually to my mind a relatively sensible government, given that government is operating under the burden of a daft starting position.
Does that echo any of your thoughts?
Not really
Starmer and Reeves have been an unmitigated disaster with a job destroying budget, anti business regulations, and even now talking of spending billions more on things like axing the 2 child benefit and lots of spending promises this week
Add in free clothes, glasses, concert and football tickets plus Rayner tax evasion and the appalling decision to appoint Mandelson so they are now competing at Boris's sleeze levels
We are on the cusp of a serious debt crisis with bond rates higher than what Truss achieved all after a 40 billion tax raising budget last year and another 30 billion as a direct result of overspending and their inability to cut welfare
Imagine if when they were elected in July 2024 they told everyone they would increase taxes by 70 billion in the first 15 months what the outcry would be, and yet that is what they have done
Thanks for the reply. Interesting that we differ so. Of course you're right in what you say, but I wonder what people expected of a Labour government in difficult times. The Blair years were underpinned by the fine economic picture inherited.
I hoped Starmer pre the election was what we got but we didn't sadly
The minge vase was already ringing very hollow before the election if one cared to listen.
The British Army is so small now that Farage and co wont be able to copy their besties over in Washington and send the military into the cities to take on the enemy within.
"The New York City Housing Authority, which manages the complex, said in a statement that it is investigating the incident and still determining the extent of the damage. The building has a few open violations against it."
Oh dear. Sounds like stuff they criticise private landlords for ignoring.
Anybody else following the mysterious Swan and Atlas arrivals in the solar sytem?
Seems to be lots of tripe on the net.
BTW was in Devon watching emperor dragonflies (and other odonatans) hunt and mate in the sun last weekend. Very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours by a small pond. Also largew congregations of ivy bees - have never seen them before. But my friend is an apiarist and explained about those new immigrants.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Doesn't look like quite the same mechanism - bricks rather than large modules, so better integrity of the walls. But too early to be sure.
I think you're right - it's definitely brick. The edges seemed too clean for that in the images I saw, though. My *guess* would be that it's a staircase that's gone down - which may explain the lack of casualties. But there aren't any signs of a lift's equipment or staircases on the remaining walls. Odd. What else could it be?
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
I don't think angry idiots on the internet should get to set the terms of public discourse.
Doesn't look like quite the same mechanism - bricks rather than large modules, so better integrity of the walls. But too early to be sure.
I think you're right - it's definitely brick. The edges seemed too clean for that in the images I saw, though. My *guess* would be that it's a staircase that's gone down - which may explain the lack of casualties. But there aren't any signs of a lift's equipment or staircases on the remaining walls. Odd. What else could it be?
Also IIRC the Ronan Pt failure started high(ish) up and progressed downwardfs. This could be a blowout at the bottom progressing vertically upwards, possibly with the floors or stair landings popping out of their housings - but this is getting very hypothetical.
Anybody else following the mysterious Swan and Atlas arrivals in the solar sytem?
Seems to be lots of tripe on the net.
BTW was in Devon watching emperor dragonflies (and other odonatans) hunt and mate in the sun last weekend. Very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours by a small pond. Also largew congregations of ivy bees - have never seen them before. But my friend is an apiarist and explained about those new immigrants.
You should have dropped in. We have ivy bees - delightful little things. We also had tree bumblebees a couple of years ago, on their conquest northwards from Europe. We still have large numbers of long-horned bees around Prawle Point - also a great place to find migrant moths in the right conditions.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
I would argue it's almost entirely a question of attitude.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
I find it quite amusing - and also quite satisfying - that some of our many recent Hong Kong residents locally appear to have developed a love of gardening.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
I don't think angry idiots on the internet should get to set the terms of public discourse.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
I don't think angry idiots on the internet should get to set the terms of public discourse.
Agreed, but I don't feel that's a battle that is being won at present.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
That is true. Attitude is everything. I was Solihull born and absolutely can't abide the English national rugby side. A bunch of poshos compared to our sturdy Welsh miners.
This is why I am supporting Nigel, he is opening all the flooded pits in order for Welsh Rugby to put it's wooden spoon days behind it.
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
A lot of German Jews thought they were Germans in the 1920s, and by and large were correct to think so.
Ultimately though it wasn't their opinion that mattered.
The British Army is so small now that Farage and co wont be able to copy their besties over in Washington and send the military into the cities to take on the enemy within.
They could just about calm Blackpool down maybe.
Not on a weekend - not with the stag and hen does.
"In remarkable scenes, 2 Para was forced to evacuate the town, pursued by 400 nuns..."
I haven't followed the indefinite leave to remain story closely, but am I right in thinking the allegation of racism stems from Reform saying that they wouldn't touch the post-Brexit deal for EU nationals? Kind of ironic if so.
There's also Tice's girlfriend effectively going back to the 1980s and saying John Barnes isn't British/English.
IN the world according to @Keir_Starmer if I grew up in, say, Somalia, I could credibly claim to be Somalian. Could I? Really? I think that would be laughable.
I remember meeting some friends of my grandparents who congratulated my then girlfriend, now wife, on how beautifully she spoke English. My wife is of Sri Lankan heritage (or "black as the ace of spades" as my granddad is alleged to have referred to her) but was born in Margate, and her English is a hell of a lot more beautiful than her Sinhala, judging by how tuk tuk drivers laugh at her efforts in Colombo. I suppose the people congratulating her on her English probably didn't consider themselves to have racist attitudes. My wife of course was gracious to them, as she was to my grandparents, who I think were rather fond of her.
But your wife was born in England, and I presume grew up here. John Barnes was born and lived in Jamaica until he was 12. I don't see why it would be racist to say your wife is more English than John Barnes.
If John Barnes had a brother twelve years younger than him, born in North London and never stepping foot in Jamaica, surely he would be slightly less Jamaican than his older brother?
I don't consider myself to be English so I'm not going to police the boundaries of Englishness!
This is where I would challenge Konstantin Kisin. Since by his own definition he doesn't consider himself English, why is it for him to define who is?
There is a broader point as to why people are looking for definition in ethnic identity. Alternatively you could posit some kind of cultural identity. My prediction is that Labour will fail to do this for Britain - and indeed England if they were to try it - because any attempt to define Britishness will be exclusive in some way. And they cannot bring themselves to exclude anyone.
Does anyone want to construct a British identity that is inclusive for those whose primary loyalty is to the global ummah?
Perhaps very controversially, and this will probably upset a few PBers, I think that being English is a question of attitude, and not just a question of birth.
That is true. Attitude is everything. I was Solihull born and absolutely can't abide the English national rugby side. A bunch of poshos compared to our sturdy Welsh miners.
This is why I am supporting Nigel, he is opening all the flooded pits in order for Welsh Rugby to put it's wooden spoon days behind it.
Althea: What is this? Howard: It's a robot arm. Althea: Where's the rest of the robot? Howard: I only built the arm. Althea: Because that's all you needed, right?
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
I don’t recall being taught the history of maths when I learnt maths at A level. Is it a feature now, or of Uni courses?
I hope not because that is history not maths. You see this in quizzes. You get a science question and it is often something like when was Newton born. Again that is history not maths/science. Many non scientists confusing art with science. But then people think Newton discovered gravity by an apple falling rather than developing the formula G.m1.m2/d.d
Althea: What is this? Howard: It's a robot arm. Althea: Where's the rest of the robot? Howard: I only built the arm. Althea: Because that's all you needed, right?
Johner: Hey, Vriess, you got a socket wrench? Maybe she just needs an oil change. Can't believe I almost fucked it. Vriess: Yeah, like you never fucked a robot.
The first plausible tactical position they’ve adopted since the election, so of course they’re all going to start falling out with each other about it.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
"Zero! Invented in India!" - Sanjeev Bhaskar as Mr India.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
I don’t recall being taught the history of maths when I learnt maths at A level. Is it a feature now, or of Uni courses?
I hope not because that is history not maths. You see this in quizzes. You get a science question and it is often something like when was Newton born. Again that is history not maths/science. Many non scientists confusing art with science. But then people think Newton discovered gravity by an apple falling rather than developing the formula G.m1.m2/d.d
There's a bit of it - it can be a useful intro e.g. the apocryphal story of Gauss adding the numbers from 1-100 (https://nrich.maths.org/articles/clever-carl) is the obvious intro to summing arithmetic series as the formula that students use pops out really nicely and it's a good story of a kid getting one over a dull maths teacher.
Agreed it shouldn't be front and centre, but a good story brings a subject alive.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
No, it's not
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
No, it's not
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
I think you're straying into territory you don't know enough about.
If I asked you to look at a matrix and tell me what 3D transformation it encodes, and told you there was only one right way of getting to the answer, I'd be a shit teacher and you'd end up a crap mathematician.
'One right way' is poisonous in maths. 'Arithmetic correctness' is not. Don't confuse the two.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
No, it's not
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
I think you're straying into territory you don't know enough about.
If I asked you to look at a matrix and tell me what 3D transformation it encodes, and told you there was only one right way of getting to the answer, I'd be a shit teacher and you'd end up a crap mathematician.
'One right way' is poisonous in maths. 'Arithmetic correctness' is not. Don't confuse the two.
Don't patronise me, twit
I'm showing you a chunk of the Californian education curriculum, in 2020, and it was the source of great controversy
"Now MATH is racist: Educators condemn $1M 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program funded by Bill Gates which tells teachers NOT to push students to find the correct answer because it promotes white supremacy"
So it's you that doesn't know what he's talking about. Grrr
"Educators around the US have come out to condemn the 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program It centers around a workbook which asserts that asking students to find the correct answer for math problems is inherently harmful for minorities
"So far, the workbook is being used by school districts in Georgia, Ohio, California and Oregon Critics say to it actually reinforces negative stereotypes and drives wedges between students according to their race
"'The workbook's ultimate message is clear: Black kids are bad at math, so why don't we just excuse them from really learning it,' one critic said"
I'm going to have a stonking large Cotswold gin and regain my steady composure
Anybody else following the mysterious Swan and Atlas arrivals in the solar sytem?
Seems to be lots of tripe on the net.
BTW was in Devon watching emperor dragonflies (and other odonatans) hunt and mate in the sun last weekend. Very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours by a small pond. Also largew congregations of ivy bees - have never seen them before. But my friend is an apiarist and explained about those new immigrants.
You should have dropped in. We have ivy bees - delightful little things. We also had tree bumblebees a couple of years ago, on their conquest northwards from Europe. We still have large numbers of long-horned bees around Prawle Point - also a great place to find migrant moths in the right conditions.
Ooh, Prawle Point - camped there many, many years ago as a student. Loved the South Hams and the cider. My friend was also telling me about the tree bumblebees.
I was actually in east Devon, hard by the county boundary in the Axmouth-Lyme Regis NNR.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
No, it's not
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
I think you're straying into territory you don't know enough about.
If I asked you to look at a matrix and tell me what 3D transformation it encodes, and told you there was only one right way of getting to the answer, I'd be a shit teacher and you'd end up a crap mathematician.
'One right way' is poisonous in maths. 'Arithmetic correctness' is not. Don't confuse the two.
Don't patronise me, twit
I'm showing you a chunk of the Californian education curriculum, in 2020, and it was the source of great controversy
"Now MATH is racist: Educators condemn $1M 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program funded by Bill Gates which tells teachers NOT to push students to find the correct answer because it promotes white supremacy"
So it's you that doesn't know what he's talking about. Grrr
Yeah, sorry at the patronising tone, I was being an arse.
In return, stop posting links from clickbaiters and angry people on the internet. The Daily Mail's interpretation of what is going on within the world of maths education is worth less than my fungal toenail on eBay.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
Of all the things we inherited from the Arabs, algebra comes after Alcohol and Gibraltar on my personal list.
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
#Justice4BabyalonianMathematicians
Not to mention the Arab librarians and mathematicians who saved Graeco-Roman maths and developed it further, when the Brits and Angles were, erm ...
I note 4% of Reform voters say, "Yes, they're racist... that's the attraction".
Yes, we do need to bear in mind that there are some people who consider the Party being racist as a good thing.
Well within my lifetime being overtly racist has been a mainstream political view in Britain, Australia and the USA. It still is in many countries around the world.
Seeing racial discrimination as a bad thing is a very recent innovation, and something that those who want the country to look more like it did half a century ago want to reverse.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
As others more eloquent than me have said many times, a basic part of the problem is fragility around the word racist.
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
No, it's not
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
I think you're straying into territory you don't know enough about.
If I asked you to look at a matrix and tell me what 3D transformation it encodes, and told you there was only one right way of getting to the answer, I'd be a shit teacher and you'd end up a crap mathematician.
'One right way' is poisonous in maths. 'Arithmetic correctness' is not. Don't confuse the two.
Don't patronise me, twit
I'm showing you a chunk of the Californian education curriculum, in 2020, and it was the source of great controversy
"Now MATH is racist: Educators condemn $1M 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program funded by Bill Gates which tells teachers NOT to push students to find the correct answer because it promotes white supremacy"
So it's you that doesn't know what he's talking about. Grrr
Yeah, sorry at the patronising tone, I was being an arse.
In return, stop posting links from clickbaiters and angry people on the internet. The Daily Mail's interpretation of what is going on within the world of maths education is worth less than my fungal toenail on eBay.
I've bothered to go to the source and find the bit that enraged the DM headline writers:
"There is a greater focus on getting the "right" answer than understanding concepts and reasoning. Instead... Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open con- flict. Some math problems may have more than one right answer and some may not have a solution at all, depend- ing on the content and the context. And when the focus is only on getting the right answer, the complexity of the mathematical concepts and reasoning may be underdeveloped, missing opportunities for deep learning."
They're not arguing that getting to the right answer is racist. They're arguing that understanding a process, concept and structure in maths is more important. And that sometimes there are multiple correct answers.
This is just basic maths pedagogy that some pressure group in California has piggybacked on.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
Of all the things we inherited from the Arabs, algebra comes after Alcohol and Gibraltar on my personal list.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
I don’t recall being taught the history of maths when I learnt maths at A level. Is it a feature now, or of Uni courses?
I hope not because that is history not maths. You see this in quizzes. You get a science question and it is often something like when was Newton born. Again that is history not maths/science. Many non scientists confusing art with science. But then people think Newton discovered gravity by an apple falling rather than developing the formula G.m1.m2/d.d
There's a bit of it - it can be a useful intro e.g. the apocryphal story of Gauss adding the numbers from 1-100 (https://nrich.maths.org/articles/clever-carl) is the obvious intro to summing arithmetic series as the formula that students use pops out really nicely and it's a good story of a kid getting one over a dull maths teacher.
Agreed it shouldn't be front and centre, but a good story brings a subject alive.
Like Ramanujan and the taxi cab numbers. His story is great, if tragic. And also, when I think of it, coves immigration and other topics as well.
One of my maths teachers did a lesson on '42', based on HHGTTG. He asked what we thought the question might be, mathematically or otherwise, and we then ended up discussing our questions. It was quite fascinating, and about the only maths lesson of his I remember.
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
An interesting change to this question would be to make the ‘German’ mixed race and the ‘Croatian’ white
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
#Justice4BabyalonianMathematicians
Not to mention the Arab librarians and mathematicians who saved Graeco-Roman maths and developed it further, when the Brits and Angles were, erm ...
Reparations are surely on the cards? One could argue that the whole system of capitalism is built on the backs of those Arab librarians.
I note 4% of Reform voters say, "Yes, they're racist... that's the attraction".
Yes, we do need to bear in mind that there are some people who consider the Party being racist as a good thing.
Well within my lifetime being overtly racist has been a mainstream political view in Britain, Australia and the USA. It still is in many countries around the world.
Seeing racial discrimination as a bad thing is a very recent innovation, and something that those who want the country to look more like it did half a century ago want to reverse.
Would it be fair to say that the vast majority of countries in the world aren’t huge fans of minorities and especially don’t want them ruling the majority, having more money than the majority or demanding certain laws or norms are changed to suit them.
The West is a big outlier in social attitudes where minorities ideally aren’t treated as minorities and whilst treating everyone equally is a nice aim it’s not the norm now or through history.
I would imagine that many of the people who are judged to be “racist” aren’t so much people who have an issue with skin colour but are more concerned about daily to day perceived cultural differences that impose on their lives in their minds.
I guess that someone like Rishi Sunak would be perfectly “acceptable” for many Reformers as a human as he isn’t majorly “different” whereas many from the traveller community, who are clearly white would be considered a problem.
I still think there is a subtle difference between “racism” and “culturalism”.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
Has any PBer ever taken that stance ?
No one apart from Leon cares about this very much.
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
I think this is an utterly futile discussion.
Englishness/Britishness should be a question of sufficiency (do you qualify for a passport, have the right to work, vote etc) not a competition.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
Has any PBer ever taken that stance ?
No one apart from Leon cares about this very much.
Yeah. No one cares except me
Well, apart from the white voters of America. Who elected Trump partly for this exact reason. Anger at wokeness in education and elsewhere - and a sense of whiteness being vilified
Otherwise, your normal brilliant and witty observation
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
Darling: I'm as British as Queen Victoria! Blackadder: So you're father's German, you're half-German, and you married a German!
Anybody else following the mysterious Swan and Atlas arrivals in the solar sytem?
Seems to be lots of tripe on the net.
BTW was in Devon watching emperor dragonflies (and other odonatans) hunt and mate in the sun last weekend. Very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours by a small pond. Also largew congregations of ivy bees - have never seen them before. But my friend is an apiarist and explained about those new immigrants.
You should have dropped in. We have ivy bees - delightful little things. We also had tree bumblebees a couple of years ago, on their conquest northwards from Europe. We still have large numbers of long-horned bees around Prawle Point - also a great place to find migrant moths in the right conditions.
Ooh, Prawle Point - camped there many, many years ago as a student. Loved the South Hams and the cider. My friend was also telling me about the tree bumblebees.
I was actually in east Devon, hard by the county boundary in the Axmouth-Lyme Regis NNR.
I was in Sidmouth on Monday. Nice - but prefer the South Hams.
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
We don’t talk about Matilda (the Anarchy) or Bloody Mary. Jane Gray would have been quite good but she was only a Nine Day Queen
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
I think this is an utterly futile discussion.
Englishness/Britishness should be a question of sufficiency (do you qualify for a passport, have the right to work, vote etc) not a competition.
What is the ethnicity of white Britons?
This is not meant to provoke. I am interested in the sensible left position on this, and you are one of the few sensible PB lefties
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
Does that matter?
It might do to the Indians. It's arguably the greatest intellectual misattribution in history.
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
We don’t talk about Matilda (the Anarchy) or Bloody Mary. Jane Gray would have been quite good but she was only a Nine Day Queen
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
We don’t talk about Matilda (the Anarchy) or Bloody Mary. Jane Gray would have been quite good but she was only a Nine Day Queen
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
#Justice4BabyalonianMathematicians
Not to mention the Arab librarians and mathematicians who saved Graeco-Roman maths and developed it further, when the Brits and Angles were, erm ...
Reparations are surely on the cards? One could argue that the whole system of capitalism is built on the backs of those Arab librarians.
And Kirkcaldy schoolteachers. Huge responsibility.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
Does that matter?
It might do to the Indians. It's arguably the greatest intellectual misattribution in history.
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
We don’t talk about Matilda (the Anarchy) or Bloody Mary. Jane Gray would have been quite good but she was only a Nine Day Queen
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
I think this is an utterly futile discussion.
Englishness/Britishness should be a question of sufficiency (do you qualify for a passport, have the right to work, vote etc) not a competition.
What is the ethnicity of white Britons?
This is not meant to provoke. I am interested in the sensible left position on this, and you are one of the few sensible PB lefties
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
We don’t talk about Matilda (the Anarchy) or Bloody Mary. Jane Gray would have been quite good but she was only a Nine Day Queen
I'm growing weary of this smearing of all Reform supporters as racist. It's offensive, counterproductive and wildly incorrect to say that. Of course the party disproportionately attracts racists but a large number of their supporters are not, probably as many as a half. Just assuming somebody who is resolved to vote Reform is racist is like tossing a coin and assuming it'll be tails. Would anyone in their right mind do that? I don't think so.
If we met two German twenty year olds, one of whom was born to two German parents in Germany, the other to two Croatians and had never set foot in Germany until eight years ago, would anyone truly think they were both equally German? I think that would be ridiculous, and there’s neither skin colour nor preference for fellow Germans to influence my decision.
I think this is an utterly futile discussion.
Englishness/Britishness should be a question of sufficiency (do you qualify for a passport, have the right to work, vote etc) not a competition.
What is the ethnicity of white Britons?
This is not meant to provoke. I am interested in the sensible left position on this, and you are one of the few sensible PB lefties
My honest position is, I dunno. I haven't given it much thought, which probably reflects my privileged position as not part of an ethnic minority, so it doesn't feature much in my life. Likewise, this isn't a facile response, I'm just not sure that I feel it matters very much.
If I was asked my ethnicity I'd say white British, but I guess there is more underlying your question.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
Has any PBer ever taken that stance ?
No one apart from Leon cares about this very much.
Yeah. No one cares except me
Well, apart from the white voters of America. Who elected Trump partly for this exact reason. Anger at wokeness in education and elsewhere - and a sense of whiteness being vilified
Otherwise, your normal brilliant and witty observation
You're getting worked up about a particular issue no one on here cares very much about.
And as a particular issue it probably didn't make any difference at all to the last US election.
You also seem still to labour under the apprehension I'm here to entertain you.
I'm growing weary of this smearing of all Reform supporters as racist. It's offensive, counterproductive and wildly incorrect to say that. Of course the party disproportionately attracts racists but a large number of their supporters are not, probably as many as a half. Just assuming somebody who is resolved to vote Reform is racist is like tossing a coin and assuming it'll be tails. Would anyone in their right mind do that? I don't think so.
I’m trying to find your usual subtle arch criticism in that post and if it’s as genuine as I read it then a fine post.
I sometimes think that if the shit hit the fan with Russia (for example) the people happiest to throw shit at the flag shaggers and reform types would be praying to god those angry chaps go out and hold the line and protect the right of their previous critics to write pearl clutching articles about things they are uncomfortable about.
There was a lot of discussion about how to deter badgers earlier. The only way is human piss and it has to be from an adult male, as it’s the testosterone they don’t like. If they dig a latrine in your lawn, you fill it in. And then piss on it every day. Try and identify there entry point to the garden and piss all over that too. I have saved literally pennies on my water meter by only going for a cheeky badger piss when at home.
What they are after is probably leather jackets and chafer grubs. So either maintain a dead and bone dry lawn that can’t sustain life. Or treat twice per year with nematodes.
The downside of this is that billy badger is the most effective mole control I have found. So you pick your poison. Daily mounds of mud. Or holes filled with sh1t from a tb laden menace.
I'm growing weary of this smearing of all Reform supporters as racist. It's offensive, counterproductive and wildly incorrect to say that. Of course the party disproportionately attracts racists but a large number of their supporters are not, probably as many as a half. Just assuming somebody who is resolved to vote Reform is racist is like tossing a coin and assuming it'll be tails. Would anyone in their right mind do that? I don't think so.
I’m trying to find your usual subtle arch criticism in that post and if it’s as genuine as I read it then a fine post.
I sometimes think that if the shit hit the fan with Russia (for example) the people happiest to throw shit at the flag shaggers and reform types would be praying to god those angry chaps go out and hold the line and protect the right of their previous critics to write pearl clutching articles about things they are uncomfortable about.
I agree but isn't that just a particular example of the more general observation that a good war would do wonders for our community cohesion and national identity?
We spend all day on the internet sniping at one another because we have forgotten what a real enemy looks like.
This all depends on the word “racist” having any emotional weight any more. Given that it is hurled at literally everything from maths to gardening to half of Britain - or nearly all of it if Labour is doing the hurling - then I don’t think it has any moral impact. Not any more
Go on. Racist maths... No doubt you may be able to find a link, but I can't believe you've actually come up against such a thing.
“Modern Mathematics Confronts Its White, Patriarchal Past”
I have spent a significant chunk of time over the past few years discussing this in school.
Leon isn't wrong.
But also, it's not wrong to say that the way we teach maths tends to pretend that it was all developed by the Greeks and then the universities of Western Europe. We have a big map of maths on the wall in our corridor highlighting that e.g. zero is Indian, prime numbers might have been discovered in what is now the DRC well before anywhere else.
It's a valuable corrective to the otherwise easily formed impression that maths is a white man's game.
But I agree that to label maths as racist is foolish laziness.
The point you make is the point the people mentioned in the articles make: that mathematical discoveries have often been assigned to people who were not their originators, for cultural reasons.
But that's not saying that 'maths is racist". It's saying that racism (and other isms) can intrude into maths, as it can into many other fields. And when it does, it can be racist.
Look at the title of the sciam article; that agrees with the point you made, doesn't it? And even the byline: "Mathematicians want to think their field is a meritocracy, but bias, harassment and exclusion persist" should hardly be controversial.
There are a few levels of this conversation going on.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Also, as you well know, the maths is racist discourse goes way beyond “oh don’t forget to mention how Arabs invented our numbers”
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
Don't you listen to the Spectator book podcast? William Dalrymple was saying the other week how the Arabs nicked those numerals from the Indians and we then nicked them from the Arabs.
Does that matter?
It might do to the Indians. It's arguably the greatest intellectual misattribution in history.
But how is it really relevant to the whole is Math racist debate?
Comments
I think he'd possibly say that in his view they don't, but when he grew up Englishness did have an ethnic dimension, so he wasn't out to police that view, especially in the old.
Then that he was glad but that Cameron had badly mishandled the legislation and made it unnecessarily divisive - religious organisations should not be forced to solemnize unions that their beliefs did not support.
Then that he recognised that climates change, but the crisis element was being used to bully people into bad policies - offshoring our industry to China who open coal mines by the dozen every week, etc.
He'd eat the questions up, and turn each one into an opportunity to put his case.
Everyone has an ethnicity. What then is the ethnicity of the Caucasian inhabitants of the British isles who can genetically trace their habitation here for many hundreds and often thousands of years? What is the word for them?
Anglo-Celts? What?
However you phrase it you are going to exclude some who might get annoyed. In this case “Anglo-Celt” would exclude Huguenots like Farage - which is at least amusing
Today I've been listening as wallpaper to various recordings about political involvement of televangelists and similar figures in the early 1980s, in support of the Christian Conservative Right in the USA (which means eg Pat Robertson supporting Reagan, as the then version of Paula White and Trump / Trump's senior figures). I'm looking for comparisons with USA 2025, and also the UK.
I relistened to one of the first 'Gospel' (it's in quotes because it's light Synth Rock, not say folk or country or bluegrass or gospel music) albums I ever bought, called "Meltdown", from an artist called Steve Taylor. He's 67 now. His thing was satire aimed at Evangelical Hypocrisy and Secular Hypocrisy; I mainly agree with his cultural satire, but not with most of his doctrinal emphases. The themes and very sharply observed lyrics stand up very well, and still apply to much that exists today.
This one "We don't need no colour code" was about Bob Jones (old style fundamentalist) university, which maintained its "no interracial dating amongst students" ban until a scandal after Dubya Bush made a speech there in 2000. Even then a written request from parents was required (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/670184.stm):
To illustrate the political links, BJU had had speeches made, or contact with their principal, from Ronald Reagan, Dan Quayle, Pat Buchanan, Phil Gramm, Bob Dole, and Alan Keyes - for a start. More recently, BJU has received Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Rick Perry, Mike Huckabee, Scott Walker. Jeb Bush, Carson, Tom Cruz.
This song is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M5ZVm8ea1U
Lyrics:
Down in Carolina way lived a man name o' Big B.J
B.J. went and got a school founded on caucasian rule
Bumper sticker on his Ford says 'Honkies If You Love The Lord"
[Chorus]
We don't need no colour code
Take your rules and hit the road
Judgement Day is goin' down
Better burn your cap and gown
White man speak with forked tongue
White supremists eat their young
Bigotry is on the loose
Ignorance is no excuse
I know Jesus loves that man
Even with a Greenville tan *
[Chorus]
Marching to Pretoria
Colour codes in churches huh?
Following a fascist creed
Whose translation do you read?
True believers won't be snowed
We don't need no colour code
For MTV nerds, one of the songs - "Meltdown at Madame Tussauds", was the first gospel song video featured on the station. It was about the ephemeral nature of celebrity and fame. I find the metaphors on this one a bit clunky. The video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jey8tLfokbs
To me, and maybe two other PBers, interesting stuff.
* Greenviile is the home of Bob Jones University, so "Greenville tan" is likely meaning 'lilly-white Caucasian'.
I come back to the US example a lot. I know that the UK is not the US but it is importing a lot of its political and cultural trends.
Trump is all sorts of “ists” and “isms” (take your pick!). He still won elections. Those might have been narrow victories, or down the weirdness of the electoral system; but the idea that people will just defeat certain candidates because they are “beyond the pale” just doesn’t ring true to me anymore. There are plenty of voters who feel confronted with decline, and they don’t like it, and they are willing to hold their nose and take a gamble with outfits like MAGA and Reform. And Farage, for all his myriad faults and objectionable as he can be, is not quite on Trump’s level IMHO, at least in terms of public image.
Yes, lots of voters also reject these candidates. That’s the gamble that Labour are hoping will help bolster their support. But that opposition to Reform is spread across a number of political persuasions right now. It is not guaranteed by any stretch to coalesce around Labour.
The best way for Labour to defeat Reform, I believe, is to show measurable improvement through their policies.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8jp4y0jdmo
I can think of many exciting applications
https://x.com/thehumanoidlabs/status/1968382318520975374?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
The British Army is so small now that Farage and co wont be able to copy their besties over in Washington and send the military into the cities to take on the enemy within.
They could just about calm Blackpool down maybe.
Oh dear. Sounds like stuff they criticise private landlords for ignoring.
It's an impressive bit of kit.
BTW was in Devon watching emperor dragonflies (and other odonatans) hunt and mate in the sun last weekend. Very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours by a small pond. Also largew congregations of ivy bees - have never seen them before. But my friend is an apiarist and explained about those new immigrants.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Leon should read the links rather than Google them, skim the first line and hurl them at us. I do him the credit of assuming he is actually reading the links.
I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some useful thoughts that emerge once we accept that racist attitudes can intrude on maths (I have little doubt that what I'd call the maths canon was set by a bunch of racists and we haven't got around to correcting that yet).
But all these are quite subtle points, and our public discourse does subtlety poorly at present. Hence Leon is right that all this stuff does get boiled down to the sound bite "maths is racist" at times by clickbaiters and angry idiots on the internet.
Lots of other chunky red brick churches around the back streets of the centro storico.
This is why I am supporting Nigel, he is opening all the flooded pits in order for Welsh Rugby to put it's wooden spoon days behind it.
Ultimately though it wasn't their opinion that mattered.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/01/obituaries/jane-goodall-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qE8.TRB2.v64y7FhLrfgF&smid=url-share
"In remarkable scenes, 2 Para was forced to evacuate the town, pursued by 400 nuns..."
Howard: It's a robot arm.
Althea: Where's the rest of the robot?
Howard: I only built the arm.
Althea: Because that's all you needed, right?
There is a real attempt to get actual arithmetic correctness labelled as white supremacy. It sounds mad - surely they don’t mean it - but then look how far genderwoo has gone. A chunk of the country believes men with penises are women
There is a second strand which believes that any subject which has a racial disparity in outcome - eg maths - MUST be racist. How come these East Asians are doing better? Tear it all down until there is completely racial equity of achievement
Plenty of people are trying to do exactly this to
Maths and science. And it’s dangerous nonsense
https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1973356962151600607?s=19
Vriess: Yeah, like you never fucked a robot.
https://micheletafoya.substack.com/p/reading-is-racist-1e2
There is a (useful) interpretation of racism that says that maths as a living subject (rather than just a collection of facts) IS racist and sexist.
We miss recruiting geniuses into the world of maths because they are women or not white. Noone need feel guilt or shame about that, because (almost) noone actively sets out to maintain this status quo.
But if we could all be a little less angry, we could probably find a useful set of tweaks to how young people experience maths that would address this.
Oh and also, almost noone actually believes your first point that arithmetic correctness=white supremacy - I think that is almost purely an online bubble.
Agreed it shouldn't be front and centre, but a good story brings a subject alive.
This is - or was - part of California's curriculum
"A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction is an integrated approach to mathematics that centers Black, Latinx, and Multilingual students in grades 6-8, addresses barriers to math equity, and aligns instruction to grade-level priority standards"
This tool provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist
math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture Jones and Okun 2001; dismantling Racism 2016) with respect to math
As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as
defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows:
• Perfectionism
• Sense of Urgency
• Defensiveness
• Quantity Over Quality
• Worship of the Written Word
• Paternalism
• Either/Or Thinking
• Power Hoarding
• Fear of Open Conflict
• Individualism
• Only One Right Way
• Progress is Bigger, More
• Objectivity
• Right to Comfort
Because, who wants perfectionism, objecitvity or "only one right way" in.... that horrible white supremacist thing known as.... maths?
https://equitablemath.org/
If I asked you to look at a matrix and tell me what 3D transformation it encodes, and told you there was only one right way of getting to the answer, I'd be a shit teacher and you'd end up a crap mathematician.
'One right way' is poisonous in maths. 'Arithmetic correctness' is not. Don't confuse the two.
I'm showing you a chunk of the Californian education curriculum, in 2020, and it was the source of great controversy
"Now MATH is racist: Educators condemn $1M 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program funded by Bill Gates which tells teachers NOT to push students to find the correct answer because it promotes white supremacy"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9717063/Educators-slam-math-workbook-claims-racist-ask-students-right-answer.html
So it's you that doesn't know what he's talking about. Grrr
"Educators around the US have come out to condemn the 'Dismantling Racism in Mathematics' program
It centers around a workbook which asserts that asking students to find the correct answer for math problems is inherently harmful for minorities
"So far, the workbook is being used by school districts in Georgia, Ohio, California and Oregon
Critics say to it actually reinforces negative stereotypes and drives wedges between students according to their race
"'The workbook's ultimate message is clear: Black kids are bad at math, so why don't we just excuse them from really learning it,' one critic said"
I'm going to have a stonking large Cotswold gin and regain my steady composure
I was actually in east Devon, hard by the county boundary in the Axmouth-Lyme Regis NNR.
In return, stop posting links from clickbaiters and angry people on the internet. The Daily Mail's interpretation of what is going on within the world of maths education is worth less than my fungal toenail on eBay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Forbes_Bonetta
(It is none of my business, of course, but I have sometimes wondered why you haven't tried to have more queens as heads of state, since the ones I know about have done so well._
Well within my lifetime being overtly racist has been a mainstream political view in Britain, Australia and the USA. It still is in many countries around the world.
Seeing racial discrimination as a bad thing is a very recent innovation, and something that those who want the country to look more like it did half a century ago want to reverse.
"There is a greater focus on getting the "right" answer than understanding concepts and reasoning.
Instead...
Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open con-
flict. Some math problems may have more than one right answer and some may not have a solution at all, depend-
ing on the content and the context. And when the focus is only on getting the right answer, the complexity of the
mathematical concepts and reasoning may be underdeveloped, missing opportunities for deep learning."
https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf
They're not arguing that getting to the right answer is racist. They're arguing that understanding a process, concept and structure in maths is more important. And that sometimes there are multiple correct answers.
This is just basic maths pedagogy that some pressure group in California has piggybacked on.
(With apologies to @Jim_Miller for boring you)
One of my maths teachers did a lesson on '42', based on HHGTTG. He asked what we thought the question might be, mathematically or otherwise, and we then ended up discussing our questions. It was quite fascinating, and about the only maths lesson of his I remember.
Or ‘white’ 😉
The West is a big outlier in social attitudes where minorities ideally aren’t treated as minorities and whilst treating everyone equally is a nice aim it’s not the norm now or through history.
I would imagine that many of the people who are judged to be “racist” aren’t so much people who have an issue with skin colour but are more concerned about daily to day perceived cultural differences that impose on their lives in their minds.
I guess that someone like Rishi Sunak would be perfectly “acceptable” for many Reformers as a human as he isn’t majorly “different” whereas many from the traveller community, who are clearly white would be considered a problem.
I still think there is a subtle difference between “racism” and “culturalism”.
No one apart from Leon cares about this very much.
Englishness/Britishness should be a question of sufficiency (do you qualify for a passport, have the right to work, vote etc) not a competition.
Well, apart from the white voters of America. Who elected Trump partly for this exact reason. Anger at wokeness in education and elsewhere - and a sense of whiteness being vilified
Otherwise, your normal brilliant and witty observation
Blackadder: So you're father's German, you're half-German, and you married a German!
If you ever get back down here, do say hello.
This is not meant to provoke. I am interested in the sensible left position on this, and you are one of the few sensible PB lefties
If I was asked my ethnicity I'd say white British, but I guess there is more underlying your question.
And as a particular issue it probably didn't make any difference at all to the last US election.
You also seem still to labour under the apprehension I'm here to entertain you.
Soz.
I sometimes think that if the shit hit the fan with Russia (for example) the people happiest to throw shit at the flag shaggers and reform types would be praying to god those angry chaps go out and hold the line and protect the right of their previous critics to write pearl clutching articles about things they are uncomfortable about.
Secret BBC filming exposes hidden culture of misogyny and racism inside Met Police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgq06d44jyo
What they are after is probably leather jackets and chafer grubs. So either maintain a dead and bone dry lawn that can’t sustain life. Or treat twice per year with nematodes.
The downside of this is that billy badger is the most effective mole control I have found. So you pick your poison. Daily mounds of mud. Or holes filled with sh1t from a tb laden menace.
We spend all day on the internet sniping at one another because we have forgotten what a real enemy looks like.