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The great Reform revolt? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,354
edited March 12 in General
The great Reform revolt? – politicalbetting.com

33% of Reform UK voters feel the party would be doing better if Nigel Farage was no longer leaderWould be doing better under different leader: 33% of Reform UK votersWould be doing worse under different leader: 34%Neither better nor worse: 25%yougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881
    First I believe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Hopefully unlike the revolting ReFukkers.
  • malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
  • Are Reform voters in polls in general more online and well informed or less?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Good morning Malc, hope you’re well.

    Are you enjoying Cheltenham ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,039
    Reform's message is that this things should be radically different and radically better to the way they are. (See the opposition to the Centrist Dad creed of "things could be a bit better but they're not that bad in the grand scheme of things.")

    Of course a lot of Reform voters will the next great leader. And in the same way that Farage out-righted the Conservatives, he is vulnerable to someone going further than him.

    The catch is that people able to tapdance on the line between strong right and outright fash without falling over are very rare. Thank goodness.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    Is this winner in the room with us now?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881
    edited March 12
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Good morning Malc, hope you’re well.

    Are you enjoying Cheltenham ?
    Morning Taz, I am very well, hope you are same. Using up my holidays so been busy painting fences, rooms etc. Had a reasonable first day, came out ahead just thanks to Myrestown. Will see what is on offer today.

    It is turning into an Irish racing meeting , some races Mullins has nearly all the runners, what has happened to British horses.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,293
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Piastri's signed a contract extension at McLaren. If the team can keep things cool between the two drivers they could be set fair for a long time.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/articles/cd92zyzy4e9o
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,235
    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Good morning Malc, hope you’re well.

    Are you enjoying Cheltenham ?
    Morning Taz, I am very well, hope you are same. Using up my holidays so been busy painting fences, rooms etc. Had a reasonable first day, came out ahead just thanks to Myrestown. Will see what is on offer today.

    It is turning into an Irish racing meeting , some races Mullins has nearly all the runners, what has happened to British horses.
    Yes we’re well too thanks Malc. Currently in Fuerteventura enjoying the start of retirement and just generally being stunned by the lunacy from the Whitehouse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,398
    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Bloody quitters.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992
    Its been theorised before that Farage is both a great strength and limiting factor for Reform, that he may have taken them as far as he can. He has also been in the public eye a very long time.

    I dont really see them having sufficient inherent appeal to push on further without him, especially asci can't see him doing it quietly or playing second fiddle. People have been talking about him as the next PM, and even if he personally does not think that likely, it shows a level of ambition for the party including him that I doubt he 'retires' from being top dog again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Good morning Malc, hope you’re well.

    Are you enjoying Cheltenham ?
    Morning Taz, I am very well, hope you are same. Using up my holidays so been busy painting fences, rooms etc. Had a reasonable first day, came out ahead just thanks to Myrestown. Will see what is on offer today.

    It is turning into an Irish racing meeting , some races Mullins has nearly all the runners, what has happened to British horses.
    Yes we’re well too thanks Malc. Currently in Fuerteventura enjoying the start of retirement and just generally being stunned by the lunacy from the Whitehouse.
    excellent, rough time for many if they have to retire at this point , been a big drop in funds. Hopefully you are not affected. Enjoy your holiday, be nice in the sun, though saying that we have had several nice days , warm if in sun.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    Lesser known Jesus Christ quote.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,496
    I remain convinced that this will blow over. The star attraction is Nigel Farage - like the pied piper he takes people with him whichever party he is a member of.

    Rupert Lowe is a political nobody. The lesson from history - repeatedly enacted - is that if Farage dumps you overboard you are done. Someone posted a long list of former Faragistas and not a single one of them is politically relevant now, if they're even politically active still.

    So it's Farage or nothing. Sadly.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 37
    Reform seem to have blown their chance. Not sure who will be the main beneficiaries. All to play for.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,300
    @nico67 FPT

    Russia isn’t going to accept the ceasefire

    They will either: (I) ignore the proposal - I’d say 60% probability - this includes just dismissing out of hand; (ii) say that it’s interesting but demand something impossible (eg Ukraine withdrawing from the front line) as a precondition - 30%; or (iii) say that’s it’s almost good enough and demand a further achievable concession that the US will then screw Ukraine to give

    They never accept the first offer
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,058
    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812

    @nico67 FPT

    Russia isn’t going to accept the ceasefire

    They will either: (I) ignore the proposal - I’d say 60% probability - this includes just dismissing out of hand; (ii) say that it’s interesting but demand something impossible (eg Ukraine withdrawing from the front line) as a precondition - 30%; or (iii) say that’s it’s almost good enough and demand a further achievable concession that the US will then screw Ukraine to give

    They never accept the first offer

    iv) They accept the ceasefire, accuse Ukraine of breaching it and demand American help in 'punishing' Ukraine?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992

    I remain convinced that this will blow over. The star attraction is Nigel Farage - like the pied piper he takes people with him whichever party he is a member of.

    Rupert Lowe is a political nobody. The lesson from history - repeatedly enacted - is that if Farage dumps you overboard you are done. Someone posted a long list of former Faragistas and not a single one of them is politically relevant now, if they're even politically active still.

    So it's Farage or nothing. Sadly.

    Probably, but this occasion does feel slightly different. Perhaps because Lowe immediately fought back hard (though tbf he fired the first public shots), and the extreme online elements are more vocal.

    Despite their breakthrough at the GE mostly off the back of online campaigning and nota feeling i get the impression Farage and his team are more old school in inclination, they might promote reform as a radical force, but their vision is just a normal party where you do as the leader says.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,300
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    The fact this drivel got two likes is really a testament to how weak some posters are.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,235
    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721
    edited March 12
    So the US tariffs on steel and aluminium with both us and the EU have come into effect. The EU has immediately responded with counter tariffs. What are we doing? Not seen any announcement by the UK government.

    Of course, imposing tariffs on raw materials simply makes manufacturing in the US more expensive, reducing their competitiveness and, at the margins, reducing economic production in the US. Surely pretty much everybody knows this?

    Edit, apparently "all options are on the table" whatever the hell that means:https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-disappointed-at-us-tariffs-business-secretary-says/ar-AA1AK7uY?ocid=BingNewsSerp
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,300
    ydoethur said:

    @nico67 FPT

    Russia isn’t going to accept the ceasefire

    They will either: (I) ignore the proposal - I’d say 60% probability - this includes just dismissing out of hand; (ii) say that it’s interesting but demand something impossible (eg Ukraine withdrawing from the front line) as a precondition - 30%; or (iii) say that’s it’s almost good enough and demand a further achievable concession that the US will then screw Ukraine to give

    They never accept the first offer

    iv) They accept the ceasefire, accuse Ukraine of breaching it and demand American help in 'punishing' Ukraine?
    I was working on the basis of good faith… always risky where Putin’s Russia is concerned…
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992

    @nico67 FPT

    Russia isn’t going to accept the ceasefire

    They will either: (I) ignore the proposal - I’d say 60% probability - this includes just dismissing out of hand; (ii) say that it’s interesting but demand something impossible (eg Ukraine withdrawing from the front line) as a precondition - 30%; or (iii) say that’s it’s almost good enough and demand a further achievable concession that the US will then screw Ukraine to give

    They never accept the first offer

    Seems likely. Im sure a ceasefire will happen, but they've been inching forwards so will want more than just what they currently hold.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
    We still produce steel?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    Do we produce any steel or aluminium now? Genuine question.

    At least, in any plant that's not scheduled to close in the next two years.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Good morning Malc, hope you’re well.

    Are you enjoying Cheltenham ?
    Morning Taz, I am very well, hope you are same. Using up my holidays so been busy painting fences, rooms etc. Had a reasonable first day, came out ahead just thanks to Myrestown. Will see what is on offer today.

    It is turning into an Irish racing meeting , some races Mullins has nearly all the runners, what has happened to British horses.
    Yes we’re well too thanks Malc. Currently in Fuerteventura enjoying the start of retirement and just generally being stunned by the lunacy from the Whitehouse.
    excellent, rough time for many if they have to retire at this point , been a big drop in funds. Hopefully you are not affected. Enjoy your holiday, be nice in the sun, though saying that we have had several nice days , warm if in sun.
    Yeah, there has been a hit but I do not need to touch any of those funds for at least 18 months so plenty of time to rebound. When I got rejected for voluntary redundancy in 2023 I just started saving every spare bit of cash I had to allow retirement. I also have a couple of DB pensions, one I am taking and one I am about to take.

    Life is too short and precious, a guy I used to work with told me at my leaving drink his son had a stroke, life altering, and the poor lad is only 19. He’s a lovely bloke too. You never know what is around the corner.

    The weather here is lush. Lovely and sunny. We left Newcastle on Sunday morning shrouded in fog !
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992
    edited March 12
    scampi25 said:

    Reform seem to have blown their chance. Not sure who will be the main beneficiaries.

    Not the turnout figures.

    Though for low turnout elections like the locals a Reform civil war may mean candidates who were being lined up don't get submitted or split benefiting the Tories most given where elections are tgis year.

    Add in the areas already delayed and what was looking like a great locals cycle for them could be a damp squib.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
    Now that’s a sensible question.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,801
    edited March 12
    Which party wouldn't have 33% of its members or voters preferring another leader?

    The LibDems, currently, perhaps
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,962
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
    Now that’s a sensible question.
    About 5% of UK production, they said on the radio this morning. They might be more specialist steels though (and so be more by value).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    21 out of 315- odd.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,290
    edited March 12
    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    How did that go for the Tories when they got rid of the One Nation Tories?

    Edited original post when I realised I misread your post.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,813
    Trumps already agreed the ceasefire with Putin . He wouldn’t have put a proposal forward that Putin didn’t like .

    This whole performance that Russia hasn’t agreed yet and the US will pressure them is a load of tripe .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992
    edited March 12
    IanB2 said:

    Which party wouldn't have 33% of its members or voters preferring another leader?

    The LibDems, currently, perhaps

    Davey should consider it even so though. He took them to what is probably a high point in seats even if they can boost their vote share, hes a party elder and can step back giving his successor a great legacy and keep credit for 2024 even if they go backwards next time.

    Not that he's done poorly, not at all, its just probably as far as they can reach MP wise.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,119

    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
    Provisional Independent Reform Alliance. Provo IRA.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,291

    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
    People's Front of Judea?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,992
    edited March 12
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    21 out of 315- odd.
    And criticised though it was, it worked.

    People can argue over long term effects but the immediate aims seem to have been achieved.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721
    nico67 said:

    Trumps already agreed the ceasefire with Putin . He wouldn’t have put a proposal forward that Putin didn’t like .

    This whole performance that Russia hasn’t agreed yet and the US will pressure them is a load of tripe .

    Doesn't mean that Russia won't want to extract some more concessions from the worst negotiator on the planet. The art of the deal? He really doesn't have the faintest idea.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,915

    I remain convinced that this will blow over. The star attraction is Nigel Farage - like the pied piper he takes people with him whichever party he is a member of.

    Rupert Lowe is a political nobody. The lesson from history - repeatedly enacted - is that if Farage dumps you overboard you are done. Someone posted a long list of former Faragistas and not a single one of them is politically relevant now, if they're even politically active still.

    So it's Farage or nothing. Sadly.

    How many times will Farage be on Question Time in the next 10 years? 184
    How many times will Lowe be on Question Time in the next 10 years? 3
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,636
    nico67 said:

    Trumps already agreed the ceasefire with Putin . He wouldn’t have put a proposal forward that Putin didn’t like .

    This whole performance that Russia hasn’t agreed yet and the US will pressure them is a load of tripe .

    Three weeks ceasefire, allowing him to regroup and reequip his front line? What's not to like?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812

    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
    Provisional Independent Reform Alliance. Provo IRA.
    An explosive suggestion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721
    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    The fear is that the Europeans and the Japanese will focus more on our market to find an alternative to the US one without tariffs. The proportion of steel and aluminium imported has already been increasing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,915
    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    Are we even sure the tariffs are actually on aluminium and not just aloominum?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110
    A plurality of Reform voters though still think Reform would be doing worse under a different leader.

    Given Lowe's previous support for Tommy Robinson it is more likely he forms a separate party with Habib than joins the Tories
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 533
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    They're just following the advice of @rcs1000
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    How did that go for the Tories when they got rid of the One Nation Tories?

    Edited original post when I realised I misread your post.

    They won 47 additional seats at the election later that year and every one of those who had had the whip withdrawn lost their seats. So pretty well in the short term.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,747
    Sky

    Master of the Solong ship is a Russian national with Russian Philippines crew
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 533

    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
    People's Front of Judea?
    Is that their playbook?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110
    edited March 12
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    The fear is that the Europeans and the Japanese will focus more on our market to find an alternative to the US one without tariffs. The proportion of steel and aluminium imported has already been increasing.
    If they do post Brexit we could respond with our own tariffs on EU steel now the EU and US have both responsed with tariffs after Trump added steel, including from the EU, to his latest batch of US tariffs.

    Though if we expanded aluminium exports to the EU and Japan at about an equal rate to aluminium and steel imports that would not be a problem and no UK tariffs would be needed
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    The fact this drivel got two likes is really a testament to how weak some posters are.
    Some day it may click and you will see the light.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,639

    @nico67 FPT

    Russia isn’t going to accept the ceasefire

    They will either: (I) ignore the proposal - I’d say 60% probability - this includes just dismissing out of hand; (ii) say that it’s interesting but demand something impossible (eg Ukraine withdrawing from the front line) as a precondition - 30%; or (iii) say that’s it’s almost good enough and demand a further achievable concession that the US will then screw Ukraine to give

    They never accept the first offer

    SFAICS this is part of the high stakes poker being worked out by the non-USA west. The best hope for now is a Trump of the most temperate possible variety - the sort that is deranged and extreme but doesn't invade Canada or go to war alongside Russia, and start WWIII. This involves giving chances to USA actors, Rubio and co to point in that direction.

    At this moment there is a small success: the west agrees that the ball is in Russia's court, and whatever Russia decides presents the next opportunity for America to behave to some degree in accord with the rest of the west. One to watch with limited but not zero hope.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    21 out of 315- odd.
    Thanks, so actually less than 10%, as JNT said famously, the memory cheats. I knew it wasn’t as high as 20% but could have swore it was more than that as a percentage.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,813

    Sky

    Master of the Solong ship is a Russian national with Russian Philippines crew

    Could be just one of those bizarre coincidences. Would he really try to crash into an American registered vessel given the USA is now friendly with Russia .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    The fear is that the Europeans and the Japanese will focus more on our market to find an alternative to the US one without tariffs. The proportion of steel and aluminium imported has already been increasing.
    If they do post Brexit we could respond with our own tariffs on EU steel now the EU and US have both responsed with tariffs after Trump added steel, including from the EU, to his latest batch of US tariffs.

    Though if we expanded aluminium exports to the EU at about an equal rate to aluminium and steel imports that would not be a problem
    We could but tariffs are less than a zero sum game. Everyone loses. We've known this since the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act in the early 1930s.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,710
    edited March 12
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
    Now that’s a sensible question.
    I think we produce quite a lot of steel in the UK - something like the equivalent of 70% of our total demand. Most of it is recycled.

    A bit like oil though, that masks the fact we export much of our own production, and import lots as well. For example, very little UK steel is used in our offshore wind turbines.

    I guess the impact of tariffs depends not so much on volume but on the value of the steel we are exporting.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,877
    HYUFD said:

    A plurality of Reform voters though still think Reform would be doing worse under a different leader.

    Given Lowe's previous support for Tommy Robinson it is more likely he forms a separate party with Habib than joins the Tories

    Peoples Front of Judaea stuff.

    I know some here think all Reform supporters are racist, Britain First, sorts but Robinson is absolutely toxic and reviled, rightly, by most people.

    There’s no votes to be gained by supporting him.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,915

    Ratters said:

    The People's Reform Britain party is the only true alternative to the Tories and Labour. Reform UK are just Tory-lite...

    No, no - The Common Sense Reformation of England party are the only true representation of the people's will. The People's Reform Britain party are just Reform-lite...

    Real Reform?
    Continuity Reform?
    Really Real Reform?
    Keepin’ it Real Reform?
    Make England Great Again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    How much steel do we actually produce and sell to the US…
    radio this morning said 400 million pounds worth a year
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Ratters said:

    In all seriousness, the fact that Reform can't agree on a policy platform whilst they had 5 MPs in opposition, presumably some the most capable candidates they fielded nationally, does not bode well for their chances of forming a coherent government or even united main opposition party.

    Do they think every Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MP agrees with their respective leadership position on everything? Of course not. But none of them have lost 20% of their MPs in under a year.

    In fact, the problem they have is structural. Farage is about the least right wing and MAGA-friendly you can be while having clear blue water versus the Tories. He will naturally end up with lots of MPs to his right.

    Which is perhaps a good line of attack against Reform. Vote Farage, get Tommy Robinson supporters. He loses control of MPs once elected.

    It wasn’t 20% but how many did Boris lose when he pulled the whip from the likes of Gauke and Hammond in 2019 ?
    21 out of 315- odd.
    Thanks, so actually less than 10%, as JNT said famously, the memory cheats. I knew it wasn’t as high as 20% but could have swore it was more than that as a percentage.
    There were multiple defections at around the same time, which may be why you thought it was more.

    I may also be wrong about the 315 as a result - it's difficult to remember who left, when and why given the chaos in the party at the time.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,391
    nico67 said:

    Sky

    Master of the Solong ship is a Russian national with Russian Philippines crew

    Could be just one of those bizarre coincidences. Would he really try to crash into an American registered vessel given the USA is now friendly with Russia .
    Depends when his orders were given to him - it’s hard to silently communicate with people out at sea
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,747
    nico67 said:

    Sky

    Master of the Solong ship is a Russian national with Russian Philippines crew

    Could be just one of those bizarre coincidences. Would he really try to crash into an American registered vessel given the USA is now friendly with Russia .
    And in the North Sea ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,496
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    The fear is that the Europeans and the Japanese will focus more on our market to find an alternative to the US one without tariffs. The proportion of steel and aluminium imported has already been increasing.
    If they do post Brexit we could respond with our own tariffs on EU steel now the EU and US have both responsed with tariffs after Trump added steel, including from the EU, to his latest batch of US tariffs.

    Though if we expanded aluminium exports to the EU at about an equal rate to aluminium and steel imports that would not be a problem
    We could but tariffs are less than a zero sum game. Everyone loses. We've known this since the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act in the early 1930s.
    The one thing we know about Trump is that he changes his mind 17 times a day. I have to assume that we haven't reciprocated tariffs because they're working on getting us exempted.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,998
    edited March 12
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,721

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    If the bully in the playground hits you and you do nothing the chances of him hitting you again are pretty high. He's somewhat unlikely to think better of you. And this is the level of mentality that we are dealing with.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    If the bully in the playground hits you and you do nothing the chances of him hitting you again are pretty high. He's somewhat unlikely to think better of you. And this is the level of mentality that we are dealing with.
    We still need to get him over for the state visit.

    And then introduce him as the new ambassador from Greenland.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,747
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    The fact this drivel got two likes is really a testament to how weak some posters are.
    Some day it may click and you will see the light.
    I don't know why he has this habit of rudeness to other posters if he doesn't agree with them or like them

    Strange
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,132
    nico67 said:

    Sky

    Master of the Solong ship is a Russian national with Russian Philippines crew

    Could be just one of those bizarre coincidences. Would he really try to crash into an American registered vessel given the USA is now friendly with Russia .
    Well, during the Russo-Japanese War, the Russians did shoot at and kill British fishermen in the North Sea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,998
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    If the bully in the playground hits you and you do nothing the chances of him hitting you again are pretty high. He's somewhat unlikely to think better of you. And this is the level of mentality that we are dealing with.

    But you do not hit back at a bully in a way that he will not notice and will only hurt you. That's the position we find ourselves in unfortunately.

    The EU and China can hit back at US tariffs because they are big enough. The Mexicans and Canadians can do it because they are close enough. We are neither.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    Depends if we produced more of our own steel in response for our own market, Trump's aim with his tariffs is to rebuild US industry after all
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    A plurality of Reform voters though still think Reform would be doing worse under a different leader.

    Given Lowe's previous support for Tommy Robinson it is more likely he forms a separate party with Habib than joins the Tories

    Peoples Front of Judaea stuff.

    I know some here think all Reform supporters are racist, Britain First, sorts but Robinson is absolutely toxic and reviled, rightly, by most people.

    There’s no votes to be gained by supporting him.
    No more than 10-15% or so anyway, to win most seats Reform need far more than that
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,164
    edited March 12

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    News to me that we export any steel, though I guess we must do some, and some aluminium? I think anyone in the US who imports their metals from the UK with our energy costs probably needs their head examined, but there we go.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,392
    edited March 12
    Reform voters are the real iconoclasts. They even want to kick their own leaders up the arsenal.

    I'm not sure that the hyper online Reform activists are really representative of the disgruntled and disengaged NOTA Reform voters.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,946
    nico67 said:

    Trumps already agreed the ceasefire with Putin . He wouldn’t have put a proposal forward that Putin didn’t like .

    This whole performance that Russia hasn’t agreed yet and the US will pressure them is a load of tripe .

    Certainly the sort of tripe that would indicate it's set up for Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize.
    But I'm sure he's not interested in that sort of thing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110
    Brooks Newmark moving to Ukraine to scale up his charity work

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyr58jg51no
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,999
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    It's the economically correct decision to take.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,284
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Which party wouldn't have 33% of its members or voters preferring another leader?

    The LibDems, currently, perhaps

    Davey should consider it even so though. He took them to what is probably a high point in seats even if they can boost their vote share, hes a party elder and can step back giving his successor a great legacy and keep credit for 2024 even if they go backwards next time.

    Not that he's done poorly, not at all, its just probably as far as they can reach MP wise.
    I think the Lib Dem leadership are planning well ahead. Ed certainly is. I think there could be some very interesting surprises in May.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    OK, so there is one aluminium smelter in the U.K. - the Lochaber plant in Fort William. Which has been struggling for ages from all I hear.

    I don't think that part will affect us overmuch either way. If anything it might help if Europe try to source aluminium from the U.K. not the US.

    The fear is that the Europeans and the Japanese will focus more on our market to find an alternative to the US one without tariffs. The proportion of steel and aluminium imported has already been increasing.
    If they do post Brexit we could respond with our own tariffs on EU steel now the EU and US have both responsed with tariffs after Trump added steel, including from the EU, to his latest batch of US tariffs.

    Though if we expanded aluminium exports to the EU at about an equal rate to aluminium and steel imports that would not be a problem
    We could but tariffs are less than a zero sum game. Everyone loses. We've known this since the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act in the early 1930s.
    The one thing we know about Trump is that he changes his mind 17 times a day. I have to assume that we haven't reciprocated tariffs because they're working on getting us exempted.
    How much butt licking will these craven cowards perform
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,392
    edited March 12

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    News to me that we export any steel, though I guess we must do some, and some aluminium? I think anyone in the US who imports their metals from the UK with our energy costs probably needs their head examined, but there we go.
    I think it's mostly specialised engineering steels rather than crude rebar etc.

    Used in some US military applications I believe.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Which party wouldn't have 33% of its members or voters preferring another leader?

    The LibDems, currently, perhaps

    Davey should consider it even so though. He took them to what is probably a high point in seats even if they can boost their vote share, hes a party elder and can step back giving his successor a great legacy and keep credit for 2024 even if they go backwards next time.

    Not that he's done poorly, not at all, its just probably as far as they can reach MP wise.
    I think the Lib Dem leadership are planning well ahead. Ed certainly is. I think there could be some very interesting surprises in May.
    He's going to go paddle boarding in Loch Ness?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,132
    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    "Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are!"
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,881

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    The fact this drivel got two likes is really a testament to how weak some posters are.
    Some day it may click and you will see the light.
    I don't know why he has this habit of rudeness to other posters if he doesn't agree with them or like them

    Strange
    Indeed
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    Actually, I have the perfect idea for humiliating Trump:

    When he arrives, the state banquet is button mushrooms on toast.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,391
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    News to me that we export any steel, though I guess we must do some, and some aluminium? I think anyone in the US who imports their metals from the UK with our energy costs probably needs their head examined, but there we go.
    I think it's mostly specialised engineering steels rather than crude rebar etc.

    Used in some US military applications I believe.
    Yep - I would think the only thing we export to the states will be from Sheffield Forgemasters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First I believe

    Unfortunately.
    Learn from a winner, you don't have to be a loser all your life.
    The fact this drivel got two likes is really a testament to how weak some posters are.
    Some day it may click and you will see the light.
    I don't know why he has this habit of rudeness to other posters if he doesn't agree with them or like them

    Strange
    Indeed
    Dear me, Malc, don't tell me you've run out of turnips.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,710
    edited March 12

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    News to me that we export any steel, though I guess we must do some, and some aluminium? I think anyone in the US who imports their metals from the UK with our energy costs probably needs their head examined, but there we go.
    Of course we do. 3.3 million tonnes in 2022, compared with 5.3 million tonnes imported.

    There is always this assumption that the UK is useless at everything. But UK manufacturing is actually quite strong, and I would guess our steel products are more likely to be higher value stuff like stainless steel, components etc. Going forward, there might even be a synergy between excess electricity generation from renewables and steel/aluminium production in the UK.

    In terms of the trade war, most of our imports come from Turkey and the EU. China and the US hardly feature.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,110
    Greenland opposition wins on a platform of a more gradual approach to any independence moves from Denmark

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2r3d0r8z0o
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,946
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @DPJHodges

    This morning the US imposed tariffs on European and British steel and aluminium imports. The EU has responded with its own tariffs. The British government has said it's "disappointed". And done nothing.

    There is nothing we could do that would change US minds. We are not important enough. All imposing tariffs on US goods would do is push up prices for UK consumers. There is a reason why our post-Brexit trade deals have tended to benefit the other party more than us.

    If the bully in the playground hits you and you do nothing the chances of him hitting you again are pretty high. He's somewhat unlikely to think better of you. And this is the level of mentality that we are dealing with.
    A handy visual metaphor.

    https://x.com/LeftySeparatist/status/1899745678953271425
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,279
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I have the perfect idea for humiliating Trump:

    When he arrives, the state banquet is button mushrooms on toast.

    Charles could wear baseball cap and trackies.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,392
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Which party wouldn't have 33% of its members or voters preferring another leader?

    The LibDems, currently, perhaps

    Davey should consider it even so though. He took them to what is probably a high point in seats even if they can boost their vote share, hes a party elder and can step back giving his successor a great legacy and keep credit for 2024 even if they go backwards next time.

    Not that he's done poorly, not at all, its just probably as far as they can reach MP wise.
    I don't think so. Davey enjoys his 2 questions each week and fancies another "Fun Dad" election campaign.

    Kemi is surely the value bet. Nobody likes her, even the only Tory in the PB village is shifting to Jenrickism.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,812
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I have the perfect idea for humiliating Trump:

    When he arrives, the state banquet is button mushrooms on toast.

    Charles could wear baseball cap and trackies.
    And as an experienced gardener and hedger, bring a real chainsaw.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,999
    Kellogg out of the negotiations apparently, not sure how MAGA he is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,392
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I have the perfect idea for humiliating Trump:

    When he arrives, the state banquet is button mushrooms on toast.

    It's hard to embarrass someone who eats Big Macs most days.

    Perhaps vegan Tofu sandwiches?
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