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A new public funding model – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,377
edited March 24 in General
A new public funding model – politicalbetting.com

With UK government borrowing at an estimated £120 billion a year it is clear that tax-and-spend will no longer work in terms of investing in order to generate growth.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 603
    During Covid, the 'Essex Entrepreneurs' I know applied for Covid support like it was going out a fashion. Can't say that any of them paid them back. It's been free money for all. Contrast this with my experience (FPT) in helping the less fortunate with benefits, it was more of the same (free money)

    There appears to be two issues with the amount of debt being run up. The first is badly drafted laws - applied at pace as they say. And extremely poor administration of the rules that flow from the legislation. Which is also why there are so many issues with the likes of Thames Water (piss poor oversight) and the Student Loan Company (piss poor audit of applications)

    IMHO the blame lies at Westminster.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    POPPY is an idea with an acronym. What more does the Chancellor need?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    Meanwhile, I see Reeves has adopted the right wing term ‘tax and spend’ is looking to keep President Trump happy by excluding American tech companies from a tax on American tech companies (as warned on pb).

    UK mulls big tech tax changes to avoid US tariffs
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j0dgym8w1o
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    Sort 'pothole plague' or lose cash, councils warned
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0eg39e01w8o

    The Prime Minister demonstrates his commitment to local democracy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,070
    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    One obvious point: such measure are, by their nature, a necessarily one off. But with very long term consequences.

    As we saw with the COVID splurge, if you get it wrong, living with the results will be painful for a very long time.

    The other obvious point is that a large dedicated infrastructure fund would lift a lot of pressure on existing government spending - and potentially allow another series of undisciplined spending mistakes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    There will be a lot more of them once the government has decimated the civil service, the schools squeeze hits, and banks and shops close branches.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,454
    Thanks for the header Professor Idea.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,454
    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,312
    edited March 24
    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,030
    Talking of money is this something we should worry about ?

    It seems mainly crypto bro’s on it at the moment and they always have an agenda.

    Is the BOE quietly bailing out pension funds or is it something more benign.


    https://x.com/moving_charlie/status/1903933599688052822?s=61
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,312
    FPT
    tlg86 said:

    Liverpool gave up UNESCO World Heritage status for this:

    https://x.com/Luke_M20/status/1903860409255199223

    It gets worse, this is when there's a test event of 25,000, just imagine a proper match day with 50,000 plus fans.

    https://x.com/Tony_Scott11/status/1903780819086245985
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,454

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    Liverpool gave up UNESCO World Heritage status for this:

    https://x.com/Luke_M20/status/1903860409255199223

    It gets worse, this is when there's a test event of 25,000, just imagine a proper match day with 50,000 plus fans.

    https://x.com/Tony_Scott11/status/1903780819086245985
    To be fair, that's no worse than Arsenal tube at the moment (TfL have taken an age to do the lifts at Holloway Road). Sadly for anyone going to Everton next season, you've got one station to go back to.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,217

    Sort 'pothole plague' or lose cash, councils warned
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0eg39e01w8o

    The Prime Minister demonstrates his commitment to local democracy.

    My question here is why they want the "I really did spend this on potholes" reports. Do they have past experience from other ring fenced grants that there is risk of local authority mismanagement or failure to actually spend the cash? Or have they just dumped a bureaucratic reporting requirement on councils to make it seem like they're being careful with public funds?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    How? Whatever else Andrew Tate might be, he is not Head of Isis.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,454

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    How? Whatever else Andrew Tate might be, he is not Head of Isis.
    Some people would consider him a terrorist (or consider an incel inspired attack to be terrorism).

    But that's not what I'm getting at. We don't know what he'd be searching. Presumably he looked up the Al-Qaeda manual, but we're told he wasn't an Islamist terrorist.

    The police should have been saying "we're keeping an open mind as to the motivation for this attack".
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,121

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Was it a tedious bit of bureaucracy that cost money and got in the way of TW's core purpose?

    That purpose being to direct money to the owners.

    (Look, I'm all for capitalism and businesses finding new ways to do well by doing good. But a lot of our current problems seem to come from businesses finding cheat codes in the system, so they can do even better by doing bad. The shadier end of Private Equity. Buy-to-let. Those franchised "university" courses.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Nationalisation might be the only answer. The only way the private sector will want to get involved is at such a low price that a profit is guaranteed for asset stripping. A period of government ownership while the basics are restored – an asset register; proper waste management rather than waiting for a storm and chucking it all in the river while limits are suspended; investment in new facilities. Account for the asset on the government's books so it does not look like the money has disappeared.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,874
    edited March 24
    Foxy said:

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    Or working nights, shifts, or on holiday.

    Our employment rate is pretty good by international measures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_employment_rate
    And most of the inactive are early retired or students - and for women, carers. It's not a bad idea to try and get more people into work, but it does feel like a bit of a red herring when it comes to economic performance. I would rank it as such:
    • Demographic profile - not as bad as people think
    • Inactivity rate - middling to good. Been roughly flat for decades.
    • Unemployment rate - very good
    • Hours worked per week - down about 4% over the last 25 years. Down a bit since COVID. Not sure how we compare internationally, but 31.8 hours for all workers doesn't seem too bad.
    • Productivity growth - flat since COVID. Very slow between 2008 and 2020.
    It's also worth reminding ourselves that GDP per capita growth was decent after 2008. It's really just after COVID that things have flatlined.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,934
    Morning PB.

    Starmer has done well walking the Trump--Europe tightrope, enabling him to exercise influence so far, but going so far as to say he likes and respects Trump is his first major misjudgement , or also of those advising him.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,958
    The header says "All these projects would spur GDP growth"
    No, they will all result in a one-off increase in output. Economic growth requires continuing increases in output. The POPPY fund would itself also have to grow continuously.
    Do one-off jumps in output spur further growth? There's no evidence of that. But a one-off shift in technology which opens up a range of new opportunities can do that. However that is not in any government's powers.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,361

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Many, many many decades ago I was employed in consultancy and involved in a large takeover of a TV manufacturer. There was no fixed asset register, and as part of the acquisition one had to be created, but what was produced was as useful as a chocolate teapot. Lorries were missing, an overhead conveyer belt that was 100 m long carrying TVs was not on it. I couldn't find a fork lift truck because I had approached it from the wrong direction and it had a different number plate on the front and back. It was a shambles.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,904
    Both previous and current governments have been eyeing up public sector pension funds and looking to get these funds to pay for some such stuff.

    Meanwhile Labour is sounding increasingly desperate in sending people onto the airwaves to try and insist that New Austerity is somehow different from Austerity....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,070
    Foxy said:

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    Or working nights, shifts, or on holiday.

    Our employment rate is pretty good by international measures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_employment_rate
    They aren't on shifts or holiday.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    How? Whatever else Andrew Tate might be, he is not Head of Isis.
    Some people would consider him a terrorist (or consider an incel inspired attack to be terrorism).

    But that's not what I'm getting at. We don't know what he'd be searching. Presumably he looked up the Al-Qaeda manual, but we're told he wasn't an Islamist terrorist.

    The police should have been saying "we're keeping an open mind as to the motivation for this attack".
    There is an open philosophical question of how to classify self-radicalised lone wolf attackers. If he were directed by AQ or Isis then he'd not need to search for instructions because they'd send him whatever he needed. And what would be the point of a terrorist hiding his motive?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,874
    geoffw said:

    The header says "All these projects would spur GDP growth"
    No, they will all result in a one-off increase in output. Economic growth requires continuing increases in output. The POPPY fund would itself also have to grow continuously.
    Do one-off jumps in output spur further growth? There's no evidence of that. But a one-off shift in technology which opens up a range of new opportunities can do that. However that is not in any government's powers.

    I guess the thing would be to have a perpetual programme of government investment that underpins the economy and improves infrastructure over decades, like German rail electrification.

    Edinburgh should really have a small team of local engineers builds a tram network slowly, rather than these one-off projects. The same problem exists for cycle infrastructure, so you go through the same expensive design and planning process for each mile.

    (I also think government does have a role to play with new technology, especially when it can take on some of the risk or when it has positive externalities that don't provide a return to private investors - eg CfD constracts for offshore wind.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Nationalisation might be the only answer. The only way the private sector will want to get involved is at such a low price that a profit is guaranteed for asset stripping. A period of government ownership while the basics are restored – an asset register; proper waste management rather than waiting for a storm and chucking it all in the river while limits are suspended; investment in new facilities. Account for the asset on the government's books so it does not look like the money has disappeared.
    And keep it publicly owned.
    Allow tenders for private sector management of the assets, if you really must.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,051
    Nigelb said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Put them into administration, and fire everyone at Ofwat who had any executive responsibility,

    Water privatisation is a four decade saga of taking the piss.
    More precisely taking the piss and pumping it untreated into rivers, lakes and sea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    Relatedly, on assets registers...

    £2 trillion poorer than previously thought? Assessing changes to household wealth statistics

    https://ifs.org.uk/publications/ps2-trillion-poorer-previously-thought-assessing-changes-household-wealth-statistics
    The total wealth of Britain’s households in 2018 to 2020 was approximately £2.2 trillion less than was previously believed – a 14% reduction. That, at least, is the implication of a recent change in methodology made by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to the UK’s leading official measure of household wealth. The revision makes three changes to previous methodology for valuing households’ pension wealth. Two are clear improvements. But the third change – by far the biggest, by itself subtracting a staggering £2.3 trillion from recorded wealth – is a mistake, stemming from faulty economic reasoning. It is quite possible that the ONS’s revised estimates of household wealth are actually further from the truth than the estimates it started with (themselves undoubtedly flawed). The result is that policymakers lack a reliable set of household wealth statistics on which to base policy...

    ..Two welcome changes have been made to the survey’s methodology. One corrects a serious error in how inflation is accounted for when valuing pensions – an error that has been impacting official wealth estimates for a decade, though the ONS still does not acknowledge explicitly that it was an error. Correcting it increases estimates of total household wealth by around £500 billion. The second welcome change improves estimates of the age at which individuals can start to draw their full pension – subtracting around £300 billion from previous estimates of total household wealth. Unfortunately, the ONS has not gone back and made these two adjustments to estimates for earlier periods.

    The biggest change made by the ONS relates to how the value of future pension income is converted into today’s terms, and subtracts £2.3 trillion from estimates of total household wealth in 2018 to 2020. This change is a mistake, making an already flawed methodology substantially worse. ..
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,180

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    Possibly many are part of the buy to let racket. What should they be doing?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,361
    edited March 24

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    If you are walking around a British town centre doesn't that you make you one of them and if not (as I
    know it isn't), doesn't that mean the people you are seeing could be like you, eg working, but there for other reasons eg between jobs, on a break, WFH, shift work, etc.

    By the way how is the new job going, or haven't you started yet. I hope the new adventure goes well for you.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,752
    Being a simple soul I find Professor Idea's proposal attractive, as is any good idea for wealth creation and increasing prosperity.

    To my ignorant mind a few issues of clarification arise;

    1) Is there a difference between QE and printing money, and if so what is it?

    2) All money represents in some way cost and benefit, and using it involves choices. As to the £500bn made available, the proposal doesn't tell me what it would have been spent on otherwise. What is the answer?

    3) Why would anyone not charge interest when they can make a greater return by doing so?

    4) If it works, why don't all states do it all the time and for ever and with ten times as much cash input?

    5) In my experience so far, if an action looks as if it is inflationary, it always is. What reason have I got to feel differently about this one?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,984

    POPPY is an idea with an acronym. What more does the Chancellor need?

    Three word slogans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    Congrats to Aaron Burr, who killed Alexander Hamilton and tried to secede Louisiana and other Western states from the union. You are no longer the most hated Vice-President in our country's history.
    https://x.com/RepJackKimble/status/1903491740176195884
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,332
    QE didn't finance the government. The government issued debt, some of which the Bank of England bought on a temporary basis, in order to ensure easy financial conditions during a period of economic and financial turmoil and in pursuit of the BOE's 2% inflation target. Those purchases are now being sold, while the debt remains outstanding, which demonstrates that QE was not undertaken to finance the government.
    When the BOE buys government debt it finances the purchase through issuing bank reserves, ie by borrowing from the banking system. It pays interest on these reserves at Bank rate. So if the Bank receives no interest on these bonds then it faces a cash flow problem and becomes insolvent. This is just another way of saying that the interest rate faced by the consolidated public sector is Bank rate, the interest paid on those Bank reserves. Saying that the bonds are zero coupon does not remove the borrowing cost. You could of course pay no interest on reserves, but then you would be funding the spending via an implicit tax on banks (financial repression). And you would risk having no control over short run interest rates. Or you could simply cut Bank rate to zero. But then you would have no ability to control inflation (economists call this fiscal dominance).
    All of which is a complicated way of saying there is no magic money tree. Modern monetary theory is neither modern, nor monetary, nor a theory. It's simply the old lie that there is such a thing as a free lunch, I'm afraid.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,180
    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    Are you saying that if he'd read the words of Mr Tate that would make him a terrorist? I really don't understand your point. He could have watched any number of films ore read any number of books but unless he acted under instruction or in concert it would tell you nothing
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,332

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Have the auditors not noticed that ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,984
    algarkirk said:

    Being a simple soul I find Professor Idea's proposal attractive, as is any good idea for wealth creation and increasing prosperity.

    To my ignorant mind a few issues of clarification arise;

    1) Is there a difference between QE and printing money, and if so what is it?

    2) All money represents in some way cost and benefit, and using it involves choices. As to the £500bn made available, the proposal doesn't tell me what it would have been spent on otherwise. What is the answer?

    3) Why would anyone not charge interest when they can make a greater return by doing so?

    4) If it works, why don't all states do it all the time and for ever and with ten times as much cash input?

    5) In my experience so far, if an action looks as if it is inflationary, it always is. What reason have I got to feel differently about this one?

    It is just a way of "justifying" a big round of infrastructure spending. We have become so obsessed with forecasts, targets and fiscal rules we can no longer say we could actually do with a bit of infrastructure spending.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673
    Nigelb said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Put them into administration, and fire everyone at Ofwat who had any executive responsibility,

    Water privatisation is a four decade saga of taking the piss.
    Foolish idea.

    Digging the new reservoir required and the new sewage works will require many labourers. With many, small teaspoons.

    Vote Malmesbury
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,293
    Some good Ideas, Professor!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,180
    Musk's trans daughter speaks about her father.......there's at least one sane membere of the family!

    It made me laugh.......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5aH-fb6Iow
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,293
    So National Grid reckon Heathrow did NOT need to shut down.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdjy4m0n1exo
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,920

    algarkirk said:

    Being a simple soul I find Professor Idea's proposal attractive, as is any good idea for wealth creation and increasing prosperity.

    To my ignorant mind a few issues of clarification arise;

    1) Is there a difference between QE and printing money, and if so what is it?

    2) All money represents in some way cost and benefit, and using it involves choices. As to the £500bn made available, the proposal doesn't tell me what it would have been spent on otherwise. What is the answer?

    3) Why would anyone not charge interest when they can make a greater return by doing so?

    4) If it works, why don't all states do it all the time and for ever and with ten times as much cash input?

    5) In my experience so far, if an action looks as if it is inflationary, it always is. What reason have I got to feel differently about this one?

    It is just a way of "justifying" a big round of infrastructure spending. We have become so obsessed with forecasts, targets and fiscal rules we can no longer say we could actually do with a bit of infrastructure spending.
    I think Keynes once said "anything we can do, we can afford".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    I thinknyou are taking a 1950s idea of work and projecting it into 2025.

    Let me give you an example. I am a researcher. Most of my stuff is theoretical, but I do the odd empirical paper. My mode of working would be unrecognizable. Spend enormous time alone in front of a white board. Do naps and walk the dog, fiddle around in the garden mulling ideas over. Then time on long zoom converstions with coauthors followed by intense bursts of writing on my lap top in various public locations. All this leads up to submission. Put me in my office (where I do for meetings and work in the organization) my research pipeline would die. I couldn't have a single research idea there. My teaching is from September to January where I am in the auditorium.... the value I create is just not compatible with a factory or survellied office environment. So you could come across me in the middle of the day walking around with a far away look in my eye... that is me working 🤣🤣🤣
    That's also true of some kinds of IT development work - it's about problem solving. Lots of thinking time vs typing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,454
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    Are you saying that if he'd read the words of Mr Tate that would make him a terrorist? I really don't understand your point. He could have watched any number of films ore read any number of books but unless he acted under instruction or in concert it would tell you nothing
    My starting point with Southport is that it was a terrorist attack against women and girls. Does acting alone prevent such an attack being classified as terrorism? From what I can tell, the man that perpetrated the mosque shooting in New Zealand acted alone. Do you consider that to NOT be terrorism?

    We later found out that it may have been the case that Rudakubana had wanted to shoot up his school/college but was prevented from doing so by his father. That may suggest he wanted to shoot people he knew but was prevented from doing so. However, we also know that he had picked out his target before he got in the taxi. He had found that dance class somewhere, most likely the internet.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. But on balance of probabilities, I think the Southport stabbings were an anti-women/girl terrorist attack.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673

    So National Grid reckon Heathrow did NOT need to shut down.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdjy4m0n1exo

    ...and the circular firing squad forms up.

    The enquiry report (if one ever happens) will be fun reading.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,984

    algarkirk said:

    Being a simple soul I find Professor Idea's proposal attractive, as is any good idea for wealth creation and increasing prosperity.

    To my ignorant mind a few issues of clarification arise;

    1) Is there a difference between QE and printing money, and if so what is it?

    2) All money represents in some way cost and benefit, and using it involves choices. As to the £500bn made available, the proposal doesn't tell me what it would have been spent on otherwise. What is the answer?

    3) Why would anyone not charge interest when they can make a greater return by doing so?

    4) If it works, why don't all states do it all the time and for ever and with ten times as much cash input?

    5) In my experience so far, if an action looks as if it is inflationary, it always is. What reason have I got to feel differently about this one?

    It is just a way of "justifying" a big round of infrastructure spending. We have become so obsessed with forecasts, targets and fiscal rules we can no longer say we could actually do with a bit of infrastructure spending.
    I think Keynes once said "anything we can do, we can afford".
    With our crumbling infrastructure and low growth we should actually be asking if we can afford not to invest.....
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,867

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Have the auditors not noticed that ?
    Quite. How can you sign off accounts without an up to date asset register?

    I can imagine there being some unused Victorian infrastructure that everyone had forgotten about but surely when the company was privatised there was a list of what it actually owned? Anything not on the list should presumably have been retained by the government (ownership/liabilities to be negotiated later)?

    At a different utility company I am vaguely familiar with the (GIS based) asset register was taken very seriously indeed.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,332

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,444
    Thank you for the article, @ProfessorIdea. I agree we need a major investment in infrastructure, to recover from the last 40 years of penny pinching. It also needs to be completely separated from the short term attitude of “will it help us win the next election, or will our opponents reap the benefit?”. Therefore, it needs to be independent of political interference. It will also be essential that the expenditure doesn’t disappear into the deep pockets of the planning and consultancy industry. If we can manage that, it will be a great boost to the country.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,361
    edited March 24

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    Why are you paying for their sewer pipe survey. At our holiday home the plans show a sewer pipe running under our backgarden. We noticed some minor subsidence in the ground about where the sewer pipe would likely to be. They came to investigate. Put cameras down it, etc, but none of it was at our expense.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,332
    kjh said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    Why are you paying for their sewer pipe survey. At our holiday home the plans show a sewer pipe running under our backgarden. We noticed some minor subsidence in the ground about where the sewer pipe would likely to be. They came to investigate. Put cameras down it, etc, but none of it was at our expense.
    I dunno, they told us to pay, we paid, and as far as I know they didn't even do the survey.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,444

    So National Grid reckon Heathrow did NOT need to shut down.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdjy4m0n1exo

    ...and the circular firing squad forms up.

    The enquiry report (if one ever happens) will be fun reading.
    As befits Europe’s busiest airport, it will be Europe’s largest report. The consultancy costs will exceed the the downtime cost of the shutdown.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,329
    kjh said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    Why are you paying for their sewer pipe survey. At our holiday home the plans show a sewer pipe running under our backgarden. We noticed some minor subsidence in the ground about where the sewer pipe would likely to be. They came to investigate. Put cameras down it, etc, but none of it was at our expense.
    Similar experience at our previous home.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    A complete set of plans never existed. The water systems of London accreted over the centuries and lots weren't carefully surveyed when created. Then moved officially or unofficially. Then paper records were lost or miscopied.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    They have been privatised for 36 years.
    Their asset register might be incomplete, but how can they not have one ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673

    Thank you for the article, @ProfessorIdea. I agree we need a major investment in infrastructure, to recover from the last 40 years of penny pinching. It also needs to be completely separated from the short term attitude of “will it help us win the next election, or will our opponents reap the benefit?”. Therefore, it needs to be independent of political interference. It will also be essential that the expenditure doesn’t disappear into the deep pockets of the planning and consultancy industry. If we can manage that, it will be a great boost to the country.

    £500 Billion of public money spent without politicians getting to fiddle with it?

    How will you achieve that? Is it desirable? If nothing else, that sounds like an end run round democracy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,474
    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,544
    edited March 24

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    I thinknyou are taking a 1950s idea of work and projecting it into 2025.

    Let me give you an example. I am a researcher. Most of my stuff is theoretical, but I do the odd empirical paper. My mode of working would be unrecognizable. Spend enormous time alone in front of a white board. Do naps and walk the dog, fiddle around in the garden mulling ideas over. Then time on long zoom converstions with coauthors followed by intense bursts of writing on my lap top in various public locations. All this leads up to submission. Put me in my office (where I do for meetings and work in the organization) my research pipeline would die. I couldn't have a single research idea there. My teaching is from September to January where I am in the auditorium.... the value I create is just not compatible with a factory or survellied office environment. So you could come across me in the middle of the day walking around with a far away look in my eye... that is me working 🤣🤣🤣
    That's also true of some kinds of IT development work - it's about problem solving. Lots of thinking time vs typing.
    And there was me thinking it was only lawyers who charged a thoudand pounds an hour for thinking time. :wink:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,332
    Nigelb said:

    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches

    Yeah I think we paid to do the search, found nothing there, dug a hole, found a sewage pipe, told them about the pipe, and then paid them again to come and look at it, which they didn't do.
    The whole thing is a racket but what do you expect? This is how much of the private sector operates in this country - extortion.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,051
    kinabalu said:

    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.

    Magic poppy plant? Though that might have unfortunate connotations..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,347
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Piastri's down to 3.4/3.9 on Betfair. Probably just going to lay enough that I'm not behind if he's other than 1st.

    I think he should be shorter. He might be the favourite.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,984
    kinabalu said:

    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.

    We have just become too frit. The markets won't mind us spending on good infrastructure. And they don't need it wrapped up in jargon to make it sound more complicated than infrastructure spending either.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,180
    edited March 24
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    Are you saying that if he'd read the words of Mr Tate that would make him a terrorist? I really don't understand your point. He could have watched any number of films ore read any number of books but unless he acted under instruction or in concert it would tell you nothing
    My starting point with Southport is that it was a terrorist attack against women and girls. Does acting alone prevent such an attack being classified as terrorism? From what I can tell, the man that perpetrated the mosque shooting in New Zealand acted alone. Do you consider that to NOT be terrorism?

    We later found out that it may have been the case that Rudakubana had wanted to shoot up his school/college but was prevented from doing so by his father. That may suggest he wanted to shoot people he knew but was prevented from doing so. However, we also know that he had picked out his target before he got in the taxi. He had found that dance class somewhere, most likely the internet.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. But on balance of probabilities, I think the Southport stabbings were an anti-women/girl terrorist attack.
    The use of the word 'terrorist' suggests the use of violence against civilians in persuit of a political aim which I would say doesn't fit. But as you say it's academic and would have made no difference. Strange how the language gets mangled and meanings get lost. It's like the use of ''survivor' for someone who has been sexually abused. It used to refer to incidents where others didn't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    edited March 24
    theProle said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Nationalisation might be the only answer. The only way the private sector will want to get involved is at such a low price that a profit is guaranteed for asset stripping. A period of government ownership while the basics are restored – an asset register; proper waste management rather than waiting for a storm and chucking it all in the river while limits are suspended; investment in new facilities. Account for the asset on the government's books so it does not look like the money has disappeared.
    Why do we need to nationalise a profitable business?
    Because if we don't, they'll just play the same game for the next couple of decades.

    It's a monopoly utility.
    If you can guarantee it will be adequately regulated in future, then fine.
    You'll also probably deserve the Nobel prize for economics.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,474
    Oh god, Tiger Woods is marrying into the Trump family. So so disappointed. I've only ever had three idols, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and him. Down to two now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    edited March 24

    Nigelb said:

    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches

    Yeah I think we paid to do the search, found nothing there, dug a hole, found a sewage pipe, told them about the pipe, and then paid them again to come and look at it, which they didn't do.
    The whole thing is a racket but what do you expect? This is how much of the private sector operates in this country - extortion.
    It's there in plain sight:
    "An official provider of the Law Society’s CON.."
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,752
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    Are you saying that if he'd read the words of Mr Tate that would make him a terrorist? I really don't understand your point. He could have watched any number of films ore read any number of books but unless he acted under instruction or in concert it would tell you nothing
    My starting point with Southport is that it was a terrorist attack against women and girls. Does acting alone prevent such an attack being classified as terrorism? From what I can tell, the man that perpetrated the mosque shooting in New Zealand acted alone. Do you consider that to NOT be terrorism?

    We later found out that it may have been the case that Rudakubana had wanted to shoot up his school/college but was prevented from doing so by his father. That may suggest he wanted to shoot people he knew but was prevented from doing so. However, we also know that he had picked out his target before he got in the taxi. He had found that dance class somewhere, most likely the internet.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. But on balance of probabilities, I think the Southport stabbings were an anti-women/girl terrorist attack.
    To delve into the distinctions of the metaphysics and mental intentions of someone who intends to kill a roomful of seven year old little girls is distasteful and degrading. To say that it is somehow worse if his motivation is terrorism (or whatever) is of course to say that in some way his actions are improved, and he should be let out earlier, if his motivation is merely that he likes doing it or because the local council doesn't fill potholes.

    The concept is utterly shameful and it is a path we should never have started down.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,329

    Nigelb said:

    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches

    Yeah I think we paid to do the search, found nothing there, dug a hole, found a sewage pipe, told them about the pipe, and then paid them again to come and look at it, which they didn't do.
    The whole thing is a racket but what do you expect? This is how much of the private sector operates in this country - extortion.
    I'd have quite a severe go at a company which charged me £700 to do something then didn't do it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,272
    Oh dear. What a pity. Nevermind...

    https://x.com/e_casalicchio/status/1904105476133879950
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,329
    algarkirk said:

    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    On another note, was anyone else on here aware of this piece of information:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07zyrjrkvro

    Rudakubana wiped much of his internet search history before the attack and it is not known whether he ever viewed material linked to Mr Tate.

    It makes the "it wasn't terrorism" claims even more bizarre.

    Are you saying that if he'd read the words of Mr Tate that would make him a terrorist? I really don't understand your point. He could have watched any number of films ore read any number of books but unless he acted under instruction or in concert it would tell you nothing
    My starting point with Southport is that it was a terrorist attack against women and girls. Does acting alone prevent such an attack being classified as terrorism? From what I can tell, the man that perpetrated the mosque shooting in New Zealand acted alone. Do you consider that to NOT be terrorism?

    We later found out that it may have been the case that Rudakubana had wanted to shoot up his school/college but was prevented from doing so by his father. That may suggest he wanted to shoot people he knew but was prevented from doing so. However, we also know that he had picked out his target before he got in the taxi. He had found that dance class somewhere, most likely the internet.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same. But on balance of probabilities, I think the Southport stabbings were an anti-women/girl terrorist attack.
    To delve into the distinctions of the metaphysics and mental intentions of someone who intends to kill a roomful of seven year old little girls is distasteful and degrading. To say that it is somehow worse if his motivation is terrorism (or whatever) is of course to say that in some way his actions are improved, and he should be let out earlier, if his motivation is merely that he likes doing it or because the local council doesn't fill potholes.

    The concept is utterly shameful and it is a path we should never have started down.
    Arguably he should never get out, but the guy who shot up the student camp in Norway will do at some point, won't he?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,428
    edited March 24

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    They DO have a fixed asset register, but it's not comprehensive.

    Many of the pipes which make up the overwhelming majority of their assets were put in when they were nationally or municipally owned and governments don't care much about little things like accounting records, or about maintaining them to decent standards.

    I had some professional involvement with the company three times in my career and they have a fairly accurate record of the assets put in or renewed since privatisation, but that's only a proportion of the total.

    Another one of its benefits.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,474

    kinabalu said:

    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.

    We have just become too frit. The markets won't mind us spending on good infrastructure. And they don't need it wrapped up in jargon to make it sound more complicated than infrastructure spending either.
    In which case borrow it. If we could print huge sums to invest without adverse consequences I think we'd have done it by now. So would others.

    There are no easy answers and this looks like another attempt at one.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,332

    Nigelb said:

    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches

    Yeah I think we paid to do the search, found nothing there, dug a hole, found a sewage pipe, told them about the pipe, and then paid them again to come and look at it, which they didn't do.
    The whole thing is a racket but what do you expect? This is how much of the private sector operates in this country - extortion.
    I'd have quite a severe go at a company which charged me £700 to do something then didn't do it.
    I think they claimed to have done it remotely. We never saw any evidence they'd done it.
    I've previously had Thames Water demanding I pay them a £20k water bill for the pub property next door so £700 seemed quite reasonable! They are total jokers.
  • ajbajb Posts: 152

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Many of the assets were built 150 years ago, under other peoples property. You'd hope that they would have a list of those acquired in the last 50 years or so, but that may not be the majority of the value.

    Unlike virtually any other business they don't have a practical need to track what they own: There's basically just a rule as to which pipes they own. If its a sewage pipe or rainwater pipe,the property owner is responsible up to the point where it joins with someone else's, otherwise it's theirs. If its a clean water pipe, it's the property owners responsibility up to the external stop.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,752

    Thank you for the article, @ProfessorIdea. I agree we need a major investment in infrastructure, to recover from the last 40 years of penny pinching. It also needs to be completely separated from the short term attitude of “will it help us win the next election, or will our opponents reap the benefit?”. Therefore, it needs to be independent of political interference. It will also be essential that the expenditure doesn’t disappear into the deep pockets of the planning and consultancy industry. If we can manage that, it will be a great boost to the country.

    £500 Billion of public money spent without politicians getting to fiddle with it?

    How will you achieve that? Is it desirable? If nothing else, that sounds like an end run round democracy.
    To decide where public money is spent is what politics is. Whoever does it is acting politically. Renaming it makes no difference. It is merely part of the endless search of the powerful to both have power and deny responsibility for anything that goes wrong.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,433

    kinabalu said:

    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.

    We have just become too frit. The markets won't mind us spending on good infrastructure. And they don't need it wrapped up in jargon to make it sound more complicated than infrastructure spending either.


    The problem is a combination of the Treasury where Green Book / Computer says No and the sheer amount of time it takes to get things done.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,570
    This looks very interesting indeed.
    A pro-drug of a compound found in sage and rosemary.

    diAcCA, a Pro-Drug for Carnosic Acid That Activates the Nrf2 Transcriptional Pathway, Shows Efficacy in the 5xFAD Transgenic Mouse Model of Alzheimer’s Disease

    https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/14/3/293
    The antioxidant/anti-inflammatory compound carnosic acid (CA) is a phenolic diterpene found in the herbs rosemary and sage. Upon activation, CA manifests electrophilic properties to stimulate the Nrf2 transcriptional pathway via reaction with Keap1. However, purified CA is readily oxidized and thus highly unstable. To develop CA as an Alzheimer’s disease (AD) therapeutic, we synthesized pro-drug derivatives, among which the di-acetylated form (diAcCA) showed excellent drug-like properties. diAcCA converted to CA in the stomach prior to absorption into the bloodstream, and exhibited improved stability and bioavailability as well as comparable pharmacokinetics (PK) and efficacy to CA. To test the efficacy of diAcCA in AD transgenic mice, 5xFAD mice (or littermate controls) received the drug for 3 months, followed by behavioral and immunohistochemical studies. Notably, in addition to amyloid plaques and tau tangles, a hallmark of human AD is synapse loss, a major correlate to cognitive decline. The 5xFAD animals receiving diAcCA displayed synaptic rescue on immunohistochemical analysis accompanied by improved learning and memory in the water maze test. Treatment with diAcCA reduced astrocytic and microglial inflammation, amyloid plaque formation, and phospho-tau neuritic aggregates. In toxicity studies, diAcCA was as safe or safer than CA, which is listed by the FDA as “generally regarded as safe”, indicating diAcCA is suitable for human clinical trials in AD.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,734
    Bird flu detected in sheep in England for the first time
    https://news.sky.com/story/bird-flu-detected-in-sheep-in-england-for-the-first-time-13334862

    Sometimes I doubt our whole disease-naming methodology.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,428
    edited March 24
    geoffw said:

    The header says "All these projects would spur GDP growth"
    No, they will all result in a one-off increase in output. Economic growth requires continuing increases in output. The POPPY fund would itself also have to grow continuously.
    Do one-off jumps in output spur further growth? There's no evidence of that. But a one-off shift in technology which opens up a range of new opportunities can do that. However that is not in any government's powers.

    That's all true of course but the main problem with the fund suggested is that the government is extraordinarily poor both at choosing which infrastructure projects to deliver, and in delivering them effectively.

    Government chooses politically sexy, economically illiterate rubbish like HS2, delivers it (or not) decades late and many times over budget, and then moves on to the next expensive disaster, while much more worthwhile schemes with much better cost-benefit ratios are ignored.

    Also in many cases it is government that is itself the barrier to infrastructure projects rather than lack of funding - the appalling planning system is the most obvious, but far from the only, example. The reason the new towns referred to in the header aren't being built is not that there isn't enough money to go around, it's because we have simply the worst planning system in the world.

    So if we want to build decent infrastructure in this country, prioritising economically beneficial projects (in transport, for example, mostly road-building in the south-east, which often return £6 or £7 in economic benefits for every £ invested, compared to 50p for HS2 under current cost estimates) and above all liberalising planning, would be much better than wasting hundreds of billions more on expensive white elephants.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,051
    kinabalu said:

    Oh god, Tiger Woods is marrying into the Trump family. So so disappointed. I've only ever had three idols, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and him. Down to two now.

    With pols etc that one doesn't like, an objectivity filter has to be applied ie they're probably not entirely awful. The Trumps are ALWAYS the horrible, cheap scumbags that you expect them to be.

    'On November 12, 2005, Vanessa married Donald Trump Jr. The wedding was held at the Mar-a-Lago club in Florida; the service was officiated by Trump Jr.'s aunt, Judge Maryanne Trump Barry. Trump Jr. had proposed to her with a US $100,000 ring (equivalent to $161,000 in 2024) that he had received as a gift from a jeweler in exchange for proposing to her in front of paparazzi outside of the jeweler's store at the Short Hills mall in New Jersey.'

    https://x.com/devahaz/status/1903983926965641594
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673
    MattW said:

    Meanwhile, I see Reeves has adopted the right wing term ‘tax and spend’ is looking to keep President Trump happy by excluding American tech companies from a tax on American tech companies (as warned on pb).

    UK mulls big tech tax changes to avoid US tariffs
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j0dgym8w1o

    This is inept - it's a pure protection racket. She's feeding sausages to an American Bully XL in the hope that it won't bite her after it has eaten the sausages. And the negotiation is starting from the USA's position, not ours.

    Where's the £900m of lost revenue going to be recovered from?

    What did Lord Mandelbrot advise? He had two stints as Business Secretary and 5 years as European Trade Commissioner, so has relevant background.

    It can't be said "we have an agreement with Mr Trump", because Mr Trump's history is to piss on every agreement he has ever made, unless there is a metaphorical gun to his head.
    You need to think like Trump.

    "No tariffs or we give 100 nuclear weapons to Ukraine. By lunchtime. Say anything and the weapons are on the way. Also, we planted one in an underwater grotto near Mar-a-Lago."
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,673

    Nigelb said:

    And of course they have a service which will give you information on the location of sewers and clean water pipes etc.
    Which they charge for.

    Welcome to Thames Water Property Searches
    An official provider of the Law Society’s CON29DW Drainage and Water Enquiry
    https://www.thameswater.co.uk/property-searches

    Yeah I think we paid to do the search, found nothing there, dug a hole, found a sewage pipe, told them about the pipe, and then paid them again to come and look at it, which they didn't do.
    The whole thing is a racket but what do you expect? This is how much of the private sector operates in this country - extortion.
    I'd have quite a severe go at a company which charged me £700 to do something then didn't do it.
    I think they claimed to have done it remotely. We never saw any evidence they'd done it.
    I've previously had Thames Water demanding I pay them a £20k water bill for the pub property next door so £700 seemed quite reasonable! They are total jokers.
    They probably have a register with - "@OnlyLivingBoy - mark. Can be extorted easily.", in it.

    Push back on the ludicrous shit like that, for the love of God.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,474

    kinabalu said:

    Oh god, Tiger Woods is marrying into the Trump family. So so disappointed. I've only ever had three idols, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and him. Down to two now.

    With pols etc that one doesn't like, an objectivity filter has to be applied ie they're probably not entirely awful. The Trumps are ALWAYS the horrible, cheap scumbags that you expect them to be.

    'On November 12, 2005, Vanessa married Donald Trump Jr. The wedding was held at the Mar-a-Lago club in Florida; the service was officiated by Trump Jr.'s aunt, Judge Maryanne Trump Barry. Trump Jr. had proposed to her with a US $100,000 ring (equivalent to $161,000 in 2024) that he had received as a gift from a jeweler in exchange for proposing to her in front of paparazzi outside of the jeweler's store at the Short Hills mall in New Jersey.'

    https://x.com/devahaz/status/1903983926965641594
    Yes, 100% ghastly bunch. No exceptions or mitigations.

    Tiger Tiger, turning shite.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,718

    You only have to walk around any British town centre mid-week to unearth how many people simply aren't working.

    I thinknyou are taking a 1950s idea of work and projecting it into 2025.

    Let me give you an example. I am a researcher. Most of my stuff is theoretical, but I do the odd empirical paper. My mode of working would be unrecognizable. Spend enormous time alone in front of a white board. Do naps and walk the dog, fiddle around in the garden mulling ideas over. Then time on long zoom converstions with coauthors followed by intense bursts of writing on my lap top in various public locations. All this leads up to submission. Put me in my office (where I do for meetings and work in the organization) my research pipeline would die. I couldn't have a single research idea there. My teaching is from September to January where I am in the auditorium.... the value I create is just not compatible with a factory or survellied office environment. So you could come across me in the middle of the day walking around with a far away look in my eye... that is me working 🤣🤣🤣
    That's also true of some kinds of IT development work - it's about problem solving. Lots of thinking time vs typing.
    Indeed. The Hollywood trope of IT developers banging away at a keyboard like some demonic typist is as idiotic at the one of mathematicians performing feats of mental arithmetic in a couple of seconds. Some of my most productive time tends to be while sitting on the toilet or walking in the walk, at which point I'll often realise that I'm taking the wrong approach to some issue and get it straight in my head what I should be doing.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,314
    edited March 24
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Oh god, Tiger Woods is marrying into the Trump family. So so disappointed. I've only ever had three idols, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and him. Down to two now.

    With pols etc that one doesn't like, an objectivity filter has to be applied ie they're probably not entirely awful. The Trumps are ALWAYS the horrible, cheap scumbags that you expect them to be.

    'On November 12, 2005, Vanessa married Donald Trump Jr. The wedding was held at the Mar-a-Lago club in Florida; the service was officiated by Trump Jr.'s aunt, Judge Maryanne Trump Barry. Trump Jr. had proposed to her with a US $100,000 ring (equivalent to $161,000 in 2024) that he had received as a gift from a jeweler in exchange for proposing to her in front of paparazzi outside of the jeweler's store at the Short Hills mall in New Jersey.'

    https://x.com/devahaz/status/1903983926965641594
    Yes, 100% ghastly bunch. No exceptions or mitigations.

    Tiger Tiger, turning shite.
    It’s not like Woods is some spiritual leader or deep thinker, he earned his living moving a ball from location A to location B.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,361
    edited March 24

    kjh said:

    How in the name of holy chuffing buggery do Thames Water not have a fixed asset register?

    Fresh doubt has been cast over the race to find a white knight buyer for Thames Water as it struggles to provide details of its labyrinthine network of pipes, sewage works and reservoirs.

    Thames Water has stepped up the hunt for new investors willing to pump in billions of pounds of emergency capital after the Court of Appeal approved a £3bn emergency debt bailout from its existing creditors.

    However, prospective suitors fear the search will be held up by the company’s failure to keep an accurate record of the mountain of assets that it has accumulated over the decades.

    Thames Water has just weeks to hammer out a deal or one of the country’s most vital utilities faces a prolonged hand-to-mouth existence in which lenders drip-feed the company enough money every month to pay its bills.

    “The board has to advance to the due diligence quickly but this makes that much harder. How do you put a value on the company if you don’t know what it owns?” a source close to the talks said.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/23/thames-water-rescue-deal-threatened-by-missing-assets/

    Anyone who has done any building work in London will be aware of this. When we built our kitchen extension we discovered a sewer pipe running under our garden that Thames Water was unaware of. We informed them and then they sent us a letter telling us the pipe had "come to their attention" and demanding £700 to survey it, which we paid although we never saw any sign of a survey happening... This year some builders on the other side of the road damaged the sewer pipe on that side, presumably because they had no idea it was there, and there's been a Thames Water tanker pumping sewage out for months, no doubt at massive cost.
    Someone told me that all their plans had been destroyed on privatization, which sounds believable.
    Why are you paying for their sewer pipe survey. At our holiday home the plans show a sewer pipe running under our backgarden. We noticed some minor subsidence in the ground about where the sewer pipe would likely to be. They came to investigate. Put cameras down it, etc, but none of it was at our expense.
    I dunno, they told us to pay, we paid, and as far as I know they didn't even do the survey.
    Can I send you an invoice please?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,984
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    An interesting and creative idea as you'd expect from somebody called Professor Idea. I certainly agree with most of those things that 'Poppy' would invest in. But it's essentially magic money tree, isn't it. Not sure we'd get away with it.

    We have just become too frit. The markets won't mind us spending on good infrastructure. And they don't need it wrapped up in jargon to make it sound more complicated than infrastructure spending either.
    In which case borrow it. If we could print huge sums to invest without adverse consequences I think we'd have done it by now. So would others.

    There are no easy answers and this looks like another attempt at one.
    Other countries do it.

    https://obr.uk/box/international-comparisons-of-government-investment/#:~:text=Across the whole period, the,30 countries in every year.

    We consistently cock it up, see HS2 or the endless Heathrow saga. We are short termists who can't see the woods fromt the trees unfortunately.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,775
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Oh god, Tiger Woods is marrying into the Trump family. So so disappointed. I've only ever had three idols, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards and him. Down to two now.

    With pols etc that one doesn't like, an objectivity filter has to be applied ie they're probably not entirely awful. The Trumps are ALWAYS the horrible, cheap scumbags that you expect them to be.

    'On November 12, 2005, Vanessa married Donald Trump Jr. The wedding was held at the Mar-a-Lago club in Florida; the service was officiated by Trump Jr.'s aunt, Judge Maryanne Trump Barry. Trump Jr. had proposed to her with a US $100,000 ring (equivalent to $161,000 in 2024) that he had received as a gift from a jeweler in exchange for proposing to her in front of paparazzi outside of the jeweler's store at the Short Hills mall in New Jersey.'

    https://x.com/devahaz/status/1903983926965641594
    Yes, 100% ghastly bunch. No exceptions or mitigations.

    Tiger Tiger, turning shite.
    Before Thickie Jnr. Vanessa was involved with the House of Saud. Woods must be right wrong 'un.
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