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Who will get the blame for this? Labour or Trump or both? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,435
edited 6:13AM in General
Who will get the blame for this? Labour or Trump or both? – politicalbetting.com

Bombshell new poll from @ipsosintheuk.bsky.social shows economic optimism at its lowest level we have EVER seen.Remember – Ipsos have been recording this since 1978!So economic optimism now lower than during winter of discontent, financial crash or Covid. www.thetimes.com/article/8b29…

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,694
    First like Liverpool and Arne Slot.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 683
    It's not going to get any better based on Trump's thrashing around with Ukraine and tariffs.

    Russia's mantra is that if any part of Russia is attacked, they'll go nuclear. QED just call the parts of Ukraine it wants as Russian and get Trump to agree (with a nuclear gun to his head).
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,113
    The public should really blame Trump but I expect Labour will get most of the blame . Reform are busy blaming immigration and think everything would just be amazing if the UK pulled up the draw bridge .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,137
    nico67 said:

    The public should really blame Trump but I expect Labour will get most of the blame . Reform are busy blaming immigration and think everything would just be amazing if the UK pulled up the draw bridge .

    Very likely. After all, Russia started the Ukraine war and yet the economic consequences have been blamed on incumbent governments in democracies across the world (and in the US).
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,643
    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,137
    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,113
    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    Labour supporters are also fed up with the parties Reform tribute act . The Lib Dem’s and Greens are doing well helped by their clear anti Trump stance . Labour seem to be acting as if the next GE is at the end of the year .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,292
    Note that this is a measure of mood rather than anything concrete.

    GDP growth surprised on the upside at 0.5% in February, and Retail sales were up in March by more than forecast too.

    That was before Trumps Tariffs Tantrum of course, but also the fine weather has kept up and I reckon retailers and construction had a good April too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,402
    Battlebus said:

    It's not going to get any better based on Trump's thrashing around with Ukraine and tariffs.

    Russia's mantra is that if any part of Russia is attacked, they'll go nuclear. QED just call the parts of Ukraine it wants as Russian and get Trump to agree (with a nuclear gun to his head).

    Which is ridiculous for several reasons:

    *) It is so obviously blackmail, that it means any nuclear-capable power can just invade and annex territory and use the same argument.
    *) They've said it throughout the war, and did not use nukes even when Kursk was invaded.
    *) Nukes would give Russia zero tactical or strategic advantage, and many disadvantages.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,231
    Happy St George's Day (take 2).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,745
    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819

    I think things or people I don't like should get the blame whilst things or people I do like, don't.

    So both, then ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,113
    edited 6:54AM
    In terms of the Canadian elections.

    In terms of turnout , if that’s high it could spell problems for the LPC . Abacus Data showed the CPC with a 2 point lead if those less likely to vote do turnout .

    Not enough to win though because of the issues around voter efficiency . The uncertainty with the election is more in relation to whether the LPC can get a majority . It would take a big polling miss for them to not be the largest party .

    Although Atlantic Canada is normally very good for the Libs there are still some more competitive bellwether ridings that might give an early indication as to the direction of travel .
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,339
    edited 6:59AM
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,963

    I think things or people I don't like should get the blame whilst things or people I do like, don't.

    This may be why, as rkrkrk alluded to above, the numbers are so low this time. All parts of tts political spectrum can say it’s crap, and blame either Labour or Trump (or both) according to taste.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638
    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    The ones who might have cared have already deserted the party ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,866
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I think there are three delusions on hand:
    1) Reform voters are Tory voters, so whatever the polls say they will come back
    2) Reform MPs are like children who will be able to be managed by the grown-up Tory MPs. HY often talks about how Kemi would be in real power because she would get to choose to put Farage into Downing Street
    3) PB Tory obsessions with woke is what all right-thinking people are obsessed with, so Well Done Kemi for sticking it to Starmer about penises. Its all that voters are talking about.

    Political revolutions rarely happen overnight, and the Tory party is still alive and well in pockets across the UK. But politically? Nationally? It's been replaced by Reform - and pb.com Tories are in denial.

    Usually at this stage of the political cycle the vanquished party would have refreshed itself and be plugging away with a new message to undermine the failings of the new government. Not this time. Kemi is fighting Wokewars - which real people aren't interested in. Farage is fighting Labour on public services and cost of living and the general feeling that Britain is crap.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,346
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    edited 7:04AM
    One for PB's historians.

    Since hiring Kristina Wong from Breitbart News as the Secretary of the Navy Communications Director this week, the
    @SECNAV account has twice posted the incorrect date of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, “a date which will live in infamy.”

    https://x.com/travisakers/status/1916560559849226687

    The posts also show the SECNAV standing in front of the memorial, which prominently displays the date...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,402
    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,638
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,963
    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
    The employers NI threshold fall had an effect on business and hiring decisions. The employment rights bill has been watered down significantly and most employers seem to be shrugging it off. Job security should in principle be a driver for consumer confidence, though I think that effect will be marginal too.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,745
    Nigelb said:

    One for PB's historians.

    Since hiring Kristina Wong from Breitbart News as the Secretary of the Navy Communications Director this week, the
    @SECNAV account has twice posted the incorrect date of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, “a date which will live in infamy.”

    https://x.com/travisakers/status/1916560559849226687

    The posts also show the SECNAV standing in front of the memorial, which prominently displays the date...

    And the Republicans say they believe in meritocratic hiring…
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,346

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I think there are three delusions on hand:
    1) Reform voters are Tory voters, so whatever the polls say they will come back
    2) Reform MPs are like children who will be able to be managed by the grown-up Tory MPs. HY often talks about how Kemi would be in real power because she would get to choose to put Farage into Downing Street
    3) PB Tory obsessions with woke is what all right-thinking people are obsessed with, so Well Done Kemi for sticking it to Starmer about penises. Its all that voters are talking about.

    Political revolutions rarely happen overnight, and the Tory party is still alive and well in pockets across the UK. But politically? Nationally? It's been replaced by Reform - and pb.com Tories are in denial.

    Usually at this stage of the political cycle the vanquished party would have refreshed itself and be plugging away with a new message to undermine the failings of the new government. Not this time. Kemi is fighting Wokewars - which real people aren't interested in. Farage is fighting Labour on public services and cost of living and the general feeling that Britain is crap.
    I am always amazed at how circumspect the rest of us are blaming the Tories (as far back as Osborne) Reeves's budget, the Treasury, Brexit and Trumponomics whilst the PB Tory faithful exclusively blame Brown and Reeves, claiming Labour have squandered their golden legacy.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,963

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,379

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
    The key distinction is between Conservative government and Conservative Id. Reform are eating substantial portions of Conservative lunch. It might be about to change, but the big Reform gains so far have been at the expense of the blues, not the reds. So the Conservative party as a party is hurt horribly by Reform.

    But psychologically, that's fine. Reform do promise things the Conservatives know they can't, and with a swagger that comes from never having been in government and so thinking it will all be easy. It was Johnson's appeal as well- ignore the doomsters and it will be brilliant.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,346
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    Reeves's budget was three months too late and the NI rises most likely an error alongside retaining the canning of major infrastructure projects like HS2, but Hunt's NI giveaway was dereliction of duty and should have been reversed on July 5th. However compared to how Trump has subsequently crashed the World all those calamities are but mere trifles.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,788
    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
    It will help the workers who have more rights as a result.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,788

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    But the latest pay data showed an increase of 5.9% in average pay, well above inflation.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,842
    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,346
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    Your prescription is always predicated on your own fiscal dogma. Maybe you are wrong.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,379
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    But remember, you must never tell the voters they are wrong, or that they have been misled, because that just annoys them.

    (It's an unfortunate consequence of the human psyche, and the basic hack underpinning most contricks. Is there best practice for dealing with this sort of thing? In education, it boils down to gradual gentle repetition of points that undermine misconceptions, but that's quite slow and not very effective.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,137
    edited 7:31AM
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I think they genuinely believe this is simply a "split of the right" which will revolve by either the party or its voters some day 'coming home'.

    That the two-party system is falling apart and many people have simply had enough with mainstream politics doesn't seem to occur to them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    As for childish insults "call centre manager", etc, there are those far more deserving.

    The department store manager (who probably doesn't possess the skills required by that role)...
    The craziest bit in the Time interview is Trump saying the US is like a "department store," where he personally sets "what I consider to be a fair price" that countries have to pay to do business with us.
    https://x.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1916470732671877363
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,693

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
    The Conservatives are still where the voters left them - a bunch of headless chickens having a punch up with themselves in the cesspit of history.

    At yet, there's not really much more to be said.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,274
    Foxy said:

    Note that this is a measure of mood rather than anything concrete.

    GDP growth surprised on the upside at 0.5% in February, and Retail sales were up in March by more than forecast too.

    That was before Trumps Tariffs Tantrum of course, but also the fine weather has kept up and I reckon retailers and construction had a good April too.

    Domestic construction is looking at recession.

    People are not signing up on new projects. And that’s how recessions happen - the spending stops.

    First business confidence goes. Then the actual projects stop. Then the hiring stops. Then actual firings occur. Consumer spending slows late in the cascade.

    As to why - it’s a combination of non/anti growth policies by the government, combined with Trump. Total uncertainty on top of an already dull outlook.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,138
    It was Reeves and Labour who increased taxes on employers, farmers and small businesses and who have cut pensioners winter fuel allowance and hit industry with net zero taxes.

    Trump hit most nations initially with higher tariffs than the UK and even now UK tariffs are no higher than most nations face and far lower than China has
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,346
    HYUFD said:

    It was Reeves and Labour who increased taxes on employers, farmers and small businesses and who have cut pensioners winter fuel allowance and hit industry with net zero taxes.

    Trump hit most nations initially with higher tariffs than the UK and even now UK tariffs are no higher than most nations face and far lower than China has

    Are you under instruction from CCHQ to post that first paragraph several times every day?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,866

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    But remember, you must never tell the voters they are wrong, or that they have been misled, because that just annoys them.

    (It's an unfortunate consequence of the human psyche, and the basic hack underpinning most contricks. Is there best practice for dealing with this sort of thing? In education, it boils down to gradual gentle repetition of points that undermine misconceptions, but that's quite slow and not very effective.)
    People *hate* being told they are wrong. But when eventually the facts slam them in the face there is a real risk that they turn on the people promising that only the other people would be slammed.

    Basic reality - most voters are "low information". They don't know, they don't want to know. Which makes it very simple to chant slogans as if they were facts.

    How do we combat it? Stop trying to blame and shame. It isn't the fault of the disinterested voter that they have been sucked in. Progressives need to paint a picture of the world these voters can engage with and propose solutions. Our problem is that blame and shame gives you that self-righteous glow...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,138
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    Since the general election the main net swing has been Labour to Reform not Tory to Reform.

    Hence most polls have the Tories gaining about 30 seats net even as Reform gain about 150 seats net, mainly from Labour
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,573
    Nigelb said:

    One for PB's historians.

    Since hiring Kristina Wong from Breitbart News as the Secretary of the Navy Communications Director this week, the
    @SECNAV account has twice posted the incorrect date of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, “a date which will live in infamy.”

    https://x.com/travisakers/status/1916560559849226687

    The posts also show the SECNAV standing in front of the memorial, which prominently displays the date...

    MAGA don't like thinking about Pearl Habour as it was one of the key moments of the end of the US isolationism of 20s/30s.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,623
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I'm not a partisan Tory - I often vote Lib Dem in local elections - but I think my view is that the Tories have (deservedly) received a general election kicking that will - and should - keep them out of power for more than one election. So I am not sure it matters where the votes go. I despise the Fukkers but they are about to expose themselves as idiots by trying to run local councils. And in any case, the government is behaving more like a conservative government than the last one did, which pissed public money up against the wall with gay abandoned while simultaneously managing to hollow out public services.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,693
    Dura_Ace said:


    Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels.

    I confess, I thought that was genuinely funny, Mr Durex_Ace :lol:
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,113
    edited 7:51AM
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    This further highlights that most Maga are imbeciles who shouldn’t be allowed to vote . Not sure why some commentators want to apply alleged laudable reasons for their voting . We hear the poor downtrodden ,left behind victims of globalisation blah blah .

    Commentators need to just call a spade a spade . The vast majority of Maga are low information , low IQ trailer trash .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,402
    Apparently North Korea has officially said that its troops are fighting with Russia.

    I wonder how the fat orange man feels about that?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 683

    Battlebus said:

    It's not going to get any better based on Trump's thrashing around with Ukraine and tariffs.

    Russia's mantra is that if any part of Russia is attacked, they'll go nuclear. QED just call the parts of Ukraine it wants as Russian and get Trump to agree (with a nuclear gun to his head).

    Which is ridiculous for several reasons:

    *) It is so obviously blackmail, that it means any nuclear-capable power can just invade and annex territory and use the same argument.
    *) They've said it throughout the war, and did not use nukes even when Kursk was invaded.
    *) Nukes would give Russia zero tactical or strategic advantage, and many disadvantages.
    Agreed but if you are Trump, you're looking to hit on the weaker guy to get the 'win' so he can appear to be the great negotiator. It's all short term image and nothing like the statesmanship needed. Bottom line for Europe, including the EU, is more spending on weapons which is a sort of win for the US.

    How will it be paid for and will Reform argue that we don't need it (and weakening Europe in the longer term)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,274

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    But remember, you must never tell the voters they are wrong, or that they have been misled, because that just annoys them.

    (It's an unfortunate consequence of the human psyche, and the basic hack underpinning most contricks. Is there best practice for dealing with this sort of thing? In education, it boils down to gradual gentle repetition of points that undermine misconceptions, but that's quite slow and not very effective.)
    People *hate* being told they are wrong. But when eventually the facts slam them in the face there is a real risk that they turn on the people promising that only the other people would be slammed.

    Basic reality - most voters are "low information". They don't know, they don't want to know. Which makes it very simple to chant slogans as if they were facts.

    How do we combat it? Stop trying to blame and shame. It isn't the fault of the disinterested voter that they have been sucked in. Progressives need to paint a picture of the world these voters can engage with and propose solutions. Our problem is that blame and shame gives you that self-righteous glow...
    This.

    You need to sell a positive message of progress. Not a hair shirt of “You are guilty, by existing.”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,138

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
    Albeit many Reform voters think Letby is innocent
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,534
    Nigelb said:

    As for childish insults "call centre manager", etc, there are those far more deserving.

    The department store manager (who probably doesn't possess the skills required by that role)...
    The craziest bit in the Time interview is Trump saying the US is like a "department store," where he personally sets "what I consider to be a fair price" that countries have to pay to do business with us.
    https://x.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1916470732671877363

    Another example of Trump's 1980s mentality.

    Perhaps someone should explain that department stores have shut down and people shop on the internet now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,577

    Apparently North Korea has officially said that its troops are fighting with Russia.

    I wonder how the fat orange man feels about that?

    Haven't they officially declared war on Ukraine?

    Gives Trump an off-ramp.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,881
    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,842
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
    Public sector headcount, benefits, state and public sector pensions. All three need to be cut.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,364
    'We have to be seen to be doing something performative about trans kids..'

    'I know, let's check them for autism and ADHD. Some kids have already been waiting for over a year for an assessment so we can lose the issue in the long grass.'

    'Trebles all round!'

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1916544629815546035
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,274

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I'm not a partisan Tory - I often vote Lib Dem in local elections - but I think my view is that the Tories have (deservedly) received a general election kicking that will - and should - keep them out of power for more than one election. So I am not sure it matters where the votes go. I despise the Fukkers but they are about to expose themselves as idiots by trying to run local councils. And in any case, the government is behaving more like a conservative government than the last one did, which pissed public money up against the wall with gay abandoned while simultaneously managing to hollow out public services.
    Depending on Reform being unable to run local councils sounds very like the thinking about the National Ramblers in France. “They will collapse under their own contradictions.”
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,534
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
    Public sector headcount, benefits, state and public sector pensions. All three need to be cut.
    They do.

    And spending on the old and poor need to be cut.

    And taxes on the rich and property need to rise.

    Everyone needs to lose out, we all have to be seen to be 'in it together'.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,557
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,693
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
    The employers NI threshold fall had an effect on business and hiring decisions. The employment rights bill has been watered down significantly and most employers seem to be shrugging it off. Job security should in principle be a driver for consumer confidence, though I think that effect will be marginal too.
    A quick check shows that real terms pay in the private and public sectors are growing at a rate well ahead of inflation.

    Data - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2025

    The Tories really need to stop wibbling, and do some politics.
  • vikvik Posts: 256

    vik said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Canadian election certainly seems to be tightening right at the end of the campaign.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2025_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    Canadians are sooooooo due a change election, and the swap leader out at last moment gimmick was never going to work.

    Nor will electing liberals be seen as necessary to combat Trump. As we see with UK, people who will never vote Starmer still rally to the flag when under attack from Trump, but rally to government and flag energy, expressing something positive about Starmer, doesn’t transfer to real votes for Starmer or his party.
    The "change in government" has already happened with a new Prime Minister, who is actively getting rid of unpopular policies such as the Carbon Tax.

    In Australia, it is very common, particularly at the State level, for old & unpopular governments to swap out leaders and get one more election victory. For example, in New South Wales, the Bob Carr Labor government had been in power for 10 years and was becoming unpopular by 2005. The Party swapped out the Premier to Morris Iemma, who then changed some of Carr's policies, such as eliminating a vendor tax on properties, and was then able to reverse a polling deficit & win the 2007 State Election.
    Worked here for the Tories in 1992 (Thatcher to Major) and 2019 (May to Johnson). Didn't work Johnson to Sunak via Truss - or Wilson to Callaghan for Labour. Nor Blair to Brown.
    The key factor is the opposition leader.

    Truss to Sunak would have worked if Corbyn or Rebecca Long-Bailey had been opposition leader. It didn't work because Keir Starmer was a bland reassuring centrist.

    Also, of course, sometimes the political & economic situation is just so bad that people want a change of government, no matter who is opposition leader.

    I don't think that either Canada or Australia are currently in an economic situation where voters would vote for anyone who is leader of the opposition.

    Regarding Canada, I think if Erin O'Toole hadn't been forced out from the Conservative leadership, then there would have been a significantly higher chance of a polling miss & a change in government. O'Toole is exactly the type of safe reassuring centrist whom people are comfortable electing as a new Prime Minister.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,881
    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,364

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
    Public sector headcount, benefits, state and public sector pensions. All three need to be cut.
    They do.

    And spending on the old and poor need to be cut.

    And taxes on the rich and property need to rise.

    Everyone needs to lose out, we all have to be seen to be 'in it together'.
    I'm pretty sure in which order these measures would have priority. In a couple of cases they may not even happen.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 683
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    How to dismantle headcount (attempt number 652). Usually this is by outsourcing statutory duties to commercial operators e.g. bins, waste, fostering, adult social care etc. Not that many other duties to outsource. Or they could give up enforcement of laws such as Trading Standards or get the police to turn a blind eye to the less harmful areas and concentrate on 'visibility' or whatever the Daily Mail thinks.

    The other way is to shutter Parliament for a decade to stop them passing new laws with a cost associated with them or if you have to have a Parliament, then get them to remove all the red tape that these laws generate (copyright Boris Johnson)

    No matter which way you turn, it's been tried before with limited success. Belt tightening is only achieved with the agreement of the populace at large and good luck with that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,842
    edited 8:05AM
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Indeed, the fall in CGT is intertwined with the rush for the exit by high net worth individuals. As lots of people have been telling me, what's the point in staying here when the government just wants to tax people into oblivion so that the lazy can sit on benefits all day pretending to be depressed.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,623
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
    The employers NI threshold fall had an effect on business and hiring decisions. The employment rights bill has been watered down significantly and most employers seem to be shrugging it off. Job security should in principle be a driver for consumer confidence, though I think that effect will be marginal too.
    A quick check shows that real terms pay in the private and public sectors are growing at a rate well ahead of inflation.

    Data - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2025

    The Tories really need to stop wibbling, and do some politics.
    If private sector pay is rising, and you do not increase public sector pay, how will you recruit public sector employees?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,819
    nico67 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    This further highlights that most Maga are imbeciles who shouldn’t be allowed to vote . Not sure why some commentators want to apply alleged laudable reasons for their voting . We hear the poor downtrodden ,left behind victims of globalisation blah blah .

    Commentators need to just call a spade a spade . The vast majority of Maga are low information , low IQ trailer trash .
    I think Rochdale is right about this, though.

    Just calling them cult members - however true, or satisfying - is not very productive.
    No one is going to persuade or educate very many of them, but the effort has to be made.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,623

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I'm not a partisan Tory - I often vote Lib Dem in local elections - but I think my view is that the Tories have (deservedly) received a general election kicking that will - and should - keep them out of power for more than one election. So I am not sure it matters where the votes go. I despise the Fukkers but they are about to expose themselves as idiots by trying to run local councils. And in any case, the government is behaving more like a conservative government than the last one did, which pissed public money up against the wall with gay abandoned while simultaneously managing to hollow out public services.
    Depending on Reform being unable to run local councils sounds very like the thinking about the National Ramblers in France. “They will collapse under their own contradictions.”
    It's not necessarily a dependency on that, it's just the political cycle. The Tories get a shellacking, they are back in 2 or 3 elections time
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 287

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Neoliberalism is the problem and the shitty response to its fellow traveller inequality is being orchestrated as a distraction and power grab by trump.

    Fascism doesn’t thrive in a happy place.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,881
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Indeed, the fall in CGT is intertwined with the rush for the exit by high net worth individuals.
    Of course, it’s a trend. Wealthy people respond to expected taxes as much as taxes already announced. @TimS and @kjh are too dumb to understand this

    See also:

    “Britain’s non-dom crackdown has become Reeves’s most costly mistake
    Ultra-wealthy exodus is drying up an important revenue stream for the Treasury”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/28/britains-non-dom-crackdown-reevess-costly-mistake/

    The stupid Tories started this with Hunt fecking around with non dom status, but now Rachel from Accounts has made it ten times worse
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,842

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.


    Don’t forget we have got Angela Rayner’s workers rights bill to come soon which won’t help.
    The employers NI threshold fall had an effect on business and hiring decisions. The employment rights bill has been watered down significantly and most employers seem to be shrugging it off. Job security should in principle be a driver for consumer confidence, though I think that effect will be marginal too.
    A quick check shows that real terms pay in the private and public sectors are growing at a rate well ahead of inflation.

    Data - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2025

    The Tories really need to stop wibbling, and do some politics.
    If private sector pay is rising, and you do not increase public sector pay, how will you recruit public sector employees?
    Don't? There's enough of them already.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,866

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I'm not a partisan Tory - I often vote Lib Dem in local elections - but I think my view is that the Tories have (deservedly) received a general election kicking that will - and should - keep them out of power for more than one election. So I am not sure it matters where the votes go. I despise the Fukkers but they are about to expose themselves as idiots by trying to run local councils. And in any case, the government is behaving more like a conservative government than the last one did, which pissed public money up against the wall with gay abandoned while simultaneously managing to hollow out public services.
    Let's all be under no doubts - Reform are going to be controlling councils on Friday morning. Reform are running more candidates than any other party, and can expect to pick up more seats than any other party.

    Who are these new candidates? We know there will be fruitcakes and loonies - FukUK attracts them and the party isn't able to vet them properly. We can also suspect there will be some genuinely interesting new people - older business types, younger more dynamic types. Not every Reform councillor will be mad or bad.

    Some councils will have brilliant officers who will temper the mad and bad ones. Some won't. Others will get the genuinely interesting people into positions of power.

    My point is that we would be unwise to just write off all the new councillors and administrations.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,402

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    But the latest pay data showed an increase of 5.9% in average pay, well above inflation.
    Which is entirely disconnected from the average person's day-to-day experience.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,881
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”

    That was lazy journalism. It’s a non sequitur. The wealthy may or may not be leaving the UK, but that has no bearing whatsoever on this year’s CGT revenue.

    I have to deal with this sort of journalistic agenda driven writing quite often, it’s quite common in tax articles, though it’s usually when the Telegraph are doing a piece.
    No, it’s because you’re too stupid to grasp that the really rich move proactively. It’s one reason they are really rich
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,643
    I'm thinking about dipping into FTSE for investments again. Feel very exposed to US at the moment. Was interesting to see Balckrock agrees:
    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/blackrock-larry-fink-uk-economy-keir-starmer-growth-b1224196.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,842
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Indeed, the fall in CGT is intertwined with the rush for the exit by high net worth individuals.
    Of course, it’s a trend. Wealthy people respond to expected taxes as much as taxes already announced. @TimS and @kjh are too dumb to understand this

    See also:

    “Britain’s non-dom crackdown has become Reeves’s most costly mistake
    Ultra-wealthy exodus is drying up an important revenue stream for the Treasury”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/28/britains-non-dom-crackdown-reevess-costly-mistake/

    The stupid Tories started this with Hunt fecking around with non dom status, but now Rachel from Accounts has made it ten times worse
    It's the IHT rule change that's driving people away aiui.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,442

    Reeves deserves to get at least some of the blame. She has been swallowed up by Treasury orthodoxy and now parrots whatever they tell her is true whether it is or not.

    Radical idea, but you can’t cut your way to economic growth. I think we’ve tested that nonsense into the ground. And yet here she is, demanding growth whilst cutting to reduce the flow of money circulating through the economy…

    Treasury orthodoxy is another one of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

    I'm frustrated by Treasury orthodoxy.
    You're banging on about the deep state.
    They've crashed the economy by ignoring the experts.
  • (1/5)

    It's really too early to say how bad the economy is. I still think things will look very different in three years time. Whatever people think, Labour has a long time to turn things around, so really now is the best time for things to go badly as it gives the most amount of time for things to improve.

    If the election was next year I'd be thinking differently.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,557
    edited 8:20AM
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Now sit down, think very very hard and read @TimS post again. Now concentrate and see if you can see what is wrong with what you said. High IQ my arse.

    Wealthy people may be leaving, but that stat doesn't tell you that because those receipts are for CGT prior to even a Labour Govt. You twit.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,643

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    But the latest pay data showed an increase of 5.9% in average pay, well above inflation.
    I'd be interested to know how far this is due to reducing lower wage jobs (perhaps due to NI changes?) rather than general pay rises.

    Honestly though, it feels like ONS needs to modernise some of their statistics. Surveys of businesses seem a little outdated... isn't it possible to just look at PAYE data or job adverts online with salaries?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,475

    'We have to be seen to be doing something performative about trans kids..'

    'I know, let's check them for autism and ADHD. Some kids have already been waiting for over a year for an assessment so we can lose the issue in the long grass.'

    'Trebles all round!'

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1916544629815546035

    OT. A review on Theroux's trip to the West bank

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/apr/27/the-settlers-review-this-vital-film-forces-louis-theroux-to-do-something-hes-never-done-before
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,339

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beachy Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I'm not a partisan Tory - I often vote Lib Dem in local elections - but I think my view is that the Tories have (deservedly) received a general election kicking that will - and should - keep them out of power for more than one election. So I am not sure it matters where the votes go. I despise the Fukkers but they are about to expose themselves as idiots by trying to run local councils. And in any case, the government is behaving more like a conservative government than the last one did, which pissed public money up against the wall with gay abandoned while simultaneously managing to hollow out public services.
    At some point the tories are going to have to move past this feverish khlopomanstvo which has consumed them since 2016.

    They can't out-fukk the Fukkers, particularly not with a perma-irked globalist DEI recruit at the helm.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,881
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Indeed, the fall in CGT is intertwined with the rush for the exit by high net worth individuals.
    Of course, it’s a trend. Wealthy people respond to expected taxes as much as taxes already announced. @TimS and @kjh are too dumb to understand this

    See also:

    “Britain’s non-dom crackdown has become Reeves’s most costly mistake
    Ultra-wealthy exodus is drying up an important revenue stream for the Treasury”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/28/britains-non-dom-crackdown-reevess-costly-mistake/

    The stupid Tories started this with Hunt fecking around with non dom status, but now Rachel from Accounts has made it ten times worse
    It's the IHT rule change that's driving people away aiui.
    As the telegraph notes it’s more the vibe in toto

    The rise in CGT
    The IHT changes (certainly major)
    The attack on private schools
    The fecking around with non-dom

    I would add in

    Broad demographic changes in London which have now gone beyond “interestingly diverse”, plus Brexit (I say that as a leaver), plus a general malaise in British life

    Put it all together and it’s toxic for mobile elite people in London and the SE. They’re not here for the weather are they?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,534
    A year ago:

    PB lefties talking about price rises
    PB righties talking about pay rises

    Now:

    PB lefties talking about pay rises
    PB righties talking about price rises
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,794

    (1/5)

    It's really too early to say how bad the economy is. I still think things will look very different in three years time. Whatever people think, Labour has a long time to turn things around, so really now is the best time for things to go badly as it gives the most amount of time for things to improve.

    If the election was next year I'd be thinking differently.

    The slight challenge to your optimism is that this iteration of the Labour Party (as opposed to the Blair/Brown version) is ignorant in the extreme about business and Rachel Reeves is most definitely a fraud. If you don't understand how business works at a grassroots level you will never get an economy to grow. They can hope for a stroke of global luck I guess.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,866
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
    Public sector headcount, benefits, state and public sector pensions. All three need to be cut.
    I don't disagree that reform is needed - I think we need to remake the state at a wholesale level. What I would challenge is the detail of how you think we should do it:

    Public Sector Headcount - many layers of management could be cut and I'm sure there will be a few agencies we could merge / remove without issue. But in there we have stuff like the Passport Office, DVLA etc - and service from these is already dire. If you cut heads without reform you'll find the service collapses and that makes for unhappy voters.

    Benefits - we already pay poverty-level numbers for practically everything. Compare our unemployment pay, our maternity pay, our sick pay - we get so little compared to our neighbours. If you cut these further you cut cash which directly recirculates through the local economy which means less businesses and less jobs.
    And we pay a ludicrous amount of in-work support to people where their wages are insufficient to pay their bills. I'm happy to plan to abolish these subsidies to big business but you can't just cut them without a dire effect on the economy

    Pensions? I take the point. Gold plated seems like an understatement for many of them. At the same time our state pension is very low compared to competitor economies close-by. I would look to rebalance as much as cut.

    My challenge on all of this is that you can't cut provision and assume the demand goes away. Its not a zero sum game where you cut one side of the equation with zero cost added to the other side. Make a lot of people much poorer and you tank the economy - which creates many other problems.

    Which is why wholesale reform is needed. Cutting our way to growth has been tried and it always fails. The system we have doesn't work, so we need to change the system.
  • (2/5)

    Labour need to go a lot further on planning reform but they've made a good start. The Tories and Reform as best I can tell love NIMBYism or at least will do nothing to challenge it.

    I am also confident they will go for zonal pricing which will make an impact on energy bills in some of the country where frankly it's ridiculous their bills aren't basically zero (i.e. Scotland).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,963
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”

    That was lazy journalism. It’s a non sequitur. The wealthy may or may not be leaving the UK, but that has no bearing whatsoever on this year’s CGT revenue.

    I have to deal with this sort of journalistic agenda driven writing quite often, it’s quite common in tax articles, though it’s usually when the Telegraph are doing a piece.
    No, it’s because you’re too stupid to grasp that the really rich move proactively. It’s one reason they are really rich
    Even if we were to suppose that people in 2023 were leaving the country in anticipation of a Labour election victory - and given that its my job to know what they’re doing and my private client colleagues report to me regularly on activity levels so that I can then talk to journalists about it, I know what’s happening as it is happening…but anyway, when it does happen the immediate impact on disposals - and hence the following year’s CGT - is either neutral or positive.

    Actually what’s happened so far is that some ultra high net worth individuals left after the non-dom changes were confirmed (though note they benefit from a transition period so they was no need to hurry). Nobody left based on expected CGT changes. The ultra rich don’t need to worry about that stuff.

    I’m not arguing that tax isn’t price-elastic. I’m saying the CGT data this year have nothing to do with people leaving the country.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,693
    edited 8:29AM
    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    The turmoil in the markets started with Trump.
    Ah, it’s all Trumps fault and labour are blameless 👍
    That's really your take ?
    Certainly wasn't bondegezou's.
    Fishing was right about economic optimism. It was falling well before the market correction and a lot of it is very much homegrown.
    This is how the blame game works.

    MAGA woman learns the tax code she hates so much was actually signed into law by Trump—then blames Obama.

    HOST: You didn’t like Biden & Harris tax code?
    WOMAN: I did not.
    HOST: Would you ever vote for it again?
    WOMAN: No!
    HOST: It was Trump’s tax code.
    WOMAN: No! It was Obama's! It was Obama's!

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1916635276698415602
    This further highlights that most Maga are imbeciles who shouldn’t be allowed to vote . Not sure why some commentators want to apply alleged laudable reasons for their voting . We hear the poor downtrodden ,left behind victims of globalisation blah blah .

    Commentators need to just call a spade a spade . The vast majority of Maga are low information , low IQ trailer trash .
    I think Rochdale is right about this, though.

    Just calling them cult members - however true, or satisfying - is not very productive.
    No one is going to persuade or educate very many of them, but the effort has to be made.
    I think there's truth in that, but I think that commentators - especially here in the UK (naybe Western Europe) where we no longer understand Christendom at a gut level - underestimate how much that a big chunk of "MAGA" are part of what is effectively a cult.

    A cult involves an irrational, ingrained commitment which will not be shifted at all easily, or via rational means. It will not be unpicked easily.

    Just as there is validity, but not complete coherence, in comparing Trump's regime to the lists of characteristics of a fascist movements that @viewcode (iirc) hates finds distatsteful, the same goes for those lists of characteristics of a cult.

    I'd identify especially those around eg excessive loyalty to a charismatic leader, isolation from the wider world, an us-vs-them mentality, suspension of critical faculties, and perhaps financial exploitation.

    For parts of the MAGA religious wing, they have integrated their political policies with their theology - which is a mirror to political Islam.

    One of my more esoteric comparisons of Trumpists is to the Bitterenders from the Boer War, who were so committed to their cause that they would rather see their society laid waste than give up their cause.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,642
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
    Albeit many Reform voters think Letby is innocent
    How do we know that? I suspect quite a lot of people across the spectrum believe there is doubt in the case, at the least (I am one). But I don't recall a specific survey of voting intentions plus Letby beliefs...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,963
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It didn't START in America - economic optimism has been crashing since Labour started talking down the economy and then kicked the private sector in the balls with their disastrous budget and employment regulations and various other socialist stupidities. And the lower energy prices that Trump's incompetence has caused may actually help us more than the reduction in trade hurts. It's not clear how that will play out yet.

    Unlike Labour's incompetence, which is plain for everybody to see.

    Trump probably hasn't helped much, but this is almost entirely home-grown.

    Income from Capital Gains Tax is DOWN even as the Tax has gone up. The Laffer Curve is real and Labour have comprehensively fucked the economy
    Income from CGT this January is for disposals made between April 2023 and April 2024.

    There will be an increase in CGT in Jan 2026 because individuals were liquidating gains ahead of an expected rate rise.

    Then there will be a drop in CGT take in Jan 2027 as those timing differences unwind.
    Yep. Don't expect @leon to get anything right. Just superficial reading of X. No analysis. No IQ.
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/capital-gains-tax-receipts-h78d8tkrh

    “Capital gains tax receipts fall 10% as wealthy exit UK”



    Indeed, the fall in CGT is intertwined with the rush for the exit by high net worth individuals.
    Of course, it’s a trend. Wealthy people respond to expected taxes as much as taxes already announced. @TimS and @kjh are too dumb to understand this

    See also:

    “Britain’s non-dom crackdown has become Reeves’s most costly mistake
    Ultra-wealthy exodus is drying up an important revenue stream for the Treasury”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/28/britains-non-dom-crackdown-reevess-costly-mistake/

    The stupid Tories started this with Hunt fecking around with non dom status, but now Rachel from Accounts has made it ten times worse
    It's the IHT rule change that's driving people away aiui.
    IHT on protected offshore trusts, ie IHT for non-doms. That’s been the main trigger. Notably the ultra rich oligarchs / oil sheikhs so far.

    CGT and carried interest not particularly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,138

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Govts get the blame. Suspect numbers are so low in part because Lab supporters also feel gloomy thanks to Trump. The saving grace for Labour might be recent memories of Tory incompetence...

    The latter simply means unhappy voters will go to Reform, or LibDem/Green, instead of turning to Kemi's lot.
    What I find notable about the rise of the Fukkers is how unarsed the pb.com tories are about it as Mrs Badenough drives the tory charabanc off Beach Head and sends their polling to Trussian levels. Even HYUFD seems to be chill with it because apparently KB might get a job as Welsh Secretary in Farage's cabinet.
    I suspect they are comfortable with Aunty Nige because Nige promises those gifts they desire but dare not ask for, like sending Johnny Foreigner home, selling off the NHS for tax cuts, reintroducing selective education at aged 11 and (although Nigel isn't on board yet) hanging Lucy Letby.
    Albeit many Reform voters think Letby is innocent
    How do we know that? I suspect quite a lot of people across the spectrum believe there is doubt in the case, at the least (I am one). But I don't recall a specific survey of voting intentions plus Letby beliefs...
    Most of her support seems to be in the Daily Mail comments or on X so take a guess how most of them vote!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,623

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    On topic, April bill rises have kicked in, as have higher price/tax/wage costs/tarrifs all round but with no commensurate increase in real-terms pay. People (rightly) see more of the same coming down the line and no real plan to tackle it. And they're not sure it can be.

    So, the squeeze of the last three years is continuing. They are not exactly full of the joys of May, and rightly so.

    Tariffs is the odd one out there. They don’t contribute to UK cost of living. In fact they have probably had a deflationary effect so far, both through dumping and the oil price. It’s the American consumer they screw, not us.

    The damage from Trump’s shenanigans has been the market turmoil, including the rise in UK gilt yields which badly need to uncouple from the US.

    Real terms pay is doing OK at the moment. The fundamentals for the worker aren’t bad, certainly much better than in 2022/3 at the height of the Ukraine inflation spike, but they’re still shit for government finances.
    Imagine heading into this with a government that decided to cut borrowing rather than add to it, gilts would have uncoupled from treasuries very early on. Instead the call centre manager decided to add £60bn per year for public sector pay rises and lower growth and markets are pricing in much higher gilt supply. Absolutely self inflicted. The government should have cut spending by £30-40bn per year and reduced borrowing to build up much more fiscal headroom. Cutting headcount is still the only way to do it, eventually the government is going to have to do it, but the closer we get to an election the more resentment there will be among the people who are let go and their families. Such a completely stupid decision not to do it on day one.
    "Cutting headcount" would not save "£30-40bn per year".
    What would you actually cut to save that amount ?

    I'm not saying it's impossible - look for example at the Greek retrenchment - but you need to be honest about the process.
    Public sector headcount, benefits, state and public sector pensions. All three need to be cut.
    I don't disagree that reform is needed - I think we need to remake the state at a wholesale level. What I would challenge is the detail of how you think we should do it:

    Public Sector Headcount - many layers of management could be cut and I'm sure there will be a few agencies we could merge / remove without issue. But in there we have stuff like the Passport Office, DVLA etc - and service from these is already dire. If you cut heads without reform you'll find the service collapses and that makes for unhappy voters.

    Benefits - we already pay poverty-level numbers for practically everything. Compare our unemployment pay, our maternity pay, our sick pay - we get so little compared to our neighbours. If you cut these further you cut cash which directly recirculates through the local economy which means less businesses and less jobs.
    And we pay a ludicrous amount of in-work support to people where their wages are insufficient to pay their bills. I'm happy to plan to abolish these subsidies to big business but you can't just cut them without a dire effect on the economy

    Pensions? I take the point. Gold plated seems like an understatement for many of them. At the same time our state pension is very low compared to competitor economies close-by. I would look to rebalance as much as cut.

    My challenge on all of this is that you can't cut provision and assume the demand goes away. Its not a zero sum game where you cut one side of the equation with zero cost added to the other side. Make a lot of people much poorer and you tank the economy - which creates many other problems.

    Which is why wholesale reform is needed. Cutting our way to growth has been tried and it always fails. The system we have doesn't work, so we need to change the system.
    While you say benefits are very low - and for say a single healthy person out of a job they are - they are also cumulative, so if you can persuade the state you are ill, and/or disabled, and/or have a family, there are plenty of people getting benefits they would have to earn £30k+ a year to match, and who find themselves so comfortably off they can't be arsed to work. Similarly with pensions, where as you point out the state pension is comparatively small and many pensioners have to depend on benefits to pay the rent, or have small personal pensions and would suffer if you tunkered with say NI
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