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This morning I said Rachel Reeves was safe in the forthcoming reshuffle – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,318
edited February 13 in General
This morning I said Rachel Reeves was safe in the forthcoming reshuffle – politicalbetting.com

With my usual impeccable timing this morning I wrote a piece based on The I newspaper’s article that Rachel Reeves was safe in the forthcoming reshuffle, a few hours later as we can see with the screenshot above from the BBC News website that may be a dubious prediction.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088
    First... must do some actual work
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088
    Trouble will always be - is there anything else? If its just being a bit fast and loose (a decade when it was just over five years, an economist when it was more like economist adjacent) then I think she's fine until Starmer has a reason for her to go. If there is more (and why now, not a Sunday newspaper style scoop?), then it could be very different.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,562
    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    I cannot see this as anything other than a nothing burger although her enemies have picked, as someone sagely pointed out, an ideal time to raise it with the reshuffle coming.

    But I though Haigh unlucky too. Her offence went back over a decade and was a matter of public record.
  • Justin Welby risks £25k tax bill for staying in Lambeth Palace after resigning

    Former archbishop could be hit with hefty sum for living in Church accommodation for up to six months


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/justin-welby-25k-tax-bill-lambeth-palace-resignation/
  • Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372

    Justin Welby risks £25k tax bill for staying in Lambeth Palace after resigning

    Former archbishop could be hit with hefty sum for living in Church accommodation for up to six months


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/justin-welby-25k-tax-bill-lambeth-palace-resignation/

    More DT Just-so horror stories to make the Reform voter's flesh creep. Maybe ... if ... Boo! Naaaaasty Taxman!

    But is ++Cantuar (retd.) the angel or the devil in this parable?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,950
    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,049
    I agree with TSE. The problem for Reeves is that a lot of people are clearly out for her and she seemingly has few fans within the PLP (or wider Labour party).

    However, there's not much point Starmer replacing Reeves unless he plans on changing policy too - and presumably he's signed off the broad concept of her plan. Indeed, if anything, the national security issues piling up mean there's probably even less money for everything else.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,088

    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710
    FPT...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Possibly the best ever takedown of the US “Deep State”, vindication for what DOGE are doing, and confirmation that USAID was basically the CIA doing what the CIA were told not to do for the last couple of decades.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPc8OVNngg

    Warning: this video features Joe Rogan and Mike Benz, and is 202 minutes long.

    It turns out that Rory Stewart’s wife’s charity was also getting millions from USAID.
    Yes, that's how foreign aid often works. You give money to a charity to do charitable work.
    And it’s totally incidental that these charities appear to be vastly overpopulated with close relatives of the politicians involved in the funding decisions.

    There needs to be a British DOGE.
    Your anti corruption credentials will be sorely tested these coming years as a Trump and Musk supporter.
    I’m not a Trump supporter, but I’m absolutely a Musk supporter. Every Western country is going to have to deal with a line-item audit of their spending at some point.
    Musk doesn't work for the US government or US people, he works for Musk.
    No, he works directly for the elected President.
    You think?...
    I note State has just ordered $400m worth of Cybertrucks...
    Is the cybertruck order an instance of:-
    1. Elon grifting?
    2. the SoS currying favour?
    3. the deep state manufacturing a conflict of interest in order to recuse Musk?
    On (3), the White House has said that Musk will police his own conflicts of interest: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-05/white-house-says-musk-will-police-his-own-conflicts-of-interest

    Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710
    FPT...

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Reading the BBC about Reeves brings something to mind that I've thought a lot about. One quote "most of the first decade of her career at the Bank of England". And then "I spent the best part of a decade as an economist at the Bank of England." Are either of those phrases actually that innacurate?

    I muse on the meaning of 'most'. And also the common use of decimate.

    I propose that the common use of the two words is out of line with the dictionary definition. Decimate is to reduce by 10 % (from the barbaric Roman punishment meted out to poorly performing units). Yet common use would suggest a far higher loss than 10%.

    Similarly when I here 'most' (as in for example 'most people love pineapple on pizza') I think of 80-90% of people when the reality is it can mean 52%. As in 52% of those who voted voted for Brexit. Yet to say most people voted for Brexit feels wrong.

    I can't be the only one thinking this.

    Yes "most" implies by a distance. To me it does anyway.
    Your Party Right or Wrong eh?

    I really thought you were a bit brighter than this @kinabalu . When the most impartial (some would say left leaning) broadcaster uncovers more examples of exaggeration and lies on her CV, and now the possibility of expenses wrongdoing and you still mindlessly and uncritically support her?

    You are the Labour Party equivalent of HYUFD, or probably worse, a MAGA supporter.
    Er, my interpretation of "most" speaks against Reeves. It implies she's overegging.

    Have you stopped reading things?
    I read pretty thoroughly, and I am reading that you are desperately trying to excuse a liar simply because she wears a red rosette. We now have the suggestion that she was "economic" with her interpretation of expenses rules. This is on top of the hideously inappropriate acceptance of bungs in the form of clothes from a Labour donor.

    Not a good look really is it? Very few other walks of life would find this acceptable. Her probity is being proven to be no better, and probably worse, than Boris Johnson.
    Surely it is a good thing for an economist to be "economic" with their interpretation of expenses rules.
  • Sort of stuff you might bluster your way out of if you are doing a sterling job. She really isn't, so it will continue to be damaging.

    Meanwhile, over in Tameside, the Labour councillor who whistleblowed on the 'Trigger me Timbers' whatsapp group, has been suspended by Labour. Mmmm.
  • Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
    Am I the only person in the UK who had heard about obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception?

    I’ve always known I would not do well in prison so I have always engaged in the highest standards of probity.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    Trouble will always be - is there anything else? If its just being a bit fast and loose (a decade when it was just over five years, an economist when it was more like economist adjacent) then I think she's fine until Starmer has a reason for her to go. If there is more (and why now, not a Sunday newspaper style scoop?), then it could be very different.

    Why now and not a Sunday newspaper scoop? Because the BBC isn't a newspaper and doesn't have a Sunday edition, presumably. They just stick their big investigative pieces out whenever they want to in the week.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,950

    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
    Extending the dates of employment is not “stretching the truth a little”

    “Stretching the truth” is saying “paragon of virtue, universally respected by all colleagues”
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    @nickschifrin
    BREAKING:
    @SecDef walks back his statement yesterday that a negotiated settlement is not likely to end with Ukraine in @NATO: "These negotiations are led by @realDonaldTrump. Everything is on the table. In his conversations with Vladimir Putin and Zelensky, what he decides to allow or not allow, is at the purview of the leader of the free world--President Trump. So I'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what President Trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made."
  • In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,768
    edited February 13

    FPT...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Possibly the best ever takedown of the US “Deep State”, vindication for what DOGE are doing, and confirmation that USAID was basically the CIA doing what the CIA were told not to do for the last couple of decades.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPc8OVNngg

    Warning: this video features Joe Rogan and Mike Benz, and is 202 minutes long.

    It turns out that Rory Stewart’s wife’s charity was also getting millions from USAID.
    Yes, that's how foreign aid often works. You give money to a charity to do charitable work.
    And it’s totally incidental that these charities appear to be vastly overpopulated with close relatives of the politicians involved in the funding decisions.

    There needs to be a British DOGE.
    Your anti corruption credentials will be sorely tested these coming years as a Trump and Musk supporter.
    I’m not a Trump supporter, but I’m absolutely a Musk supporter. Every Western country is going to have to deal with a line-item audit of their spending at some point.
    Musk doesn't work for the US government or US people, he works for Musk.
    No, he works directly for the elected President.
    You think?...
    I note State has just ordered $400m worth of Cybertrucks...
    Is the cybertruck order an instance of:-
    1. Elon grifting?
    2. the SoS currying favour?
    3. the deep state manufacturing a conflict of interest in order to recuse Musk?
    On (3), the White House has said that Musk will police his own conflicts of interest: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-05/white-house-says-musk-will-police-his-own-conflicts-of-interest

    Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp! Drain the swamp!
    Swamp the drains with their bullshit and no one will be able to work out what’s going on seems to be the GOP way.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
    Am I the only person in the UK who had heard about obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception?

    I’ve always known I would not do well in prison so I have always engaged in the highest standards of probity.
    But Foxy's point is that she hadn't obtained a pecuniary advantage. This wasn't on a CV submitted to get a job, it's on a LinkedIn page when she has a job. Starmer didn't make her CoE because he was perusing the LinkedIn pages of all the Labour MPs and thought, "Oh, she's experienced."

    Which is why I think this story is less damaging than the other one. The other one suggests she was misusing an expenses account.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 13
    Same old story,

    Now German outlet Spiegel reports that he came to Germany at the end of 2016 and his asylum application was later rejected. He was then granted what has been translated as a "tolerance" permit, which means his deportation decision was suspended. Officials earlier said he was known to the police for theft and drug offences.

    Failed asylum, still not deported, is a known criminal, still not deported,...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,049

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Possibly the best ever takedown of the US “Deep State”, vindication for what DOGE are doing, and confirmation that USAID was basically the CIA doing what the CIA were told not to do for the last couple of decades.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPc8OVNngg

    Warning: this video features Joe Rogan and Mike Benz, and is 202 minutes long.

    It turns out that Rory Stewart’s wife’s charity was also getting millions from USAID.
    Yes, that's how foreign aid often works. You give money to a charity to do charitable work.
    And it’s totally incidental that these charities appear to be vastly overpopulated with close relatives of the politicians involved in the funding decisions.

    There needs to be a British DOGE.
    Your anti corruption credentials will be sorely tested these coming years as a Trump and Musk supporter.
    I’m not a Trump supporter, but I’m absolutely a Musk supporter. Every Western country is going to have to deal with a line-item audit of their spending at some point.
    Musk doesn't work for the US government or US people, he works for Musk.
    No, he works directly for the elected President.
    You think?...
    I note State has just ordered $400m worth of Cybertrucks...
    Is the cybertruck order an instance of:-
    1. Elon grifting?
    2. the SoS currying favour?
    3. the deep state manufacturing a conflict of interest in order to recuse Musk?
    Both (1) and (2) probably. As Bondegezou notes, (3) isn't a practical issue (not only with Musk but the entire administration).

    It will be very funny when one of them will break down in a very public place, or traps someone inside (government capture!) or does something similarly embarrassing.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,534

    Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    Yes, it does. Which is why we as Europe need to step up, benefit cuts and pension cuts to fund our national defence. Do it now.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,335
    Scott_xP said:

    @nickschifrin
    BREAKING:
    @SecDef walks back his statement yesterday that a negotiated settlement is not likely to end with Ukraine in @NATO: "These negotiations are led by @realDonaldTrump. Everything is on the table. In his conversations with Vladimir Putin and Zelensky, what he decides to allow or not allow, is at the purview of the leader of the free world--President Trump. So I'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what President Trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made."

    So difficult having a boss so erratic he makes a roulette wheel look predictable..
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687
    MaxPB said:

    Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    Yes, it does. Which is why we as Europe need to step up, benefit cuts and pension cuts to fund our national defence. Do it now.
    In which case inevitably Farage will win the next election and reverse it all.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The NHS is brilliant at keeping very ill people alive, and innovative in doing so. Just look at the fall in heart disease related deaths for men.

    This is incredibly expensive. It would better for those men not to get heart disease in the first place.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,791

    Same old story,

    Now German outlet Spiegel reports that he came to Germany at the end of 2016 and his asylum application was later rejected. He was then granted what has been translated as a "tolerance" permit, which means his deportation decision was suspended. Officials earlier said he was known to the police for theft and drug offences.

    Failed asylum, still not deported, is a known criminal, still not deported,...

    Don't worry, I'm sure his conversion to a Doctor or a nurse was just around the corner.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,103
    The thing that really pisses me off about Trump's cowardly betrayal of Ukraine is the whining about it from European politicians.

    Hello! Were you not paying attention for the last few years? If they'd pulled their fingers out of their arses and acted, then Europe wouldn't be in the position of being abandoned to Russian mercies.

    Even now, at this late hour, decisive action could shape reality in Europe and Ukraine's favour. But instead, the whining. If Europe wants a different future it will have to make a different future, not plead with others to make it for them.

    I thought the high-minded statements from Irish politicians were particularly egregious. If you want a say then put aside the neutrality nonsense and pay for a proper defence. Otherwise you would do well to stay silent.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687
    We have been in perpetual crisis for a decade and will be for the next.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,099

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687
    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    Scott_xP said:

    @nickschifrin
    BREAKING:
    @SecDef walks back his statement yesterday that a negotiated settlement is not likely to end with Ukraine in @NATO: "These negotiations are led by @realDonaldTrump. Everything is on the table. In his conversations with Vladimir Putin and Zelensky, what he decides to allow or not allow, is at the purview of the leader of the free world--President Trump. So I'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what President Trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made."

    What a load of crap.
    Trump was very clear; trying to spin it now is pitiful stuff. It might have worked for his Fox News viewers, but this is the real world.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,049
    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @nickschifrin
    BREAKING:
    @SecDef walks back his statement yesterday that a negotiated settlement is not likely to end with Ukraine in @NATO: "These negotiations are led by @realDonaldTrump. Everything is on the table. In his conversations with Vladimir Putin and Zelensky, what he decides to allow or not allow, is at the purview of the leader of the free world--President Trump. So I'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what President Trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made."

    So difficult having a boss so erratic he makes a roulette wheel look predictable..
    A roulette wheel is very predictable in the round, which is why casinos win.

    Trump is also predictable in the round, and everyone knows that (1) he likes to appear in control, and (2) Ukraine will not be admitted to Nato under Trump. Also (3) Nato means fuck all to Trump as an obligation.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    A lot of those increases in life expectancy, yes, are because of social and public health measures. (I would note that the NHS is still involved in some of those. The NHS has a significant role in smoking cessation programmes.)

    However, a lot of those increases in life expectancy are because of direct improvements in healthcare. We've seen huge improvements in cancer treatment (and screening), for example. https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/06/03/celebrating-60-years-of-progress/ says, "Although the UK didn’t start collecting detailed cancer statistics until the 1970s, the figures that we do have tell us that survival for some of the most common cancers – including breast and bowel cancers – has more than doubled since the early 50s, when the Registrar General stated that cancer killed nearly as many people in a single year as all the men who were killed during the six years of the Second World War." https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2023/01/cancer-survival-rates-are-improving has US data: "The overall cancer survival rate was 49 percent in the mid-1970s. It currently sits at 68 percent."

    Healthcare inflation has long been higher than regular inflation. That's partly about an ageing population. But it's also about how we constantly invent new ways to improve health. We can do more, there are way more tools in the medical toolbox, but that expansion costs money.

    We could re-focus our research efforts more on preventing ill health and tackling the costliest diseases, although we would still see new, expensive drugs being invented in other countries (notably the US). Pharmaceutical companies focus on drugs that will make them money and they're the ones who do most research on new drugs. You need something like Corbyn's plan to nationalise drug research to change that. Charity funding focuses on what the public wants, which is drugs to extend life, not low cost measures to keep people healthier in the long term.
  • Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    FPT...

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Possibly the best ever takedown of the US “Deep State”, vindication for what DOGE are doing, and confirmation that USAID was basically the CIA doing what the CIA were told not to do for the last couple of decades.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPc8OVNngg

    Warning: this video features Joe Rogan and Mike Benz, and is 202 minutes long.

    It turns out that Rory Stewart’s wife’s charity was also getting millions from USAID.
    Yes, that's how foreign aid often works. You give money to a charity to do charitable work.
    And it’s totally incidental that these charities appear to be vastly overpopulated with close relatives of the politicians involved in the funding decisions.

    There needs to be a British DOGE.
    Your anti corruption credentials will be sorely tested these coming years as a Trump and Musk supporter.
    I’m not a Trump supporter, but I’m absolutely a Musk supporter. Every Western country is going to have to deal with a line-item audit of their spending at some point.
    Musk doesn't work for the US government or US people, he works for Musk.
    No, he works directly for the elected President.
    You think?...
    I note State has just ordered $400m worth of Cybertrucks...
    Is the cybertruck order an instance of:-
    1. Elon grifting?
    2. the SoS currying favour?
    3. the deep state manufacturing a conflict of interest in order to recuse Musk?
    On (3), the White House has said that Musk will police his own conflicts of interest: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-05/white-house-says-musk-will-police-his-own-conflicts-of-interest

    That's credible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    edited February 13

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Assisted dying
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,103

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    It is, and would be, deeply depressing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    It is, and would be, deeply depressing.
    Why? Does the country not need radical reform? Yes

    Can the Tories or Labour do it? lol no

    Reform it is
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,099

    Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
    Am I the only person in the UK who had heard about obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception?

    I’ve always known I would not do well in prison so I have always engaged in the highest standards of probity.
    But Foxy's point is that she hadn't obtained a pecuniary advantage. This wasn't on a CV submitted to get a job, it's on a LinkedIn page when she has a job. Starmer didn't make her CoE because he was perusing the LinkedIn pages of all the Labour MPs and thought, "Oh, she's experienced."

    Which is why I think this story is less damaging than the other one. The other one suggests she was misusing an expenses account.
    'Starmer didn't make her CoE because he was perusing the LinkedIn pages of all the Labour MPs and thought, "Oh, she's experienced."'

    Do you actually know that? :wink:

    The expenses story sounds bad at the start then, towards the end of the story, they quote a few people who dispute that anything untoward was happening, including someone senior who claims they would have been informed if the investigation had found any wrongdoing.

    It's not a good look, but by the end of the story it all looked quite unsubstantiated. If it does turn out she was found to have done something wrong/dishonest then it's a big story.

    (The apparently permissible expenses things are a bit of an eye-opener for those of us in public sector or university, I think!)
  • pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    How much of this is true? Surely most very old people are thin and frail, not fat? Being overweight was, iirc, a risk factor for death with Covid; it was the fit, muscular types like Boris who recovered.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,103
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    It is, and would be, deeply depressing.
    Why? Does the country not need radical reform? Yes

    Can the Tories or Labour do it? lol no

    Reform it is
    In order to heal the patient it helps not to kill them first.

    Reform would only make things worse, more quickly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @nickschifrin
    BREAKING:
    @SecDef walks back his statement yesterday that a negotiated settlement is not likely to end with Ukraine in @NATO: "These negotiations are led by @realDonaldTrump. Everything is on the table. In his conversations with Vladimir Putin and Zelensky, what he decides to allow or not allow, is at the purview of the leader of the free world--President Trump. So I'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what President Trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made."

    What a load of crap.
    Trump was very clear; trying to spin it now is pitiful stuff. It might have worked for his Fox News viewers, but this is the real world.
    ‘We must make Nato great again,’ says Pete Hegseth.
    Your boss just trashed it, you arse.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,225
    Barnesian said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Assisted dying
    For some reason there's now a proposed amendment to exclude prisoners.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
  • Foxy said:

    It wasn't a CV that she submitted for any of her current roles though was it?

    It was just about bio on a Social Media networking site.

    It's not as if banking experience has ever been a requirement to be CoE. Many great Chancellors had no prior experience of finance, other than their own domestic ones.

    It’s about integrity. Lying on your CV is a no no.
    Lying would be claiming to have worked at the BOE when she hadn't. She has probably stretched the truth a little. And most have done similar.
    Am I the only person in the UK who had heard about obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception?

    I’ve always known I would not do well in prison so I have always engaged in the highest standards of probity.
    But Foxy's point is that she hadn't obtained a pecuniary advantage. This wasn't on a CV submitted to get a job, it's on a LinkedIn page when she has a job. Starmer didn't make her CoE because he was perusing the LinkedIn pages of all the Labour MPs and thought, "Oh, she's experienced."

    Which is why I think this story is less damaging than the other one. The other one suggests she was misusing an expenses account.
    Would agree on CoE, but would be interesting to see what she said when trying to become an MP. If the CV part of it has any real legs (beyond integrity) it would be in what she declared and said when she was trying to become a parliamentary candidate, getting the nominations. Did she embellish then to start her political career? Probably all lost.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    Some of us are trying, but putting in a cycle lane is met with intense opposition from the kind of sedentary person who is harming the NHS so much.

    That's why I think the model is unsustainable. Why should my taxes go to look after someone who doesn't look after themselves? Classic moral hazard problem.
  • Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
    Grand Coalition for Starmer there of Lab and Con to save Britain from Farage/Musk.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    Not to a stalwart Conservative, I'd have thought.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
  • Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
    Now extra spending for people to have better health in their forties, fifties and sixties seems reasonable.

    But once they reach their eighties and nineties ?

    The law of diminishing returns seems to apply.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
    Grand Coalition for Starmer there of Lab and Con to save Britain from Farage/Musk.

    Nah
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152

    Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
    By and large in medicine extending life in those with a poor quality of life is not the aim, generally it is palliative care at that point. We tend to only intervene if there is a reversible cause and some recovery of independence is possible.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167
    edited February 13

    The thing that really pisses me off about Trump's cowardly betrayal of Ukraine is the whining about it from European politicians.

    Hello! Were you not paying attention for the last few years? If they'd pulled their fingers out of their arses and acted, then Europe wouldn't be in the position of being abandoned to Russian mercies.

    Even now, at this late hour, decisive action could shape reality in Europe and Ukraine's favour. But instead, the whining. If Europe wants a different future it will have to make a different future, not plead with others to make it for them.

    I thought the high-minded statements from Irish politicians were particularly egregious. If you want a say then put aside the neutrality nonsense and pay for a proper defence. Otherwise you would do well to stay silent.

    Ireland is a freeloader. It hides under Britain's skirts, emerging only occasionally to contrast its saintly impotence with the beastly behaviour of its bloodthirsty neighbour. To a degree this is like the relationship between the US and the bulk of the rest of NATO that fails to pull its weight, but at least the allies make some effort. Ireland is richer per capita than we are but its feeble excuse for a defence establishment consists essentially of two brigades of light infantry that are used, if at all, as UN peacekeepers, and a fisheries protection force of six patrol boats and two aircraft.

    Ireland can get away with offloading its defence in this way and keeping the money because it's in our backyard. The United States, on the other hand, has the Atlantic Ocean for a moat so Trump can feel emboldened to tell Europe to look after itself.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776

    Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    I thought it was peace in our time.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181

    ‪Lewis Goodall‬ ‪@lewisgoodall.com‬
    ·
    6m
    Zelensky is being forced to plead with Trump that his own country, which has spent so much blood and endured so much horror, is allowed to be at the negotiating table about its own future. That's where we're at- a return of great power politics.

    Putin's best week in years.

    https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.com/post/3li35l6hxac2i
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,867
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    It is, and would be, deeply depressing.
    Why? Does the country not need radical reform? Yes

    Can the Tories or Labour do it? lol no

    Reform it is
    What puzzles me is this. Dear old Nigel, wheezing on his cigar, is no different now to how he's been for the last twenty years. So why is he suddenly regarded as the Second Coming when he never was previously? A dynamic young buck seizing the zeitgeist through sheer novelty factor I could understand. With Nigel it's like putting your faith in great uncle Fred.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
    Now extra spending for people to have better health in their forties, fifties and sixties seems reasonable.

    But once they reach their eighties and nineties ?

    The law of diminishing returns seems to apply.
    We could change the NICE rules for what the NHS considers cost effective to focus on years gained up to 69 more and on years gained 80+ less. But I wouldn't want to be the politician trying to push that through!
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    Would be interesting to put it in a graph next to mental health issues. My partner regularly prescribes Parkrun/Couch to 5k.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710
    edited February 13

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    I am 100% on board with promoting fitness as a political objective, and other preventative measures (smoking cessation, reducing alcohol consumption, improved diet).
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,335
    edited February 13
    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    It's actually considerably more complex than that. You're leaving out a number of other crucial factors in increasing healthcare costs. Firstly, healthcare is a very labour intensive industry - staff salaries are about half the budget, and wages over the long run have risen much faster than prices across the economy, especially in heavily unionised sectors such as healthcare. In most industries, productivity gains have outweighed wage increases. Secondly, it's a government-dominated industry, with the predictable disastrous consequences for productivity growth (not that insurance-based systems are notably better). Thirdly, that healthcare is provided free to all at the point of use incentivises its inefficient consumption. Fourth, politicians and the public think that the best way to appear caring is to shove more money at the health service and not give a damn about how well it's spent.

    Overall, given all the pressures and politicians' indifference to getting value for public money, it's actually amazing our expenditure on healthcare doesn't take up all our GDP.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710

    Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    I thought it was peace in our time.
    It is often misquoted as "in", but Chamberlain said "for".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    edited February 13

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    I once had a couple of brilliant charity ideas and took them to the Home Office and got pretty shirt shrift. Yo have to “know the right people” - cf Mrs Rory Stewart

    Eg my idea of “blind dogs for the guides” barely registered. Even tho I am sure it would succeed - these lonely blind puppies would be given to young girl guides to look after - win win

    And as for “Speedos for Pedos”, they basically escorted me out of the door - even though it would enable early detection of tumescence in undesirable types by the swimming pool
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,099
    edited February 13

    Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
    Treatments are loosely cost-capped (£20-£30k is it, per year of full health gained? So a treatment that adds half a quality adjusted life year would need to come in at £10-15k or less) for approval by NICE.

    'Emergency' care, including hospital admissions when there's nowhere else to go* are not, of course. Inpatient stays are expensive. I don't have figures to hand, but having better alternatives would make financial sense, I think.

    *My mum spent ~1/4 of the year before last hospital. Most of the time she didn't really need hospital care, as such, but it took several stays before an adequate home care package was put in place. All admissions were related to falls/blackouts, which didn't cause serious injury, but were judged to need investigating each time and then physio to prepare for going home, but a lack of available physio meant longer in hospital waiting for that to happen before discharge.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,710
    Eabhal said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    Would be interesting to put it in a graph next to mental health issues. My partner regularly prescribes Parkrun/Couch to 5k.
    Couch to 5k was developed by Public Health England. The former Conservative government abolished PHE and the new body that took over its functions, OHID, isn't allowed and doesn't have the capacity to create apps in the same way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    I thought it was peace in our time.
    It is often misquoted as "in", but Chamberlain said "for".
    Probably said "peace for a time..." which was true.
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    Not to a stalwart Conservative, I'd have thought.
    Not for most anyone
  • Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    I thought it was peace in our time.
    You thought wrong.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,795
    edited February 13
    In my opinion Reform’s support will crater in an actual campaign when they have to explain their policies on things like worker’s rights and the NHS. Especially if they look like they might win and will not be able to avoid explaining them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 13

    In my opinion Reform’s support will crater in an actual campaign when they have to explain their policies on things like worker’s rights and the NHS. Especially if they look like they might win and will not be able to avoid explaining them.

    Maybe they will just copy Labour's approach, say nothing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,554

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
    Grand Coalition for Starmer there of Lab and Con to save Britain from Farage/Musk.

    Are you not up to speed with the latest view of Starmer from the left?

    https://x.com/eff_hey/status/1889696556703502506

    Hard to avoid the sense that this awful bastard is just Enoch Powell-level racist on a personal level
  • pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    To me one of the most dismal things about covid was that the government made no attempt to encourage personal fitness and weight loss.
  • Ben Wallace: Trump’s Ukraine peace talks have echoes of Nazi appeasement

    Former defence secretary warns there could be repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace for our time’ moment


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/13/trump-ukraine-peace-talks-echoes-nazi-appeasement-wallace/

    I thought it was peace in our time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 13

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    To me one of the most dismal things about covid was that the government made no attempt to encourage personal fitness and weight loss.
    We had a very brief period where Boris was recovering from his COVID experience it was on the agenda, Joe Wicks was getting loads of publicity, that it was in the spotlight a bit and then the moment passed.

    Like so many things from during the COVID times, opportunities missed to do better for the long term.
  • So Reeves deceives and theives is the headline?

    I hope that's not too misogynistic
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    To me one of the most dismal things about covid was that the government made no attempt to encourage personal fitness and weight loss.
    Even golf was banned. Typically about one person per acre........
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633

    In my opinion Reform’s support will crater in an actual campaign when they have to explain their policies on things like worker’s rights and the NHS. Especially if they look like they might win and will not be able to avoid explaining them.

    They will never have to explain. Even if they did, their fans wouldn't hear it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 13

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealty and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    To me one of the most dismal things about covid was that the government made no attempt to encourage personal fitness and weight loss.
    Even golf was banned. Typically about one person per acre........
    I think the problem was that certain activities were banned because perception of those who undertaken them e.g. rich people getting to do things while poorer people stuck in their 1 bed flats. Didn't we have the whole thing about grouse shooting (or something similar) was banned even though again you were entirely outdoors and no need to be near anybody.

    Apparently the number of rounds of golf being played though is still up on before COVID....just a lot more during week times.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
    Grand Coalition for Starmer there of Lab and Con to save Britain from Farage/Musk.

    Are you not up to speed with the latest view of Starmer from the left?

    https://x.com/eff_hey/status/1889696556703502506

    Hard to avoid the sense that this awful bastard is just Enoch Powell-level racist on a personal level
    Not sure that makes a difference to the Grande Coalition?
  • Selebian said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    The increases in life expectancy through better health are partly behind the increased costs - fewer people dropping dead at work from heart attacks and many more with long term chronic conditions that cost money to treat. Against that cost, we have much increased life expectancy since the NHS was formed (I'm just using that as a time point, not implying causation) and - perhaps belatedly - have started increasing retirement ages so we'll have more economically productive years.

    On the question, I'm not sure whether you mean how much has improving healthcare (at greater cost - more drugs, more operable conditions etc) helped compared to more societal/public health things or specifically how much has the NHS helped compared to a continuation of the pre-NHS scenario. If the former, I'd say mostly public health efforts, since the widespread use of antibiotics.

    On the costs comparison with 1949/50 you have to consider that there were not only far fewer expensive drugs, but also that is before heart transplants or hip replacements etc.
    One of my grandads died in his fifties - he was a miner and his job destroyed his lungs,

    My other grandad died in his sixties - he was a smoker and fags destroyed his lungs.

    Not many former miners around now and far fewer smokers so that leads to a welcome increase in mid life health and overall life expectancy.

    And also an increase in late life medical requirements.

    But how much do people, let alone the country as a whole, benefit from such a high proportion of spending going on extending their lives by a few low quality months ?
    Now extra spending for people to have better health in their forties, fifties and sixties seems reasonable.

    But once they reach their eighties and nineties ?

    The law of diminishing returns seems to apply.
    Just think if this country was gifted an extra 6% of GDP per year.

    Draw up a list of all the things it might be spent on.

    How far down the list would sick oldies be ?

    Well they seem to be top of the list in government assumptions.

    And its not going to be a gift of 6% of GDP, it will have to be earned first.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167
    edited February 13

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealthy and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    It's yet another thing that's been parked in the too difficult column, not least because the most important element in getting the nation fit is improving its appalling diet and that would require a lot of unpopular nannying - in crude terms, state subsided fruit for the poor, paid for with punishing sin taxes on anything with high fat and sugar content, i.e. all the kinds of shit that people actually enjoy eating.

    You then need to back that up with much better access to cheap leisure facilities (which means giving local government the means to build leisure centres and pools all over the place, which in turn means solving the local government funding crisis, an expense that Westminster has zero interest in taking on,) and we also need to set a deadline for outlawing the sale of tobacco products and force the nation's remaining smokers to quit. This, obviously, would cause an immense tantrum amongst the remaining addicts and be manna from heaven for Farage.

    Now, on top of all of that you have to fix the NHS (and, by extension, the social care system without which you can't unbung the hospitals) so that people get timely treatment for ailments and don't end up growing increasingly sick and disabled whilst stuck on waiting lists. So you're back again to trying to find massive amounts of money, whilst somehow avoiding the biggest shitstorm ever by raiding assets and pensions to pay for it. And the country simultaneously has to shore up it's education system, its creaking infrastructure and rearm itself at the same time.

    Where do we even start?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    It is, and would be, deeply depressing.
    Why? Does the country not need radical reform? Yes

    Can the Tories or Labour do it? lol no

    Reform it is
    What puzzles me is this. Dear old Nigel, wheezing on his cigar, is no different now to how he's been for the last twenty years. So why is he suddenly regarded as the Second Coming when he never was previously? A dynamic young buck seizing the zeitgeist through sheer novelty factor I could understand. With Nigel it's like putting your faith in great uncle Fred.
    Evening Campers.

    Don't forget the Trump and twitter effect.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,099

    So Reeves deceives and theives is the headline?

    I hope that's not too misogynistic

    Don't think so. Although the spelling police will be paying a call :wink:

    I'm learning phonics (well, my children are; I'm picking some up) and I must admit I'm hard pressed to explain why it's deceives and thieves. Something something I before E except after C, I guess.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,181
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    I once had a couple of brilliant charity ideas and took them to the Home Office and got pretty shirt shrift. Yo have to “know the right people” - cf Mrs Rory Stewart

    Eg my idea of “blind dogs for the guides” barely registered. Even tho I am sure it would succeed - these lonely blind puppies would be given to young girl guides to look after - win win

    And as for “Speedos for Pedos”, they basically escorted me out of the door - even though it would enable early detection of tumescence in undesirable types by the swimming pool
    How did "Royal Society for the Protection of Birds by Cat Culling" go?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    Foss said:

    Barnesian said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Assisted dying
    For some reason there's now a proposed amendment to exclude prisoners.
    That's Danny Kruger. He's a vocal opponent of the Bill. He won't vote for it even if his amendment passes.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,099
    edited February 13

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Stats for lefties suggests

    Reform 333
    Labour. 88
    Lib Dens 78
    Conservative 68

    Now that would be hilarious !!!!
    BAXTERED

    Reform 276 (+271)
    Lab 139 (-273)
    Con 108 (-13)
    LD 59 (-13)
    SNP 40 (+31)
    Green 4 (=)
    PC 2 (-2)
    Others 4 (-1)

    Either way it’s a Reform government with an outright majority or assistance from the humiliated Tories
    Grand Coalition for Starmer there of Lab and Con to save Britain from Farage/Musk.

    Are you not up to speed with the latest view of Starmer from the left?

    https://x.com/eff_hey/status/1889696556703502506

    Hard to avoid the sense that this awful bastard is just Enoch Powell-level racist on a personal level
    Not sure that makes a difference to the Grande Coalition?
    Means Starmer more likely to team up with Reform than Con? :wink:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 13
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealthy and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    It's yet another thing that's been parked in the too difficult column, not least because the most important element in getting the nation fit is improving its appalling diet and that would require a lot of unpopular nannying - in crude terms, state subsided fruit for the poor, paid for with punishing sin taxes on anything with high fat and sugar content, i.e. all the shit that people actually enjoy eating.

    You then need to back that up with much better access to cheap leisure facilities (which means giving local government the means to build leisure centres and pools all over the place, which in turn means solving the local government funding crisis, an expense that Westminster has zero interest in taking on,) and we also need to set a deadline for outlawing the sale of tobacco products and force the nation's remaining smokers to quit. This, obviously, would cause an immense tantrum amongst the remaining addicts and be manna from heaven for Farage.

    Now, on top of all of that you have to fix the NHS (and, by extension, the social care system without which you can't unbung the hospitals) so that people get timely treatment for ailments and don't end up growing increasingly sick and disabled whilst stuck on waiting lists. So you're back again to trying to find massive amounts of money, whilst somehow avoiding the biggest shitstorm ever by raiding assets and pensions to pay for it. And the country simultaneously has to shore up it's education system, its creaking infrastructure and rearm itself at the same time.

    Where do we even start?
    We have been having this very expensive COVID inquiry that I am sure the headline will be Team Boris were bloody useless and that is why everybody died....when we know COVID was much worse if you were a fatty, the UK was very hard hit because of this, but I don't we are going to be asking those difficult questions, case offends the body positivity lot and all that bollocks.

    That been said the evidence for things like the sugar tax is very thin. It seems the much bigger impact on for instance kids getting less sugar was leaning on the manufacturers just to only make items with less sugar in the first place.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,687
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    In 'where is the money coming from' news the oldies and sickies seem to be protected into the dim and distant:

    In its central forecast, the OBR projected UK public healthcare spending will rise by around 3% every year, after adjusting for inflation. This would be broadly in line with average growth over recent decades, although the rate has fluctuated under different governments.

    The OBR estimates this trend would add up to roughly an extra 1% of GDP going on public health spending every decade going forward.

    That would take public health spending from around 8% of GDP in 2024-25, up to 14.5% of GDP by 2073-74, equivalent to around £180bn in today's money.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy7zvp5xrqo

    I'm curious as to how much the NHS has increased health and life expectancy as opposed to those caused by reductions in smoking, better housing, milder winters, changing work types and other improvements in public health.

    Because this looks like a ponzi scheme:

    Shortly after the NHS was founded, in 1949-50, total UK health spending was around £17bn in today's money.

    By 2023–24 it had grown to £226bn.


    About half of all healthcare spending goes on the over-65s. I don't have specific knowledge of how precisely that is broken down (one of our PB medics might venture an opinion) but I think the big "problem" is that medical science has become increasingly adept at keeping very frail, very old people with multiple complex medical problems alive for a long time.

    The other major issue is that most of the population is sedentary and fat. Abused lardy bodies with worn joints and clapped out cardiovascular systems = enormous expense.

    If you have an old and knackered population then you end up with an expensive and overburdened healthcare system. It's no more complex than that.
    Why not invest in fitness?
    We should absolutely invest in fitness. The problem is that investing in fitness will only have effects in the long-term. You don't see a life saved by it. You don't see waiting lists dropping.

    A friend used to work in charitable fundraising. She always joked that the most successful charity would be Kittens for Kids with Cancer. No-one wants to give money to Encouraging Regular People to Do More Exercise.
    Its a myth that it only has long term impacts. People get happier and more productive pretty quickly when they improve their fitness.
    You are right. I spoke poorly. They do get happier (and less depressed) and more productive pretty quickly. But they don't go from death's door to living an extra year, which is what many a "miracle" cancer drug has done.
    It is not just about one thing though.

    People are currently unhappy, unhealthy and the nation is economically unproductive. It feels quite mad that we don't talk about fitness as a political objective.
    It's yet another thing that's been parked in the too difficult column, not least because the most important element in getting the nation fit is improving its appalling diet and that would require a lot of unpopular nannying - in crude terms, state subsided fruit for the poor, paid for with punishing sin taxes on anything with high fat and sugar content, i.e. all the kinds of shit that people actually enjoy eating.

    You then need to back that up with much better access to cheap leisure facilities (which means giving local government the means to build leisure centres and pools all over the place, which in turn means solving the local government funding crisis, an expense that Westminster has zero interest in taking on,) and we also need to set a deadline for outlawing the sale of tobacco products and force the nation's remaining smokers to quit. This, obviously, would cause an immense tantrum amongst the remaining addicts and be manna from heaven for Farage.

    Now, on top of all of that you have to fix the NHS (and, by extension, the social care system without which you can't unbung the hospitals) so that people get timely treatment for ailments and don't end up growing increasingly sick and disabled whilst stuck on waiting lists. So you're back again to trying to find massive amounts of money, whilst somehow avoiding the biggest shitstorm ever by raiding assets and pensions to pay for it. And the country simultaneously has to shore up it's education system, its creaking infrastructure and rearm itself at the same time.

    Where do we even start?
    School. Free stuff for families who walk or cycle to school rather than drive. Teach cooking and nutrition from an early age. Some physical activity every day even if just a mile or two walk doing laps around the school.
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