I wonder if some Labour types are regretting ploughing into Prince Andrew quite so much.
Was it particularly a Labour thing? Istr pretty much everyone (justifiably) putting the boot into non sweaty Andrew.
I think most people think Andrew was an idiot but I did have a tiny bit of sympathy for him in that he was being kicked for remaining friends with Epstein. I don't know how bad someone has to be for them not allowed to talk to other people.
Epstein does seem to have something about him that made people like him. And I don't think it's just for what he could procure for people.
Didn’t Andrew stay in Epstein’s NY appartment well after the paedo stuff was out in the open?
As with Mandy, pretty sure what Andy liked about Epstein was money. Andrew is notorious for loving a freebie (and stupid enough not to realise that there are very few true freebies).
What am I missing ? Wouldn’t it be clear to anyone that making a deal with a paedo should be completely unacceptable, staying in his apartment while he’s in prison is similarly totally unacceptable. How the fxck do you get the job of ambassador to the US with all that already known ?
It is mind boggling
And in the FT Mandelson himself is quoted as saying “there is probably much more to come out”
For me the killer is, as you say, the fact he stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking
There’s no way around that. You can’t say you didn’t know. You knew. And did it anyway
Surely toast
Yes, even if he was "taken in" by the skilful liar that Epstein certainly was (perfectly credible in the context of Mandelson's penchant for networking), at that point there's just no good excuse.
While that doesn't make him any kind of accomplice in Epstein's crimes , it surely renders him utterly unacceptable as a representative of the UK government.
To allow him to carry on would be grotesque.
I do hope that all of those on the right (correctly) calling for Mandelson's head recognise that all of the above, and more, applies to Trump.
I would be delighted to see Trump gone
I know that, Big_G.
Trump disturbs my whole being and soul and I do not know what the world has done to see such a malign person take the most powerful position on the planet
Decades of rampant materialism, greed, and aggression. Generalised disdain for education, and an attitude that your feelz are more important than an expert's knowledge. A commitment to actively promote inequality. Idiotic worship of "celebrity". The emergence of social media for anyone to disseminate any old nonsense they find amuses their juvenile soul. And, now, AI slopaganda everywhere, so no one is exactly sure what is true. These causes and conditions brought together, and it couldn't have been anything other than Trump.
Starmer is now expending his last political capital defending an indefensible Ambassador to Washington that
1. he didn’t have to appoint in the first place, if he only spent 10 minutes doing due diligence he’d have said No way
And
2. He didn’t have to rush out and support yesterday with his full confidence, so now he’s stuck out on a limb of ridiculousness
Starmer is utterly crap at this stuff. He’s really quite dim and has zero political judgment. None
Given the furore that still surrounds every aspect of the Epstein case in the US on both sides of the aisle you really have to wonder whether it is in the interests of UK plc to be represented by someone who is compromised by it.
I'm way past wondering. It clearly isn't.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the Foreign Office are insisting he stays to avoid further questions for Trump?
We can all think "so what?" but if the Sir Humphreys were saying you can't sack him, would you have the guts to do it anyway?
What am I missing ? Wouldn’t it be clear to anyone that making a deal with a paedo should be completely unacceptable, staying in his apartment while he’s in prison is similarly totally unacceptable. How the fxck do you get the job of ambassador to the US with all that already known ?
It is mind boggling
And in the FT Mandelson himself is quoted as saying “there is probably much more to come out”
For me the killer is, as you say, the fact he stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking
There’s no way around that. You can’t say you didn’t know. You knew. And did it anyway
Surely toast
Yes, even if he was "taken in" by the skilful liar that Epstein certainly was (perfectly credible in the context of Mandelson's penchant for networking), at that point there's just no good excuse.
While that doesn't make him any kind of accomplice in Epstein's crimes , it surely renders him utterly unacceptable as a representative of the UK government.
To allow him to carry on would be grotesque.
I do hope that all of those on the right (correctly) calling for Mandelson's head recognise that all of the above, and more, applies to Trump.
Yes of course it applies to Trump. One of the reasons Mandy has to go is because, if he stays, it renders all our critiques of Trump (on this matter) utterly hypocritical and ignorable
The other thing to bear in mind is that Trump has done everything up to and including invading American cities with Marines to get the Epstein story off the front page. The last thing he needs or wants is anyone anywhere near him that risks another headline about it. He will make damn sure he is never caught speaking to or in the same picture as Mandelson.
I wonder if some Labour types are regretting ploughing into Prince Andrew quite so much.
Was it particularly a Labour thing? Istr pretty much everyone (justifiably) putting the boot into non sweaty Andrew.
I think most people think Andrew was an idiot but I did have a tiny bit of sympathy for him in that he was being kicked for remaining friends with Epstein. I don't know how bad someone has to be for them not allowed to talk to other people.
Epstein does seem to have something about him that made people like him. And I don't think it's just for what he could procure for people.
Didn’t Andrew stay in Epstein’s NY appartment well after the paedo stuff was out in the open?
As with Mandy, pretty sure what Andy liked about Epstein was money. Andrew is notorious for loving a freebie (and stupid enough not to realise that there are very few true freebies).
Yes, I think Andy and Mandy are quite similar. That's why Mandy has to be sent away (again).
Starmer is now expending his last political capital defending an indefensible Ambassador to Washington that
1. he didn’t have to appoint in the first place, if he only spent 10 minutes doing due diligence he’d have said No way
And
2. He didn’t have to rush out and support yesterday with his full confidence, so now he’s stuck out on a limb of ridiculousness
Starmer is utterly crap at this stuff. He’s really quite dim and has zero political judgment. None
Given the furore that still surrounds every aspect of the Epstein case in the US on both sides of the aisle you really have to wonder whether it is in the interests of UK plc to be represented by someone who is compromised by it.
I'm way past wondering. It clearly isn't.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the Foreign Office are insisting he stays to avoid further questions for Trump?
We can all think "so what?" but if the Sir Humphreys were saying you can't sack him, would you have the guts to do it anyway?
Personally, yes. Without a shred of doubt.
It's a position which simply isn't tenable, so any such advice (and your guess is quite possible) would be wrong - in practical as well as moral terms.
It will be considerably more embarrassing to the government's relations with Trump if this drags on, is all across the front pages for weeks, and he is eventually forced to resign.
This isn't going to go away. A quick dispatch would at least put a limit on the damage.
Good to see Mandy is an equal opportunities fucker-upper, just as happy to fuck things up for Starmer as he was for Blair...
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
What am I missing ? Wouldn’t it be clear to anyone that making a deal with a paedo should be completely unacceptable, staying in his apartment while he’s in prison is similarly totally unacceptable. How the fxck do you get the job of ambassador to the US with all that already known ?
It is mind boggling
And in the FT Mandelson himself is quoted as saying “there is probably much more to come out”
For me the killer is, as you say, the fact he stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking
There’s no way around that. You can’t say you didn’t know. You knew. And did it anyway
Surely toast
Yes, even if he was "taken in" by the skilful liar that Epstein certainly was (perfectly credible in the context of Mandelson's penchant for networking), at that point there's just no good excuse.
While that doesn't make him any kind of accomplice in Epstein's crimes , it surely renders him utterly unacceptable as a representative of the UK government.
To allow him to carry on would be grotesque.
I do hope that all of those on the right (correctly) calling for Mandelson's head recognise that all of the above, and more, applies to Trump.
Yes of course it applies to Trump. One of the reasons Mandy has to go is because, if he stays, it renders all our critiques of Trump (on this matter) utterly hypocritical and ignorable
The other thing to bear in mind is that Trump has done everything up to and including invading American cities with Marines to get the Epstein story off the front page. The last thing he needs or wants is anyone anywhere near him that risks another headline about it. He will make damn sure he is never caught speaking to or in the same picture as Mandelson.
Yes. I said the same last night
Trump himself will want Mandelson gone. Because every time Mandy appears everyone will be reminded of Epstein - and Trump’s creepy birthday card to Epstein, and all the rest
Good to see Mandy is an equal opportunities fucker-upper, just as happy to fuck things up for Starmer as he was for Blair...
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
For those who're comparing Trump and Mandelson, I don't think that comparison holds given the timings of the two.
Trump is a dodgy twat who should be gone for his own dealings, but AFAIK his Epstein dealings happened before Epstein was convicted.
If I understand correctly, Mandelson was taking freebies from Epstein AFTER Epstein had been convicted.
How self-absorbed and mendacious do you have to be to take freebies from someone in jail after they've been convicted.
On this one matter, Mandelson is even worse than Trump. To be a worse grifter and more mendacious than Trump is quite a low bar to slither under.
That's wrong. Trump subsequently the guy who arranged Epstein's seriously dodgy plea deal.
And clearly Trump is still trying to bury whatever evidence there is of the reality of his relations with Epstein. With every power available to his administration.
I wonder if some Labour types are regretting ploughing into Prince Andrew quite so much.
Was it particularly a Labour thing? Istr pretty much everyone (justifiably) putting the boot into non sweaty Andrew.
I think most people think Andrew was an idiot but I did have a tiny bit of sympathy for him in that he was being kicked for remaining friends with Epstein. I don't know how bad someone has to be for them not allowed to talk to other people.
Epstein does seem to have something about him that made people like him. And I don't think it's just for what he could procure for people.
Didn’t Andrew stay in Epstein’s NY appartment well after the paedo stuff was out in the open?
As with Mandy, pretty sure what Andy liked about Epstein was money. Andrew is notorious for loving a freebie (and stupid enough not to realise that there are very few true freebies).
Why can't people grasp, There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch?
Sky have a big programme on Immigration tonight hosted by Trevor Phillips and Sam Coates has a yougov poll showing 70% think immigration is too high
I'm surprised it's only 70% - I'd expect it to be higher. There's a pretty broad consensus, including among most parts of the left, that immigration has been too high over the last few years, so it's hardly a revelation. Legal immigration is falling pretty rapidly now, although that will take time to enter the public consciousness. Of course many people see small boat crossings, a small percentage of the total, as a proxy for immigration - so the challenge for the government is both to counter that perception and to reduce such crossings as far as possible.
I think the key question is how quickly the current large fall in immigration does enter the public consciousness. Should Labour be doing more to get that message out? The 2024 figure is less than half the 2022 figure, but people might think the 2024 figure is still relatively high. I presume the 2025 figure will be lower than the 2024 figure.
The reduction is entirely due to Sunak's changes and may well come down further
However, what you are underestimating is that the public don't just want the boats stopped, but a growing number want all immigration stopped
The public was repeatedly promised net migration "in the tens of thousands". And is still waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.
Well, the public were promised that by a political party who they voted out of office. The current administration did not make such a promise, AFAIR. They did promise to reduce immigration and they have done that.
Here's what Labour promised, from their manifesto:
But under the Conservatives, our economy has become overly dependent on workers from abroad to fill skills shortages. As a result, we have seen net migration reach record highs; more than triple the level than at the last election in 2019. The overall level must be properly controlled and managed. Failure to do so reduces the incentives for businesses to train locally. So, Labour will reduce net migration.
We will reform the points-based immigration system so that it is fair and properly managed, with appropriate restrictions on visas, and by linking immigration and skills policy. Labour will not tolerate employers or recruitment agencies abusing the visa system. And we will not stand for breaches of employment law. Employers who flout the rules will be barred from hiring workers from abroad.
For those who're comparing Trump and Mandelson, I don't think that comparison holds given the timings of the two.
Trump is a dodgy twat who should be gone for his own dealings, but AFAIK his Epstein dealings happened before Epstein was convicted.
If I understand correctly, Mandelson was taking freebies from Epstein AFTER Epstein had been convicted.
How self-absorbed and mendacious do you have to be to take freebies from someone in jail after they've been convicted.
On this one matter, Mandelson is even worse than Trump. To be a worse grifter and more mendacious than Trump is quite a low bar to slither under.
That's wrong. Trump subsequently the guy who arranged Epstein's seriously dodgy plea deal.
And clearly Trump is still trying to bury whatever evidence there is of the reality of his relations with Epstein. With every power available to his administration.
Yes, Trump is trying to bury the evidence but every bit of evidence we've seen comes from before he was convicted. Negotiations for a plea deal etc are before conviction too.
Mandelson taking a freebie AFTER the conviction is a different timing, and worse in my eyes.
Both are bad, no excuses for Trump, but to do so AFTER the conviction? Only Mandelson AFAIK did that.
Good to see Mandy is an equal opportunities fucker-upper, just as happy to fuck things up for Starmer as he was for Blair...
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
Maybe the stories aren’t true, just apocryphal ?
Like the mushy peas story, which is good but just not quite credible.
Good to see Mandy is an equal opportunities fucker-upper, just as happy to fuck things up for Starmer as he was for Blair...
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
Maybe the stories aren’t true, just apocryphal ?
My sources are at the heart of plenty of, er, interesting stuff! They don't deal in apocryphal...
For those who're comparing Trump and Mandelson, I don't think that comparison holds given the timings of the two.
Trump is a dodgy twat who should be gone for his own dealings, but AFAIK his Epstein dealings happened before Epstein was convicted.
If I understand correctly, Mandelson was taking freebies from Epstein AFTER Epstein had been convicted.
How self-absorbed and mendacious do you have to be to take freebies from someone in jail after they've been convicted.
On this one matter, Mandelson is even worse than Trump. To be a worse grifter and more mendacious than Trump is quite a low bar to slither under.
That's wrong. Trump subsequently the guy who arranged Epstein's seriously dodgy plea deal.
And clearly Trump is still trying to bury whatever evidence there is of the reality of his relations with Epstein. With every power available to his administration.
Yes, Trump is trying to bury the evidence but every bit of evidence we've seen comes from before he was convicted. Negotiations for a plea deal etc are before conviction too.
Mandelson taking a freebie AFTER the conviction is a different timing, and worse in my eyes.
Both are bad, no excuses for Trump, but to do so AFTER the conviction? Only Mandelson AFAIK did that.
Isn't moving Maxwell to a low security prison as a quid pro quo examples of problematic Trump behaviour AFTER conviction?
For those who're comparing Trump and Mandelson, I don't think that comparison holds given the timings of the two.
Trump is a dodgy twat who should be gone for his own dealings, but AFAIK his Epstein dealings happened before Epstein was convicted.
If I understand correctly, Mandelson was taking freebies from Epstein AFTER Epstein had been convicted.
How self-absorbed and mendacious do you have to be to take freebies from someone in jail after they've been convicted.
On this one matter, Mandelson is even worse than Trump. To be a worse grifter and more mendacious than Trump is quite a low bar to slither under.
That's wrong. Trump subsequently the guy who arranged Epstein's seriously dodgy plea deal.
And clearly Trump is still trying to bury whatever evidence there is of the reality of his relations with Epstein. With every power available to his administration.
Yes, Trump is trying to bury the evidence but every bit of evidence we've seen comes from before he was convicted. Negotiations for a plea deal etc are before conviction too.
Mandelson taking a freebie AFTER the conviction is a different timing, and worse in my eyes.
Both are bad, no excuses for Trump, but to do so AFTER the conviction? Only Mandelson AFAIK did that.
But on a practical level, he's in jail so not in a position to kick you out his house.
But also on a practical level - did Mandy have a set of keys to Epstein's place?
The Labour Party also has a significant problem with Mandelson,
The man continues to manage to inveigle himself back into the top echelons of government despite his very questionable judgement. Ive never been quite sure why they have always thought this to be OK.
It would make for great sport if it was dragged out through the conference period. Incessant questions about Lord Yum Yum and Starmer's judgement.. marvellous!
The Labour Party also has a significant problem with Mandelson,
The man continues to manage to inveigle himself back into the top echelons of government despite his very questionable judgement. Ive never been quite sure why they have always thought this to be OK.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
I think sending cruise missiles into Russian drone factories would be a proportionate response to their drone attack on Poland last night, and would make it unlikely Russia would attack NATO with drones again.
If we brush it off at no big deal they will attack again and escalate further.
If the Poles want to send six drones into Russian airspace in response that would be up to them, anything else would be a disproportionate escalation
Poland are in NATO and have come under attack from Russia and in these circumstances it is de facto a NATO issue
If you want to be seen as a Putin appeaser so be it
Putin also has more nuclear missiles than anyone else on earth. Putin's ally Belarus have now said the drones were sent in error into Poland, the drones have been shot down by the Poles in response, I would leave it there.
That is not yet the response from NATO, which is why the Russians are now trying to walk things back a little, given the very vigorous response from Warsaw. The drone attack is not accidental, it is a deliberate provocation of NATO, which has been expected for some time. The forced closure of Warsaw Airport amongst others is not something the Poles will or can ignore - hence the disinformation story from Minsk that its all a little misunderstanding. In fact the NATO walk back will come only after a proportionate response is made and the Russians are trying to mitigate the response they know is coming. This could include helping the Ukrainians to destroy a significant Russian asset such as further refinery strikes or the Kerch bridge or even a further drone attack on Murmansk or other strategic assets.
Can you imagine if Heathrow and Brize Norton had been closed in such a manner? The Poles are rightly furious.
While I would not wish to test it, the efficiency of the Russian nuclear triad is an open question. Since NATO too has nuclear forces, the need for restraint cuts both ways and the Russians just made a big mistake. They know the game and also know that their provocation will be answered. This is not WWIII, and Putin is the problem here, not NATO.
The other thing open to question, though, is the capability of European air defence. We do not seem presently to have the capacity to reliably intercept these drones (and there were only a score of them this time, not several hundred)
Probing Europe's air defences was surely part of this thing ?
Yes of course, and he knew that either the Patriots would have to be fired or the Jets scrambled. Both are expensive, so that tells them that the cheaper anti drone systems have not yet been deployed in Poland, whereas they probably have been in the Baltic. However he must now pay a price for putting the Polish SP into the sky.
Polish Deputy Speaker Krzysztof Bosak says around 20 drones violated Polish airspace overnight, some shot down with allied help. He warns Poland is nearly defenseless without allies and criticizes the ongoing paralysis in funding anti-drone defenses. “We have money for everything, except protecting our skies,” he said. https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1965733644711952451
What am I missing ? Wouldn’t it be clear to anyone that making a deal with a paedo should be completely unacceptable, staying in his apartment while he’s in prison is similarly totally unacceptable. How the fxck do you get the job of ambassador to the US with all that already known ?
It is mind boggling
And in the FT Mandelson himself is quoted as saying “there is probably much more to come out”
For me the killer is, as you say, the fact he stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking
There’s no way around that. You can’t say you didn’t know. You knew. And did it anyway
Surely toast
Yes, even if he was "taken in" by the skilful liar that Epstein certainly was (perfectly credible in the context of Mandelson's penchant for networking), at that point there's just no good excuse.
While that doesn't make him any kind of accomplice in Epstein's crimes , it surely renders him utterly unacceptable as a representative of the UK government.
To allow him to carry on would be grotesque.
I do hope that all of those on the right (correctly) calling for Mandelson's head recognise that all of the above, and more, applies to Trump.
Yes of course it applies to Trump. One of the reasons Mandy has to go is because, if he stays, it renders all our critiques of Trump (on this matter) utterly hypocritical and ignorable
The other thing to bear in mind is that Trump has done everything up to and including invading American cities with Marines to get the Epstein story off the front page. The last thing he needs or wants is anyone anywhere near him that risks another headline about it. He will make damn sure he is never caught speaking to or in the same picture as Mandelson.
Otoh a Mandy resignation over Epstein IS a headline.
Germany's Minister of Defence Boris Pistorius just announced during the questioning of the federal government that, according to Polish information, the 19 loitering munitions were deliberately sent from Belarusian territory into Polish territory.
There is no reason to suspect that course corrections, errors or other factors were the reason for the Russian UAVs violating Polish airspace. If Russia had wanted to use them against Ukraine, they would not have had to fly this route. https://x.com/deaidua/status/1965741000955183264
At least we're no longer pretending it was accidental.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
Starmer won’t sack Mandelson. He’ll ask him to resign . Even if that happens this shouldn’t end the matter .
He was made ambassador when it was known he had stayed in Epsteins apartment whilst he was in prison.
Any politician who isn’t a complete moron would have not gone anywhere near Mandelson .
And his comments about Rayner in attempting to embarrass Badenoch were a disgrace , to stab her in the back like that.
This puff piece about his appointment made me laugh.
“ “He’s a big, serious figure for big, serious work,” a Starmer aide said to me recently. “Team Trump can have confidence that this is a serious operator with the confidence and ear of the prime minister.”
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
But how many of these are pretty and blond? I think you are missing the point.
Starmer won’t sack Mandelson. He’ll ask him to resign . Even if that happens this shouldn’t end the matter .
He was made ambassador when it was known he had stayed in Epsteins apartment whilst he was in prison.
Any politician who isn’t a complete moron would have not gone anywhere near Mandelson .
And his comments about Rayner in attempting to embarrass Badenoch were a disgrace , to stab her in the back like that.
That was a bizarre line. I had to play it back to make sure I’d heard it correctly.
He actually did try to score a political point off the LOTO not asking the right questions about his own deputy’s wrongdoing?
I'm beginning to wonder if the McLibel Two should have had a different legal advisor. They might have got off altogether!
Have you been listening to the series about it on R4? In the bits I’ve heard they’ve actually been pretty complimentary about Starmer, and he sounds normal. Where/when did it all go wrong?
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
America (and the UK) needs to bring back the loony bin for these kinds of dangerous criminals. We just had that case where a lunatic was let on day release by the NHS and he went on to murder 3 people.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
Starmer won’t sack Mandelson. He’ll ask him to resign . Even if that happens this shouldn’t end the matter .
He was made ambassador when it was known he had stayed in Epsteins apartment whilst he was in prison.
Any politician who isn’t a complete moron would have not gone anywhere near Mandelson .
And his comments about Rayner in attempting to embarrass Badenoch were a disgrace , to stab her in the back like that.
That was a bizarre line. I had to play it back to make sure I’d heard it correctly.
He actually did try to score a political point off the LOTO not asking the right questions about his own deputy’s wrongdoing?
I'm beginning to wonder if the McLibel Two should have had a different legal advisor. They might have got off altogether!
Have you been listening to the series about it on R4? In the bits I’ve heard they’ve been pretty complimentary about Starmer, and he sounds normal. Where/when did it all go wrong?
NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte spoke to reporters about Russian drone incursion into Poland, a key NATO ally.
“Last night, numerous drones from Russia violated Polish airspace. Our air defences were activated and successfully ensured the defence of NATO territory, as they are designed to do. Several Allies were involved alongside Poland. This included Polish F16s, Dutch F35s, Italian AWACS, NATO Multi Role Tanker Transport, and German Patriots. I commend the pilots and all who contributed to this quick and skillful response.” https://x.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1965741561813078494
The AIM 120s used to shoot some of them down cost well over $1m. A Patriot, depending on the model, is $2m or more.
And that's ignoring the cost of having all those very expensive asserts airborne.
A Shaheed type drone costs somewhere between $10 and $50k.
The US ordered 45,000 of BAE's APKWS warheads for drone interception, which represent perhaps $40k per shot. We have yet to order any in quantity, despite developing and manufacturing them, and despite the fact that we're the ones facing the near term threat.
Big win for new Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Department for Transport (and Selby MP) https://x.com/transportgovuk/status/1964967200806384048 (not really of course, local government decision, down to the new Labour N Yorks mayor, no doubt )
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
But how many of these are pretty and blond? I think you are missing the point.
Not sure, quite a lot of them are kids and they do FA to address that. Are you suggesting that law enforcement priorities in the US are set by Epstein-adjacent creepy middle-aged men? See your point.
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
According to the https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php military power rankings, NATO without the US still contains the 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 14th, 17th, 21st, 27th, 28th and 30th strongest countries in the world. NATO without the US combined has the second largest aircraft carrier fleet in the world (after the US). If you add up the number of active military personnel, NATO without the US comes in second (after China).
But it's my understanding that in things like key weaponry, intelligence, surveillance, command and control, it's America and American capabilities that makes NATO what it is.
That need not be the case. Europe has its own AEW capability; several different military aircraft manufacturers; ditto missile manufactures; ditto armoured vehicles.
Trump has clearly demonstrated that over reliance on US kit represents a strategic risk. We should take more of an Israeli attitude to buying from the US: anything we don't have full and unrestricted control over shouldn't be an option.
Obvious comment, I know, but this should have started ages ago rather than waiting for the US to elect a hostile cowboy president. But things rarely happen that way, do they. When you have a situation that works for you, you just carry on with it until something forces you to change.
The west has been in denial for decades. We could not see a threat that required a large military force, partly because it was convenient. China was relatively friendly, and provided us with loads of plastic crud. Russia was giving us oodles of cheap oil and gas. Who else was there that would require a Cold War style military?
The peace dividend we have been spending since the early 1990s ignored one simple fact; that countries can turn from friendly to foe within a few years. In WW1 Japan was firmly aligned with the UK; twenty years later we were enemies.
Re the last sentence; that was, I was once told by an Australian academic in Thailand, at least partly due to the Americans.
I believe that is correct. We had a treaty with the Japanese and were minded to renew it, but the US told us that they wouldn't look favourably on us doing so. And we didn't.
Yes, that's more or less what I was told. The royalist and militaristic Japanese Government were sympathetic to idea of being allied to another monarchy, even one like ours, but didn't like the republican Americans. However the Americans wanted the North Pacific as an 'American lake'.
Er no.
It was about lessons from WWI.
Alliance were seen as part of the cause of WWI.
So as part of the Washington Naval Treaty system, close alliances between those in the Treaty had to go.
The idea was that without such alliances, it would be impossible for a country to launch a naval attack on another - not enough superiority.
So Japan (One ocean power) would be in stalemate/balance with the US (two ocean power) and also the U.K. (two ocean power) - none of them could threaten either of the other two successfully. *providing naval alliances were not a thing*.
So went the theory.
Similar in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.
The idea was to block arms races & make offensive naval warfare pretty much impossible.
Japan’s descent into Fascism was already well underway in the 1920s - the U.K. withdrawing from the treaties/cooperation
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Is NAT0 not followed by NAT1?
I quite like PEWTY - Protecting Europe Without The Yanks
"Putin has to understand that if he attacks a PEWTY country there'll be hell to pay. Russia has a large army but it's no match for PEWTY."
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
The perpetrator had been jailed and released several times. And was in addition flagged as having mental health problems.
One political angle is whether sentencing is now too lenient for violent crimes. The "three strikes" policy was clearly unjust and draconian in its application, but this guy had passed through the system (I think) seven times. (The US still jails at a rate far greater than just about any other developed country, so it's obviously not a solution in of itself.)
Another angle, obviously, is the inadequacy of funding not only for law enforcement, but also for mental health treatment for offenders like this guy. This administration has cut both.
So there's no single clear political angle, much as the shitposters on X would like.
Good to see Mandy is an equal opportunities fucker-upper, just as happy to fuck things up for Starmer as he was for Blair...
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
Maybe the stories aren’t true, just apocryphal ?
My sources are at the heart of plenty of, er, interesting stuff! They don't deal in apocryphal...
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 33m It’s not possible to overstate how much trouble Starmer’s now in on Mandelson, having backed him in the House.
Hodges is wrong yet again, of course it is possible. How about "Starmer will not just have to resign, but will be found guilty of treason, hung, drawn and quartered, sent to hell for eternity, and be forced to become a Man United fan". I suspect that overstates it quite substantially.
It's not Starmer resignation but Mandelson that is on the line but Starmer prevarication is not helping him at all
Sure Mandelson will probably have to go. It makes almost no long term difference to Starmer. His fate rests on ending asylum hotels, a big reduction in the boats combined with the fluctuations of the global economy, not this.
Not quite sure this is right. How about this progression; could it be where the media/opposition go?
1) Mandelson had a significant relationship with Epstein both before and after he went to prison for sex offences.including post prison business consultancy. (This looks certain)
2) M must have been fully vetted before the ambassadorial appointment. (This must be true)
3) Starmer must have been advised of the relevant facts. (This must be true, especially as M has form from the past, but no doubt attempts can be made to fudge it)
4) If 1-3 above are true and established, then M's appointment is a potential resignation issue for Starmer.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
The perpetrator had been jailed and released several times. And was in addition flagged as having mental health problems.
One political angle is whether sentencing is now too lenient for violent crimes. The "three strikes" policy was clearly unjust and draconian in its application, but this guy had passed through the system (I think) seven times.
Another angle, obviously, is the inadequacy of funding not only for law enforcement, but also for mental health treatment for offenders like this guy. This administration has cut both.
So there's no single clear political angle, much as the shitposters on X would like.
The political, or maybe at least malfeasance in public office, aspect is the judge, she owns part of a company that benefits from these kinds of people being released into the community rather than being imprisoned.
As I said, America needs to bring back the loony bin for these kinds of people and so do we. They are a danger to society and until there's a better way to deal with them that doesn't rely on them taking medication without supervision, keeping them out of society is the answer.
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Is NAT0 not followed by NAT1?
I quite like PEWTY - Protecting Europe Without The Yanks
"Putin has to understand that if he attacks a PEWTY country there'll be hell to pay. Russia has a large army but it's no match for PEWTY."
How about the Projecting Unity Together in NATO sub-group? Then Putin would have to spend a lot of time saying how PUTIN was a big threat to Russia, fascist, undemocratic etc etc
Germany's Minister of Defence Boris Pistorius just announced during the questioning of the federal government that, according to Polish information, the 19 loitering munitions were deliberately sent from Belarusian territory into Polish territory.
There is no reason to suspect that course corrections, errors or other factors were the reason for the Russian UAVs violating Polish airspace. If Russia had wanted to use them against Ukraine, they would not have had to fly this route. https://x.com/deaidua/status/1965741000955183264
At least we're no longer pretending it was accidental.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
That was true of the George Floyd case too.
That was totemic of police brutality against black men.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
That was true of the George Floyd case too.
and they haven't stopped employing extremely racist people as police officers. Some of the measures aren't difficult.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Meanwhile, Trump is deporting Russian refugees from Putin back to Russia ...
NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte spoke to reporters about Russian drone incursion into Poland, a key NATO ally.
“Last night, numerous drones from Russia violated Polish airspace. Our air defences were activated and successfully ensured the defence of NATO territory, as they are designed to do. Several Allies were involved alongside Poland. This included Polish F16s, Dutch F35s, Italian AWACS, NATO Multi Role Tanker Transport, and German Patriots. I commend the pilots and all who contributed to this quick and skillful response.” https://x.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1965741561813078494
The AIM 120s used to shoot some of them down cost well over $1m. A Patriot, depending on the model, is $2m or more.
And that's ignoring the cost of having all those very expensive asserts airborne.
A Shaheed type drone costs somewhere between $10 and $50k.
The US ordered 45,000 of BAE's APKWS warheads for drone interception, which represent perhaps $40k per shot. We have yet to order any in quantity, despite developing and manufacturing them, and despite the fact that we're the ones facing the near term threat.
Rutte is a buffoon.
He's not alone. Our entire defence establishment would rather have 1 fantastic piece of kit than 20 ordinary pieces. Even after Ukraine has proven once again that in a war that lasts more than a few weeks numbers are absolutely everything. We need cheap, cheerful and plentiful kit. Right now, not in 10 years time after endless committees have spiralled the costs to something acceptable to our arms industries desired profit margins. We should be buying licences off Ukraine who are far more effective at intercepting drones than all that kit was last night, and get building. Now.
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Is NAT0 not followed by NAT1?
I quite like PEWTY - Protecting Europe Without The Yanks
"Putin has to understand that if he attacks a PEWTY country there'll be hell to pay. Russia has a large army but it's no match for PEWTY."
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
According to the https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php military power rankings, NATO without the US still contains the 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 14th, 17th, 21st, 27th, 28th and 30th strongest countries in the world. NATO without the US combined has the second largest aircraft carrier fleet in the world (after the US). If you add up the number of active military personnel, NATO without the US comes in second (after China).
But it's my understanding that in things like key weaponry, intelligence, surveillance, command and control, it's America and American capabilities that makes NATO what it is.
That need not be the case. Europe has its own AEW capability; several different military aircraft manufacturers; ditto missile manufactures; ditto armoured vehicles.
Trump has clearly demonstrated that over reliance on US kit represents a strategic risk. We should take more of an Israeli attitude to buying from the US: anything we don't have full and unrestricted control over shouldn't be an option.
Obvious comment, I know, but this should have started ages ago rather than waiting for the US to elect a hostile cowboy president. But things rarely happen that way, do they. When you have a situation that works for you, you just carry on with it until something forces you to change.
The west has been in denial for decades. We could not see a threat that required a large military force, partly because it was convenient. China was relatively friendly, and provided us with loads of plastic crud. Russia was giving us oodles of cheap oil and gas. Who else was there that would require a Cold War style military?
The peace dividend we have been spending since the early 1990s ignored one simple fact; that countries can turn from friendly to foe within a few years. In WW1 Japan was firmly aligned with the UK; twenty years later we were enemies.
Re the last sentence; that was, I was once told by an Australian academic in Thailand, at least partly due to the Americans.
I believe that is correct. We had a treaty with the Japanese and were minded to renew it, but the US told us that they wouldn't look favourably on us doing so. And we didn't.
Yes, that's more or less what I was told. The royalist and militaristic Japanese Government were sympathetic to idea of being allied to another monarchy, even one like ours, but didn't like the republican Americans. However the Americans wanted the North Pacific as an 'American lake'.
Er no.
It was about lessons from WWI.
Alliance were seen as part of the cause of WWI.
So as part of the Washington Naval Treaty system, close alliances between those in the Treaty had to go.
The idea was that without such alliances, it would be impossible for a country to launch a naval attack on another - not enough superiority.
So Japan (One ocean power) would be in stalemate/balance with the US (two ocean power) and also the U.K. (two ocean power) - none of them could threaten either of the other two successfully. *providing naval alliances were not a thing*.
So went the theory.
Similar in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.
The idea was to block arms races & make offensive naval warfare pretty much impossible.
Japan’s descent into Fascism was already well underway in the 1920s - the U.K. withdrawing from the treaties/cooperation
I did wonder whether the account we were being given would stand up to informed criticism.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
That was true of the George Floyd case too.
That was totemic of police brutality against black men.
Maybe Keir Starmer will finally catch a break and Suella will be defecting to Reform
I would have thought Farage would be there if she was defecting . But why else would she be there if she wasn’t defecting ?
She might be trying to give herself the role of the person bringing the Conservatves and Reform together? Talking electoral pacts? Either kite flying - or (if they don't go for it) slamming the door on the Tories...
‘ For Labour to have kicked out MPs for being on a stage with Ken Loach or retweeting Maxine Peak, but allowing the close mate of history's most prolific paedophile to be ambassador to the US shows complete moral bankruptcy. A horrific decision that will haunt us for years.’
Maybe Keir Starmer will finally catch a break and Suella will be defecting to Reform
I would have thought Farage would be there if she was defecting . But why else would she be there if she wasn’t defecting ?
You dont pre announce defections like that and if she was jumping it would have been with much hurrah at conference instead of Mad Nad id have thought. Still, stranger things and all
FFS Starmer . What has Mandelson got on Starmer that he’s impossible to remove .
The longer Lord Yum Yum clings on to his job before eventually removed, the more damage he will do to Starmer, Starmer’s government, and the Labour Party. Simples.
To be fair, the Labour brand is so Raynered there's not much further to fall...
Rayner was defenestrated within a working week, probably two or three days later than was optimal Starmer, on the other hand didn't attempt to save her by disposing of the Ministerial Code.
Labour maybe on a 3/10 in terms of integrity, however your team are still in negative figures, and lo and behold up comes Johnson in the Guardian to take your party even lower whilst out of Government.
The Conservative brand is so Johnsoned and yet even out of office he drags them down even further.
More, fuck, Labour are looking as bad as the Tories - quick, fling some shit at Boris...
Another worrying thing about the drone incident is that we were using F35s to shoot down cheap drones. And we didn't even manage to shoot them all down.
If another European country were facing the kind of mass attacks that Ukraine faces, that simply isn't sustainable for much more than a couple of weeks.
In a world without the US element of the NATO guarantee, what, in our current capacity, is to prevent Russia threatening or blackmailing some of the smaller European states ? It's not as though international norms will do that.
This is what I keep thinking - what is the point of NATO article 5 if America are no longer underwriting it?
In fact what is NATO without America?
It is everyone else.
The rest of the members (with the possible exception of Hungary) have a very strong shared interest in containing Russia - and the economic and military capacity to do so. All they lack currently is the determination.
If the US doesn't like it, we can label it something other than NATO.
NEATO. North East Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The successor to NATO should obviously be called NATWO.
Is NAT0 not followed by NAT1?
I quite like PEWTY - Protecting Europe Without The Yanks
"Putin has to understand that if he attacks a PEWTY country there'll be hell to pay. Russia has a large army but it's no match for PEWTY."
ECTO or CETO
Europe and Canada Treaty Organisation or Canada and Europe Treaty Organisation.
It' s essential for us to support Canada and Canada to support us.
Or CANTO (which is also a beautiful Danteesque word in itself) - Canada and North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 33m It’s not possible to overstate how much trouble Starmer’s now in on Mandelson, having backed him in the House.
Hodges is wrong yet again, of course it is possible. How about "Starmer will not just have to resign, but will be found guilty of treason, hung, drawn and quartered, sent to hell for eternity, and be forced to become a Man United fan". I suspect that overstates it quite substantially.
It's not Starmer resignation but Mandelson that is on the line but Starmer prevarication is not helping him at all
Sure Mandelson will probably have to go. It makes almost no long term difference to Starmer. His fate rests on ending asylum hotels, a big reduction in the boats combined with the fluctuations of the global economy, not this.
Not quite sure this is right. How about this progression; could it be where the media/opposition go?
1) Mandelson had a significant relationship with Epstein both before and after he went to prison for sex offences.including post prison business consultancy. (This looks certain)
2) M must have been fully vetted before the ambassadorial appointment. (This must be true)
3) Starmer must have been advised of the relevant facts. (This must be true, especially as M has form from the past, but no doubt attempts can be made to fudge it)
4) If 1-3 above are true and established, then M's appointment is a potential resignation issue for Starmer.
What do others think?
A fair summary. Similar to Pincher, though higher profile.
What am I missing ? Wouldn’t it be clear to anyone that making a deal with a paedo should be completely unacceptable, staying in his apartment while he’s in prison is similarly totally unacceptable. How the fxck do you get the job of ambassador to the US with all that already known ?
It is mind boggling
And in the FT Mandelson himself is quoted as saying “there is probably much more to come out”
For me the killer is, as you say, the fact he stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking
There’s no way around that. You can’t say you didn’t know. You knew. And did it anyway
Surely toast
Yup, the veneer of plausible deniability has gone. I also saw people defending Mandy on the basis that he wouldn't be interested in the underage girls that Epstein was procuring, but is it difficult to imagine that he wouldn't also be able to procure underage boys too?!
Epstein had quite a few famously gay guests. Eg the actor and disgraced sex offender Kevin Spacey. I presume that he was attracted to pedo island by the yummy yum yum omelettes
Snails, oysters, and Waldorf Salad.
Has anyone actually claimed “Lord Yum Yum stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking” - did that actually happen? Because as you say, if true, that’s the archetypal smoking gun. There will be defence if that’s a fact.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 33m It’s not possible to overstate how much trouble Starmer’s now in on Mandelson, having backed him in the House.
Hodges is wrong yet again, of course it is possible. How about "Starmer will not just have to resign, but will be found guilty of treason, hung, drawn and quartered, sent to hell for eternity, and be forced to become a Man United fan". I suspect that overstates it quite substantially.
It's not Starmer resignation but Mandelson that is on the line but Starmer prevarication is not helping him at all
Sure Mandelson will probably have to go. It makes almost no long term difference to Starmer. His fate rests on ending asylum hotels, a big reduction in the boats combined with the fluctuations of the global economy, not this.
Not quite sure this is right. How about this progression; could it be where the media/opposition go?
1) Mandelson had a significant relationship with Epstein both before and after he went to prison for sex offences.including post prison business consultancy. (This looks certain)
2) M must have been fully vetted before the ambassadorial appointment. (This must be true)
3) Starmer must have been advised of the relevant facts. (This must be true, especially as M has form from the past, but no doubt attempts can be made to fudge it)
4) If 1-3 above are true and established, then M's appointment is a potential resignation issue for Starmer.
What do others think?
A fair summary. Similar to Pincher, though higher profile.
Leaving us with (checks notes) Prime Minister David Lammy?!
Maybe Keir Starmer will finally catch a break and Suella will be defecting to Reform
I would have thought Farage would be there if she was defecting . But why else would she be there if she wasn’t defecting ?
She might be trying to give herself the role of the person bringing the Conservatves and Reform together? Talking electoral pacts? Either kite flying - or (if they don't go for it) slamming the door on the Tories...
Perhaps Suella is going to provide the intellectual underpinning for Reform.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 33m It’s not possible to overstate how much trouble Starmer’s now in on Mandelson, having backed him in the House.
Hodges is wrong yet again, of course it is possible. How about "Starmer will not just have to resign, but will be found guilty of treason, hung, drawn and quartered, sent to hell for eternity, and be forced to become a Man United fan". I suspect that overstates it quite substantially.
It's not Starmer resignation but Mandelson that is on the line but Starmer prevarication is not helping him at all
Sure Mandelson will probably have to go. It makes almost no long term difference to Starmer. His fate rests on ending asylum hotels, a big reduction in the boats combined with the fluctuations of the global economy, not this.
Not quite sure this is right. How about this progression; could it be where the media/opposition go?
1) Mandelson had a significant relationship with Epstein both before and after he went to prison for sex offences.including post prison business consultancy. (This looks certain)
2) M must have been fully vetted before the ambassadorial appointment. (This must be true)
3) Starmer must have been advised of the relevant facts. (This must be true, especially as M has form from the past, but no doubt attempts can be made to fudge it)
4) If 1-3 above are true and established, then M's appointment is a potential resignation issue for Starmer.
What do others think?
A fair summary. Similar to Pincher, though higher profile.
13.5 on Betfair for Starmer to go in 2025, next PM would be Labour and won't be Rayner or Burnham, going to need a safe pair of hands. Milliband, McFadden are both available at 85
NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte spoke to reporters about Russian drone incursion into Poland, a key NATO ally.
“Last night, numerous drones from Russia violated Polish airspace. Our air defences were activated and successfully ensured the defence of NATO territory, as they are designed to do. Several Allies were involved alongside Poland. This included Polish F16s, Dutch F35s, Italian AWACS, NATO Multi Role Tanker Transport, and German Patriots. I commend the pilots and all who contributed to this quick and skillful response.” https://x.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1965741561813078494
The AIM 120s used to shoot some of them down cost well over $1m. A Patriot, depending on the model, is $2m or more.
And that's ignoring the cost of having all those very expensive asserts airborne.
A Shaheed type drone costs somewhere between $10 and $50k.
The US ordered 45,000 of BAE's APKWS warheads for drone interception, which represent perhaps $40k per shot. We have yet to order any in quantity, despite developing and manufacturing them, and despite the fact that we're the ones facing the near term threat.
Rutte is a buffoon.
He's not alone. Our entire defence establishment would rather have 1 fantastic piece of kit than 20 ordinary pieces. Even after Ukraine has proven once again that in a war that lasts more than a few weeks numbers are absolutely everything. We need cheap, cheerful and plentiful kit. Right now, not in 10 years time after endless committees have spiralled the costs to something acceptable to our arms industries desired profit margins. We should be buying licences off Ukraine who are far more effective at intercepting drones than all that kit was last night, and get building. Now.
Germany has recognised that in their planned order of hundreds of the modern equivalent of the very effective Gepard which Ukraine is using to shoot down hundreds of drones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyranger_35
There isn't a single solution, but that's one; APKWS would be another already available. Anti-drone drones (as already fielded in Ukraine) would be another.
It will be interesting to see the detailed consequences of the defence review, and what lessons they have and haven't yet learned.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died
This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges
Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
Not a psycho, apparently.
There are 65 homicides per day in the US, 49 firearm related. Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
That was true of the George Floyd case too.
That was totemic of police brutality against black men.
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died
This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges
Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there
She will now become a white George Floyd
Will your creaky old bones manage repeatedly taking the knee?
Comments
I’m sure they’ll achieve the standard we’ve come to expect from them.
https://www.youtube.com/live/aJ-x3Qy1WhA?si=nkkOiyP8AAJOC4gk
As with Mandy, pretty sure what Andy liked about Epstein was money. Andrew is notorious for loving a freebie (and stupid enough not to realise that there are very few true freebies).
The emergence of social media for anyone to disseminate any old nonsense they find amuses their juvenile soul.
And, now, AI slopaganda everywhere, so no one is exactly sure what is true.
These causes and conditions brought together, and it couldn't have been anything other than Trump.
We can all think "so what?" but if the Sir Humphreys were saying you can't sack him, would you have the guts to do it anyway?
Starmers year 1 feels like the Tories year 4 !!!!
Amazed
Former Premier League referee David Coote charged with making indecent image of child
Former official due to appear in court on Thursday
Allegation refers to video recovered by police in February
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/sep/10/former-premier-league-referee-david-coote-charged-with-making-indecent-image-of-child
Trump is a dodgy twat who should be gone for his own dealings, but AFAIK his Epstein dealings happened before Epstein was convicted.
If I understand correctly, Mandelson was taking freebies from Epstein AFTER Epstein had been convicted.
How self-absorbed and mendacious do you have to be to take freebies from someone in jail after they've been convicted.
On this one matter, Mandelson is even worse than Trump. To be a worse grifter and more mendacious than Trump is quite a low bar to slither under.
It's a position which simply isn't tenable, so any such advice (and your guess is quite possible) would be wrong - in practical as well as moral terms.
It will be considerably more embarrassing to the government's relations with Trump if this drags on, is all across the front pages for weeks, and he is eventually forced to resign.
This isn't going to go away. A quick dispatch would at least put a limit on the damage.
I wonder if REALLY embarrassing stories about Mandy will ever hit the mainstream? If I've heard the stories, you'd think Starmer and the vetting team would have heard them too... Given his record, it's not as if you'd give him a pass, heh?
Trump himself will want Mandelson gone. Because every time Mandy appears everyone will be reminded of Epstein - and Trump’s creepy birthday card to Epstein, and all the rest
Mandelson out by the weekend is my prediction
Before the Sunday papers.
So, Monday then...
Trump subsequently the guy who arranged Epstein's seriously dodgy plea deal.
And clearly Trump is still trying to bury whatever evidence there is of the reality of his relations with Epstein. With every power available to his administration.
Here's what Labour promised, from their manifesto:
But under the Conservatives, our economy has become overly dependent on workers from abroad to fill skills shortages. As a result, we have seen net migration reach record highs; more than triple the level than at the last election in 2019.
The overall level must be properly controlled and managed. Failure to do so reduces the incentives for businesses to train locally. So, Labour will reduce net migration.
We will reform the points-based immigration system so that it is fair and properly managed, with appropriate restrictions on visas,
and by linking immigration and skills policy. Labour will not tolerate employers or recruitment agencies abusing the visa system. And we will not stand for breaches of employment law. Employers who flout the rules will be barred from hiring workers from abroad.
Mandelson taking a freebie AFTER the conviction is a different timing, and worse in my eyes.
Both are bad, no excuses for Trump, but to do so AFTER the conviction? Only Mandelson AFAIK did that.
But also on a practical level - did Mandy have a set of keys to Epstein's place?
He was utterly hopeless, shifty and evasive, and hiding behind his usual “process.”
I think this puts him in trouble. He has to sack Mandy pronto, surely?
“I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations
Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details
Please also share this message
If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”
https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
Musk just promised $1m
The man continues to manage to inveigle himself back into the top echelons of government despite his very questionable judgement. Ive never been quite sure why they have always thought this to be OK.
https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1965733644711952451
He was made ambassador when it was known he had stayed in Epsteins apartment whilst he was in prison.
Any politician who isn’t a complete moron would have not gone anywhere near Mandelson .
And his comments about Rayner in attempting to embarrass Badenoch were a disgrace , to stab her in the back like that.
Tomorrow at 10am I will be sharing a press conference with @DavidGHFrost and @SuellaBraverman
@KevinASchofield
Maybe Keir Starmer will finally catch a break and Suella will be defecting to Reform
There is no reason to suspect that course corrections, errors or other factors were the reason for the Russian UAVs violating Polish airspace. If Russia had wanted to use them against Ukraine, they would not have had to fly this route.
https://x.com/deaidua/status/1965741000955183264
At least we're no longer pretending it was accidental.
He actually did try to score a political point off the LOTO not asking the right questions about his own deputy’s wrongdoing?
https://x.com/JasonGroves1/status/1965759314787746041
Why do they only care about 1? There's 1 every 20 minutes, take action that will reduce them all.
“ “He’s a big, serious figure for big, serious work,” a Starmer aide said to me recently. “Team Trump can have confidence that this is a serious operator with the confidence and ear of the prime minister.”
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/what-the-new-british-ambassador-to-the-us-means-for-the-special-relationship/
https://x.com/timmyvoe/status/1965734291553566790?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
“Last night, numerous drones from Russia violated Polish airspace. Our air defences were activated and successfully ensured the defence of NATO territory, as they are designed to do. Several Allies were involved alongside Poland. This included Polish F16s, Dutch F35s, Italian AWACS, NATO Multi Role Tanker Transport, and German Patriots. I commend the pilots and all who contributed to this quick and skillful response.”
https://x.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1965741561813078494
The AIM 120s used to shoot some of them down cost well over $1m.
A Patriot, depending on the model, is $2m or more.
And that's ignoring the cost of having all those very expensive asserts airborne.
A Shaheed type drone costs somewhere between $10 and $50k.
The US ordered 45,000 of BAE's APKWS warheads for drone interception, which represent perhaps $40k per shot.
We have yet to order any in quantity, despite developing and manufacturing them, and despite the fact that we're the ones facing the near term threat.
Rutte is a buffoon.
Big win for new Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Department for Transport (and Selby MP)
https://x.com/transportgovuk/status/1964967200806384048
(not really of course, local government decision, down to the new Labour N Yorks mayor, no doubt
Are you suggesting that law enforcement priorities in the US are set by Epstein-adjacent creepy middle-aged men?
See your point.
It was about lessons from WWI.
Alliance were seen as part of the cause of WWI.
So as part of the Washington Naval Treaty system, close alliances between those in the Treaty had to go.
The idea was that without such alliances, it would be impossible for a country to launch a naval attack on another - not enough superiority.
So Japan (One ocean power) would be in stalemate/balance with the US (two ocean power) and also the U.K. (two ocean power) - none of them could threaten either of the other two successfully. *providing naval alliances were not a thing*.
So went the theory.
Similar in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.
The idea was to block arms races & make offensive naval warfare pretty much impossible.
Japan’s descent into Fascism was already well underway in the 1920s - the U.K. withdrawing from the treaties/cooperation
"Putin has to understand that if he attacks a PEWTY country there'll be hell to pay. Russia has a large army but it's no match for PEWTY."
And was in addition flagged as having mental health problems.
One political angle is whether sentencing is now too lenient for violent crimes. The "three strikes" policy was clearly unjust and draconian in its application, but this guy had passed through the system (I think) seven times.
(The US still jails at a rate far greater than just about any other developed country, so it's obviously not a solution in of itself.)
Another angle, obviously, is the inadequacy of funding not only for law enforcement, but also for mental health treatment for offenders like this guy. This administration has cut both.
So there's no single clear political angle, much as the shitposters on X would like.
It’s Finland all over again.
1) Mandelson had a significant relationship with Epstein both before and after he went to prison for sex offences.including post prison business consultancy. (This looks certain)
2) M must have been fully vetted before the ambassadorial appointment. (This must be true)
3) Starmer must have been advised of the relevant facts. (This must be true, especially as M has form from the past, but no doubt attempts can be made to fudge it)
4) If 1-3 above are true and established, then M's appointment is a potential resignation issue for Starmer.
What do others think?
As I said, America needs to bring back the loony bin for these kinds of people and so do we. They are a danger to society and until there's a better way to deal with them that doesn't rely on them taking medication without supervision, keeping them out of society is the answer.
The Russians are no match for our SPERM...
Is he going as well, or are we talking internal Tory ructions?
‘ For Labour to have kicked out MPs for being on a stage with Ken Loach or retweeting Maxine Peak, but allowing the close mate of history's most prolific paedophile to be ambassador to the US shows complete moral bankruptcy. A horrific decision that will haunt us for years.’
https://x.com/labbeyondcities/status/1965765073122791623?s=61
Still, stranger things and all
CETO
Europe and Canada Treaty Organisation
or
Canada and Europe Treaty Organisation.
It' s essential for us to support Canada and Canada to support us.
Or CANTO (which is also a beautiful Danteesque word in itself) - Canada and North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
David Frost @DavidGHFrost 2h
Looking forward also to joining @TiceRichard and @SuellaBraverman at @Prosperity_Inst tomorrow morning to help launch Suella's important paper on leaving the ECHR and its implications.
https://www.prosperity.com/media-publications/echr/
(I think these guys are another Legatum setup.)
Has anyone actually claimed “Lord Yum Yum stayed in Epstein’s NYC house even as Epstein was in jail for underage sex and trafficking” - did that actually happen? Because as you say, if true, that’s the archetypal smoking gun. There will be defence if that’s a fact.
Milliband, McFadden are both available at 85
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyranger_35
There isn't a single solution, but that's one; APKWS would be another already available.
Anti-drone drones (as already fielded in Ukraine) would be another.
It will be interesting to see the detailed consequences of the defence review, and what lessons they have and haven't yet learned.
This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges
Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there
She will now become a white George Floyd
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/10/hyundai-factory-ice-raid-legal-visa
At least one of the Korean workers swept up in a massive immigration raid on a Hyundai Motor factory site in Georgia last week was living and working legally in the US, according to an internal federal government document obtained by the Guardian.
Officials then “mandated” that he agree to be removed from the US despite not having violated his visa...