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Squaring the Circle – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,633
edited August 19 in General
Squaring the Circle – politicalbetting.com

The facts are stark. In 2021, there were around 11 million people aged 65+ in the UK. By 2040, that’ll hit nearly 15 million. That’s an army of silver-haired citizens, and a growing share will need residential care. The trouble? Care homes are expensive, and someone has to foot the bill. Councils already spend over £20 billion a year on adult social care.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,980
    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,426
    Thanks Robert. Finally some sense talked.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,754
    "Fix the tax and benefits system" also easier said than done. Essentially, reducing disincentives means either a much more expensive system (less of a taper of means tested benefits) or a much less generous one - and the UK system is hardly noted for its generosity, with very high levels of child poverty for instance.
    I'd also take issue with your claim the UK has lots of problems. Really it has only one problem - population ageing. All other problems either stem from that or are dwarfed by it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,426
    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,801
    There is nothing whatever "simple" about "fixing" the tax system - it's a nightmare of conflicting considerations, unintended consequences, waterbed effects and so on. And there's probably no single solution to caring for the elderly. Some package of measures may include a bit of tax reform, but will probably also mean encouraging people (mostly women because around 70% of people in long-term residential care are women) to put aside more for their old age, facilitating the sale of family homes, implementing best practice to raise productivity in care homes and importing more foreign labour.

    None of that will be particularly popular, so I doubt you'll see a big bang solution - probably, as with funding the NHS, a system that is permanently about to break down, but politicians always do just about enough to keep it collapsing completely.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,980
    edited August 19
    fpt

    Former deputy Green leader:


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli

    Prediction: Reform will win the next General election and Farage will be PM. Not because I want it but the left liberal kumbaya types continue to bury their heads in sand in complete denial of the absurdity that our asylum system has become. The more they refuse to listen to ordinary people with ordinary legitimate concerns, the more they try to stigmatise protest and generalise protestors as right wing racist xenophobes, the more they will do Reform's work for them as the only party prepared to listen...

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/1957542545543819699

    Ali is... an interesting figure. He was thrown out of the Green Party for being anti-trans. He may be right, but he's not representative of Green Party thought.
    I believe he is right. This is the best warning anyone could give of what will happen if immigration isn't brought under control.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,581
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    Former deputy Green leader:


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli

    Prediction: Reform will win the next General election and Farage will be PM. Not because I want it but the left liberal kumbaya types continue to bury their heads in sand in complete denial of the absurdity that our asylum system has become. The more they refuse to listen to ordinary people with ordinary legitimate concerns, the more they try to stigmatise protest and generalise protestors as right wing racist xenophobes, the more they will do Reform's work for them as the only party prepared to listen...

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/1957542545543819699

    Ali is... an interesting figure. He was thrown out of the Green Party for being anti-trans. He may be right, but he's not representative of Green Party thought.
    I believe he is right. This is the best warning anyone could give of what will happen if immigration isn't brought under control.
    Voting RefUK will bring immigration under control in the same way that voting for Brexit made Britain Great Again.

    It will be the same voters, with the same outcome
    And as with the Brexiteers now, the failure will all be Someone Else's Fault.

    They're intellectually unable to take responsibility.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416
    edited August 19
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet. (Aside from hypothetical polls)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,319
    For my fellow Whovians.

    Channel 4 Going Inside 10 Downing Street In Steven Moffat Drama

    Sherlock writer Steven Moffat is opening the doors to 10 Downing Street in a drama for Channel 4.

    The UK’s most famous residency will be the subject of Number 10, which comes from Moffat’s ITV Studios-owned production house, Hartswood Films.

    The show is, in effect, an Upstairs Downstairs-style drama looking to the activities of many people inside the property, which houses the British Prime Minister and their family during their terms. Politics will be put to aside as Moffat focuses on the fictional personalities that make up the home.

    Per the synopsis: “10 Downing Street. There’s a Prime Minister in the attic, a coffee bar in the basement, and a wallpapered labyrinth of romance, crisis and heartbreak in-between. Set in the only terrace house in history with mice and a nuclear deterrent, it’s the only knock-through in the world where a hangover can start a war.

    “The government will be fictional, but the problems will be real. We’ll never know which party is in power, because once the whole world hits the fan it barely matters. This is a show about the building and everyone inside. Not just the Prime Minister upstairs, but the conspiracy theorist who runs the cafe three floors below, the man who repairs the lift that never works, the madly ambitious ‘advisors’ fighting for office space in cupboards. Oh, and of course, the cat.”


    https://deadline.com/2025/08/channel-4-steven-moffat-drama-number-10-1236491676/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662
    edited August 19
    Fishing said:

    There is nothing whatever "simple" about "fixing" the tax system - it's a nightmare of conflicting considerations, unintended consequences, waterbed effects and so on. And there's probably no single solution to caring for the elderly. Some package of measures may include a bit of tax reform, but will probably also mean encouraging people (mostly women because around 70% of people in long-term residential care are women) to put aside more for their old age, facilitating the sale of family homes, implementing best practice to raise productivity in care homes and importing more foreign labour.

    None of that will be particularly popular, so I doubt you'll see a big bang solution - probably, as with funding the NHS, a system that is permanently about to break down, but politicians always do just about enough to keep it collapsing completely.

    Presume you meant "keep it from collapsing completely."

    Although, on second thoughts...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,426

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416
    edited August 19
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    I assume as they are not registered with the EC and haven't had their foundation conference yet. But it is odd,its not like they wont be happening
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,434
    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,378
    Why can't grannies exhaust their capital before asking others for cash? There is an oddity about not paying enough into the tax system during their lifetime, allowing the country's debt to grow and then expecting the current cadre of workers to pay so they can hand on an inheritance.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,238
    Thanks. The devil of course is in the detail.

    Two issues: WRT paying care workers, oddly, unlike with bankers and CEOs of FTSE 100 companies we tend not to be told 'you have to pay the rate for the job (eg £15 million pa for CEOs) to get thr right people'. I wonder why?

    Secondly, taper. How is this to be dealt with. Every government all my life has said it is dealing with it. But there is a conceptual fundamental problem, as described here:

    The rate for the care worker job is £X per year
    Before being a care worker unemployed single parent A received £Y per year in the total value of benefits. Y is less than X but still enough for the family to live on because it has to be.
    The extra A gets for working at best is £X-Y, which isn't very much in the great scheme of things.
    If they are allowed to keep a good proportion of £Y in addition, this is unfair on single parent care worker B who has always worked and never claimed benefits.

    Answers on a postcard to Ian Duncan Smith and Torsten Bell.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,319
    Looks like we need to put British boots on the ground in Ukraine.

    America is an unreliable ally even after Trump goes.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,103
    edited August 19
    "In fact, one in five care workers is foreign-born"

    Err, that makes the sector very much middle of the road in that regard:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/migrationandthelabourmarketcountryofbirthbasedestimatesenglandandwales

    Europe: United Kingdom - 21,959,795 - 79%
    Europe: EU countries - 2,345,110 - 8%
    Non-EU countries (including British Overseas) - 3,468,760 - 12%

    "Council tax bills (already averaging £2,065 a year for Band D) will jump."

    Come to Woking:

    https://www.woking.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands-charges

    Band D £2,482.03
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,690
    I think Robert's article raises lots of valid, important issues, but I'm not convinced by the conclusion as to the root cause. Fixing the tax and benefit system that produces a high effective marginal rate would be a good thing to do, but care work will still be hard yet poorly paid, councils will still be broke, and the UK will still be handling a demographic timebomb.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,747
    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,103
    But thanks for the header Robert. This is a subject close to my heart at the moment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,319
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    They are prompted on the second screen if you select other.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,437
    Crack on and fix the system. Importing hundreds and thousands of low wage care workers with an army of economically inactive dependents who will never be a positive contributor is. It sustainable.

    Remove ILR for any who came in the Boriswave
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662

    For my fellow Whovians.

    Channel 4 Going Inside 10 Downing Street In Steven Moffat Drama

    Sherlock writer Steven Moffat is opening the doors to 10 Downing Street in a drama for Channel 4.

    The UK’s most famous residency will be the subject of Number 10, which comes from Moffat’s ITV Studios-owned production house, Hartswood Films.

    The show is, in effect, an Upstairs Downstairs-style drama looking to the activities of many people inside the property, which houses the British Prime Minister and their family during their terms. Politics will be put to aside as Moffat focuses on the fictional personalities that make up the home.

    Per the synopsis: “10 Downing Street. There’s a Prime Minister in the attic, a coffee bar in the basement, and a wallpapered labyrinth of romance, crisis and heartbreak in-between. Set in the only terrace house in history with mice and a nuclear deterrent, it’s the only knock-through in the world where a hangover can start a war.

    “The government will be fictional, but the problems will be real. We’ll never know which party is in power, because once the whole world hits the fan it barely matters. This is a show about the building and everyone inside. Not just the Prime Minister upstairs, but the conspiracy theorist who runs the cafe three floors below, the man who repairs the lift that never works, the madly ambitious ‘advisors’ fighting for office space in cupboards. Oh, and of course, the cat.”


    https://deadline.com/2025/08/channel-4-steven-moffat-drama-number-10-1236491676/

    I hope he has the rights to Number 11 as well, or it will miss much of the tears and tantrums at the heart of government...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,690
    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    Former deputy Green leader:


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli

    Prediction: Reform will win the next General election and Farage will be PM. Not because I want it but the left liberal kumbaya types continue to bury their heads in sand in complete denial of the absurdity that our asylum system has become. The more they refuse to listen to ordinary people with ordinary legitimate concerns, the more they try to stigmatise protest and generalise protestors as right wing racist xenophobes, the more they will do Reform's work for them as the only party prepared to listen...

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/1957542545543819699

    Ali is... an interesting figure. He was thrown out of the Green Party for being anti-trans. He may be right, but he's not representative of Green Party thought.
    I believe he is right. This is the best warning anyone could give of what will happen if immigration isn't brought under control.
    Much of the concern about immigration seems to be only somewhat loosely connected to reality, so I'm uncertain whether bringing immigration under control will actually stop the rhetoric and false beliefs.

    Leaving that aside, what does it mean to talk about immigration being brought under control? Is it about total numbers? These are falling considerably. If immigration is cut to a quarter of the peak under Boris Johnson, is that "under control"? Or is it about the types of immigration? Is it about asylum seeker numbers (also down) or numbers coming over in small boats (up)?

    If immigration comes down, but the cost of care goes up considerably, as per the header, is that what people want?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662

    I think Robert's article raises lots of valid, important issues, but I'm not convinced by the conclusion as to the root cause. Fixing the tax and benefit system that produces a high effective marginal rate would be a good thing to do, but care work will still be hard yet poorly paid, councils will still be broke, and the UK will still be handling a demographic timebomb.

    Making it much, much easier for people to end their lives when in terminal decline is the way to go. But given the pearl-clutching around the assisted dying legislation, hard to see anybody willing to propose IHT relief or other tax breaks for those taking the early Exit...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,690
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    Because they don't have a name or a leader and aren't standing candidates anywhere?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,690

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    They are prompted on the second screen if you select other.
    Thanks. How are they prompted? As "Your Party"?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,434
    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    Why can't grannies exhaust their capital before asking others for cash? There is an oddity about not paying enough into the tax system during their lifetime, allowing the country's debt to grow and then expecting the current cadre of workers to pay so they can hand on an inheritance.

    The same question could of course be asked about the cost of granny's health care. Reasons: It is immoral to give incentives to people to spend all they have so that the tax payer picks up your bill. Secondly it encourages lifetime alienation of assets by people carefully planning to land their bills on the taxpayer and punishes those who act straightforwardly (IHT does a similar thing). It rewards the feckless.

    Personally I think the Dilnot cap got it about right.
    At 81 and my wife at 85 we both fully expect to pay our care fees

    The amount paid will come from our home and whatever remains will be shared by our children as their inheritance
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    They are prompted on the second screen if you select other.
    Presumably as an option for anyone who says 'other'?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,197

    Looks like we need to put British boots on the ground in Ukraine.

    America is an unreliable ally even after Trump goes.

    AEP: Forget Trump, Europe will save Ukraine

    But rearmament is at last happening ... The wheels were set in motion before Donald Trump returned to office. The pace is not warp speed but it is already changing the Atlantic balance of military power, and that is the larger story behind this week’s slapstick theatrics at the White House.

    While Trump still commands the daily news cycle, he no longer commands the West and no longer commands the fate of Ukraine.


    Article available here (not paywalled):
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/44477f909005f680
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,319

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    They are prompted on the second screen if you select other.
    Thanks. How are they prompted? As "Your Party"?
    Yes.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,838

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    It’s not. It’s the epitome of doomloop, just with a somewhat less fractious and more stoical population.

    Korea will follow next. Then Italy, Germany etc etc.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,791

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,378
    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    Why can't grannies exhaust their capital before asking others for cash? There is an oddity about not paying enough into the tax system during their lifetime, allowing the country's debt to grow and then expecting the current cadre of workers to pay so they can hand on an inheritance.

    The same question could of course be asked about the cost of granny's health care. Reasons: It is immoral to give incentives to people to spend all they have so that the tax payer picks up your bill. Secondly it encourages lifetime alienation of assets by people carefully planning to land their bills on the taxpayer and punishes those who act straightforwardly (IHT does a similar thing). It rewards the feckless.

    Personally I think the Dilnot cap got it about right.
    There is a capital exemption of £23,250 before the council is expected to pay. So there are a lot of people who have spent their capital by this stage. Dilnot just increase the burden on the council as even less people will have the higher capital level so more will be within the envelope for Council help.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,747
    Also, how do you reduce the marginal tax rate for people on universal credit?

    We all agree it's worthwhile, but the marginal rate ended up as high as it is because Osbourne cut the budget - prompting IDS to resign. If you only change the withdrawal rate it gets to be very expensive with only modest changes.

    You can square that circle by cutting how much people receive to start with, plunging them further into poverty, unless you can do that by massively reducing rent levels, perhaps by building x million houses and crashing house prices.

    But how do you build x million houses? Governments have had a declared policy of increasing the number of houses built for many years without doing much to meet the shortfall in demand for housing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,581
    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Those are both real issues with this decision. That does not automatically make the decision wrong, though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,521
    Robots are the answer.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    They are prompted on the second screen if you select other.
    Presumably as an option for anyone who says 'other'?
    I see you actually said that. Not like me to scan over the actual words a blab on regardless
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662
    TimS said:

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    It’s not. It’s the epitome of doomloop, just with a somewhat less fractious and more stoical population.

    Korea will follow next. Then Italy, Germany etc etc.
    I guess we can look forward to a time when the care of the REALLY elderly is being undertaken by people over 80....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,926
    edited August 19

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Those are both real issues with this decision. That does not automatically make the decision wrong, though.
    It's, in any case, primarily because there was no proper planning permission. Which may or may not have implications elsewhere (remember the last HMG just basically refused to take planning into account when converting RAF Scamption, IIRC).

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/19/high-court-judge-orders-closure-of-essex-asylum-hotel-after-far-right-protests
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,261

    And TBH 65 is a strange age threshold, albeit the usual statistical one (?) - there are ~1,7 million people 65 or over who are in employment.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,690

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    Badly?

    They are looking at increasing immigration (from current very low levels). They're keen on robots as a solution to care. Retirement age got increased (to 65). They introduced mandatory long-term care insurance in 2000, 介護保険. There's a focus on community-based solutions.

    To quote this paper, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7533196/

    The LTCI [long-term care insurance] budget in Japan consists of premiums (50%) and taxes (50%). In this system, every citizen aged 40 years or over pays premiums, whereas the taxes are derived from the national government (25%), prefecture (12.5%), and municipality (12.5%)

    It's roughly equivalent to an extra 2p on your income tax when you hit 40.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,926
    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    Why can't grannies exhaust their capital before asking others for cash? There is an oddity about not paying enough into the tax system during their lifetime, allowing the country's debt to grow and then expecting the current cadre of workers to pay so they can hand on an inheritance.

    The same question could of course be asked about the cost of granny's health care. Reasons: It is immoral to give incentives to people to spend all they have so that the tax payer picks up your bill. Secondly it encourages lifetime alienation of assets by people carefully planning to land their bills on the taxpayer and punishes those who act straightforwardly (IHT does a similar thing). It rewards the feckless.

    Personally I think the Dilnot cap got it about right.
    There is a capital exemption of £23,250 before the council is expected to pay. So there are a lot of people who have spent their capital by this stage. Dilnot just increase the burden on the council as even less people will have the higher capital level so more will be within the envelope for Council help.
    Another complication is income. If they are sans NI contribution record (as the OP seems to suggest) then they'd at best be on Pension Credit - and that is not paid if one has 16K savings, reduced in the range down to 6K, and only paid in full after 6K savings.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,662

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    Badly?

    They are looking at increasing immigration (from current very low levels). They're keen on robots as a solution to care. Retirement age got increased (to 65). They introduced mandatory long-term care insurance in 2000, 介護保険. There's a focus on community-based solutions.

    To quote this paper, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7533196/

    The LTCI [long-term care insurance] budget in Japan consists of premiums (50%) and taxes (50%). In this system, every citizen aged 40 years or over pays premiums, whereas the taxes are derived from the national government (25%), prefecture (12.5%), and municipality (12.5%)

    It's roughly equivalent to an extra 2p on your income tax when you hit 40.
    Wanna get old? Then pay for the privilege...
  • Fixing the tax and benefits system is at least a two term job. Not easy in the UK with FPTP and 5 parties below 30%.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,238
    geoffw said:

    Looks like we need to put British boots on the ground in Ukraine.

    America is an unreliable ally even after Trump goes.

    AEP: Forget Trump, Europe will save Ukraine

    But rearmament is at last happening ... The wheels were set in motion before Donald Trump returned to office. The pace is not warp speed but it is already changing the Atlantic balance of military power, and that is the larger story behind this week’s slapstick theatrics at the White House.

    While Trump still commands the daily news cycle, he no longer commands the West and no longer commands the fate of Ukraine.


    Article available here (not paywalled):
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/44477f909005f680
    That the USA should decide as a matter of policy that Europe is a matter for Europe is not in itself fantastical or completely stupid, though personally I think it is short sighted.

    What is fantastical is to switch policy from being Europe and the world's policeman and not have a proper organised handover transition period.

    What is needed immediately is for UK and France, backed by the rest of e-NATO (European NATO needs a name by the way) to make clear that its nuclear deterrent exists for a reason and that this includes the defence of western European interests, just as Russia uses hers to protect her interests. UK and France are not used to this. We are going to have to get used to it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,838

    TimS said:

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    It’s not. It’s the epitome of doomloop, just with a somewhat less fractious and more stoical population.

    Korea will follow next. Then Italy, Germany etc etc.
    I guess we can look forward to a time when the care of the REALLY elderly is being undertaken by people over 80....
    There is a sort of answer, though one I consider a bit unethical and not lending itself to long term national cohesion: that’s the Gulf states approach. Citizenship for a small and pampered home population, and then leave the running of the economy, the care of the elderly, cleaning of streets etc to a panoply of gastarbeiters with few rights or employment protections.

    It works very nicely for the small and pampered home population, and the guest workers are self selecting. It does, however, create a form of apartheid state.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,434
    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,434

    TimS said:

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    It’s not. It’s the epitome of doomloop, just with a somewhat less fractious and more stoical population.

    Korea will follow next. Then Italy, Germany etc etc.
    I guess we can look forward to a time when the care of the REALLY elderly is being undertaken by people over 80....
    Or family
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,004
    edited August 19

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    Badly?

    They are looking at increasing immigration (from current very low levels). They're keen on robots as a solution to care. Retirement age got increased (to 65). They introduced mandatory long-term care insurance in 2000, 介護保険. There's a focus on community-based solutions.

    To quote this paper, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7533196/

    The LTCI [long-term care insurance] budget in Japan consists of premiums (50%) and taxes (50%). In this system, every citizen aged 40 years or over pays premiums, whereas the taxes are derived from the national government (25%), prefecture (12.5%), and municipality (12.5%)

    It's roughly equivalent to an extra 2p on your income tax when you hit 40.
    I've never thought of it before, but age-related income tax rates could be an interesting idea. Based on the fact that for many/most people major costs (mortgage, childcare) decrease from around age 50, we could bump up income tax rates by, say, 1pp every 5 years from age 50. Maybe exclude renters.

    I guess the downside is that any party proposing such an idea would also be signing its own death warrant.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,455

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,204

    TimS said:

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    It’s not. It’s the epitome of doomloop, just with a somewhat less fractious and more stoical population.

    Korea will follow next. Then Italy, Germany etc etc.
    I guess we can look forward to a time when the care of the REALLY elderly is being undertaken by people over 80....
    Or family
    My father in law (94) is helping to look after my mother in law (89).

    When we have a vaccine for Alzheimer's (Shingles + ???) then perhaps things will get better.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,970

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
    If the Government wishes to convert a hotel into migrant housing - they can issue a statutory order in the House of Parliament or use primary legislation to do so..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,876

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
    Privacy International, a charity which successfully challenged electronic tagging of asylum seekers, has submitted a 94-page complaint to the Information Commissioner alleging that the Home Office is breaking data laws on the way it deports and monitors migrants.

    Its claim, if successful, could delay and even block deportations of migrants and foreign national criminals, a key plank in Sir Keir Starmer’s policy to deter Channel crossings and reverse the record numbers reaching the UK.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/19/home-office-block-deporting-migrants-data-laws/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,838

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    Badly?

    They are looking at increasing immigration (from current very low levels). They're keen on robots as a solution to care. Retirement age got increased (to 65). They introduced mandatory long-term care insurance in 2000, 介護保険. There's a focus on community-based solutions.

    To quote this paper, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7533196/

    The LTCI [long-term care insurance] budget in Japan consists of premiums (50%) and taxes (50%). In this system, every citizen aged 40 years or over pays premiums, whereas the taxes are derived from the national government (25%), prefecture (12.5%), and municipality (12.5%)

    It's roughly equivalent to an extra 2p on your income tax when you hit 40.
    I've never thought of it before, but age-related income tax rates could be an interesting idea. Based on the fact that for many/most people major costs (mortgage, childcare) decrease from around age 50, we could bump up income tax rates by, say, 1pp every 5 years from age 50. Maybe exclude renters.

    I guess the downside is that any party proposing such an idea would also be signing its own death warrant.
    The main downside would be people retiring from the workforce early because of the tax rate ratchet.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,621

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    I assume as they are not registered with the EC and haven't had their foundation conference yet. But it is odd,its not like they wont be happening
    They cant register until the name is decided.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,876
    edited August 19
    Mark Rowley wrote in a letter that the instant face-matching technology would be used at Europe’s biggest street carnival “in a non-discriminatory way” using an algorithm that “does not perform in a way which exhibits bias”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2025/aug/19/met-chief-rejects-calls-scrap-live-facial-recognition-notting-hill-carnival

    Surely everybody will know its there, so if you are wanted for something serious, you just arrive wearing a suitably themed mask.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,621
    edited August 19

    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    Former deputy Green leader:


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli

    Prediction: Reform will win the next General election and Farage will be PM. Not because I want it but the left liberal kumbaya types continue to bury their heads in sand in complete denial of the absurdity that our asylum system has become. The more they refuse to listen to ordinary people with ordinary legitimate concerns, the more they try to stigmatise protest and generalise protestors as right wing racist xenophobes, the more they will do Reform's work for them as the only party prepared to listen...

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/1957542545543819699

    Ali is... an interesting figure. He was thrown out of the Green Party for being anti-trans. He may be right, but he's not representative of Green Party thought.
    I believe he is right. This is the best warning anyone could give of what will happen if immigration isn't brought under control.
    Much of the concern about immigration seems to be only somewhat loosely connected to reality, so I'm uncertain whether bringing immigration under control will actually stop the rhetoric and false beliefs.

    Leaving that aside, what does it mean to talk about immigration being brought under control? Is it about total numbers? These are falling considerably. If immigration is cut to a quarter of the peak under Boris Johnson, is that "under control"? Or is it about the types of immigration? Is it about asylum seeker numbers (also down) or numbers coming over in small boats (up)?

    If immigration comes down, but the cost of care goes up considerably, as per the header, is that what people want?
    Despite previous immigration, births continue to struggle to rise above deaths in the UK, and with lots more older folk coming down the line, per the lead, the workers to support them (us) all have to come from somewhere. As we’ve seen with Brexit, cut off one supply of young workers and the country simply needs to find another.

    The burden of care might be cut if the early signs that the shingles vaccine significantly reduces incidence of dementia are confirmed, and meanwhile all us older folk need to be working on our leg strength, which in the longer term is key to keeping us out of residential care.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416
    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    I assume as they are not registered with the EC and haven't had their foundation conference yet. But it is odd,its not like they wont be happening
    They cant register until the name is decided.
    No, i know.
    I guess they'd prefer not to be primary prompted in polling for now so YP doesn't 'stick' eith the public if it ends up changing

    Constantly changing your name is for TIGs and Social and Liberal Democrats
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,747
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    Former deputy Green leader:


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli

    Prediction: Reform will win the next General election and Farage will be PM. Not because I want it but the left liberal kumbaya types continue to bury their heads in sand in complete denial of the absurdity that our asylum system has become. The more they refuse to listen to ordinary people with ordinary legitimate concerns, the more they try to stigmatise protest and generalise protestors as right wing racist xenophobes, the more they will do Reform's work for them as the only party prepared to listen...

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/1957542545543819699

    Ali is... an interesting figure. He was thrown out of the Green Party for being anti-trans. He may be right, but he's not representative of Green Party thought.
    I believe he is right. This is the best warning anyone could give of what will happen if immigration isn't brought under control.
    Much of the concern about immigration seems to be only somewhat loosely connected to reality, so I'm uncertain whether bringing immigration under control will actually stop the rhetoric and false beliefs.

    Leaving that aside, what does it mean to talk about immigration being brought under control? Is it about total numbers? These are falling considerably. If immigration is cut to a quarter of the peak under Boris Johnson, is that "under control"? Or is it about the types of immigration? Is it about asylum seeker numbers (also down) or numbers coming over in small boats (up)?

    If immigration comes down, but the cost of care goes up considerably, as per the header, is that what people want?
    Despite previous immigration, births continue to struggle to rise above deaths in the UK, and with lots more older folk coming down the line, per the lead, the workers to support them (us) all have to come from somewhere. As we’ve seen with Brexit, cut off one supply of young workers and the country simply needs to find another.

    The burden of care might be cut if the early signs that the shingles vaccine significantly reduces incidence of dementia are confirmed, and meanwhile all us older folk need to be working on our leg strength, which in the longer term is key to keeping us out of residential care.
    There's going to be a global shortage of young people before too long. What will we do then?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,328
    algarkirk said:

    geoffw said:

    Looks like we need to put British boots on the ground in Ukraine.

    America is an unreliable ally even after Trump goes.

    AEP: Forget Trump, Europe will save Ukraine

    But rearmament is at last happening ... The wheels were set in motion before Donald Trump returned to office. The pace is not warp speed but it is already changing the Atlantic balance of military power, and that is the larger story behind this week’s slapstick theatrics at the White House.

    While Trump still commands the daily news cycle, he no longer commands the West and no longer commands the fate of Ukraine.


    Article available here (not paywalled):
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/44477f909005f680
    That the USA should decide as a matter of policy that Europe is a matter for Europe is not in itself fantastical or completely stupid, though personally I think it is short sighted.

    What is fantastical is to switch policy from being Europe and the world's policeman and not have a proper organised handover transition period.

    What is needed immediately is for UK and France, backed by the rest of e-NATO (European NATO needs a name by the way) to make clear that its nuclear deterrent exists for a reason and that this includes the defence of western European interests, just as Russia uses hers to protect her interests. UK and France are not used to this. We are going to have to get used to it.
    It goes beyond Europe, since Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Australia et al are also going to have to ask themselves whether they can for very much longer really rely on the US.

    What that means in terms of foreign policy isn't as clearcut (Korea, for example, has a very long history of dealing with China), but all of the above have for some time being making moves towards alternatives for arms procurement.
    Euro/Pacific cooperation between the democracies is already a thing (Japan's collaboration with Italy and the UK in GCAP; S Korea's various arms deals with Europe etc) ought to be something we actively attempt to increase and formalise.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,261

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    To me it smells as if they had their eye off the ball - Runcorn byelection style.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,621
    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416

    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (17-18 August 2025)

    Ref: 28% (no change from 10-11 August)
    Lab: 21% (=)
    Con: 18% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 15% (-1)
    Green: 10% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1957801739828023357

    Aren't they prompting for the Corbyn Sultanas?
    Nobody is yet
    Thanks.
    May I enquire as to why not?
    I assume as they are not registered with the EC and haven't had their foundation conference yet. But it is odd,its not like they wont be happening
    They cant register until the name is decided.


    Constantly changing your name is for TIGs and Social and Liberal Democrats
    And dyedinsomewoolsomewhere and dyedwoolie
    #self burn 🔥
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,082

    The number of people aged 85+ in England & Wales trebled between 1981 and 2021. I don't think you can pay for that sort of change by modifying the tax system, albeit you can absolutely make the situation better or worse. There still exists a large increase in an elderly cohort that need looking after.

    Japan has staggering numbers of elderly - over 2 million 90+ by 2017. It will have 440,000 centenarians by 2050.

    How is their economy gearing up to cope?
    Badly?

    They are looking at increasing immigration (from current very low levels). They're keen on robots as a solution to care. Retirement age got increased (to 65). They introduced mandatory long-term care insurance in 2000, 介護保険. There's a focus on community-based solutions.

    To quote this paper, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7533196/

    The LTCI [long-term care insurance] budget in Japan consists of premiums (50%) and taxes (50%). In this system, every citizen aged 40 years or over pays premiums, whereas the taxes are derived from the national government (25%), prefecture (12.5%), and municipality (12.5%)

    It's roughly equivalent to an extra 2p on your income tax when you hit 40.
    I've never thought of it before, but age-related income tax rates could be an interesting idea. Based on the fact that for many/most people major costs (mortgage, childcare) decrease from around age 50, we could bump up income tax rates by, say, 1pp every 5 years from age 50. Maybe exclude renters.

    I guess the downside is that any party proposing such an idea would also be signing its own death warrant.
    Indeed: especially as (thanks to birth rates persistently below replacement) the balance between oldies and youngsters continues to worsen.

    In the 1990s, the median age of a voter in the UK was 45, so retirement was comfortably in the future for most voters. Now it's 55. So half of voters have either retired or expect to retire in the next 10 years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,455
    eek said:

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
    If the Government wishes to convert a hotel into migrant housing - they can issue a statutory order in the House of Parliament or use primary legislation to do so..
    The theory up to this point is they don’t have to - it’s not a change of use. Just a block booking with the hotel owner.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416
    edited August 19
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I saw somewhere today that he also refused all attempts at contact after not showing up to anything since being elected.
    #dedicationtoyourward
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,416

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    Nigel will be furious a Tory council gets the first legal win on hotels
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,521
    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Detain them at popup camps with high fences until they can be deported.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,533
    I know we've been over this multiple times before, but in my experience the effective marginal tax rate is the least of your worries when it comes to UC claimants.

    For those of us to be lucky enough to be on good wages, making a choice between cash and leisure is open to us. On UC, you're likely desperate for every £, even if that is taxed at 70% plus. Sometimes there is an issue with other benefits that are dependent on UC status, particularly in Scotland, and that's why I advocate moving more benefits onto the UC system which is a vast improvement to what came before in terms of incentives.

    But if people are turning down work, it's not usually for a lack of a want for cash. What few people want to face is that long-term claimants are often just completely unemployable for multiple complex reasons, and that's going to take a lot more than slightly adjusted tax rates to fix. The rest is to do with various levels of disability, and that's another massive problem to fix.

    In any case, the number of people for whom marginal tax rates are a problem is relatively small compared with the vast numbers of people who aren't in work because they are studying, early retired, or caring for relatives etc etc
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,575
    ...

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    Nigel and Kemi taking their big, big win.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,459

    For my fellow Whovians.

    Channel 4 Going Inside 10 Downing Street In Steven Moffat Drama

    Sherlock writer Steven Moffat is opening the doors to 10 Downing Street in a drama for Channel 4.

    The UK’s most famous residency will be the subject of Number 10, which comes from Moffat’s ITV Studios-owned production house, Hartswood Films.

    The show is, in effect, an Upstairs Downstairs-style drama looking to the activities of many people inside the property, which houses the British Prime Minister and their family during their terms. Politics will be put to aside as Moffat focuses on the fictional personalities that make up the home.

    Per the synopsis: “10 Downing Street. There’s a Prime Minister in the attic, a coffee bar in the basement, and a wallpapered labyrinth of romance, crisis and heartbreak in-between. Set in the only terrace house in history with mice and a nuclear deterrent, it’s the only knock-through in the world where a hangover can start a war.

    “The government will be fictional, but the problems will be real. We’ll never know which party is in power, because once the whole world hits the fan it barely matters. This is a show about the building and everyone inside. Not just the Prime Minister upstairs, but the conspiracy theorist who runs the cafe three floors below, the man who repairs the lift that never works, the madly ambitious ‘advisors’ fighting for office space in cupboards. Oh, and of course, the cat.”


    https://deadline.com/2025/08/channel-4-steven-moffat-drama-number-10-1236491676/

    Number Ten is famous for being bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside, I suppose.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,271
    MattW said:


    And TBH 65 is a strange age threshold, albeit the usual statistical one (?) - there are ~1,7 million people 65 or over who are in employment.

    I read somewhere that 65 was chosen as the qualifying age for universal state pension as that was the average age of death at the time for working men

    So you had a 50/50 chance of getting a pension.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,082
    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    Here's the thing, though.

    This causes moral hazard, because why save if the state will step in if you have no assets?

    So either people will just spend their money to avoid having it taken away to pay for care bills or, they will find a way to give their assets to their children.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,261
    edited August 19
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I need some help here, even as a connoisseur of Independents of several stripes who have .. er .. reformed, and back again.

    Isle of Thanet? Isle of Anglesey? Isle of Grain? Isle of Wight? Isle of Portsea?

    Was there not an Isle of Something Independents Party somewhere in the "Thames Estuary" general direction that had some shenanigans a few years ago - Ashfield or Boston Bypass style?
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,824
    edited August 19
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I need some help here, even as a connoisseur of Independents.

    Isle of Thanet? Isle of Anglesey? Isle of Grain? Isle of Wight? Isle of Portsea?

    Was there not an Isle of Something Independents Party somewhere in the "Thames Estuary" general direction that had some shenanigans a few years ago - Ashfield or Boston Bypass style?
    Isle of Wight - https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/25400616.reform-councillor-david-maclean-resigns-isle-wight-council/

    In answer to your second question - suspect you're thinking of the Canvey Island Independents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvey_Island_Independent_Party
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,125

    eek said:

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
    If the Government wishes to convert a hotel into migrant housing - they can issue a statutory order in the House of Parliament or use primary legislation to do so..
    The theory up to this point is they don’t have to - it’s not a change of use. Just a block booking with the hotel owner.
    I've always thought that was ridiculous because the definition of an hotel under the Hotel Proprietors Act is "an establishment held out by the proprietor as offering food, drink and, if so required, sleeping accommodation, without special contract, to any traveller presenting himself who appears able and willing to pay a reasonable sum for the services and facilities provided and who is in a fit state to be received". Obviously that's not the case if the hotel and it's facilities are explicitly closed to the public for a defined period whilst conducting other businesses.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,638
    FF43 said:

    MattW said:


    And TBH 65 is a strange age threshold, albeit the usual statistical one (?) - there are ~1,7 million people 65 or over who are in employment.

    I read somewhere that 65 was chosen as the qualifying age for universal state pension as that was the average age of death at the time for working men

    So you had a 50/50 chance of getting a pension.
    It's a bit obsolete as defining old age.

    I think few require institutional care before age 75, but the problem remains with the population of over 75s doubling from 2020 to 2040 to 6 million.

    I fully intend to be one of them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,382
    Thanks @rcs1000 - an important subject and one can rant on at length!

    I will just say at this stage that things might be worse, financially, than you say in only a few short years as Labour plan to make the care sector their test for reintroduction of sector-based national wage bargaining.

    Details are short but the end result is bound to be an increase in the hourly wage and possibly a significant one.

    They seem to be piling ahead with this without any indication how on earth the wages are going to be paid for as councils are already either bankrupt or very close. Will central government make up the wage difference? Will social care NI be back?

    Who knows.

    There is only silence.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,621
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I need some help here, even as a connoisseur of Independents of several stripes who have .. er .. reformed, and back again.

    Isle of Thanet? Isle of Anglesey? Isle of Grain? Isle of Wight? Isle of Portsea?

    Was there not an Isle of Something Independents Party somewhere in the "Thames Estuary" general direction that had some shenanigans a few years ago - Ashfield or Boston Bypass style?
    You reveal an unfamiliarity with the writings of Jane Austen
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,261
    Lennon said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I need some help here, even as a connoisseur of Independents.

    Isle of Thanet? Isle of Anglesey? Isle of Grain? Isle of Wight? Isle of Portsea?

    Was there not an Isle of Something Independents Party somewhere in the "Thames Estuary" general direction that had some shenanigans a few years ago - Ashfield or Boston Bypass style?
    Isle of Wight - https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/25400616.reform-councillor-david-maclean-resigns-isle-wight-council/

    In answer to your second question - suspect you're thinking of the Canvey Island Independents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvey_Island_Independent_Party
    Thank-you. The IOW Council Offices do look deliciously 1950s - no wonder Richard Tice likes it there.

    (Runs and hides.)
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,361
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    Here's the thing, though.

    This causes moral hazard, because why save if the state will step in if you have no assets?

    So either people will just spend their money to avoid having it taken away to pay for care bills or, they will find a way to give their assets to their children.
    I have never understood the logic behind elderly people scrimping in retirement in order to leave a legacy to their children who in most cases don’t need it and don’t want it. If you have the funds to help your children or grandchildren to e.g. get on the property ladder, why not gift it to them now, rather than wait until you are dead, and risk it being spent on a care home.
    Enjoy your retirement, and spend it on yourself or maybe spend it on things that will help you remain in your own home instead of going into care?
    Sorry kids!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,382
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    Here's the thing, though.

    This causes moral hazard, because why save if the state will step in if you have no assets?

    So either people will just spend their money to avoid having it taken away to pay for care bills or, they will find a way to give their assets to their children.
    Dilnot is dead. His report and the policy I mean, not the man.

    Absolutely no chance of it being resurrected now. Wes Streeting, under direct orders from Reeves, killed it stone dead straight after an election in during which he had said he will implement a form of it.

    Nothing will change under this one term Labour government except national wage bargaining sometime near the end of the term - with larger costs and no idea how to pay.

    The political class has failed again.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,494
    Lennon said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: one of the island’s newly elected Reform councillors, who won one of the three by-elections back in May, has today resigned his seat, having missed most of the meetings he was due to attend since his election. So there’s likely to be another by-election shortly. There are widespread rumours that he doesn’t live on the island, as his primary residence, and hence struggled to meet his obligations as an elected councillor.

    I need some help here, even as a connoisseur of Independents.

    Isle of Thanet? Isle of Anglesey? Isle of Grain? Isle of Wight? Isle of Portsea?

    Was there not an Isle of Something Independents Party somewhere in the "Thames Estuary" general direction that had some shenanigans a few years ago - Ashfield or Boston Bypass style?
    Isle of Wight - https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/25400616.reform-councillor-david-maclean-resigns-isle-wight-council/

    In answer to your second question - suspect you're thinking of the Canvey Island Independents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvey_Island_Independent_Party
    They’re still about; their leader is Leader of Castle Point Council. Although they lost a by-election to Reform recently.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,876
    Sky News has cancelled its daily Business Live news programme, leaving the channel without a stand-alone business programme for the first time since 2007, City AM can reveal.

    The broadcaster’s top brass informed staff about the decision in a memo on Monday evening, telling editorial employees that the show “will not return to the TV and streaming schedule this autumn”.

    https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-business-live-dropped-from-sky-news-in-premium-push/

    When they don't legally have to run it, Sky News is going to get shut down isn't it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,742

    For my fellow Whovians.

    Channel 4 Going Inside 10 Downing Street In Steven Moffat Drama

    Sherlock writer Steven Moffat is opening the doors to 10 Downing Street in a drama for Channel 4.

    The UK’s most famous residency will be the subject of Number 10, which comes from Moffat’s ITV Studios-owned production house, Hartswood Films.

    The show is, in effect, an Upstairs Downstairs-style drama looking to the activities of many people inside the property, which houses the British Prime Minister and their family during their terms. Politics will be put to aside as Moffat focuses on the fictional personalities that make up the home.

    Per the synopsis: “10 Downing Street. There’s a Prime Minister in the attic, a coffee bar in the basement, and a wallpapered labyrinth of romance, crisis and heartbreak in-between. Set in the only terrace house in history with mice and a nuclear deterrent, it’s the only knock-through in the world where a hangover can start a war.

    “The government will be fictional, but the problems will be real. We’ll never know which party is in power, because once the whole world hits the fan it barely matters. This is a show about the building and everyone inside. Not just the Prime Minister upstairs, but the conspiracy theorist who runs the cafe three floors below, the man who repairs the lift that never works, the madly ambitious ‘advisors’ fighting for office space in cupboards. Oh, and of course, the cat.”


    https://deadline.com/2025/08/channel-4-steven-moffat-drama-number-10-1236491676/

    Number Ten is famous for being bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside, I suppose.
    Recent occupants of Number Ten being notorious for turning out to be smaller on the inside than they look on the outside, positively dwarfish in some cases.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,361

    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    A couple of ways the British collective psyche really doesn't help here.

    One is our obsession with inheritance- at some point, it flips from human and healthy into something more pathological; a last breath of power from beyond the grave. The other is our general dislike of the idea of paying enough tax to cover the cost of the things we want the state to deliver.

    The other difficulty (as I understand it, others may know better) is that the costs of elderly care are very very lumpy. For some, it's not very much at all, whereas for others it would wipe out people wealthier than me. Spreading that risk seems fair enough- whether we do that by individual insurance or just by rolling it into what the state does, paid for by tax.
    My experience when I was working as an IFA was that long term care insurance was expensive and a very limited market.
    What about a compulsory 1p on Income Tax for over 50s, to fund it. It could be called National Care Insurance.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,444
    edited August 19
    I know the fashionable view is that Trump has achieved nothing over the past week, but haven’t we essentially now confirmed that Ukraine needs security guarantees - now tentatively understood as comprising European boots on the ground and American air and logistical support; while Putin demands land - the most limited form of which might be de facto rather than de jure control of the Donbas.

    If I understand correctly, Putin has conceded that some form (not NATO) of security for Ukraine might be conceded. And while Zelensky has noted that land cessation is constitutionally prohibited, a de facto cessation might not be.

    Putin has even agreed to a bilateral with Zelensky, which I don’t think we’ve seen before.

    Perhaps there is indeed ground - albeit incredibly narrow - for an agreement.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,204
    edited August 19
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    This is one option that puts the cost of care substantially onto those that lose the end of life lottery, who have illnesses that require lots of expensive care.

    There is another option where the cost of end of life care is funded by everyone through compulsory insurance or taxes, whether they ultimately need it or not.

    Either of these is better than an unmanaged ad-hoc as we have now.
    Compulsory insurance is another moral hazard. Why look after your old Dad if the state will do it for free, and he's already paid for it?

    Without the army of family carers out there the government would have an even bigger problem.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,437

    Sky News has cancelled its daily Business Live news programme, leaving the channel without a stand-alone business programme for the first time since 2007, City AM can reveal.

    The broadcaster’s top brass informed staff about the decision in a memo on Monday evening, telling editorial employees that the show “will not return to the TV and streaming schedule this autumn”.

    https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-business-live-dropped-from-sky-news-in-premium-push/

    When they don't legally have to run it, Sky News is going to get shut down isn't it.

    Yup. Hardly anyone watches it. How does it fund itself if Comcast aren’t prepared to pony up ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,271
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    The key to social care was set out in the Dilnot report on Social care as long ago as 2011. We need the elderly to pay a lot more of their care. The idea that the inheritance for the family is more important than the cost to the taxpayer is simply not sustainable nor even remotely equitable. Taxpayers with no aspirations of money for themselves are paying higher taxes on their income to subsidise wealth for the privileged. It is outrageous. Theresa May wasn't right about much but she was right about this and the British people were delusional in rejecting her solutions.

    If we are more aggressive about prioritising the debts of the elderly over the inheritance they leave we can save ourselves at least £10bn a year now and more going forward. It would not solve our deficit, that is on a truly different and frightening scale, but it would be a significant step in the right direction for once. Carpe diem.

    Here's the thing, though.

    This causes moral hazard, because why save if the state will step in if you have no assets?

    So either people will just spend their money to avoid having it taken away to pay for care bills or, they will find a way to give their assets to their children.
    Which is one reason why you might be better dealing with it as a (compulsory) insurance problem.

    The talk about tax on on death wasn't helpful but some of those opposed to May's solution were doing so on reasoned grounds.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,444
    Ed Davey says that calling Palestine Action terrorists is wrong. Good.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,284
    Stereodog said:

    eek said:

    nico67 said:

    Breaking

    High Court awards temporary injunction to Epping Council to block migrant housing in hotel

    The problem is where do you put them and won’t this act as a green light for protests at other hotels .
    Yes - apparently the Home Office attempted to intervene but the judge rejected their intervention

    Seems this is likely to cause mayhem but it is a temporary injunction
    The Process State types are very unhappy at the idea that using a hotel gets round all planning.

    If the government can go round doing things without a five year court battle, imagine the lawyers who will rapidly be reduced to penury.
    If the Government wishes to convert a hotel into migrant housing - they can issue a statutory order in the House of Parliament or use primary legislation to do so..
    The theory up to this point is they don’t have to - it’s not a change of use. Just a block booking with the hotel owner.
    I've always thought that was ridiculous because the definition of an hotel under the Hotel Proprietors Act is "an establishment held out by the proprietor as offering food, drink and, if so required, sleeping accommodation, without special contract, to any traveller presenting himself who appears able and willing to pay a reasonable sum for the services and facilities provided and who is in a fit state to be received". Obviously that's not the case if the hotel and it's facilities are explicitly closed to the public for a defined period whilst conducting other businesses.
    The key to squaring the circle of small boat arrivals, which is unpopular enough as a concept (as it goes against the British desire for fairness and orderliness), but becomes wildly unpopular amongst those communities where a hotel is used for migrants, is also reform of the tax and benefit system.....
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,437

    Ed Davey says that calling Palestine Action terrorists is wrong. Good.

    Violent attacks on businesses and Police officers one of whom ended up in hospitals.

    Sabotaging planes and other assets intended for use in Ukraine and other places

    They’re a terrorist group. Fuck them.

    This moron supports them as it’s a cosy, middle class, obsession.
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