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How Reform can win the General Election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,327
edited 7:15AM in General
How Reform can win the General Election – politicalbetting.com

So we are told. We can list multiple events which were politically impossible which then happened anyway. In today’s politics, the impossible is the future possible.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • edited 7:23AM
    First, unlike Reform.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,831
    Second rate like this early train to Leeds
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,048
    Good header.

    The truth is that most voters want a plan to improve things. They want that *delivered*.

    Telling them that nothing can be done, in 27 years, is simply a pitch for Reform.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,388
    Thanks for thread @RochdalePioneers - just on 2005 and "are you thinking what we're thinking?", the Tories came first in England in that election:

    2001 (votes/seats)

    Lab: 9.06 million (323)
    Con: 7.71 million (165)
    LD: 4.25 million (40)


    2005:

    Lab: 8.05 million (286)
    Con: 8.12 million (194)
    LD: 5.20 million (47)

    I'm a fan of first past the post, but Labour managing a comfortable majority on that share of the vote was far more problematic than what happened last year. 2005 really ought to have produced a Lab-LD coalition.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,824
    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,959
    Is this the parallel universe PB?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,318
    edited 7:39AM
    That pitch would certainly appeal to the Walmington-on-Sea Home Guard, or Foggy, Compo and Clegg. As long as they don't read the manifesto, and see the black hole therein.

    How will it play where there are other local populists chasing after the voters?

    (Ask me on May 2nd.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273
    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,144
    All true up to a point. But Farage also wants to privatise the NHS, which voters aren't keen on, and is a fully signed up member of the Trump-Putin axis of anti-Western interests. He has plenty of weaknesses to exploit, and will receive a lot more scrutiny in the next election than he is used to.
  • CJohnCJohn Posts: 63
    Surely you have forgotten, "Uncontrolled immigration has stolen your appointment at the GP, overcrowded your roads etc etc"

    Is this not Reform's main SP?

  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,318
    edited 7:55AM
    Following yesterday's conversation re: timber frame etc, I'll pivot my photo quotas for a bit to Self-Build photos from Build Hub.

    This is one posted yesterday by a couple building a retirement bungalow on the site of a former cowshed in the grounds of their barn conversion, in Cornwall.

    It has taken 6 months to get to this - slates and solar panels - stage. Their business is restoring Jensen Interceptors, and there are piccies on some of the posts. They restored one, liked it, and then did a Jensen FF.

    They were in Manchester, attended a Jensen Owners Club rally, liked Cornwall, and moved 6 years ago.

    Blog: The Old Cow Shed. They have full costings in it. £180k so far.
    https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/blogs/blog/73-the-old-cow-shed/

    Their interceptor:
    https://www.oilyragclassics.co.uk/projects-gallery/jensen-interceptor-mkiii/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,735
    edited 7:51AM
    The main reason they are a threat is not the above but that they will have the most friendly media.

    Twitter and GB news will be actively 100% behind. Facebook may follow but will at least be friendly.
    Would expect at least one of Express or Mail to be actively supporting.
    Telegraph won't quite get there but will run the kind of stories that encourage switchers to Reform from both Labour and Tory.

    No media will be passionately supporting Labour or Conservatives even if they get some traditional lukewarm best of a bad bunch type "support".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    Who do you think funds WHO?

    The majority of our aid budget is via international organisations like WHO, only a quarter is direct aid from the UK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    .

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    Of course we do.
    Until recently we weee on course to eradicate several diseases, as we did with smallpox.
    That's gone backwards, and will now accelerate in reverse.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,058

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,132
    Nigelb said:

    .

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    Of course we do.
    Until recently we weee on course to eradicate several diseases, as we did with smallpox.
    That's gone backwards, and will now accelerate in reverse.
    Indeed. And I, for one, will be eternally grateful that the west funded coronavirus research labs in Wuhan so that we were well placed to deal with the emergence of a novel coronavirus over there! :innocent:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    Of course we do.
    Until recently we weee on course to eradicate several diseases, as we did with smallpox.
    That's gone backwards, and will now accelerate in reverse.
    Indeed. And I, for one, will be eternally grateful that the west funded coronavirus research labs in Wuhan so that we were well placed to deal with the emergence of a novel coronavirus over there! :innocent:
    That wasn't aid money though, and not British money either.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,026
    I’ve seen enough.

    Sir Lewis Hamilton to win the F1 title this year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures

    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    Perhaps.
    But neither the Tories nor Labour can run 'time for a change' campaigns, and Reform can.

    The Greens may well pick up votes at Labour's expense, but they have probably even less economic credibility than Reform, and lack the atavistic appeal. As the polling suggests.
    They can use the same tactic, but they're not anywhere near vying for the lead in the polls.

    In any event, I think Farage's explicit emulation of, and romance with the US right will kill his chances

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,213
    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures

    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    Perhaps.
    But neither the Tories nor Labour can run 'time for a change' campaigns, and Reform can.

    The Greens may well pick up votes at Labour's expense, but they have probably even less economic credibility than Reform, and lack the atavistic appeal. As the polling suggests.
    They can use the same tactic, but they're not anywhere near vying for the lead in the polls.

    In any event, I think Farage's explicit emulation of, and romance with the US right will kill his chances

    An SNP version:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted by Westminster
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, in Scotland and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect an SNP government and we’ll cut the waste and the fraud which We All Know is there. Make Scotland a land fit for Our Children’s Futures
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,026

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,144
    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    People talk about the need for tough fiscal choices, but cutting the aid budget is the very opposite of that. Indeed, in between the wealthy saying we must cut welfare, and the less well off saying the rich must pay, it seems our ability to make actual sacrifices that affect us personally is pretty limited. Maybe Putin is right about the decadent West. We certainly won't defend ourselves with this kind of pathetic attitude.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    We've seen this morning how it works, and why it exists; it's so a certain type of Briton can feel morally superior about themselves, especially if they can do so by reference to others.

    That shouldn't be how government and public policy works.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,676

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Do that and Labour will be lucky to poll over 20% . I just don’t see any party touching the triple lock unless they want to get hammered at the polls .
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,352
    edited 8:17AM
    An interesting thread.

    One thing I'd disagree with though is the five pledges idea. I don't think it particularly worked for Blair - it was the dismal unpopularity of the Conservatives that did it for him. The five pledges were pretty anodyne and uninspiring - I don't think he won because of them or even gained many if any votes.

    Also Reform aspires to engage the politically unengaged. in today's world, with its 140-character attention spans, the unengaged, even if they can read, can't be bothered with anything as complicated as five pledges.

    So I think a better idea for Reform would be to have an even simpler campaign with a short, catchy slogan that can be repeated endlessly. Just one point, over and over again, which really catches the public mood. Mainly short, memorable Anglo-Saxon words. 5 words maximum. We all know the type of slogan. Get Brexit done. Peace, bread, land. Get Starmer out. Keep England white. Make America great again. Save the NHS. No nukes on UK soil. Guinness is good for you. Etc. etc.

    Sadly, in today's world, one such slogan is worth a dozen pledge cards or a thousand well-thought-through and convincing policies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,568
    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    If no (major) party really disagrees on a pronouncement it should be pretty worthless as a selling point. Unless others are so unpopular or you so popular that only you are believed.

    Though a focus on things no one really disagrees with would be interesting for any parties trying to complain the others are all the same but they are unique.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    We've seen this morning how it works, and why it exists; it's so a certain type of Briton can feel morally superior about themselves, especially if they can do so by reference to others.

    That shouldn't be how government and public policy works.
    That though is precisely my point.
    You're trying to feel morally better by convincing yourself all aid spending is useless.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273
    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    Half of the aid budget is international subscriptions like the WHO.
    A quarter is on housing asylum seekers in the UK.
    A quarter is on Direct aid from the UK, half of it to Africa.

    We could withdraw from WHO and similar, and have a blanket amnesty for all asylum seekers, including prospectively.

    That is the way to make the sums add up if we want to cut £13 billion from the aid budget and spend it on defence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,568

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Put like that and the political calculation of which will be more unpopular is obvious.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,413
    Pledge card, you say?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    edited 8:17AM
    Nigelb said:

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    We've seen this morning how it works, and why it exists; it's so a certain type of Briton can feel morally superior about themselves, especially if they can do so by reference to others.

    That shouldn't be how government and public policy works.
    That though is precisely my point.
    You're trying to feel morally better by convincing yourself all aid spending is useless.
    Not at all. That's what its defenders are doing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    Half of the aid budget is international subscriptions like the WHO.
    A quarter is on housing asylum seekers in the UK.
    A quarter is on Direct aid from the UK, half of it to Africa.

    We could withdraw from WHO and similar, and have a blanket amnesty for all asylum seekers, including prospectively.

    That is the way to make the sums add up if we want to cut £13 billion from the aid budget and spend it on defence.
    Our contributions to the WHO barely scrap £300 million, which is just over 2% of it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    nico67 said:

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Do that and Labour will be lucky to poll over 20% . I just don’t see any party touching the triple lock unless they want to get hammered at the polls .
    They should have done it along with this announcement. Should if later become unavoidable, it will damage them far more.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    All public policy choices can be reduced down to casualties, if one so chooses.

    I've seen that done for the WFA and disability welfare as well, and even the Triple Lock on the grounds it will push some into poverty.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    .

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    People talk about the need for tough fiscal choices, but cutting the aid budget is the very opposite of that. Indeed, in between the wealthy saying we must cut welfare, and the less well off saying the rich must pay, it seems our ability to make actual sacrifices that affect us personally is pretty limited. Maybe Putin is right about the decadent West. We certainly won't defend ourselves with this kind of pathetic attitude.
    I don't disagree.
    I said a while back I'd be prepared to pay more tax, as we can't leave ourselves undefended in a world where the US has effectively cut Europe adrift.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,660

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    I'm not critical of the reduction; these are unusual times.

    I am critical of those who seem to want us to give no, or virtually no, aid to others. At best, it is incredibly short-sighted. At worst... much worse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,568
    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    Overseas aid is tricky. If people deny that some of it is wasted or directed to places that could do it themselves other people won't believe it, and they already dont believe we'll ever stop wasting some of it. So any denial that fat could be trimmed at all will get dismissed.

    But with such a reduction there will surely be worthy things lost, so even if there is fat to trim there's going to be negative consequences too, it shouldn't be pretended to be an easy or consequence free option.

    From reporting it felt to be Keir played the tone right.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    All public policy choices can be reduced down to casualties, if one so chooses.

    I've seen that done for the WFA and disability welfare as well, and even the Triple Lock on the grounds it will push some into poverty.
    Yes, but you've been arguing this cut is cost free.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,413

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Abolishing the triple lock will save precisely no money at all, until such time as it would mandate a higher rise in pensions than whatever replaces it, presumably a single or double lock of some sort. Of course, if they'd thought of this before announcing April's rise...

    However, the Conservative government twice ignored the triple lock anyway, so abolition is unlikely to lead to rioting in the streets but on recent evidence, nor a land flowing with milk and honey.

    NI is tricky while it retains its status as qualification for the state pension. You could break that link but where does that leave HMG vis-a-vis Waspi women and the like?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    All public policy choices can be reduced down to casualties, if one so chooses.

    I've seen that done for the WFA and disability welfare as well, and even the Triple Lock on the grounds it will push some into poverty.
    Yes, but you've been arguing this cut is cost free.
    The only way opponents of the cuts think they can win the argument is by diverting it onto vaccination programmes, which isn't where most of the money is going - or anywhere close.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,568

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    People talk about the need for tough fiscal choices, but cutting the aid budget is the very opposite of that. Indeed, in between the wealthy saying we must cut welfare, and the less well off saying the rich must pay, it seems our ability to make actual sacrifices that affect us personally is pretty limited. Maybe Putin is right about the decadent West. We certainly won't defend ourselves with this kind of pathetic attitude.
    I dont think the public is yet in a mental position to make tough choices. Its coming, maybe in 10-15 years, but eventually we will have to face up.

    But that day is not this day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    Half of the aid budget is international subscriptions like the WHO.
    A quarter is on housing asylum seekers in the UK.
    A quarter is on Direct aid from the UK, half of it to Africa.

    We could withdraw from WHO and similar, and have a blanket amnesty for all asylum seekers, including prospectively.

    That is the way to make the sums add up if we want to cut £13 billion from the aid budget and spend it on defence.
    Our contributions to the WHO barely scrap £300 million, which is just over 2% of it.
    We contribute to a lot of other international bodies too.

    In 2022 (I can't see more recent figures) we spent over £3 billion on refugees support in or near conflict zones.

    Should we cut that and encourage those refugees to flee further afield, like to the UK?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,553

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,318
    edited 8:31AM
    Trump's AI video of his vision for Gaza.

    Includes belly dancers, golden statues of Chump, and much more.

    https://news.sky.com/story/trump-posts-ai-video-of-gaza-vision-featuring-golden-statues-bearded-belly-dancers-and-netanyahu-on-a-sunbed-13317241

    A song written for the video also plays in the background.

    The lyrics go: "Donald's coming to set you free, bringing the light for all to see, no more tunnels, no more fear: Trump Gaza's finally here.

    "Trump Gaza's shining bright, golden future, a brand new life.

    "Feast and dance the deal is done, Trump Gaza number one."


    How did they say the USA's reputation is doing?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,532

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    I think it's about £13bn/year.
    Ignoring more fundamental tax reforms which need time (but imo would be best solution).

    Increase council tax on higher value band homes -> £3.5bn
    Cap or reduce 40% pension relief to 20% -> £15bn

    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/options-increasing-taxes

    Another idea might be issuing war bonds for a one-off cash injection.

    Spending cuts -> stop triple lock in favour of just linking to prices -> would take time to raise money, but if we'd done it before, would save us £11bn/year now.
    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/new-triple-locked-personal-allowance-pensioners

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    All public policy choices can be reduced down to casualties, if one so chooses.

    I've seen that done for the WFA and disability welfare as well, and even the Triple Lock on the grounds it will push some into poverty.
    Yes, but you've been arguing this cut is cost free.
    The only way opponents of the cuts think they can win the argument is by diverting it onto vaccination programmes, which isn't where most of the money is going - or anywhere close.
    Deflection.
    This is what you said earlier, which I think proves my point.
    ..My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come..

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,413
    Increased defence spending – what will it be spent on? New ships and planes will not be delivered for years, so will they cost anything this year?

    To spend the money immediately, a pay rise for all soldiers, sailors and airmen (including lady airmen) would meet the target but not do much to deter Uncle Vlad. It might help end the recruitment and retention crisis, of course.

    Or as the new target is a percentage of GDP, the government could attack the problem from the other end by causing a recession.

    Or it could follow the Tories' example and just fiddle the figures.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,222
    edited 8:31AM
    kle4 said:

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Put like that and the political calculation of which will be more unpopular is obvious.
    The latter option would be an attack on poorer pensioners, justifiable though as the change is not when you hit pensionable age but April 6th the year after you hit pensionable age (hey my entire life at the moment is edge case personal tax items).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    The attempt to say a halving of overseas aid (which is what this is) won't have casualties is not credible.
    Half of the aid budget is international subscriptions like the WHO.
    A quarter is on housing asylum seekers in the UK.
    A quarter is on Direct aid from the UK, half of it to Africa.

    We could withdraw from WHO and similar, and have a blanket amnesty for all asylum seekers, including prospectively.

    That is the way to make the sums add up if we want to cut £13 billion from the aid budget and spend it on defence.
    Our contributions to the WHO barely scrap £300 million, which is just over 2% of it.
    We contribute to a lot of other international bodies too.

    In 2022 (I can't see more recent figures) we spent over £3 billion on refugees support in or near conflict zones.

    Should we cut that and encourage those refugees to flee further afield, like to the UK?

    That's not the driver of refugees coming to the UK, much as you'd like to make the argument that it is.

    It's those that can afford £5k to £8k to pay people smugglers, which is why it actually increases migration when countries move out of poverty to developing status.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,006
    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    Yes, I don't buy the argument that it's UK aid spending that's solely keeping tens of millions of people alive.

    I think it's letting others off the hook and giving the better off living here a nice feelgood feeling, a bit like their £10 a month direct debit to Christian Aid writ-large.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,660
    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    But not giving aid - especially to those who need it - does nothing to help those people, or those national governments. It also opens the door for others to step in - look at the way China has been operating in Africa, or Russia with grain (much of which was stolen from Ukraine...)

    There's a hefty component of self-interest in foreign aid as well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,519
    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    Also, why are we privileging humans?

    Lefty lawyers say we shouldn’t favour Brits over non Brits (indeed they seem to take pleasure in the opposite)

    Well then why are we favouring our one species of bipedal ape over the rest of the natural world? Don’t mosquitoes have rights, is it correct to wipe them out? Chimps? Birds? Trees? Perhaps our aid should go to limiting humans and letting them die so that millions of other species finally get room to breathe?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,413
    How Reform can win the election in three steps:-

    1. Have sleeper agents slash overseas aid from Britain, Europe and the United States.
    2. Poor nations become even more unpleasant.
    3. Which means more refugees, immigrants and small boats.

    Nigel Farage should pwn the libs by calling for more foreign aid, but better targeted on projects that create jobs for recipient countries. Think China!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,532
    rkrkrk said:

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    I think it's about £13bn/year.
    Ignoring more fundamental tax reforms which need time (but imo would be best solution).

    Increase council tax on higher value band homes -> £3.5bn
    Cap or reduce 40% pension relief to 20% -> £15bn

    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/options-increasing-taxes

    Another idea might be issuing war bonds for a one-off cash injection.

    Spending cuts -> stop triple lock in favour of just linking to prices -> would take time to raise money, but if we'd done it before, would save us £11bn/year now.
    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/new-triple-locked-personal-allowance-pensioners

    Apologies, to be clear, that's how you pay for the entire defence uplift planned (and then some).
    Reversing the aid budget cut would be a smaller amount, I think around £6-7bn.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,813
    edited 8:40AM
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures

    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    Perhaps.
    But neither the Tories nor Labour can run 'time for a change' campaigns, and Reform can.

    The Greens may well pick up votes at Labour's expense, but they have probably even less economic credibility than Reform, and lack the atavistic appeal. As the polling suggests.
    They can use the same tactic, but they're not anywhere near vying for the lead in the polls.

    In any event, I think Farage's explicit emulation of, and romance with the US right will kill his chances

    An SNP version:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted by Westminster
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, in Scotland and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect an SNP government and we’ll cut the waste and the fraud which We All Know is there. Make Scotland a land fit for Our Children’s Futures
    You missed out ‘We don’t need that **** Farage as pm’.

    Mind you Yoon favourite Wings Over Scotland now thinks Reform would allow a second Indy referendum. I think he’s high on his own supply.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,195
    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    You could make that argument for charities in Britain funding British institutions, like food banks, NHS services, PTA in schools
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,532

    Increased defence spending – what will it be spent on? New ships and planes will not be delivered for years, so will they cost anything this year?

    To spend the money immediately, a pay rise for all soldiers, sailors and airmen (including lady airmen) would meet the target but not do much to deter Uncle Vlad. It might help end the recruitment and retention crisis, of course.

    Or as the new target is a percentage of GDP, the government could attack the problem from the other end by causing a recession.

    Or it could follow the Tories' example and just fiddle the figures.

    Yes, if it is going to do anything it should be hiring and training more soldiers, and buying things which can be used within a <5 year time frame. The danger is we just hand it all over to BAE to build things which will be ready in 40 years time.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,144

    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    Yes, I don't buy the argument that it's UK aid spending that's solely keeping tens of millions of people alive.

    I think it's letting others off the hook and giving the better off living here a nice feelgood feeling, a bit like their £10 a month direct debit to Christian Aid writ-large.
    So even individual acts of charity are deemed morally repugnant now? This is through the looking glass stuff.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,527
    Yes, it's possible. But highly unlikely.

    And probably getting more unlikely, as with various recent events at home and abroad, it's possible we have already passed peak Reform.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,837
    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    The problem is that whilst voters might actually accrpt that Reform believes in these things, no one would think the Greens believe in them. The Green agenda has all been about telling us what we MUST do and that higher taxes are an acceptable price to pay for saving the planet. The Greens are a leftwing radical party (I say that without any implied criticism even if I don't agree with them).

    To suddenly switch to an entirely new set of priorities far removed from their previous agenda seems to far-fetched to be believable.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,532
    Disaster relief and health are the two largest aid spending categories.
    This year is GAVI replenishment and thanks to brilliant UK science we finally have a vaccine for malaria.
    Absolute tragedy that millions of babies who need it won't get it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,786
    edited 8:52AM
    Some polls have Reform winning most seats already and Farage becoming PM if he can get Tory support. Much like Meloni became PM in Italy with Forza Italia support.

    Certainly a 'common sense' agenda on less woke, less immigration, less net zero and more practical solutions like Trump could pay them
    dividends as it did for him and the GOP when he won the presidency in the US last year and the GOP took Congress
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,144

    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    You could make that argument for charities in Britain funding British institutions, like food banks, NHS services, PTA in schools
    This is the next step. It's all part of the same agenda, the goal to build a world in the image of the wealthy selfish psychopaths who are promulgating it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,195

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    The problem is that whilst voters might actually accrpt that Reform believes in these things, no one would think the Greens believe in them. The Green agenda has all been about telling us what we MUST do and that higher taxes are an acceptable price to pay for saving the planet. The Greens are a leftwing radical party (I say that without any implied criticism even if I don't agree with them).

    To suddenly switch to an entirely new set of priorities far removed from their previous agenda seems to far-fetched to be believable.
    The Greens like most parties are more than one thing. They seem largely a left wing radical party in the cities, but out in the sticks they are much closer to the image of hippie nature loving concerned citizens (with a generous dose of NIMBY).
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,472
    edited 8:52AM
    The electoral success of Reform in the future depends on a number of unknown factors more than decent organisation and apple pie policies.

    1) The visible continuing failure of trad parties
    2) How the USA goes in the next four years, and how Farage/Reform is seen to relate to it
    3) How much Europe's military situation means that we vote for trad parties rather than the new kids out of fear
    4) How well and in what proportion Reform's dog whistle stuff attracts and repels
    5) Whether in the next GE the invisible slogan for millions of voters is 'Anyone but Reform'; replacing the 'Anyone but the Tories' in 2024
    6) Whether the trad parties can get a handful of top quality campaigners for older voters and master social media for younger ones
    7) What most voters want our relations with Europe to be by 2029
    8) Farage's continuing health and strength.

    Not impossible is an invisible understanding between Lab and Con that they want everyone to vote for either of them in preference to Reform, and sort of gang up against them.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,047

    Increased defence spending – what will it be spent on? New ships and planes will not be delivered for years, so will they cost anything this year?

    I don't think that's much of a concern for anyone involved at the moment. The point of the announcement was to fluff Trump ahead of SKS's visit.

    More Typhoon looks like a low effort choice, if only to keep Warton on life support until Tempest makes it past the speculative rendering stage. There will be no new ships any time soon unless the government can bear to get them built South Korea or Vietnam which they can't.

    They should pour the cash in to wage increases, improved conditions and better housing for non-commissioned ranks but I would bet my lavish RN pension that they won't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273

    Increased defence spending – what will it be spent on? New ships and planes will not be delivered for years, so will they cost anything this year?

    To spend the money immediately, a pay rise for all soldiers, sailors and airmen (including lady airmen) would meet the target but not do much to deter Uncle Vlad. It might help end the recruitment and retention crisis, of course.

    Or as the new target is a percentage of GDP, the government could attack the problem from the other end by causing a recession.

    Or it could follow the Tories' example and just fiddle the figures.

    I think that most of the "increase" is effectively standing still. There a significant overspend this year to be written off, and an unfreeze of the defence budget for net year, employers NI etc. Then there's the buying back of forces housing from the bodged privatisation of these.

    Sure, the alternative would have been further defence cuts, but it isn't a real growth in capability.

    Like you say a pay rise to improve recruitment would help, and we could scrap the poorly performing outsourced recruiting too. Dealing with the misogyny and harassment that recently drove a 19 year old gunner to suicide might help recruitment too.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,058

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't
    because I think our donations displace
    others, vaccination programmes are a small
    proportion of aid spending in any event;
    ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    I was not a fan of the 0.7% pledge because they should be focused on funding worthwhile projects not hitting an arbitrary target

    And there is definitely money wasted - like the £1bn+ we used to give to the EU to hand out.

    But the biggest single impact the uk had on the growth of terrorism in east Africa was on funding secondary school education for women.

    Turns out that educated women was a man who has a stable job not someone who rides around in a batter jalopy shooting people. Turns out that young men will rather their lifestyle and politics to appeal to attractive and educated young men. Who’d have thought?

    Add together GAVI, WHO, UNAIDS, WPC, Malaria funding, etc etc. and you get to a sizeable sum. But in the main well spent.

    We need to reduce the number of asylum seekers and immigrants. Correctly deployed, overseas aid reduces the “push” factor and should be in tandem to action to reduce the “pull”. Perhaps we should rebrand it as the Immigration Department and give it the border patrol, DfID, asylum processing etc. joined up government and all that

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,999
    RUK are indeed a threat and I expect they will follow Rochdale's excellent advice for their pitch. But on the betting, they are 2.96 to win the next election. Not to do well, not to make a big breakthrough, not to come second, to win it. That's a clear lay imo.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,202

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    I am happy with the proposed cut to international aid, but would have also been happy with additional tax rises or other spending cuts.

    Xp on income tax (or on certain bands) would be fine with me and that would be the most direct tax on myself. Needs must and all that.

    As it happens I suspect we'll see tax rises and spending cuts down the line to get us to 3%. But it was politically astute to delay them given we've just had a big tax increase on employment and credible spending cuts can take time to implement.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,837
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    The problem is that whilst voters might actually accrpt that Reform believes in these things, no one would think the Greens believe in them. The Green agenda has all been about telling us what we MUST do and that higher taxes are an acceptable price to pay for saving the planet. The Greens are a leftwing radical party (I say that without any implied criticism even if I don't agree with them).

    To suddenly switch to an entirely new set of priorities far removed from their previous agenda seems to far-fetched to be believable.
    The Greens like most parties are more than one thing. They seem largely a left wing radical party in the cities, but out in the sticks they are much closer to the image of hippie nature loving concerned citizens (with a generous dose of NIMBY).
    I don"t disagree. And like every party I don"t dusagree with 100% of their policies. But none of that reflects the agenda Rochdale sets out which Foxy claims can be equally applied to the Greens.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,273

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    The problem is that whilst voters might actually accrpt that Reform believes in these things, no one would think the Greens believe in them. The Green agenda has all been about telling us what we MUST do and that higher taxes are an acceptable price to pay for saving the planet. The Greens are a leftwing radical party (I say that without any implied criticism even if I don't agree with them).

    To suddenly switch to an entirely new set of priorities far removed from their previous agenda seems to far-fetched to be believable.
    It all hinges on what you consider waste and Reform.

    For example ending privatisation and outsourcing in health and education is reforming them.

    Similarly restoring our living environment is restoring pride in our country, local ownership and public transport is about restoring towns and cities etc.

    You may not like that vision, but it is at least as valid a view of restoring pride in Britain as any amount of Blimpish rhetoric from Farage.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,570
    edited 9:04AM

    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    But not giving aid - especially to those who need it - does nothing to help those people, or those national governments. It also opens the door for others to step in - look at the way China has been operating in Africa, or Russia with grain (much of which was stolen from Ukraine...)

    There's a hefty component of self-interest in foreign aid as well.
    It's in the UK's interest that all those growing sugar and coffee stay healthy. The same goes for preparing crops for climate change to prevent mass migration from famine. And so on.

    Musk closing down the US 's domestic programmes for disease prevention is probably the most dangerous thing they've done so far, let alone USAID.

    There are some really interesting theories about aid causing a lot of issues in the first place. But it would be extremely naive to think removing it would stimulate democracy and free markets, simply because the Chinese are destroying any hope of either anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,436
    edited 9:02AM

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Abolishing the triple lock will save precisely no money at all, until such time as it would mandate a higher rise in pensions than whatever replaces it, presumably a single or double lock of some sort. Of course, if they'd thought of this before announcing April's rise...

    However, the Conservative government twice ignored the triple lock anyway, so abolition is unlikely to lead to rioting in the streets but on recent evidence, nor a land flowing with milk and honey.

    NI is tricky while it retains its status as qualification for the state pension. You could break that link but where does that leave HMG vis-a-vis Waspi women and the like?
    Also, the moment one even mentions breaking the NI-pension link, every Tory association went wooh because almost every pensioner is convinced it's an attempt to means-test the state pension despite all pensioners having paid NI (or given the equivalent credits) all their working lives on the basis of entitlement. Of course when the Tories were in charge Labour pensioners didn't count, but now ...
  • eekeek Posts: 29,222

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures

    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    Perhaps.
    But neither the Tories nor Labour can run 'time for a change' campaigns, and Reform can.

    The Greens may well pick up votes at Labour's expense, but they have probably even less economic credibility than Reform, and lack the atavistic appeal. As the polling suggests.
    They can use the same tactic, but they're not anywhere near vying for the lead in the polls.

    In any event, I think Farage's explicit emulation of, and romance with the US right will kill his chances

    An SNP version:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted by Westminster
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, in Scotland and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect an SNP government and we’ll cut the waste and the fraud which We All Know is there. Make Scotland a land fit for Our Children’s Futures
    You missed out ‘We don’t need that **** Farage as pm’.

    Mind you Yoon favourite Wings Over Scotland now thinks Reform would allow a second Indy referendum. I think he’s high on his own supply.
    Farage is cynical as F***. If it got him a few extra votes he would happily offer people a referendum
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,436
    edited 9:06AM
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures

    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    Perhaps.
    But neither the Tories nor Labour can run 'time for a change' campaigns, and Reform can.

    The Greens may well pick up votes at Labour's expense, but they have probably even less economic credibility than Reform, and lack the atavistic appeal. As the polling suggests.
    They can use the same tactic, but they're not anywhere near vying for the lead in the polls.

    In any event, I think Farage's explicit emulation of, and romance with the US right will kill his chances

    An SNP version:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted by Westminster
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, in Scotland and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect an SNP government and we’ll cut the waste and the fraud which We All Know is there. Make Scotland a land fit for Our Children’s Futures
    You missed out ‘We don’t need that **** Farage as pm’.

    Mind you Yoon favourite Wings Over Scotland now thinks Reform would allow a second Indy referendum. I think he’s high on his own supply.
    Farage is cynical as F***. If it got him a few extra votes he would happily offer people a referendum
    Point taken, but not in Scotland (at least not actually allowing one). Reform is Unionist if nothing else. And given current polling, even allowing a referendum is a risk too far. See how many of our PBUnionists didn't want to allow Scotland the freedom to choose they so loudly espouse in other things.

    Mr F's been on manoeuvres to set up a Slab-Reform coalition in Holyrood - and Mr Sarwar has been responding to the courtship so far as I can see.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 4

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Ha! A sure vote winner for anyone 55+! Not!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,519

    On topic, whilst I agree that RP's outline will possibly improve the Reform prospects, the elephant in the room will remain the Trump supporting Putinist agenda.

    No one seriously thinks that the USA and the world in general will be in a better place in 4 years time as a result of Trump's utter lunacy both at home and abroad. Indeed the US is going to look utterly devestated because of Trump's economic and social policies. So unless they can generate a complete decoupling between Reform and Trump in people's minds then Farage and his party are going to be tarred with that same brush.

    That will swamp any claimed policies they might come up with.

    Ambrose Evens Pritchard is predicting a very deep Trump recession in the USA (Telegraph)

    If that happens it will redound on the GOP but also Trumpy parties elsewhere. Probably

    Two points however

    1. AEPritchard is often very prescient but sometimes gets things spectacularly wrong

    2. The migration crisis in Europe is possibly gonna get so bad in people will think “fuck the economics” and vote hard right anyway

    Indeed there is a slight chance reform could be outflanked ON THE RIGHT by a kind of British AfD

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,837
    scampi25 said:

    For those critical of the reduction in overseas aid, what would your preferred alternative be?

    Abolish the triple lock and make pensioners pay NI on employment income.
    Ha! A sure vote winner for anyone 55+! Not!
    Four years out from an election that doesn't matter.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,047
    On topic... what the Fukkers really need are tory defections. To lend some political heft and sustain the impression of (non-majusucle M) momentum.

    I doubt Jenners will turn his cloak as he has a realistic expectation of ruling over the smouldering tory rubble left by The Kemster's rapid unscheduled disassembly of the party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,786
    Lord Ashcroft meanwhile has a poll with 23% of voters wanting Farage to be PM and 33% to have a government post.

    Though most voters think Reform will increase their seats but not win

    "Lord Ashcroft: My latest polling. Starmer as a statesman, who'd be best prime minister, and national interest over international law | Conservative Home" https://conservativehome.com/2025/02/25/lord-ashcroft-my-latest-polling-starmer-as-a-statesman-whod-be-best-prime-minister-and-national-interest-over-international-law/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    rkrkrk said:

    Increased defence spending – what will it be spent on? New ships and planes will not be delivered for years, so will they cost anything this year?

    To spend the money immediately, a pay rise for all soldiers, sailors and airmen (including lady airmen) would meet the target but not do much to deter Uncle Vlad. It might help end the recruitment and retention crisis, of course.

    Or as the new target is a percentage of GDP, the government could attack the problem from the other end by causing a recession.

    Or it could follow the Tories' example and just fiddle the figures.

    Yes, if it is going to do anything it should be hiring and training more soldiers, and buying things which can be used within a < 5 year time frame. The danger is we just hand it all over to BAE to build things which will be ready in 40 years time.
    Actually, BAE makes quite a lot of stuff that can be used quite quickly.
    Along with the other more problematic kit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,712
    https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1894616370714730968

    President Trump shares a video of an AI vision for the Gaza Strip, ends with Trump having drinks at a pool with Benjamin Netanyahu.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,472
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    FPT…

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is there any evidence that foreign aid has produced any positive results over the last 60 years? Or does most of it go in the pockets of autocratic leaders.

    Yes, lots of good has been done and it's fairly straightforward to see.

    The wealth of autocratic leaders does not come from embezzled aid, not least because very little aid is intergovernmental. Almost all is given via nongovernmental partners.

    The vast wealth of corrupt autocrats is nearly all derived from oil and mineral deals with major international mining and petrochemical companies, largely from selling mining and drilling concessions. Much of their wealth is then banked in the City and other western countries Its capitalists not aid workers that fund their lifestyles and armies. It looks like Trump wants to continue this dishonourable tradition.
    By which you mean NGOs.

    I've reviewed the list posted upthread. My suspicion is that aid, hosed liberally across a spectrum of failed and failing states, achieves very little and is possibly even malign. "Aid" should be specific, targetted, emergency-only and time-limited.

    Like with Kids Company, another original Cameron-era trophy that fell apart, I expect this to all come out in reports and scandals in the years to come, just as it did with Camila Batmanghelidjh.
    "emergency-only"

    How do you define that? Are vaccination campaigns an 'emergency' in your eyes?

    e.g. this:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e62181fe90e077e3c38a330/Gavi-Replenishment-campaign.pdf
    An "emergency" is a sudden, unexpected situation that requires immediate action to prevent harm, injury, or danger to people, property, or the environment. They can range from medical crises (new or novel or major disease outbreaks or severe injuries) to natural disasters (earthquakes, fires or floods). In some instances, that might extend to creating safe refuges for people.

    I don't think the aid budget should be used to permanently sustain vaccination programmes in other countries, unless we have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease.
    Don’t we usually have a direct national interest in the global suppression of a disease? Infectious diseases do not respect international borders.
    In many instances, yes, but not always - such as some tropical diseases.

    That may come under the aegis of the WHO
    or other NGOs but I don't think the UK government should be more widely cross-subsidising the healthcare of other countries.
    The UK is the leader in vaccination programmes through Malaria Action, GAVI, etc. It is the single most impactful intervention in human health anywhere in the world.

    Many of these countries simply can’t afford these programmes - they need food and water for their citizens first.

    I’m pretty right wing. But this is both a good use of money and the right thing to do
    I'm not down with the White Saviour stuff in Africa, I'm afraid, and doubt those countries are still scratching around for just food and water; it's not the 1980s anymore.

    But even if we accept that, and I don't because I think our donations displace others, vaccination programmes are a small proportion of aid spending in any event; ours on GAVI is about £400m per year.

    It's not where most of the money is going.
    The problem with aid spending is it lets those national governments off the hook and nothing ever changes for them. Withdrawing aid will help people help themselves by voting in governments that will help the people rather than line their own pockets.
    But not giving aid - especially to those who need it - does nothing to help those people, or those national governments. It also opens the door for others to step in - look at the way China has been operating in Africa, or Russia with grain (much of which was stolen from Ukraine...)

    There's a hefty component of self-interest in foreign aid as well.
    It's in the UK's interest that all those growing sugar and coffee stay healthy. The same goes for preparing crops for climate change to prevent mass migration from famine. And so on.

    Musk closing down the US 's domestic programmes for disease prevention is probably the most dangerous thing they've done so far, let alone USAID.

    There are some really interesting theories about aid causing a lot of issues in the first place. But it would be extremely naive to think removing it would stimulate democracy and free markets, simply because the Chinese are destroying any hope of either anyway.
    Yes, 100%. The surest means of world stability is reasonable levels of prosperity, opportunity, health and decent government. Where this is achieved it goes unnoticed because it does not generate news of crisis and wars and famine, and doesn't sent millions of stricken people onto the sea in small boats.

    For the already wealthier world, there is a simple formula as to why this is also in our self interest as well as good in itself: Prosperous neighbours make good customers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337
    Leon said:

    On topic, whilst I agree that RP's outline will possibly improve the Reform prospects, the elephant in the room will remain the Trump supporting Putinist agenda.

    No one seriously thinks that the USA and the world in general will be in a better place in 4 years time as a result of Trump's utter lunacy both at home and abroad. Indeed the US is going to look utterly devestated because of Trump's economic and social policies. So unless they can generate a complete decoupling between Reform and Trump in people's minds then Farage and his party are going to be tarred with that same brush.

    That will swamp any claimed policies they might come up with.

    Ambrose Evens Pritchard is predicting a very deep Trump recession in the USA (Telegraph)

    If that happens it will redound on the GOP but also Trumpy parties elsewhere. Probably

    Two points however

    1. AEPritchard is often very prescient but sometimes gets things spectacularly wrong

    Substitute 'almost always' for 'sometimes'.
    Compared to your Oracle of Delphi shtick, he's more like a negative super forecaster.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,048
    Leon said:

    On topic, whilst I agree that RP's outline will possibly improve the Reform prospects, the elephant in the room will remain the Trump supporting Putinist agenda.

    No one seriously thinks that the USA and the world in general will be in a better place in 4 years time as a result of Trump's utter lunacy both at home and abroad. Indeed the US is going to look utterly devestated because of Trump's economic and social policies. So unless they can generate a complete decoupling between Reform and Trump in people's minds then Farage and his party are going to be tarred with that same brush.

    That will swamp any claimed policies they might come up with.

    Ambrose Evens Pritchard is predicting a very deep Trump recession in the USA (Telegraph)

    If that happens it will redound on the GOP but also Trumpy parties elsewhere. Probably

    Two points however

    1. AEPritchard is often very prescient but sometimes gets things spectacularly wrong

    2. The migration crisis in Europe is possibly gonna get so bad in people will think “fuck the economics” and vote hard right anyway

    Indeed there is a slight chance reform could be outflanked ON THE RIGHT by a kind of British AfD

    AEP has predicted 23,675 of the last 3 recessions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,786
    Leon said:

    On topic, whilst I agree that RP's outline will possibly improve the Reform prospects, the elephant in the room will remain the Trump supporting Putinist agenda.

    No one seriously thinks that the USA and the world in general will be in a better place in 4 years time as a result of Trump's utter lunacy both at home and abroad. Indeed the US is going to look utterly devestated because of Trump's economic and social policies. So unless they can generate a complete decoupling between Reform and Trump in people's minds then Farage and his party are going to be tarred with that same brush.

    That will swamp any claimed policies they might come up with.

    Ambrose Evens Pritchard is predicting a very deep Trump recession in the USA (Telegraph)

    If that happens it will redound on the GOP but also Trumpy parties elsewhere. Probably

    Two points however

    1. AEPritchard is often very prescient but sometimes gets things spectacularly wrong

    2. The migration crisis in Europe is possibly gonna get so bad in people will think “fuck the economics” and vote hard right anyway

    Indeed there is a slight chance reform could be outflanked ON THE RIGHT by a kind of British AfD

    Tommy Robinson backs UKIP now
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,837
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    It wouldn't be hard for any party to run those bullet points, even the Greens with only minimal editing:

    We need to get value for money – so much of your money is being wasted on privatised utilities and services.
    We need significant reforms of health, education, social services and tax to make them work for you again
    We need to make work pay your bills, and that means cutting the cost of living
    We need to restore pride in our communities, our country and in ourselves
    We need to stop our town and cities falling into disrepair by fixing the pavements and roads and reopening the shops
    Elect a Green government and we’ll cut the waste and the tax fraud which We All Know is there. Make Britain a land fit for Our Children’s Futures


    It's just Motherhood and Apple pie.

    The problem is that whilst voters might actually accrpt that Reform believes in these things, no one would think the Greens believe in them. The Green agenda has all been about telling us what we MUST do and that higher taxes are an acceptable price to pay for saving the planet. The Greens are a leftwing radical party (I say that without any implied criticism even if I don't agree with them).

    To suddenly switch to an entirely new set of priorities far removed from their previous agenda seems to far-fetched to be believable.
    It all hinges on what you consider waste and Reform.

    For example ending privatisation and outsourcing in health and education is reforming them.

    Similarly restoring our living environment is restoring pride in our country, local ownership and public transport is about restoring towns and cities etc.

    You may not like that vision, but it is at least as valid a view of restoring pride in Britain as any amount of Blimpish rhetoric from Farage.
    But no one will believe them. Everyone knows that the Greens are the high tax, hair shirt, save the planet even if it impoverishes us all party* just as Reform are the anti immigration, Britain First, latent racist party.*

    Unfortunately for the Greens it seems that the racist Britain First message has far more traction with the public than the hair shirt, save the planet message.

    * I accept both of these are broad caricatures but that is how most people view parties; as broad brush stroke pictures rather than targeted messages.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 761
    On topic, I won't take Reform's electoral prospects seriously until I see evidence that they've learnt how to operate as a proper political party and are serious about winning actual elections.

    I know a fair number of people who say they're committed Reform Party members but their interactions with it make it seem more like the National Trust than a political party. They pay some money and buy some merch but they've never met a local party organiser, been invited to a meeting or had much communication from the central party at all. Reform massively underperformed it's vote share at the last election and I see no evidence to think that's going to wildly change.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 430
    R
    MattW said:

    Trump's AI video of his vision for Gaza.

    Includes belly dancers, golden statues of Chump, and much more.

    https://news.sky.com/story/trump-posts-ai-video-of-gaza-vision-featuring-golden-statues-bearded-belly-dancers-and-netanyahu-on-a-sunbed-13317241

    A song written for the video also plays in the background.

    The lyrics go: "Donald's coming to set you free, bringing the light for all to see, no more tunnels, no more fear: Trump Gaza's finally here.

    "Trump Gaza's shining bright, golden future, a brand new life.

    "Feast and dance the deal is done, Trump Gaza number one."


    How did they say the USA's reputation is doing?

    Reminds me of Mossad's comments when they managed to persuade Hezbollah to buy those booby-trapped walkie-talkies.

    "We create a pretend world. We are a global production company. We write the screenplay, we're the directors, we're the producers, we're the main actors, and the world is our stage."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy3l02wxqdo
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,337

    https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1894616370714730968

    President Trump shares a video of an AI vision for the Gaza Strip, ends with Trump having drinks at a pool with Benjamin Netanyahu.

    "Batshit crazy" is the politest description I've found for that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,660

    https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1894616370714730968

    President Trump shares a video of an AI vision for the Gaza Strip, ends with Trump having drinks at a pool with Benjamin Netanyahu.

    I've just seen that. It's quite... something.

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1894616074861130182
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,813
    Dura_Ace said:

    On topic... what the Fukkers really need are tory defections. To lend some political heft and sustain the impression of (non-majusucle M) momentum.

    I doubt Jenners will turn his cloak as he has a realistic expectation of ruling over the smouldering tory rubble left by The Kemster's rapid unscheduled disassembly of the party.

    Surely these two collosi deserting the sinking ship will add to the momentum.





    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/disappointing-blow-for-scottish-tories-as-another-councillor-defects-to-reform-4998091
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,519
    edited 9:26AM
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    On topic, whilst I agree that RP's outline will possibly improve the Reform prospects, the elephant in the room will remain the Trump supporting Putinist agenda.

    No one seriously thinks that the USA and the world in general will be in a better place in 4 years time as a result of Trump's utter lunacy both at home and abroad. Indeed the US is going to look utterly devestated because of Trump's economic and social policies. So unless they can generate a complete decoupling between Reform and Trump in people's minds then Farage and his party are going to be tarred with that same brush.

    That will swamp any claimed policies they might come up with.

    Ambrose Evens Pritchard is predicting a very deep Trump recession in the USA (Telegraph)

    If that happens it will redound on the GOP but also Trumpy parties elsewhere. Probably

    Two points however

    1. AEPritchard is often very prescient but sometimes gets things spectacularly wrong

    Substitute 'almost always' for 'sometimes'.
    Compared to your Oracle of Delphi shtick, he's more like a negative super forecaster.
    That’s not really true

    He was - AFAICS - the first commentator to really note the huge impact of America’s (then) coming energy independence. And how it would change the world (you could argue that it has led to Trump; America no longer needs the world)

    Also - and this is a true story - I used to share an editor with AEP back when I did a few knapping stories for the Tory graph. Editor now at the Times

    This editor used to say “I have just two genius writers who sometimes say stupid shit but occasionally say stuff that’s sharper than anyone else - one of them is AEP”

    Modesty precludes.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 4,333
    edited 9:26AM
    It seems incredible to me that we are tying to predict the next election now.

    If you’d done this at the same point in the 2020 cycle you’d have been laughed out of the room for saying SKS would go onto win and Johnson wouldn’t have a decade in power. In fact, I was.

    If the Trump agenda is successful Reform will do well, if it isn’t then they won’t. I still think hitching themselves to it was a bad idea. They don’t need do to that.

    Immigration is going to drop a lot this year (thanks mostly to Rishi Sunak), waiting lists are coming down.

    If the government can show progress on either the NHS (where people feel it has got better), immigration (where people feel it’s gone down) or the economy (least likely at this point), then they get re-elected IMHO.

    But these days I seem to be the only person in the world that doesn’t think this is the worst government in history. Chagos is stupid though.
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